Oxford Aviation Acadamy

[Ryan Bell]

I'm looking to go to go to Oxford aviation academy to do there integrated course. I'm currently in first year of college doing Advanced Aeronautical engineering, so wont be going to Oxford for another two years. I was just wondering how many people have went there to do that course, and is that much money actually worth it? I'm going to have to get a huge loan, and put the mortgage on my mothers house as security. Any information would be a big help to me,
Thanks.

[Whirlygig]

and is that much money actually worth it? There are many threads on this, including debates on integrated vs modular. IMHO, the upshot of those debates is, "Nope". :}

Cheers

Whirls

[redsnail]

My colleagues who went to Oxford seemed to enjoy their course.

My advice for what it's worth. Finish your degree and then work for a year or two. Save your money and get some life experience. While studying and working do a lot more research on your school choice. You'll be about 23-25 years old and you'll still have plenty of time for the aviation career.

If you're still happy with Oxford, by all means go there.

However, I would not risk your Mother's house on your flying dream if you're not prepared to contribute financially upfront.

[Groundloop]

I'm going to have to get a huge loan, and put the mortgage on my mothers house as security.

If you are quite happy to let your mother lose her house, go ahead. There is no guarantee that that could not happen. Do you really want to risk that?

[FlexGate]

Does it not bother you that you have to risk your mother's house to go through flight training that has no guarantee of a job after completion? You are only 16 and have practically your whole working life available for a career in aviation, so what is the rush? Like a poster said above me, finish your course, work for a few years and save quite a substantial amount of money that can go towards your flight training, where by you do not risk you mother's house as security. The job market is still a little uncertain, despite picking up in recent months. If you really are desperate for a career in aviation at such a young age, then apply for sponsorships or cadet ships when they are offered by the airlines. As some will pay for all of your training, others will pay around half of the cost, some through bonds, etc. This means that you are far more likely to secure employment with them as they would be reluctant not to employ you after investing so much money in your training.

Also, do not forget that the price that these Integrated Courses quote are usually based on minimum or close to minimum hours required for licence issue. It is not unheard of for people to require a few more hours additionally to complete their training which can come to a substantial surcharge.

In my opinion, unless the market for low houred pilots picks up substantially, I would personally go towards the modular route as you can gain the same licences for around around half the cost.

[student88]

I sense a troll.

[Superpilot]

Holy smokes!

What possesses a 16 yo to think of extreme amounts of debt to achieve a goal?

[mykul10]

+1 for modular route. You work as you learn and see how the market goes. Some say that there will be a shortage of pilots within 2-3 years so you could be good on timing.

As a trainer, I am having increasing difficulty in looking at would-be pilots and their parents in the eye and talking enthusiastically about it.

IF you got through the modular route for around £45k (that is IF) to CPL/IR level plsu CRM, you might then have to pay for a type rating before getting a job. IF you then were to get in as FO with one of the low-quality carriers (Ezy, Flybe, hopefully not with the mad Irishman) you might be earning £25k with debts of £50k. And that's best case scenario!

[redsnail]

low-quality carriers

A bit of thread drift here. By low quality, do you mean the training or the passenger experience?

[Janu]

I'd love to go to Oxford but there's no way on this planet my parents would risk their house to secure a loan for a pilots licence. Study hard and work even harder, once you've got enough money train via the modular route - you'll save yourself lots of money. Good luck!

[mykul10]

A bit of thread drift here. By low quality, do you mean the training or the passenger experience?

I'm talking from passenger experience mainly, but have heard many stories of mis-treatment of flight crew.

[Ryan Bell]

Probably heard it all before but its my dream, its what ive always wanted to do since i saw the first aircraft on approach going over my house. Im fascinated by flight and aircraft and am willing to do almost anything to get my dream. And to others who say I'm a troll, your wrong, this thread is deadly serious.

[Ryan Bell]

I don't even have my PPL yet, so I wouldn't be able to go and do the module. In all honesty I wouldn't have a clue what to do after I leave college. Ive had the mind set of OAA for so long that I haven't even took into consideration what other options there is.

[redsnail]

Well, Ryan , now you have a great opportunity to do some research. :ok:

By all means, if Oxford "does it for you" after you've researched other schools and methods of getting a licence, then go there. What ever you do, don't blindly accept the word of the school's salesmen. This applies to any school.
Remember, they want your money.

Post degree, get a job. It will be the best thing you do. Use your qualifications for a while, this will do a few things. Further your resolve to get a flying job and when you've got said flying job, you'll know what a "normal" job is like.
Also, you'll appreciate earning an income. So, just blithely saying you'll mortgage your Mother's house will now no longer make sense and you'll understand the risk involved.

Your Mother may not fully appreciate just how tough the industry is to get into and survive. At the moment, you probably don't either. That's ok, that's what being 16 is about.

[Whirlygig]

I don't even have my PPL yet, so I wouldn't be able to go and do the module.You may not believe this but you have plenty of time.

Research the two options, go and visit some flying schools (not just Oxford) with a parent, have a trial lesson and if you decide that modular is the better route, you have loads of time to get your PPL. Save, work, get A levels, more work and PPL by the time you're 18 or 19.

Of course we all understand the dream but that should not prevent you from researching the career, looking at the options and making rational decisions, not setting your heart on the first thing you see.

Cheers

Whirls

[rossj]

Hi Ryan,

I am currently studying at OAA, really enjoying it! If you want a chat drop me a message and I would be happy to answer any questions that you may have about the course! :ok:

Cheers

Ross

[james1013]

Get a job post degree and save some of the money towards your training (whatever route you take) then go half and half cash and loan (you need the financial commitment to help with the motivation)

Don't do what I did, which is wait until I earned every penny and then start, it meant I didn't start until I was 32 (at Oxford), I aced the course (high first time pass marks in the exams and a first time IR with 3.5 hrs seneca time to spare). None of that matters when you're 35 and looking for your first airline job in a recession. Everyone of my class mates now has a job, some better then me, most not as good but they avoided age discrimination.

p.s. all but 2 of them had to pay £25K-£35K for their job, add this into your budget.

But for every one of 'me' there's probably 15 twenty-something first officers with £100K debt, so it kinda works but you start off life with a "mortgage" but no house, i think that's a good thing?

p.p.s. Oxford don't discriminate, just show them the money and you're the man.

[AF_777]

You are still young dude! Best thing you can do right now is to finish your A levels in maths and physics (preferably) and then do a degree for 3 years (Bcom or engineering degree, or whatever suits you). Then work for some time and understand how hard it is to earn a living in this world and then you'll be in a position to make an educated choice as to what route is best for you. It's much better to keep the flying part for the end. Oxford will always be there and if not there will be others to replace them...

You have plenty of time to achieve your dream. Do some research about schools and take a few flying lesson if you can. How you feel about flying is the same for all of us but you have to be patient and not burn any steps on the way.

Keep an open mind and look at other career path that might suit you in the event you can't fly no more. As you are aware you have to do a class 1 medical every year and too many people seem to forget that if they loose this that's it... end of career for most pilots especially if you are still young with low hours, thus the importance to have a back up degree. Future employers would also prefer to see that they are employing someone that is educated and not just with an ATPL. Airline operations nowadays are more complex and pilots have to play an essential role in the financial savings that they make at the end of the year...

Much better to do the degree before the flying than the other way round or when you are facing the medical problem and have a family to support. Life is full of surprises and don't be stubborn into the idea or dream to be an airline pilot...It's stupid!! The way you see things at your age is a lot more pleasant than it really is once you have to work and support yourself, let alone a family.

And please, above all don't put your mum into this equation it wouldn't be fair on her to have you decide on her future...:ok:

[scoot43]

Hi mate,

I'm also currently studying at OAA, and although at the moment the industry isnt great, (although it seems about 300 times worse when you read vast array of negative posts on here) people are still being employed.

The biggest downside to this game is the financial implications involved; and if you do require a property to secure the means to fund your time here, then you are going to want to fully understand the implications that come with it.

If you want to talk just drop me a message and i'll get back to you.

[laakdown]

Im also at OAA right now. Most people here will say its great but a lot of the time that because theyve put up 70k+ upfront and so it has to be good otherwise theyve made a huge mistake.
Dont get me wrong it is a good school but its wrong to have the 'i only want to go to OAA' mindset because there is a lot more value for money at other schools and lots of my friends here really havnt been treated that great by the school. I think the main upside is that the integrated course is a good all in one package whereby you can do all your training at one place. Not worth the extra 20-30k though imo

[SupaMach]

Well i'm an OAA grad, and got myself a job within 2 months.. so I would say it is worth it.
Every school has downsides.

[Impress to inflate]

I was there in 1996 on there heli course, three job offers before I left. Good school, good instructors crap kitchen staff ! All the big airlines had cadets there when I went though.

Oxford has a good reputation in the industry

Just my 2 pence worth

ITI

[Mahdi Hass]

Im hopefully going to study Integrated ATPL(A) APP FIRST OFFICER course, in 2011. If anyone can tell me whether im provided with accommodation, services etc. Also once i graduate will it be easy getting a job and whats the pay like for new pilots in the commercial industry?

very much appreciate your vital help!!


Mahdi

[Reverserbucket]

Impress,

It was indeed a great school but sadly, things change and a good reputation cannot be sustained when standards and quality are diluted to the extent I fear they have been. Real pity in my view.

first officer modular integrated training course

What?!?!

[Mahdi Hass]

Integrated ATPL(A) APP FIRST OFFICER course

[redsnail]

Also once i graduate will it be easy getting a job and whats the pay like for new pilots in the commercial industry

No it won't be easy getting a flying job straight out of flying school.
You'll need to work very hard to "shine" at your school to be considered for any job. Other than that, you'll have to prove yourself for any job, just like every one else.

Pay? At the moment for new hires they are paying the company!
I believe some of the contracts being offered pay about £1000/month. Ridiculous money for a jet job. :mad:

Things change, hopefully it will get better but I would plan on it not improving for new hires in the UK.

[Mahdi Hass]

Really thats awful :mad:, besides im planning to live in dubai in the future so hopefully the pay is more

[SupaMach]

You want to choose where you work?
Then rule out the chances of getting a job!! :E

Right now, for that first job, you go where they need you.

And yeh, getting a job straight after training requires a lot of effort throughout the course to make your report stick out and get selected for internal recommendations.. or you just need a hell of a lot of luck and be able to prove yourself to all the other companies.

I was lucky and managed to get a job within 2 months.

Pay isn't necessarily 1000 / month. Depends on the company and the contract.

For example.. some of the recent grads.. on 50 / hour, so 60hrs x 50 = 3000. Plus standby pay, out of base pay, allowances etc. (company dependent..)

My friends are getting between 50 to 90 hours a month.
(Max yearly is 900, but who knows if we will fly that)

So.. perhaps around 35 a year.
Believe companies like ASW starting is more like 18.. others is more.. it all depends.
Factor in loan repayments though. If you need one.

It is a hard world out there in the market, and many of my good friends have yet to have a break, but things are picking up, and if you're lucky it can work out very nicely. But it is certainly not a sure thing.. in any state of economic climate!

[Mahdi Hass]

Thanks for your help, would it be easy getting the whole course fee on a loan ?

Also how does the routine work whilst studying at oxford sorry for all the questions its just I want to be well prepared once i begin


Mahdi

[SupaMach]

Depends on your situation.
But you need to remember that you will have large living expenses plus you may need to pay for a type rating.. so allow another 25 - 35k.

(before everyone starts bickering, I'm not saying it is the right or wrong thing to do, it is fact).


Routine all depends.
Groundschool is 5 days a week, 830 to 4:30 studying in class,
Get home and do another couple of hours and probs more at weekends.. for about 6 - 8 months.

Arizona, all depends on the instructor.
You'll spend a couple of hours prepping, couple of hours flying then a couple of hours backseating your flying partner. If you have an early morning flight, there is time to go get a tan by the pool, by it wears off.
You will fly 5 / 6 days a week and can't book leave.
You know when you are flying 2 days in advance.

The IR is similar.
But the flights are only announced at 14:00 the day before.
I ended up doing about one day of flying then one day off and so on. (so never really have 2 day weekends)
But again, depends on the instructor.
I found myself reading up / practising on the sims on days off though, which is a bit of a bore but it paid off for me and my flying partner in the end.

[Mahdi Hass]

Do they provide us with accommodation as I live in london and seems tricky travelling back and forth every week. Also what are you and your friends doing currently are you still training or have you started flying,

Also is it true you only need GSCE qualifications to become a pilot many people say you need to attend uni and get a degree ?


Thanks Again

Mahdi

[redsnail]

Mahdi, many of these questions you should be asking OAA after all you're paying them.

You do only need GCSEs (or equivalent) but unless you have something else to bring to the table, you'll need at minimum A levels simply because the competition is very tough.

[SupaMach]

Agree with the above.

And no they don't provide accom, other than in the USA.
I suggest you either ask OAA or look into all the info on the web, it is a lot of money at stake and you shouldn't go into to it without proper research!

I'm flying for a big European airline, as are a few of my friends.
A couple of others have been offered jobs with another well known, lo-co.

Most of the other guys on my course (3/4) haven't got jobs yet, and it's been about half a year since finishing.

[hollingworthp]

OAA do have over priced and poorish quality accommodation at Oxford airport and Heyford, but most people move out of that very quickly into a house share nearby

[norton2005]

Definately live offsite, as an oxford grad, I can tell you, the accomodation is way over priced and it is the biggest dump you've ever seen!!!!!

[Gyro Drift]

Yeah Langford isn't the best really, I agree that it's definitely over priced for what you get. I lived there for the whole duration of the groundschool phase, overall though I must say I enjoyed it! Most of my classmates were also living there so it was great to all get together at night and ask eachother questions. It was also highly sociable:).

Once back in the UK after the CPL phase in Arizona four of us got together and got a house in nearby Headington, definitely a lot cheaper!

GD

[max_continuous]

I am an OAA Grad (integrated, probably ill-timed, but that's for another day) and finished earlier this year. I do not intend to provide a complete review, which has been done to death, and wlll no doubt lead to OAA sales team coming back on and quoting the usual pitch again anyway, but just some general points.

1) OAA is a business, a big one, which grew much bigger throughout the course of my training and has, in my opinion, grown too big for its own good as far as ab initio training is concerned.
The company is a money-making venture and you absolutely must remember that.

2) OAA Accommodation is part of the money-making venture and therefore HUGELY overpriced and not especially good quality. I elected not to stay in it at all but spent enough time there to know I had made a wise decision. If you want a cooker then stay elsewhere; if you're happy with a two-plate plug-in hob and a microwave then knock yourself out.
Notwithstanding this the accomm staff are, by all accounts, some of the best on offer.

3) OAA Management...least said the better, quite frankly. Let's just say that they go to great lengths to make you feel like a "student... trainee pilot... graduate" and do not take kindly to being reminded that you are also a "customer" ... (I shall now have to wash my mouth out, bad, bad word)

4) Groundschool...pretty much spot on, if you match the tuition you are given with a mature, dedicated approach and put the work in yourself as well. The instrcutors are committed and generally very knowledgeable. If you are not ex-forces then you may get a bit fed up of all the "in-chat" but it's bearable. CBT was growing in popularity, seems to be an industry-wide thing so just accept it but personally I absolutely can not stand it.

5) Arizona Flying...great fun, absolutely loved it. Make sure you get yourself sorted out on a personal and professional level with your instructor early on. Make it clear how much experience you have and how you would like to be taught. I do not suggest making demands but having a mature and sensible conversation. Whatever you do speak up at all times, do not just go along for the ride and if it's not working out then get it dealt with. There were some less-approachable staff (instructors and non-intructors) but mostly they were great. Flying solo keep your wits about you and NEVER stop looking around you, there are a lot of planes in the valley...
Only gripe --- maintenance could be better, especially on senecas, but that may well have been rectified by now

6) Instrument flying... everything above with extra emphasis. My personal opinion is that there is always something you can be doing. I was in the airport nearly every day for a solid 5 or 6 hours studying, planning and reading everything I cold get my hands on and I still felt like I hadn't a clue. Others turn up, fly/sim, go home, do some planning for a hour or so and seem to get by. I would suggest that if you are not nervous and feel that you know what you need to know you are not working enough but that's maybe just me. Even with a first time pass on the IR you should, in my opinion, be accutely aware of the fact that you know almost nothing about instrument flying in the real world.

7) MCC...great fun if a bit short. I was with someone I knew and with whom I could work almost without speaking (although that's very much not the point of the MCC). I still believe you should be putting the work in to every session although there is more emphasis on your instructor briefing you in this phase. Coming soon after IR it tends to get a bit of a last-hoorah reputation which is a shame because it's actually a pretty good exercise

8) Getting a job afterwards...

Right, this is the bit I guess everyone wants to hear. I am saying this now and afterwards donning my tin-hat and taking cover:

If you expect OAA to find you a job you will be disappointed and you are most likely a bit dim; if you expect them to help you look for a job, recommend you for a job and prepare you for any subsequent interview you are still likely to be disappointed but perhaps marginally less so.

Why do I say this... well...

I started the training under no illusions as to what was waiting on the other side i.e. not a great deal (again, different discussion about timing).

Since leaving OAA I have found a sort-of relevant job albeit not flying much, OAA has nothing to do with this and I have no problem with that, I needed to go back to work and always planned to either in my old job or something relevant.

If you try to express the opinion to OAA that you don't believe in P2F or, even worse, that you feel that as a newly qualified pilot you are perhaps, dare I say this even after training with them, not ready to for a jet or even maybe airline job you will probably just have committed employment suicide no matter how much you might be able to get experienced pilots to agree with you. Some may say that this is nonsense and point to the usual examples; some will say that perhaps it's a lack of confidence; some might just accuse me of trying to be too sensible.

In my opinion OAA have become absolutely dedicated to P2F with Ryanair and Easy to the point where you will be (almost) dismissed if you do not opt for one or both. This is pretty much seen as the reality of the wold now, and maybe it is, that's another debate, but my point is that the approach seems to be completely blinkered. One other interesting example that has been offered recently was to take up employment with OAA as an FI in Melbourne, sounds intersting you might think, well it is, until you find out that for the costs involved you'll see change from Ryanair! Absolutely no joke (well, on my part at least..)

Final point, there are still, very occasionally and at very, very short notice opportunities which come up through OAA which do not involve the level of investment you will need for Ryanair or Easy but will involve some investment or some kind of sacrifice... How do you get these, well, honestly, I am buggered if I know. I have tried and I have failed each time (and I thought I was pretty good by OAA standards although do try to recognise my own faults). I have asked how they select people and received no answer other than competition is tough and that it's my job after training to keep in touch with them for job opportunities etc. I suspect politics plays a large part in this process but maybe I'm just a bit fed up and cynical.

Bottom line (in my opinion) ... Oxford is mostly a good training establishment buried under the weight of a growing business and if you arm yourself with some knowledge and bit of common sense you should be fine on their course. As for afterwards well, frankly, there's a queue, join it, and pray you haven't missed the bus ... or get the cheque-book out (again).

Just my tuppence worth, and now I am off to send out some more copies of my CV before asking in my evening prayers for the fortitude to continue the struggle and not cave in to temptation. I wish everyone well whatever you choose.

*Bit longer than expected and now ducking for cover.

[norton2005]

Great post max continous, I am an oxford grad and can say I agree with everything in your post entirely, especially the "getting a job" part. The sad truth is that after your final JOC lesson, you have spent all your money so theres no need to be as friendly as before. So you may go in to the school to keep up appearances, but don't expect the same treatment. Lets put it this way, if you owned a restaurant, and you had a customer come in and sit down and not actually buy anything, would you be nice to him?

[sir fizzy]

i have done a bit of research on OAA because i want to go there in a couple of years aswell. Although they are asking for an unholy amount of money, it does pay off in the long run because OAA is the only training company that provides post training employment scheme with british airways, in other words they will arrange for you to have an interview. Also OAA is looked upon as the Best flight school in the world. so airlines will be impressed you trained at OAA - you pay for the name as well as the training. Airlines would rather take on a newby from OAA than one who trained at a lower quality flight school given the choice between the two. :\

[redsnail]

Sir Fizzy, I suspect you may be a troll, if not, at 15 you have a long way to go before you'll be knocking at any employers door.

At the moment, BA are only recruiting pilots with 500 hours or more on the Airbus series or the Boeing series of aircraft. Sort of blows the "BA recruits from Oxford" theory out of the water doesn't it?

I would read max_continuous post again. In fact, print it out and study it.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Also OAA is looked upon as the Best flight school in the world.

Erm...really?

[norton2005]

Sir fizzy, the BA thing died out quite a while ago!!! And to qualify for any of the other schemes that happen every now and again, you have to have a near perfect final report, otherwise you won't stand a chance. So going to oxford based purely on how oxford can help you when you finish is very unwise! Also timing plays a part, all the guys that finished in the heat of the recession are being bypassed for schemes for the newer fresher graduates. So a bit of luck will always come into these things.

[sir fizzy]

thats not what oaa's skills protection plan says

[sir fizzy]

or you could fly fast jets for the military for 5 years and gain the 500+ hours you need for work at B.A

[max_continuous]

Thank you all for beating me to the reply, I was fratically checking every folder of every email account I possess for the contract from BA, I must have deleted it...darn...

As for BACF I'm not holding my breath, either.

I suspect that many OAA Grads live in the desperate hope that SSP might make a reappearance, personally I'm too busy trying to get on with my life and minimise the amount of time I spend dreaming (although five minutes never hurt, did it...?).

[Lord Spandex Masher]

or you could fly fast jets for the military for 5 years and gain the 500+ hours you need for work at B.A

Is that the new length of the short service commission then?

At 7 hours a month how long would it really take, even if you ignore leave and ground tours?

Do you think that is all that is required to get a job at BA?

[Whirlygig]

thats not what oaa's skills protection plan saysIn the words of Mandy Rice-Davies ... "they would say that, wouldn't they?"

Cheers

Whirls

[hollingworthp]

The last interviews of OAA pre-grads for BA would have been just under 2.5 years ago - some of them made it to the hold pool - not that that helped much.

As redsnail says - troll.

[Ryan Bell]

Well, It's been a while since I started this thread and it seems it has gained a lot of interest. I've done much more research and had to think rationally about the situation. I've been speaking to one of my friends who was actually the youngest F/O in the United Kingdom at one point. He used the CTC Wings cadet program (which I know is kind of frowned upon by those old school pilots). The actually program looks very attractive in my eye, which is the reason I have applied to start the course. Although you may say "It's a wast of money to throw yourself into a course, get less than average training, be put in a holding pool for over a year then be thrown into a budget airline position which is most likely going to be EasyJet."

Well at this present time I'd be happy to take any position within any reasonable airline. If I am successful through out all the stages, well that's great - goal accomplished. If not, it's only the beginning of a journey to get to where I want to be. I've grew out of the mind set of "if I don't get that it's the end of the world", which was a terrible attitude to have when I looked back at it.

- Ryan.

[Halfwayback]

This thread has run its course after almost a year. There are some more up to date threads so this one is closed

HWB