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divingduck
20th Oct 2010, 16:52
Air controller 'fatigue threat' | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/air-controller-fatigue-threat/story-e6frg6nf-1225941414693)

So, perhaps all the staffing departures, from TOPS in particular, are starting to make a difference.

blind freddy
20th Oct 2010, 19:28
Its only getting worse.
The exodus of staff is starting to really bite, with no replacements on the horiizon.
The Learning Academy is a farce, they havent churned out more than a dozen trainees into the field this year. This doesn't cover the sand pit "transfers", let alone retirements.

Start dusting off you TIBA procedures.

And its not even close to renegotiating the agreement....

Jack Ranga
20th Oct 2010, 20:36
Yes, in breaking news it has been revealed that two first names has realised that ATC has an age profile problem :D Yes, 8 years after being told that ATC had an impending age profile problem, he and his ATC hating minions in clown castle have realised there is an age profile problem :D

As for the other staffing issues, 8 years after being told there is a staffing problem in ATC..........................

Jabawocky
20th Oct 2010, 23:10
Start dusting off you TIBA procedures.



Is it time for a repost of THAT MAP for the newbies and younger generations benefit.......I'll have it some where :confused:

J:E

idb
23rd Oct 2010, 11:05
AsA management are busting their a*#ses to prevent "contingency procedures" (TIBA) from being implemented.

Now.

Give it 12 mths when negotiations begin for the next EBA and just watch the number of TIBA's that are "allowed" to occur by management as those renagade controllers begin their campaign of industrial saboatge. :=

If only the industry and the flying public realised the number of times airspace closures have been averted by the dedication and commitment of coalface controllers that bendover backwards to ensure "service continuity". How often do we see a press release about the number of controllers that reorganise their lives at short notice to ensure that the flying public enjoys the level of safety they should expect from a first world ATC provider?
But should controllers legitimately exercise their obligations not to work under the affects of fatigue or sickness that occassionally creates a situation where there are no viable replacements available because the roster pool has been slashed to the absolute minimum and the result is TIBA or significant disruptions at major hubs, then watch the witch hunt and the negative publicity against controllers fly.

Beware, AsA is running on the smell of an oily rag and there is nothing left in the tank.

flightfocus
23rd Oct 2010, 15:43
Beware, AsA is running on the smell of an oily rag and there is nothing left in the tank.

Hush your potty mouth - that is a Worlds Best Practice, award winning, employer of choice's, increasingly engaged staff's best oily rag you are referring to! :yuk:

ASA - Voted itself Australia's favourite Air Traffic Control provider for the 7th year in a row! :eek:

Ex FSO GRIFFO
23rd Oct 2010, 16:29
RE.." controllers that bendover backwards to ensure "service continuity"...

Not to mention - at all - those others who bend over frontwards - seemingly to enhance their own 'little, small minded position' in the 'heirarchy'.....

To the Workers - well done guys and gals!!!
To the Wa*#ers - well.....wot can one say......except, go forth.......

Bah Humbug!!:eek::eek:

Pavement
23rd Oct 2010, 23:23
All those who stood up and said there was a staffing problem were moved on and some just saw how toxic the management was behaving and left.

It is a 'broken' system if overtime is required to keep it running. ATCs like anyone else deserve their downtime - not being constantly harrassed to come in to work.

Bullying, blacklists, using fear as a management tool - it is scary how similar the organisation is to a facist regime.

If the monumental waste of money on 'business development' activities (lets talk GRAS/GBAS/etc) had been diverted to staffing and domestic technology we would not be having this discussion.

Will it change? Of course not. The minister and chairman have spent too much time backing what is occurring.

peuce
23rd Oct 2010, 23:32
If only the industry and the flying public realised the number of times airspace closures have been averted by the dedication and commitment of coalface controllers that bendover backwards to ensure "service continuity"

Talk about pilots being their own worst enemy...

As much as I appreciate you keeping my flight in the air, as long as you continue to bust a gut (and chance fatigue and error) to artificially keep the system working ... there will be no change to the system. :ugh:

Bell_Flyer
25th Oct 2010, 03:06
Is it possible to have some of YSRI (Richmond NSW) mil controllers take over some civvy duties as a secondment? They (YSRI) are active every weekend to manage a very tiny amount of traffic? It'd be good industry experience for them (mil guys) and provide some breaks for civvy guys. Just a thought.

blind freddy
25th Oct 2010, 10:27
Ha Ha Ha Blue shirts separating traffic. Now that is funny!

Bell_Flyer
25th Oct 2010, 11:52
Why is it funny? You don't think they are competent?

willadvise
25th Oct 2010, 12:13
Bell-Flyer,
Blind Freddy was having a friendly joke with our RAAF counterparts.
The real answer to question is that it is not that simple. To train a qualified RAAF controller onto a civil position would take approx 6-12 months. ASA takes as many ex RAAF controllers as they can but the RAAF are not keen to give them up as they are always struggling to keep their numbers. The RAAF wouldn't release them on secondment to ASA as ASA would poach them ASAP. ASA also wouldn't want to use up a valuable and limited training slot unless they are going to get a full time controller.

Jabawocky
25th Oct 2010, 12:14
its not that..........

They are not trained and kept current in the various sectors and roles that you think they could be usefull in.

I am no expert on all things ATC.....in fact know bugger all, but its fair to say you cannot drag a guy or girl out of the tower in Richmond and do say BN or SY APP just like that.

Just can't drag you out of your Bell fling wing and into a B747 at the drop of a hat if you get the idea.

Nice thought though.

ferris
25th Oct 2010, 12:52
It's a concept that managers struggle with, as well.

Controllers learn to work a sector (several sectors, in fact). However, EVERY sector is different, and just because you can work one sector, does not automatically mean you can work another (and that is not even taking up the issue of different roles- app/tower/enroute). The analogy for helicopters and 747s is apt.

It would be a managers wet dream to have sectors, or control positions, that are generic. Never, ever going to happen. (Some managers refuse to acknowledge that fact, bless them ;-) ).

Worrals in the wilds
25th Oct 2010, 12:59
My understanding is that even a fully trained ASA controller takes 12 months to be fully trained in a new port/position. This is not an area where you can apply the quick fix bandaid solutions that are all the modern manager is capable of, in aviation or other industries.

Across Australian business, crisis management and crossed fingers have kept a lot of morons in new Mercedes and most of the time they get away with it, but you can't just 'strategize for new paradigms or whatever's trendy this week' :yuk: and supply a ready number of ATCs for a given position overnight, no matter how many 'incentives' you offer and how much you stamp your little Ferragamos.

gobbledock
25th Oct 2010, 13:33
RE.." controllers that bendover backwards to ensure "service continuity"...
Not to mention - at all - those others who bend over frontwards - seemingly to enhance their own 'little, small minded position' in the 'heirarchy'.....

All those who stood up and said there was a staffing problem were moved on and some just saw how toxic the management was behaving and left.

Bullying, blacklists, using fear as a management tool - it is scary how similar the organisation is to a facist regime.

This is CASA to a tee !!!!!! When did we switch threads ?

Bell_Flyer
25th Oct 2010, 20:16
Thanks for enlightening me; I didn't know. I only suggested it because I deal almost daily with Richmond controllers and they seem downright bored out of their brains with the tiny bona fide mil traffic they have to deal with.

severidian
25th Oct 2010, 23:24
RI APP is provided by civilian staff within the Sydney TCU

undervaluedATC
26th Oct 2010, 10:11
The CEO once complained to a Senate hearing that it takes 2 years to train an ATC, but they only have to give 2 weeks notice

^^ maybe he should remember that when dealing with us
(forcing a 5 yr bond on the new people is not a solution - it often takes nearly that long to make them the equivalent of the Full performance controller who does only need to give 2 weeks notice)

Baileys
26th Oct 2010, 15:00
These 'staff shortages' have been going on for years - it must be 7 years at least.

If controllers are doing enough overtime to keep things ticking over for the past 7 years (with the odd TIBA) it would seem that maybe there are only staff shortages in some peoples eyes.

Maybe the system is working just how management want it to. If people are willing to waste their lives doing overtime - who cares let them do it. That is the system and many Aussie ATC's think the overtime is just fine.

Here to Help
26th Oct 2010, 19:02
Baileys,

The system is not being held together just by overtime. There have been a number of policies put in place in the last couple of years, without which would have caused an airspace closure or a NOTAM issued identifying possible delays and restrictions.

Closures have been minimised through the "Short Break Procedure" where a controller may leave the operational position, to go to the toilet or eat something, as long as they leave written instructions for an unqualified person (usually a supervisor) to hold the fort until their return, and not to do anything outside of those instructions. The controller generally needs to pick a time where there is little chance of something happening. CASA has approved this. Previously, a NOTAM would be issued notifying TIBA for the period of the break, and all would be known by all parties well in advance.

Traffic management (delays, restrictions) still occur but instead of NOTAMing delays and restrictions due staff shortage or "staff availability", traffic is diverted or slowed down without any NOTAM or reason give. The practice of controllers who transmit the reasons for the delays (lack of staff) is frowned upon.

Other ways to avoid closures is to "reinterpret" the minimum time off between shifts, and acquittal hours due fatigue issues, thus maximising coverage where previously coverage wasn't possible.

Hempy
27th Oct 2010, 01:06
HtH,

All those points are valid to a degree, but honestly how long would the system last if every ATC stopped taking AD's/OT?

Roger Sir
27th Oct 2010, 01:15
All those points are valid to a degree, but honestly how long would the system last if every ATC stopped taking AD's/OT?


A matter of days i`d say for some Towers/TMA`s/Groups

Must go, 'private number' is calling.....:ugh:

Cookie7
27th Oct 2010, 07:50
Must go, 'private number' is calling.....


So, was it a case of ignore, accept going back into work or ponder? :ok:

Baileys
27th Oct 2010, 09:04
Hempy,

Exactly - Australian ATC's are their own worst enemy. Find some solidarity before you start complaining again.

The Chaser
27th Oct 2010, 11:07
Seeing as polls are the flavour of the minute:-

Mods, how about the following poll:-

If ATC stop AD/ED to cover essential services:-

Options for Pilots:-

1. Will you whine when you are held on the bay or elsewhere?
2. Will you cheer, and tell the punters in the tube behind you why it is so?
3. Will you blame ATC (to the punters down the back) for the delay, like so many Aircrew do, irrespective of why the late departure?
4. Will you shut the f$%k up and say nothing for fear of airline management reprisal?

Let's not be shy with responses eh .... there are numerous ATC's travelling every day listening to the PA's!

Jabawocky
27th Oct 2010, 11:26
They should tell the Truth..............


Ladies and gentlemen, this is Captain Bloggs(:}) speaking, thank you for flying #### today, we would like to tell you we are pushing back on time, however due to ATC staff shortages there are delays which are unavoidable for now and the next 18 months or longer until the ASA management employ suuficient ATCers to provide the services that our airline and you the passengers pay for. If you feel somewhat disadvantaged, and we as an airline do as it costs us $millions, we would encourage you to write to the CEO of ASA with copies to the minister and your local federal member.

If you would like some material for your letters please visit pprune dot org D&G for suggestions.

And thank you for flying Q/V/J/T

mrtwister
27th Oct 2010, 21:04
I for one just finished 54 weeks of ATC training at the Academy and I am glad to inform you that 5 students in my course have passed into field training. I, unfortunately, am not one of them. Despite being told that I was in the 'top half' of the group. Despite only ever really having one instructor sit between 2 trainees for the final 3 weeks of training. Despite having instructor feedback that always said, "busy run handled well". It seems that it is imperative to 'learn your airspace' and to 'account for aircraft performance' so that you are not giving requirements to aircraft that are:
a) not possible
b) so far inside aircraft profile performance that it would seem ridiculous.
Oh, but here's the catch. Don't do it in an exam, because then you are deemed NOT SUITABLE FOR FIELD TRAINING.
May sound like sour grapes, not really. More :mad: angry at the fact that after all the sacrifices, all the development, having demonstrated day in, day out that I COULD do this job, I am now heaved out the door with 2 weeks pay, on the dole, with a family of 5 to feed, despite no aircraft getting anywhere near each other.
But, hey, they're the experts.

Jack Ranga
27th Oct 2010, 22:33
Mr Twister,

Where have you demonstrated 'day in day out' that you could 'do the job'? In the training college?

Were you guaranteed a job at the end of your training or subject to achieving all milestones?

If you'd done a bit of research prior to entering the college you may have not taken the risk you did.

Choices mate & the Golden Rule.

Having said that, if the bank teller training expert had been subject to ANY KPI's that happen in the real world, things may have been done years ago to rectify the situation Mr Twister describes.

Jack Ranga
27th Oct 2010, 22:35
Chaser, last flight I took No.3 was quoted.

mrtwister
27th Oct 2010, 23:12
To retort,
I demonstrated day in, day out, that I could complete the runs with no issues recognised or referred to by the instructors which suggests I was not experiencing any ongoing areas of concern. I can't demonstrate competency in a job I haven't experienced yet. All I could do was perform at a level relevant to the program presented to me.
Secondly, no a job was not guaranteed, milestone completion was required. Having said that, our contract included DTI, Non radar and Radar milestones. No mention of Combined Ops which was added to the official assessment in the meantime.
Thirdly, I did my research, the Academy commitment was apparently 42 weeks which then, upon satisfactory completion, progressed to a significant payrise in Field training. However, half way through training, the structure was changed which blew our time in the Academy to about 54 weeks. I had calculated (financially) for a 42 week drop in pay, the extra 3 months was a killer. Having been told I was progressing well, I resigned from my job to cash in on leave entitlements so we could financially survive the extra Academy time.
So, yes, that was a bad move as no job was guaranteed but it was not a result of poor planning or lack of research.
Not having a go Jack, just a little disappointed and bewildered.:\

peuce
27th Oct 2010, 23:49
Mr Twister,

Unfortunately, your experience falls within the "ASA works in mysterious ways ... expect the unexpected" mission statement.

You have obviously done your best ... they just weren't that into you.

However, I daresay you've learnt a lot and are better off for the experience. It's time to exercise your newfound skills , knowledge and abilities in a new endeavour.

Good luck, in whatever it turns out to be.

Jack Ranga
28th Oct 2010, 02:58
Mr Twister,

Sounds like grounds for appeal :ok:

mrtwister
28th Oct 2010, 04:05
Have exhausted that avenue. There will be no "rage against the machine" here. If they are as short staffed as people say and they are willing to cut people loose after proving their worth for the best part of 54 weeks, so be it. Life goes on. I just hope they get some results from those that got through to field training.

UnderneathTheRadar
28th Oct 2010, 04:10
In your assessment of legal options have you considered:

S28 of the Trade Practices Act - Deceptive & Misleading conduct; or
The new consumer protection rules about unfair contracts?

S28 of the TPA would be a very good way to go.....

UTR

coneyisland
28th Oct 2010, 05:20
Another college failure who can't conceive that they just couldn't do the job. Blame everything else. Cry me a river please. You need to just face up to the fact that you obviously were not up to scratch. As you yourself stated, we need controllers desperately - what with all the impending retirements and departures to other ANSP's - so do you really think that AsA would knock you back and show you the door if they thought you were capable? After all THEIR time and money invested over the duration. Seriously, reality check please.
For the record, I went through the college a couple of years ago (will not specify exactly when as I wish to remain anonymous) and have been endorsed for quite some time now. Let's be perfectly blunt, if you know what you are doing then the college phase is pretty bloody easy. I know many will disagree, but the egocentric people this job attracts unfortunately like to make mountains out of molehills; blow their own trumpet etc. It is not that hard seriously. Final field training, as thankfully you WON'T discover, is a big step up my friend. Clearly the people that actually know what they're on about!!!! assessed you as not being up to the mark. Move on :)
Also, I do sympathise with you in regards to having your course extended for an extra 12 weeks, with a family of five that is completely ridiculous and you deserve (and should pursue) some sort of compensation.

ferris
28th Oct 2010, 08:06
mrtwister:
Obviously you are hurting. However, it doesn't matter what was in your contract- that isn't the point. The academy is only part of the way to 'being able to do the job'. The combined ops change was a good thing, IMHO, reflecting a more realistic look at real ATC, both from the students perspective, and from an assessment perspective. Being able to pass modules in the academy is not going to guarantee you will pass field training, and combined ops was added after feedback and criticism from the field. It pulls some threads together. Previously, lots of trainees who passed the academy were getting chopped in field training. So, in all likelihood, YOU would have been in that boat (based on the hurdle you fell at). And that would've been even more traumatic- more time wasted, feeling closer to finishing etc.
That being said, you were given an insight into an extremely toxic organisation, so maybe you dodged a bullet? The changes to your course timings etc. was only a taste of what goes on. That anyone leaves one of the best jobs points to what a poor employer AsA is, let alone in the numbers they do. It is also one of the reasons for this thread (staff shortage)
I wish you all the best with whatever you do from here.

Plazbot
28th Oct 2010, 08:27
Another 3 Australians started in the Pit last month with two more being told to stand by for a start date. No staff shortages here. Apparently getting a pay rise next month. Was to be announced tonight at a big shin dig at the Address Hotel in the D-Town Marina but the RAK Ruler passed away so mournng period had the event cancelled.

They want another 30 bodies by mid next year is my mail for a resectorisation and expansion program. Keep an eye on flight global :ok:

Ex FSO GRIFFO
28th Oct 2010, 08:57
Mr Chaser, you may have forgotten no 5......

Sometimes there's just no need to 'tell the punters' anything....

'All stns this is shittybags 11, rolling Rwy 16 for dep to the south, climbing to ...'
It may not work at a 'primary' airport, but there are some places where it could be done...and it has been ....as you know I suspect....
:eek::eek:

Cheers :ok:

le Pingouin
28th Oct 2010, 13:03
Twister, I'm sorry to hear of your situation but welcome to the world of ATC (in Australia at least). You're only as good as your last shift or check (in particular). Maybe an exaggeration but not a huge one. For better or worse that's what exams are about, perform or not.

Have to agree with ferris that the combined ops assessment is a step forward. But one instructor between two trainees is totally shite.

mikk_13
28th Oct 2010, 15:45
The atc. College is a Basket case. You were warned in the atc forum many times.

ollie_a
28th Oct 2010, 23:22
I have to disagree with coneyisland, for me the college phase was tough tough tough. I'm glad they didn't do combined ops when I went through, because I would really have struggled.

However for me the final field training was relatively straightforward in comparison. It must depend on where you get posted.

peuce
28th Oct 2010, 23:35
Let's be perfectly blunt, if you know what you are doing then the college phase is pretty bloody easy. I know many will disagree, but the egocentric people this job attracts unfortunately like to make mountains out of molehills; blow their own trumpet etc. It is not that hard seriously.

It kind of says it all. And it's very easy to be smug on the other side. I was going to suggest that ... that attitude won't get you too far in your career ... but then I thought about it again.

The Chaser
28th Oct 2010, 23:40
Mr Griffo
'All stns this is shittybags 11, rolling Rwy 16 for dep to the south, climbing to ...'
It may not work at a 'primary' airport, but there are some places where it could be done...and it has been
Right up until two get a little close for media comfort ......... then BAM, in comes four eyes, an election, and political appeasement .... Voila

.... 24/7 remote surveillance approach services with less safe class E :D

Cost effective - bzzzz fail
Safer - bzzzz fail
More efficient - bzzzz fail

.. and the real kicker

What will that airspace become if the service is not available? - TIBA and, as per other TMA's, likely to be - a Restricted Area during for traffic metering

Yes, all in all a great idea when ATC's (that can hold endorsements) are becoming as rare as rocking horse poo :hmm:

Airspace management brought to you by four eyes on a soap box!

Funny thing is, this exercise proves the theory. It does not matter what the issue, as long as there is perceived to be an issue in need of fixing, four eyes will argue 'a' case, even if it is inconsistent and nonsensical! ;)

But hey, its no skin off our noses :ok:

Blockla
29th Oct 2010, 09:16
I highly doubt you'll find many controllers doing crazy hours to 'prop up the system' in favor to ASA, more likely for their own back pocket. There are significant numbers who work overtime to ensure airspace doesn't go TIBA, additionally they come in to ensure their mates aren't stranded alone on a console without assistance. I'd put both of those motivations above the individual financial one or as favour to ASA (which doesn't exist due to the vexatious employment relationship).

Despite what many project (especially ASA managers), most ATCs are highly dedicated and professional; they are unfortunately their own worst enemies (from an industrial point of view). There was some 100,000+ hours of overtime last financial year across the ATC group, spread that out over the operational workforce of around 800 and it's a sh!tload each. The vast majority of overtime was not due to sickleave, it was due to short staffing.

I can see the Press release(s) if there is even a hint of industrial action when negotiations begin early next year... Greedy, huge salaries, generous rostered time off, lots of annual leave etc. etc. Big highlight in difference between O/T worked and TIBA's in 2010 and 2011, sickleave spike... Industrial thuggery... holding a gun to the nation... etc...

rennaps
29th Oct 2010, 09:40
Seen on the CANSO website:

"Airservices Australia is currently recruiting for 2011 training courses. We are actively seeking to recruit previously trained and rated Air Traffic Controllers."

However you have to be either an Ausie or a Kiwi. Do you think everybody will come back now?

Worrals in the wilds
29th Oct 2010, 09:48
I can see the Press release(s) if there is even a hint of industrial action when negotiations begin early next year... Greedy, huge salaries, generous rostered time off, lots of annual leave etc. etc. Big highlight in difference between O/T worked and TIBA's in 2010 and 2011, sickleave spike... Industrial thuggery... holding a gun to the nation... etc...

That's where you guys can be prepared with a mitigation strategy and your own press releases. Unlike pilots you all work for the one company so surely you can get a degree of solidarity happening? The media and the media watching public hate two things; Unsafe and Government Ineptitude. Push those two points ruthlessly and ASA can whinge about your salaries and ann leave all they like without winning the media hearts-and-minds war.

Most people wouldn't want your job for quids, and even if they did there's a very small percentage of people with the correct mental wiring. It's not like most other aviation careers where there's a huge queue of eligible applicants who'll roger a cactus for the chance of a job. I don't see why your bargaining position is weak; few people are capable of doing the job and it takes 12-18 months to train the few competent candidates. What can they do to you? The ASA management Leviathan depends on Controllers for its very existance. Even foreign scab labour would take 12 months to train and it would give you the other valuable media weapon to play with; rampant Aussie nationalism.

If the controllers I know have a fault, it's a lack of inner nastiness and political guile that's necessary for fighting industrial campaigns against management snivellers who will do anything to meet their targets. That's the attitude you need to match, and helping your colleagues and preventing TIBAs (while honourable goals) only hinder you further. If one of you makes an error due to fatigue s/he'll wear it, not ASA. The Nuremberg Defence didn't work at Nuremberg and it certainly won't work against butt covering managers and media hysteria in the event of an incident.

Just my 0.02 pesos, but you can't fix anything with hope or righteous anger. Good luck. You do a great job.

blind freddy
29th Oct 2010, 13:07
The Agreement doesn't expire until September 2012.

Blockla
30th Oct 2010, 10:31
The Agreement doesn't expire until September 2012. Ok, cheers so negotiations begin around Feb 2012?

Jack Ranga
31st Oct 2010, 03:04
And will end October 2012 after ATC's are forced to take protected industrial action.

blind freddy
31st Oct 2010, 09:39
Wrong, negotiation will be lucky to even start by October 2012.
And then the blame game will begin, just in time for Xmas!

Jack Ranga
1st Nov 2010, 01:21
Then take P.I.A. the moment it is available not fluff around with warnings.

ASA caved the moment P.I.A. was voted for. Everybody knew they would. Remember that something like 96.5% voted for it last time around. ASA's industrial officers/negotiators (or whatever they are called) are gutless weasels who donot have the courage of their convictions. When push comes to shove, ATC's do.

falconeasydriver
2nd Nov 2010, 11:06
Hey mods, I asked a specific question relating to the standard of service recently recieved whilst operating into MEL, I note with interest that it has disappeared...I would enjoy a response to my question, as ATC shortages also affect flightcrews, I also think it has some relevance to this discussion, even if perhaps this thread has turned into an industrial relations debate rather than an operational one.
Please either re-instate my post (question) or explain to me here in the public domain, why my post was "moderated" (removed)

:ok:

C-change
3rd Nov 2010, 13:06
mrtwister, check your PM's

Coneyisland, your post #37 would be one of the most appalling things I've read on this forum. Did it make you feel good writing that ?


Another college failure who can't conceive that they just couldn't do the job. Blame everything else. Cry me a river please. You need to just face up to the fact that you obviously were not up to scratch. As you yourself stated, we need controllers desperately - what with all the impending retirements and departures to other ANSP's - so do you really think that AsA would knock you back and show you the door if they thought you were capable? After all THEIR time and money invested over the duration. Seriously, reality check please.

kiwivol
3rd Nov 2010, 23:27
C-change
+1

@falconeasydriver: repost it here...

coneyisland
4th Nov 2010, 07:45
C-Change,

Coneyisland, your post #37 would be one of the most appalling things I've read on this forum. Did it make you feel good writing that ?
Why so appalling?? In answer to your question, writing it didn't give me an emotive response (good or bad) whatsoever. Until now that is. Knowing it is THE MOST APPALLING thing you have ever read on this ENTIRE forum makes me quite proud. I managed that mantle without even trying. Makes me think of what response I could achieve if I really let fly and expressed my opinions entirely. So thanks very much for the compliment :)

I was merely trying to express the fact that once again we have a trainee attempting to paint a picture that he/she was strung along for entire year (oh sorry, let's be factual - 54weeks) believing he/she was on top of it and more than capable of doing the job only to be brutally cut without warning at the last hurdle. Given my experiences, this is extremely hard to believe and to outsiders looking in, it puts the entire ab-initio training process in a very bad light.

Before all the AsA haters (and on that note people seriously get a grip and get a life. go back into the real world, get a real job and you will realise how great us ATC's have it!) start on me here, I am very aware of the flaws in the college. 1 instructor between 2 students is not ideal. A former bank manager who still reads ATM as Automatic Teller Machine rather than Air Traffic Management is not ideal. The shortage of instructors to train students is not ideal. That is just to name a few.

However, the instructors I dealt with in my time at the college, as well as those that have gone to or come back since, have all been fantastic. I have not seen one instance of instructors leading students on to believe that they are on top of things when they actually not. In fact it is has been the opposite. One very famous example is the student who, after yet another sim run leaving a lot to be desired, had "Get a Clue!" in easy to read capital letters (among other things) plastered on his/her feedback booklet. If that doesn't express to you that things aren't quite right, I don't know what does. (And don't start on the "oh what poor instructing technique" train.. sometimes you have to give them the hard cold facts straight up, considering he/she had been told repeatedly of the same error's he/she was making!)

During my time in the college I never once saw somebody get cut that didn't know they were struggling. The instructor's make it very clear if you happen to behind the 8-ball!!! They are most certainly not in the practice of giving false impressions to trainees. They are quite aware of the impact the course has on trainee's who have switched careers, taken a huge risk and are getting paid very little! Hence, my slight disbelief at mr. twister's claims!

For the record, I am not completely heartless and do sympathise with mr. twister and I am sorry he didn't get through to the field and an endorsement. Truly. We need everyone we can get! I also am disgusted with his poor treatment by the college in having the course extended for 12 weeks without any compensation. Mr. Twister, the very best of luck with your future endeavours.

C-change
4th Nov 2010, 13:55
Coneyisland,

If your going to quote me, at least get it right, I said that your post was ONE of the most apalling things, not THE most appalling.

I've re-read your original post and I still find it to be a heartless, un-sympathetic, kick in the guts, no matter how hard you try to justify your comments. He doesn't need to cop that from indiviuals such as yourself, who obviously did well on course.

coneyisland
4th Nov 2010, 14:05
C-Change,

You are correct. I did misquote you and I apologise. However, I don't apologise for my comments. I'm certain Mr. Twister wasn't on here searching for sympathy. Just posting his opinions/views in a forum that allows healthy expression and debate on such topics. I am simply presenting my own views/opinions and the other side of the coin so to speak.

If he takes offence at such from an anonymous person on an anonymous forum, well he clearly doesn't have the heart for ATC does he.

Jack Ranga
5th Nov 2010, 00:11
Either way, there is a serious dis-connect between what trainees out of the college are told and the reality of on the job training. I've seen 2 trainees out of the last 7 or 8 rate on our row.

Trainees are being sent back to the college multiple times after field training in attempt to get a rating. WTF? Why is this happening? It didn't happen in the past up until a year or two ago. On occasion trainees would be re-coursed after failing the college NOT THE FIELD.

The last two years of trainees attitudes have been lacking to say the least. It comes from the complete lack of respect that emanates from the bank teller trainer toward the ATC profession. If you hate ATC's that much why are you there?

coneyisland
5th Nov 2010, 00:45
I have to again disagree. After passing all the college milestones and progressing to final field training I was certainly never under any illusion that an endorsement would come to me on a silver platter. I was quite aware that the college phase was only the tip of the iceberg and I was about to make a massive jump in learning to handle live traffic in the real world. In terms of attitude, it was keep the head in the books and take in every piece of advice I could get from anyone with a rating. Those experienced guys/gals were fantastic and I knew I could learn plenty from them and they were to be respected. Anytime I copped criticism I didn't take it personally, just knew my OJTI was doing what was necessary to get me up to the required standard. So if I come out of the college with that sort of attitude I can't agree that the college breeds the horror trainee's I've come across. For example, the enroute trainee who was in Melb Twr on famil and told the ADC he would've done it differently. The trainee on famil with Melb Approach who subsequently fell asleep. The trainee who apparently was doing some famil on his/her sector up in Brisbane prior to commencing field training and decided he/she would reach over, grab the mouse and open a flight plan without asking the FPC plugged in at the time. The trainee that decided to leave the premises halfway through a sim check and not tell anybody.

I was told in no uncertain terms in the college that field training was a massive step up and require a big leap in the learning curve. That I should be taking every bit of advice from the experienced controllers in the field that know what it takes, have proven themselves day in day out for 10, 20,30 years etc. It's not the college or instructors that are responsible for trainees with bad attitudes - it's the trainee's themselves!!! Sometimes I think we excuse the individual too often and blame the organisation! In this case I don't think that's appropriate.

In regards to trainee's being sent back to the college multiple times or being re-coursed, I agree with you - it is a complete joke. If you fail, you fail. Move on please. But you and I both know the bank manager is trying to meet that magical (read, mythical) 100 trainees per year figure!

Jack Ranga
5th Nov 2010, 06:30
For example, the enroute trainee who was in Melb Twr on famil and told the ADC he would've done it differently. The trainee on famil with Melb Approach who subsequently fell asleep. The trainee who apparently was doing some famil on his/her sector up in Brisbane prior to commencing field training and decided he/she would reach over, grab the mouse and open a flight plan without asking the FPC plugged in at the time. The trainee that decided to leave the premises halfway through a sim check and not tell anybody.




Sorta contradicting yourself a little, this appears to be the norm at the moment with a few exceptions. Heard trainee complaining today about the OJTI who un-plugged trainee for a mistake made. Said trainee doesn't appear to understand that it's the OJTI's licence that he's operating under.

Golden Rule :ok:

divingduck
5th Nov 2010, 18:35
I have found that trainee's attitudes have gone to the dogs ever since my course entered final field training;) We of course, were paragons of virtue:E

RYAN TCAD
5th Nov 2010, 20:40
coneyisland are you Gen-Y by any chance?

Jack Ranga
6th Nov 2010, 04:20
divingduck,

FINALLY...........Somebody on the same page :D :E

coneyisland
6th Nov 2010, 04:53
Jack-Ranga... My point is that these are individual's who clearly have a poor attitude, but I seriously doubt you can attribute that to the college. I mean honestly does every single trainee have to be told "don't tell an experienced controller how to do their job", "don't fall asleep at the console whilst on famil" etc. etc. Seriously, this is not kindergarten - instructors are not there to tell adults how they should behave professionally. That's not part of the instructors job description. If you are looking for a scapegoat, the only possible place you can look is perhaps the recruiting process. How are such unprofessional people getting a gig in the first place? But I still blame the individuals themselves. The buck stops with them. It is not the college's fault. I, as well as every other person on my course, left the college with the utmost respect for experienced controllers in the field. And we were very well aware that it was their licence they were risking to train us.

ATC's are as much to blame for the 'toxic environment' that exists within AsA at the moment as the organisation themselves. Too many people that are bitter and twisted and push that onto every new trainee that comes into the Op's Room. It is a disgrace. Since I've said what I've said thus far, I may as throw some more fuel into the fire. The majority of ATC's need to take a reality check and go back to the real world. God help them if they continually worked five or six days a week. Forty plus hours a week. And if they had to stay back a couple of hours a week - no AD rates. Shock bloody horror! I heard one guy complaining in recent days that his new roster meant coverage was such that on his sector they now have to work 1.5hrs on 45 mins off. My god!! What an outrage! ATC's generally don't realise how lucky we have it. Go and step into the average punter's shoes and see what real working life is like!

Oh, and RYAN TCAD, not Gen-Y my friend. Not that I see how it would be relevant.

For the record, for all the coneyisland haters to come, I have zero designs on becoming management. I don't love AsA or Civil Air. I have a simple philosophy in regards to work... I turn up, keep 5 miles and 1000ft and I go home, whilst being paid much too generously. Oh and I try not to let the whinging get to me! (which it clearly has!)

Howabout
6th Nov 2010, 07:40
Me thinks he doth protest too much.

makespeed250kt
6th Nov 2010, 08:08
How are such unprofessional people getting a gig in the first place?

Funny that! I was thinking the same thing when I read your last post coneyisland.

Hempy
6th Nov 2010, 08:19
Unfortunately he makes an arrogant but accurate assessment. Yesterday I personally witnessed a recent LA graduate who was unable to correctly apply 30 RNAV... from memory that was what...lesson 2?

coneyisland
6th Nov 2010, 09:56
How are such unprofessional people getting a gig in the first place?

Funny that! I was thinking the same thing when I read your last post coneyisland.

Unfortunately he makes an arrogant but accurate assessment.


Two fantastic examples of the typical ATC. I am apparently the unprofessional/arrogant one because I do not subscribe to the 'I'm a controller so i'm pretty much God' theory. Just ruffles all your feathers because someone on the inside is prepared to come on here and paint a very different picture of how things are, instead of whining about it all. If believing I have a very lucky job with great conditions and get paid too generously to do it and that most of the people I work with are too self-important to realise that - makes me arrogant and unprofessional, then guilty as charged!

coneyisland
6th Nov 2010, 10:02
Yesterday I personally witnessed a recent LA graduate who was unable to correctly apply 30 RNAV...

Hempy,

That sort of thing is very disappointing and when trainee's such as that make it to field training, you do have to question what the Learning Academy is up to letting that sort of poor standard of trainee slip through! That's the sort of thing we can reasonably attribute to the instructors and academy. Questions are entitled to be asked.

Howabout
6th Nov 2010, 10:58
Riddle me this:

The buck stops with them. It is not the college's fault.

and:

That's the sort of thing we can reasonably attribute to the instructors and academy.

Jeez, I don't mind impassioned argument. What doesn't compute is inconsistency.

rotorblades
6th Nov 2010, 11:16
'I'm a controller so i'm pretty much God'

you mean we're not gods:{

I wondered when I tried to walk across the swimming pool I fell in and got wet.

There was obviously 'a' reason that young chap didnt get put through to field training, I dont know what it is/was, if he feels there wasn't a reason then should appeal against the decision.

Plazbot
6th Nov 2010, 14:16
A quick 'show all posts' and some simple time lining puts coneyisland at about 15 minutes as an ATC (OK, maybe 2 years). Lets see how his perceptions change with time.:rolleyes:

Well paid? Oh spare me :eek: This is one of the many problems OZ ATC has. They do not know their true worth and are the ones ruining their own conditions year in year out and it is weak pricks like coneyisland that are the reason.

mikk_13
6th Nov 2010, 16:28
If believing I have a very lucky job with great conditions and get paid too generously to do it and that most of the people I work with are too self-important to realise that - makes me arrogant and unprofessional, then guilty as charged!

That is the funniest thing I have ever heard. It makes you naive. I smell management. Funny thing is there are heaps of controllers who have been with the company for less than 5 years leaving. Have fun on your doggos.

divingduck
6th Nov 2010, 20:16
If believing I have a very lucky job with great conditions and get paid too generously to do it and that most of the people I work with are too self-important to realise that - makes me arrogant and unprofessional, then guilty as charged!

Rose tinting is obviously switched to the "on" position.:rolleyes:

Young fella...if you think you are getting paid too much, normal custom is that you keep quiet or someone may decide to take it away from you.:ugh:

I quite agree that compared to being a roofer or a labourer, ATCs do indeed get well paid.
If the roofer does a crap job, someone has to do it again, or if it passes initial muster and then fails, someone may get wet.
If you as an ATCO stuff up, you had better hope that everyone is listening to their TCAS...if they have it.
ATCOs get paid well for a very good reason...deal with it and stop trying to tell everyone that they should be lucky just to come into work every day.
I'm so over young pontificating controllers who "kiss up and sh*t down".

Answer this if you would...Do ATCOs get paid as much for working in OZ, Europe or the Middle East? Once you have done that research, ask yourself "why?"

To the guy that was chopped at the end of training...someone saw something that they didn't like. That is what they get paid for...making difficult decisions... it certainly wouldn't have been made on the spur of the moment or without serious thought.
If you have the right of appeal and you think you have been hard done by, appeal by all means. Remember that the college will have kept ALL reports filed on your progress, ask yourself do I really want to go there? Good luck with whatever path you choose.

whymefly
6th Nov 2010, 20:22
Coney Island,
your reference to how easy we ATCs have it says a lot. Do you not get what we do every day?:ugh: In a previous life I was a tradie, and as such I worked Monday to Friday, no public holidays, no shift work, no medical required to retain my qualifications, no 6 monthly performance checks.
I have now been working shift work for almost 25 yrs, I have to pass regular medical checks and regular performance checks.

If I make a mistake, the results can be pretty bl***y stressful- both for how I feel about making a mistake and for the consequences that follow. I guess you probably haven't been stood down yet, might be worth talking to someone who has.
It would also be worth looking around to assess how old the more senior controllers are and how many there are of an advanced age- a lot of us don't stay or can't stay till the general retirement age, hence our remuneration needs to be sufficient to give us some options when we're put out to pasture.

PS I have looked at the conditions should I return to my trade, and I wouldn't necessarily be looking at a drop in take home pay.....

Jabawocky
6th Nov 2010, 22:12
Check the tax returns of any good plumbing contractor.

Tell me you know a poor Turd Burgler :ooh:

ATC are underpaid, or if the pay is almost acceptable they are over worked and trashed by roster/call ins.

Comments from having 4 or more as personal friends.

Pera
7th Nov 2010, 01:25
ATC's are underpaid. If they were paid appropriately then there wouldn't be a shortage. Yes, it's really that simple! :ugh:

It's shortsighted management to not value your personnel assets correctly.

RYAN TCAD
7th Nov 2010, 01:18
What i cant understand is the fact that you have to study down in ML on $30K odd before tax for a good year or so. That kind of limits people applying for this gig to being from ML and living at home? Or having an understanding partner or a great bank manager.

Next they'll be asking you to pay for your training.

Pavement
7th Nov 2010, 02:11
There are days when no money makes the job worthwhile and other days when you feel guilty to take the money.

Who was it that said 'I don't agree with his opinion but I respect his right to that opinion'.

If you compare to the wage paid to managers and 'support staff' I would go gangbusters for more $.

Regardless of what TFN and his cronies say, ATCs will be in short supply in the next few years as the age profile hits and major projects come on line such as son of TAAATS. Of course there is no shortage now :hmm:

coneyisland
7th Nov 2010, 04:31
I love being entertained by the narrow minded and the selfish masses. It gives me a good laugh guys, keep it coming!

Howabout

Jeez, I don't mind impassioned argument. What doesn't compute is inconsistency.Good journo skills, misrepresenting my comments and twisting it around. Nice :D

Plazbot,

A quick 'show all posts' and some simple time lining puts coneyisland at about 15 minutes as an ATC (OK, maybe 2 years).Yes - as I myself have noted in previous posts. Thank you Sherlock.

ruining their own conditions year in year out and it is weak pricks like coneyisland that are the reason.I'm so over young pontificating controllers who "kiss up and sh*t down".
For the record, as it obvious you believe I am one of these controllers who take every AD going and bend myself backwards to help AsA - that is incorrect. I say 'Nup', it is not that hard and more people should do it instead of whinging all the time. I don't come back to work after only 4.5 hrs away. I don't work more than 10 hours at a time. I don't agree to doing dodgy short break procedures when they can't get coverage. So don't make judgements based on assumptions pal!

As far as getting paid more overseas - if people want to go and grab the cash, fine by me. But I would need to paid at least 3x as much to go and live in the Middle East as what they currently pay. I would need Germany to offer twice what they currently do to entice me to move my life, and my fiance's, to go over there! I value my current lifestyle here in AUS as being worth quite a lot. Besides, I'm pretty certain it's a lot busier traffic wise over there than it is here, generally speaking - so they should get paid more! If you all like the conditions offered elsewhere, then go and work there. Don't sit at the console whinging and whining in my ear all day. It gets old real quickly.

It is quite amusing that you all jump up and cry blue murder because I have a different perspective to you regarding my employment situation. Speaking to a lot of my friends in the tradie world, the corporate world, the IT world as a few examples - I happen to think that I have it pretty good. And you try and shoot a bloke down for that. Laughable.

I do agree with you RYAN TCAD, the college training wage is very poor - I think it is just under 40k now but it needs a substantial increase to attract more quality applicants. I personally know of 5 people that withdrew their applications specifically because of this - and all 5 expressed that the pay scales once rated were acceptable.

I have to pass regular medical checks and regular performance checks.You are correct. God help me - how stressful. A performance check for a couple of hours every 6 months. A medical once every couple of years (that's what my requirements are anyway - not sure if they become annual as you get older or something?) Very stressful indeed. :ugh: Oh, and lets not forget the annual open book ratings papers. IMHO, we should be checked way more often! But let's not go into that!

So step up one and all. Let's verbally bash a "weak prick" for being content with his job and having a bit of perspective on life. Living in a gorgeous country, being happy and healthy. Things could be a million times worse in life. I apologise for realising how lucky I am. If you seriously aren't happy at AsA - then just piss off. But take a reality check first!

le Pingouin
7th Nov 2010, 05:51
So coneyisland, you're clearly happy to have AsA management treat you however they see fit in their "whatever it takes" mindset to get their project up and earn their bonus.

"Please Sir, can I have some more?" as they bend you over to make their bonus. Luverly!:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

And no-one said medicals and checks were stressful - that would be misrepresentation and twisting of words by you. Nice.

coneyisland
7th Nov 2010, 06:43
And no-one said medicals and checks were stressful - that would be misrepresentation and twisting of words by you.

your reference to how easy we ATCs have it says a lot. Do you not get what we do every day?:ugh: In a previous life I was a tradie, and as such I worked Monday to Friday, no public holidays, no shift work, no medical required to retain my qualifications, no 6 monthly performance checks.

Ok, perhaps he did not say it was stressful - but lets not whinge and whine about having to do checks and a medical once in a blue moon as this person above had. It's not a big bloody deal.

Le pingouin,

"Please Sir, can I have some more?" as they bend you over to make their bonus. Luverly!

No that is not me, as you would see if you read my previous posts. If you don't want to do something - say no. Pretty simple. And seriously, who cares about their bonuses. Don't worry about it. Jealousy much? FFS

There are way too many ATC's who complain and moan constantly and blow things out of proportion. If you don't like it, then leave. Why don't you? Because you either have zero qualifications or zero alternative prospects. Or for those that do, you don't leave because you know deep down you are on a pretty good deal compared to most. Stop complaining or get out. Please, for my sanity and the multitude of ATC's who have PM'ed me expressing very similar sentiments to my own.

For the record, those that pm'ed (both pilots and ATC's) their support of my comments - thanks very much. Glad I'm not the only sensible one with a grip on reality. To the rest of you, its shameful that they are too worried to express their support openly - as many as easily identifiable by their posting history and wouldn't put it past some of you to hand them off 6 miles with 80 knots closing!! Sad reflection on some of you guys I'm afraid.

mikk_13
7th Nov 2010, 07:14
If you don't like it, then leave. Why don't you?

Well this is basically why the thread exists. People are leaving. There are 6 more that might be coming to germany UAC alone, and all from brissy. And more to the middle east.

Enjoy your doggos, and look forward to the day where you have short break procedure forced apon you, or have to sit for 6 hours on your own, or the day you duck it up and the management put you out on your ass. Don't tell me it doesn't happen because it does.

coneyisland
7th Nov 2010, 07:23
Have I denied we are in a shortage? Not at all. And when my comments are read in context, that's understood. Congrats to those that have left or are leaving for what they perceive to be greener pastures. I respect and applaud that. My comments are directed to those that sit and whinge and whine continually about how bad it supposedly is. They should get out too!!!

ferris
7th Nov 2010, 07:38
Whilst I agree with some of what you say, Coney, (as one who was prepared to do something about it) you do show how wet behind the ears you are with statements like a medical once in a blue moon as this person above had. It's not a big bloody deal. It might become a "bloody big deal" to you when you have 10 or more years in, encounter a health problem and realise that you could, indeed, be looking for something else to do in very short order. My brother, a tradie, last year made slightly more than double what a controller in oz makes and NEVER has to face the prospect of being medicalled out or failing a check. That isn't even WHY controllers earn their money, despite your thoughts on the matter. Many, many knowledge workers 'sit on their arse', so to speak, yet earn far more for doing little more than creating wealth (ahh, the irony)- think traders, programmers etc. It isn't even all about the fact that controllers can make an error and kill, or at the very least seriously endanger 600 people in one go (as you well know). We should earn the biccies for the amount of money we save by adding efficiency to the system (and I really mean that), alone.

People like you crack me up. If you had any integrity you would've approached AsA and offered to work for 'an appropriate amount', thereby assuaging any guilt you have from limiting managers bonuses and overindulging at the public trough.
Entitled to an opinion- sure. Opinion being evidence of immaturity- maybe. Open to comment- certainly.

etz
7th Nov 2010, 07:55
This thread is a great reminder of why I no longer work for ASA.

What do they know of Australia, who only Australia know? (With apologies to Billy Bragg).

coneyisland
7th Nov 2010, 08:05
ferris, if people want to earn double the money - then get out and work as a tradie. Don't sit here and complain all day every day. Medicals are a part of the gig. It's a known fact from day one that you could lose it in the future. Don't like it? Get out. What should been done? Pay us 10k 20k 50? more annually just because one day you might get lose the medical. Get serious.
You and others think your 'services' are worth more. Fine. Entitled to that opinion. My own opinion is I do not think we are worth more. I am appreciative and thankful. Simple. I am presenting my differing opinion to the endless complaining that is evident here and in the op's room.
I am so glad to be "immature" - when immature means I'm grateful, happy and content. Much better than being bitter and twisted like too many of my colleagues.

konstantin
7th Nov 2010, 08:33
Coney

You speak of "those that sit and whinge and whine continually about how bad it supposedly is."

Leaving aside the "one way swimmer" and "God`s gift" brigade (in those specific instances we do have common ground) I would urge you to consider that there has been an almost exponentially increasing level of toxicity in the organisation over about the last decade, on a number of fronts.

The "whingeing and whining" you refer to has to be looked at in that evolutionary context, not as an entrenched attitudinal absolute - which, if not by statement, then at the very least by inference is what seems to be coming through in your posts.

You can get a second opinion on the above from the "multitude of ATCs" from whom you have received PMs. It sure as hell ain`t the workplace it was 10, let alone 15 years ago...and being on quite a good wicket relatively speaking, as you would put it, is far from the complete employment picture.

max1
7th Nov 2010, 08:56
Coneyisland,
I have read all your posts on pprune, including on the ATC forum.
You say you have around two years rated experience are engaged to be married and worked hard at the College. Congratulations.You should be on around the $90k mark with no kids.

Right so far? Any mortgage? I'll also assume ( bad thing in aviation ) that you are in the twenties or early thirties. I'll also assume you haven't done years of nightshift? Haven't been involved in an incident? Maybe seen a colleague who has? Is your sector the busiest? Is it the most demanding? Are you the smartest guy in the room? Is youth wasted on the young?

You needed an ego to be an ATC or pilot, make sure it doesn't bite you on the backside.

You've decided that the Middle East should pay you 3X ( $270k- tax ) your present salary to go up there. They're currently paying around $200k TAX free, when are your resignation drinks? Could you bundle them up with all the others that are leaving to save my liver, like the last 4 guys did six weeks ago and the other resignation/ early retirement people are doing in early December?

coneyisland
7th Nov 2010, 09:25
max1, correct - engaged with no kids (no plans in the near future either) and yes I do have a mortgage.

konstantin, you make a very valid point to which I probably did not give as much thought to as I should have. but in this ever-changing world I would be inclined to think most industries/workplaces would be experiencing the same. the world is about big business and making money, not the little ants that keep the place running. unfortunate yes, but that's the just way majority of things are in this day and age.

Jack Ranga
7th Nov 2010, 09:34
I have a very lucky job with great conditions and get paid too generously to do it and that most of the people I work with are too self-important to realise that - makes me arrogant and unprofessional, then guilty as charged.


Missed ya calling mate, there's a jetstar cadetship waiting for you :)

max1
7th Nov 2010, 09:50
Sorry CI I edited my post whilst you were posting.

coneyisland
7th Nov 2010, 10:00
max1, didn't see your other questions there mate. Correct, i am in my twenties or early thirties. Nope, I definitely don't believe I am the smartest in the room - nor will I ever be. I haven't been stood down directly, but I was involved in an incident and it scared the absolute sh!t out of me! Again, for the purposes of anonymity I won't specify a sector but I am on a fairly busy (not the busiest or most demanding) radar sector, initial sequencing into a major aerodrome. And I actually said the middle east would have to offer me 3x what THEY currently are (i.e. 600k) for me to go over and live that particular lifestyle. So unfortunately no resignation drinks from me, your liver is safe. :)

I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do. If I get to that, i hope my fiance/wife tells me to shut up and walk away. :)

max1
7th Nov 2010, 10:32
CI,
You state the world is about big business and making money
This would tie in with supply and demand? I am bemused, that with your 2 years experience that you think that the people around you are whingers and complainers, we have been telling ASA for over 8 years that they will have a 'Workplace Capability' problem about now and into the future.

When you have a family and the bills that go with it you may understand that our world is not only about 'big business' and 'making money'. We care passionately about looking after the airlines and their passengers.
You can talk about your choice to not do overtime, that is your and my perogative, the o/t money is good but when are ASA going to fix the problem?People are being harassed to work continual O/T. Is a 10 hour shift starting at 4am , 4 1/2 hour break restarting at 6.30pm really safe?

You might find , in the future, enjoying coaching your kids sporting team, volunteering on the sausage sizzle, running the rescue boats at sailing, being on the P&F at school, being able to attend your daughters dance concert, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, was more important than attending work on your rostered day off because the CEO was more interested in his bonus than making sure that he had the required controllers to staff the centres/towers.

max1
7th Nov 2010, 10:49
CI,

The Sandpit is not that bad, 600k AUS to go there?
I can put you in contact with about 30+ Australian controllers, I know personally, who have gone O/S in the last 2 years to 'escape' ASA, who are enjoying the stable rosters, the lack of intimidation to do O/T, the lack of BS corporate speak, and who are left alone to move planes.
If Austria offers more with their tax issues we're out of here too.

le Pingouin
7th Nov 2010, 10:58
Ok, perhaps he did not say it was stressful - but lets not whinge and whine about having to do checks and a medical once in a blue moon as this person above had. It's not a big bloody deal. But the point is few jobs demand it so it adds a premium to our remuneration. As does shiftwork, unsociable hours, etc, etc.


No that is not me, as you would see if you read my previous posts. If you don't want to do something - say no. Pretty simple. And seriously, who cares about their bonuses. Don't worry about it. Jealousy much? FFSI couldn't care less about what a manager earns. I care about why. They live or die as a manager by meeting KPIs & having their project get up. Once you've been around long enough you'll see many changes driven through purely because it's a management imperative. SDE comes to mind as the latest. They swallowed the glossy brochure & the vast savings it would make hook, line & sinker, without having the resources or detailed plan in place to implement it.


There are way too many ATC's who complain and moan constantly and blow things out of proportion. If you don't like it, then leave. Why don't you? Because you either have zero qualifications or zero alternative prospects. Or for those that do, you don't leave because you know deep down you are on a pretty good deal compared to most. Stop complaining or get out. Please, for my sanity and the multitude of ATC's who have PM'ed me expressing very similar sentiments to my own.I complain because I care about ATC as a profession & detest having the latest management fad foisted on us. Spending millions to shuffle the deck chairs so a manager can be seen to be "managing" does nothing for my job. Their priorities and my priorities point in different directions.


For the record, those that pm'ed (both pilots and ATC's) their support of my comments - thanks very much. Glad I'm not the only sensible one with a grip on reality. To the rest of you, its shameful that they are too worried to express their support openly - as many as easily identifiable by their posting history and wouldn't put it past some of you to hand them off 6 miles with 80 knots closing!! Sad reflection on some of you guys I'm afraid.Your reality is a tiny circle around yourself by the sound of it. Maybe when you've been in a few more years you'll actually care about the damage being done to the job. Pay peanuts & you get monkeys.

What was the point on making that last comment? How terribly professional of you.:yuk: Your last sentence sums it up nicely - it's a sad reflection on you.

ferris
7th Nov 2010, 11:00
Pay us 10k 20k 50? more annually just because one day you might get lose the medical. Get serious. I am serious. It needs to be taken account of, even though you are too young to see it affecting YOU, yet. Just wait til your mid-40's, big mortgage (on the house the wife LOVES), the kids in private school, leased cars etc. etc. (or whatever floats your boat lifestyle-wise), then that visit to the doctor with the surprise eye-problem/diabetes/hearing deterioration/whatever suddenly makes you realise that LOL insurance isnt even going to cover the mortgage, let alone the prospect of looking for work, and you might be a little more circumspect. You at least have a glimmer of what people are on about here with AsA being a toxic workplace that WILL slowlly wear down your shiny outlook, hinted at here I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do. Max1 is absolutely correct. Sure, you don't have to be dragged into the negativity etc., but next time Civil Air is asking for a vote on PIA, or a similar situation, have a real good think about it and don't just dismiss it as whining or over-reaching. YOU may need to have been compensated for being turned into a whining, negative AsA victim one day.
So many shiny new trainees. So many bitter old AsA victims. So many working elsewhere (like me).

Don't confuse a great job with a great employer.

Roger Sir
7th Nov 2010, 11:13
So many shiny new trainees.
Where?


So many bitter old AsA victims. Everywhere!



You might find , in the future, enjoying coaching your kids sporting team, volunteering on the sausage sizzle, running the rescue boats at sailing, being on the P&F at school, being able to attend your daughters dance concert, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, was more important than attending work on your rostered day off because the CEO was more interested in his bonus than making sure that he had the required controllers to staff the centres/towers.
It`s called a work/life balance which is a thing of the past these days for some groups.:=

C-change
7th Nov 2010, 12:00
It`s called a work/life balance which is a thing of the past these days for some groups.:=


This is where you are all going wrong, you have it arse about.

It is actually the "Life / Work balance". ;)

Force yourselves to say it, it feels good to put work second.

le Pingouin
7th Nov 2010, 12:54
It is actually the "Life / Work balance". ;)

Force yourselves to say it, it feels good to put work second.I'll be in that :)

Roger Standby
7th Nov 2010, 15:13
or whatever floats your boat

Speaking of which, you got yours yet, Coneyisland?

Jack Ranga
7th Nov 2010, 19:16
I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do. If I get to that, i hope my fiance/wife tells me to shut up and walk away.

One of the reasons you get compensated the way you do is for a couple of factors:

When you have childeren and are working 4 weekends out of 6 and your wife is dragging your kids around the sport/activities, she will, one day get jack of it.

When you're on a group with about 12 other people and 2 are allowed on rec leave at any one time, that's rec leave once every 6 Christmas/Easter/Australia day etc. Did I mention your wife WILL eventually get the sh!ts with this? You kids WILL get the sh!ts with this too. You may be lucky enough to be rostered off, me, I've got a large family and like to catch up (they're all interstate, another joy of this job!)

Despite your making light of the medical situation, those of us who have been here for a significant period of time know people who've lost their operational career due medical reasons.

Despite your making light of the check every six months for a few hours, experienced controllers have been stood down on these checks, not for having an incidents either. Heard of LOEQ? I know a few controllers that have lost their careers through this.

I've also known a few controllers that have had to attend coroners courts, there but for the grace of god go I, I'm not religious by the way but I understand the concept.

These are a few of the reasons why you are paid the way you are.

You might want to have a think about Uberlingen.

Young, dumb and full of come. (Clint Eastwood?)

mikk_13
8th Nov 2010, 08:52
I work 4 days shifts, 4 days off, 5 days shifts, 3 days off. Then it starts again. In dec i have 5 days off in a row. I do not have a doggo until next year.

Next year i have around 90 to 100 days off of leave. because i take the 4 day part off. This turns into 11 days, thus for 4 days leave i get 11 days off.

I get paid about 2x what i got in aus. There is busy traffic but i don't have some asshole telling me how I do my work. Cost of living is lower too.

The grass is so frigen green i am hooked on the stuff, so I won't be back whining on the aus consoles for a long time.

Enjoy your doggos.

max1
8th Nov 2010, 22:00
CI,

Could you post a few examples of the gripes and whinges you hear from the controllers around you, and why you think they are unimportant?

Maybe delve a bit deeper and put yourself in the shoes of those people complaining, and understand how long they may have been in the job, the promises they have been made, for how many years they have been made, and what the Enterprise Bargaining AGREEMENT (signed by ASA) is SUPPOSED to deliver to them and ASA.

It may not be important to you now, but it will be.

P.S. I have NEVER heard of anyone deliberately setting someone up with closing speed like you allude to. I've had the inadvertent situation occur and told them to fix it before I will accept the aircraft, this says more about you that you even think this is a likely scenario.

makespeed250kt
9th Nov 2010, 02:14
Corneyisland,

You said "I, as well as every other person on my course, left the college with the utmost respect for experienced controllers in the field."

Any other bits of advise for the unwashed!

Cheers

keepemseperated
10th Nov 2010, 02:15
mikk_13 - what part of Europe, if you don't mind me asking?

mrtwister
10th Nov 2010, 03:39
Dear ConeyIsland,
I understand that you are sure of how unsuitable I am for the job you so easily trained for, however, I assure you, none of the instructors voiced any concerns over my progress, training or demonstrated controlling techniques leading up to the exam. I predominantly had 2 different instructors sitting with me throughout the runs and their feedback was generally, busy run handled well, main criticism was about ensuring coord and coms with other agencies was not in any way unclear or ambiguous.
There was, however, one run which was supervised by an instructor who, to put it carefully, has quite a say in a trainee's progress. This particular instructor was very involved in the development of the Combined Ops unit and was clearly very proud of the conflicts in the runs. Having trumped the 'sting in the tail' that this particular controller constantly talked about by proving two tracks to be longitudinal, and then stating that (given the time at the crossing point was 9 minutes) I should be able to get a distance standard either by RNAV or GPS. He then told me I can't do that because the trail aircraft was not going through a common waypoint (one was on ADSB flex track). I then stated that the lead aircraft was tracking from blah blah and that, as they were not yet past their crossing point I could use blah blah as the reference point. I was told I couldn't do that because it's too complicated. I then begrudgingly moved on to what the instructor was obviously wanting me to do and decided to climb one aircraft over the other with a requirement. I displayed both aircraft's routes and measured a waypoint well outside the area of conflict (as we were told we could do by the other instructors supervising the unit) to be 51 NM from the ADSB aircraft's route. I then used the trail aircraft's time (which was PETO'd) at the waypoint, subtracted 5 minutes and stated the requirement to be "reach FL380 by time 12". The instructor then said I had no idea what I was doing, stopped the run and proceeded to tell me that I was 'pulling numbers out of nowhere' and attempting to use standards incorrectly. The instructors opinion of my abilities at this point in the training was clearly not favourable. Given that I was simply doing as others had instructed and allowed I felt rather frustrated and annoyed by the whole situation.
Now this is just one run in a whole unit so normally this wouldn't be an issue. However, as I said, this particular instructor swings a heavy hammer and low and behold, who turns up on my right shoulder for the exam?
My point is, too subjective. The rest of this story is lengthy and I feel I have probably given away too much already (if the rumours of ASA trawlers on here are true) so I will leave it there.

Baileys
10th Nov 2010, 10:58
my goodness - thank god for 5 miles on radar.

Awol57
10th Nov 2010, 16:12
Or even better... Visual separation. Just remember it's not watching them miss :=:E

kiwivol
11th Nov 2010, 14:57
Or even better... Visual separation. Just remember it's not watching them miss :=http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


Really...? That's what it looks like from here sometimes. :E ;)

kiwivol
11th Nov 2010, 15:05
mrtwister,

If what you say is true, (and i'm assuming you failed one sim exam) how then did your appeal fail?

just curious...

Jack Ranga
11th Nov 2010, 21:03
Me thinks there's much more to this than meets the eye :cool:

Three sides to every story eh!

kiwivol
15th Nov 2010, 21:22
Me thinks there's much more to this than meets the eye http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gif

Three sides to every story eh!

The lack of reply would suggest so... :hmm:

max1
16th Nov 2010, 12:07
CI
For the record, as it obvious you believe I am one of these controllers who take every AD going and bend myself backwards to help AsA - that is incorrect. I say 'Nup', it is not that hard and more people should do it instead of whinging all the time.

If more people take your line, it will mean more delays for the airlines.

And from meCould you post a few examples of the gripes and whinges you hear from the controllers around you, and why you think they are unimportant?

For the record, for all the coneyisland haters to come, I have zero designs on becoming management. I don't love AsA or Civil Air. I have a simple philosophy in regards to work... I turn up, keep 5 miles and 1000ft and I go home, whilst being paid much too generously. Oh and I try not to let the whinging get to me! (which it clearly has!) i.e. 'I have no personal interest in the industry I'm in'.

You and others think your 'services' are worth more. Fine. Entitled to that opinion. My own opinion is I do not think we are worth more. I am appreciative and thankful. Simple. I am presenting my differing opinion to the endless complaining that is evident here and in the op's room.
I am so glad to be "immature" - when immature means I'm grateful, happy and content. Much better than being bitter and twisted like too many of my colleagues. Again,'I have no personal interest in the industry I'm in'. Somebody elses problem.



And I actually said the middle east would have to offer me 3x what THEY currently are (i.e. 600k) for me to go over and live that particular lifestyle. So unfortunately no resignation drinks from me, your liver is safe.

I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do. If I get to that, i hope my fiance/wife tells me to shut up and walk away. Enlightenment Grasshopper? I'll only do this job for $600k tax free, but money isn't important.

Coneyisland maybe youve had a bit of a think and modified your ideas,congratulations. Either way, from an embittered 'old fart' I love Gen Y'ers. They get the blood circulating.

divingduck
16th Nov 2010, 16:22
Regarding Max1s comment to Coneyisland about ME salaries...

a mate of mine tells a joke, it goes something like:
guy to girl, "would you sleep with me if I offered you a million dollars?" Girl, "yes of course"
Ok says guy, what about for $20?..no way says the affronted girl, what kind of a girl do you think I am?
Guy says, "I think we have determined what kind of girl you are, now we are just haggling about the price".

We should make sure this thread doesn't disappear, so that we can quote from it in a couple of years when it dries out behind CI's ears.:E

cared'n left
19th Nov 2010, 05:37
I've been lurking on here for the last few years and can't believe these threads are still occuring.

"ATC staff are on good pay" or variations of that theme.... Cr*p!

After 19 years with that disaster of an employer AsA, I finally left and changed careers.

I had worked in the old "gloom room" and the shiny new TAAATS system. I had started as a lowly Flight Data, then trained as an ATC (I withdrew from training, sadly before rating). Went off to be a shift supervisor for the FDs and then one of the 3 S&Ts during the transition. Then was one of those FDCs sitting in the corner of the room getting not much in the way of attention but a lot of flack when things go wrong.

In that time the CAA, later ASA took me from callow youth, taught me initiative,
teamwork,
responsibility,
leadership (through very good examples e.g Mr Burnett and Mr Gordon and some very bad examples (wont name them:E))
humility - that one was learnt the hard way :O

Along the way I aquired a Uni degree and the opportunity to work with some truly wonderful and dedicated people.... both of them. :p

But evenutally my family needs changed and I required the freedom to work part time. Sadly the employer had become a little ...er... rigid in its "unofficial policies" and part-time work was just not possible. So, I looked outside the warm and comfy home that I had inhabited for the last 2 decades and found that the rest of the world had moved forward and left poor old AsA a long way behind.

It turned out that all the skills, experience, corporate knowledge that I had acquired in those years just weren't things that AsA needed (or apparently wanted) to retain. Imagine my suprise when I left and found that these skills (not the corporate knowledge of course) were highly valued in the outside world.

Even though I had no real experience in my new career, I was offered a job that paid the same money per hour as the one I had left behind. BUT, no doggos, no weekends, no public holidays. Every Christmas off.

That was all very very nice :).

But then it got better. It turns out that there are employers who appreciate the work you do and offer the opportunity for training to do it better! Who'd have thought?? Then they thank you for attending and making the most of it!!

I miss working in the aviation industry and ATC in particular, but don't tell me that ATCs are well paid. With 3 years of experience in this career, and working only 3 days a week I am still pulling in 70K without any shift penalties and associated health costs.

For those who can, get out asap. You won't look back.

coneyisland
19th Nov 2010, 06:15
And I actually said the middle east would have to offer me 3x what THEY currently are (i.e. 600k) for me to go over and live that particular lifestyle. So unfortunately no resignation drinks from me, your liver is safe.

I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do. If I get to that, i hope my fiance/wife tells me to shut up and walk away.

Enlightenment Grasshopper? I'll only do this job for $600k tax free, but money isn't important.

Dust off those glasses and have a closer read. To clarify, I am CURRENTLY doing this job for about 100k in Australia and am very happy with it. My point being, I would want 600 to go and live in an Arab state where I can't scratch my balls in public without being arrested. I would want 600 to leave my family and friends to drag my poor fiance with me. And for the 600k, it would still be a difficult decision my friend. To those that do go over and chase the cash (not 600k!) good on them. I'm happy for them :D For me, I need some serious compensation to do that. Hence, if it was about money, I'd be on my way. Clearly its not!

Mikk_13

The grass is so frigen green i am hooked on the stuff, so I won't be back whining on the aus consoles for a long time.

Enjoy your doggos.

Congratulations, I'm sincerely glad you are enjoying it over there and took the plunge in the first instance. Rather than sitting here complaining ENDLESSLY and pissing me off like so many back here. Bravo. Keep enjoying it mate.

Max1,

If more people take your line, it will mean more delays for the airlines.

True, if I did zero overtime. I do my fair share, don't mind doing so rather than leaving blokes at the console by themselves - because that's happened to me a few times and I don't like it. But if I am unable due fatigue or commitments, I say no sorry, and move on with life. I don't keep going on and on about being called. For people that claim they've been called numerous times for a shift, if you were clear and said No the first time - subsequent calls are harrassment. If you are unable for the entire day and night, tell them immediately so they won't pester you again when they start trying to move multiple shifts for coverage. Due to the current climate, phonecalls for coverage are going to happen. No amount of whinging and whining about that is going to change it. We all know there is a staff shortage. We all know they stuffed up for years IN THE PAST and are now in a hole that is going to take many years to fix. Constant complaining and moaning by ATC's won't help - so please quit it. It seems a lot of you seriously think upper management is doing nothing about it. Get real. And you also seriously seem to think you know what the best course of action is. Get real again. It's the God complex I spoke of earlier - ATC's apparently know everything)

Someone earlier brought up the issue of respect shown by trainees to controllers, worth remembering it goes both ways ladies. The remarks made towards ab-initio's, or indeed in their presence, sometimes is shameful. The number of time's I've heard controllers openly expressing disgust at the skill level of trainees is amazing. Openly ridiculing them whilst they're within earshot. How do you think this affects their confidence?? I am the first to admit that I think the college training definitely leaves a lot to be desired, I wish I had a longer course, 1on 1 sim training, more training in regards to appreciating the other side (i.e. pilot operations/workloads etc. in way of flightdeck famil). Hopefully this improves in the future. But it is not the poor ab's fault for the training course they receive. Openly saying how pathetic they are does little to help them achieve a rating. If you have some advice for them, why not spend 5 minutes sharing that with them. Instead of ridiculing them and making them feel like sh!t. Not everyone can be God like you remember :rolleyes: Some of us are mere mortals.

Another complaint often heard is the sick leave arrangements, i.e 8 single days w/o med cert. per yr. 15 days total, over that = interview with manager. I have a few close friends that are nurses, spending all day everyday around sick people - go and speak to them about unfair sick leave policies!!! Yes ladies, I am aware I have to be 100% fit for duty everytime I plug in. But AsA have to protect themselves from shirkers as well, sick leave as required is easily abused. This is fair. If you are off 2 consecutive days you need to get a certificate, big whoop - it's fair enough. 8 single days in a rolling 12 months. Fair. Honestly, would AsA want to employ a clown who calls in with headaches/24 hr viruses/the runs 25 days a yr. Lets say such person is replaced on AD for an 8 hour shift each time by an ab on the lowest pay scale. That amounts to nearly 16k per yr in overtime. Double that if you are pulling guys on the top scale in. This system allows fairness for ATC's, whilst allowing AsA to prevent the shirkers from rorting the system. If you have nothing to hide you won't cry about having an interview over your sick leave if required.

Despite your making light of the medical situation, those of us who have been here for a significant period of time know people who've lost their operational career due medical reasons.

Despite your making light of the check every six months for a few hours, experienced controllers have been stood down on these checks, not for having an incidents either. Heard of LOEQ? I know a few controllers that have lost their careers through this.

Oh I understand all this mate. Part of the requirements for the job. Let me ask you this though, seriously how much more do you think you need to be remunerated for having these requirements? On top of the Level 9 scale of 150k p.a (which by the end of the agreement will be 160+) how much extra would be fair? Another 10k? 25k? Please, lord give me strength. Someone mentioned their plumber brother got paid 2x as much. Mate, I'd want twice as much to stick my hands in sh!t all day as opposed to sitting on my backside doing bugger all 90% of the time, getting about 3-4 hrs worth of breaks (generally speaking) in a 9 hr shift to watch foxtel, surf the net, read a book. Tough gig.

Corneyisland,

You said "I, as well as every other person on my course, left the college with the utmost respect for experienced controllers in the field."

Any other bits of advise for the unwashed!

Cheers

makespeed250kts,

Amusing putting the 'r' in coneyisland, you're a clever boy indeed and I'm glad you find me amusing. In regards to actual work, I respect every one of you guys that have a rating and trust me, I am always willing to listen to those who are more experienced and skilled than I am. No lack of respect there my friend. But in regards to other things, like an appreciation of what you have in regards to conditions etc compared to the average Joe - I am more than happy to disagee and express an opinion. Hardly means I don't respect people in regards to their controlling!

Oh, and max1 in regards to the comment about handing off closing, I am just passing on the sentiments expressed to me privately by those people who agree with much of what I say but are too scared to express so for fears of reprisal in the workplace. I don't believe anyone would actually give off the set-up I suggested, but I have heard stories, and seen first-hand, of people watching an incident (whether it be a BoS or BoC or something else) unfold and rather than intervening and ding'ing the ATC concerned, notifies the SM/ALM/front desk and dob's them in. I'm certain you would have to finally agree with me that the above is completely unprofessional and disgusting behaviour. So I understand why people are unwilling to challenge the, ahem, "dominant" males that are so outwardly negative about everything!

Well all, I'm sure there is plenty here for you to be getting on my back with. Crying your outrage and the like. What did someone say to me earlier - I'm young, dumb and full of cum ? Well folks, you may believe I am naive - but goddamn it, at least I am happy. I pity you poor folk. :hmm:

Plazbot
19th Nov 2010, 06:19
LOL
.......

Jack Ranga
19th Nov 2010, 06:27
What did someone say to me earlier - I'm young, dumb and full of cum ?


Yep, I said it, that you are, young dumb and full of cum :ok:

Agree, LOL!

coneyisland
19th Nov 2010, 06:39
Jack Ranga,

Instead of sitting there laughing pal, answer my question... how much is it worth? How much more do you want to be happy with the checking and medical requirements? Let's hear it bud...

Interestingly, just did a bit of quick digging - you all love to harp on about UAE and Germany salaries. What about USA...
"Median annual wages of air traffic controllers in May 2008 were $111,870. The middle 50 percent earned between $71,050 and $143,780. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $45,020, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $161,010. The average annual salary, excluding overtime earnings, for air traffic controllers in the Federal Government which employs 90 percent of all controllers was $109,218 in March 2009."

Comparable to us I'd suggest, with a less advanced system and way busier airspace!

"British air traffic controllers are paid $79,074.63 USD on average to has high as $118,616.35 USD"

NAVCANADA; As an Air Traffic Controller, you can earn between $57,000 and $123,000 per year

Baileys
19th Nov 2010, 08:00
By the way you are going on I'd say we should be paying you a lot less. Seems you wouldn't mind.

Anyway - certainly you should revisit this thread in about 7 or 8 years and see if your opinions have changed - that will be very interesting - mostly for you.

coneyisland
19th Nov 2010, 08:51
By the way you are going on I'd say we should be paying you a lot less. Seems you wouldn't mind.

Anyway - certainly you should revisit this thread in about 7 or 8 years and see if your opinions have changed - that will be very interesting - mostly for you.

If in 7 or 8 years I carry on like the majority of the jaded, precious controllers I work with then, as I've previously stated, I will get out of here and do something else.

I don't want to be paid less pal, I am merely stating that for what I do - I believe I am rewarded fairly.

Listening to some of you lot it is so clear why the vast majority of you are university drop-out's. Which raises another great point come to think of it... How many people out in the real world can earn 150k plus without any tertiary education?

Again -serious reality check people!!!

Jack Ranga
19th Nov 2010, 09:31
Jack Ranga,

Instead of sitting there laughing pal, answer my question... how much is it worth? How much more do you want to be happy with the checking and medical requirements? Let's hear it bud...

I'm happy ole son, that's part of the reason I'm laughing, at you, not with you. I just don't want people like you DEGRADING my conditions just because in your wise OPINION you think you are 'fairly' compensated.

And by the way, you are an army of approximately 3.5% of the ATC ranks. Around 96.5% of us think otherwise when it comes to conditions.

Since when has education had anything to do with making money? I know plenty of people making $150,000:00 or more who left school in year 10. I know one self made multi who was illiterate.

They all work harder than me physically, and longer hours but so what? I'm paid for the legal and personal responsibility I exercise every shift, along with the shite rosters etc.

I will get out of here and do something else.

Bullshit you will, want to wager on that?

coneyisland
19th Nov 2010, 09:58
Are you suggesting I am degrading your conditions? How exactly pal? And is that 96.5%/3.5% split based upon union membership, because those figures are awfully alike? Or pulled out of your backside? Because surprise, surprise for the record - I am a full paying union member buddy. So let's talk about degrading conditions... those wonderful souls who come back to work after less than the agreed break between shifts! Certainly not me pulling that crap pal. Oh and those conditions you speak of, in the wonderful CA we are covered by - that was bargained so wonderfully "in good faith" by Civil Air. How many times do I hear that AsA aren't interpreting the agreement the "way it was intended"? How about Civil Air makes sure they don't negotiate "in good faith"; don't leave it "open to interpretation". But hey our mighty union is too busy weeding out the rat that has stolen yours and my membership fees over the past 2 years aren't they!

Bullshit you will, want to wager on that?


Guaranteed, luckily I have 2 degree's and REAL profession to go back into IF I ever get jaded by ATC. Oh and for the record, paid about 15k more than currently, but having to actually work a lot harder for it! And certainly not the conditions I enjoy now!

Plazbot
19th Nov 2010, 10:12
This is better than watching the Simpsons on ED! Oh my stars LOL!

coneyisland
19th Nov 2010, 10:28
This is better than watching the Simpsons on ED! Oh my stars LOL!

Plazbot, I agree... quite enjoyable !

Baileys
19th Nov 2010, 10:53
Yeah, but Coney - you're Homer!

le Pingouin
19th Nov 2010, 10:56
Let's stop feeding the troll :yuk:

ferris
19th Nov 2010, 11:42
Priceless. It's like watching the uni student, passionately indignant in a protest march, knowing that in 5 years time that same person will be looking down at a march from his corporate gig and wondering if his Porsche will be ok where it is parked. Priceless.

P-Dubby
19th Nov 2010, 11:42
An apologist... but for whom?

rennaps
19th Nov 2010, 11:46
Ahhhh....:{ ...Don't stop now

rennaps
19th Nov 2010, 11:50
Good one Ferris and so true :ok:

flightfocus
19th Nov 2010, 12:02
As an ATC I am appalled and embarrassed by this thread. It's nearly as bad as some of the pilot pissing contests. :eek:

Please stop feeding troll Coney. If he keeps up this S#$* TFN is going to give him an Australia Day Award. :{

coneyisland
19th Nov 2010, 12:20
Flightfocus, baileys, rennaps, P-Dubby, ferris, Le Pingouin... c'mon ladies, don't get all uptight and indignant that someone in the same job as you actually thinks it's a decent deal. God forbid a touch of positivity. For your 6 little whines of outrage I just got 9 people supporting me privately - 4 of them 20 yr + controllers! And 2 pilots! Thank you, by the way - check PM's! Glad not everyone in the industry is like you lot!

By the way, just think - I could be working next to a few of you everyday and you wouldn't even know it! Nor will you ever! Troll??, haha are you suggesting I'm backdooring for AsA management? Dreaming kids, they wouldn't waste the time on following your silly, self-inflated and indulgent views/opinions.

Bring on the outrage girlies :D

I thrive on it!!!

le Pingouin
19th Nov 2010, 13:19
Read the definition of an Internet troll & you is it. Nothing to do with backdooring, although whatever floats your boat :E

Baileys
19th Nov 2010, 13:34
For someone happy with his lot, he sure doesn't sound it. Maybe he should quit ATC and use one of those Uni degrees to get a proper job. We all know how helpful they are in the real world.

divingduck
19th Nov 2010, 14:50
What surprises me is that no one has yet pointed out to CI how he came to have this overinflated salary.....
Could it have been given out by the employer to a workforce that considered they didn't need or deserve a payrise, or did the guys that are doing the "whining" actually stand up and bargain for it?
Just a thoughtette.

ferris
19th Nov 2010, 14:56
It's not outrage, it's pity. Pity touched with that grimace that means you know why controllers get shafted at EBAs- because there ARE people like you, Coney. If you had even a modicum of sense, you might like to ponder this: Do you think all these "bitter whingers" you work along side came to AsA as such- OR do you think that we all started bright-eyed, couldn't believe our luck, and over the moon? I'll give you a a hint genius. Stroll over to the 'learning academy' and take a peak. Breathe in that youthful ebullience.
If you had ANY brains, you might make the link between those first few years and the 'bitter whingers', and figure out that link is AsA. Then, with even a little humility, might recognise where YOU might be labeled. Unless, of course, you have enough arrogance to suggest you are different. Still marching in the protest, a lone voice crying out against all of us?
Guaranteed, luckily I have 2 degree's and REAL profession to go back into IF I ever get jaded by ATC. Start planning, smart boy.

Blockla
19th Nov 2010, 15:53
"British air traffic controllers are paid $79,074.63 USD on average to has high as $118,616.35 USD"what exchange rate was used when this was calculated? Cause it's much higher than that now...

Pavement
19th Nov 2010, 20:45
A lot of ATCs would agree with CI. Conditions are not too bad although everyone (in all occupations) would like more money. Why do you want to knock down someone who is happy with his lot and has the marbles to say so publicly? Yeah he might end up bitter and twisted in 5 years but at the moment I'd prefer to work with him. Coming in shift after shift to hear people moan about how poorly they are treated is a pain.

Yep I've done 20 years and I've had good and bad from management. However, I love my job and I think the conditions are fairly good except for the expectation that people should come in on their days off to make up for poor staffing.

Offer me CPI and the same conditions with the next agreement and I'm sold. I guess that would be a bit too easy for everyone concerned!

Dick N. Cider
19th Nov 2010, 21:20
Pavement,

Agree that there's nothing wrong with being happy with your lot. A couple of agreements ago there was a tour around the country to see what people wanted out of the agreement. Best response was from a southern tower: "No loss in real terms across the agreement and tell Airservices to F$#@ off and let us do our job." Your solution has merit but there's always attack on conditions as any increases (even just CPI) have to be funded by productivity.

DNC

Pavement
19th Nov 2010, 21:28
DNC

Yeah I know, I live in my own dream world sometimes. There will be a lot of meetings in TFNs office and no-one would have the courage to say 'lets avoid conflict and leave conditions untouched'. If they did they would probably be sent on gardening leave. Must be a lot of beautiful gardens around Canberra.

Side note - how much has been spent on GM redundancies over the last few years?

12-47
19th Nov 2010, 23:15
Pavement, I'd love to know your definition of CPI. 3% could explain why in reality your lot has actually WORSENED over the last 10 years.

Are your managers and the plethora of non operational staff receiving CPI within their base and bonus structure?

Jack Ranga
19th Nov 2010, 23:31
For your 6 little whines of outrage I just got 9 people supporting me privately - 4 of them 20 yr + controllers! And 2 pilots!


I'd rather public support as expressed by the others who have the guts to post here ;)

For someone so happy you come across like an angry little gen y'er. :E

By the way, just think - I could be working next to a few of you everyday and you wouldn't even know it!

Why wouldn't I know it? Are you too gutless to express your private opinion publicly, amongst your work colleagues? There's some real balls there :ok:

They wouldn't waste the time on following your silly, self-inflated and indulgent views/opinions.


They, like you, haven't got the guts to follow their convictions, come EBA time they cave whenever PIA is threatened. As witnessed last time when 96.5% odd of us stood together and got you your 'fair' conditions.

I thrive on it!!!

Congratulations, well done, happy for you :D

Guaranteed, luckily I have 2 degree's and REAL profession to go back into IF I ever get jaded by ATC. Oh and for the record, paid about 15k more than currently, but having to actually work a lot harder for it! And certainly not the conditions I enjoy now!


Fair dinkum, you are the first person I've heard of that's traded a 9-to-5, weekends off for shift work and less pay? mmmmmmmm, you kind of prove everyone's point here, except of course your 9 anonymous ATC friends :ok:

Pavement
20th Nov 2010, 00:08
12-47

Yeah whole new topic really. Even CPI doesn't really keep up with costs. Watching as interest rates, water, electricity, petrol etc all go gangbusters. How do you quantify it all?

If costs go up by CPI it doesn't necessarily mean you need CPI on you wage to keep pace. I.E if your yearly costs are $50000 then 5% (for ease) equals $2500. If your take home pay is $100000 (after tax) then 5% equals $5000. So in a cash sense your better off as long as take home pay exceeds costs included in the CPI.

Yep very simplistic. However, the point I made is that most ATCs would be happy with an increase without any change in conditions. As to the amount, well we each have our sell out point I guess.

ferris
20th Nov 2010, 00:59
If your take home pay is $100000 (after tax) then 5% equals $5000. Ahhh, no. To achieve a 5% increase on your netpay, you need to achieve more like a 10% increase on your grosspay. Which explains why if you receive only CPI increases, you are going backwards (if you spend more than 50% of your net pay, in this example). Especially when almost everyone manages to spend about 100% of their net :rolleyes:

Pavement
20th Nov 2010, 01:15
Gross $200k tax 50% = net $100k
5% increase
Gross $210 tax 50% = net $105k (5%)

Agree with one point though, most acts spend more than they earn cause they can't add up :ok:

ferris
20th Nov 2010, 01:25
Your numbers might work if you had a flat tax rate environment (and people spent 50% of what they earned- good luck with that). You sure you are not a manager with such numerical skills?

Agree with your point about fighting for increases though. Most would be happy not to fight, ever, if they just left everyone alone and issued CPI. Tell him he's dreamin'.

Pavement
20th Nov 2010, 01:36
It works. It was a side point. I did say it was simplistic just to demonstrate that comparing rises to CPI does not account for each persons situation.

I can't be a manager - I'm too happy.

mikk_13
20th Nov 2010, 13:34
Why doesn't civil air just give ASA what they want.

Next CA, just let them go for it. All new trainees get no salary while in the college, 25g while final feild training. New controllers get 40g to begin with, increments over 40 years to 140g. Do away with training bonds. No extra money for over time. Bonus money to retire early, no incentives to stay. Let them go for it so everyone retires, no one new wants the the job, and let it all collapse. Cancel the extra money to train someone, and if you want to quit before this ca comes in you get 150grand. Give them the rope to hang themselves

whymefly
20th Nov 2010, 22:48
Hi eveyone, seems the topic is almost back on track. The point of the original thread (if I remember rightly.......) is that ASA/TFN has finally fessed up to the fact that there are not enough bods on seats. Shame they haven't got the kahoonas to admit that it's their fault.
The $64 question is (and I suggest this may be a rhetorical question): can they fix it?:p

Pavement
20th Nov 2010, 23:41
I agree we did digress. Although everyone would be happier if the next agreement is short and sharp.
Staffing will never be fixed. Management accept staffing levels that require high levels of overtime to makeup the shortfall. This won't change. Therefore group staffing will never be adequate.
TFN and his groupies think that technology will be the savior with lots of promises of big staff reductions (eg tower on a stick, voice recognition, son of TAAATs, ADS-B). Maybe in 20 years but not in the timeframe required.
Won't change until the management is refreshed with people who understand the business and providing a service to the customer. A CEO needs to take a bit hit on their bonus and do a one off paper increase in the budgeted staff numbers to give managers authority to work towards an increase.
Yep - dreaming again.

cattledog
21st Nov 2010, 03:05
CI,

"It seems a lot of you seriously think upper management is doing nothing about it. Get real."

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha what else do you swallow hook, line and sinker.

Proof is in the pudding my friend. check ATC staff numbers over the last 5 years in the annual reports. hmmmmmm going down - awesome upper management action.
:D :D :D

max1
22nd Nov 2010, 03:57
CI,

Some selective quotes of yours

And don't start on the "oh what poor instructing technique" train.. sometimes you have to give them the hard cold facts straight up, considering he/she had been told repeatedly of the same error's he/she was making!)

If he takes offence at such from an anonymous person on an anonymous forum, well he clearly doesn't have the heart for ATC does he.
Another college failure who can't conceive that they just couldn't do the job. Blame everything else. Cry me a river please. You need to just face up to the fact that you obviously were not up to scratch.

But I still blame the individuals themselves. The buck stops with them. It is not the college's fault.

you do have to question what the Learning Academy is up to letting that sort of poor standard of trainee slip through! That's the sort of thing we can reasonably attribute to the instructors and academy. Questions are entitled to be asked.

We all know they stuffed up for years IN THE PAST and are now in a hole that is going to take many years to fix.

Someone earlier brought up the issue of respect shown by trainees to controllers, worth remembering it goes both ways ladies.

But it is not the poor ab's fault for the training course they receive. Openly saying how pathetic they are does little to help them achieve a rating. If you have some advice for them, why not spend 5 minutes sharing that with them. Instead of ridiculing them and making them feel like sh!t. Not everyone can be God like you remember Some of us are mere mortals.

Oh, and max1 in regards to the comment about handing off closing, I am just passing on the sentiments expressed to me privately by those people who agree with much of what I say but are too scared to express so for fears of reprisal in the workplace.

I don't believe anyone would actually give off the set-up I suggested, but I have heard stories, and seen first-hand, of people watching an incident (whether it be a BoS or BoC or something else) unfold and rather than intervening and ding'ing the ATC concerned, notifies the SM/ALM/front desk and dob's them in. I'm certain you would have to finally agree with me that the above is completely unprofessional and disgusting behaviour. So I understand why people are unwilling to challenge the, ahem, "dominant" males that are so outwardly negative about everything!

I hope you don't tolerate the behaviour you state that you have seen occur in that last paragraph. I also hope you have the intestinal fortitude to stop the behaviour you say you have seen occur in regards to ab-initios. See it, Report it, Stop it.

BTW

By the way, just think - I could be working next to a few of you everyday and you wouldn't even know it! Nor will you ever!

What's this comment about?????

coneyisland
22nd Nov 2010, 10:04
max1,

Wonderful cut and paste work. Great example of things being taken out of context. You may have a calling as a journo or lawyer with those skills. :ok:

To answer your question re:doing something about it (people watching incidents occur). The two instances that I was indirectly involved with/aware of - I did raise it with the SM on duty on both occasions making my discontent with the issue quite clear.

In regards to derogatory/negative comments made to Ab's, I have always shared my experiences with them and given them positive feedback/motivation where possible. Being a 2 and a bit year controller however, I'm not going to openly tell a 20 yr controller how he should conduct himself around the workplace. Not my job. I have however reported such comments to my manager. That's what he is there for!

Anyhow, it's clear I have different ideas/opinions to most of you. I respect your views as I trust you respect mine. Perhaps one day I may come to the same views/conclusions after being in the system as long as some of you! As long as I come to those on my own - not through the constant droning of negativity from others around me in the workplace.

Sadly, it is the attitudes/actions of fellow controllers (not all) that has had the most negative impact on me in my short career as an ATC - not the way I've been treated by AsA, I have no personal bad experiences there thus far.

All the Best

Plazbot
22nd Nov 2010, 11:54
COmpletely unrelated to staff shortages (but a contributing factor) I will support one of COneyIsland's watching it happen points. In all my time on the licence burner that is Tops, I was stood down only once and it was entirely a case of the shithead in Melbourne watching it happen. I called with 4 estimates for him (why the fark we do voice estimates on ADSB tracks that messaging has worked for is lost one me). He took the first one then told me he would call me rigt back for the second and hung up. I sat and waited doing not a whole lot for a few minutes and then he called back. I assumed it was for him to tell me about number two but he asked me if I was planing on giving him number 4. I replied that I had already called him and he was getting back to me. I looked at the clock and it was now 14 minutes from number 4's estimate to the fence. For non ATC types, in procedural airspace in OZ you gotta call up and tell them the acft is coming 15 minutes before their fence. I called the front desk straight away to let him know there may be an issue and he told me that the Melbourne sup had already called him to tell him I had dropped coord. The cnut must have sat and watched the clock tick down the 5 or so minutes instead of actualy calling me back like he said he would then dobbed me in for not calling him. WTF? I have since found out who the cnut was and he is 'on the list'. I will wear it though as apparently I should have called him back on his I will call you back :rolleyes:

Anyway, as for

not the way I've been treated by AsA, I have no personal bad experiences there thus far.

Just wait, it will come. I recall sitting in my managers office (the one above ALM whatever that is) and discussing my release to the College for the gig I scored. I have quite the list of GTS, SME and project duties on my resume. HE informed me that 'If you want me to do something for you, you have to do something for me first'. There was no 'something' that he had in mind, only the concept that as he was the new manager, I had no 'points' with him and I was not to be released. I accepted my job in the Middle East that afternoon.

AsA has some very serious issues with staff at all levels and there would have to be sme serious changes before I for one would be looking at picking up a head set in OZ again.

5miles
22nd Nov 2010, 12:48
Offer me CPI and the same conditions with the next agreement and I'm sold.

Is that the same conditions that seem to get re-interpreted on a daily basis? :ugh::ugh:

I would like to see any clause containing weasle words such as "maybe, should, reasonable, at our discretion" removed.

divingduck
22nd Nov 2010, 19:40
To answer your question re:doing something about it (people watching incidents occur). The two instances that I was indirectly involved with/aware of - I did raise it with the SM on duty on both occasions making my discontent with the issue quite clear.


I'll give this new fangled cut and paste thingy a try....

So...having complained that noone did anything about it you told the boss...did you at any stage try to call the guy about to have a breakdown? That would have struck me as the obvious thing to do..otherwise you could also be accused of watching someone go under, don't you think?

Being a 2 and a bit year controller however, I'm not going to openly tell a 20 yr controller how he should conduct himself around the workplace. Not my job. I have however reported such comments to my manager. That's what he is there for!

Actually I do think it is up to you to tell the guy/gal that their behaviour isn't correct...he may be completely unaware that he is doing it...seriously! If he then gives you a mouthful of abuse, (and I have been on the receiving end of a few of those) THEN rat him out to his boss...I wouldn't like to hear about something like this for the first time when in a meeting with the boss.

Running up to the boss in the first instance and "ratting out" your workmates will not do your future happiness in the workplace any favours...reputations like that you don't need.

Sadly, it is the attitudes/actions of fellow controllers (not all) that has had the most negative impact on me in my short career as an ATC

That seems from this distance to be unfortunatley the norm these days...it never used to be thus...but then again in my day there were no performance bonuses to protect either.

TrafficTraffic
22nd Nov 2010, 19:57
in my day there were no performance bonuses to protect either.


.....just as well :ouch: :8

how things anyway DD?


TT

divingduck
22nd Nov 2010, 21:55
Hey TT, harsh but fair comment!!

Winter is just showing it's head here...minus 3 this am and going for minus 4 tomorrow...almost enough to get the hat, gloves and scarf out of the box.

How's everything down there?

Worrals in the wilds
23rd Nov 2010, 00:00
I would like to see any clause containing weasle words such as "maybe, should, reasonable, at our discretion" removed.


Why doesn't civil air just give ASA what they want.


If you're not already aware the rules and process for negotiating agreements have changed recently. Even if you are a member you are not obliged to nominate the union as your bargaining representative, but can nominate yourself or another person to do so. Theoretically everyone covered by the agreement could nominate their own representative and they would all be entitled to attend negotiations. If you are not happy with civil air's previous negotiations you are legally entitled to nominate someone else to do it for you. If you wanted to, a group of you could get together and nominate someone to bargain on your behalf.

Both sides must bargain in good faith and the agreement must pass the 'better off overall' test.

http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/factsheets/making_agreements_guide.pdf

max1
23rd Nov 2010, 12:58
max1,

Wonderful cut and paste work. Great example of things being taken out of context. You may have a calling as a journo or lawyer with those skills.

CI you showed your attiude to Mrtwister who bombed out in the College, go and reread your posts to him/her and tell us why your attitude changes at Final Field Training. You alternately place the blame at either the College or the trainee.

To answer your question re:doing something about it (people watching incidents occur). The two instances that I was indirectly involved with/aware of - I did raise it with the SM on duty on both occasions making my discontent with the issue quite clear.

What was the follow up?

In regards to derogatory/negative comments made to Ab's, I have always shared my experiences with them and given them positive feedback/motivation where possible.

Well done, this is what we need.

Being a 2 and a bit year controller however, I'm not going to openly tell a 20 yr controller how he should conduct himself around the workplace. Not my job.
Bullsh!t. We have a few dinosaurs, do it the right way and you can make a difference.

I have however reported such comments to my manager. That's what he is there for!

What was the follow up?This is where the negativity comes from. Most of the ALMs don't like 'issues'. Use the processes and MAKE them deal with it. "Evil happens when good people do nothing". From your posts I think you might be based in Melbourne?


Anyhow, it's clear I have different ideas/opinions to most of you. I respect your views as I trust you respect mine. Perhaps one day I may come to the same views/conclusions after being in the system as long as some of you! As long as I come to those on my own - not through the constant droning of negativity from others around me in the workplace.

Fair enough, but the 'negativity' has come about from the actions and words from above. One can only listen to so much ' Great place to Work' ' Work/life balance' 'Atmosphere of trust, mutual respect' when actions seem to dictate otherwise, without becoming jaded.

Sadly, it is the attitudes/actions of fellow controllers (not all) that has had the most negative impact on me in my short career as an ATC - not the way I've been treated by AsA, I have no personal bad experiences there thus far.

Wait until you have kids and 10/15 years of service and have put a long service leave request in 3 years in advance and have it knocked back 3 months out ( knowing that they never had any intention of letting you go anyway) and you have to explain it to your wife.
Wait until you are selected as the Number 1/2/3/4/ applicant for an advertised position but can't be released and number 7 from a non-operational position will be trained up to get your slot.
Wait until your immediate manager promises that if you take on extra admin/procedures duties for the year that you will get accelerated advancement or priority for a position only to find out from their superior that this will not be approved. See Plazbots post (Hows the ME and the bike-riding going, they're missing you at the Mt Cootha mens room. Haha.)
Listening to the gripes whilst tedious, are they valid?

It's perplexing when ASA make out that the controllers they have lost were going to leave anyway. A bit of trust and delivering what they promise would have kept them here.

CI, you seem to have a caricatured view of the Middle East. Have you ever been there or spoken to people who have? The people I know who are up there, and have been there, think it's alright.

etz
24th Nov 2010, 07:29
The Middle East is not just alright. It's better. I speak from experience not hearsay.

Hempy
24th Nov 2010, 07:55
etz,
It's not rocket surgery. As I said to a colleague the other day, it's better to work for Serco and be a number than to work for ASA, be a number, AND put up with the bs. The quicker ASA realise they are nothing without their people the sooner things will (may) start looking up. This 90's (80's?) profit at all cost rubbish management tenet is so outdated it's ridiculous. As a wise man once said "I take care of my staff and profit takes care of itself"..

..not too many wise men in the AWB :sad:

Plazbot
24th Nov 2010, 09:12
As stated before, a simple break down for Enroute dudes at the UAE ACC. I am a few weeks short of 1 year here for those wanting that perspective.

41 minutes door to door from place in Dubai Marina.
Dubai is like the Gold Coast minus the bogans.
I pay 7 OZ dollars for pints at the Barasti which is a $2 OZ dollar cab ride away.
I save what I used to get paid in OZ (plus what wife earns)
My eldest kid is half way through year 2 and excelling and would not even start year 1 until Jan 2011 in OZ (school aint cheap but see point above)
There is nothing I am not permitted to do here that I could in OZ.
You are an Air Traffic Controller and they respect the position.
That is pretty much it.

Having researched the position a number of times for a number of years, today's reality is far different to what ot was 10, 5 and even 3 years ago.

As always, don't take my word for it, it matters zip to me :)

divingduck
24th Nov 2010, 09:19
Hey plazbot, you forgot....

standard rosters with plenty of time off
fairly generous leave allowance
the ability to plan leave months ahead (and not have it cancelled at the last moment)
Not getting rung up at home multiple times on days off
sufficient staffing
petrol at 30c per litre
not getting stood down for bullsh!t reasons

and on and on...

Plazbot
24th Nov 2010, 09:24
Absolutely. I could write probably another hundred points but I think, lifestyle, beer, kids education, family opportunity, beer and Job staisfaction are the big ticket items that worry most people making the decision. I am a BRisbane boy through and through and thought that I would struggle after the shine of a new job wore off but low and behold, I was wrong. Gotta scoot as I have a snow board lesson this arvo, gotta get in practice for the two weeks in Saas Fee in Feb (already approved and booked).

Oh, rumour (straight from the conerned person's mouth) is that there are more starting here (and Germany) very shortly from groups AsA is extremely short staffed on.

mikk_13
24th Nov 2010, 15:17
who did the naughty over mildura? i guess the cheese is lining up for asa. 2 in the news witin a year. can some one paste the news

le Pingouin
24th Nov 2010, 15:48
He was fairly newly minted & is no longer an ATC. Bugger the cheese, it's the vacuum in between that bothers me.

divingduck
24th Nov 2010, 16:51
Is this the one you were asking about?

Airliners on collision course over Mildura (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/airliners-on-collision-course-over-mildura-20101124-187e5.html)

mikk_13
24th Nov 2010, 19:46
hey thats it!

denabol
24th Nov 2010, 19:55
This lays it on the government.

How Airservices Australia nearly killed 443 people – Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2010/11/24/how-airservices-australia-nearly-killed-443-people/)

Where is the union in this? Why no stories in the newspapers or TV.

Jack Ranga
24th Nov 2010, 21:03
''The fact that the controller did not recognise the conflict at any stage would indicate that he had not resolved the deficiencies identified in his performance during training,'' investigators concluded.
(my bolding)

So deficiencies were identified and yet this person was rated without the deficiencies being fixed?

What has CASA had to say if ATSB has made a finding on this?

What has ASA done to ensure that this doesn't happen again?

Could it be that ASA are recruiting people they know will comply with 'their' behavioural model rather than people who can do the job?

There is an appalling lack of supervision of junior (and senior) controllers, my ALM is two aisles away. Could it be that teams worked? Yeah, they worked but it took extra staff, so that aint gunna happen :ugh:

12-47
24th Nov 2010, 21:58
Why no stories in the newspapers or TV.

Mainstream media has picked it up.

Qantas jet and Emirates jumbo were on collision course | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/qantas-jet-and-emirates-jumbo-were-on-collision-course/story-fn32891l-1225960417054)

Airliners on collision course over Mildura (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/airliners-on-collision-course-over-mildura-20101124-187e5.html)

etz
25th Nov 2010, 02:15
I pay $3.50 for a pint at Barasti. Thanks to EPC. Cabs about $8.
Work 11 minutes.
Petra next week. Switzerland the week after.
Blah Blah Blah.
Changing employers is like being on some mood lifting drug.

P-Dubby
25th Nov 2010, 04:52
Why does everyone always ask "where is the union"?

They are right there clambering for media attention with the rest of us.

Do you think you can compete with a bottomless bucket for spin?

Chatz
25th Nov 2010, 16:34
I agree with Plazbot, divingduck and etz. Folks, if you're not happy in oz; check the sandpit out as an option. Its like living on the Gold coast, you get to do the job without the b/s you get in oz, and you can do everything here you could there. The big perks are that this is probably (and no, I haven't researched every ANSP) the best ATC roster you'll ever work in your life, and if you can manage to spend what you earn, well good luck to you.

I love that I can go to work and enjoy what I do, and then go home and live my life...

Good luck to everyone on the coal face in oz. There's no doubt that there's still major issues, and the unfortunate thing is that (what I saw) it leeches into every aspect of your life, which makes it hard to appreciate work.

Breathe
25th Nov 2010, 22:57
If anyone ever asks me; I tell them that my relatively short stint as an Air Traffic Controller was the best job I ever had. What a blast.

Thank fcuk I am no longer in the game. How anyone could work in such an environment, with such a jaded, disgruntled, caustic, whingeing bunch of people is beyond me. We all have a choice people. I'll repeat that one more time; we all have a choice. I made the tough decision (at the time) to leave a job I really enjoyed to expand my horizons and I haven't looked back.

If you don't like it, do something about it. Don't you guys get tired of bitching about your work, your conditions, your employer, your management, your CEO? Do something about it. Expatriate, leave the job, or put your hand up and be a manager or CEO.

I know several of you out there (Melbourne) who love the job and the role for what it is and make the best of it. They're more than happy to tell you what a great life they have and how little they do for their lifestyle. Hats off to them. I never hear them carrying on like you lot.

Plazbot, I enjoyed reading your list of 'good things' about the Middle East. I have spent my fair share of time there with my work, so I have to challenge you on one point - There is nothing I am not permitted to do here that I could in OZ. Come on mate, there are some things you can't do in the Middle East ...:) Or at least if you do them, you'll end up in a prison!

Breathe everybody - just breathe!.

Hempy
26th Nov 2010, 09:38
Thank fcuk I am no longer in the game. How anyone could work in such an environment, with such a jaded, disgruntled, caustic, whingeing bunch of people is beyond me. We all have a choice people. I'll repeat that one more time; we all have a choice. I made the tough decision (at the time) to leave a job I really enjoyed to expand my horizons and I haven't looked back.

If you don't like it, do something about it. Don't you guys get tired of bitching about your work, your conditions, your employer, your management, your CEO? Do something about it. Expatriate, leave the job, or put your hand up and be a manager or CEO.

I know several of you out there (Melbourne) who love the job and the role for what it is and make the best of it. They're more than happy to tell you what a great life they have and how little they do for their lifestyle. Hats off to them. I never hear them carrying on like you lot.Breathe,

With all due respect, you mention you were not in the job long and I would suggest you are of the 'recent' generation anyway. The one thing everyone who 'carries on' here shares in common is an honest love of the job. By leaving after a short stint I am guessing I know why, because if you are suggesting ATC's do 'little' for what they earn you are showing genuine ignorance of both the responsibility and pressure of the profession. Work a busy Friday afternoon shift during thunderstorm season on a procedural sector, throw in the odd com failure etc, and you walk out knowing you've earnt every cent. This is day to day, not exceptional. Maybe add some IFER, VFR lost on top, (god forbid) engine failure....and then add it to the fact that you are on the rear end of 8 straight, with a rostered OT doggo tomorrow..

The entity that is ASA switched from being a public service to a government business enterprise in 1995, but they really didn't become the bureaucratic behemoth they are until the transition to TAAATS in 1999. There was a concerted effort leading up to transition on 'cultural change'....we were no longer about people and safety and service, but profit and safety (in that order). Those career ATC's who remember what the organisation once was and compare it to todays iteration feel that it is there absolute God Given Right to be a "jaded, disgruntled, caustic, whingeing bunch", but don't worry, they are a dying breed and one day soon ASA will have 2 centers filled with next-gen career changers who will do 5 years and move on, and the experience drain won't even be a concern because technology will surely save the day...

At the end of the day though, I fail to see why any of it matters to you..as far as I can see the only people who would be concerned about people whingeing about ASA management would be ASA management....

Breathe
27th Nov 2010, 08:59
Hempy

No, not of the recent generation - been out over a decade (whatever generation that makes me?).

I told you why I moved on, so not sure why you're 'guessing you know why'; pretty straightforward I thought. Not because it was too hard, too easy or unbearable management - just wanted to learn about other aspects of aviaton. I had the same love for the job you speak of - I stated that in my first line. We all have a choice. So please respect mine to move on.

Thanks for the example scenario of tough days/weeks - I had my fair share, so nothing earth-shattering there. I held the same responsibility and experienced the same pressures you do so to say I am ignorant of them is, well, ignorant - but whatever you reckon. I experience much more stress, pressure and reponsibility now than I ever did as an ATC - it's just different.

Why does it matter to me? It doesn't. But as an ex-ATC and still in the industry with many friends in ASA, I have an interest in all aspects of the domain. I'm not ASA management and I wasn't aware you had to be in ASA to post an opinion on this forum.

Breathe everybody; just breathe.

coneyisland
7th Dec 2010, 10:01
It seems I must apologise for my previous expressions of personal opinion regarding the fact that I believe the majority of my fellow Australian ATC's are whingers, moaners and just downright self-involved!

After the actions and words of Spanish controllers over the past week it would appear that these are common traits amongst controllers worldwide! :}

It is embarrassing and I apologise to the rest of the aviation world for my narrow-minded colleagues.

Breathe - I don't think I'll be too far behind you in calling myself an ex-ATC!!

P-Dubby
7th Dec 2010, 11:11
Coney Island,
After that last post I hope so.

But I don't really believe you are an ATC anyway. You sound like a certain type we do see in the building from time to time however.

Did you even read this about what is happening in Spain before typing?

http://www.ifatca.org/press/061210.PDF

Jack Ranga
7th Dec 2010, 11:23
..........................................whatever :cool:

rennaps
7th Dec 2010, 11:43
CI.
You are a twit (maybe I spelt that wrong)
Read their grievances before you make a post. :=

I don't think I'll be too far behind you in calling myself an ex-ATC
I suggest you go for it!

coneyisland
7th Dec 2010, 12:16
But I don't really believe you are an ATC anyway.

Ok, keep thinking that mate. I can't categorically prove whether I am or aren't really can I so what does it matter. But I, like you, turn up every day, read a multitude of pointless TLI's, DCN's, Group Circular's etc. Read a novel's worth of NOTAM's and then plug in and for the most part, process routine traffic. Whether or not you choose to believe I'm an ATC is up to you pal.

Read their grievances before you make a post.

rennaps,

I just spent 2 hours reading the Spanish ATC thread prior to posting. I'd also viewed that IFATCA document prior.
An unannounced strike was still a disgusting course of action.

coneyisland
7th Dec 2010, 12:19
oh, but wait, I should feel pity for them now because they "are working at gunpoint".... haha what a joke

P-Dubby
7th Dec 2010, 12:37
CI,

I am pretty sure I speak for the real air traffic controllers, not to mention the sane people of the world, when I invite you to go **** yourself sideways.

coneyisland
7th Dec 2010, 12:45
P-Dubby,

Getting a little touchy over my comments are we pal. You sensitive poor bloke. Boxes of tissues are located on the top of the console you dear old soul. Help yourself to as many as you need - it sounds like you are definitely a *ahem* "real controller". :rolleyes:

hoboe
7th Dec 2010, 12:55
...and then plug in and for the most part, process routine traffic.

So C.I., The general theme of your complaint is that we have it pretty good for what we do, i.e. processing routine traffic... Maybe you are right, but you know what - we get paid what we do because 5% of the time when the $#it hits the fan, you are expected to handle it!

Would you be happier if we all got a basic wage, and only got 'big bucks' when the proverbial did strike! Maybe Flight crews should also only get a basic wage and get the 'big bucks' when Nancy Bird decides to strike! Maybe my sister-in-law (Anaesthetist) should get a basic wage and only get the 'big bucks' when the the patient goes into cardiac arrest! And maybe you should just STFU!

And don't put me in the category of the disgruntled overpaid ATC that needs to look outside to see how good he has it. I have been an ATC for 6 years... Before that a cop for twenty. I know about the other side of the fence...

coneyisland
7th Dec 2010, 13:10
Yepp, 100% correct, in fact you are actually level headed and realise we do get paid the "big bucks" and should be appreciative for it. I've seen the wages for QLD, VIC & NSW police officers recently. What they get paid is a disgrace and wrong. Give me the work and conditions of an ATC anyday as opposed to what you had to put up with for a pittance in your previous career.

Although people apparently don't believe I'm an ATC, I have no trouble, however, believing you were a copper with wonderful, intelligent quotes like this
"And maybe you should just STFU!"
Very typical of the local constabulary haha.

divingduck
7th Dec 2010, 13:26
sighs...CI, welcome to the world of my "ignore" list...

hoboe
7th Dec 2010, 13:30
You missed the point , like you do everytime...

There are many many mundane jobs in the world, and the employees concerned get a minimum wage. There are also quite a few jobs in the world, where the work, on average, is mundane - however, when 'the proverbial hits the fan', you are expected to cope with it and get the job done in a professional and competent manner. If you don't, people die - that's the difference...

P.S.: You quoted me incorrectly - I didn't have quotations marks... :ok:

coneyisland
7th Dec 2010, 13:37
Oh you precious fools, I give up. Your ignorance and apparent lack of comprehension of the English language is no longer tolerable...

hoboe
7th Dec 2010, 13:52
Correct Use of quotation marks:

"Oh you precious fools, I give up. Your ignorance and apparent lack of comprehension of the English language is no longer tolerable..."

Incorrect use of quotation marks:

"Oh you precious fools, I give up. Your ignorance and apparent lack of comprehension of the English language is no longer tolerable..."

Correct use of quote function (without quotation marks):
Oh you precious fools, I give up. Your ignorance and apparent lack of comprehension of the English language is no longer tolerable...

I may be precious, but I know my grammar - FOOL!

idb
8th Dec 2010, 01:56
Chickoreee Autocat!!!

This is great. It's like watching a bitch fight between a couple of ladies. I keep watching on the off chance they might kiss.:E

denabol
8th Dec 2010, 02:22
Uh oh. Wasn't this in an area where Airservices always has enough staff.

Mystery near miss involving Qantas 767 near Melbourne Airport – Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2010/12/08/mystery-near-miss-involving-qantas-767-near-melbourne-airport/)

make-mine-a-Coopers
8th Dec 2010, 05:29
You're almost right, idb, when you say that it is "like watching a bitch fight between a couple of ladies."

But for the comments of coneyisland, and the reactions to them, this thread would continue to explore the very real and potentially grave situation presented by the lack of adequately trained and qualified Air Traffic Controllers employed by my former employer of 26 years, Airservices Australia.

The level of professional respect shown by my current employer, Serco, is streets ahead of the level of professional disdain shown by Airservices - from the very top down - and it is only one reason for my decision to join the exodus of ATCs from Australia.

Add to that the salary, the staffing levels, the lack of call-outs on days off, the predictable roster, and the availability of quick, cheap and easy travel, and you'll see why I'm over here with quite a few other Aussies.

Should anyone be interested in any specific information on the working conditions that are currently enjoyed by Dubai ATCs, drop us a line, and I'll pass on what I can.

I usually treat flamebaits like car crashes and the afore-mentioned bitch fights - it's best to just turn away, ignore them and concentrate on what's really important.

Ooroo...