SDSR - Redundancy Package?

[Blighter Pilot]

Changes of this magnitude cannot be managed through normal manning regulators - a redundancy package will be offered for Service personnel


Any ideas of what the package might be?

I think there may be a lot more than 5000 personnel applying for the package and voting with their feet.

Our best resources are our people - if they all walk from key areas then it doesn't matter what aircraft we have if we can't fly or maintain them:mad:

A very black day for our Services - an armed militia post-Afghan

[tommee_hawk]

Couldn't agree more - if anyone thinks these cuts (sorry, review) are the end, wait until withdrawal from Herrick. These will seem like paper cuts compared to the hatchet job then.

Mr Cameron - "This is a not a cost saving exercise – it is about taking the right decisions to protect our national security in the times ahead." Oh really?

"The MOD will face significant challenges in the year ahead. " Nicht scheisse, Sherlock! :bored:

"We will double our investment in aid for unstable countries" That's good - we don't have money for adequate defence, policing (just wait for that news), the NHS but we do have money to prop up extremely dodgy regimes. :ouch:

I'm so glad I don't have long to go - probably......

[Willard Whyte]

We were briefed that circa 2500 would be from 'natural wastage', the remainder through redundancy.

I hear 5AC will receive a visitation in the not to distant future, the rest of us are battening down the hatches and pretending not to notice.

[Green Bottle 2]

DINs published on MOD intranet website now. Full single service details of target audience published in next 6 months.

[Aggro]

Have just checked MOD site - last package 3 years ago said 18 months pay based on rank (not flying pay) if you have 5 or more years left to an exit date, assuming 13 years completed since age 18. 15 months pay with 4 years left, 11 months for 3 years, 7 for 2, 3 for 1. Also says they were agreeing changes to the redundancy package post April 2010 so should be less than this, given lack of cash about! Feeling a bit punch-drunk so far!:} Assuming 12 years served, officers to get immediate pension even if not reached their IPP.

BA are recruiting!!!:ok:

[Junglydaz]

The Armed Forces redundancy package has been changed by the government very recently (coincidence? :=). It is now around 9 months pay, or if fully pensionable 6 months pay. I will look for the link.

[Grabbers]

Well that sounds depressingly plausible. There's that one way street - loyalty.

[North Front]

From what I read it appears that AFPS 05 people will be covered by Armed Forces Redundancy Scheme 06 (I think 12 mnths pay) and those on APFPS 2010 will be covered by AFRS 2010 (9 months pay before Mar 2013 then 3 months).... different terms before IPP. Both AFRS available on tinterweb via google

[nav attacking]

Not sure it was the Armed Forces Redundancy package that was changed. Statutory Redundancy terms were changed as labour left the house, however terms agreed under the acceptance of AFCS06 have not yet been changed i.e. 12 months pay if 4yrs left, 9 mnths for 3yrs, 6 for 2 etc. I don't think terms of service can be changed just like that without a fight.

Don't think much for those wishing to join up in the future or those accepting a change of TOS due to promotion etc. I suspect any new pension and compensation terms will be very poor. I had also heard that Sqn Ldrs aren't being offered service to 55 now as a matter of course on promotion...

[Lima Juliet]

It's all in here The Armed Forces (Redundancy, Resettlement and Gratuity Earnings Schemes) Order 2010 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/345/contents/made)

From what I can see for those with more than 3 years to serve and after an immediate pension point it is as follows:

AFPS75: tax free 6 months pay plus tax free gratuity and then normal pension.

AFPS05: tax free 9 months pay plus tax free gratuity and then normal pension.

Watch out though, all changes to 3 months pay on 1 Apr 2013! :eek:

LJ

[Capt Kremin]

Australia is chronically short of fast-jet pilots for anyone who is quick on their feet!

[Lima Juliet]

for anyone who is quick on their feet

Is that because you're short of entries for the 100m sprint at the 2012 Olympics?

:E

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Desk officers will be focussing on the Sick, Lame, Lazy and Incompetent


I'll believe it when I see it. While it would be great to cut out the SLLI cadre (pace those who have been genuinely damaged/broken by doing the job), these people (ie the genuine slackers) are often very good at knowing how to avoid being got rid of! Perhaps because they spend all their time and effort studying exactly what their rights/entitlements are, while the rest of us do all the hard work! From what I've seen, the average Desk O has too little time/experience to deal with them, so I worry that in 5 years' time there will still be far too many wasters! Just my tuppence worth of course...

[Capt Kremin]

We always are.... fortunately we do rather well in the pool! ;) (I won't mention the C'wealth games medal count in the interests of decorum either...)

Slots would be limited in the RAAF, we can't take everyone but they have some good kit right now and more coming. Summer is just around the corner as well. You could be on the winning side of the next Ashes series!!

Whilst China still needs our coal and iron-ore, there is no sign of a recession here. Just FYI.

Anyone need the address of Australia House?? ;)

[occhips]

SLC - I love your approach to this - i happen to be a highly competent individual who would not consider myself "sick lame and lazy" but i am now the proud owner of some highclass metal work in my ankle. Thus, i will be in the next few months downgraded ( and who knows even got rid of) at Henlow. It certainly is not my preferred route of exit from an RAF that has done a lot for me and even promoted me on numerous occasions!

Before you proffer your thoughts next time, stop and think about what you are saying. It might all be green on your lawn, but there are many people who owing to circumstances beyond their control are poorly. Would you class friends of mine as sick lame and lazy who have lost legs or body parts in the Gulf or Afghanistan?

well and truly on the hook tonight!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

occhips,

I don't think at all that SLC was referring to you or those others like you who have worked hard and been broken as a result. I suspect he was referring to those who are "on the sick" ie those who fabriacte or exaggerate, but I'm sure he'll confirm?

[GlobalTravellerAT]

I agree that SLC was purely talking about those that are swinging the lead. My neighbour at a secret base in Oxfordshire was supposed to go OOA to MPA of all places and couldn't as she had had such an awful pregnancy with her now 3 yr old daughter. Believe it was her hips that she suddenly needed physio for, after receiving her paperwork to go. OOA deferred and subsequently has had bambino number 2. Now call it coincidence but if You ask me then she and others like it are the ones that should initially make up some of the 5000 to go!!

GT

[Saintsman]

I agree that SLC was purely talking about those that are swinging the lead. My neighbour at a secret base in Oxfordshire was supposed to go OOA to MPA of all places and couldn't as she had had such an awful pregnancy with her now 3 yr old daughter. Believe it was her hips that she suddenly needed physio for, after receiving her paperwork to go. OOA deferred and subsequently has had bambino number 2. Now call it coincidence but if You ask me then she and others like it are the ones that should initially make up some of the 5000 to go!!


Do that and I'm sure there would be a big unfair dismissal case claiming sexual discrimination :rolleyes: She'd then get an even bigger pay off.

[Willard Whyte]

Obviously see no problem getting rid of the 'sick lame and lazy' as long as all the t055ers go into the blender too.

[Jumping_Jack]

Well, according to the DIN on the subject the redundancy scheme will be running in 2014 to release folks in 2015. Ties in nicely with the Redundancy Scheme changing in 2013 reducing payments to 3 months pay. W**kers. :uhoh:

[just another jocky]

Well, according to the DIN on the subject the redundancy scheme will be running in 2014 to release folks in 2015. Ties in nicely with the Redundancy Scheme changing in 2013 reducing payments to 3 months pay. W**kers. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif

I read it as the third of three tranches of redundancy will run in 2014. Easy decision; get out in tranche 1 or 2! :ok:

[Prop-Ed]

I haven’t heard any banter about thinning out the Senior Officers in all of this. Are we about to lose 5000 Indians just to leave the huge numbers of chiefs sitting pretty?

[4321]

Well the government bangs on about being Fair, How come they have changed the military terms of redundancy but not those for the civil servants? Maybe because their union challenged changes to their package and won. I wonder if an individual who was made redundant in the military would have a case in court?

[AR1]

My wife worked for the Civil Service and I'm pretty sure they changed their T&C's last year too. Interestingly under the last government. Our thoughts at the time were 'here come the redundancies' - She left of her own free will anyway - too much work too few staff. Too many managers.

As for the cuts, having been there in the 90's, there were no shortage of takers, the difficulty now is that there are no jobs. Or very few, and those that are there have the pick of the field - listing transferable skills on a CV in today's job market just doesn't cut it. I've been applying for jobs now for over a year and haven't had a single interview. Prior to 2005 my application to interview ratio wasn't far off 100%. Tough times.
Best of luck to those making the break, but not too sure that my exit strategy of voluntary first tranche is the right one in this market.

EDIT: No the changes were fought off. Wife say's - A lot of them deserve the axe, many of the long termers did bugger all, and wouldn't leave of their own accord because of the pension rights, and the management wouldn't deal with them. New starters from private roles tended to have the work shoved onto them because they weren't tooled up mentally for that environment.

[SRENNAPS]

I haven’t heard any banter about thinning out the Senior Officers in all of this

I believe there might be one who runs the Oil Risbridger Policy Command Centre (Used to be run by a Cpl; but now run by an AVM). This loss is due to the fact that the RAF now only needs 3 oil risbridgers to maintain its fleet of aircraft and the post is being down graded to a Wg Cdr. "This also saves money" a spokesman for the RAF was heard to say.

[charliegolf]

Proposals for civil servants (they will go through)

14 month voluntary scheme or 10 month compulsory scheme

are 12 and 9 months respectively. Whilst the previous scheme was good, 7 years pay is stretching the story a bit. Three would be in the ball park.

CG

[teeteringhead]

I always thought CS redundancy was one month per year served - can't remember if that was voluntary or compulsory. (Maybe voluntary?)

Otherwise, unless your AO had done 84 years .......

[Aeronut]

Quote:
I haven’t heard any banter about thinning out the Senior Officers in all of this

I believe there might be one who runs the Oil Risbridger Policy Command Centre (Used to be run by a Cpl; but now run by an AVM). This loss is due to the fact that the RAF now only needs 3 oil risbridgers to maintain its fleet of aircraft and the post is being down graded to a Wg Cdr. "This also saves money" a spokesman for the RAF was heard to say.

Cpl SRENNAPS

WTF? Have you been drinking from that Risbridger again?

[SRENNAPS]

WTF? Have you been drinking from that Risbridger again?

If I was still in I would have been drinking a cocktail mix of OX26, OM15 and Skydrol since Tuesday:eek::sad:

[Canadian Break]

Chaps, details of the scheme are already available via the MOD web page - and presumably on the individual services web pages. There are two schemes - one for those who remained on AFPS 75, and one for those that transferred to the new scheme. I have only looked (briefly) at the 75 scheme - and even them only at the details for those coming to the end of their service, and it goes something like this: more than one year left, but less than 2 = 3 months salary (tax free) + 1/12 of 3 months salary for each additional month: 2 to 3 years = 6 months salary and more than 3 years = 9 months salary (plus 1/12 etc). Pretty sure these details are correct but to confirm them I would need to log onto JPA again tomorrow and, to be quite honest, I have lost the will to live where that particular piece of (**)IT is concerned. Hope this helps. CB

[Aeronut]

When talking about 'years left' do you mean to end of current engagement eg 38 for a flt lt and 55 for a sqn ldr? Does time to option point make any difference? Do 44 points still exist?

[Pontius Navigator]

Have they published the brackets? Like ranks, trades and branches, ages etc?

[Biggus]

PN,

Get real - that will be weeks away. RAF Manning only started working on it on Tuesday....

[Aeronut]

Get real - that will be weeks away. RAF Manning only started working on it on Tuesday....

Weeks ?......get real - that will be 6 months away - the DIN says so.

Then months of agonising waiting and then the wait for the exit date to arrive in 2014.

[Biggus]

Up to 6 months, and that is weeks (26 of them!).

As for redundancy, once again talk is of 3 tranches (I hate that word) with 6 months notice to volunteers, 12 months for compulsaries. Given that the numbers have to be achieved by 2015 (April? It usually is.), working backwards tranche 3 can't be later than 2014 (given the 12 months time lag), with the first 2 tranches somewhen between mid 2011 and 2014......

[Pontius Navigator]

Biggus, apologies. Having been through 2 or 3 previous culls I forgot the length of the uncertainty although I recall from a day ago the mention of 150 sqn ldrs.

I was at Finningley when we had the peace dividend cull and the heads down, corridor muttering while they worke dout how to restructure a training system based on 10-12 studes per month when we had to lose even more personnel from 89k to 57k.

[ghostnav]

On some threads I have seen some real rubbish stated. First I recommend anyone who wants to know facts speaks to someone authorised - a professional pension authority perhaps? For what it is worth:

On AFPS 75, over 3 years to serve - 9 mths pay: 2 to 3 years 6 mths and 1 to 2 years 3 mths. Less than a year is 1/12 of 3 mths pay for every month remaining.

The 6 mth pay limit is only for those who have a FULL pension entitlement - that is someone who has extended in the Service say now 56 and had a 5 year extension. So instead of getting 9 mths as he has 4 years remaining will only get a max of 6 mth pay. Watch as from 1 Apr 2013 ALL will get a max of 3 mths pay!!

Finally, the Civil Service 2010 Redundancy Pay is already out this year. There will not be another. They get 9 mths if forced out, and wait for it, 21 mths if you volunteer. Not sure if that is tax free or not.

[Chicken Leg]

Desk officers will be focussing on the Sick, Lame, Lazy and Incompetent when making the recommendations for natural wastage and compulsory redundancy. Med boards will be cut and dried, the thing that is reassuring is that the reverse prom boards should get rid of the dross

That would get rid of significantly more than 2400 - closer to 24000!!

[Solent Trout]

DIN from the mod website:

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/33B5F9BA-FFEC-4922-A793-48D1A211A130/0/20101019DIN201001188ArmedForcesRedundancyScheme2010Provision s.pdf

Wonder whether the payments take flying pay into account.....

[Army Mover]

Wonder whether the payments take flying pay into account.....

I guess it will depend on whether flying pay is regarded as the "pay" refered to in your link. Does/did flying pay count towards pensions before this? I suspect that if given a choice, that whoever is driving this will opt for the lowest cost option.

[whiskers123]

From my research (and I'm on the 05 pension so 06 redundancy package) for me it'd be whichever is the least of the following:

Final relevant earnings (FRE) as calculated for EDP (ie: not including specialist pay) divided by 8 then multiplied by number of years and days served to 4 decimal places.

OR

FRE divided by 8 then multiplied by number of years and days remaining in service if not redundancy wasn't on the cards.

So, if I joined as Sgt aircrew in 2004 (I did!) I'd be looking at about £29800 as a lump sum (based on Sgt level 5 as FRE and 2016 as planned exit date) and a preserved pension of £11600 lump sum and £3800 p/a.

The chapters in the JSP for AFRS 75 leaving after 6 Apr 2010 state they are 'Deliberately Blank - Rules Yet To Be Published'.

I hope that this is some use to people but I'd suggest that you have a look at JSP 764 Part 5 and please, I'm no expert, so don't base you're calculations on mine as they may well be wrong! Good luck....

[Jayand]

Flying pay is not included I have been reliably told, and that brings up another interesting point, how safe is flying pay/PA, PM said op allowance will remain but other millitary allowances will be reviewed.
On a ground tour? receiving flying pay? we will see.

[Willard Whyte]

Doubt whether PA would be at risk* - depending on how long one has been on that pay spine of course.

Anything's possible in the current climate though.

*That is with regard to whether PA pay is taken into account when calculating the pay-off. or whether it will revert to basic + flying pay.

[SRENNAPS]

ghostnav:

Finally, the Civil Service 2010 Redundancy Pay is already out this year. There will not be another. They get 9 mths if forced out, and wait for it, 21 mths if you volunteer. Not sure if that is tax free or not.

Do you have any further information on this because my other half who works at some minor MOD place near Britol P'way can’t seem to find anything and it was not mentioned in the brief they had yesterday??

They were, however, told that there will be more that one package and the rules for the later package would mean a considerably less amount of wonga.

Have to say that 21 months of my wife’s pay would still be pretty measly in the big scheme of things, but hey ho.

Thanks

[Gloria Finis]

Oh I dont know mate......

As a PAS navigator I am feeling very venerable at the moment!! :mad:

[Jumping_Jack]

Are you sure you aren't a Chaplain?!!

[Willard Whyte]

Most of us are venerable, but are we vulnerable?

[Mr C Hinecap]

I was thinking more venereal, but that might just be me being a clever dick! :}

[Willard Whyte]

金鸡独立

I'll leave you to translate.

[radar101]

Finally, the Civil Service 2010 Redundancy Pay is already out this year. There will not be another. They get 9 mths if forced out, and wait for it, 21 mths if you volunteer. Not sure if that is tax free or not.


Ah but because of these new rules, now they have to wait 'til 60 to draw their pension (or 55 if they opt to lose ~ 25% of it) - provided they have served their 22/16 years, a member of the AFPS75 can draw theirs immediately with no penalty!!

Also it is up to 9 or 21 months - 1 month per year service I believe.

[covec]

Please forgive me for posting again here.

Is it the case that if you are made redundant whilst on AFPS05, AND you already have earned a Pension due to age & length of Service, you would get a Pension Gratuity AND a Redundancy payment plus your EDP?

E.g. nearing 50, done over 25 years, passed IPP and signed onto 55 as PAS i.e. 6 years to do:

1. If you jump:EDP plus Gratuity.

2. If pushed:EDP plus Gratuity plus 12 months Redundancy????

2a. If pushed just EDP plus Redundancy payment and no Gratuity i.e. Gratuity "forfeited" for one lump sum payment of 12 months pay.

I have contacted the Pensions Society and JPAC, but JPAC cannot help until "all details and criteria are known" and the POC at the Society is back next week.

Good Luck to you all.

[Biggus]

2.... although I can't guarantee it is 12 months redundancy payment!






Also 1 is only correct if you PVR. If you apply for voluntary redundancy you will get some form of redundancy payment as well as EDP + gratuity!

[covec]

Just this Once.

I'm on about the lump sum that you get on leaving the Service after or at your IPP under AFPS05.

Then of course you also get the monthly "pension"(EDP) payments again after or at your IPP.

However, if you are made redundant under this SDSR, having already served enough time to get a lump sum plus monthly "pension"(EDP), would you also get a redundancy lump sum in addition to the above?

(Under AFPS05 if you leave before your IPP you get a reduced lump sum if you will based on three times your deferred pension which is payable from age 65. You also get reduced monthly "pension"(EDP), payments until age 65. You also get a second lump sum at age 65.

If you left at 55 - under AFPS05 - you would get a single lump sum based on three times your monthly pension - and a (very) generous monthly "pension"(EDP), payout.

I edited this as Biggus was transmitting!!! Sorry!!!

[Biggus]

JTO

If you're not on 05 it doesn't really bother you - and I seem to have spent the last 5 years explaining to people what AFPS 05 is all about, but here we go again....

The government changed the rules, so you can't claim a pension before the age of 55, so AFPS introduced EDP. EDP is effectively a "pension", it looks like a pension, walks like a pension and sounds like a pension. If you have qualified for an immediate EDP then, just like a pension under AFPS75, YOU ARE PAID IT FROM THE DAY YOU LEAVE.

The calculation of the value of EDP is more complicated, depending on when you leave. It is % value of your ultimate "pension". However, if you are AFPS05 and you leave having earned a pension, but before 55, you get a gratuity of 3 x "pension", and a paid monthly EDP of a certain % of that "pension" figure. You also get a second gratuity, of 3 x "pension", index linked (but probably at CPI now) when you reach 65....

It gets even more complicated than that, and I have tried to keep the explanation simple for brevity, but hopefully that explains the principle.

[Biggus]

covec,

If you have qualified for an immediate pension then you get an accompanying gratuity - the two are linked!! :)


Although I hate to say it, use the pension calculator, it will show you exactly (including a nice graphic) how much you will get, and when.

Any redundancy payment is on top of that, and any redundancy programme does not remove any of you earned rights under the pension scheme!

[covec]

But would "they" also give you a redundancy lump sum too if pushed?

If I find that one out I will post here too - although Biggus is well up to speed and seems to think so - thanks Biggus.

[Biggus]

covec,

If you can get on the intranet and find a copy of JSP 764, PAGE 5-2-5 includes an example (example 3) of someone leaving after EDP 18/40 point with at least 4 years uncompleted service.

It calculates the compensation figure (redundancy payment) and specifies "other benefits" as:

EDP lump sum (i.e. gratuity)
EDP income payable immediately.


It's in black and white in the JSP, you get your gratuity if made redundant. You have earned the immediate gratuity as part of your pension rights, they don't take it away if they make you redundant.

[covec]

OK, thanks for that.

I will try to redirect people here from the new thread that I had started.

JTO - I assume that AFPS75 still gives you guys a lump sum payable on leaving - if you have reached or passed your IPP? If so, then my query also relates to you if made redundant.

[Biggus]

While I don't have details of AFPS75 redundancy payments to hand, the general principle still applies that, in earning an immediate pension you have also earned the accompanying gratuity.

No redundancy scheme takes that away, rather it simply compensates you (possibly inadequately) for your loss of earnings due to your early terminated employment.

[Lima Juliet]

No need for the intranet fella, here you go:

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/8FD3CD96-0519-49A9-9C9F-1090C494CA99/0/20100401JSP764Part5Amdtno3.pdf

Good luck

LJ

[covec]

Jaba - thanks for the link. It is pretty clear cut.

The size of the Redundancy payment is the issue for me now - as it is for all of us I guess in a similar situation to mine i.e. oldie, passed IPP & on the PAS at a high level.

Of course they could need the experience and accept the higher wage bills....

I still think that staying in to age 55 is still the best financial decision though IF you still have a big mortgage AND are overpaying in these low interest times.

Despite my asking for clarification on this issue, I will not volunteer for redundancy because I still want to be a part of the military - stupid I know - and the primary reason behind not trying to go civvy as a "self-improver"..

[Good Mickey]

Excellent link, thanks very much, cleared up much confusion. Couldn't help but notice in the fine detail that sickies will not be offered reduncancy if they can be medically discharged.

GM

[whiskers123]

Just been reading through the Offer To Transfer booklet issued when they had us make the decision between AFPS 75 & 05 as, on page 29, concerning EDP it presents the problem:

If I transfer to AFPS 05 my length of engagement / commission is less than 18 years. Is anything being done about this?

It answers:

Yes. All three services have agreed that those who transfer to AFPS 05 will be able to extend in service so as to reach the EDP 18/40 point.

I joined in 2004 on a 12 year engagment so, if I'm looking at redundancy, my expected leaving date would be 2016. Now, reading the above paragraph, does this mean my expected leaving date would be 2023 as that would be me at age 40 with 19 years service (both EDP criteria met) because I transferred from AFPS 75 to 05 and I have the book which makes the above statement? This would make a huge difference to me if redundancy was an option and to many others too I guess.

Thoughts or opinions please! Cheers, W

[day1-week1]

whiskers123

Alas I fear not,

You may find that you will lumped into the pot known 'natural wastage'. At present you are on a 12 year contact, a big factor in this drawn-down is not signing people on past there their existing contractual term. The new pension scheme doesn't give a automatic right to full service over and beyond normal ToS as that's what the initial signing on period is for, the AF ability to reduce numbers as required. Also if made redundant, you would expect to leave before 2016 as they've shorten your contract, if you leave in 2016 then you would simply leave the AF as normal.

Hope that helps although I appreciate its probably not the answer you were after

[whiskers123]

Hi day1week1 thanks for your reply. I imagined that would be the case but it's worth a punt! It does quite categorically state that those who transferred to AFPS 05 would be able to extend in service so would now be the time to hold them to it? Then see if I was offered redundancy?

Do you see where I'm going here - either they keep me in until 18/40 (very happy) or they make me redundant after having extended my engegement to the 18/40 point (happy).

[Pottermus]

Im confused at the moment as dont know where I'll stand!, I am on the old pension scheme and am due to finish my 22 in Jul 2017.
Will I have enough time to transfer to a new A/C and get promoted to be able to get signed on to 55, doubtfull due to training time, so what would the redundancy scheme offer me or would they even look at me for it!:confused:

[day1-week1]

I'd be very surprised if you could hold them to it as service past 12 years involves being 'boarded' and all that in-tails (ability, OJARS etc). It would be wrong to have a 'pass' when others were effectively in competition with each other.

On a more pos note, your exit date is after 2015. Whenever there's been a mass cull in the past, there has always been a huge shortage afterwards with the service desperate to retain people. Also the the next SDR is in 2015 so it could be all change by then.

My view is that in your position you are probably safe, they won't want to make you redundant as you still 'owe' them 6 years service and it won't cost them much when you leave at 12 years. Just don't expect much job security between now and then.

[Pottermus]

No Im at my 16 year point not my 12 so get my gratuity and pension in 2017. so not too sure if I am safe!

[day1-week1]

Sorry Pottermus, I was replying to W123. If its any consolation Potts, so long as you've done more than 12 years, you get the proportion of your pension FROM THE DAY YOU LEAVE. So the key thing is to hang onto year 12, which potentially means a pension from as young as thirty to the day you die. For a NCA Sgt this could mean aprox £5000 a year, ten years earlier than normal. No doubt someone somewhere is going through JPA looking for people to stiff before they can get to their 12 year point.

As for getting onto a new fleet, I think that ship may have sailed. All other fleets have no-where near as many NCA per crew as the Nimrod. Flying post are going to be few and far between for a while.

[Jayand]

Day 1 I think you are right there are going to be very few flying slots available for NCA, so what are the RAF going to do with them?
I fear that the RAF will make a lot of them redundant especially those older ones.
Perhaps re branching or commisioning in a non flying role might be offered to some but the rest?

[Biggus]

What do they do with the aircrew, both NCA and officers, at Kinloss?

There is no aircraft for them to fly, and nothing for them to do. If any are going to be made redundant it won't be for about 18 months at the earliest (6 months for RAF to sort its life out, for Tranche 1, and 12 months notice of compulsary redundancy). Given that the RAF will want to stop operating from Kinloss well within 18 months, and presumably doesn't want all these aircrew sitting around, being paid a considerable amount of money, doing nothing - what is it to do with them?

Could someone be posted, say to Waddington, only to find a month or so later that they have been made redundant?

[day1-week1]

Whilst I'm glad I'm not at kinloss at the moment as they face the greatest uncertainty, I don't anyone at waddo is that much safer. The drawn down will take years not months, which is more than enough time for postings to come to an end. Also whilst it's harder to shoehorn people into flying roles, ground tours can easily be swapped around to employ the people you want to keep. Regardless of location, I imagine there will be a pecking order of those to go first to the wall. Anyone on 'reserved rights', sat in a non flying job they been doing for years without any intention of returning to flying would be my first choice.

[Biggus]

d1-w1,

First of all I am only going through a few thoughts I have had, and my wife has been nagging me about - I don't want to start a "my situation is worse than yours" slanging match with anyone, all of us have our problems I'm sure...

I appreciate that many aircrew are potentially vulnerable - I wasn't ignoring that (and good luck to everyone in the months to come). However, the aircrew at Kinloss are unique in one respect - their airbase is about to disappear from under them, and probably pretty damn quickly.

While people at Waddington (continuing to use that as just an example) may be vulnerable, for either a move or worse case redundancy, at least they will stay at Waddington until their fate is decided. People at Kinloss will (probably) be moved on within the next 6 months (who knows what to, possibily even holding or non jobs) as the RAF element at Kinloss closes - before Manning has fully worked out the plot I suspect, since voluntary redundancies will probably not yet be finalized. They could then find out a few months later that they are moving again, or even made redundant - so they face a double whammy. What is the alternative - send all the aircrew at Kinloss on gardening leave (possibly up to 18 months) while RAF Manning sorts its life out. I can't see that happening - can you?

Throw in moving a wife and children, maybe trying to sell a house in an area where the bottom has just fallen out of the market, etc. If I were given a choice of where I would rather be at the moment, no matter how uncertain my future might be, of either Waddington or Kinloss, it wouldn't be hard to pick....

[Al R]

If the military encourages personnel to buy a house through LSAP and JSHAO etc, does it also recognise that subsequently clobbering a local housing market (such as Kinloss/Lossie) almost overnight, is also going to disadvantage those people it sought to help?

Genuine question - is there provision in place to compensate for loss of value in such circumstances as redundancy/closure?

[FFP]

I don't think it does (but don't quote me) The US do. In the case of a move (PCS) you can "sell" your house to the government who then "sell" it on at a loss. You get to walk away from being upside down on your mortgage, but you also don't own anything.

Simplified but that's the deal in essence.

[Grabbers]

So, which trades/ranks are people anticipating taking the brunt of redundancies? PJI's look on shaky ground, as do a lot of PTI's depsite their 'too little, too late' attaching themselves to RAF Regt Sqns. A new tri-service 'police' service would also see a lot of speed trappers relieved of their duties. Or would a RAF wide cull of the Sick, Lame Lazy & draft dodgers be preferred?

[gijoe]

Al R,

The system does not provide a mortgage parachute...nor, in my opinion, should it!

LSAP is there to help purchase somewhere to live for the day when you are no longer in receipt of a salary which includes an element to compensate you for short notice moves and the events of service life.

...or have some of those that have been at the Ice Station or one of the AT bases for the last 10 years, whilst being more concerned with the longevity of their CEA claims, forgotten this?

Station closes - people move on, life goes on. If you don't like it then leave.

G:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Gijoe, may be harsh and may be true but fair?

There were insufficient quarters.

Even if you had your own house you could still be posted - in the 70s there was the Kinloss-St Mawgan shuttle. Now you had a case about CEA for those that were posted to ISK but retained their mansion/boarding house in Newquay although I don't know enogh to say they also claimed BSA(CEA).

ISK was a foreign posting for us and no way would we have expected to remain in our own house forever.

I didn't look at LSAP (or whatever it was in the past) as it did not seem to be for us and didn't give much anyway.

Now on house sales at ISK we got lucky as the prices in England were dropping while the prices in Moray were still buoyant. Now with Moray prices presumably suddenly dropping it has to be a buyers market. He who prices his house best wins.

But, and here is the next issue, where do you buy down south if you don't know if you have a future or where you may find employment. It really is a rock and a hard place.

[Al R]

gijoe,

I wasn't thinking of me. The aim of LSAP is twofold; firstly, 'to assist eligible personnel to enter the housing market'; and secondly, 'to help a need arising from changing personal circumstances during a career'. If the military advances cash, based on helping a serviceman during a career, and if it then decides that it doesn't want that serviceman for economic reasons, and causes hardship, then there might be extenuating grounds for possible write off (such as there are if a serviceman is declared bankrupt).

Service in one place is a two way deal; the RAF is happy and so is the individual so lets not hold it solely against one party. Telling someone they are not needed AND then financially disadvantaging them, based on where they might be discharged from, is unfair. Kinloss/Lossie has a huge impact in such a small and fragile local economy - its not like someone being made redundant from,for example, Northolt, where civvy employment may be just down the road and/or the local housing market is far more resilient.

Redundancy should not be such a blunt instrument, especially when it might impact Sqn Ldr 'A' and her family far more than Sqn Ldr 'B' and his - simply based on their respective locations at the time of being made jobless.

[muttywhitedog]

So, which trades/ranks are people anticipating taking the brunt of redundancies? PJI's look on shaky ground, as do a lot of PTI's depsite their 'too little, too late' attaching themselves to RAF Regt Sqns. A new tri-service 'police' service would also see a lot of speed trappers relieved of their duties. Or would a RAF wide cull of the Sick, Lame Lazy & draft dodgers be preferred?

A few air officers for starters.
Then a few Gp Capts
Then quite a lot of Wg Cdrs & Sqn Ldrs
FJ Pilots & Navs - particularly those who only fly desks.
90% of nimrod-related aircrew. The other 10% can re-train.

Approx 800 from this lot.

Then...

TG1 will take a bit of a kicking - maybe 500 in total.

MTD, Clerks & Suppliers. Proportional to the number of bases which will close (ie 20 per trade for each base that closes and a few from HQ Air). Other trades also on a proportional, but lesser basis). Civilianise 50% of VIP support posts.

Photogs, PTIs & Stewards - almost dead trades. Get rid of 50%.

Approx 2500 redundancies.

[Pontius Navigator]

Armourers will take a hit especially torpedo experts or CRV7. In fact the knight of the long nives will be a bit like the loss of the marine branch.

Will the RAF even retain a maritime cadre in Group or Air?

The 2500 postulated by mutty may well be a gross underestimate. A number of light blue posts at RN units will be redundant. Probably a lot of maritime posts in the NATO HQs as well. With no light blue maritime air they would have no raision d'etre or credibility.

[SirToppamHat]

egdg:
What do they normally look at? Is it purely on time to go, or do they actually get the ACRs out and put people in an order (ike a promotion board)?


It's a few years ago that I sat on some redundancy boards (RAF Regt and Chefs and PIs if memory serves).

At the point where the Board sat, the decision had already been made about nos for the particular TG we were sifting, and we were presented only with those who qualified for redundancy. So we were probably looking for, say, 30 from a volunteer stack of 200.

YES, the SJARs (Sorry 6442s) were out on the desk for us. In Three Piles (ALL VOLUNTEERS):

1. People who wanted redundancy, but who had no particular skills we needed and could be released immediately without impact on the Service.

2. People with special skills for which the Service had a significant shortage. For example, RAF Regt FS1 Rapier instructors; the RAF had moved to FS2 Rapier, and the trg for their instructors had been so successful (mis-managed?) that there were hardly any FS1 instructors left, but there was still a small number of units on FS1 waiting to upgrade.

3. People with special cases, normaly laid out in their letters of application. For example, ISTR one chap had a child with a severe physical disability. He was an excellant tradesman and would almost certainly have been looking at promotion if he were not successful with his application; retention in the Service also had significant costs associated with MQ conversion each time he moved, and ISTR he had letters of support from his bosses and even the Staish.

We started with the first pile and did a prom board based on the preceeding 4-years of reports. We also checked letters of application for special cases. We ended up with a list of people, then reversed it to put the best at the bottom and the worst at the top.

Next, we checked Pile 2 to whether there had been any cock-ups by the deskies regarding the special qualifications and whether we thought there were any special cases from their applications. If so, we moved them into Pile 1 (having scoreded the individual) or into Pile 3 if there was a good case to release.

Finally, we checked Pile 3. This was small and we were looking for cases where genuine hardship might result from not releasing. Almost all of these went to the top of the redundancy pile, but ISTR there were one or 2 that we weren't certain about. Also, I've got a vague recollection that there were people with minor medical conditions which would not get them a discharge, but would neverthess have a negative impact on their ability to progress. Eg Bloggs cannot deploy outside base areas, he is great at his home base, but has no chance of getting a good report because his Unit is one which relies on its deployability.

I have to say I found the whole process to be very fair - though we occasionally had to remind ourselves that these were all volunteers. Also, there were some cock-ups. Eg we had to do the Regt Pile 1 twice because it was only as we got to Pile 2 that they explained the special quals that they were looking for (FS1, Mortar instructor and grenade instructor I think), at which point we each recalled seeing examples of these in Pile 1. It had taken more than a whole day to sort this the first time, though it was quicker the second time.

Letters of support were very important for those with special cases.

Of course this was many years ago in the 90s and there may have been changes to the modern procedures (and Toppam's memory isn't all it was), but I hope it was useful. I would like to sign-off by explaining why I've taken the time to write all this - it's because we're moving house soon and I have to sort out the garage. The weather is IMC and I'm putting it off (Mrs T thinks I am working). Now that I am finished, it's still raining, but I am rapidly running out of excuses. Washing up next!

STH

[Wrathmonk]

STH

To try to drag out your 'working' a bit longer

You say all yours were volunteers. Do you know if there was any attempt to look at any 'compulsory' cases as well (i.e. those put forward by the deskies as a waste of rations) or was it a case of volunteers demand exceeding requirement therefore there was no need (or even that it was against the law) to put forward any compulsories into 'the mix'?

Oh, and buy a dish washer for your new house!

[Party Animal]

Thank you STH for that interesting vignette. However, this time round and in the case of Kinloss, I suspect that the numbers may be reversed i.e, 200 will have to go and only 30 will volunteer?

[SirToppamHat]

Thanks for your concern, but in the end I had to go to the garage. Have now sneaked back in after re-fitting cupboard into kitchen (had to remove so we could get the fridge in - fridge now in hall awaiting removals in 3 weeks -ish); next occupant will need to do same, probably. Actually upstairs looking for the number for Britannia removals, which is somewhere in my Inbox. Anyone used the new system yet? It's computerised (apart from all the bits that aren't) and "Computer says no".

Have a dishwasher, but can't bear to fill it with 4 pans and a couple of K & Fs unlike Memsahib.

Back to the thread. Difficult to say what will happen this time. There was no suggestion at all about compulsory redundancy last time I got involved, but I think there may have been some since. I think it will be some time before we know exactly what's going on. Lossie is a case in point.

For what it's worth, I think the change in packages is a ****ty trick, but it seems to be the way the RAF is going; we're being driven towards civvy T&Cs with no consultation and I am pretty sure the powers that be have long since lost control in this area. The AFPRB recently visited a Unit I have since left. I have to say I was astonished by their attitude, which was basically that there is no money to look after us (you), so tough poo.

STH

[larssnowpharter]

There was no suggestion at all about compulsory redundancy last time I got involved, but I think there may have been some since.

Thanks STH for your insight.

There is another way things happen. Back in the mid 90s cull, I got the job (thanks a lot boss you barsteward) of briefing around 100 SACs of what was happening. One thing was a freeze on promotion to Cpl.

Many of these guys were coming up to their 12 yr point, had a couple of '8's and a Spec Rec.

Were they bitter? No. Of course not! They understood the need to bow to the Peace Dividend that the Guvmint had promised taxpayers. (Please insert irony chip here).

On a more personal note, I found the terms then very attractive and applied to go. Wasn't accepted. Many letters, a redress and in the end PVRd. Never regretted it as I thought that we were doing things wrong and not seeing the bigger picture.

The fact is that those who volunteer to go under the various reduncy schemes in the past are those who seek advantage from it. As a generalization, they are confident that they will make it in Civvy St.

Perhaps a case for a closer look at those who don't volunteer?

[Wrathmonk]

Perhaps a case for a closer look at those who don't volunteer

Precisely the point I was leading up to - we need to keep the good guys in and let the 'bed blockers' / ops dodgers / CEA claimants (only joking :E) go. Trouble is if you make up your redundancy numbers entirely through compulsory notices to the afore mentioned 'waste of rations' then the chances are a good proportion of the good guys who volunteered to go, but were refused, will end up going down the PVR route anyway thus leading to, effectively, a double hit on manpower strength.

It will be a fine balancing act by Manning and one for which they will get the blame whichever way it goes!

[Biggus]

Wrathmonk,

You are totally correct. Whenever we have a round of voluntary redundancies we go from being overmanned to being undermanned almost immediately.

Why? Well, some of our most competent and confident people decide to take this opportunity to leave and start a new career. They discuss it with the wife and family, all agree, and go ahead and apply for redundancy. They start to make plans on where to move to, details of a second career, maybe start applying for new jobs, make start-up plans for a new business, etc. Then comes the bad news, they haven't been selected for redundancy. However, by now their mind set, and those of their family, is totally focused on making a go of their new life - therefore they elect to leave anyway (PVR). Hence the RAF inevitably loses more people than the number of redundancy posts it had announced and planned for!

[ShortFatOne]

And I know exactly how they feel! Having had chance to think about it for nearly a whole week now, I am starting to realise that the RAF I have busted a gut for over the last 24 years has just smacked me in the teeth, knocked me down (again) and is now trying to do unmentionable things to my private parts!

You know what? I think I have had just about enough. It may not be the fault of the RAF but threatening not to vote for Dave next time round doesn't quite describe the depth of anger, outrage, despair, disappointment, disgust, loss and downright sadness that I feel, not just for myself but for the whole of Kinloss (as well as others around the UK).

[Pontius Navigator]

Aye once you realise the RAF has switched you off and then you decide to switch the RAF off there is no trust and no going back.

Only CEA, a poor package and impending pension would keep many in.

IIRC those within spitting distance of their option points and retirement date will not be offered redundancy. Suppose you have 2 years to go then they will find some stores or desk somewhere for you to rusticate.

[Willard Whyte]

Why? Well, some of our most competent and confident people decide to take this opportunity to leave and start a new career. They discuss it with the wife and family, all agree, and go ahead and apply for redundancy. They start to make plans on where to move to, details of a second career, maybe start applying for new jobs, make start-up plans for a new business, etc. Then comes the bad news, they haven't been selected for redundancy. However, by now their mind set, and those of their family, is totally focused on making a go of their new life - therefore they elect to leave anyway (PVR). Hence the RAF inevitably loses more people than the number of redundancy posts it had announced and planned for!

An interesting perspective, and with an (understandable in these parlous times) less than generous redundancy package it will almost certainly occur. Those who volunteer and are rejected will up sticks anyway.

[Biggus]

PN,

As I have said before, on this and other threads, nobody is going to be out very soon.

It will take Manning at least 6 months (in my option, and based on previous schemes) to staff the numbers required for redundancy, publish a scheme for RAF wide consumption, and allow time for people to apply. Volunteers will get 6 months notice (so that is at least 12 months from now), any compulsary redundancies will get 12 months notice (so that is at least 18 months from now).

Anyone with 3 years or less to do also certainly won't come into the equation, as they will be considered part of natural wasteage.

The issue with the guys at Kinloss is what the RAF does with them in the next 3-4 months, given that they could be out 15 months later..... Keeping them in place, at Kinloss, on gardening leave probably isn't an option - so where do they go? No doubt this is the "rustication" you are referring to...

[Diablo Rouge]

I guess I am not alone in waiting for the T's to be crossed and I's dotted to see if redundancy is for me then. I consider myself to be a borderline case although I am timex in 2014 anyway and may find it not an option. I would be delighted to go with the right renumeration package and feel for everybody left behind even if that does end up including myself. Fingers well and truly crossed, and top level (for me) PA in the bank in 12 months.

[Wrathmonk]

what the RAF does with them in the next 3-4 months

Whilst I understand that military personnel are no longer expected to cover the annual firemans strikes some elements of the Royal Mail are threatening industrial action (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Job-cuts-Strike-vote-for.6598431.jp) that could affect the Christmas postal deliveries ...... even the loss of your aircraft and the possibility of impending redundancy can't save you from Op DENY CHRISTMAS in whatever form it takes! :}

[Jayand]

I am not convinced people in their last couple of years won't get redundancy, yes in years gone by when the package was much larger it would have been counterproductive/expensive to make them redundant.
However since they changed the packages, it is now in many cases very much cheaper to get rid of these people in their last few years than it is to pay them their full wages! Keeping them in, doing some meaningless job that they have little interest or motivation for, whilst perhaps also paying out for seperation or relocation costs is counterproductive/expensive.
The MOD/RAF would also get to balance the manning numbers without losing as many people who wanted to stay in and still had years to offer.

[Hueymeister]

My 5 yr 'apprenticeship' on PA finishes in Jun 2013....redundancy package changes 1 Apr 2013....I might get double-rodgered..or maybe not at all....:\

[lonsdale2]

BIGGUS
"Volunteers will get 6 months notice (so that is at least 12 months from now), any compulsary redundancies will get 12 months notice (so that is at least 18 months from now)."

Where do these figures come from? Is there an official document that states how much notice must be given?

[Biggus]

lonsdale2,

You have a PM....

I am not aware that anything formal has been published yet. I believe that timescales of 6/12 months for volunteer/compulsary were used the last time around and, given that terminal leave and resettlement can take up 3 months, shorter timescales are not likely to be practical....

[just another jocky]

Does JSP 764 Pt 5 not apply then? I had assumed (possibly wrongly) that it's various sections apply to both AFPS 75 and AFPS 05 members from Apr 2010 onwards. :confused: