Owners looking for SFH's / SFH's looking for Aircraft...

[Aucky]

Hi Guys,

I know that there are many private owners who are regular PPRuners, and also many hopeful/potential owners too. I'm wondering if there would be any benefit to developing a SFH database (most likely website format) where owners can opt to list their aircraft, aircraft details (model, age, hours, photos), insurance requirements, any personal stipulations, location (vague if preferred), rate for SFH, minimum daily/weekend hours usage, contact details etc... you get the picture.

I also read of people looking to buy into a syndicate, so a way of networking these people or advertising for shares in aircraft may also be an option?

I see that there are enough people out there who simply want to keep their helicopter to them selves and sleep easy which is great if affordable, and there are enough people who want to flog their aircraft for max training usage which is also their decision, but do most people sit in the middle, and desire some additional revenue generating usage but only from people of a chosen experience level and with the correct attitude?

From the hirers point of view would it not be great to be able to search a database for aircraft in a given location, at the correct specification and rate.

Just putting it out there as a feeler as it's obviously only worth while if the numbers are reasonable to give a good spread of the country, if the numbers were right I'd be happy to investigate the possibilities for the benefit of fellow owners and pilots :ok:

Aucky

(I hope this is not seen as advertising but rather looking for advice from a niche group with a common interest at heart)

[Senior Pilot]

advertising for shares in aircraft may also be an option?

:=

Keep off the advertising, and I'll let it run.

But very closely watched :hmm:

[RMK]

I’d make use of such a database. Would be great for both saving costs and time.

[JTobias]

Sounds a great idea.

Aircraft Grouping at Blackpool have just established a no-equity grouping scheme for helicopters. They will start with 2 x R22 and 1 x R44. Aircraft to be based at Blackpool and Barton initially and then possibly Wolverhampton.

Full online booking etc.

I have my own aircraft so I wont be joining but I have been a member of their fixed wing group for 4 years and its excellent.

Joel :ok:

[Aucky]

Earl - Thankyou, I appreciate the time you have spent considering the possibilities, and in preparing your informed and useful response :D I must say that I agree on all accounts. I didn't want to be over verbose upon starting the thread because it was intended just to test the water, and I conclude two lines of thought thus far, firstly a general agreement the idea in itself could be a useful service to pilots and owners, but secondly the numbers required to justify such an investment of time and money may not be achievable? (of the 400 thread views there have been very few replies, however nobody has been quick to shoot it down, which has been a pleasant surprise).

I agree on the flight testing topic. I had thought the same, a method of a standardised initial flight test (per type) for all participating members, then ongoing check rides, dependent on currency on type, similar to the 28day method used by schools, but realistically, a greater time frame. i.e. check ride each 4-6 months unless you have in the previous 6 months flown 5 hrs on type etc... open to suggestions.

I also agree that a code of conduct, or charter, signed by all participating members, would be a prerequisite to use of the service. I think we are talking on the same wavelength here, I wouldn't want to do this unless it was done properly, and professionally, because I believe that is the only way it could be done successfully, and safely. There is too much at stake for people to be expected to release their aircraft to the hands of unknown pilots without the comfort that there is a serious organisation vetting the prospective hirers, and it goes without saying that there would also be some responsibility on behalf of the owners to make sure that the machine is airworthy and insured etc... and responsibility on behalf of the organisation to maintain it's commitment to standards. Your point regarding PPRuNE is also a good one well received.

It's occurred to me that although my interest lies in helicopters I don't see any reason why this wouldn't also potentially work for the fixed-wing lot too; opening up that market may just widen the audience into a viable service. :E

simondlh - you input is appreciated also, however there is a slight misunderstanding
If I hear you correctly you're looking to develop a website with a search function that allows the user to find SFH schools. You don't need to take bookings or arrange the SFH for them, just display the information.
Although I would not intend to prevent schools from being able to list aircraft available to SFH, we're really talking about opening up the SFH market to other aircraft kept by private owners or syndicates. There would obviously be some requirement to generate a turnover from the site, for which I see a number of possibilities :oh:

To put it simply you need an 'information only' website. Earl's idea would take a monumental amount of effort and time (time is money), it would be like setting up a business

As Earl has pointed out, helicopter owners are going to be unlikely to hire out their aircraft to unknown pilots without the backing of a serious, and respected organisation. And I agree that the only way this can be done is if it's done properly. That doesn't necessitate the ability to take bookings etc, but it does require the backing of a recognised organisation. I agree that the effort required may be vast, but I have time I could allocate to such a project, and a very useful list of connections in webdesign, and good accountants and tax advisers also, so this side of it does not put me off, what would however is a lack of overall demand for the service.

Thanks for you input, I shall be mulling some ideas over for now, and look at some numbers. Any additional thoughts are encouraged.

Aucky :ok:

[JimBall]

I'm not normally Mr Negative. But did you see the recent discussion here on doing leaseback with flying schools etc? You should read it. Not that you're putting your machine at risk - but it will be owned by someone or a group.

If you go ahead you MUST take a hefty deposit from each participant - and if they leave the group that deposit doesn't get returned until 50H have passed.

With no telemetry on R44s, you need to talk with an experienced engineer about how long it takes for pilot-induced faults to surface.

The most common probs:

Start-up throttle open - shows as a move of the blower fan nut. So ensure that each pilot takes a pic of that nut and its white line on finishing his session. And keep those (dated) files safe. An engine overspeed is £20,000+VAT.

Rotor overspeed - normally due to inconsiderate pilot with 4 up and showing off his auto skills. This may not manifest itself in the bearings for another 30-40H. It will require a strip-down and possible bearing replacement. Allow £7,000 worst case.

And there will always be the really stupid, small things caused by inattentive people - mashed door hinges due to leaning down on open doors, scratched windows, wrecked carpets. RHC know how to charge for spares!

A cautionary true tale. An SFH took an R44 off for a trip to his parents one summer. He arrived with the windows covered in dead flies. Next morning, his "up early" Dad decided to help by cleaning the windows of the helicopter. But the flies were baked on - so he got his Brillo pad. One very trashed and opaque screen - and a large bill.

I've seen SFH pilots take-off without warming the engine. I've heard the unmistakeable and sickening sound of an engine being started with the throttle wide open. And I've heard an overspeeding rotor system on final. All of these were followed by innocent denial by the "pilots".

I'm not saying don't do it. But just make sure all possible bases are covered.

[s1lverback]

I guess that this is aimed at higher timed pilots rather than those with say 200hrs or less, as insurances would be higher?

If it is made too rigid both hirers and owners will be put off. There is always going to be an element of risk and penalty, but this needs to be reasonable to remain an attractive proposition.

[Aucky]

simondh - Thanks for that link, I shall have a look when i'm free later, it sounds like an interesting resource to investigate.

Jim - I did indeed read through that thread, I can relate where your coming from, and those who stated a similar opinion, I do however feel that any aircraft owner looking to hire out an aircraft is going to need to take on some element of risk, and it's up to them to to decide what levels of experience are the prerequisite to hiring their aircraft to reduce this risk. Insurance is obviously also designed to provide some protection against this risk also. In an ideal world everyone would put down a large deposit to cover uninsured losses, or insurance excess, and it is an area I shall ponder on, but realistically for many would it be a barrier to entry to the service? I also feel that one of the important differences between the thread you mentioned and this self fly hire agreement is that it would likely be stipulated that the hiring of the aircraft is (unless otherwise agreed) strictly not for training, auto's, hydraulic failure practice etc... which prevents a lot of the avoidable damage of overspeeds, hard landings, bent undercarriage. With regards to worn carpets, scratched windows, I have to say this this is general wear and tear that comes with use of an aircraft, and ultimately that is why the owner is generating and income from the rental. Obviously any users of the service not abiding by the code of conduct with regards to general respect for the aircraft, airmanship etc.. could be black flagged, from that aircraft and to other users of the site in more extreme cases to prevent the reoccurrence of such events within the community. I have also witnessed overspeeds on start but only by solo students or very low hour pilots (in my own experiences) and the vetting check ride should pay special attention to the pilots cockpit organisation and use of checklists, as in both pistons and turbines this is an area that can quickly cost a small fortune, but is easily avoidable.

S1lverback - It is up to the owner to stipulate their own conditions with regard to hourly requirements etc... and also up to the owner to ensure that the aircraft is accordingly insured. I think that the reason this service could be a success, is that really people can determine their own level of risk, by making their own stipulations. And there are people/operators out there at both ends of the scale. Simples.

Cheers all, Aucky

[readgeoff]

Have to say this is an excellent idea. I fly fixed wing and am in a group for access to a number of planes but the equivalent just doesnt seem to exist in the heli world. Given how much more expensive heli flying is and the hour and time restrictions I am surprised sharing isnt prevalent!!

I'm a heli pilot in training at the moment and would be looking for an owner of a R22 that would be willing to sell a big chunk of hours for hour building once Ive got through the PPL(h). Reading through this thread though it looks like many owners wouldnt be interested in low hour pilots :ugh:

Isnt it the case though that hour builders are flying regularly and a lot, are progressing their studies and just generally taking their flying seriously in preparation for CPL and would as a result make for very good consciencious hirers ?

[chopperchappie]

Hi

I am already building such a website/database.

I have already registered a domain (I won't put it here in case I am advertising) and setting it up. There are a few compliance and legal issues like making sure you don't get sued for giving advice !

I did want to have a few other things like how to go about learning to fly hotels to visit and stuff.

CAA don't issue a list of registered Training Facilities any more (that was a prime motivation).

I would welcome anyone that wants to share/exchange/collaborate.

Seems to be very few negative comments and plenty positive so that's good !

Any other comments or suggestions about what's useful and just raw data.

CC

[Pandalet]

Readgeoff,

The usual problem with (very) low hours pilots is that owners tend to have insurance policies that specify minimum hours. In general, to fly their machine, you either need to have your own insurance (which generally blows the cost savings out of the water) or be put on the owners (which usually doesn't add any cost, assuming you meet the requirements). A very common requirement is 100 hours minimum, and most people come out of their PPL with around 60.

The minimum hours requirement is generally suited to the owner. The higher the restriction, the cheaper the insurance, so owners will generally get insurance with the highest minimum hours restriction that still allows them to fly their machines.

[biggles99]

Earl - I'm beginning to change my opinion about you!

I had thought you were someone who posted on Pprune in between juggling axes near the grinder when on standby in the crew room , but your contribution to this thread is First Class. Keep it coming.

Aucky - are you in the UK?

Chopperchappie - I'll help you with this. I usually have one or more R22 and one or more R44 (I buy and sell them) so there are opportunities to use these while they are in stock.

One point that I don't think that anyone has mentioned is that rotary owners are a very, very different breed to their fixed wing brothers.

The fixed wing guys tend to be the type that loves the "clubhouse" ethos and like to belong to a group. Most of them have less disposable income and often fit in flying as a hobby just like someone would play football or golf.

The rotary guys tend to be far more independent, more maverick and more insular. They are usually businessmen who have made it, to a greater or lesser degree. Even the less successful ones have got used to having things done "their way" and all of them have more disposable income than an equivalent fixed wing flyer. And they tend to be more passionate about flying.

All these character traits do NOT lend themselves to the concept of group flying and the sharing of the toys generally. Despite the utter nonsense of buying a 500k aircraft and flying it for less than 50 hours a year, it happens all the time.

There can be many reasons for this, ranging from "I don't care" to "I didn't know", but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter: that's the way it is.

One last point: don't confuse hours builders - usually towards getting a CPL(H) - with wannabe owners. They are totally different markets within the small rotary industry.

As a general rule, a CPL-er will never buy an aircraft. He may buy hours in a syndicate, but he'll be off at the first whiff of oil in the North Sea. He'll also welcome cost-sharing hours that people like me offer when I want to go somewhere in my R22.

Wannabe owners, on the other hand, will put up with the inconvenience of sharing, repositioning and travelling distances in order to fly. It is they that will welcome your efforts to make flying helicopters more accessible to more people more of the time.

One of my missions is to help people fly more often and more safely, and if I can help you Chopperchappie and Aucky, I will.

Big Ls.

[muffin]

Well said Biggles, you have just about summed it up correctly. I have been in fw groups for many years and still have a share in a nice little aircraft which I hardly ever get to fly. However I also have my own R22 which is my baby and I am very very choosy about who flies it simply because things can go pear shaped so quickly in rotary flight compared to fw. Heaven knows I have nearly been there myself!

I would be quite happy to let a very well known and trusted pilot fly my R22, but as I am not in any clubs and almost never go to airfields I only know one -who uses it as much as I do. A web resource which enabled me to find local pilots who I could get to know and trust would probably persuade me to open the doors a bit more.

[chopperchappie]

I agree with 99% of what was said about character traits as well (I fit and so do most of the people that I share/fly with):uhoh:.

I really get annoyed with people who just don't bother to look after things out of neglect or indifference (just look at the car park shopping trolley dents down the side of my wife's car compared to mine - I always park mine away from the herd, on the end of a row etc.).

Having said that - I also think that a car or helicopter is a machine and at the end of the day I would rather someone walked away from one of those "pear shaped" incidents and the tin be written off than vice-versa.

I'm sure nobody disagrees with that but at the end of the day that's why I pay my outrageous insurance costs!

Look forward to anyone that can pitch in with website content comments and help.

CC

[chopperchappie]

Hi - we have posted a website www.helisharing.co.uk (http://www.helisharing.co.uk) - we are looking to share our R44 as group membership but also looking to have a section where owners can connect with SFH pilots.

There is no charge or anything for putting people in touch with other people (owners with pilots) but we haven't actually decided how to go about this, obviously we don't want to just post owners/pilots details.

Anyone with suggestions about how to maintain anonimity whilst matching owners/pilots please let me know.

Anyone that has a helicopter that wants to sell hours please contact me by email or PM.

Anyone that wants to buy hours please also contact me by email or PM.

PLEASE include some sensible information (like what kind of helicopter, number of hours flown, type of license held, any restrictions, LOCATION etc.)

CC

[EddieHeli]

I think this is a great idea.
I have had two experiences of this with an R22 and an R44. The R44 owner kept the machine at home, and the R22 at a local grass strip in a private hangar with a helipad outside.
Both of these were introduced to me by the flying school owner at the time. (Both at different ends of the country, one in the N.E. when I lived up there and one in the S.W. when I lived down there). The flying school owner had an arrangement to let suitably vetted people know about the machines. One was arranged and billed directly with the owner after the initial introduction, and the other was arranged and billed through the Flying School. With the direct arrangement I had to leave a deposit cheque to cover the insurance excess and another cheque for the amount of the SFH. The deposit cheque was never banked and returned on safe return of the machine at the end of the arrangement.
On each first occasion the Flying School owner made the personal introduction between me and the owner and accompanied me on the first flight out of and into the site, and went through the arrangements for booking, payment and anything else like where the keys and docs would be etc.
The arrangement worked really well and I would welcome something similar in the East Midlands where I now live.

[chopperchappie]

Just to recap;

The idea is to get more people flying regularly...particularly;

Owners looking to share/reduce ownership costs
SFH Pilots looking to share/reduce flying costs

We would like to set up a forum on our website www.helisharing.co.uk (http://www.helisharing.co.uk) where people can get in touch with each other if their needs match up but not get loads of SPAM about stuff that isn't relevant. So that probably needs some kind of database, at least including aircraft type and pilot hours etc.

So far I haven't had either owners or pilots get in touch.
I also haven't had any bright ideas about how to operate such a forum (requirements, mechanisms, etc.)

Maybe there is no need for this as everyone is happy paying large amounts of money to fly :bored:

CC

[hands_on123]

The plan of sharing a heli never seems to work like it does in the fixed-wing world, the whole idea of a helicopter is that is gives you freedom and flexibility, and being part of a group, doesn't seem to sit well with that, then you have the insurance/easy-to-bend-or-overspeed issue. But good luck anyway...

[Pandalet]

Bit of a long shot, really, but I don't suppose there are any Bo105 owners out there who'd be interested in flogging a few hours?

[nigelh]

Chopper Chap . I wish you luck but dont think it will work due to
1) A large part of this forum is people who get paid to fly and dont pay to fly
2) A large part of this forum is people who would love to fly but have no money
3) The rest of the people just actually dont care enough to do anything about it . There have been numerous excellent ideas here and they pretty much all get ignored . I tried to see if people wished to form a club and self insure our machines .....this could have saved owners a lot of money and potentially have ended up providing free hull insurance (partly due to banning 22,s from the club ). This is just the way it is ... hope to be proved wrong !

[61 Lafite]

As an ex-owner twice over, I don't know how many private owners go through the same experience:

Before purchase:

1) I'm just going to do this, I can afford it, if it gets expensive I might be able to find someone else to fly it.

Shortly after purchase

2) Hey, this is great, I fly whenever I want, and the bills aren't too bad

Shortly after one or more unfortunate bills

3) B*gger me, this is expensive, I think I need some of those self-fly-hire pilots to pay some of the bills

Shortly after using some self fly hire pilots

4) Damn - I don't seem to make any money, if anything it's costing more and it's sometimes not there when I want it and I'm worried what they might do to it. Lets see how it pans out.

And finally...

5) I've got over the ownership need, I could redeploy the cash a lot better and I just don't need the hassle - I'll sell mine and look for someone at stage 3!

... or was it just me? :O

.... and don't even ask why I did it twice!

[chopperchappie]

Guys

Thanks for the good feedback.

I will have a think about the comments and reply soon, but initial thoughts are inline with with there being people at 3. wanting some SFH pilots. That was the assumption - that there are some people like that.

In the meantime I guess
"A large part of this forum is people who get paid to fly and dont pay to fly"
is correct, but those people must be aware of the costs they went through to get their CPL(H) and hours-building to get a job.

There are people out there with 6+ year old R44s with low hours that they are never going to get the hours out of, and all that goes in the bin at 12 years.

If you don't have enough money for the toys then you might find sharing some value, but if people are not interested then no worries, we'll just can that idea.

So I guess if there's a show of hands from some owners we'll probably take it further, if not then we'll leave the effort aside.

CC

[chriswhi]

61lafite,

Well put, been there done that sold my machine last year after 15 years

[Dennis Kenyon]

Good evening Sirs,

May I enquire if the Mods will allow a post inviting ppruners to indicate their level of interest in a helicopter club about to be formed. Club membership allows SFH at a significantly lower hourly rates. Membership limited to around a dozen or so. Two helicopters will be available. MD500 and S-300C. Type rating and ab-initio training to be available. Based London UK area. Full details to come if approved. Dennis Kenyon.

[Hughes500]

Well Dennis could offer the same thing in the SW as I Have 2 x 500's and 4 x 300's unless you want to buy one ! Hope it works well 2 fabulous proper helicopter types

[TheiC]

A well-known UK-based magazine for people who fly already has a database of aircraft for hire on its website. Unfortunately, it's very badly set up and hardly maintained at all, but it is a starting point if you're willing to search for 'Jetranger', 'Jet Ranger', 'B206', 'Bell 206', etc every time you want to find a particular type. (I would have gone with the G-INFO type designations for commonality).

On the more recent topic here, aircraft charter, like yacht charter, is an asymmetric business. Because there are people looking simply to offset some of their costs, not to run profitably, the 'buy some aircraft, lease them out, and return a profit' model hardly ever works, and certainly not in parts of the world where there is a competing, partial-cost-recovering, market.

[chopperchappie]

Hi Dennis

Sent PM

[chopperchappie]

We have some R44 hours to use up before 12Y imminent rebuild - if anyone is looking for time now we can probably do something as long as you can be a bit flexible :-) Please feel free to PM me or email me via pprune

[chopperchappie]

Just checked my PMs to find a bunch of people from around the world asking where the aircraft is - it's in West London (Denham).

[maddmatt]

Did this website ever get created? Would be very useful for self fly hire pilots especially ones looking to SFH turbines

[chopperchappie]

Hi Maddmatt

We set up website helisharing.co.uk but there was a disctinct lack of owners wanting to list their aircraft - so we just use the website to explain our own scheme.

We'd be happy to list people looking to rent out their aircraft or people looking to use an aircraft.

I have had a few (2 or 3) people contact me and ask for help setting up their own scheme but I'm not aware of any that have gone ahead.

In the meantime we have been operating for 5 years and now are planning to rebuild the aircraft so are looking to use up as many hours as possible in the next few weeks, also we'd be looking to find several new members that would replace people that no longer live in/near London. If anyone is interested in either some hours or membership please let me know.

[maddmatt]

Thanks for that, at this stage I was mainly interested in who would let me SFH a turbine, I can get a R66 but have to do nearly 15 hours to satisfy the owner, have looked at doing an EC120 but only way of SFH one of those is with a safety pilot which takes a useful seat and/or baggage load. So it's all a bit disappointing and I might as well stick with the R44... ...

And get the golf clubs delivered to the course by taxi...

[Hughes500]

Madd

Pity you are not in SW as I would rent you a Hu 369D !

[maddmatt]

500, where are you exactly?

[Hughes500]

just outside exeter

[autobarnacle]

Have just seen this website which seems to be a new launch (according to the about us page anyway) , it appears to have a good data base of flying schools offing SFH and for owners it seems the ideal place of present your aircraft. Might be worth a contact.
Hughes500, not sure if you are already listed but may be worth a look.
Self Fly Hire UK (http://www.sfhuk.co.uk/)
Hope this helps.

Happy flying

[206Fan]

Nice idea. Has anybody done this in Canada out of curiosity?

[PassTheMarmalade]

Bit of a long shot and apologies if this counts as advertising...

Would any R22/R44 owners in Devon/Dorset/Somerset be looking to offload some hours to a PPL(H)?

chopperchappie - If there are plans to include an 'owners wanted' section of your website as discussed earlier in the thread, I'd be happy to provide further details to help populate it.

[chopperchappie]

Hi PassTheMarmalade

As per previous comment from Aug - happy to list any that would like to be listed - so far no/very limited interest from owners.

CC

[Hughes500]

cc
website link doesn't work, which maybe why you are having a problem

[chopperchappie]

Hughes500 - there's two websites mentioned in the thread;

Ours - Helisharing (http://www.helisharing.co.uk)- seems to work OK

Someone Else's (don't know who) - http://www.sfhuk.co.uk - doesnt seem to work

Please let me know if I misunderstood?

CC