JAA ATPL vs FAA ATP

[crazy_bird]

hey guys,
i am an indian national in grade 11, and it has been my passion to become a pilot for a very long time now.
everyone has told me that if you wanna become a pilot do not do it in india....
so, now i am left with 2 choices, either to the JAA ATPL or the FAA ATPL, as in my opinion these are really good licenses...
but after acquiring either of the 2, i know i wouldn't have a chance to get a job in the EU or US, as all airlines prefer their own nationals, epically for people who are fresh from the academies.... So, after doing either of these licenses, i plan to then convert it to the indian dgca license, as i will have a much larger scope in india...
now what i am really confused about is, which license would be better to do in the first place before converting it to the dgca license, the FAA ATP ot the JAA ATPL??
thanks a lot guys :)
cheers

[Uncle Wiggily]

I don't know....is it now required to have a license in India?

[crazy_bird]

What do you mean by that?
Obv a license would be required....

[Guru8904]

I don't know....is it now required to have a license in India?
Uncle Wiggily,

Improve your disgusting attempts at sarcasm. Simple folks like Crazy bird fail to fathom the depth of your ugly moronic thinking.

[crazy_bird]

hmm,...the guy's just bored in life, and honestly i dont care about whatever :mad: he may say....
the main thing is....the very topic of this thread hasn't even been discussed!! :ugh::ugh::*

[Genghis the Engineer]

hey guys,
i am an indian national in grade 11, and it has been my passion to become a pilot for a very long time now.
everyone has told me that if you wanna become a pilot do not do it in india....
so, now i am left with 2 choices, either to the JAA ATPL or the FAA ATPL, as in my opinion these are really good licenses...
but after acquiring either of the 2, i know i wouldn't have a chance to get a job in the EU or US, as all airlines prefer their own nationals, epically for people who are fresh from the academies.... So, after doing either of these licenses, i plan to then convert it to the indian dgca license, as i will have a much larger scope in india...
now what i am really confused about is, which license would be better to do in the first place before converting it to the dgca license, the FAA ATP ot the JAA ATPL??
thanks a lot guys :)
cheers

I know little about flying in India, so have no idea if that was good advice or not concerning not training in India.

But, if you are planning to do an overseas licence then convert to an Indian licence - then assuming that the conversion is the same, do an FAA licence. The ground exams are easier, and the USA is a cheaper place to train. Ultimately, the flying training and examination standards are the same.

G

[crazy_bird]

hmm
thanks a lot mate, i'll keep this point in mind...:ok:
cheers

[B2N2]

Another option would be to do a combined FAA & JAA CPL training course.
Under JAA even the "frozen" ATPL is not even official terminology.
It just means you have passed the 14 ATPL written exams.

You could train for the FAA ATPL but the cost would be pretty outrageous since for the ATPL 1500 hrs are required. I don't see anybody renting an airplane for 1250 hrs after they've finished their training.

So what you are looking for/asking for is a training course for the US CPL Multi engine Instrument or it's JAA equivalent or both.

I've been out of school for quite a while now...:{ grade 11 doesn't mean anything to me, how old are you?
You have as location Dubai, is that were you are going to school?
There are several flight academies in Jordan:

Royal Jordanian Air Academy > Home (http://www.royalflight.com/Default.aspx?tabid=39)

This one has Diamond Aircraft:
:: Ayla Aviation Academy-The Leading Flight Training Organization for Pilots in the Middle East :: (http://www.aylaaviation.com/)

[crazy_bird]

hey...
haha, well, i am 16 years old...and yes my school is also in dubai..
i have already checked out both the academies and i also know quite a few students and instructors of both academies, and in a nutshell, both of them aren't of too good quality....
do you recommend any other academies?...my budget for the tuition fees is around 105k-110k USD
thanks
cheers

[B2N2]

Well at 16 you're too young for either one, FAA requires 18 for CPL.
Wait two years and start at 18, don't forget you also need the maturity to make it through any training program.
Budget is more then sufficient for both FAA and JAA CPL + MCC and all the rest of it.

[crazy_bird]

haha..yeah mate, i know about the minimum age, i am just gathering info now..
but can i ask something??..like i even want to do a degree besides my license so in case my medical fails or for some other reason i am not allowed to fly, i can fall back upon the degree for a job..so what do u recommend, that i do my degree before or after my license?
and, also could you pls recommend some good JAA and FAA academies...
thanks

[B2N2]

Absolutely get your degree before you start flight training.
After you've completed your flight training you will have caught the bug and only be willing to fly.....:ok:
Yes, I know some good academies but that info is useless to you now.
The flight training industry is a very volatile industry, owners come and go, Chief Flight Instructors come and go, Instructors come and go. What was a good school two years ago or even last year may not be a good one now due to change in all of the above mentioned key people.

That's why it's useless to read the advise of anybody on this forum if their experience is more then a year old.

" I did my training at BigWatch Flight Academy two years ago and it was fantastic.." well guess what too many key people changed and it's no longer fantastic.

Start looking for good advise when you are a little closer to a starting date.

[zondaracer]

FAA will be cheaper, you could do it in half your budget in the USA. Do NOT pay all your money upfront. The written exams are easier in the USA also. If you want to get a degree after your flight training, I know people who got their commercial license and instructor rating and went to University and taught flying lessons on the weekends and after class at the local flying school.

For what it is worth, if you ever think one day you will work as a pilot in Europe, get your JAA rating, it would save you the conversion later. Also, in the USA, the airlines don't really give preference to nationals, it Oshkosh hard for foreigners to get rights to live and work, it is like winning the lottery to get a greencard (literally, the greencard lottery).

In Canada, there is a reality documentary show called Ice Pilots, and there is even an Indian guy who just got hired at the flying company, so anything is possible.

There are lots of wonderful places to do your training in the USA, but there are also some really shady places. Like I said, don't pay your money up front. If some place wants you to pay up front, go somewhere else. Also, don't get caught up in the word Academy in the US. A small school or large Academy, it doesn't make much of a difference, most important is the maintenance of the aircraft, quality of training, and how you are treated as a customer. Send me a PM if you have any questions.

[JordanianAviator]

If you wanna do a degree i would suggest embry riddle aeronautical university in Florida it is the best !! you can do any related aeronautical engineering or manegment degree + your CPL license. This university is highly respected all over the world and it will make your employment alot easier. If your looking for flight academies i would recommend American Flyers they're based in florida, texas and somewhere else i cant recall from the top of my head but they are very good academies i got my ppl and instrument from there. also i would recommend professional flight training in fort lauderale, FL they are pretty good i got my commercial + multiengine rating from there. which ever you choose is fine but DO NOT GO near Florida Aviation Academy in Pompano Beach, FL they are a total rip off they done it to me and to alot of indian students that were over there.

[crazy_bird]

hmm....thanks for the inputs!:ok:

[zondaracer]

To respond to Jordan...

Embry Riddle is very expensive and there is plenty of information on Embry Riddle on other forums. In the US, if you graduate from Embry Riddle, you will be ridiculed by many other pilots. Everyone will say that you ¨have the Embry Riddle stink on you.¨ Overall, it´s not that bad from what I hear, just over priced, but if you want to get your commercial pilot´s license and a degree at the same time, that´s one place to do it, but there are many many options in the USA.

Check out this site, it will give you a database of Aviation Degree programs in the USA, very comprehensive. Ohio State University has a program, Purdue University has a program, just to name a few.
AOPA Flight Training - Search the Aviation College Database (http://flighttraining.aopa.org/learntofly/school/aviation_colleges/)
ATP Flight School: Aviation Degree - A.S. & B.S. in Airline Transport Professional Pilot Operations (http://www.atpflightschool.com/aviation-college-degree/index.html)

[Uncle Wiggily]

Simple folks like Crazy bird

Guru8904: Your vulgar and unwarranted attack on CrazyBird by calling him, "simple folk" is totally unecessary. I am sure that young Crazy Bird is a fine, bright lad who is simply trying his best to achieve his dreams. It makes me sick to see people bullied and put-down for no reason!

[Challenger05]

Hi guys,
I am trying to help out a buddy of mine who is in the States doing some time building and working on his JAA ATPL Papers..

Now AFAIK to get the "Frozen JAA ATPL" one needs to have a CPL+ME+IR and clear the 14 papers.. please correct me if I am wrong does it state in some recent revision in the JAR that the CPL too has to be a JAA CPL.

My friend was given the following information by a Captain of a EU registered corporate jet:
To get the JAA ATPL he would first need to be in possession of a JAA CPL and JAA CPL only, that having a FAA CPL+ME+IR and the 14 JAA written papers cleared WILL NOT get him the JAA ATPL later on..

Have I missed something while going through the forum or is the captain mistaken?

3 or so years back when I got my FAA ME add on, my instructor was a Swede who had a FAA CPL+ME+IR and had just completed his JAA ATPL written papers who was instructing to build his 1500 hrs. And I clearly remember his telling me that he had completed all his papers and now had to complete his checkride etc to be issued his JAA ATPL. He was not in possession of a JAA CPL.

Could someone who is going through the process at present give us a clarification please?

Cheers :ok:

[INNflight]

Your friend has to sit the 14 JAA ATPL exams and then do training with a European FTO which then determines if he is ready for a JAA CPL IR skills test.

Passing that skills test will result in the issuing of a JAA CPL ME IR.

[guitarboy]

@ Crazy Bird.. -- listen Dude.. Forget about flying in India.! there are 5000 Indian CPL Holder sitting at home looking for jobs. About 2000-3000 more who have completed their training and soon will convert.

There are hardly any openings and you donot qualify for anything else with that CPL.

I understand your love for flying but im giving you the reality check at the moment. If you love flying so much The INDIAN AIR FORCE / INDIAN NAVY / INDIAN COAST GUARD recruit for Pilots twice every year. You donot have to have a licence to apply, just pass their entrances tests etc and then they will train you with a stipend / place to live etc. Apply there directly rather than first completing the Course in EU / USA and then sitting at home etc.

Believe me, if i were you with a 100k id go get myself a Bachelors Degree frm USA / UK / CANADA from an IVY League college and make the most of my life and after the 3/4 years of studying make a career which has almost no pitfalls as compared to aviation.

While studying in US / CANADA etc you can side by side maybe take some lessons and earn a private pilots licence if you really wanna fly. But if youre thinking of working for an airline in india.. DUDE! SEROUSLY! THERE IS NO SCOPE! Its my request to put your Parents hard earned money in the right direction rather than dumping it.

Anyways.. Good Luck to You.

[Challenger05]

@ INNFlight: Thanks for the info... :ok:

Just to be crystal clear what the Captain said was right; my buddy WILL need to get a JAA CPL/ME/IR after he clears his 14 exams to get the JAA ATPL once he has the required 1500 hrs..

@ Crazy_bird:
105K USD WOW!!! Now if only I had that kind of money...:E

Ok I will stick my neck out on this one and give a few options:
1. Depending on your residency status see if you manage to get into one of the Cadet programs that the Gulf carriers are now having. You will be able to save most of that pile of cash and be able to use it just in case things dont go as planned. ( Hey **** happens!)

2. Recommend you go to the states and work on getting BOTH the JAA and FAA licenses your budget is MORE than sufficient to cover the costs. again opens up more avenues for you specially since the JAA license seems to be preferred in the Middle East.

3. Spend the 45K or so it takes to acquire a FAA license and then use part of the money for some timebuilding, at the rates planes at going for in US its not hard to buy a hald share in a C172 for 20K and keep the rest of $$ as money to pay for a potential Type Rating down the line. The way things are in SE Asia specially India it might be the crucial step up you might need for a job...( the purists will shake their heads at this 'pay for TR' as would I have a few months back but the way things are going with Low Cost carriers it just might become the norm :ugh:)

Personally if I had been fortunate enough to have the money you have I would go for Option 3 Simply coz there is so much more to flying than flying for the lines and flying jets... its fun flying GA planes around specially in the states and going where YOU want!!! and I believe its the only time you really completely enjoy flying.

And so if you DO decide to go to states for the same reason stay away from ERAU and such. Their Academic material might be worth its weight in gold but the flying is so regimented you might as well be a cadet for some airline!

Trust me once you get that turboprop/jet job you are a more of a manager than a pilot... How I miss flying on weekend to the beaches on East Coast just for those succulent jumbo prawns at the beach shacks.. :(


I live by a code and the code is simple: Dont hit something you din plan to hit and even then be gentle for heaven's sake! :ok:

[crazy_bird]

hmm...thanks a lot for the pointers guys..
many of you are saying that the money is more than enough to be able to fund my training...but most of the academies in the UK go above 110k, oxford is 120k ...so i cant afford it and their scholarship programs are only for UK nationals :{

all these points are good. but the main thing is... FAA or JAA??
i still cant decide which license to peruse...from the point of view that i'll kick off my career in india, as being an indian national they are the only guys who will take me as total freshie from the academy....

@guitarboy: first of all, love your "location" , good one :D:ok:

yes, i do agree that the employment scope for pilots in india is int too good, but i am still in 11th, so by the time i actually "enter the market" will be in around 5-6 years (keeping in mind my 1 yr of school left, 3-4 years for degree and 2 yrs for license and TR), how will the situation be then?? thanks :)
cheers

[crazy_bird]

@Challenger05: yeah mate i'av checked out the cadet programs offered in my region..
the prob is...the closest one, ie. emirates, is only for UAE nationals....and etihad, it is an international cadet program, but i've heard a lot of **** about it :- that there are many catches and hidden costs which you will incur as you start flying for them....

[Challenger05]

Well I would recommend the FAA... and specially if you want to fly in india simply because conversion to DGCA-I requires just a CPL. You will save a lot of dough... heck even those learning flying in UK go to US for time building to save money... :D

And incidentally I too followed the same path of degree before CPL you are planning on, do regret it sometimes.. :* mainly coz if i had done my flying straight out of high school could have had a job simply with the license in one hand and a working body.. 2005-2007 oh the heady days of indian aviation... :ugh: Oh well, 2 years of learning basics of maintenance and flying battered old piston twins was fun too even if it never paid a dime....

Anyhow my further 2 cents make sure you a degree in something that helps out with your aviation my money would be on AME or Aeronautical/Electronics/Avionics... I got my first gig coz of my background in avionics, which then led to flying... you never know where those engg skills come in handy...

You got time on your side buddy...:ok:

[guitarboy]

@Crazybird. - okay well so basically you mean you plan to get into aviation 4-5 years from now.

Well in that case.. things could change drastically in 4-5 years so you should wait n watch.

Plus right now the cheaper option would be FAA CPL which is gonna cost you arnd 45k max from Zero to Hero! argg. i mean CPL with around 250 hours.

you may wanna get a CFI after that and work your way up until 1000 / 1500 hours and get an ATPL.

JAA is an expensive and a lengthier process. Plus the number of exams to pass! 14!! FAA is very easy as compared to JAA.

Anyways. you take your pick but anyways 4-5 years later lots will change!

Concentrate on your Bachelors till then and dont worry about things 4 years before hand.. once in youre final year , then do the digging around.

anyways cheers.

[crazy_bird]

hmm....
all right, thanks a lot :)
umm...what is CFI??