Airvan crash on Flinders Island

[tasdevil.f27]

Hopefully all walk away ok. Weather was pretty bad earlier in the arvo..

A light plane has gone down near Strzelecki National Park on Flinders Island with seven people on board.Northern District Commander Richard Cowling says all those on board are believed to be alive, but police are still working to locate the plane.
A large contingent of emergency service personnel are on stand-by once the location of the crash site has been determined.
Police are believed to have been in radio contact with those on board.
It is understood the small charter plane with seven people on board took off from Lady Barron in fog and rain and hit a low hill.
Gail Grace, whose husband is the Whitemark Aerodrome manager, said State Emergency Service personnel were trying to locate the plane somewhere on the south of the island.
"At the moment we don't know whether it has hit Mount Strezelecki or Vinegar Hill,'' she said. "They're still trying to find it but nobody's seen it.''
Locals said weather condition were "absolutely atrocious'' with cloud down to 100 metres and drizzling rain.
Flinders Island held its annual show today with many flights from the Tasmanian mainland and Cape Barren Island landing at Whitemark and Lady Barron.
The plane was believed to belong to Flinders Island Aviation Services, which operates two GA8 Airvans and a Cessna 206 from Lady Barron.
It is believed the seven passengers were on board one of the GA8 Airvans, which can be converted from freight carrying to allow for seven passengers.
A spokeswoman at Flinders Island Aviation Services was unable to comment on the crash as she had no details.

[NOSIGN]

ch 7 newsbreak reported that 7 walked away

[The Green Goblin]

As they say, it's the right aircraft to have a prang in. All those hemorrhoids do pay off in the end :{

[Rabbit 1]

Weather can change quickly there. I recall seeing Cape Barron and Flinders from Bridport, enroute to Lady Barron in a BN2. A few moments later the islands vanished from view. Long time ago but I think an easterly weather pattern blew in and covered the place. Chapel Island wasn't a great alternate due to the snake population.

[VH-XXX]

Doesn't really sound like VFR !

[AIREHEAD]

Six telstra employees plus pilot, found just after midnight, and the last winched out about 3.30am. All ok apart from cuts and bruises. What I dont understand is why a company like telstra would charter VFR pilots and aircraft operating to VFR strips when there are IFR Rpt services available

[VH-XXX]

Short of engine or mechanical failure there's no excuse for this outcome considering what the what the weather was like / has been like the last few days.

[AIREHEAD]

Totally agree XXX. This is no accident, its an avoidable crash

[Dog One]

Surprised that Telstra allowing their staff to travel in a single engine aircraft. Many years ago, following numerous single engine accidents landing and taking off on Three Hummocks Island (Western end of Bass Strait), they built a bigger strip nearer to their tower and flew in and out in twin engine aircraft only.

Was it work related flight, or was it a staff organised flight, seeing that the complement were three males, three females. (Source ABC radio)

[Ixixly]

I find myself wondering, in this age with EPIRBs that'll locate you to within 10cm, why did it take so long to find them? Does the cloud and bad weather affect their use a lot?

[Deaf]

EPIRBs that'll locate you to within 10cm

2 types of Beacons (EPIRB PLB ELT etc)

No GPS - ~5 nm and up to 3 hrs to get that depending on what the satellites are doing

GPS 400 ft in a few minutes. The beacon may have a better position from it's gps but the code string limits what it can send.

Some people want to save the extra $150 a GPS beacon costs.

[Ixixly]

Hmm, thanks Deaf, always good to gain a better understanding of such things! Guess I read the package labelling and take it a little to heart sometimes! :}

[Stationair8]

ML centre 123.80 had a number of jets monitoring 121.50 around 6pm last night.

One wonders why Telstra used a VFR single, too tight to pay for an IFR twin or book seats on Airlines of Tas?

[PLovett]

One wonders why Telstra used a VFR single, too tight to pay for an IFR twin or book seats on Airlines of Tas?

Especially given the deaths of three of their employees in a crash on takeoff of a single engine aircraft from Three Hummock Island several years ago. IIRC that one was possibly due to carbie icing.

[Stationair8]

Probably what saved them would have been the stringent Testra OH&S rules including safety vest, goggles, hard hat and gloves etc.

Why then did we put them a single-engine VFR aircraft in crappy weather for an over-water flight?

[tasdevil.f27]

That company seem to have a history of "broken" aircraft....

Saw some footage tonight, bloody rough terrain where it came down. Seems the pilot decided to go walk about and was picked up away from the scene. The passengers were picked up from the crash site some time later. Very lucky to walk away.

One of Airlines of Tas's Titans was sent out sometime after midnight to assist also.

The passengers flew back into Launceston this arvo ironically on another Airvan....:uhoh:

[VH-XXX]

One wonders why Telstra used a VFR single, too tight to pay for an IFR twin or book seats on Airlines of Tas?

Because you can't get an IFR twin into the strips that they need to operate into for the work that they are doing.

[eocvictim]

Because you can't get an IFR twin into the strips that they need to operate into for the work that they are doing.

Wasn't it Lady Barron? Why cant you get an IFR twin in there?

[Stationair8]

Check in ERSA you will find YFLI is more than capable of taking large aircraft ie Fokker 50, Dash8, F-27 etc.

The airstrip at Lady Baron is also good enough to take C402/PA-31 etc.

[I spy]

Why no kudos to the pilot for sucessfully saving so many lives? Why is there "no excuse" on behalf the pilot. From what I've read, the conditions thet can chage quite dramatically!


I'm assuming it was engine failure- are there known issues with the "scare-van"?

[VH-XXX]

It wasn't an engine failure!

[cficare]

ABC radio said the Telstra mob had been manning and womaning a stand at the local Show....which is held next to YFLI

[VH-VIN]

Why would you be safer in a 402 or PA31?. Engine failures in singles dont often kill you but they do in poor performace twins.
Most accidents in singles are not the engine stopping anyway.

[AIREHEAD]

This is not a question of singles verses twins, Its a question of why a major company would put their staff on a VFR charter when there are alternatives of IFR charter or even better RPT

[VH-VIN]

thats correct, IFR is the only way to go if you can, would a company know the difference?

[Wally Mk2]

Look there's always a human element to a prang whether it be piloting skills or maintenance skills ( & other factors at times) either way lets learn from yet another accident that was this time a happy ending.:)


Wmk2

[VH-XXX]

Happy ending for the passengers, happy ending for Gippy aero selling a replacement aircraft but not so happy for the insurance company or the Chief Pilot.

[Jabiman]

According to local news reports:

'The Flinders Island Aviation Services GA8 had taken off from Lady Barron bound for Bridport before striking heavy cloud and attempting to turn back.'

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Certainly speaks well of the crash worthiness of the GA-8.

[VH-XXX]

These pictures give a good idea of where they went down!!!

Island crash pilot lauded Tasmania News - The Mercury - The Voice of Tasmania (http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2010/10/17/179801_tasmania-news.html)

[MyNameIsIs]

Some companies and singles, they have no idea...

I previously worked for a company that frequently carried the workers for the state's power company. They were only allowed in our twins. Our aircraft were all powered by Lycoming 540's.
Same energy workers were allowed to fly in Lyco powered Robbo helicopters which were obviously VFR, and single. Same helicopter company also flew Telstra- but they were only allowed in the turbine machines, but still single.

Can anyone figure that out? :ugh:

[Ixixly]

Insurance MyNameIsIs, some companies insurance says "Sure you can do this but you have to do it in X Aircraft type otherwise we won't cover you!", others don't stipulate such activities in the same detail. You'd really have to ask the risk people in each insurance company about how they've come to their conclusions!!

[The Green Goblin]

Nice one, according to the news article the Pilot buggered off with the beacon :ugh:

[cficare]

the pilot was the Chief Pilot..

[VH-XXX]

He would have buggered off with the beacon because he knew exactly where he was thus he headed to the nearest road etc to await rescue, so taking the beacon in this instance was probably the sensible option. Didn't matter anyway as the passengers had iPhones with GPS coordinates and were in contact with rescuers.

[Stationair8]

Let's see six Telstra employee's, that would include the following:

1 x IT person,
1 x OH&S person,
1 x Human Rescources person,
1 x Media/PR person,
1 x Management person and
1 x worker.

[cavok123]

I highly doubt that the insurance company that he has/had will come to the party, might be a costly exersie for flinders island aviation

[tasdevil.f27]

Especially being their 2nd Airvan claim within a couple of years......

[Jabawocky]

So was this a VFR operation into IMC? Was the pilot Instrument Rated at all?

Sounds like commercial pressure all round.

Lucky they got away so cheaply!

[VH-XXX]

Second claim maybe but does the wind blowing one over on the ground count?

Jaba, yes, no, yes, yes.

[slice]

So basically what we have here is CFIT from VFR into IMC. Miraculous anyone survived after seeing the wreckage site.:eek:

[Jabawocky]

Hmmmmmmmm

That says a lot :eek:

Lucky they got away so cheaply! x 10E6

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

IFR in a SE piston aircraft is way, way, way safer than venturing into the no-man's land that lies between VFR and IFR.

Forget St Mary - it is a REAL miracle that everyone walked away from this.

Dr :8

[cficare]

Have too agree Doc..."The Examiner" had 3 pages of it today...headline "Pilot a Hero".

[VH-XXX]

So basically what we have here is CFIT from VFR into IMC. Miraculous anyone survived after seeing the wreckage site.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif


You are essentially correct, it was "controlled" flight into terrain, but not of the normal kind. It was a "conscious" decision to put it down as there were no other options. (that is a whole other topic of discussion)

If it was a CFIT in the normal sense there probably would have been zero surviviors.

It would seem that putting it down was the only option available to the pilot. We could debate all day how we all would have done things differently, but that's what happened.

[skylane]

Having spent a lot of my younger days flying in that area, both VFR and IFR, the question is why did he finish up where he did, when the direct track Lady Barron - Bridport is over the southern tip of Cape Barren Island. In conditions of low cloud, we always tracked coastal through the Strait between Flinders and Cape Barren. From the TV footage, the aircraft appears to be well west of the direct track and up in the foothills.

[VH-XXX]

Disorientation is a funny thing ain't it!

[Sue Ridgepipe]

It would seem that putting it down was the only option available to the pilot.
How about not taking off in the first place?

[Jabawocky]

XXX seems to know a few things about this prang, and yes he may have done the right thing in the end by putting it gently into the bush, but lets recap my words shall we.

and yes he may have done the right thing in the end

Well had he done the right thing to begin with he would not have had to do anything else!

The end was not all that further away either! :uhoh:

[PPRuNeUser0182]

From 'The Examiner' online:
I'm no hero, says crash pilot - Local News - News - General - The Examiner Newspaper (http://www.examiner.com.au/news/local/news/general/im-no-hero-says-crash-pilot/1971034.aspx)

I'm no hero, says crash pilot
18 Oct, 2010 08:22 AM

FLINDERS ISLAND pilot Gordon Rorison claims he is not a hero after he and six passengers survived a terrifying crash- landing of his plane on the island on Friday.

The 63-year-old pilot said yesterday that the passengers were heroic for remaining calm in the crisis.

"It's not a word I accept or I want to be called," Mr Rorison said.

But some of his passengers are not so sure. several said yesterday, that without his flying skills the outcome may have been very different.

Passenger Sarah Mackinnon praised Mr Rorison.

"The pilot was really focused, he did an incredible job," she said.

Fellow passenger Jo Walsh agreed.

"We were all gobsmacked and could not believe seven of us had walked away with only bruises and bumps," she said.

Flinders Deputy Mayor Michael Grimshaw said it was a "bloody miracle" all seven survived.

[fanning]

AO-2010-080 (http://atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2010/aair/ao-2010-080.aspx)

Interesting wording ... "After inadvertently entering cloud, the aircraft collided with high terrain"

My impression from the story first was that the pilot chose to land there after running out of options ... ?

The locals have continued to use charter organisations over the regular service (Sharp Airlines now?) for many years ..., I was under the impression that this operator was previously under scrutiny for brining a passenger or two on the odd mail run ... or maybe that was the previous operator that operated from Bridport ?

For those interested - Mount Razorback - Map of Mount Razorback in Tasmania - Bonzle Digital Atlas of Australia (http://maps.bonzle.com/c/a?a=p&p=30054&wnb=19926261&cmd=sp&c=1&x=148.09002&y=-40.23443&mpsec=0#map)

[anothertwit]

There is an old saying, " a superior pilot is one who uses his/her superior judgment to avoid the need to use his/her superior flying skills"

Another oldie that suits is "I would rather be on the ground whinging that i wanted to be flying than the other way round!" :ok:

If you fly around the Strait for long enough you will eventually get caught but I would bet my lefty that not even the seagulls were flying that day on Flinders. They should not have taken off. End of story! :ugh:

[AIREHEAD]

Dunno about you, but this whole incident is reminding me of another island crash last year. Both involved a CFIT where all the occupants walked or swam away, and then both pilots were proclaimed heros by the the press. But the truth in both incidents will be seen to be extremley poor judgement and airmanship. Can't wait to read both ATSB reports

[tasdevil.f27]

Seems to have stayed intact pretty well. The wings were removed before it was lifted out of the bush.

http://www.examiner.com.au/multimedia/images/full/968250.jpg

[PPRuNeUser0182]

tasdevil.f27:

How extraordinarily LUCKY could you be. :confused::uhoh:

[VH-XXX]

That should buff out ok :\

That wreckage is certainly not a result of unintentional CFIT, it is in very good shape considering. You can piece together a little more about what happened based on the wreckage.

[Fly-by-Desire]

That wreckage is certainly not a result of unintentional CFIT, it is in very good shape considering. You can piece together a little more about what happened based on the wreckage.


What could you possibly tell from that picture :confused:

[The Green Goblin]

What could you possibly tell from that picture

It's missing it's wings and landing gear, and that it probably won't fly again :D

[VH-XXX]

Even a blind man could tell by feel that that aircraft did not "crash" into trees in the true sense. It was a "controlled" landing into the tops with full flap at stall speed.

If you look at the pic from when the airvan hit the hangar a couple of months ago you'll get more of an idea of the damage associated with CFIT.

[cavok123]

Word is it that Casa are claiming that the pilot is a 'hero' and that this accident is being swept under the carpet.

[GADRIVR]

"Word is it that Casa are claiming that the pilot is a 'hero' and that this accident is being swept under the carpet."

Interesting...wonder if the crew of the Norfolk Island ditching would be afforded the same sympathetic treatment... or is that too much of a legal minefield!!!???

Once bitten twice shy eh CASA dudes??!!

[VH-XXX]

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard Cavok.

Crashes like this don't just get "swept under the rug."

[Jabawocky]

Let me see.........If they found the wx was VMC and clear below 1000' and if they had a runaway trip that pushed the a/c into cloud and the best he could do was slow it down and put it into the bush......or some crazy story like that....perhaps.

Otherwise I think you are smoking something you should not be! :=

[jowalsh]

No not at all.

[jowalsh]

I am one of the survivors to the Flinders island plan crash from October the 15th 2010.

I am devastated to be told this was just an accident. There has to be something I can do to get the Aviation law changed I am not looking for money but I am looking for justice because if this was a car accident he would be facing lose of license and being charged.

I am hoping you can help me.

[PLovett]

jowalsh, have you been officially informed by CASA that they are not pursuing legal action against the pilot? If so, did they give you any reasons for that decision?

If you have not heard anything from CASA I am not surprised. Their wheels grind incredibly slowly and often legal action can be years later.

[compressor stall]

Jowalsh, with respect, what do you mean by "just an accident?"

Would you be less devastated if it was deliberate or negligent?:confused:

[1a sound asleep]

From ATSB

On 15 October 2010, the pilot of a Gippsland Aeronautics GA-8 Airvan, registered VH-DQP, was conducting a charter flight from Lady Barron, Flinders Island to Bridport, Tasmania with six passengers on board. The aircraft departed Lady Barron Aerodrome at about 1700 Australian Eastern Daylight-saving Time and entered instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) several minutes afterwards while climbing to the intended cruising altitude of about 1,500 ft. The pilot did not hold a command instrument rating and the aircraft was not equipped for flight in IMC.

He attempted to turn the aircraft to return to Lady Barron Aerodrome but became lost, steering instead towards high ground in the Strzelecki National Park in the south-east of Flinders Island.
At about 1715, the aircraft exited cloud in the Strzelecki National Park, very close to the ground. The pilot turned to the left, entering a small valley in which he could neither turn the aircraft nor out climb the terrain. He elected to slow the aircraft to its stalling speed for a forced landing and, moments later, it impacted the tree tops and then the ground. The first passenger to exit the aircraft used the aircraft fire extinguisher to put out a small fire that had begun beneath the engine. The other passengers and the pilot then exited the aircraft safely. One passenger was slightly injured during the impact; the pilot and other passengers were uninjured.

During the night, all of the occupants of the aircraft were rescued by helicopter and taken to the hospital in Whitemark, Flinders Island.

Photo--> http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/2482259/ao2010080_fig8.jpg

[The Green Goblin]

am one of the survivors to the Flinders island plan crash from October the 15th 2010.

I am devastated to be told this was just an accident. There has to be something I can do to get the Aviation law changed I am not looking for money but I am looking for justice because if this was a car accident he would be facing lose of license and being charged.

I am hoping you can help me.

I am sorry for your experience, an aircraft accident can be a very traumatic experience. Especially in the months and years to come.

What I wish you to think about, is did the Pilot deliberately do this to you? Did he intentionally put you in danger? No, I think not.

What happened was poor judgement, and he did the best to get you back on the ground safely in poor conditions that he was not qualified to fly in.

Had he not put her down in the trees, you probably would have ended up in the side of a hill.

This is an accident (not a deliberate). The Pilot made poor decisions which put you in the situation, and he made good ones to get you out of it the best way he could.

[prospector]

I would differ from that assessment, how can one commence a flight

"in poor conditions that he was not qualified to fly in". and not be responsible for the inevitable outcome?



" did the Pilot deliberately do this to you?" given the rest of the facts I would say yes. not intentionally perhaps, but deliberately, certainly.



"Had he not put her down in the trees, you probably would have ended up in the side of a hill." Is that not where the trees were situated, on the side of a hill?

[PLovett]

I hate the word "accident" in aviation as it implies no responsibility for what has occurred. There is a causal trail that leads to a crash that is the result of deliberate actions on the part of the pilot.

No pilot will deliberately put themselves in a situation where it is more likely than not they will die. After all, they are usually the first to arrive at the crash scene. However, there are a lot of pilots who do not take the time to properly assess the risks they are about to face or totally overestimate their own abilities. As a group pilots are very forgiving of their own, after all, most of us do try to learn from their mistakes and we recognise that in other pilots.

However, there have been too many instances where very poor judgement has been shown by people who should know better. From what I have read this crash appears to fall into that category. The pilot certainly did not start out with the intention of crashing the aircraft but his poor judgement and lack of skills achieved that outcome putting at risk the lives of his passengers. It was only his manual flying skill at the end of the flight that saved his passengers lives BUT it should not have been necessary. Whats the expression.........using superior skill to avoid a situation where it is necessary to use that superior skill.

If the evidence was there I believe this is a case that should have been prosecuted.

[VH-XXX]

I guess we can leave prosecution to the regulators to decide but it does make you wonder what punishment would be appropriate in this instance.

The main question is how does one get into this situation in the first place?

- Poor Judgement
- Lack of training
- Inadequate equipment
- Commercial pressure

In this instance, all of the above.

How can one avoid this in the future?

- Increased training requirements
- Mandatory instrument ratings
- Mandatory aircraft equipment

Can of worms there. Single engine charter VFR only.

You could just say "buyer beware" however how does the travelling public know they are safe with a particular operator? They wouldn't know that the operator doesn't have an instrument rating or training to go with it. This is the problem when you put your life into someone elses hands, time and time again.

People will always make small and large mistakes and I welcome suggestions on how to avoid this.

[fanning]

What about the employer? Why is the employer putting its employees on a single engine charter operator, when there is a RPT operator also on the same service?

Was there a twin engine option available?

Why did the operator concerned fly in this weather? Yes, no pilot plans to crash, no one plans to do that, however simply put, he should NOT have been flying VFR in that weather (I remember the weather on the day quite well, it was well and truly IFR weather) ...

I wish you luck - I'm no lawyer, but there is a reason for why the tort of negligence exists.

[AIREHEAD]

You would think this would be an easy case for CASA to prosecute, The weather was marginal for IFR even, on the day , and was like that all day, although the worst of it coming through in waves. There are some excellent witnesses for the prosecution. ie; the passengers, and I beleive there is some excellent photographs taken by the pax before, during and after the 'accident'

[Wally Mk2]

"xxx"........poor judgment, lack of training & inadequate equip can be rectified to a degree but yr last comment commercial pressure the most challenging can't be fixed especially in today's economic climate. So yr 4 points pretty much sums it up here.
As others have said there's little doubt this pilot got out of bed that morning with the intentions of crashing. He simply had a task to do (the charter) & unless the plane was busted & couldn't be moved or the cloud was on the deck where one couldn't see a foot in front of ones self then this mission was gunna go ahead just like it does all over Oz day in day out & in wx that's questionable. You just never hear of the 'close calls' that would be daily out therein charter-land!
You can't prevent a person on a mission where up to that point in time was or believed it was okay to launch. Hindsight is rarely available b4 hand.

Many years ago I was sitting at Whitemark Airport (YFLI) wanting to go back to EN after a few days fishing on the Is. I was VFR in those days. A/C was VH TIZ, C210 & a mate of mine in an Aztruck. The wx was crap as it can be on the Island. I'd never flown in the vicinity of such lousy wx so was reluctant to turn a wheel but my pax where keen to get going. My mate whom was IFR with an IFR A/C said 4get it. So we stayed put for another 2 days. He had the hindsight that day, I was lucky in some ways!

Everyone survived so lets hope a few learnt from this accident & it makes just one other pilot who is presented with a sim situation stop & think twice.

Commercial pressure, the grim reaper in the back of everyone's mind just waiting!

Wmk2

[PyroTek]

"The pilot was really focused, he did an incredible job," she said.

Fellow passenger Jo Walsh agreed.I am devastated to be told this was just an accident. There has to be something I can do to get the Aviation law changed I am not looking for money but I am looking for justice because if this was a car accident he would be facing lose of license and being charged. So, which opinion are you in agreement with, Jo? The pilot did an incredible job? or that the pilot did this intentionally? or did he do an incredible job of putting an aeroplane in the bushes?:sad:

[Xcel]

Swiss cheese
as others have said...

Company - charter requirements. Why so low? Where was the risk assessment on behalf of employees?
Operator - Training standards. Recruitment standards. Why did it allow a non ifr rated employee with a clear lack of experience in those conditions make a decision that endangered the occupants - including the pilot.
Pilot - how did the last line of defence allow the commercial pressures and others to all a (in hindsight) very poor decision.

An avoidable accident... Absolutely!
Negligence? Absolutely not. IMHO I don't think he had all the tools and information required to make the decision. Ultimately he was in charge but there is a long line of errors prior to getting tothat point...

Company and operators duty of care?
Just glad everyone walked away!!

(p.s I'm no lawyer and don't know the pilot so can't talk of exact circumstances just my opinion from the facts given in the Atsb report.)

[VH-XXX]

Operator - Training standards. Recruitment standards.

Owner operator!

Why did it allow a non ifr rated employee with a clear lack of experience in those conditions make a decision that endangered the occupants - including the pilot.

Owner operator!

Pilot - how did the last line of defence allow the commercial pressures and others to all a (in hindsight) very poor decision.


Owner operator!

An avoidable accident... Absolutely!

Touche!

Negligence? Absolutely not. IMHO I don't think he had all the tools and information required to make the decision. Ultimately he was in charge but there is a long line of errors prior to getting to that point...


Hmmmm... home airfield, earlier flights same day, internet and phone coverage for the weather reports, commercial grade eyesight to view the low lying cloud and fog.... I'd say there was an element of negligence!

[PLovett]

It is interesting that Telstra still allow their employees to travel in single engine aircraft given that somewhere around 15 years ago three of them were killed when a single engine VFR aircraft stalled and crashed on takeoff from Three Hummock Island at the other end of Bass Straight.

Given the weather on the day of the Flinders Island crash, the flight was always going to be scud-running. Now, all of us have probably done it at some stage but I don't without having an escape plan even if that plan involves utilising IFR skills. For those who know Lady Barron will know that there are very limited VFR scud-running routes. The airstrip used points straight at Mt Strezlecki; a turn to the south will point you at Cape Barren Island with Mt Munro with other islands and hills waiting to catch you.

This flight was very poor decision making by the owner-operator. Dollars over sense.

[VH-XXX]

without having an escape plan even if that plan involves utilising IFR skills.

Spot-on! Would much rather have to fill out an ATSB report about how the SE VFR pilot inadvertently entered cloud but landed safely after utilising their IFR skills, rather than putting her down in the tree-tops!

[fanning]

An avoidable accident... Absolutely!
Negligence? Absolutely not. IMHO I don't think he had all the tools and information required to make the decision. Ultimately he was in charge but there is a long line of errors prior to getting tothat point...


You are kidding right? If you don't have the tools and information required, then stay on the god damn ground ! :mad:

Yes, hindsight is wonderful, but it wasn't a 50/50 day kind of day, it was an absolute rat**** of a day, with I'm assuming, an owner/operator with a serious case of get-home-itis as this is a big corporate client - with whom, had he had to remain on the ground, wouldnt look that good for future business from this client ...

[Jabawocky]

Looks worse with dead client employees???

[anothertwit]

In another life i flew that run for just over 18 months, during those two bloody horrible winters and one glorious summer, lost count of the number of times i "poked my head in and had a look" and got away with it, :sad: albeit with only mail on board. I think "complacency" is the word of the day and it's up to the regulator to decide if that adds up to negligence.

As many have said before me, hopefully someone will take a lesson from this and the countless other "accidents" like it. Next time your standing beside your plane trying to see a way through the murkiness and make a go/no go decision, :bored: stop and have a quick think just how important it is to get there today!:ok:

[Di_Vosh]

So, which opinion are you in agreement with, Jo? The pilot did an incredible job? or that the pilot did this intentionally? or did he do an incredible job of putting an aeroplane in the bushes?

Typical commment from some smug 20yo smartarse with no idea! :mad:

Been in many near death experiences have we?

It's entirely possible that just after the accident Jo said that (quoted from a newspaper), and then formed a different opinion later.

From bitter personal experience I can tell you that your thoughts, opinions and emotions will change massively with time after an accident such as this.

DIVOSH!

[lilflyboy262]

@Di_Vosh, those opinions will change depending on what you have heard in the media and who you have been hanging around with.

Plovett, How can you not call it a accident? You still call car crashes accidents don't you? People don't go out with the intentions to crash but it happens.
A large amount of people overestimate their abilities and get caught out. That statement can be applied to multiple phases of life.

I'm getting sick of the GA operators passing the buck onto the pilot when they know better. Although as a 63yr old... He should have known better...

[PLovett]

You still call car crashes accidents don't you?

No, they are still crashes. Intention has nothing to do with it.

[AIREHEAD]

In fact , the word 'accident' has been taken out of police manuals. It is now a crash

[206DOG]

Alot of posts on this forum have commented on the fact that this crash was a single engine aircraft.. Um.. there was no engine problem or failure in this crash!
If the pilot involved had been flying a twin with his experience(not IF rated) he prob would have ended up in the exact same situation!
A CFIT accident or a forced put down due weather have nothing to do with how many engines the plane has..
The fact is if IFR was legal SE and the pilots trained accordingly then a large proportion of SE accidents would be eliminated.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

From Wikipedia

An accident is a specific, unpredictable, unusual and unintended external action which occurs in a particular time and place, with no apparent and deliberate cause but with marked effects. It implies a generally negative outcome which may have been avoided or prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.

Experts in the field of injury prevention avoid use of the term 'accident' to describe events that cause injury in an attempt to highlight the predictable and preventable nature of most injuries. Such incidents are viewed from the perspective of epidemiology - predictable and preventable. Preferred words are more descriptive of the event itself, rather than of its unintended nature (e.g., collision, drowning, fall, etc.)

Accident it was, the circumstances leading to it include gross negligence.

UTR

[HarleyD]

It is interesting that Telstra still allow their employees to travel in single engine aircraftAHA! the old singleengine V twin argument raises its facile head once again.

The munber of engines in NO WAY contributed to this accident. The fact that it was a single actually diminished the chances of fatal and serious injury.

How much safer is a twin? in theory it should be almost infinitely safer than a single, after, an accident in the event of engine failure, which is extremely small even in a single, should be all but infinitesimally small when you have another engine, so twin accident rate (considering they are mostly flown IFR by professional pilots) should be almost non existant. In fact you are only about 40% les likely to have an accident in a twin BUT about 60% more likely to be killed or injured in the event of an accident.

In this case (the 'accident') the occupants were very fortunate to be in a single, but even more fortunate that they were in a recently designed and certified aircraft that meets much higher safety standards than 99% of the clapped out old twins that cut priced operators run on a shoe string. name me one eight seat twin that flew into the side of a hill and everyone walked out of............................waiting..............

A twin has definite safety advantages in some applications, e.g. at cruise, above SE altitude, clear of terrain and below the FZL. I totally understand where wally comes from, driving a B200. When it comes to actually crashing you are better ina single and Waaaaayyy better in a scarevan than almost anything else I can think of, especially clapped out old 402's.

This operator is using the most appropriate type for the jobs involved in that neck of the woods, he made an investment in two brand new GA8's (I think) and this payed off for him ultimately, because even though there is serious concern surrounding the conduct of this particular flight, which I am sure will absolutely NOT be swept under the rug the result was NCD (no person died) as we say in the tower after an intense period of aerial activity.

Say what you wish about the operator, pilot or circumstances, as is typical on PPrune, usually without ANY knowledge of the actual circumstances, but to attribute the accident to the aircraft type is farcical.

HD

[PLovett]

The comment about single engine relates more to the fact that it forces the flight to be VFR (don't start about single engine turbines or singles v multi engine please - it has been done to death on PPRuNe) because if this particular flight had been IFR this thread would not exist. :ugh:

[Brian Abraham]

name me one eight seat twin that flew into the side of a hill and everyone walked out of............................waiting..............

Was there not a 402 parked unintentionally on the side of a mountain at Strahan or Queenstown yonks ago Harley where they walked away? Fading memory and all that.

[HarleyD]

PLovitt Oh yes, I see what you mean now,

IFR Twins never crash, simple. especially not CFIT accidents in bad weather. never happens, and even if they did no one would ever die, the survivors would all probably win tattslotto the very next week.

Sorry, My Bad,

I still say horses for courses, and if you gonna crash, do it in a Scarevan.


Hi Bri !, Cant recall the accident to which you refer, was more in mind of a few Nevergo's and 402's and metros over more recent times perhaps. I say good luck to anyone who can walk (run) away, done it a few times myself and have always been very happy to get (another) fresh start. Clearly I am VERY slow learner.

HD

[PLovett]

Brian & HD, it was a Navajo from memory. Trying to sneak up the King River to get into Queenstown back in the days when there was a low-capacity RPT service there.

HD, sarcasm is not called for. This particular crash was caused by a non-IFR pilot flying into IMC and not having an escape route. An IFR flight would have been climbing through the muck and, yes, there is a way of getting to LSALT out of Lady Barren.

You may well be right about an Airvan's capacity to survive a bingle but preferably, the object of the exercise is to avoid putting yourself in the situation where it is put to the test.

[B772]

From memory the CFIT 'crash' near Queenstown on the West Coast of Tas was a Bizjets C402B on a let down in IMC using the Strahan NDB. The pilot in the LHS was D-R-Y- K-NN-D-. He had just joined Bizjets and was under supervision on a route endorsement.

[anothertwit]

An IFR flight would have been climbing through the muck and, yes, there is a way of getting to LSALT out of Lady Barren.

I beg to differ PLovett, an IFR flight would never have gotten airborne considering the destination. :ugh:

[The Green Goblin]

There has been quite a few Airvan bingles.

Everyone has walked away.

Speaks for the design and justifies those agonizing seats!

[Capt Fathom]

There has been quite a few Airvan bingles.
Everyone has walked away.

Unfortunately, not everyone has!

Airvan, Elcho Island, NT (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/aair/ao-2008-072.aspx)

[VH-XXX]

Surprised he got off the ground in the first place without the prop snapping in half :ouch:

[Stationair8]

The Strahan accident was a Cessna C402B operated by a company called Bizjets out of Essendon in the late 1970's. The aircraft was on an RPT or Reg 203 flight into Strahan, the PIC was checking a new pilot and the approach was flown incorrectly instead of tracking outbound 300 degrees and then tracking back inbound 120 degrees, the pilot under check flew 120 degrees and flew into hillside. Fortunately no one was injured or killed.

Me old mate with the sim at Essendon used to use that incident as a discussion point for budding IFR pilots on correct tracking and orientation!!

[prospector]

"the pilot under check flew 120 degrees and flew into hillside"

And during this massive stuff up the check pilot was doing????

[Brian Abraham]

Thats the one Stationair.

Me old mate with the sim at Essendon

Kieth Hants?

[Wally Mk2]

'S8" & BA" you mean good 'ole Cyril?.............Kieth never did like his first birth name so Keith was it:-) We few who had Keith to guide us in the early days (1982 for me) where very fortunate. I think his old Link trainer is now at the Ansett Sim Center.
What a character, thread drift I know but we shall never forget when learning the intricacies of flying on the round dials was actually taught by one of the industries real gentlemen:-) His CRM was...........sliding back the Link hood saying 'want a cuppa'?.........all the while trying to turn in bound on an NDB in that weird contraption balancing on an air bag!:ok: Looking at yr paper plot after wards you can see when Keith was 'helping' you:ok:




Wmk2

[Stationair8]

Mr Hants was the gentleman that told a young lad the story.

The only saving grace was the pilot in the right seat, when he realised the situation applied climb power and raised the nose abruptly and that is when they stopped!

[BULLDOG 248]

There was another CFIT involving a Cessna 400 Series down near Wonthaggi VOR (east of Melbourne) 20+years ago where everyone walked out ok. Anyone remember what happened????? Was it an approach gone wrong or something else. Aircraft was based out of YMEN or YMMB???

[Checkboard]

It was a very gusty, low cloud day. The aircraft flew out of Essendon to a VFR-only airport, and struck the top of a hill and skidded to a stop under a tree. The pilot claimed that, while he was above the LSALT, he was struck by a microburst, which forced the aircraft down. :hmm: