PDA

View Full Version : VA EBA ???


PammyAnderson
14th Oct 2010, 09:25
I hear Virgin (VA) and the feds have come up on principle with a VA EBA. Anyone care to share what everyone has come up with ?????

Crew rest.
14th Oct 2010, 10:27
No. Not released yet.

The main issues:


Career path for CFOs and SFOs.
More pay.
Overtime payments.
Rostering.Discussion on career path for VA pilots has dominated recent meetings.

virginexcess
14th Oct 2010, 21:14
Feedback I'm getting thru management contact (so maybe BS) is that AFAP ispretty much trying to rehash VB EBA with VIPA trying to be more long haul oriented.

One thing is for sure, the VIPA reps have a truck load more Long Haul experience than the Fed reps. Not sure if that really matters though........

One thing that is certain is that the Feds are supporting individual contracts for the A330 (they said so in latest update). I can't see how this is going to be helpful with the VA EBA.

ad-astra
14th Oct 2010, 22:26
Virginexcess

If your going to be "so certain" about an issue how about you explain the whole issue and the reasoning behind the 'Feds' approach.

Your truckloads of infomation here is a little misleading! :=

orangepeel
14th Oct 2010, 22:36
Like to know what the path is for the CFO?

Anthill
14th Oct 2010, 23:03
Career path for CFOs is that they join VA. The company provides their type rating (as they do for all pilots, including SFOs and CAs). After a time, they can be considered for promotion to SFO (provided that they have the experience level required: Several CFOs have done this) or interview for VB and have ejet/B737 type rating provided for (numerious CFOS have done this).


The word is that separate VA/VB EBAs will eventuate.

neville_nobody
15th Oct 2010, 00:25
interview for VB and have ejet/B737 type rating provided for (numerious CFOS have done this).

While everyone else at VB pays for the endorsement......yeah I can see the VB boys being real happy with that arrangement.:hmm:

KRUSTY 34
15th Oct 2010, 01:39
I'll play Devil's advocate Nev.

The pilots who chose to join VB, did so with the understanding that they were required to be in possesion of a 737/EJ endorsement. Not so for the CFO's at VA. On the other hand, those who joined VA as CFOs were taking a monumental punt with their careers. It was this lack of career progression, and of course the disgraceful T&C's that drew the most criticism from not only myself, but just about everyone else as well. If that punt happens to pay off (at least in some reasonable measure), then really, the pilots at VB shouldn't have a complaint comming.

For the record. If the pilots at VA manage to secure a proper EBA with a defined career path, then finally some industrial justice will have been done. I for one will be pleased not only for them, but for all pilots that have the right to expect reasonable tems and conditions after so many years of hard work. Amazingly, all the angst and bitterness that has been allowed to grow over the past 3 years could have been avoided if common sense amongst management had prevailed from the beginning. Ooops! Sorry, Oxymoron. :E

Oddly, a few VA F/O's and some of their ex-pat mates incorrectly assumed that my past criticism was somehow aimed at them personally, and the resulting venom directed at me was something to behold! :rolleyes:

F111
15th Oct 2010, 02:25
Krusty,

Those CFO signed up for a 777 rating only under a 30 month bond. This bond has now been reduced to 24 months and they are now getting a 737 job ahead of those Ejet FO's who paid for their rating and if they want to move over to the 737 they have to the company another $50000.

KRUSTY 34
15th Oct 2010, 03:21
Fair point F111.

The industrial justice I was refering to was progression (transparent progression that is) within VA itself. If there were to be any sort of formal arrangement with progression from VA to VB, then surely the interests of both pilot groups must be served. VA management made a point of stating that the 2 companies were completely seperate when it suited them (poorer T&C's even though a much larger aircraft), so surely any cross crewing must result in a change to that stance. To this end, I would imagine there needs to ba a fair and transparent negotiation agreed by all parties (VA pilots, VB pilots, and management). Is there such a negotiation under way?

Anything less will more than likely result in friction and pilot group disunity. Errr... wait a minute? Hope it's not too early to break out the bubbly! :(

Seriously
15th Oct 2010, 05:53
Actually it's a 36 month bond and if they do move to VB the time still owed gets added to the bond for the Ejet/737 endorsement

The Green Goblin
15th Oct 2010, 06:15
I'd be happy with a bond. After all, once you join an airline you kind of plan on sticking around don't you?

Seriously
15th Oct 2010, 07:04
Yeah it's difficult to judge tone in text, your quite right! :ok:

virginexcess
15th Oct 2010, 11:56
I don't know the reasoning behind the feds approach.

The only info i based by comment on was an AFAP document that said in part

With this in mind, the AFAP has formed the strategic view that common law contracts would be a workable interim measure until the renegotiation of the existing VB Agreement, provided that pilots were still afforded EBA protections (i.e. work rules, OT, callouts etc) and an undertaking was given by the Company to incorporate the A330 in the next Agreement as outlined above. This was the position put forward at the meeting.

I'm no industrial lawyer, but as a layman, who has an understanding of the VA individual contracts and their limitations, I am greatly concerned that a pilot Union is promoting the use of common law contracts.

But i am open to being convinced otherwise.

Capt Baldman
15th Oct 2010, 12:05
The Fed's are not "Promoting" it at all...there are not that many other options....

Wellhung Unit
15th Oct 2010, 12:38
Capt Baldman is right...maybe "virginexcess" could have posted the part before ....."With this in mind"......
Here it is again, but this time in context and without his "Selective editing"..


Despite some of the ill-informed propaganda on the VB pilots forum apparently originating from XXXX, be advised that the AFAP is not actively promoting common law contracts. Our legal advice is that there is no ability under the Fair Work Act to vary the existing VB agreement to incorporate the A330 operation. Under the transitional provisions of the Act a WorkChoices agreement (which is what the 2007 agreement is) can only be varied in limited circumstances (i.e. to remove ambiguity) which are not relevant in this case. Further an EBA covering the introductory phase of the A330, as XXXX is advocating, would only cover A330 pilots and could only be voted on by pilots engaged on the A330 – currently there are two. This would mean that some 900 pilots would not get a vote – extraordinary!

With this in mind, the AFAP has formed the strategic view that common law contracts would be a workable interim measure until the renegotiation of the existing VB Agreement, provided that pilots were still afforded EBA protections (i.e. work rules, OT, callouts etc) and an undertaking was given by the Company to incorporate the A330 in the next Agreement as outlined above. This was the position put forward at the meeting.


But lets get this forum back on track, VA's EBA

inandout
15th Oct 2010, 21:34
Both the company and the union will/must act carefully here as one leads/influences the other with respect to the VB330/VA777 pay at a time of similar negotiation.

virginexcess
16th Oct 2010, 00:33
There was no selective editing, i just chose the paragraph that, in my view, seemed to contradict the statement that the Feds were "not actively promoting common law contracts"

As i said earlier, i am no lawyer, but my interpretation of the brief is that at best it seems to be ambiguous and is at the very least contradictory. But regardless of my personal interpretation, it certainly seems to imply that they are in fact supporting common laws contracts at this point, albeit as an "interim measure".

I cannot say with authority that in this case common law contracts are a bad thing. What i can say with authority is that the common law contracts that are in existence at VA are a very bad thing for employees because they make it impossible for employees to collectively approach the company about any employment issue. Therefore, each employee is on their own until we get an EBA.

Whether common law contracts at VB for the 330 will prove to be equally disadvantageous for employees is outside my area of expertise.

GAFA
16th Oct 2010, 05:46
Virginexcess,

Under the current regulations regarding EBA's this appears to be the only option. If a change to the current EBA (13 months to run) is done then no industrial action can be undertaken by the pilot group (A330, 737 and Ejet) should the need occur over the next 13 months.

Jetsbest
16th Oct 2010, 09:27
I would have thought that the introduction of a new type not yet covered by an airline's EBA (ie what's it's pay rate going to be?) actually is ambiguous and could, should the parties agree, lead to a 'variation' negotiated under the existing agreement.

But, then again, that would be a test of a company's goodwill and desire to 'engage' with its pilots. Time will tell the VB/VA pilots whether their management are actually their friends, or wedge-drivers. :hmm:

waren9
16th Oct 2010, 10:17
Thats all very well, Mr Hat and I agree with you, but when the managers only get paid with the current years bonus in mind, you can hardly expect anything else, can you?

:hmm:

bangbounceboeing
26th Oct 2010, 23:46
are any figures being mooted around by the AFAP or Viper yet, this seems to have dragging on for a long time. Hopefully something around the 210/140/90 split between capt,fo,cruiser is going to be the minimum they are looking at.:ooh:

F111
27th Oct 2010, 00:51
Unions are after figures about $20 - 30 k more than those above so hopefully something in between will be the final.

KRUSTY 34
27th Oct 2010, 02:39
The REX/A330 thread was locked by the mods before my question(s) could be answered, I'm assuming due lack of relevance?

Are there any indications yet of the type of contract (common Law/EBA) for the proposed A330 operation? And if so, does anyone know yet what the Terms and Conditions will be?

Genuine question! :\

Hugh Jarse
27th Oct 2010, 03:25
Err Krusty,
I think this thread is about the V Australia (B777) EBA.:)

The A330's will be flown by Virgin Blue crew, on conditions yet to be negotiated.

I did see the other thread, but can't work out where Rex pilots fit into the equation, considering there were over 130 EOI's from internal applicants (more than enough to crew the first 2 aircraft).:)

Bigboeingboy
27th Oct 2010, 03:26
When is the next 777 due for VA. Will they hire the DEC's that were told to expect recruitment mid this year?

Visual Landing
27th Oct 2010, 03:59
There will be no more DEC.

KRUSTY 34
27th Oct 2010, 04:54
Thanks Hugh', fair point.

Am I to assume then that the 777 is here to stay. 4 types! Getting a bit like that other airline quite a few once worked for.:ooh:

Bigboeingboy
27th Oct 2010, 05:04
Thanks Visual Landing. Do you know that for sure? There are people around that think they have a LHS job coming up....are they dreaming?

ad-astra
27th Oct 2010, 05:36
Yes they are.

inandout
28th Oct 2010, 06:01
Unfortunately the $ fiqure more likely to be around 5, after this weeks talks hopefully some light on this will be forth coming.

PammyAnderson
28th Oct 2010, 09:40
I believe the company's offer was released today to the troops.....
Does anyone want to be brave enough to tell us what they have offered ????

slice
29th Oct 2010, 00:55
737 + 5% :eek:

KRUSTY 34
29th Oct 2010, 05:51
Wait a minute!

5% more than the 737 to fly the 777. Yet they offer 20% less than the 737 to fly the E-Jet!

Tell me I've misread this? :sad:

mustman
29th Oct 2010, 06:25
So how is it looking for the Cruise FOs?

Chance of progression? Getting paid a real FOs wage?

flamingmoe
29th Oct 2010, 07:20
That would all be well and good, if they were in fact F/O's, and not CRZ F/O's Mustman.

orangepeel
29th Oct 2010, 09:09
Dont forget - these CZFO's accepted the job in the first place - knowing the conditions....

Now they are complaining....

If they want a real job/wage - they can leave....

Fuel-Off
29th Oct 2010, 11:57
Orangepeel has a point...same goes for the JQ boys and girls bleeting about being undercut by the Singaporean operation when they did the same to us here at home!!

Fuel-Off :ok:

slice
29th Oct 2010, 13:03
Sorry I have no idea what the VA 777 offer is - I was refering to the Domestic (VB) A330 salary.

PammyAnderson
31st Oct 2010, 00:58
So no one in VA brave enough to say what the company offer was hey???

inandout
31st Oct 2010, 02:06
PA, there hasn't been a release to the pilots yet with actual fiqures. Also only around 35% of VA pilots belong to VIPA or AFAP and that says something, and of those only a handfull are really doing anything to promote their conditions. The AFAP have meeting scheduled re this at various cities.

Red Jet
31st Oct 2010, 02:06
PammyAnderson So no one in VA brave enough to say what the company offer was hey???

I hardly think "bravery" is a pre-requisite for making anonymous postings on PPRuNE.

EBA-time is a time for playing your cards wisely and VIPA and AFAP members will be kept abreast through union briefings. If you have an actual interest in the outcome of the VA EBA-negotiations and you're NOT a member of either union, you bloody well DESERVE to be kept in the dark. I can't be any more blunt about that. If you're a V Australia flight crew member and STILL not a union member - get off you're arse - call your preferred union and register as a member, and in return you will receive the acceptance of your peers, protection if you f#$k something up and experienced negotiators going to bat for your terms and conditions at this critical time.

Voz1
31st Oct 2010, 23:22
In a nut shell,
Super 9%:mad::mad::mad:
10 Days off in 28
Salary
From the first full pay period after 1 July 2011 , the following salary structure will be implemented.
Level CRFO...SFO...CAPT
1 $60,000 $90,000 $160,000
2 $65,000 $98,000 $166,000
3 $70,000 $195,000 $172,000
4 $75,000 $112,00 $179,000
5 $80,000 $119,000 $186,000

Level SFO.....CAPT
6. $126,000 $193,000
7. $132,000 $201,000
8. $138,000 $209,000
9 $144,000 $217,000
10 $150,000 $225,000
Basically the deal is this, if you are currently employed by VA you will come in at level 3 for a CRFO and level 7 SFO/Capt, the clincher is this, when your upgraded or if you are a new recruit, you will fall back to level 1. i.e. a SFO get’s a command in 2 years, will fall into level 1 command pay =$160,000 a $10K pay rise……………:mad::mad::mad:
Annual leave is based on 42 Days
Overtime to be discussed
Cancel accommodation $80
URTI = 10 Days
Career Progression (to be inserted):mad::mad::mad:
No own way travel
Allowances Time Period Ammount
Breakfast 0600-0800 ......$25,00
Lunch 1200-1400 ...........$35.55
Dinner 1800-2200 ...........$49.50
Incidentals For each 24hr period $24.05
I for one will be voting for an application to the powers that be for a "stop work" approval. Enough is enough, months of talks and the company put this forward. Only a few weeks ago JB asked for our assistance in helping him fix internal issues to do with moral an general management problems that have surfaced from the Gallop survey, and now this, just a few weeks out from the holiday season:D:D:D

Apparently VIPA walked out on talks last week, and the AFAP stayed on until the end, both have put out memos, asking member for a get together and chat next month.

I see a $H!t storm on the horizon.

Sorry pprune dosent seem to like tabs and spaces so pay structure a bit hard to understand in more ways than one.
:O

The Bunglerat
1st Nov 2010, 07:58
O yes and VIPA walked out on talks last week, and the AFAP stayed on until the end, both have put out memos, asking member for a get together and chat next month.

Sounds about right. I concede that, until now, I've been sitting on the fence for some time on the union issue, but after much deliberation I've made my decision: IMHO, VIPA seem to be genuinely interested in getting a good deal for their members. Conversely, the AFAP seem to be interested only in getting a deal, any deal.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Visual Landing
1st Nov 2010, 08:11
The Bunglerat
I think you need to get the facts correct with regard to the VA EBA and Vipa. Vipa appear to be ill prepared. Both unions have called for breaks etc. If you call that walking out then both sides have done it. And no, I dont believe any union has left the other alone with the company. But lets not let the facts get in the way... after all it is a rumour network.

ad-astra
1st Nov 2010, 08:40
Voz1

As you already probably know a VB 737 Capt will be on $190,334 on the 1 July 2011.

Taking into account our overtime payments/day off payments/rostering principles and lifestyle they are offering a shit sandwich for the 777 operation and they know it.

captwawa
1st Nov 2010, 08:46
Voz1

I think you have delusions of grandeur for Level 3 SFO salaries!

1 $60,000 $90,000 $160,000
2 $65,000 $98,000 $166,000
3 $70,000 $195,000 $172,000
4 $75,000 $112,00 $179,000


That is what it should be at, but you know who continue the race to the bottom for conditions, it is a neck and neck race and the good oil is on them taking the cup!

Onya :confused:

43Inches
1st Nov 2010, 08:57
Voz1,

Are you sure you havn't made a mistake and posted the QLink Dash-8 salaries?

PammyAnderson
1st Nov 2010, 09:41
Holly S*itballs !!!! No wonder some wanted to keep it quiet.
What a disgraceful offer. A pay cut for new captains ! WTF !
I really hope you all band together and through this back at them and hard...

captwawa
1st Nov 2010, 11:25
Pammy,

Can nearly guarantee that they won't band together.

After all that is how they got in - individual contracts and every 'man' for them self. What would make them change their attitude now - even when the thrill of flying the big new jet has worn off. As they say 'the thrill has gone'.

Conditions for international airline pilots - I don't think so. Conditions are so low they should be driving a submarine!

Warped Wings
1st Nov 2010, 15:14
One thing has become quite clear throught these discussions, the CURRENT AFAP is in bed with VB management.

Care to explain your evidence to support your claim? I've just read the AFAP briefing to VA pilots, and it certainly doesn't reflect a union "in bed" with anyone. Quite the contrary.

If your going to make that kind of claim on a public forum, at least back it up with some substance.

fmcinop
1st Nov 2010, 20:18
I have just read the AFAP memo as well. It certainly does not suggest an organization in bed with the company, quite the opposite in fact. Yet another accusation based on utter rubbish. For Christ sake yet your facts straight before posting such rot!:ugh:

PBN
2nd Nov 2010, 02:54
WTF!!!!!!:eek: This is very disapointing $160 for 777 command upgrade. PB pay more than that.

PammyAnderson
2nd Nov 2010, 03:01
PBN says: WTF!!!!!! This is very disapointing $160 for 777 command upgrade. PB pay more than that.

Not when you convert it to OZ dollars from Hobbit dollars. Is more like A120.
But either way both pays are woeful...

Tankengine
2nd Nov 2010, 04:08
And some of you put shit on Qantas S/Os??:confused::ugh:

bangbounceboeing
2nd Nov 2010, 23:44
bloody hell, 160k for a triple 7 command, surely the race to the bottom has been won:(

timewise
3rd Nov 2010, 01:24
At least we know now why 'our saviour' Mr Borgehetti kept that D**k as the head of the HR dept, is that what they term 'good guy' 'bad guy' ? JB don't ask your staff for any more favours when the S**t hits the fan again if you are going to offer this sort of Garbage and as far as Va senior flight management you should hang your heads in shame if you are support this nonsense.:=

maui
3rd Nov 2010, 03:44
Mr Hat. and ors

In no way seeking to undermine the fundemental right of every worker to extract the maximum available, I think a reality check is in order.

The published figures, for Captains, is considerably in excess of that on offer in many contracts around the world.

Lowest paid international widebody's in Australia, most emphatically YES. Lowest in the world, not by a long shot.

A bit of research is in order before making wild unsubstantiated claims.

In the meantime, go your hardest guys. Get whatever the market will bear. That is your right, and your obligation to the fraternity.

Maui

KRUSTY 34
3rd Nov 2010, 04:09
Well said maui.

Be good to have you standing shoulder to shoulder with them. :ok:

Mr. Hat
3rd Nov 2010, 04:18
My wild unsubstantiated claim corrected just for you maui.

maui
3rd Nov 2010, 04:42
Aw geez guys. Now I'm feeling warm and fuzzy.

M

bogdantheturnipboy
3rd Nov 2010, 05:12
I think I am going to get my head chopped off when I say the following;

I respect the knowledge, skill and the huge responsibility of say a B777 captain and I recognise that the pay is somewhat less than other Australian airlines, but I still can't help think - well how much is enough pay?
I remember reading that one's happiness does not improve past $100 000. When I see a figure around $200 000 I seriously think - does anyone really need that much money? There are so many that have so little, in my little brain it just sort of seems a bit crazy Yes we live in a society where, that is the main way we reward people's skill - but is anyone really "worth" that much? Maybe no one would do the job if the didn't get this sort of pay.

Don't freak out by my comments, it's just food for thought.........

neville_nobody
3rd Nov 2010, 05:21
There are so many that have so little

Who live in countries that have so much. Think Africa, PNG etc. If the country got organised then they to would be wealthy. Zimbabwe is a case in point they had so much but just pi$$d it up against the wall.

That aside, those salaries published are higher than most of their US competitors for a 777. Be careful they don't turnaround and start a US base...unlikely but a possibility if the wage keeps going up. United have >1000 pilots on furlough.

Nulli Secundus
3rd Nov 2010, 06:25
.....Zimbabwe is a case in point they had so much but just pi$$d it up against the wall......


Bit more to it than that Neville............ decades & sometime 100's of years of colonial rule mean it will take generations before skills and opportunities return to these places. There may be wealth but even today it hardly ever makes it to the average citizen.

Regarding EBA's etc., unfortunately, we have to accept the big end of town have got their hands on the transport sector on a huge scale. Private equity players don't get excited or passionate about great service, long established brands or customer satisfaction. They don't aspire to skill upgrades or advancing their technical expertise. ITS A VEHICLE FOR THEM TO MAKE MONEY - WITH YOU DRIVING!
Play the same game as best you can. If you really wish/ need to stay in transport, you have to develop other revenue streams.

What I think is definitely up for debate though is the bond. If the job is no longer as valuable (i.e continues to earn a lower remuneration) why should I pay so much for the training, either in dollar terms or by way of a bond???

Any comments?

Mr. Hat
3rd Nov 2010, 07:20
Started writing a reply and just concluded that I'm completely out of touch and possibly upsetting/offending people.

I've gone one better and deleted my posts as they are really way off the mark when comparing it with some of the stuff written here.

Mr. Hat self banning from a thread due to his way out ideological differences....

Seriously
3rd Nov 2010, 13:54
Don't do that, ruins the excitement of looking at PPRune! Look i think everyone is getting abit carried away with this, I am in no way a company rep:oh: But in bargaining the company has to go low, however most of the crew beleive they went too low:*. No one in their right mind would vote for such a :mad::mad::mad::mad:deal. So lets see how it all pans out. But if it drags out i think there may be trouble down the line:sad:

bangbounceboeing
3rd Nov 2010, 21:44
looks like the middle east carriers are going to have a good supply of 777 rated pilots on there books again soon:sad:

Tankengine
3rd Nov 2010, 22:48
Qantas mainline is the standard, go from there!:ok:
777 @ QF744 pay, it is much bigger than A330.:E

AirborneSoon
4th Nov 2010, 00:10
Qantas mainline is the standard, go from there!
777 @ QF744 pay, it is much bigger than A330.

That may well be the standard you are wishing for. But the simple fact remains that if no-one else in the industry is offering similar than it's not a standard, it's an exception. :=

porch monkey
4th Nov 2010, 05:12
Hey Bogdan, go read Sully's book, and them come back and tell me what YOU think is fair compensation. We don't get paid for the every day operation. We get paid on what we're supposed to do when things turn to shit. Bet if you're on a plane where things turn to shit you'd up your value, if you thought it would help you get there in one piece.

Tankengine
4th Nov 2010, 08:13
Airborne soon,
There are more QF pilots than any other airlines' in Australia so why are they NOT the standard?:confused:

Also - I am not "wishing" for QF pay [already get it]
QF doesn't want to offer our conditions either, we have to fight for them,
next year perhaps fight pretty hard!:ugh:

AirborneSoon
4th Nov 2010, 22:20
Well you go and put up the good fight then. But just claiming it should be the standard will not induce other airlines to offer those same conditions. :ugh: Whilst ever someone, somewhere is willing to work for less, why should they? Business these days works on the principle of viable alternatives....

1. Once there are no viable alternatives (within Oz or most of the world) for highly paid QF pilots then the rapid erosion of your conditions will ensue. Your bargaining with the company will be based on well it's still better than all the other jobs out there, leave if you want but we don't think you will.

2. Couple that situation with an overall reduction in the fleet, by consolidating QF brand onto a few key premium routes and J* everywhere else and you've got the perfect conditions for redundancy and so who wants to keep their job?

Other airlines are not about to step up and provide a viable alternative for QF pilots.

Tankengine
4th Nov 2010, 23:41
Yep, we should all give up and take the lowest pay that is offered in the pacific.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Not me buddy!:mad:

Grow some spine!

bustard
4th Nov 2010, 23:45
How much is a well trained, heavy jet, international crew worth? Ask the passengers relaxing in a Singapore hotel right now.

t_cas
5th Nov 2010, 00:12
What Bustard said.

inandout
5th Nov 2010, 01:16
Also what Bastard said; trouble today is from plumbers to those that move money and instruments around screens in high rises, most are paid more than the FOs at airlines. Something wrong here.

RYAN TCAD
5th Nov 2010, 21:36
The race continues...

High-Bypass
6th Nov 2010, 15:28
$60K p.a. is a paycut for most GA/Turboprop pilots
$90K p.a. is a paycut for most F/Os with 2000 hrs jet >40T (or whatever the SFO requirement is)
$160K p.a. is a massive pay cut for anyone with jet command >40T

Go forth you VIPA and AIPA members with strong heart and soul because if it all turns to custard, in the middle of the night, in the middle of the pacific, the hospitality of 300+ ppl are on your shoulders alone, plus their families and the livelihood/reputation of your fellow employees and company.

The Bunglerat
6th Nov 2010, 23:10
While everyones' mouths are dropping at the figures put on the table, what I'm astonished at is the fact that when HR were queried on what the company's expectations were for productivity/hours worked by the pilot group in return for these figures, their response was "38 hour week."

In other words, the people representing HR and the company in these negotiations simply have no concept of the working hours and environment of a professional pilot. If we're going to go down that path, does this mean we should now be pushing for time-and-a-half pay for weekends? How about double-time for public holidays too? Or are we now going to close down over Christmas and Easter?!?

Up to this point I've been very impressed with our new fearless leader, and there's no question he is a much needed breath of fresh air after God Bretfrey. However, I can't help but ask myself right now if he is aware just what kind of people are representing his company in these negotiations? And if so, what is he doing about it? Because if this is the calibre of people he has endorsed to conduct negotiations for and on behalf of the airline, it seriously undermines his reputation as a highly respected airline executive. No-one should know better than JB that this is anything BUT a Monday-Friday, 9-to-5 industry, but clearly no-one has yet informed his HR people. :ugh:

george K
7th Nov 2010, 01:42
A friend of mine who is truck driver with linfox earnt $110,000 last year

VA f/o earns $90,000

WHO IS SMARTER ???

Visual Landing
7th Nov 2010, 01:55
Actually George, VA FO earns more than your mate, even before super.

psycho joe
7th Nov 2010, 03:04
While everyones' mouths are dropping at the figures put on the table, what I'm astonished at is the fact that when HR were queried on what the company's expectations were for productivity/hours worked by the pilot group in return for these figures, their response was "38 hour week."

In other words, the people representing HR and the company in these negotiations simply have no concept of the working hours and environment of a professional pilot. If we're going to go down that path, does this mean we should now be pushing for time-and-a-half pay for weekends? How about double-time for public holidays too? Or are we now going to close down over Christmas and Easter?!?



I say exploit their ignorance.


All aircraft cockpits to be fitted with funky ergonomic chairs


All pilots get full body massage on board.


A water cooler installed in cockpit.


On board BBQ's every friday.


Performance bonuses for every landing that is preceded by a take off.


No sign on before 0900 and last flight for the day ends at 1645

And everyone gets a free laptop.

bustard
9th Nov 2010, 01:19
Seems the global aviation industry is emerging from the GFC.

The latest inbox missive includes a mix of jobs for Line Capts, F/o's, Trainers and Examiners with B777 experience. The airlines include Asiana, Korean, Vietnam and someone in India.

Singapore and China are accepting non-type rated B744 drivers to haul cargo.

And let's not forget the opportunities in the Middle East.

It's about to get interesting...

Crew rest.
14th Nov 2010, 04:27
George,

VA FOs are on a base of $123k + bonus (ave about $3k) + 12% super and the company supplies the type rating. Not quite Qantas, but better than Jetstar.

Although the EBA proposal is crap, I think that some aspects will be seriously considered. In along way management is relying on the pilot group recognising that there is some thing it it for most existing crew:


CFOs get a payscale up to $80k.
FO get up to $150k and will have a career path onto the B777
Captains will have the prospect of up to $225k.


Remembering that super will go down to 9% so will be less attractive than initially appears.

For existing crew, it could represent a very slight improvement. For the crew that are subsequently employed, it is retrograde. A combined VB/VA EBA would probably mean that there is no career path for the VA FOs. For that reason, a joint EBA would not be supported by that (crucial) group.

Enhanced conditions gained by way of a joint EBA will have to facilitate a career path for current VA FOs into command positions on the B777, in accordance to what was offered to them at initial interview.

timewise
14th Nov 2010, 19:08
If any existing 'V' crew member even considers this ridiculous 'offer' then they really are as silly as management hopes.

Sit down and do some simple sums based on something like 2 years as a cruiser then another 5 years to a command, you will see based on going back to level 1 with each 'promotion' it will take many many years to re-coup your losses based even on todays miserable package.

The only person that MAY benefit slightly is an existing cruiser who hopes to 'move' to VB in a year or so and if thats the case ask the poor existing cruisers who have been well and truly screwed by the existing system and have been considered 'not worthy' of an f/o slot in VB despite having 1000's of hours,but hey go back to 'V' because you are good enough for that job.

The offer is CRAP and should be treated as such.

porch monkey
15th Nov 2010, 01:25
That cuts both ways tho Timewise. There were several good captains at VB who wanted to go over, some with 777 time who were also told "not suitable", but "you're welcome to stay on the 737" Go figure.

rammel
15th Nov 2010, 06:25
Why do pilots refer to superanuation contributions as being additional to their salary. As far as I Know they are not. If you get anything over what is legally mandated then mention that, not what you would be getting anyway.

It's not a criticism of anyone in particular, you see it in all threads re pilots wages, be it QF, JQ, VB or TT.

Voz1
15th Nov 2010, 07:20
Hence the reason it has been mentioned in this thread. 12%

Red Jet
15th Nov 2010, 08:46
Why do pilots refer to superanuation contributions as being additional to their salary
Perhaps because super annuation is not part of the deal when working on contracts in Asia and other places?

Voz1
17th Nov 2010, 10:05
Any word on the revised draft agreement from the company??? Due out on or before Nov 15th.

No Idea Either
17th Nov 2010, 22:06
I've worked for VB for a looooooong time. Didn't stick my hand up for the tripler because as previously mentioned, "it's a shit sandwich." We all wondered why the head of HR survived the purge, now we know. I would hazard a guess that as soon as T####r screws over all the different work groups over the next few years, running his black ops style negotiation, then he will cop his bonus and either leave or be pushed. This move by management with regards to the VA EBA in their opinion is brilliant I'm sure. The SFO's and FO's are trapped here. Most have left good paying legacy jobs, albeit overseas jobs, and come home for some of the worst conditions in the world. Now, they will vote this in because they desperately need the job, they cant go back. The conditions may improve slightly through negotiation but not much. Reaping what has been sown, I suppose. Just hope our EBA goes better.

virginexcess
17th Nov 2010, 22:48
Now, they will vote this in because they desperately need the job, they cant go back.

I don't understand. Why will they have to vote it in.

I would suggest that it continually gets voted down until such stage as it is taken to FWA or Protected Industrial Action is granted by the commission.

pettycoat pilot
17th Jan 2011, 20:39
I agree with you guys, but thought you may need to hear this = heaps of VA crews (pilots) have joined AIPA! :D (no, not VIPA)

They have a tad more experience with EBA's but equally important, if your "in the sh-t" whilst OS they will help. :ok:

PCP

Visual Landing
18th Jan 2011, 01:38
To my knowledge there havent been any that have joined AIPA. I suppose there could be the odd 1 or 2, but heaps? I don't think so.

virginexcess
18th Jan 2011, 02:51
There has been only one actual approach to AIPA by a VA pilot for membership.

Virgin Musthave
20th Jan 2011, 05:05
Why join AIPA anyway ? All the pilots are spineless desperate jerks who have received their punishment for cowardness in the form of low salary and crud conditions. You reap what you sew you clowns.I left this outfit before pilot conditions eroded and I started flying for a real airline when I saw the writing on the wall. Enjoy your pay as it will only get less over time as you gutlessly fold at every bargaining session from now until eternity. If you even had a half a spine you would stick together but that is not the Virgin way is it ? You all think of yourselves, and bend over and take a fulllength from management on every possible occasion. I love talking to some of you and hearing stories of you working two jobs, losing houses and having to putyour kids into public schools. I love it, how absolutely justified, oh how you cry for the goodold days when flying got you laid and got you a house at Ascot, now you cant get laid at Inala and you are in debt for house at Woodridge.
Im off to Costarica now for a milk run and top dollar with two bludge days in between sectors, Reap it losers.

Servo
20th Jan 2011, 05:17
I think our little piston driver missed out on a position, I can see why.

Fire up your PC and log some hours on your KingAir.

What a pathetic individual.

PammyAnderson
20th Jan 2011, 05:24
Virgin Musthave says I love talking to some of you and hearing stories of you working two jobs, losing houses and having to put your kids into public schools. I love it, how absolutely justified

Yes i don't work for them (VA) or know who this clown is.
But come on moderators, time to do something useful for once. People this bitter, nasty and inciting anger should be banned. Get on it.

Pathetic Musthave ! lets be happy about people who may be doing it tough.
You may have done well Goose Stepping through Poland in the 40's.

Tidbinbilla
20th Jan 2011, 06:37
Virgin Musthave won't be around for a while.

A very good example for not PPRuNing PPiSSed.

ozbiggles
20th Jan 2011, 06:40
Must have been on it for awhile!!!!!
He had a 100% record.
11 posts, 11 diatribes over a few months against the village.
Some however may argue he has a point:E

gobbledock
20th Jan 2011, 08:47
Virgin Musthave won't be around for a while.
A very good example for not PPRuNing PPiSSed.
Has one tried to match this individuals posts (rants) with the lunar cycle ? I believe that may also have a possible bearing on said person's 'stability'.
Heaven help whatever airline 'said person' now flies with !!

psycho joe
20th Jan 2011, 10:27
A former CEO perhaps? :E

gobbledock
21st Jan 2011, 22:54
A former CEO perhaps? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif
Now that is funny.
But former CEO of which airline ? A couple of left their posts in the past 18 months.