Why I love the recession!

[recession]

Dear Ppruners,

I know the title may seem a little strange but let me explain. As someone who has had to save up years and years to be able to achieve my dream of flying commercially, it has been heatbreaking that just as I got to the point where I could finance the fATPL (and have a safety net of a few years without getting my lucky break), that the market got flooded by thousands of youngsters indebted up to their eyeballs.

Traditionally, there has always been those who have parents willing to throw tens of thousands of pounds at their children to give them an advantage over others, but the silver-spooners never added up to any great number in the grand scheme of things. As such, those who were committed to getting a seat up front and who were willing to give up the good things in life for many years in order to create the possibility of this happening, more often than not did get their dream.

Unfortunately in recent times the banks decided to get very, very greedy , resulting in thousands of youngsters being allowed access to vast sums of money which previously they would never have been allowed anywhere near. The end result being that every Tom, Dick and Harry (and their sisters) were all presented with the opportunity of getting a fATPL without having to go out and find work in the real world (and discover how little it pays), or forego all the partying that one should be doing in the twenties and early thirties.

A situation was thus created whereby those of us who had saved for years and years to fund their training were no longer competing with the usual number of young ones but instead were up against thousands of late teens/early twenties who were being financed by virtue of parents securing considerable loans on their homes (note the word home and not house). The sad fact is that airlines choose the young ones over the older candidates every day of the week, effectively ending the dream for all those who had given up so much over the years.

This situation looked like having no end.....until the recession hit. Prior to this, young jet johnny and jet jill would abuse their parents' love and emotionally blackmail them into putting their house up as a guarantee. Year on year all the maturer candidates were being stepped over again and again, with no reward for their sacrifices. My, how easy this game was for the young ones these last few years - get someone else to work all their years to afford a property, then get them to put it all at risk so you can access to the sums of money required, then get a jet job that pays enough for all repayments AND a nice lifestyle AND be able to tell everyone in the nightclub you are a jet pilot.

Shame your actions have decimated the terms and conditions. Never mind that you were willing to have your parents home taken off them.

After being passed over repeatedly by the young ones, I am regretfully bitter. So forgive the following.

I LOVE THE RECESSION!

I want every one of you little tykes to have your parents' homes taken by the banks. I want you to have to go bankrupt! You have cheated me and my kind for too long. It is now payback. You want my dream? Well do what I have had to do and EARN it. Take all the risks yourself like I have had to. Work all the hours I have had to. Miss all the family parties, friend's birthdays, etc. If your parents were stupid enough to gamble all on your laziness, TOUGH!!!

Those who gambled and got away with it the last few years - and I know so many - were lucky to do so. The banks are not willing to give it out any more, finally.

For all those youing ones who began training in the last few years, I hope the recession goes on for longer. I have the funds ready for when things pick up. Not only are you stuggling to repay your fATPL loan now, but you will not be given any more funds to renew licences, ratings or pay for a type rating. You will never get access to those funds again. Your bankruptcy will ensure that. You have blown your big dream forever. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!

For all those mature guys out there - our funds are ready, as are our seats. Believe!!!

[Southwestnewbie]

:D:ok::ok::ok:

[ToneTheWone]

You really are one nasty piece of work!

Enjoy your day:O

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Well well recession.....bitter are we???

I sincerely hope your unprofessional and nasty, bitter attitude shows through if you do finally make it to an interview.

Well done on saving up the money for your training. Now go and spend it on something else because at the moment I'm not aware of any commercial aircraft with 2 front seats large enough to accommodate you and that massive chip on your shoulder. Enjoy the recession and your day job.

[vserian]

Looks like something is crying badly in front of a monitor because it never had the chance to drive a 737 while rich studs 10 years younger than it are doing that....

Enjoy your usual 2 dollar lunch

[go around flaps15]

Get back on that highchair Mummy is ready to feed the little troll.

[student88]

Yawn - don't feed the troll. Best thing to do is totally ignore posts like this. Don't waste your time on him/her by writing a reply.

[G-FATTY]

Who stirred the beast!?

I loved the last line, he/she is including themselves in the 'mature category'! :hmm:

[Superpilot]

Well at least it's a post from the heart. A post from someone who has done everything right but had everything go wrong. A post from someone who is not given the same fair assessment opportunities simply because he self sponsored himself and trained at his own pace (not because he wanted to but because he had no choice).

Know the feeling. Many of us do. :D :D :D

Want to go to the next Pilot Recruitment Exhibition together? :E

[TheGlide]

Recession makes a good point, people are mad to borrow to fund there training having done it myself looking back i probably wouldnt have done it even though i have a great flying job earning 4-5 k after tax a month.

[humanperformer]

recession :ok:

[blackybirdy]

recession is like a storm, it cleans the sky of its particles of dust followed by a great sunshine.

many shaky business have been wiped out by this 2008-2009 recession, now the sky is almost clear to start business on a new horizon.

but how far is the next storm with its clear air turbulences?

[Aerouk]

I don't see why you have such a grudge on those with more money than you, perhaps your parents should have worked harder :ok:

[mcgoo]

It doesn't read like he has a grudge of those with more money, more a grudge against those with no money that borrowed heavily and/or gambled their parents home.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I managed to save a chunk towards my training but still needed a large loan to fund the rest. Without my parents support there wasn't a chance I could have done this. The loan wasn't entered into lightly and there were many difficult discussions before we went ahead. No emotional blackmail took place.....any hint of that and my folks would have slapped me into next week!

As far as "gambling on my parents home". It was never a gamble because of the important business plan that accompanied my application. The loan application form took an hour. My business plan that went along with it took 3 weeks! The key has always been to assess the realistic ability of making the demanding repayments at the end no matter what the pilot jobs market. Have a plan B and C (and plan B and C is NOT run to mummy and daddy for money!!!)....it's not really a gamble. Having only a plan A ie train, qualify and get a job within a few months is the really dangerous gamble and those are the ones that should be shot for being so flippant with their parents home.

Just my thoughts. We all get there in different ways and I'm not going to apologise for borrowing money to train. I can service the debt and that's what really matters.

Evening All

2W2R :ok:

[Gyro Drift]

Nicely put 2W2R. Everyone goes about funding their training in many diffrerent ways. It is NOT fair to stereotype and place people in one category.

[Grass strip basher]

Whilst Recession's post comes across as a bit of a rant unfortunately there is an element of truth in what he says. Most likely the people that can't see that are no doubt in their teens or early 20s looking to borrow 50-60k to fund an integrated course....:\

CTCpilot you post is just embarrassing... (perhaps make use of the "delete" function??)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Recently some Oats APP bods have attended interviews for an airline job requiring a £35,000 type rating payment. As I believe the Oxford bit costs £75,000 I couldn't help but raise my eyebrow at the financial firepower being deployed by some people in their early 20's.

I don't know where the money comes from or whether it's real or credit. But come it does.

This thread is useful as Wannabes might as well fully grasp the politics of wannabeism. Which is what the thread is about.


WWW

[Grass strip basher]

CTCPilot you wouldn't happen to have gone integrated and now have a big loan to repay would you??
Well done if you landed a job that pays you enough to service the loan and have a decent quality of life... but would you disagree that T&Cs have declined in the industry because of the desparation of young wanabees to get on the ladder??
Also if you live in HK you will know the cost of living out here is vast and a junior 1st officer salary won't stretch far (are you living in some tiny sh** hole near the airport?.... how does spending 5 quid on a beer when you go out in Central make you feel??). Your posts are laced with almost as much bitterness as Recessions! :O

I for one think Recessions post raises some very very important issues.... late teens/early 20s and GBP 100k in debt.... geeeez some folks need their head examined!!

[Bealzebub]

A strange understanding that "recession" has concerning parents homes as surety.

Firstly, nobody can provide the equity in a house for guarantee purposes other than the owners or mortgagees themselves. Children cannot use a parents house as a guarantee, only the parents could do that.

Secondly, the loans that are secured this way are generally restricted to a limit of no more than 60% of the value of the home, including the charge or further charge.

Thirdly, the parents income (as guarantors for the loan) is usually taken into account for affordability purposes in the event that the payments fall to them. This is the usual position if the loan applicant defaults on the loan payments when due.

Whilst bankruptcy can potentially affect anybody, there is an undercurrent of teenage angst in the thread starters assumption that parents are somehow stupid or oblivious to their offsprings demands and desires. They have a couple of decades of practice of wiping your various orifices without tumbling into bankruptcy as a result. Just as well really, as this seems a favoured communications portal for some.

[riciardi]

http://netzlogbuch.de/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/dontfeedthetroll.jpg

plz die.

[DaFly]

Let's look beyond aviation. How about all those students out there, spending their parent's money on years and years of University. I remember about 20 years back a lot of wet-behind-the-ears engineers, teachers etc driving taxi and frying burgers, because they couldn't get a job but had to pay back study loans.
What I do agree with, however is the problem, that many of the very young guys show some lack of maturity. That maturity, that usually comes with working your first job. If that first job is sitting in the r/h seat next to me, I'd rather have someone sitting there, who financially contributed to getting there.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Great post Bealzebub. Hit the nail on the head. Parents aren't stupid and neither are the bank.

I'm off to drive my lorry now(on my days off from my normal job)...back to the normal job at the weekend.....

Have a good one folks.

2W2R :ok:

[RoyHudd]

A couple of us "mature" ones were comparing notes on cadets yesterday while operating back from the USA. We both felt that a fair number of the young ones who had made it onto jets with no turboprop or instructing apprenticeship were rather cocky. I sense that here from some people too, who seem unduly aggressive about their "right" to be young, inexperienced, and jet pilots.

Fact is, many of them are not much good.

[Wirbelsturm]

Not to mention that 45 years of flying an aluminium tube around the skies trying not to upset the 1st class G+T's is deathly, deathly boring.

Get a real job first then go fly an airliner. They are dull.
:zzz:

[hollingworthp]

Roy,

I am curious about who you fly for if you regularly come into contact with Cadets in an airline that operates transatlantic.

Is is BA?

I thought the SSPs were generally well received on the line?

[norton2005]

And if it is BA, it wouldn't be completely inexperianced guys as cadets on the SSP, as with anyone joining BA would be fleet frozen for 5 years anyway. Which for an SSP would most definately be short haul!

And to the poster, jealousy and hatred are ugly emotions, sure to eat you up inside and sure to make you collapse of high blood pressure and heart problems way before your time, so just deal with it, learn to be happy for others, and get on with your own career. Although I hope never to have to sit in a flight deck for any amount of time with someone with your personality!!

[Aero Mad]

Recession, your post is tragic. I'm young, ambition is one day to get a PPL, CPL and later (:uhoh:) ATPL then rise up the ladder and eventually get to the 'dizzy heights' of captain. One day :)

Sometimes I see some older people (with much more experience in life, I hasten to add), almost condemning teenagers as a human subspecies. And that's when I think - 'haven't got a hope in hell'.

And then I see people such as yourself taking pleasure from the displeasure of others. And frankly, I find that disgusting and sad, that there are members of homo sapiens (although some would argue that people who do such things are not sapiens at all) who are nasty and vengeful enough to even experience such 'emotions', let alone go to such lengths as set up an account on PPRuNe and then vent their rather nasty musings on it.

You should think of the Staines disaster of 1972, where in part conflicts amongst long-standing captains with young upstart co-pilots indirectly caused the deaths of 118 innocent people.

The best I can do is think of you in your office job, proud member of a virtual airline, wasting your life away wishing you'd done something different and hoping that other people will be as unlucky as you.

[NunoVasco]

What a shame!

[INNflight]

He deserves it more than others. Face it, rich spoiled brats! :D

[Aero Mad]

He should also be reminded that not all rich people are spoiled brats. Many of my peers come from nouveau riche families, and yes, some of them are spoiled brats. Stereotypically, they would wear labelled clothes, drive Mercedes and live in Esher, where their fathers are off to London at 7AM. But not all. :sad:

Many of my peers are also comparitively well off. However, many of us live in the middle of nowhere, and see little point in 50 inch televisions :suspect: and other flash items coming from department stores in Knightsbridge. My family are comparitively well off, and our daily run-around is a 21 year old German car. My father makes a habit of wearing tracksuit bottoms with holes in unmentionable places - this is because we (and I talk on behalf of my peers here) do not feel the need to show wealth. In turn, we don't expect many things that others would. My house doesn't have heating. SO WHAT? I just don more layers.

My points is that the world isn't made of new money, not everyone less that 20 are spoiled brats so get some perspective and be less ignorant. It is all to easy to be pessimistic, but you'll be wrong.

[FamousGrouse21]

Personally I feel Recession's post is somewhat bitter, but there are parts of what he said that strike a bell with me. I'm following the advice of some long time posters on Pprune and gradualy training modularly from my ow savings, job as a modest loan towards the end of my training should I need to pay for my own type rating (Please don't hit me for saying that !!). It strikes me that all this remortgaging of houses and masses of easy credit has probably totally flooded the market with low hours pilots over recent years, resulting in Ts and Cs which apart from flight training being enjoyable and flying being a good job, would barely seem worth training for (I mean come on, 80 k to Oxford to potentially end up on the dole or working as a contractor and even then only if you stump up another 25k for a type rating... sure as hell wouldn't wanna bet my parents house on that... i'd go and find something else to do for a few years until things improved). However, if indeed the recession does dramatically reduce the numbers training via the integrated route, i'm all for it. It will hopefully reduce supply and help to drive Ts and Cs backup, as well as result in more openings in the future. If this does happen it would also signal a return to people having to work hard and strive for their position in the front of a jet, as opposed to just bashing out 100k and having it all laid out in front of you. This is my perspective on it anyway... As an after thought... I wonder how many of the integrated lot would have still had the patience to train if they thought from the outset that it was going to take 3 - 7 years? Probably far fewer i'm guessing. Something which will hopefully mean better times around the corner for those who really do love aviation and who are willing to go the distance no matter what it might take.

Grouse

[Mr.Bloggs]

MFF...either of my questioners understand what that is all about?....nothing to do with BA in my case. Cadets are all over the place.

Incidentally, Recession is not wrong IMHO.

[Superpilot]

All those under 25's who think Recession is talking nonsense (I'm not THAT much older myself), I would like you all to post on PPruNe in 5 years time telling us a.) if you have a job and if not, b.) what you feel was the biggest barrier to you getting a job. 9/10 of you will put it down to availability of cash.

Wannabes have given the airlines/FTOs the opportunity to screw us with integrated training so future generations would realise that integrated / airline mentored training (costing double the cost of Modular) is the best way to stand a chance of employment. Now with increasing competition even amongst the integrated/airline mentored students, it's only a matter of time before the airlines/FTOs will have invented a new category of training that only the richest of the rich could afford. That's all it's about, MONEY.

At the heart of Recession's message is total disgust at the lack of FAIR AND EQUAL assessment opportunities for pilots like him (self sponsored, trained at own pace with minimal debt). Airline's would much rather take on extremely young and mostly naive (If the shoe don't fit, don't wear it!) guys who are up to their eyeballs in debt. The latter category is bound to accept any deal offered on the table due to two reasons: 1.) Probably never earned a decent wage anyway and therfore no experience to say no!, 2.) to help their debt situation wheras a 30 yo with a mortgage and a couple of kids COULD NOT (though probably would given the current bad spell). Hence why the likes of BA, BMI, EZ and other airlines in bed with CTC would rather not hire human beings living an ordinary life and having normal everyday needs (such as zero desire for debt!)

Flying is not everything.

[shaun ryder]

I will second RoyHudd's post, our airline has had its fingers burnt on more than one occasion, they were not always cocky, some were little :mad: though. They tended to need more hours line training than the more experienced new starts, some never passed line training and some are now history, don't get me started on the P2F mob!

[Callsign Kilo]

Many of you don't like the tone of recession's post. Neither do I. For one I wouldn't wish bankruptcy on anyone’s parents. I'm a parent myself and until you actually become one, you simply will never quite understand what it means be one and what it actually entails. You will do you damndest to support your child; you want them to succeed and you never want anyone to say that they aren't good enough or that they can't achieve something. However there is always a point where parents should let go of the reigns. It’s a big wide world out there and their siblings require exposure and need to make their own mistakes. It will hopefully mould them into being responsible adults.

However the underlying issues are there to see in recession's post

1. There are too many wannabees with no life experience at all. They are still very much attached to the support system of their parents. They have no financial understanding because they have never been required to show any. Therefore shelling out £100,000 of someone else’s money has no real meaning. Repayment plans, remorgaging, APR, recession...huuh :confused:?

2. If you have no life experience then how can you possibly understand how organisations operate? An effective sales pitch with lots of glossy images of cadets in uniforms, manipulated employment stats and shiny aeroplanes on display will appear like the be all and end all to the naive. Exactly how it is intended to! It is of no surprise that the majority of those attending the "top schools" are in their very early twenties. They believe in 100K or more = Integrated course = jet job with 200hrs or less. Because that’s what they are told. The airlines are glad to buy into this concept because it helps control their cost base. People fume at the likes of EZY and FR only recruiting cadets to sit in the RHS. Yes, they are missing out on a wealth of experience by doing so. Yes they have shot the 'self improver' path of pieces as a result (todays 21 year old integrated bod wouldn't even know what that was; largely because their respective FTO doesn't promote it) HOWEVER remember, these recruitment policies are rolled out by managers, not chief pilots or heads of training.

3. Again no life experience will lead you to thinking that current contracts along with the working terms and conditions of those recruiting are the norm. They probably bare no consequence whatsoever, because the main goal in all of this is to program a FMC and engage the A/P at 1000' AGL (OK I'm being facetious - or am I? :hmm: And after all you have no financial understanding, no financial responsibilities and no experience of the working world, management practice or organisational culture. Now are you wondering why airlines love 21 year old cadets? (by the way, I am in no way implying that current T&Cs are solely to blame on cadets shelling out on integrated courses and SSTRs. It goes much deeper!)

These points just scratch the surface. A few here have picked up on them. I reckon a post like this should be made a sticky. WANABEES - UNDERSTAND THIS, or something along the lines. Probably won't make a difference though, but in full view for all everyone to consider, overprotective parents and overdependent offsprings alike.

[A330ETOPS]

Terrible post by Recession. Probably not genuine either to be honest.

I've had my licence 2.5 years now. currently 23yrs old. Parents put the house down as a guarantor. They haven't give me a penny. Nor have i asked for one. Nor would they be able to give me any money as they aren't rich!

I knew when i started an integrated course that i probably wouldn't get a job straight away, and here i am 2.5 years later!

To be honest, i'm not too bothered. I've worked my arse off post training. 4 days a week and every friday/sat/sunday night without fail. the 5 loans i have are coming down, and am managing to get 2 nice long haul holidays per year, along with 4hrs a month GA flying

Not all people who have their parents help, necessarily have 'their' money

I haven't got any chance of getting more loans etc until my debt is reduced. Saying that, what do i need more money for? I'm certianly not going to give O'Leary any of it to fly his 737's.

The reason i'm not bothered too much about having a job is because i'm still only 23. Loans will be paid in 4 years, and hopefully the market will be a bit better.

[Callsign Kilo]

And it will be 6.5 years since you qualified! Airlines will still be hiring fresh cadets by preference and with be continuing to impose heavy burdens. There will be no shortage of new wanabees and there will be plenty with little concept of reality and access to other peoples money. I can't not sympathise with what you have and will continue to face and I admire your current resolve. However you face an uphill struggle in this harsh environment. I really wish it were otherwise, however I just can't see it.

[A330ETOPS]

Well i'm still a big believer in that it's not what you know but who you know. I've got plenty of contacts out there looking out for me so fingers crossed!

[Callsign Kilo]

Contacts are key. No doubt.

Good Luck

[blackybirdy]

i am still a big believer that this market is screwed from the root to the top of the branch.even if the worldeconomy stand a little chance in the futur,only a few pilots will be hired, letting thousand and thousand of pilots without jobs.
everyday this market produce hundred of pilot who join te unemploment line.
we make too many babies, 100 years ago, we were 5 billion, now we are 6.5, in 10 years we will be over 7 or 8 billions.
sorry guys, but where do you want find jobs for everybody to feed their family?
be used with your 10% unemployment, in the futur it will be 20%.

a solution? yes there is one, forget aviation.only the loosers join aviation.The winers do something else like doctors, IT,...(most of my friends who are not pilot, they make money, real money , they make a living, they feed their kid, an dont borrow money to play on jet plane after filing bankruptcy like you do at Oxord of my two ...you are just a bunch of immature spoiled kids, and you get what you merit: NOTHING).

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

What's best, integrated or modular?

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

a solution? yes there is one, forget aviation.only the loosers join aviation

Wow.....so are you one of us loosers BB or are you someone that wanted to fly but couldn't...sorry I mean figured out what a moronic career flying is, one fit for only theloosers

[G_Orwell]

I agree with your way of achieving your aviation dreams, opposed to the enormous loan option, backed by relatives.
I don't agree with your bitterness. Moreover I would discourage you from unveiling such feelings, this way, in a cockpit during chit-chat.

Hint:You will be amazed how back in time, banks gave out professional / student loans in some parts of the planet. (some still not fully repaid)

[Ganzic]

What a woderfull post! I think it speaks for many pilots who can't afford the training these days. Industry may be screwed up no doubt in that, but hey I didn't finish the Uni without having some debt and I didn't get into a job that was related to my profession until 3 years after.. and certainly not for the top wage, it took some years to get experience and be paid well and respected.... Aviation is no different!

Why should airlines hire 200 hour pilot and put them straing into right seat and pay them top buck? Exactly....

Not all people can afford higher education, and only a few can afford aviation education. If you are patient and persitent - you will have your chance.

Training is expensive, so like any investment needs thorough investigation! Same as you don't buy a house with out looking at it first , or did you?

[Bealzebub]

Same as you don't buy a house with out looking at it first , or did you?

It doesn't really matter. The house will have an intrinsic value even if it is a poor purchase decision, so some of the outlay can be recovered. A licence has none whatsoever. Any value lies in its potential ability as a tool to the individual purchaser.

[johnnyDB]

Food for thought: the market is picking up, there are fresh jobs out there, mainly germany, .. now what if it realy starts picking up fast ( as it goes in the airline business, new companies etc.. ) and experienced Cpts leave for bigger jobs, experienced Fos move left, but not enough to fill the gaps and airliners start looking for Fos with quite some hours (so not newly ones with 200h) which they could shift left fast.
Nobody can say today how it will be tomorrow, only guarantee is that if you have no lisence, you have no chance!

[Madder]

What if.... etc. this post screams out: "Im naive".:ugh: Its ok to be positive, but come on. Your chain of events is just not going to happen. But let me ask you a question I tried asking in other treads without having any replies: Why should things pick up / get better?

[ToneTheWone]

Madder you ask a very good question about why things should get better. Maybe the reason you haven't got a reply is because few people under 30 have got any experience of what a recession is like. Here in the UK they've lived all of their working lives through times of plenty, with easy access to credit.

If I may give you a bit of a history lesson of the UK since the second world war. In the 1950s to the 1970s we had a massive manufacuring base that provided income from exports and almost full employment. Come the 1980s much of our manufacturing was closed down, but we had North Sea oil to rely on. After that we did have a ressession,but cheap credit funded the massive boom we've just experienced. This boom has now come to an abrupt end and has to be paid for, but with what? For things to get better, not have we got to pay our debts, we've got to find something to fuel the the recovery. And I can't think of anything that's going to provide a nation of 60 million with the standard of living it's got accustomed to and believe it deserves!

Bust has always followed boom, but there is no law to say that boom has to follow bust. Politicians drive me mad when they talk about the recovery but fail to say where it's coming from.

There will always be a need for pilots and jobs to be had, but for anybody expecting things to get back to how they were a few years ago, you may be very dissapointed.

Sorry to be all doom and gloom but you have to take a step back and look at the facts and have a grasp of history and economics.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I've often been branded as Dr Doom on these forums. Fundamentally I'm cautiously optimistic about the prospects for the UK and the major industrial Western nations. A vast vast world of new customers is opening up around the Globe. Yes they can work bashing together goods in huge factories more cheaply and efficiently than we can. So our factories will close. Luckily the UK got that out of the way early. First to build the factories and mass manufacture - first to close and move on. Fine.

The UK has considerable strengths in the industries of the 21st Century. We can add value to many a good or service without the need of a pair of overalls.

I do struggle though to reconcile now with, say 1992, because back then Ryanair and easyJet were only 4 and 5 years away. I simply, in Europe, cannot see another period of turbocharged growth in pilot jobs like the one we have just experienced. There simply isn't scope for another 450 jet airline in the EU even with the complete modernisation of the Eastern nations.

The goldrush is over. The industry has sucked in a vast swathe of relatively youngish pilots and recruiting in the JAA/EASA states is going to drop right off. Back to normal some might say. But normal is going to feel fairly frugal.


WWW

[Poeli]

I also don't like how the first post is written. But I think it might be an eye opener for many wannabe's.
Getting mommy's and daddy's money is easy, working more than a day just to fly one hour to get my PPL while I study isn't:hmm:

[No Country Members]

I simply, in Europe, cannot see another period of turbocharged growth in pilot jobs like the one we have just experienced.

I agree with you, but you didn't foresee the current one either did you?

Neither did I.

[st nicholas]

I find the new cadets/p2f types boring to fly with because all they talk about are planes.Thats all they know( and thats stretching it a bit ). Generally a dull dull day out. Wish there were more mature interesting types to work with.

P S recession seems to be interesting

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

We are not in an period of turbocharged growth of pilot jobs.

All we have is BA taking on 80, ezy & ryr with pay-to-fly work experience and a few re-hires at Virgin. Flybe will be looking at a dozen or so, Jet2 will want a handful on summer-only and then there will be some recruitment in the middle east but they recruit from a global pool which is still vast and deep.

What we have at present is a return to the traditional airline hiring period actually featuring some airline hiring. Below average, but not zero. It only feels like a lot because of three years of drought..

The turbocharged growth period I was talking about was more the 13 years to 2010 when easyJet and Ryanair added >400 jets which is like a whole British Airways number of new pilot jobs in just 13 years - not 80. It simply isn't going to happen again over the next 13 years. There wouldn't be enough tarmac to park them on at night..

I suspect the next big growth in jobs will lie in Eastern Europe as it develops and modernizes over the next generation.

WWW

[Kash360]

Hey guys,

I was only speaking to a friend of mine who I met through PPrune regarding the industry. I not going to sit here and spiel out a whole load of statistics, but I do see things are improving for our industry even though at a slow pace. I was even amazed to see the BA went back into the red even with what they went through this year.

To the wannabes like myself, please don’t let yourselves down. I can’t promise you that you will definitely get a flying job, but stick at it, keep your courage and strength high. Hope is one of the best things in life we have without it we wouldn’t be able to aspire to anything. This is our journey, remember it and learn of it. And hopefully in the future when we do join the ranks of pilots we will be in a position to help the following generation. I have been on my personal journey for over a year, nothing compared to some.

To all our seniors, we respect your advice and honesty and we are here to learn from you. We have done the books and got the licences but nothing else.

[darkroomsource]

Secondly, the loans that are secured this way are generally restricted to a limit of no more than 60% of the value of the home, including the charge or further charge.

Thirdly, the parents income (as guarantors for the loan) is usually taken into account for affordability purposes in the event that the payments fall to them. This is the usual position if the loan applicant defaults on the loan payments when due.
Guess you haven't been reading the papers or watching the telly.
The whole reason we have this here recession is cuz banks were loaning 80, 90, 95, and even 100% of appraised value, and were not paying attention to incomes AT ALL.

[pudoc]

forget aviation.only the loosers join aviation.The winers do something else like doctors, IT,...(most of my friends who are not pilot, they make money, real money , they make a living, they feed their kid, an dont borrow money to play on jet plane after filing bankruptcy like you do at Oxord of my two ...you are just a bunch of immature spoiled kids, and you get what you merit: NOTHING).

Spot on(!)...if you're life long goal is to be a rich as possible. If you're dream is to be a pilot and you'll do no matter what to get there because you've only got 1 shot at life then you couldn't be more closed minded!

Bankruptcy? When it comes to your dream, no risks only regrets I say!

[blueskythinking]

What a strange bunch of people you are. Why would anyone pay large sums of money or put themselves through such financial hardship to do what is now a mundane and undervalued job. You should be asking yourselves why you want to do the job at all. You seem to have this romantic view of flying an airliner that simply no longer exists among the seasoned professionals that do it. I completed an ATPL and had the choice of a job flying small turboprops or becoming an air traffic controller. Although that job has become a very different one over the twenty years I have done it at no point have any of my colleagues paid for the honour of doing it . You are all bright guys who have choices . Dont waste your time on some romantic image that will never be a reality. Do a job that will earn you the money to fly as a hobby or even work part time in business jets or flying instruction as many of my colleagues do. I am not suggesting ATC as a career as it is going in same direction but was never as glamorous!!

[BoeingDreamer]

Isn't it obvious, "recession" is a troll - Only post he/she has made, and never any response to defend his/hers moronic thought process!

Have no regrets, wish I had started before, but not blaming my own late start on other people better financial power at an earlier age. Good luck to everyone, regardless of background, own money or parents money, we probably all do this craziness because we want it for ourselves.

If on day my daughter says she wants to become a pilot, (only 2 now), I will help her in any way possible, with money etc. if that's what she has decided to do. Any decent parent will help their child, to get the best possible start in their life and to try to achieve their dreams and goals.

[Atreyu]

Mr Recession must feel he should have a medal the size of a dustbin lid, given all the hardship he seems to have endured.

Nice ranting though, entertained me for a few minutes reading the mumblings of the deluded.

Atreyu:ok:

[MISSED APCH]

that guy really needs to get a life.
do you think if i wanted to get a bmw, id go and work in McDonalds to save up for years, and when i have the money, the dealer tells me i have to wait for a year for them to stock up. damn that sucks... yet
im not gonna cry over the rich :mad: that did get to realize their dreams.

thats not a winners attitude, its a Loosers attitude. and Loosers shouldn't get their fATPL lol.


hey by the way.
the bank approved my loan, and i didnt even have to put my parents house up for collateral. not i'm paying my arse off, but i fly heavy metal !:D
and pretty much in command of it

[FamousGrouse21]

Hmmm your flying heavy metal you say... funny... I thought only Bruce Dickenson could lay claim to that accolade ! :D:cool:

A pointless post but it made me smile and hopefully some others too !

Grouse

[MISSED APCH]

haha wow thats sweet, i didnt get that bruce dickenson thing you wrote, but i didnt have to search too much, and i got what u meant.
haha wish i knew bout the show earlier,
as we dont get those here in the caribbean.
but youtube is a start.

maybe a good show for "recession" to see and enjoy how to do things !! :)
by the way, the 727 episode is sweet !
with his pocket full of money, he chartered a 727 in FL and flew it around.
something u cant' do when working in a McDonalds:P

[FamousGrouse21]

I haven't seen that many episodes but the ones I have seen are good. Think he even flies fans out to gigs around and about in the US as well at times... life of riley ay!

Anyways good times... we have creeped the topic onto more fruitful and entertaining pastures. However this is not to say that i'm not totally jealous of Bruce dickenson and would like to see him lose all of his money so he can't pay to fly anymore... grrr angry ! *Goes away to think up some troll like post to vent anger*

:E

[Artie Fufkin]

I do struggle though to reconcile now with, say 1992, because back then Ryanair and easyJet were only 4 and 5 years away. I simply, in Europe, cannot see another period of turbocharged growth in pilot jobs like the one we have just experienced. There simply isn't scope for another 450 jet airline in the EU even with the complete modernisation of the Eastern nations.

The goldrush is over. The industry has sucked in a vast swathe of relatively youngish pilots and recruiting in the JAA/EASA states is going to drop right off. Back to normal some might say. But normal is going to feel fairly frugal.

Completely agree. And the delusion isn't just the wannabe's.

I see colleagues heading off to the desert with no command time in their logbooks, firmly convinced that they are off for a 3 year stint, living the playboy dream on the 777, living in "Pussy Towers" in Dubai before returning to the UK to settle down. They all seem convinced that UK airlines in 3 -4 years time will be just dying to put 777 rated FOs on command courses for A320/B737 bucket-and-spade routes.

What happens to recruitment when RYR take delivery of their last -800? How long will it be before we see a 15 or 20 year wait for command at EZY or RYR. What will this do to wannabe recruitment? Non-expanding airlines don't have large recruitment needs...

Recession is an arse btw

[FL999]

Though his post could have been a little more 'diplomatic', recession does have a point. I tried going the easy route couple of years back and circumstances being what they were at the time I came to a brutal stop and had to go back home after spending 6 months in a flying school in a foreign country. I was fresh out of high school and was certain I could get my parents to take a loan and repay it afterwards when id get that job flying shiny jets. Its been a couple of years since that didnt happen and im now working in a 'normal' office earning a decent salary from 0800 to 1700 Mon-Fri. Trust me when I say (as well as the other more mature guys here) that you know nothing of life when you're fresh out of high school still living at your parents'. I thought I knew everything back then but how wrong I was. couple of years in the working world pushing papers and dealing with all sorts of persons and situations and slowly you start to see the bigger picture. If you really love flying (and indeed surviving), go get some degree or diploma in a different field, work for a while ,save those bucks and slowly build your flying experience but never give up. oh and did I mention I cant do that because even though I have a decent salary more than half of it goes into repaying the loan i took to go abroad, study for 6 months and abort. I dont even have a PPL. so dont do the same mistake.

Im gonna be honest though I have no intention of sitting behind a desk pushing papers and staring at a laptop screen all day for the rest of my life. I havent given up on flying just yet. its just going to take more time because of my mistakes.

[Bealzebub]

Guess you haven't been reading the papers or watching the telly.
The whole reason we have this here recession is cuz banks were loaning 80, 90, 95, and even 100% of appraised value, and were not paying attention to incomes AT ALL.

Then you would be guessing wrong!

The failings of 2 years ago and longer, are the reason the criteria are now stricter. It is the situation now that was being discussed. Present tense rather than past tense.

[excrab]

FamousGrouse21,

It's off topic but unlike John Travolta, Bruce Dickensen doesn't need "all his money" to "pay to fly"...He is a properly qualified airline pilot and a 757 captain for Astreaus when he isn't doing his head banging thing.

[FamousGrouse21]

I know excrab... I was being facetious. Nothing more !

Grouse

[PERJ]

Id love to see another post from you, how are you these days?