Momentum is building for industrial action [Archive]

Saturn

12th Oct 2010, 06:52

Looks like the boys and gals of the CX pilot ranks have just about had enough!!!:= I think CX management were betting on divide and conquer with the onshoring, it will fail! Years and years of abuse, lies, terminations and lawsuits. How much more? It is needed!!!:mad: CX pilot's can set the stage not only for ourselves but for others as well!!! Someone needs to break through the gates, "We could build a large wooden badger". I do not know if anyone has been reading about what is going on at JAL to the JAL pilot's but it is typical to try and break the will of a group. CX pilot's need to do this in a big way, full press releases etc...

parabellum

12th Oct 2010, 09:41

Dream on, keep the smoking going..........................:D

routetuner

12th Oct 2010, 12:27

Does anyone here know what Saturn is saying? What is this person smoking?

EXEZY

12th Oct 2010, 12:49

You guys are obviously happy with the status quo.

cxorcist

12th Oct 2010, 17:38

Regardless of what Saturn may or may not be smoking...

The AOA has published yet another compelling argument behind our Pay Claim 2010. Negative comments such as the above serve no productive purpose other than to further convince management that it can continue to drag its feet and disrespect its pilot group. Why would they respect us? Many pilots do not even respect themselves. Just look at so many of your posts...

Self-respecting pilots join the association or its respective TUs. They pay dues and await word from elected leadership with regard to collective action. They express their opinions on union forums rather than in public. Self-respecting pilots respect each other by being part of something greater than themselves. In doing so, they create synergy by which much more is possible than through individual actions alone.

To those of you who do not understand this and participate accordingly, I can only feel sorry for you and all your fellow pilots whom you harm each day. You are worse than selfish; you are stupid and obtuse. Management relies upon your naiveté to achieve their self-serving goals of "cost management" which translates primarily into executive bonuses more than any real cost savings for the company.

To those of you outside the AOA, you really are missing the boat. You hurt all CX pilots and, by default, yourselves with your non-membership. The AOA EXCO and its respective TUs are doing a splendid job on a multi-faceted task with limited resources. If you joined and participated, you would see this. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem!

bm330

12th Oct 2010, 22:55

With the company's desire to divide and conquer, how long will it be before a 'union only' proposal is made? The AOA has been adamant that they would not entertain individual arrangements but with onshoring, the Company must deal with each TU seperately. It's not a big stretch to see the day when then Company has a N.A. deal, Oz deal, HK deal, ....member/non-member deal. With the mud slinging by some of the non-members, the cracks that might show up will not be between A-scale/ B-scale or DEFO/SO/CEP.

Mr. Bloggs

13th Oct 2010, 00:54

Do you actually need someone to tell you to do contract compliance? Therein lies the problem.:ugh:

Everyone should have been doing it for the last 18 or so years.:{

411A

13th Oct 2010, 02:19

Momentum is building for industrial action

All the company would need to do is dust off another 49er plan, and the 'momentum' would fold like a house of cards.

airplaneridesrfun

13th Oct 2010, 04:17

CX would be lucky to keep any pilots. Most would go to other airlines; which was not an easy option during the 49er dispute. The benefit of this is that pilot cost would go down because they wouldn't have any!

411A

13th Oct 2010, 06:11

Most would go to other airlines
That might be entirely possible, however, I expect a good many would stay (especially those nearing retirement), and just think of the stacks of applications that are in the HR files, and the potential pilots just waiting for possible openings.
CX is, by most any measure, still a quite good job, and I expect few would be willing to cash in their chips over some hothead's industrial action ideas.
IE: talk is cheap, actual action a bit more difficult.

routetuner

13th Oct 2010, 12:18

Has the AOA actually done anything to recruit pilots to the union? Being proactive in recruiting new members ( and others that resigned for whatever reason) might be helpful to the cause, sending a message to the company! You talk about dysfunction in the group, well your comments don't help either. if you stop bagging/ intimidating non members and invite them in then you may get a positive result.

boxjockey

13th Oct 2010, 13:20

The union has been actively recruiting for at least 2 solid years now, all you need to do is open your ears! But you knew that already, didn't you? You are just a message board dissenter. You help no one, not even your own colleagues, or yourself.

box

routetuner

13th Oct 2010, 14:52

I am a member- so be careful what you say. And I reiterate to members like you that isolating and bagging does not help- try and be more inviting to these people and you might be surprised. You sound so bitter.

BusyB

13th Oct 2010, 19:26

Routetuner, As a member you must know how much stress and effort has been put on recruiting non-members. I am surprised by your post

"Has the AOA actually done anything to recruit pilots to the union?"

I am also surprised by the excuses given by some non-members, particularly ones with family joining as cadets who don't want to support the AOA getting a decent deal for them:confused:

Captain Dart

13th Oct 2010, 22:09

Jeeze Louise Routetuner, what more does the AOA have to do to convince non-members that it is in their, and everybody's, interest to be part of the AOA? Offer a free plastic Snoopy to every new member?

I've said it once, and I'll say it again: the 'soft soap' approach to non-members has gone on long enough. It's time for:

'no membership no jump seat'

no sharing of AOA updates and newsletters

and a more aggressive approach by members toward these freeloaders :suspect:.

cxorcist

13th Oct 2010, 23:29

... don't forget no sectors for non-member FOs unless their landing recency is about to expire. And no, I don't care if it is an out and back.

Why make this job any more enjoyable for them than absolutely necessary?

Current membership list can found on the www.hkaoa.org (http://www.hkaoa.org) > login to get to home page > useful info > membership list.

boxjockey

14th Oct 2010, 05:41

Routetuner'

If you are a member, then I simply don't understand your comments or your attitude. You know clearly that the company restricts access to new joiners, so the union has targeted those that are already here. They have pushed those of us who are members to take it upon ourselves to get everyone together. Have you done this recently? I have. Anyone I fly with, who is not a member, I try to talk to and encourage them to join us. Could the union do a better job of recruiting the other 25%. Probably, but I also believe that we have to do part of the work ourselves. An inactive and complacent union is no union at all. Everyone needs to do their part!!

box

Flap10

14th Oct 2010, 11:12

Looks like the big bad poodles are out again! Given the track record who are you guys trying to kid??? One NTC from RH warning people about what you are suggesting and you'll be strangling yourselves in panic trying to remove your AoA lanyard.

Are you that gullible to think that whether you have 75% membership or 90% that somehow the union is going to be that much stronger. Talk is cheap, and you can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Before you guys mouth off you best be ready to put your job on the line, but how many of you are ready to do that with big fat mortgages??? Momentum my a##, it's just a bad sequel to an old movie!!!!

cxorcist

14th Oct 2010, 16:10

There are plenty of non-member FOs out there... Just check on the HKAOA website. These pilots are the most troubling because they won't be leaving within 10 years. They continue the non-membership legacy that many of our illustrious captains have started.

cxorcist

14th Oct 2010, 16:59

Does that extra 1% you are saving by not paying union dues feel good?

Whatever it takes to justify your non-membership / non-participation... Right?

Don't worry mate... RH is looking out for you. You don't need a union.

40Deg STH

14th Oct 2010, 17:36

Hey lets all do what the LEP's did and SO"s did, Come to CX City for a meeting with the management..........All 2600 of us, less those flying. And hopefully non AOA members too. Lets grow balls.:ok:
We NEED better terms!! AOA is doing well, lets support them and encourage our non AOA friends too.
Not work to rule, ACTION

DXO

28th Oct 2010, 08:23

Some of us non-members have reason to suspect who exactly is being represented by AOA. When certain AOA functionaries are notorious for ratting on their fellow crew members to management, does this create a spirit of camaraderie? A desire to "pull together"?

Anyone heard of something called a professional standards committee? That is the proper alternative to ratting people out to management. Look it up.

In the meantime, pass the rat poison...:=

boxjockey

28th Oct 2010, 09:05

DXO,

That is all well and good, and I'm not doubting you, but for us AOA members it would be more useful if you would elaborate. Nobody likes a rat, but baseless or empty rumors don't do anyone any good. Let us know what you are talking about.

box

iMad

28th Oct 2010, 09:19

I agree with boxjockey, please do elaborate DXO.

DXO

28th Oct 2010, 10:24

Not baseless...well known fact.

Names not as important as the message...if you seek to rally the troops, make sure this crap does not continue. It should go without saying that this behavior is unacceptable for any pilot, let alone a union leader, but apparently it needs to be said. Perhaps it would be worth getting the word out to the membership?

quadspeed

28th Oct 2010, 10:51

DXO

28th Oct 2010, 16:37

And how do we know you're not management, DXO? Making accusations while hiding behind a wall of anonymity trying to discredit those who volunteer their time to better the conditions of all.

If you've got a legitimate case, then why don't you join and make your objection known? You could even have formally objected to whoever you've got in mind getting elected in the first place.

But maybe posting slander on PPRuNe seemed like a better way to do things. Something the professional standards committee would surely approve of.

Quadspeed:

First of all, I don't require your approval as to how I choose to express myself.

Second, you are obviously quite naive if you can't imagine why I would want to remain anonymous.

Third, sad to say, my post is not slander. The truth hurts. Deal with it.

BusyB

28th Oct 2010, 22:27

DXO,
The truth doesn't hurt if you don't tell us. Front up.:ugh:

DXO

29th Oct 2010, 06:46

Multiple offenders.

You don't need the names to address the issue. It'd be easy enough for the AOA to issue a general cease and desist order to membership. This would be a positive step that would send an encouraging message of unity.

Believe me, ratting out a fellow pilot would be unacceptable/unheard of at any real professional union. I was just trying to explain one reason why some of us don't trust the AOA. The responses so far are not exactly reassuring me...

711

29th Oct 2010, 08:20

wikileaks?

Brown Nose

31st Oct 2010, 01:55

DXO you are making an arse of yourself, no one has a clue what you are talking about. Elaborate, or crawl back to the hole that you came from

Rook

31st Oct 2010, 03:20

I agree. DXO, put up or shut up.

DXO

31st Oct 2010, 04:22

Brown Nose:

Particularly good name for you...

If you can't understand what I'm saying then you really are pathetic.

I'm not going to name names, and I doubt it would make a difference anyway. You are clearly just looking for an excuse to keep your head well buried in the sand.

Oh, and watch your effing manners. Where the hell do you get off telling me to crawl back in my hole? I'm trying to alert your "organization" to an issue you should be concerned with. Instead you choose to attack the messenger in terms that would get you punched in the nose if you spoke that way offline.

Still not impressed...

boxjockey

31st Oct 2010, 04:38

DXO,

You haven't alerted anyone to anything. All you are trying to do is stir the pot, or seek justification for your non-member status. I wish you would become a member and air your concerns in a way that is conductive to improving the organization. If you can't do that, refuse to give any details, and continue to spout empty vitriol, then please go elsewhere. We have too much on our plate to bother with your "ideas".

box

DXO

31st Oct 2010, 04:56

Boxjockey:

Sorry you can't accept my radical "idea" that crew members (especially union members!) should not report each other to management for perceived lapses in performance, attitude, or demeanor.

You're right, you've got much more important things to think about. Like trying to recruit membership in an organization that doesn't think this kind of backstabbing behavior is a serious issue.

This sort of crap would not be accepted by a real union.:=

quadspeed

31st Oct 2010, 05:34

Yes!

Somebody, somewhere. Did something, to someone. The sky is truly falling.

DXO, give the laptop back to your father and let the grown-ups talk. We've got real issues to deal with.

DXO

31st Oct 2010, 08:30

You're a real class act, Halfspeed....

You make my point for me effortlessly.

:D

boxjockey

31st Oct 2010, 08:49

DXO,

I can absolutely understand your ideas. I know that corruption is common in all facets of life, including within a labor union whose sole purpose it to protect and further the careers of it's members. I have been, and still am, a member of a "real union", and can tell you that corruption runs rampant there. Now, if you really want to "help", and not stir the pot, then PM the details of your accusations to one of the numerous AOA members on this board, and let us dig deeper. You can even remain anonymous if you so choose. I don't like corruption any more than the next guy, but you are throwing wild pitches with NOTHING to back you up. Either add some substance, or find something else to talk about. :suspect:

box

BusyB

31st Oct 2010, 09:43

The mere fact that there have been no comms from members with accusations or suggestions of corruption leads me to have serious doubts about these ravings.:confused:

crewsunite

1st Nov 2010, 11:45

Barth.. I agree with most of what u said esp...:

Quote: I also think that the AOA should employ professional negotiators in their dealings with the company. I know that CX will probably refuse to allow this, and at this point there should be a vote for contract compliance.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_online.gif

geh065

1st Nov 2010, 13:38

Most of the LEPs are only really interested in one issue as priority and that is LEP housing. The AOA is interested in membership numbers, and to get the 300+ LEPs to join, they needed to persue the LEP's top priority (or at least try) which was the housing. Whether it was winnable or not, the AOA had to try or face losing 300+ of their members en-masse which would cause even more damage.

iMad

1st Nov 2010, 14:30

Bart, I completely agree that the 25-year housing deal was "in the bag" and for the company to try to wiggle out of it or barter for something in return is simply poor form. The union should get that signed and sealed before any talks can possibly be conducted in good faith.

On the other hand, people have got to realize that LEPs (or more correctly CEPs) WILL be the majority of recruits in CX. For those who still don't know, guys with thousands of hours are joining on a super-short "cadet" course (aka Finesse Course) so yes, the next time you see some SO who has 5000 hours flying Dash-8s around Oz, he's here with no housing coz he's a "cadet". It won't be long before CEPs are the majority in the union. (I can't imagine CEPs not getting any housing by then but I don't want to even imagine what a CEP-majority AOA exco will do to benefit themselves if that is truly the case) Fighting for and protecting housing for the CEPs is the only way we could protect the downfall of the B-scale in the way A-scale has gone down the drain.

AnAmusedReader

2nd Nov 2010, 02:22

Quite right iMad.

The 25 years is here already. When I was coming up to 15 years I went in to the offcie and they agreed there and then that I could continue to 25 years.

The AOA fighting for CEPs is the right thing to do. We're all pilots and should be treated the same. Why can't some of you understand that any group of pilots with less benefits than others only give management a target for the rest of us to go down to.

I think you will find that most of the 300 or so CEP's are in fact AOA members.

Get-a-raise

2nd Nov 2010, 04:33

I've long since given up on AOA, the company always seem to have an upper hand...why is this the case?

Interested_Party

2nd Nov 2010, 06:48

bartholomewrose,

I like your thinking, 25 year housing is definately a win-win for all and certainly relevant for all pilots, and certainly for you. Just a little bit of pork-barrelling but I think as we include a housing allowance for LEP's we should add one for based pilots. Why not, everyone has housing costs, right? I am certain the based pilots would put their rosters at risk by going the CC route to improve your housing.

You obviously weren't here for the last stouch when bad rosters became unbearable when the company invented O days, NB, SB and rostered a trip the day before and the day after any leave.

Get-a-raise

2nd Nov 2010, 09:06

It's hard to have faith in the AOA when they are duped by the company time and again. Unless they are willing to show some real spine...

crewsunite

2nd Nov 2010, 13:35

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4 driver

3rd Nov 2010, 22:28

WE are the AOA.
The association is not some foreign entity. It is what we make it.
When people "give up" on the AOA/resign etc.....it only makes us weaker.
It amazes me that these people are the ones who complain about how ineffective we are.
It's not rocket science people.
If you want an effective association; get involved.
We are somewhat limited by labour laws in HK but giving up and quitting doesn't help anyone. Especially yourselves.

Captain Dart

4th Nov 2010, 00:45

Fear not, 4 driver, who would bother posting anti-AOA posts here apart from management stooges, sciolists*, trolls and the odd non-member with a guilty conscience.

I've been in the company a long time and there is a very encouraging groundswell out there unlike what I have seen in the past. The reported resignations, if true, will also get the company's attention.

Get-a-raise

4th Nov 2010, 07:29

Well I'm just pointing to the truth. Some people don't like the truth. I see things as it is rather then put my head in the sand and pretend everything is fine and dandy. Frankly, the AOA hasn't been inspiring to say the least. Bartholomewrose and crewsunite is right, I am disappointed as a member. You can only get 100% committed membership if you have competent leadership to lead.

If you don't criticize and point to it's shortcomings, then it's not going to improve is it? If you want 100% committed membership, then let's see some real action.

cxorcist

4th Nov 2010, 07:40

Get-a-raise,

It seems we get to vote on "some real action" this week heh..

Keep in mind that just because we are not hearing anything does not mean nothing is happening.

Cxorcist

Frogman1484

5th Nov 2010, 01:30

So let's see...I cannot do a swap because our roster is too tight. There is nothing worthwhile requesting as all my flight are 12 hour duties through the night. I'm already only getting 10 G per month so 9 will make no difference. I have no chance of getting on a flight on my few days off because the loads are so high and because I'm so fatigued from my wonderful roster. Now to add salt to injury the HKD is going to sh1t and I cannot afford to go anywhere!

What can you take away from me that you already have Richard?
I'm voting for CC now!

pasa001

5th Nov 2010, 12:56

one for me toooo!!

broadband circuit

6th Nov 2010, 01:43

For those planning to vote YES on option 1, make sure that you vote YES on option 2 as well.

Ex Douglas Driver

6th Nov 2010, 03:17

Think carefully about voting yes to both, because motion 2 can only succeed if motion 1 fails e.g. we can't have it both ways!

gjanf

8th Nov 2010, 03:37

Get-a-raise: "It's hard to have faith in the AOA when they are duped by the company time and again. Unless they are willing to show some real spine..."

For the AOA to show some real spine, they need the membership to support them and show it. If you are not happy with what is going on, stand for GC membership yourself next year and sort out all the problems from there. I, for one, am grateful for the time and effort the guys put in on our behalf for little thanks but plenty of complaints.

Ironically, the loudest complainers are the non-members; to them, I say, "Join your union NOW and help show solidarity against the shameful way that Management continually behaves. Right now, your non-membership means that you are sitting on the same side of the table next to Management against your fellow pilots every time Cx meets with the Union representatives. Stop being selfish and help all your colleagues and yourselves instead of Management."

Rant over.

Scoreboard

8th Nov 2010, 08:54

Some info.

been thru the labor tribunal here in HK.....and was speaking to a solictor (who has been dealing with labor disputes in HK for now 16 years) that gave us guidance on matters pertaining to it. She was laughing about CX history with me but she made a very pointed statement at one point.

"with the labor tribunal now in place in HK you will never see a 49'er saga ever again."

Throw into the mix that cx has already lost its case(on appeal yes but basically a lost cause coming from the mouth of one of swire's close to the legal action).

So those dreading another star chamber.....don't quake in your boots it ain't happening.

As for work to rule.....all you dumbies should have been doing it for years....I still find gutless wonders who answer their crew direct or answer their phone.
But hey for the first time in over 3 years I am actually starting to get called on my days off to help crew control. Nice work by our new DFO mentioning he will go back to punitive rostering....again....moronic. Punitive rostering worked in the past cause it was more effective to work us into over time...aka we were cheaper per hour after we hit overtime. I say bring the punitive crap on....see how good flight ops budget will be after we eat up all that reserve, and we all go past 95 hours per month....

Why doesn't everyone realise that the requirement for sick note from doctor has gone from 1 day to 3 days out to 5 or more days off before you need one? Wasn't us....it was their insurance premiums going up. They demanded a sick note due industrial action when we all went sick.....but it couldn't be sustained....and as soon as we have come off the pedal these last 7 or so years they could reduce their premiums again by not demanding our doctor attendance. They bring it on again and it just hurts them in a round about way.

bobrun

8th Nov 2010, 16:44

Why doesn't everyone realise that the requirement for sick note from doctor has gone from 1 day to 3 days out to 5 or more days off before you need one?

It's actually only required for more than 7 days!

I'm with you with punitive rostering. They are already short of crew and we all know that avoiding overtime is a priority for them. What are they going to do? Put us on reserve with minimum days off, but not call anyone to avoid overtime? Really?