View Full Version : Jetstar Singapore Contract

7th Oct 2010, 05:48
Latest word on the street is training supposed to commence in Nov and Jet* finally sends out contracts to sign.

Only problem is the cheap [email protected] renegged on a little matter of a 10% yearly bonus:mad:

Said bonus now comes with an extra clause "payment at the Companys discretion".:ugh:

Out of the 20 interested only 1 has signed:D

Artificial Horizon
7th Oct 2010, 06:01
What amazes me is that 20 people signed up to it in the first place!!:ugh:

7th Oct 2010, 06:42
"payment at the Companys discretion" = Not paid by J* if they can think of any reason.......

7th Oct 2010, 07:12
As with most rumours, there is an element of truth to this one, but apparently not the whole story.

The initial contract did state at company discretion - this was apparently due to it being treated as a "bonus payment" rather than as a relocation allowance by the contracts author.

After it was pointed out, the contract was immediately revised and the 10% is now as per the EOI - ie a relocation allowance - guaranteed - no discretion.

From what i've heard, the only other changes between the EOI and the contract are an increase in guaranteed minimums.

7th Oct 2010, 10:07
What a great way to undermine all of the effort gone into developing pilot unity of late. Enjoy Singapore!!!

Packs on
7th Oct 2010, 11:10
I hope the blokes accepting this offer have thought long and hard. I havent seen anger amongst the troops like this EVER. Interesting to note they did not get one person for the 23 F/O postions.Rumour has is the company was willing to offer up to 30 percent more if there were no takers first time around. When will these people learn.:ugh:

7th Oct 2010, 11:27
Unity at Jetstar, like that will ever happen!!!!
From what I hear, its more like 50 guys, not 20. (They did get f/o's applying, but are still short on the numbers required)

7th Oct 2010, 14:34
Its makes you wonder alright...

I bet the same guys that take the SIN offer fully expect thier EBA and commands in the original bases to exist when they want to come back home.

Well, news for you fellas... you sure are doing your best to undermine your own future back in Aussie.

Not to mention everybody elses...:yuk:

Its not even a payrise FFS :=

7th Oct 2010, 14:46
Hope the suckers, sorry, volunteers, have done their homework on living in SIN, not just looked at the $$$ and the tax rate.
In fact, with the cost of housing alone and the exchange rate, I trust you are getting around 20% more than Oz.

BTW, congrats on driving the T&Cs in Australia further down, oh, thats right, it's not in Australia :hmm:

8th Oct 2010, 00:32
But what are current Jetstar pilots doing about it- or anything?

What is your multi-pronged industrial strategy? Launching attacks by educating or deterring potential employees via pprune has merit. As long as you are doing something else concrete.

Just looks to me as Jetstar pilots ( and everyone else in OZ bar QF ) have lowered the bar happily, then get shirty when someone else does similar.

Get some balls.....

8th Oct 2010, 01:13
Very hard to do anything about it when the same workmates helped vote up a crap EBA. IR laws here, dont give much scope before the bargaining period either Gnadenburg.

As someone else has said elsewhere. there will be no unity until everyone puts their own self interest second.

8th Oct 2010, 01:33
wait till the boys see the next EBA theyll wish they had gone to SIN on A330.
Its unwinnable losers if you dont like it leave , simple solution really..:D

Muff Hunter
8th Oct 2010, 01:50

Can you inform everyone as to how many cancelled flighs there was in september and what was the OTP like?

I'll answer it for you..OTP around 30% and a sh#t load of cancelled flights. (30 in 3 days at one stage) And we were not even in a protected barganing period!!!!!!!! (it's only 20 months away)

If JQ want to throw sh#t in everyones face when we are in a barganing period the airline will be brought to its knees!! So i suggest you climb back into the box in 222 Bourke were you came form and whilst you are doing it you can let the management F#$ckwits that share a Grange with every friday know that if they want to continue to piss on us they will get it back in their face tenfold!!!!

8th Oct 2010, 06:20
Mates there tell me that living in Singapore is pretty cruisy, but...

If you are an Aussie and expect to lead an Aussie standard of living in Singapore, it will cost pretty much what it costs you in, say, a decent part of Sydney. So if you live in Singapore and get paid much lower than Aus rates, you may well not be ahead by making the move.

Some things are cheap and the tax rate's pretty good, but other things (like a decent place to live and cars) are more expensive. Your weekly groceries are about the same. And a pint of a drinkable beer, at most pub-type places, will set you back easily SGD 11-14.

Local food is cheap and there are people who never eat at home, but strangely, they tend to end up carrying a stone or two more than when they arrived.

And make sure you get health cover, as a non-PR or citizen, you're on your own. Same with your pension.

As for any sort of industrial laws if things don't go your way...

8th Oct 2010, 08:51
Hi guys,
I would urge you all to consider the deal on the table with Jetstar. The President of AIPA is behind Jetstar Pilots in their efforts to get Qantas salaries. This may happen one day.....not sure when. But in the mean time try not to signup for below par wages and conditions.
Maybe one day AIPA big boss will be a Jetstar Captain.....

Jethro Gibbs
8th Oct 2010, 09:00
Jetstar Pilots in their efforts to get Qantas salaries.
You have it wrong way round they want qantas pilots to get paid jetstar pay:ok:

8th Oct 2010, 09:24
Yep, the chickens have certainly come home to roost WRT this mob. The absolute hypocrisy of these guys to now try to have the moral high ground is nothing short of bewildering.
I just wish this outfit would go away. I am sick and tired of having these individuals undermine mine and my colleagues' livelihoods.

9th Oct 2010, 15:30
Jetstar pilots complaining about the the lowering of their terms and conditions by pilots, who,in the hope of bettering their futures, accept contracts in SIN. The very thing the Jetstar pilots commenced doing to airline conditions in Australia in 2004, and have been doing since, when they accepted employment contracts with Jetstar. Stop the self pity and take a reality check. Be grateful you live at home.

Kangaroo Court
9th Oct 2010, 22:29
It started well before then at Impulse. These pay-for-training types had no other qualification than the ability to sell out the entire industry.

They get no sympathy.

10th Oct 2010, 00:41
Do what the QF pilots did to CX pilots. Dob them into the ATO.

Nasty. But not as nasty as some of the posts here....

No low cost pilot could afford to buy a house in Singapore to meet non-residency requirements whilst their families sponge of the rest of the law abiding, tax paying low cost pilots in Oz.

From today's Age.
Residency questions confuse investors

Max Newnham

August 17, 2010

Whether someone is classed as an Australian resident for tax purposes has a major effect on what they pay tax on and at what rate. By the flood of questions sent in from readers both here and overseas the matter of residency causes many problems. Because of the complexities in this area, and because every case is judged on its own facts, professional advice should be sought to ensure you get the right answers.

Q. I have a three year contract in Doha. I rent an apartment there but still have a house in Kiama which my children live in. I receive no income from this. I pay no income tax on my wages in Doha and transfer money into my bank account to pay the mortgage in Australia. It is also an offset account for the loan that we pay bills out of. My accountant advised that I should be classified as a non-resident as I have a three year contract and rent an apartment in Doha. My wife has taken leave without pay and currently does not work in Doha. Do you think I am a non-resident for tax purposes?

A. The question of Australian tax residency can in some cases be very easy, while in other cases it can be extremely hard. At the heart of deciding tax residency is the intention of the taxpayer. Where this cannot be established clearly the Australian Taxation Office applies various tests to work out what a taxpayer’s real intention is.

One of the tests used is to establish where the taxpayer normally resides. The ATO on its web site gives the Shorter Oxford Dictionary definition of resides as, “to dwell permanently, or for a considerable time, to have one’s settled or usual abode, to live in particular place”.

The ATO in deciding where someone normally resides takes account of where a person’s family, business and employment ties are, and where they organise their financial affairs. Also taken into account is where their permanent place of abode is. In other words where their residence is and where their family sleeps at night.

In your case as you have retained your home in Australia, you have not purchased a new home in Doha and are only renting, your wife has not resigned her employment but only taken leave without pay, you have a finite three year contract that is not a permanent placement, and you maintain a bank account in Australia that you pay bills out of, you would more than likely be classed as an Australian resident for tax purposes by the ATO.

Clockwork Doll
10th Oct 2010, 06:07
Hope the suckers, sorry, volunteers, have done their homework on living in SIN, not just looked at the $$$ and the tax rate.
In fact, with the cost of housing alone and the exchange rate, I trust you are getting around 20% more than Oz.

How about starting off by doing your own research instead of listening to the chinese whispers that were clearly started by some moron and have been repeated by every other moron in the company. Fact is the only ones that have researched it properly are the ones who are going. They'll be there - and happy - while the rest of your are shipped off to Cairns. Enjoy you brainless little morons!! :D

404 Titan
10th Oct 2010, 06:33
Clockwork Doll
Fact is the only ones that have researched it properly are the ones who are going.
If that is the case I hope they have asked the company for a clause in their contracts indemnifying them against possible double taxation? As they will be working for an Australian company that has a base in Singapore, the ATO will probably rule that the foreign contract is for a finite period of time and therefore are Australian residents for tax purposes. I wouldn’t like paying double taxation on an inferior LCC salary and trying to live in Singapore.

10th Oct 2010, 07:22

404 Titan
10th Oct 2010, 08:01

Is that YYYYAAAAAAWWWNNNNN because you don’t care or you think I am talking BS? As a non resident pilot who also happens to be an accountant I am very well conversed with Australian taxation law, especially when it comes to the determination by the ATO of residency status. You can yawn all you like but the reality is that any J* pilot who accepts this contract to go to Singapore will find it very difficult to prove their intention was to stay their indefinitely. Fact.

Frank Burden
10th Oct 2010, 08:02
I understand that the ATO has double tax exemption agreements with most countries where Australians find themselves. I am sure that there would be one for Singapore. Do your homework!!

10th Oct 2010, 08:07
Thats right, but it doesn't stop the ATO charging you the difference between the SIN rate and the Aust rate.

404 Titan
10th Oct 2010, 08:22
Frank Burden

I think you need to do your homework sunshine. I am very well aware Australia has a tax treaty with Singapore but that doesn’t stop the ATO taxing you at appropriate Australian tax rates if they determine you to be an Australian resident for tax purposes and then giving you a credit for the tax paid in Singapore after you have paid the full Australian tax. These contracts and the pay scales that J* have offered are based on not paying Australian tax. That assumption in my opinion as an accountant is a false one which may end up costing those that go up there dearly.

Angle of Attack
10th Oct 2010, 08:45
Wot 404 Titan said,

I agree with Titans comments totally, I have been through the system checking out a SIN base and I can assure you that you get double hit!
simple really! Anyone taking it risks all!

10th Oct 2010, 09:36
How do you demonstrate an indefinite commitment to gain non tax residency status when you've only signed a fixed term contract, all the while on LWOP from your Aussie job?

10th Oct 2010, 10:32
You answered your own question "whilst on LWOP from your Aussie job"

You're on leave, therefore you intend to go back. Resign and it might be different....


10th Oct 2010, 11:06
Crikey Titan, I sure hope anyone so narcisticly ambitious, trusting of Jetstar management, having absolutely no concept of (or simply doesn't care!) the way a desperate management are trying to screw their pilots, or have been living in a cave while all this debate goes on, are reading your's and Gnadenburg's words.

Great post 'Doll. Resorting to personal attacks on only your 4th outing. You're either management, or one of the above described. If you are heading to Singapore, Please, please don't take Titan's sage advice. Enjoy your poverty! :ok:

10th Oct 2010, 11:12
I believe that this may be a "full time position" with a Singaporean based company. (Rather than a "fixed term" contract). Thus showing intent to live away from Australia. However those on LWOP from JQ may still have trouble with the "intent" argument!:ouch:

10th Oct 2010, 11:41
Do a bit of research and discover the wondrous world of Conor McKathy....Ryanair fame,architect of the tax minimisation program in Europe...pilots do not have a base and they are in countries 10 days at a time and their rosters are structured that they do not pay tax anywhere. Conor has helped AirAsiaX and Jetstar and went to college with Alan Joyce....Wake up and smell the roses..guys. This is sophisticated stuff that has not been thought up overnight. The difference is Ryanair pilots are paid a decent salary...as opposed to Jetstar. Need I say more..sit tight and be united and you will be rewarded, rush in and you live with what you get.:eek:

10th Oct 2010, 12:08
Doesn't personally affect me, but nevertheless, out of curiosity, it took about 30 seconds to complete the ATO Residency Determination Calculator.

Tax Tools - (http://calculators.ato.gov.au/scripts/axos/axos.asp?)

Determination of residency status – leaving Australia
Residency status
Version 2.0.0

You are not an Australian resident for taxation purposes following your departure from Australia.

You provided the following information

Are you under 16 years of age? No
Are you or your spouse an eligible employee in the CSS or a member of the PSS? No
Are/were you an Australian resident for tax purposes immediately before leaving Australia? Yes
Are you a temporary resident leaving Australia to live in another country (or countries)? No
Are you an Australian resident who is emigrating to live permanently in another country? No
Where were you born? Australia
What do you consider to be your home country? Australia
Will you spend the majority of your time based in any one place while overseas? Yes
How long will you be based in that place while outside Australia? 2 to 5 years
What accommodation will you occupy most of the time that you are in this place? Rented dwelling house, flat, etc
Are you a dependent child? No
Are you travelling with or joining family members (e.g. spouse, dependent children) overseas? All family members
Do you plan to return to Australia more than four times every year? Yes
What are your plans for your Australian home? Sell ASAP / Already sold
How often do you expect to visit Australia while you are based overseas? At least every 3 months

You should keep a copy of this decision for your taxation records.

10th Oct 2010, 12:23

Before you get too smug, I suggest you try doing the assessment again and answer every question identically EXCEPT for this question:

What are your plans for your Australian home?

Answer "rent out"

You'll find that you're an Australian resident for taxation purposes! Or are you seriously suggesting that to work for this mob in Singapore you should first sell your home in Oz... :hmm:


10th Oct 2010, 12:46
Or are you seriously suggesting that to work for this mob in Singapore you should first sell your home in Oz

Yes, unless you want to pay Australian Tax. You will have to liquidate all your assets, move to Singapore and tell the ATO you never intend coming back. If you do happen to return to Australia, that was never your intent.

404 Titan
10th Oct 2010, 13:37

All the ATO calculators are guides only. They are not a ruling and anyone thinking they can use one as such will be crucified by the ATO’s lawyers in any court. It clearly states this on the ATO web sight and there is also precedent in the courts.


And that is why the calculators can lead you astray. In most instances Australian citizens living abroad can own property in Australia and rent it out and still be classed as non residents for tax purposes. You can even, in most cases, keep it vacant if you like and use it as a holiday home.


That type of scheme is asking for trouble in my opinion and it certainly wouldn’t be viable out of Singapore with the laws there and J*’s schedule. The ATO would probably consider you an Australian resident for tax purposes simply on the grounds that you aren't a resident anywhere else so therefore you are a resident here. Catch 22.


Doesn’t make any difference if it is permanent or fixed term, working for an Australian company or Singaporean, if the said pilots are on LWOP from J* Aus, they show intent to return. The only way to fix that is to resign from the Australian company without the prospect to return in seniority. Also will any promotion require them to return to Australia? Is there one or two seniority lists? Is there the prospect of Australian pilots who were employed directly onto the Singapore base transferring to Australia without resigning first?

10th Oct 2010, 22:03
Kids, to resolve the tax issue, you need Jetstar to ask the ATO for a private tax ruling that covers all of the commonest family arrangement combinations you guys would contemplate.

Jetstar would have to supply the ATO with details of the contracts, working conditions, Jetstars intent, terms and conditions, future contracts, etc. The ATO will then crunch through all that detail and issue a binding private ruling that specifies exactly how pilots accepting a Jetstar contract will be treated by the ATO.

The ruling is binding on the ATO. Jetstar should provide each of you with a copy of the ruling for you to satisfy yourself about your tax status.

Be aware that once Jetstar has done that, neither Jetstar nor you personally can make any variation to your contract or terms and conditions without going back to the ATO and ensuring that the private ruling still applies.

...This needs to be a condition of your contract: "Jetstar will not do anything that will prejudice the validity of the ATO private ruling and will indemnify any pilot whose status for Australian taxation purposes by any action of Jetstar or changes to Australian taxation law or determinations of tax status in Australian courts. "

P.S. Even the simplest and apparently inconsequential changes to a contract or stipulated behaviour, terms and conditions can and will void a private ATO ruling.

If Jetstar can't or won't get you a private ATO ruling, then don't go.

My guess would be that the ATO will tell Jetstar to go **** themselves and that you will be paying full Australian tax. Even if there is a loophole, be aware that the ATO will close it through legislation if they believe they are losing too much money.

...Seen it all done.

Metro man
11th Oct 2010, 00:35
Have a look at this part Examples of residents and non-residents (http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36280.htm)

Basically try to be Bronwyn. Obviously easier if you're single, but if you:
1. Stay away for an extended period, +3 years seems to be satisfactory.
2. Establish a home overseas with your family.
3. Don't have accommodation available in Australia.
4. Don't have a car registered in your name.
5. Cut as many ties as possible. eg club memberships, store accounts etc

Then you should qualify as a non resident.

However if you:
1. Spend significant time in Australia.
2. Maintain a home there.
3. Have a wife/children living and working or attending school in Australia.
4. Conduct your life in a similar manner to someone living there permanently, running a business or serving on a committee for example.

Then you will probably get caught in the tax net. Just staying out of the country for more than 180 days each year won't cut it anymore, you need to make a clean break and ESTABLISH your life overseas for an extended period. This doesn't mean you can't go back ever again. Definately worth an hour with a good accountant BEFORE you leave.

BTW Canadians need to surrender their driving licence and any shop accounts to qualify as non residents of their country. I wouldn't be surprised if the ATO tighten up to a similar extent in future. Salami tactics, slice by slice. Rather than have an out cry if they announce tax on expats, they will simply make the rules progresively more restrictive to achieve the same result.:*

11th Oct 2010, 01:00
Initially there will be a few. As the realities of expatriate life set in, based around a low Jetstar wage, there will be more. Pilots will sponge of the Australian taxpayer by basing their families at home in Australia.

I think this whole Jetstar Singapore basing could open up the pandoras box of large numbers of Australian pilots, who commute with foreign airlines and evade Australian tax by claiming non-residency.

Personally I think it stinks. Pilots get to use Australian taxpayers to subsidize a poor contract that is at the detriment to the profession- helping the race to the bottom.

Screw them. Highlight this to the ATO through your union.

BTW. Watch pilots who think they are smarter than the system, trying all sorts of hair brained tax evading concepts. Claiming separation from the wife ( risking a fraudulent jail term ) etc...

It gets ugliest when the ATO garnishes the pilot's wage.

11th Oct 2010, 01:44

Nice in theory. But Jetstar wont be doing anything of the sort. Because they dont have to. They make it clear that tax affairs are the pilots responsibility, i.e. you are on your own.

11th Oct 2010, 02:05
Get some tax advice from Paul Hogan.

Metro man
11th Oct 2010, 04:34
This would be worth looking at as well
IRAS: Individuals (For Foreigners) (http://www.iras.gov.sg/irasHome/page01.aspx?id=88)

If you're still classed as an Australian resident prehaps you would qualify for deductions from the ATO on accommodaton in Singapore and travel costs ? Definately ask an accountant for advice, it may qualify as a work related expense.

Unfortunately it looks like a pilot moving from Australia to Singapore to work for Jetstar, unless willing to establish himself and his family there on a medium to long term basis and drastically reduce ties with Australia, is going to be up for Aussie income tax.

This probably renders the present package unviable for most pilots unless substantial additions are made to cover the increased costs of a short term relocation if taking the family, or the expense and inconvenience of commuting and running two homes.

11th Oct 2010, 05:54
As indicated by earlier posts - and Paul Hogan's predicament - tax residency can be a complex issue. Absolute certainty can only be obtained by a private ruling from the ATO. If advice is needed however, I would suggest that pilots should seek it from say one of 'Big 4' accounting firms (or similar specialists) who deal with these issues routinely. They have technical advisors that live and breathe tax residency. I would expect a good employer to seek and pay for such advice on behalf of a group of employees or potential expats....:rolleyes:

Although some of the posts have indicated that a whole family needs to relocate on a long term basis to qualify, that is not necessarily the case. The location of your family is only one factor. The way in which a person organises their domestic and economic affairs as part of their lives is a broader, more influential factor. In one private ruling to a pilot a couple of years ago, the ATO noted that his family lived in Australia whilst he was stationed overseas for three years. The ATO has a rule of thumb that two years is the minimum period of time to denote residency of an individual. Maintaining a place of residence in Australia is not the same as actually residing there. A person may have residences in many countries. Notwithstanding continuing ties to Australia, and several visits back to Australia each month, because the pilot's employment ties were in another country and that place was where he carried out the ordinary course of his life, the ATO held that he was considered to be a resident of that place for tax purposes.

As with any private ruling, slighty different facts may well alter the ATO view as they are known to be very fickle....:ugh: Hence the need to seek advice specific to your own circumstances.

Baxter Dewall
11th Oct 2010, 09:04
Teal said,

I would expect a good employer to seek and pay for such advice on behalf of a group of employees or potential expats....

Quite correct Teal, A GOOD EMPLOYER.

This has no relevance here.:yuk:


11th Oct 2010, 12:16
Maybe wait to see how many capts are still there in six months.

Supply and demand.

11th Oct 2010, 16:51
Without a private ruling, don't go.

A Comfy Chair
11th Oct 2010, 17:58
It was looked at by a number of people a few years ago when QF were looking to base S/O's in Singapore.

The whole thing ended up falling apart for many reasons, however one thing that did come out of it (from memory) was that by owning any property in AUS you were considered resident of AUS for tax.

Made the whole thing financially unviable for crew. And that was on a QF wage.

404 Titan
11th Oct 2010, 23:59
A Comfy Chair

Actually if you dig a little deeper you will find that the ATO didn’t consider the SIN S/O basing an indefinite one because the said S/O’s would have to return to Australia for a promotion. The fact that many S/O’s may have owned property in Australia just reinforced in the ATO’s mind that any S/O taking a SIN base was only there for a finite period of time, therefore defining them as residents of Australia for tax purposes.

12th Oct 2010, 05:23
Who has seen the Singapore contracts?

* Jetstar NZ FO $65 - 70K

* Jetstar Oz FO $110-120K

* Jetstar Singa FO ???????????

I suspect they might be among the worst paid A330 pilots around.

12th Oct 2010, 06:38
Simply owning property in Aust does not mean you have to pay Aust tax!!! I know many non residents who currently own property in Aust , and this does not mean they are automatically liable for oz tax. I suggest many of the posters on here really have no idea what they are talking about. I agree with Teal, if you are looking at this, or any other offshore gig, get some good tax/legal advice before going !!!!

12th Oct 2010, 07:43
Who do you trust enough to transfer assets into their name?
wife ,mum,dad or brother,sister.
Sunfish has nailed it.....no ruling...no go....unless of course you dont care about wages and conditions,have no Oz assets and have a Singaporean girlfiend who is very good at something.
Oh to be 25 with no assets and too much testosterone

Shot Nancy
12th Oct 2010, 08:22
One also needs to consider the licensing requirements of the Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore (CAAS).
I heard that the initial lot who upgraded there had to take a months leave without pay to prepare for the CAAS "assessment" exam and not all passed.

Mstr Caution
12th Oct 2010, 08:30
Wasn't one of the stumbling blocks (QF basing) the efficiencies of the rostering system.

One of the major efficencies was to maximise the utilisation of the crew based in Singapore.

Management wanted to pre-allocate rosters (no bidding) & AIPA wouldn't budge on seniority style bidding for rosters & days off.

Seems to me, they couldn't achieve it in mainline, so are attempting the same with J*.

12th Oct 2010, 08:48
Articles re some changes in the 2009 Budget:

Taxation of Expatriate "Expat" Foreign Income | My Tax Zone - TAX BLOG (http://blog.mytaxzone.com.au/2010/02/taxation-of-expatriate-expat-foreign.html)

Tax fears could spur an exodus of exodus | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/budget/executive-exodus-feared/story-e6frgd6o-1225711778495)

It may differ in Australia, but I think there was a case in the UK involving a British pilot working for a European carrier, where I think it was ruled that each day when he landed in the UK, even though he remained airside, he was deemed to be in the UK for the purposes of caluculating his tax residence. (IIRC that case also turned on him having property and immediate family in the UK).

12th Oct 2010, 08:52

can anyone here please tell me the interview process/simcheck?

i have interview this month.

thanks in advance

ps, i know its not the right place to ask this question but i tried to start a thread which for some reason got shut down. trying all avenues!

12th Oct 2010, 09:13
Mstr Caution. I think that QF reckoned that the base only became viable if the S/O divisor of those based there was 180. AIPA said 'no' to that divisor. Given the way the patterns would have worked out, this meant that lines could only be constructed to less than 160... again an issue for QF. Therefore it just wouldn't 'fit'.

As I remember it anyway.

catthree, the reason your post keeps getting deleted is that there is probably a thread a week asking the same question. Tried a search on the D&G 'questions' forum?

12th Oct 2010, 09:19
I wonder what "WorkChoices is Dead, Buried, Cemated" Abbott's comments on this Australian Business innovation would be ?????

Take this concept to the next level, when numberous business' and Industries start basing workers offshore. Less cost to the business, better profits, bigger executive bonus'.
What will the Australian Government do when they realise the extent of the collapse of the Taxation income base as a result of this Australian Business innovation to cut costs ?????

I also seem to recall that JetStar is a part of the Qantas Group is it not?
Isn't there an Act of Parliment that was supposed to prevent "Qantas " offshoring it's identity just as JetStar management are now proposing to do?

"All Day, Every Day, Low Pay"
"JetStar's price beat guarantee-,
we promise to undercut any pay offer by 10%

12th Oct 2010, 11:01
Q sale Act prescribes entity ownership limits - JQ as a subsiduary can do just about anything it wants.

Where the really big big black (orange) hole is that QF can flex its IASC route approvals to JQ or 'another majority owned subsiduary.

The Senate Inquiry TOR's are quite wide and I would hope that those making submissions would also cover off on the bureaucratic mechanisms that have assisted the likes of JQ to sacrafice the homeland for a few short term dollars.

Greed is not always good - sometimes it makes you burp


12th Oct 2010, 11:28
I'm sure you're right Airtags, but???????

Q sale Act prescribes entity ownership limits - JQ as a subsiduary can do just about anything it wants

Qantas means Qantas Airways Limited, as the company exists
from time to time (even if its name is later changed).
Qantas subsidiary means a body corporate that is a subsidiary of

For the purposes of this Act, the question whether a body
corporate is a subsidiary of another body corporate is to be
determined in the same manner as that question is determined
under the Corporations Act 2001.


What is a subsidiary
A body corporate (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s1276.html#body_corporate) (in this section called the first body (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#body)) is a subsidiary of another body corporate (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s1276.html#body_corporate) if, and only if:
(a) the other body (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#body):
(i) controls (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#control) the composition of the first body (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#body)'s board (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#board); or
(ii) is in a position to cast, or control (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#control) the casting of, more than one‑half of the maximum number of votes that might be cast at a general meeting of the first body (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#body); or
(iii) holds (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#hold) more than one‑half of the issued (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#issue) share capital of the first body (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#body) (excluding any part of that issued (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#issue) share capital that carries no right (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s1371.html#right) to participate beyond a specified amount (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#amount) in a distribution of either profits or capital); or
(b) the first body (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#body) is a subsidiary of a subsidiary of the other body (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#body).

(1) For the purposes of this Act, an entity (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#entity)controls (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#control) a second entity (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#entity) if the first entity (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#entity) has the capacity to determine the outcome of decisions (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s1317a.html#decision) about the second entity (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#entity)'s financial and operating policies.
(2) In determining whether the first entity (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#entity) has this capacity:
(a) the practical influence the first entity (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#entity) can exert (rather than the rights (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s1371.html#right) it can enforce (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#enforce)) is the issue (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#issue) to be considered; and
(b) any practice or pattern of behaviour affecting the second entity (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#entity)'s financial or operating policies is to be taken into account (even if it involves a breach of an agreement (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s9.html#agreement) or a breach of trust).

12th Oct 2010, 12:26
Fact is that the industry has been sliding downwards on the rollercoaster of safety for the best part of 10 years. Everybody knows it, and those who disagree are living with Joyce in 'cuckoo land'. The senate inquiry should be seen as just the start of many measures that need to be taken in order to repair the industry, not be seen as the be all and end all.
If the inquiry and the subsequent dirt that is unravelled from it (oh yes, there is plenty of that just bursting to come out) is not adressed then I stand by my words that the next inquiry will be into 'a smoking hole containing 177 charred or fragmented corpses'.
It will be interesting to see how our beloved Pollies handle that ??

12th Oct 2010, 12:31
I think a few of you are on the wrong track with the Oz property thing, I own oz property and lodge an Oz tax return every year and pay no Oz tax, nor am I required to.
The Jet* pilots going to SIN will be on LWOP from their Oz company working for another company that happens to be owned by the same mob they are on LWOP from, so good luck convincing the ATO you have no intention of returning any time soon

A private ruling is the only sure way, but be prepared for disappointment :{

Otherwise, listen to 404 ;) The only one here with actual credentials in this area

International Trader
13th Oct 2010, 06:51
In tax matters, the ATO take a position after making determinations.
You can bend over and cop it in the rear, if you cave in to their threats of pentalties and interest or, you can object.
After the objection you go to court where the position of residency is decided.The court will decide as residency can be a complex isssue. Stand up for yourself but, be prepared to cop it on the chin if you have to.
I don't believe that big 4 tax companies can be all that good because
' Hoges ' was sunk when the accountants files showed "tax avoidance" as the purpose for their meetings!

Most J* guys would be going for the endorsement,hoping to move on to better places later not for tax savings.
I would suggest that some of the "knockers" have personal motives to reduce the numbers who take up this posting.More 330s flying international routes must impact QF flying
If according to Gnadenburg, Qantas pilots did "dob in" Cathay pilots,that's disgusting . How many QF pilots have their little farm,family trust and business scam going ? Sour grapes from the "gods".What a great bunch of guys they must be at QF!
Were you one of the "dobbers" Gnadenburg?

14th Oct 2010, 07:58
International Trader you're wide of the mark.

Guess what? I am just sick of it. The race to the bottom. For a decade plus I have watched Australian pilots say mind your own business, me paying for my endorsement and accepting low wages won't affect you. But it does. These pilots are my competition, the yardstick managements use regionally, to determine wages or how far they will go abusing contracts.

Tough luck. If these mugs, who accept low wages, use the Australian taxpayer to subsidize their lifestyles ( I should say existence ), dob them in.

And they will. Many will be forced to relocate their families back home, because the Asian middle class is booming. Costs of schools, property and lifestyle are inflating. The COS won't cater for an acceptable family existence.

A commuter from Singapore, with his family in Australia, is a resident for taxation purposes.

The ATO is a useful counter to these pilots who use the Australian taxpayer to subsidize an unviable contract.

14th Oct 2010, 10:46
The ATO has apparently already been tipped off...if you know anyone who is planning on taking up this deal it might be wise to warn them about the potential consequences of being on the wrong side of the residency-for-tax-purposes equation...


Bravo Papa
14th Oct 2010, 11:55
Just a question: If you are working (i.e. earning an income) in another country, where you spend the majority of your time, earning that income, based out of that country, where you live, get health care, shop, eat, sleep, catch public transport and whatever else you may choose to do, how are you subsidizing that income you earn there from the Australian tax payer?

14th Oct 2010, 13:35
Because all Oz resients pay tax to their government, this covers the bill for healthcare and education etc which their families make use of.
If the resident moves offshore in some scheme whereby their employer increases company profits with the promise of a lower tax regime for the resident, then it is the Australian taxpayer which must pick up the tab for these services as the resident is now contributing to some foreign governments coffers.

Shot Nancy
14th Oct 2010, 16:40
Dear International Trader et al,

I am pretty sure that Gnadenburg is not and has never been a member of the AIPA.

Do what the QF pilots did to CX pilots. Dob them into the ATO.

I once flew with a fellow who being ex-AIPA exec said the same thing. As to whether the AIPA rank and file knew of such a submission is moot.

I remember when Ansett applied to the relevant authority to take up the capacity to fly to some far flung destinations. I read the AIPA's very amusing anti-Ansett submission to said authority. I wish I had taken a copy.

I am sure that there are professional accountants or solicitors viewing this site that can search submissions to the ATO by AIPA and point us towards the facts.

The Professor
14th Oct 2010, 21:08
"These pilots are my competition"

...and you appear reluctant to compete. Are you going to evolve in the new airline industry or are you going to be left behind?

"A commuter from Singapore, with his family in Australia, is a resident for taxation purposes."

But a commuter from HKG, with his family in Australia, is not a resident for tax purposes?

Why the difference?

14th Oct 2010, 22:41
I worked oversea some years ago and was advised that the ATO look upon these issues on a case-by-case basis. This was a 7-8 years ago and things have probably changed.

The residency concept evolved from the question of "how many days per year are you in Australia?" to your degree of 'connectedness' with the Australian system. Intention to return to Australia had nothing to do with and your participation in the local tax system had a fair baring too.

The advice given to me was to:

write to the ATO and telling them that I moving overseas.
Hand in Medicare care and get my own health insurance (contractor did that).
Contractor took care of overseas tax liability (was in contract).
Have 'connectedness' in overseas city- Rental, telephone , utilities, bank account, drivers licence, etc.
Reduce connectedness in Australia ..(terminate bank account, telephone, utilities etc..).
Be prepared that the ATO would still assess as a 'PAYE' and have to fight them in the AAT.Things are probably a little different now.

Shot Nancy, I read the said AIPA document when it was released and , yes, was a total pisser, save that they were serious. I recall one section that said that Ansett should not be permitted capacity on international operations on safety grounds because its Pilots had "no international 4 engine jet experience" or words to that effect.

dragon man
14th Oct 2010, 23:48
No Qantas pilot dobbed in Cathy pilots to the ATO. Approx 15 years ago a Qantas pilot who wanted to work overseas on a contract was advised by a deputy commisioner in the ATO to seek a private ruling. In their application they painted 3 different scenarios of how they could be employed with commuting to Aus been one of them. A ruling was issued that then becomes binding and is available to the public on the ATO web site. That ruling indicated that having a family in Australia while working overseas and spending more than a certain number of days in Aus per year meant you were liable for Australian tax.

15th Oct 2010, 00:05
The Fact there are guys wanting to dob in fellow workers to the ATO because they undermined them is more proof of the dog -eat dog environment pilots are in. Management will continue to take full advantage of this .
Heard the 787 rating will cost 25K each ...............and contract to be less that JQ AUS A320. (bonuses deleted).
Good luck climbing over each other for that you animals.

15th Oct 2010, 00:13
Gnads, go one better mate and hide behind the name of "whistleblower" when you dob all your colleagues in to the ATO.

Not only will you have the satisfaction of feeding it to the mugs but nobody will be able to touch you because as a whistleblower you can pretty much accuse anybody of anything and get away with it.

That is of course if you are prepared to publicly blow the whistle.

15th Oct 2010, 01:17
"These pilots are my competition"

...and you appear reluctant to compete. Are you going to evolve in the new airline industry or are you going to be left behind?

"A commuter from Singapore, with his family in Australia, is a resident for taxation purposes."

But a commuter from HKG, with his family in Australia, is not a resident for tax purposes?

Why the difference?

A nonsensical rebuke my dear Professor.

WTF has HKG commuting got to do with this?

I'm after a 10% pay rise this year plus other benefits. Australian pilots working in Singapore for peanuts, are my regional competition. Airline management are now using a catch cry of market competition for wage improvements irrespective of company profits or other factors such as cost of living.

Now, if Australian pilots can only afford to fly with Jetstar in Singapore, by having their families reside in Australia propped up by the taxpayer, the contract is being artificially supported.

15th Oct 2010, 01:21
Gnads, go one better mate and hide behind the name of "whistleblower" when you dob all your colleagues in to the ATO.

I don't work for Jetstar. They are not my colleagues.

The pilots going to Singapore, working for new wage lows, are a dangerous threat to my profession. I hope they get a realistic contract or it falls down around them..

Bravo Papa
15th Oct 2010, 01:24
Oh yeh so what if I don't have a family? Or I'm married but don't have kids, and my partner is coming with me? What if I'm separated and my family already live abroad, say the US, does that make me a US resident for tax purposes because I pay child support to them there?

Get real you bunch and realise it's not all so black and white!

15th Oct 2010, 01:30
I cant believe we are arguing about the TAX! News Flash the proposed T&Cs are crap!!! Anybody who accepts this exploitation deserves what they get ... poverty (and a very sore arse).

15th Oct 2010, 01:33

You may not have noticed, but nobody is arguing it is black & white .

Bravo Papa
15th Oct 2010, 01:42
News Flash the proposed T&Cs are crap!!!Oh so you'll be able to tell us all exactly what these proposed T&C's are then?

You may not have noticed, but nobody is arguing it is black & white

Oh really? From what some people are saying on this thread they seem to think it is very black and white!

15th Oct 2010, 03:15
Oh so you'll be able to tell us all exactly what these proposed T&C's are then?
Yeah I could ... but I'll summarize it for you in a simple digestible word CRAP!!! regardless where you pay tax.

The Professor
15th Oct 2010, 06:15
"WTF has HKG commuting got to do with this?"

Pointing out that a jetstar SIN pilot spending days off with the family in oz is no more liable for oz tax than a CX/KA pilot doing the same.

But thanks for your concern all the same.

15th Oct 2010, 07:14
Firstly i am not a pilot.

But from what i read on this thread the T&Cs are crap.

Aviation in S'pore just doesn't pay anymore!

Some expats in business and banking in S'pore still get $7K SGD/mth apartments and $200K pa salaries, and more !

But Aviation pays poor.

Maybe if you're a young bloke with no strings attached, willing to give it a go to get some hours and experience, it may work for you.

But if you're married with kids forget it !

I hear Tiger Capts are getting $20K + a month for short term contracts.

Now thats more like it.

Good luck to all !

Bravo Papa
15th Oct 2010, 11:38
Yeah I could ... but I'll summarize it for you in a simple digestible word CRAP!!! regardless where you pay tax.

So why don't you mate? Funny thing is that no one on this thread has stated actual figures!

I hear Tiger Capts are getting $20K + a month for short term contracts.

That's a figure and i know it's correct.. So why can't all you people who are saying the Jetstar Singapore T&C's are crap actually give any raw figures!?

15th Oct 2010, 12:01
If J* management were so proud of there T&Cs don't you think they would be publishing them on their website for all to see? All I can find is the Oz T&Cs which their bent on destorying.
In a nutshell: 8 days off in 28 days; No superannuation (well included in the base rate); Loss of Licence $50KUSD for FOs; Layover Allowance $5 SGD per duty hour for all duty hours either side of the overnight; guaranteed min 150 hours per quarter = $72000SGD hourly rate $120SGD; 5 weeks annual leave $2100SGD per week; sick leave 14 days pay built into base rate; merit based promotion; no other allowances, penalties, yearly bonuses. If you dont have an A330 endorsement it comes out of your pay roughly around $20000SGD pa for just under 3 years. Enjoy living in Singas:} Is that RAW enough for you BP?

17th Oct 2010, 03:09
I think you will find thats for the f/o's. The capt deal is base 10k per month, with $200 p/hr over 50 from then on. Rough figures for a skipper are 195-200k sing for 850 hrs per yr.(including the yearly bonuses ) The BIG difference is J* are not providing any rental/housing or schooling assistance.
Schooling is expensive, and rent will cost around 3500-4500p/mth for a nice 2 bedroom place.
From what I have heard, the guys going are moving up, taking families etc with them, as the company made it very clear they will not make a commuting roster. All this rubbish about guys coming home for days off is simply garbage. (Besides, if they did they would be doing the same very dodgy thing as all the CX guys that are based in HKG but live in Aust with their families currently do).
You will be employed by J* asia,not J* aust.
I know one of the guys who was looking at the deal and he found out a few more of the facts.
The funny thing is, I hear 2 guys who are going up are in fact current EBA 330 skippers!!!, so things must be really bad at home if they going one would imagine???!!! The other thing he mentioned is that they have more than enough guys willing/wanting to go.
As I have said before, just make sure you get all the facts, and seek proper advice before jumping if it applies to you.....

17th Oct 2010, 05:14
Annualised Block Hours Captains,
600 650 700 750 800 850 900 950
$SGD151,250 162,250 173,250 184,250 195,250 206,250 217,250 228,250

$USD116,768 125,260 133,752 142,254 150,737 159,229 167,721 176,214

600 HRS Garanteed, the rest well if you did one three day trip a week to Melbourne guessing 15 hrs x 47 weeks = 705hrs

First Officers 60%
5 weeks Annual Leave
8 days off in 28 days

The above are company figures there is no more.

Go for its great:ugh:

Tony the Tiler
17th Oct 2010, 08:04
Some selected areas of interest from the JQ (Valuair) A330 contract.

You may be required to carry out other duties in the air or on the ground related to the role of Pilot or that are within the skills and capabilities of a Pilot at any of the Company establishments or at any location nominated by the Company.

Pilot or general dogs body.

The Company's intention is to publish the roster 10 days prior to the commencement of each roster month.

We intend to do a lot of things but don't.

The Company will provide the maximum notice possible of any roster change.

How does 3 seconds sound.

You will be rostered for a minimum of eight Days Off in each 28 day period. If you take annual leave, your Days Off for that 28 day period will be reduced on a pro-rata basis.

Hello single days off.

You must sign-on at the Sign-on time as provided in the roster. However, you may be contacted before the Sign-on time in the event of a known delay and advised that your Sign-on time has been delayed, in which case the Block Hours, and flight and duty limitations for those Block Hours, will correspond to the delayed Sign-on time.

I can't see any way the company could abuse this clause, it's watertight.

You must be reasonably contactable via telephone for at least 24
hours prior to any rostered Sign-on time.

You must be at our beck and call.

Planned duties for any Duty Period may be varied or extended, at the discretion of the Company, before or after commencement of that Duty Period. If your duty is extended or varied under this clause, you must operate the duty unless there are special circumstances that prevent you from doing so.

Can you feel the love.

You will be paid an hourly rate of SGD$200 ("Hourly Rate").

Should your scheduled Block Hours for any calendar quarter be less than 150, the Company will make a payment to you at the end of the quarter equivalent to the shortfall in scheduled Block Hours multiplied by your Hourly Rate.

You wouldn't want to get sick / go on annual leave in any CALENDAR quarter, unless 150 x $200 SGD is enough for you.

Following the completion of each 12 months continuous service with the Company, the Company will provide you with an International Posting Payment of 10% x [TOTAL # of scheduled Block Hours, Annual Leave and Medical Leave paid in the 12 months] x [Hourly Rate].

Should you become a Singapore citizen or Permanent Resident, your
entitlement to the I nternational Posting Payment will cease and you and the Company will commence participation in the Central Provident Fund (CPF) Scheme as required by law. In this circumstance, payment for uncompleted years will be pro rated.

International posting allowance - the Australian tax office won't see a problem with this - so long as you pay tax in Australia. So much for being a non resident for taxation purposes.

For each completed year of service, you are entitled to 5 x one week blocks of annual leave. You are eligible to take accrued annual leave after completion of 6 months' continuous service.

Annual leave must be taken at times rostered by the Company. If you wish to take annual leave at a particular time, you should submit an application as early as possible for the Company to consider.

Taken at times rostered by the Company - we will consider your request. Can anyone say "computer says no".

If you have not taken your full 5 weeks annual leave by the end of a year, the untaken portion will be forfeited.

Sounds reasonable, not legal in Australia - but this isn't Kansas Dorothy.

17th Oct 2010, 13:16
God, it's even worse than I'd imagined:{

There are always a couple of sheep to the dip but surely not the number that would make this viable in Jetstar's eyes?

The worst is, we at Jetstar control your leave but if we don't give all, some or even any of it to you, you forfeit it. WTF? How can you forfeit something you have no control over?

Machiavellian Bastardry in action.

17th Oct 2010, 13:43
Do a google search for Singapore accomodation and car sales and you will be rather suprised. Also bear in mind the nearing $1.30 SG to the AUD $1.00 rate as well.

Other Singapore expats would love to have such a fantastic and lucrative wage and condition package - like Bangladishi construction workers!

All jokes aside i'm actually struggling to work out how a F/O wouldn't actually go backwards financially on this package with living expenses as they are in Singapore?

Tony the Tiler
17th Oct 2010, 13:57
All jokes aside i'm actually struggling to work out how a F/O wouldn't actually go backwards financially on this package with living expenses as they are in Singapore?

Puff, I must clarify, this is a CAPTAINS contract. :ugh::ugh::ugh::sad:

17th Oct 2010, 14:06
Sounds like a 'beyond cloud-cuckoo land' deal !

Bravo Papa
17th Oct 2010, 22:06
The worst is, we at Jetstar control your leave but if we don't give all, some or even any of it to you, you forfeit it. WTF? How can you forfeit something you have no control over?

Same thing happens at Tiger Singapore..

17th Oct 2010, 23:04
I'm sorry, but if you accept those conditions then you deserve everthing that you get. Don't complain after the fact. This is simply corporate bastardry and easily the worst conditions I've ever seen. There are guys flying chieftains on charter ops who will have a better lifestyle than you. At least they can choose when to have holidays and don't have to forfeit what they don't use. This is a disgrace. I don't work for jetstar but I'll add my support at the Hamo in November boys.

Bravo Papa
18th Oct 2010, 03:27
This is simply corporate bastardry and easily the worst conditions I've ever seen.

Well you obviously haven't seen much then have you? I think the guys going to Tiger Singapore are getting a worse deal and what about all those pilots in the USA? I think a guy called Michael Moore may have even made a documentary about it....? :8

Capitalism: A Love Story: A pilot issue that strikes right at the heart of our economic woos. Moore asks the questions! (http://hubpages.com/hub/Capitalism-is-the-best-economic-system-in-the-worldor-is-it)

Michael Moore: Do You Want Airline Pilots to Be Working Two Jobs? | Crooks and Liars (http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/michael-moore-do-you-want-airline-pil)

18th Oct 2010, 03:38
Oh, that makes it OK then:ugh::D

Bravo Papa
18th Oct 2010, 03:56
Oh, that makes it OK then

No, I didn't say that.

I am merely pointing out that this isn't something new, it's been happening all over the world, the Jetstar deal is definitely not the worst of it and bitching and moaning on PPRuNe isn't going to achieve much for the cause! :D:D:ugh::ugh:

18th Oct 2010, 04:51
Thanks for the update bravo papa. Did I suggest that this kind of corporate bastardry was new? Did I suggest I was going to harp on about it on prune or did I maybe suggest I was going to do something practical and add support to the meeting in Bris? But thanks for going to the effort to tell us what a big Mike Moore fan you are.

18th Oct 2010, 06:52
Be proactive, submit something to the senate inquiry and stop this "bastardry"!

18th Oct 2010, 07:01
:uhoh: The Auckland-Singapore-Auckland flights remain off the schedule online qantas.com and jetstar.co.nz :uhoh:

White T-Shirt
19th Oct 2010, 10:27
Any further info in what's being put on the table for fo's?

Going Boeing
19th Oct 2010, 10:57
Any further info in what's being put on the table for fo's?

A large jar of Vaseline. :rolleyes:

White T, I know it's your first post but in case you haven't got the jist of this thread (& many other threads over the last 10 years), the only way that we can stop airline management further eroding our T & C's (& thus ruining our proud profession) is for us all to stand together and refuse employment under crap conditions. Every person who accepts this type of employment is playing a part in ruining the profession for future generations. If you are currently employed, I urge you to remain with your current employer and remain patient - there are signs that there will be job opportunities with better companies coming up in the next couple of years.

19th Oct 2010, 21:39
To those of you that take these positions, be VERY aware of the hate for you that will be held by your aussie off-siders. You may very well become the next generation version of the SCAB.

Consider CAREFULLY your future plans and if they involve flying jet aircraft in Australia, then I urge you to consider the history of the industry in Australia and its treatment of people like yourself. Aussie pilots have in the past and still presently show unimaginable anger and dissent towards this type of behaviour.

Just think carefully!!

Artificial Horizon
19th Oct 2010, 22:02
There is no seperate FO contract!! take the Captain contract and reduce all payscales, overtime etc to 60% of the Captains. There you have it the FO deal in Singapore. Still atleast it is 60% in Singapore unlike the 50% in Jetstar NZ:(

20th Oct 2010, 00:19
To those of you that take these positions, be VERY aware of the hate for you that will be held by your aussie off-siders. You may very well become the next generation version of the SCAB.

Pot calling the kettle black I'm afraid.

You guys lowered the benchmark for the A320 several years ago. Even your offsiders at VB were being paid more to fly an airplane of equivalent size! QF pilots treated you guys with disdain and now you are trying the same thing with your own peers!!!!!

Good start to solidarity.:ugh:

20th Oct 2010, 01:16
I dont work for jetstar mate, I'm just stating the obvious:ugh:

Back to the bottom of the harbour where you belong kaboy

Sand dune Sam
20th Oct 2010, 05:53
Kaboys right....the Impulse guys sold themselves out long long ago..well before Vb ever came on the scene...now its a case of the undercutters being undercut!!.......Still, these things wouldnt happen if pilots only stood up to management and put up a united front on in the first place........

20th Oct 2010, 09:22
campdoag you idiot, you guys have got what you guys deserve!!!! The nopulse clowns started it, and they are now getting it back. I agree, pot calling the kettle black !!!!!

20th Oct 2010, 14:19
If someone wants to go to Jetstar Singapore that's there business, not yours Campdoag.

As for the terms and conditions, I've been up here for years and can't yet afford to go back (to Qantas).

20th Oct 2010, 20:23
So what are you retards going to say when someone comes in to undercut the the Jetstar sing guys, who undercut the impulse guys, who undercut the supremacists at QF.

You guys ARE the pure hypocrisy that is fuelling this race to the bottom perhaps in fear of a 89 repeat, or some other self perpetuating ego stroking reason.

Those who go to singas are the guys who wont stand together and say no enough is enough............

And just once more for the retards that cant read I dont work for jetstar.....
My interest is fuelled purely by the concern that if it can happen at jetstar it can happen anywhere

21st Oct 2010, 02:54
I reckon the fat controllers in upper management have a perennial bet going. How many post will it take against us in management until the idiots we employ as pilots start ripping into each other, for some such sh^t, the thread is locked and we can go back to our Grange.

I think maybe a few may have been out of pocket with the 100+ posts, but it was always going to be a fait acompli. :D


22nd Oct 2010, 10:39

With your moniker and post I just have to ask:

Did you go to Singapore because you wanted to experience some of what asia has to offer or did you go hoping to enhance your career/promotion prospects based on what (I assume) you were told by QF Flight Ops managers whom I have no doubt exhibit an honesty and transparency in dealing with flight crew that is truly beguiling and breathtaking??

If the latter.....were you sold a pup??

galdian :ok:

Dark Knight
24th Oct 2010, 00:53
Is this the contract we are talking about??

George and his 787 pilot contract (http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7378299)

Maybe an improvement on what is on offer?

24th Oct 2010, 01:19
I'm not a regular poster on pprune but I thought I'd share some information i have have just been told to see if anyone can verify who maybe a little more in the know.

Latest news is JQ Aus boys and girls (especially FO's) are ridiculously short and many are supplementing in other bases and doing a lot of overtime. Now the twist, instead of hiring guys off the hold file they are talking about getting in contract pilots from Europe!!

Any truth to this??

24th Oct 2010, 05:41

Fruet Mich
25th Oct 2010, 20:05
You've gotta love shortsighted, money hungry, ill informed and to some extent naive airline management! It's all going to come crashing around these guys ears. Don't worry about the few that do take this contract and others. They won't get enough crew you can bet ya bottom dollar on that! They have already see they were unable to crew the NZ operation and now these "great leaders" have had to increase the capt salary offer once again and offer free type ratings.

As I've said before, if you can't get crew you will have to pay for it, and pay for it they will. Buchanan won't be made out to be a fool, his career is riding on this to. If he has aircraft parked he had failed, and he will see more and more aircraft parked. I will bet my left testy, a great deal of his staff will leave for better paying jobs and leave him in a right mess. If you don't look after your staff there will be no loyalty. I can't believe he hasn't figured it out yet! It's priceless! If he thinks he'll just hire crew from over seas he's pulling his wee one.

If this guy wanted to be a great CEO he'd start thinking with his head and not his wallet, respect commands loyalty.

Let's just all sit back and watch the Buchanan show, and what a great show it's going to be. His intellect will be his downfall. :ok:

25th Oct 2010, 23:30
They have already see they were unable to crew the NZ operation and now these "great leaders" have had to increase the capt salary offer once again and offer free type ratings.

Any figures on the "increase" ? (Will certainly help the goodwill towards the Company from the present guys.....) NOT!

25th Oct 2010, 23:47
What a load of croc. The qf boys going to Jetstar on the MOU ARE also lowering the bar destroying their cushy lifestyle for career enhancement. If the Qf boys were serious they would demand qf salary while working for Jetstar or not come at all.

25th Oct 2010, 23:48
I will bet my left testy, a great deal of his staff will leave for better paying jobs and leave him in a right mess.

The trouble is Fruet, that the previous efforts of many Jq/ Impulse pilots have ensured that there are not many highly paid positions elsewhere. And those taking Singapore positions on reduced expat terms are expanding the cesspit that is Australian aviation.

26th Oct 2010, 01:29
Why is that point lost on so many people in Australia Karunch???

They just don't see the simplicity of it. The fact that Jetstar Singapore can attract Australians on reduced expat terms, directly affects threatens current COS's from management attack in the region, and the negotiating power for improvement in high inflation, booming Asia.

There will be no well paid jobs soon. Just jealousy at those who had them and those who have financial security.

Australain pilots represent the greatest threat to COS's in Asia. Far more so than Kiwis and Filipinos combined.

26th Oct 2010, 13:27
Interesting to see all the bickering from the naysayers sitting in their glass houses criticising Impulse/Jetstar pilots from jumping ship to Singas.:* The small number of these JQ pilots heading over to Singas are mainly ex-Ansett ,not ex-Impulse.:=

The Professor
26th Oct 2010, 17:16
"The fact that Jetstar Singapore can attract Australians....." shows that the labor market has spoken my greedy little friend.

27th Oct 2010, 01:34
The Professor

Greedy? For maintaining and improving your wage throughout your airline career.So that would make you the working poor for doing the opposite Mr Low Cost Pilot.

Even more so, when the ATO garnishes your wage if you leave your family in Oz.

The Professor
27th Oct 2010, 01:37
"So that would make you the working poor for doing the opposite Mr Low Cost Pilot."

Not a pilot, a retired but very high cost manager. Market forces were good to me.

27th Oct 2010, 01:48
Market forces or was it the corrupt nature of the monetary system that enriched you? Being one of the "elite" allowed you to be complicit in, and benefit from the "steal from the poor & give to the rich" nature of the system, professor.

27th Oct 2010, 01:57
Have a look at his previous posts.......

High end manager? Doubt it. At best, a contract pilot and self-promoter who probably used draconian employment laws abroad, to shaft his colleagues for a Judas sum.

Shark Patrol
27th Oct 2010, 08:49
For the last few years, I have read the posts made by The Professor on a wide range of subjects on this BB.

He (she?) unfailingly champions "free market" forces whereby any employee within an organisation who attempts to improve their lot by achieving a higher wage must be a grubby, greedy individual. Management, however, are perfectly justified in doing all in their power to reduce their costs and maximise their profits. The Professor, presumably, finds that the outrageous bonusses and golden parachutes paid to managers pre-GFC are justifiable through the largesse of "market forces" and "world's best practice".

After reading his/her last two posts on this thread which are, at least, consistent (if not in any way constructive to the debate), I would offer the following observation.

At best, The Professor is a troll who takes every opportunity to make provocative and inflammatory remarks on a variety of debates with respect to an industry that is undergoing unprecedented change. Presumably he/she draws some level of satisfaction from provoking people who wish to make the piloting profession a sustainable industry in an industrial/management environment that is increasingly being dominated by people who feels as he does. At worst, The Professor is, as he simply states in his most recent post: "Not a pilot, a retired but very high cost manager." Such smug arrogance is indeed in character with the despised group of indiuviduals in which The Professor seems to claim likemindedness.

I have no problem with informed robust debate, but I do have a problem with people making deliberately provocative posts on a BB on which they are not entitled (or qualified) to post on.

Since this BB is clearly called the "Professional Pilots Rumour Network" I would request that the moderators of this BB revoke his right to make any further posts on this forum.

27th Oct 2010, 09:52
I would expect that someone playing devils advocate would provide a valuable service to any forum, otherwise you are in danger of just having people agreeing with each other. Especially if the viewpoint expressed is not one that would otherwise be expected to be made known on this forum.
'I may not agree with what you say but i will defend to the death your right to say it.' (Voltaire)

27th Oct 2010, 16:31
"....you are in danger of just having people agreeing with each other."

Herd mentality always trumps balanced debate. Dissent is to be feared. Contrary opinions are to be ignored. Alternative voices are to be shouted down.

History is to be repeated.

The Professor
28th Oct 2010, 17:30
"I would request that the moderators of this BB revoke his right to make any further posts on this forum."

As oic has alluded to, the best thing you guys can do right now is listen to opinions that are contrary to your own.

To "revoke his right to make any further posts on this forum" is to ignore the pitfalls of those who have trodden this path before you.

Jetstar is just the beginning of the demise of organized labor within QF. Entrenching yourselves will only accelerate this process.

Lets wait and see what JQ has plans for beyond Singapore.

Shark Patrol
28th Oct 2010, 21:21
Jetstar is just the beginning of the demise of organized labor within QF.

And this must make you so happy eh Prof? You'd just love to see the demise of Qantas mainline and everybody lose their jobs so that you could smugly pontificate about "market forces".


28th Oct 2010, 21:44
Actually, I reckon that J* and Bruce Buchanan are doing more to ensure the future of organised labour within the QF group than anyone else over the last 20 years. Just goes to show the 'vision' of Dixon, Joyce, et al. :rolleyes:

The Professor
29th Oct 2010, 19:38
"And this must make you so happy eh Prof? You'd just love to see the demise of Qantas mainline and everybody lose their jobs so that you could smugly pontificate about "market forces"

And this post is where the problem lies.

My argument has never been about what makes us "happy" or what I would "love to see". I have never attached emotion to the vagaries of the market place. The market does not "care" about your feelings or mine.

You should stop beating your fists on the table and howling to the moon about how unfair life is and start planning a strategy for coping with change instead of playing victim.

29th Oct 2010, 21:31
Dear Professor, the "free market" that you write of has not existed since Dec 23 1913. Every market, has been manipulated since that date. The "free market" is just another illusion, another shell game. You got wealthy perpetuating the market myth, so you want to see it continue. Did you actually create any wealth during your working life? Or were you one of the parasites feeding on the host, transferring wealth from those that actually create wealth to those that control the system.

Shark Patrol
29th Oct 2010, 23:32
The market does not "care" about your feelings or mine.

And this is the problem with your post Prof (and the other sociopaths who think like you).

You think that there should be no emotion attached to the "vagaries of the market place". What management parasites like you forget is that "the market place" as you term it consists of people and their lives.

People tend to be emotional beings, and when the way they live their lives is under threat from people who have no qualms about taking money out of their mouths to feather their own nests, they tend to get a little bit emotional.

You think that you are free to pontificate in your ivory tower, make your plans for "the market place", improve your own financial position through cutting other people's remuneration and then just shrug your shoulders and say its "just a vagary of the market place" without thinking of the consequences to the people in that market place.

People who think like you make me sick, Prof, especially when they have the temerity to boast about how well "market forces" have served them. Your mindset is straight out of the Dixon playbook and I feel the same about you as nearly every frontline employee of Qantas felt about him.

I do not have to howl at the moon, Prof, because I will probably be retired before the current management industrial plans at Qantas are complete. I just feel sorry for the young aspiring pilots who are starting off in this industry who will have to continue to deal with "people" like you!!!!

30th Oct 2010, 00:49
And this is the problem with your post Prof (and the other sociopaths who think like you).
That is akin to shooting the messengers when you don’t like their message. The following premise is advocated by the documentary called ‘The Corporation’ (2004) which is based on the book ‘The Corporation: The Pathological Pursuit of Profit and Power’ by Professor Joel Bakan:
modern Corporations are driven by the motive to generate profits for shareholders, regardless of how this affects the interests of workers, society, or the environment. The corporation, in fact, is so driven by self-interest and financial greed that it fits the personality profile of a psychopathic individual.
These are the real culprits and the ones against which we should ALL be uniting.

The Professor
2nd Nov 2010, 04:39
"You think that there should be no emotion attached"

I am not suggesting that employees are not emotionally involved. I am suggesting that the market does not account for this. It’s a simple fact. I understand your frustration but the market is not me. I cannot control it and I certainly cant force hedge fund managers in Beverly Hills or Nice to be kind and understanding when shifting trillions of dollars of capital from a western country with inflexible high cost labor to an emerging market with low cost pliable labor.

2nd Nov 2010, 05:14
A dilettante sciolist who loves to play devils advocate in his dotage.

Jack Ranga
2nd Nov 2010, 05:43
Either way you blokes are a bit of a joke, sounds like SIN will happen. You all could put a stop to it fairly easily, but..............

2nd Nov 2010, 08:18
Jack Ranga

Checked a few previous pages, apologies if you have already expanded previously.

Two questions:
- what, in the view of JR, are the actions required to stop the SIN exercise;
- why haven't these been actioned or, equally, why wouldn't they be actioned by the group(s) so adversely affected.

Just interestered.

The Professor

Well played! :ok::ok:

I do prefer captainrats statement regards your good self, thought Shark Patrol's a little over the top IMHO (having seen your picture I see no resemblance between yourself and Jack the Ripper).

Although on revisiting maybe a few similarities?? ;)

To make people agree, decry or centralise - maybe not a bad moniker.

2nd Nov 2010, 08:32
Professor, the "free market" does not exist. The onus is on you to prove that it does, as you continue to assert its existance. I contend the "market" is not free, but centrally planned, and has been for almost 100 years. I await your rebuttal.

The Professor
2nd Nov 2010, 18:20
“Professor, the "free market" does not exist.”

The “free market” is like “capitalism”, a fantastic ideal but generally non-existent.

There are no examples of a completely free labor market in Australia, or any western nation for that matter. I use the term “free” to describe the labor markets relative position.

In the case of cockpit crew in JQ, the market is virtually unhindered by industrial barriers relative to an airline such as QF. Direct entry commands, ease of relocation, offshore basing, Greenfield conditions – just a few examples of what can be achieved following the removal of artificial barriers created by organized labor.

But you are correct; the market is not completely free of impediments - although opening up employment positions in Australia to foreign applicants would be a step in this direction.

“The onus is on you to prove that it does”

How much input did JQ pilots have to the salary and conditions of the SIN operation?

Jack Ranga
2nd Nov 2010, 23:24

You get together as a group, you agree not to accept the positions. But that is not going to happen is it?

3rd Nov 2010, 19:21
"You all could put a stop to it fairly easily, but.............."


Jack Ranga
3rd Nov 2010, 21:46

I've had quite a few 'career changes' over my time. Most of them have been in unionised (for good reason) industries. Of all those industries the piloting 'profession' is the most fractured, self centred and short sighted of them all.

3rd Nov 2010, 21:55
I certainly would like more solidaridy but I don't think you can compare flying with other "unionised industries". The main difference is that we really love our jobs and that puts managers at a natural advantage...

The Professor
12th Nov 2010, 18:01
".....you agree not to accept the positions"

But this makes no sense.

Are you suggesting that you agree not to accept the position on behalf of somebody else? Because that somebody else has already offered to "accept the position" otherwise there would be no takers for the SIN base.

Therefore are you denying somebody else (someone you probably dont know) the right to make their own decision?

How would you feel if that decision was being made on your behalf?

Muff Hunter
12th Nov 2010, 20:50
I hear that singapore caas have told jetstar that they cannot use the pilots that they have given contracts to for the 330 positions...not enough wide body experience.

The flying will now be based out of melbourne ufn.....and guess what???not enough crew to fly them.

What a pack of amatures!

12th Nov 2010, 22:17
So what does this mean for the guys who signed up??:}

12th Nov 2010, 22:58
What a pack of amatures!


Just another example of commercial ignorance (arrogance?) trying to run roughshod over what used to be considered prudent flight ops practice.

REG and and his mates aren't amatures. They're are very good at what they're qualified in. Just that some would argue running airlines isn't it. Clearly didn't learn from the JQNZ start up debacle. You think SQ will offer $50 fares for disrupt pax like AirNZ did?

If what you say is true and the SIN CAA has pulled the pin, finally, a jurisdiction with some balls.

Where does that leave all the recent widebody temp transfers?

Gas Bags
12th Nov 2010, 22:58
Perhaps they will be based out of MEL on the SIN conditions???

13th Nov 2010, 01:14
Have heard from an old blue shirt mate,that the CAA issue was only due to the f/o experience levels. No experience problems with the capts going. ( many already have widebody cmd time.) Due to the delays with training, melb flights to kick off with Aust guys until the JQAsia guys trained up early next year.
Sounds like yet another well organised jetstar plan??!!

13th Nov 2010, 05:31
You sure caas didn't approve the jq pilots? I thought all widebody pilots start with narrowbodies first...

Anyway if its true, then caas seems to be in fail mode. First they failed tiger's pilots causing them painful cancellations ex sin, and now they fail jq's pilots!

13th Nov 2010, 10:05
My information from 4 330 training captains running my course is that only 1 of the applicants has wide body CMD time, while a handfull have widebody Fo time. The only fo's they could get and present to the authorities were pilots with no jet time at all!!! It was the combination of Capt's without widebody time + No jet experience Fo's that had them nervous and telling the fool's in Melb to have another think about their proposal.

Mstr Caution
13th Nov 2010, 10:14
Due to the delays with training, melb flights to kick off with Aust guys until the JQAsia guys trained up early next year.

That's going to test the resolve of the local guys & girls.
Operate the service until they source & finish training your ultra low cost replacements!

13th Nov 2010, 10:25
so....training captains....dont train them!!!

13th Nov 2010, 22:48
Test the resolve of the local guys and girls?
What they will refurse to operate the Singapore flights or operate them at a lower standard then they do the rest of the network?
Wake up. If you look at the numbers, the Sydney base is over crewed (F/O`s) by the exact amount required to crew another A330. Guys were spared a forced move to crew these fligths. I think they will be pretty happy about that.

Now with the contracts falling over, these guys are going to be base in Melbourne on the EBA. The contract has backfired alright, but only on the company.

Going Boeing
14th Nov 2010, 02:34
I've been told that there are a number of pilots from SA who have widebody command (Bus) experience that have been accepted for the JQ Asia positions. Management plan for the JQ Aust pilots to "fill in" initially while these guys get their Aust & Singaporean ATPL subjects, then they will take over the operation.

Essentially, the JQ Aust guys who do the initial flying or conduct the Sim checks for foreign pilots are simply assisting management taking their jobs offshore. :yuk:

14th Nov 2010, 04:59
Senate Report due on Tuesday - hopefully it's conclusions will deem the deal equally offensive.


14th Nov 2010, 05:01
Can someone please explain all the hoohaa behind "widebody time"?

Neptunus Rex
14th Nov 2010, 05:57
I agree, Mr Buzzy, a lot of hoo-ha.
The important thing to have is appropriate jet experience, followed by good training. After that it is simply a matter of size. You have to flare a little higher and be more aware when pushing back, taxiing and parking. You also need to get used to your eyeball position relative to the centreline in a strong crosswind, and be prepared for your ass to be over the grass if you have to perform a 180 on a standard runway.

Then they will shout:
"What about all that inertia/momentum?"

Well, that is why your wider body has bigger donks, bigger wings, bigger control surfaces and more powerful brakes. Turning radius is purely dependent on TAS and Bank Angle.
Oh, one more difference, the tucker is usually better on a wide-body!

15th Nov 2010, 03:30
Hey Buzzy,

It's all smoke n mirrors mate. Just "the best trying to protect their patch".

A different slant on the same old argument why Qlink Dash pilots could NEVER fly jets. Just not up to it. It's so hard that you turboprop pilots couldn't do it.:ugh:

15th Nov 2010, 04:46
The “free market” is like “capitalism”, a fantastic ideal but generally non-existent.
Well, they might be "fantastic" ideals if human beings were both consistently rational and honourable.

But we're not. So they're not always "fantastic" (ask any investor who has lost their money, or ponder how close many ordinary people came to losing their life savings if various Governments hadn't guaranteed bank deposits).

Ideals are almost never all they're cracked up to be, Professor.

15th Nov 2010, 09:39
Widebody is the domain of only the gifted, if you haven't got it you just don't get it!

Maybe when I grow up I can get it, but I have been told it could take a while.

15th Nov 2010, 23:11
4 engine time is even more vital, except 146 of course!:p

16th Nov 2010, 04:51
I know how to fly but I'm definitely no ace of the base...

I can honestly say the -400 is the easiest aircraft I've ever flown...



18th Nov 2010, 01:07

Wash your mouth out son!!

Don't blow our cover.

Or are you inferring to the Q400??

18th Nov 2010, 03:10

Are we talking about manipulation of 400 or management over the whole operation.. 2 different things I would imagine.

18th Nov 2010, 05:50
I take it all back.

I really AM a skygod because I have thousands of heavy, widebody hours!


PG (with tongue firmly in cheek)

18th Nov 2010, 23:03
Word is the sin contract is no more. is this ture?
Did Qantas step in?

I hear it is to be done by EBA guys out of MEL.

20th Nov 2010, 00:49
Yes, the MELSIN flights will be crewed by Aus EBA pilots (I've seen it published on the December rosters).

How long this lasts is anyones guess? I believe Aus based crews will continue to do it until they sort out what they hell is going on with all troubles they have encountered with trying to set up the SIN base.

20th Nov 2010, 01:41

One of our pilots has just resigned to take up the Jetstar Sing based A330 F/O offer! I've been told $70K SGD P/A (about $54.6 AUD P/A) WTF!!! There are allowances on top of course, but only relating to overtime, and as we know little if any in the way of housing or relocation!

So what happens to these people that put blind ambition above any sort of common sense or consideration for the greater good? Notwithstanding the fact that these positions may no longer exist, I have been told the candidate will not even be paid untill checked to line! When will that now be? Hope these guys have wealthy families, if so could explain a lot!

Will the great benefactor that is Jetstar management look after them and bring them into the fold? Be an amazing punt that paid off for them if that happens...,or will they be cast adrift with not so much as a... "sorry about that".

May be some salient lessons to be learnt in here somewhere. :rolleyes:

20th Nov 2010, 02:08
about $54.6 AUD P/A

tell me thats a joke. :ugh:

20th Nov 2010, 02:15
Does anyone know anymore about the Qantas board getting involved, and putting a stop to this?

Poor old BB....no bonus this year mate.

20th Nov 2010, 03:20
This whole outfit is a Three Ringed Circus. If it wasn't so dire on EVERYBODIES futures, it would be comical. Now the QF Board is getting involved?? A little too late me says. Damage control must be in overdrive atm.

The dollar value of QF/JQ is diminishing in spades. I really do feel for the employees at QF(was one for 11 yrs and Mrs Norma still is), and to a certain extent quite a few of the coal face workers at JQ(excluding Tech Crew), but the collective words of "chickens, home and roost" are really poignant here.

If the current direction in which this rudderless ship continues to be steered doesn't change, I doubt QF will be around in 5 years. Where is Joyce and Co?? Where is Clifford?? Dining out somewhere totally removed from reality at the Company's expense no doubt. The buck stops with you. Shape up or ship out.:ugh:

They should be infront of the media reassuring the Australian people that this situation is totally unacceptable and drastic measures are afoot NOW to remedy the shambles that is the state of our national carrier. Wirth(less) is just that, and so far out of her league it makes me cringe listening to the rabbit. The silence is deafening from the Ivory Tower.

6th Jan 2011, 03:34
Still in the same spot as last year? Or has something been agreed upon? ? ?

clear to land
27th Feb 2011, 13:04
Have heard from who I consider to be a reliable source 'inside' JQ that the current A330 LHS offer for a SIN base works out at approx $AU80k basic. IF this is true a whole new low has been set (although I believe most of the takers are ex AN-what a surprise!) Things are looking up for the QF EBA!!!
Please, someone, prove this wrong/inaccurate..........Please!!!!!!!!!!!

27th Feb 2011, 18:14
Pre tax, post tax? Compare apples with apples. What would this be equivalent to in Au pre-tax, how would that compare to QF basic. There are so many variables. Not saying its good, just get the fact straight first.

Mud Skipper
27th Feb 2011, 18:42
$AU80k basic, who's to know if it's true and who cares. On a basic wage could hang many things bringing this wage up to a very acceptable level.

The spin doctors at Jetstar will always float low numbers out to spook pilots into believing what the industry now pays. You could only just start to live in Singapore on 160K as an expat, don't be foolish enough to believe these purveyors of mischef.

Like after the pilots dispute in 89 and start up of Jetstar of late, some pilots have negotiated great deals way outside any quoted or published numbers, it all depends on how desperate the company is to look like they have takers and how little the individuals care about how they are perceived or care for their industry as a whole.

You can often pick these toads when you meet them though, they have a particular smell that just stands out.

27th Feb 2011, 21:27
You are what you sign up for in any contract.

Trouble is you drag good folks down to the level of your signature.

As for the reputed "pre history" of some of the signers, did you expect anythig better, too well trained in bottom dwelling.

After 50 years of mostly active, now observing, Aviation I weep for the way it has been allowed to go by the greed of the current players, crew and management.


27th Feb 2011, 22:28
A little off track BUT, going from Turbo prop to jet is no harder than going from, say Cessna 210 to Dash 8.

28th Feb 2011, 13:17

Have you done either or perhaps both?? I rather think not.

These posts bring out all sorts.


28th Feb 2011, 19:39
Forgive her, she's only nine years old!

28th Feb 2011, 21:05

Yes, really.

Dont be mislead by those that say it is the "domain" of only the really really clever drivers that can fly jets. And as for widebody types, well that's the domain of astronauts. Give me a break.:ugh:

28th Feb 2011, 21:12
I would suggest that going from a Turbo-prop to a jet was easier then going from a C210 to a Dash8.
Having never flown a C210 however I can't really add any authority to my comment.

Capt Kremin
28th Feb 2011, 21:18
I would suggest this thread has its gyros well and truly tumbled.

1st Mar 2011, 02:01
Have heard from who I consider to be a reliable source 'inside' JQ that the current A330 LHS offer for a SIN base works out at approx $AU80k basic. IF this is true a whole new low has been set (although I believe most of the takers are ex AN-what a surprise!) Things are looking up for the QF EBA!!!

I am surprised. Most ex-Ansett pilots I know are on 300-400K and are active in protecting and improving COS packages.I have not seen the participation rates in doing this, from former employees of Australian low cost carriers. So I am surprised you can pigeon hole a group as being cellar dwellers...

You blokes are so far gone on pay and conditions, the only hope is your training departments upping the standards all round. Perhaps a former Ansett standard of sim at Jetstar would help. The stories I hear from Jetstar checkers and trainers are third world standard of capabilities. Which means, you are easily replaceable.

Sue Ridgepipe
1st Mar 2011, 03:43
Come now Norma, we all know turbo prop pilots (Dash 8 pilots especially) are incapable of flying jets. That was proven in court wasn't it?

1st Mar 2011, 04:24
"And as for widebody types, well that's the domain of astronauts. Give me a break."

Dont be silly, non astronauts can fly widebody too.

Now, Im off to cocoa beach for a dip before blast off.

1st Mar 2011, 05:47

Touche, my friend. BTW MKs funeral was a fantastic send off for him.


You lucky lucky [email protected]!!:ok:

1st Mar 2011, 10:14
The reality Normasars and Rennurpp is that Greybeard, aside from being one of the best jet instructors that I have had the privilage to be trained by, has probably forgotten more about the operation of jet aircraft than you will ever know.

I am aware that he has type ratings (and experience!) on a variety of transport aircraft that reads like a history of post Korean war aviation. This includes Fokker (prop and F28 & F70/100s) wide body Boeings and wide body Airbus. He has also worked and flown on every continent on earth (except maybe Antarctic but then nothing would surprise me here). He has also trained and is highly regarded by pilots of maybe 30+ nationalities.

Anyone can fly a jet, few can do it really well. Guess what? Greybeard can fly a jet really well. He can also impart knowledge really well.

Wide-body aircraft are a special case operation that needs consideration of issues that are different to the challenges of narrow bodies. Having said that, most pilots who can fly a narrow body jet aircraft well can become good wide body operator with application.

In the same vein, long haul international is not the same as short haul but you just go further.

Many have embraced these perspectives and found egg on their face.

Perhaps a former Ansett standard of sim at Jetstar would help. The stories I hear from Jetstar checkers and trainers are third world standard of capabilities. Which means, you are easily replaceable.

Wow! Got 'em in the goolies with that one. Ouch!!

1st Mar 2011, 21:08
Anthill, your a wan ker!

Greybeard may be the best pilot in the world, good luck to him.

How often do we here a sniveling suck up F/O blowing trumpets up an incompetent training pilots back side. (not suggesting grey beard is, don't know him)

The reality is that a jet is not impossible to fly and most pilots can do it, some better than others, but guess what, some people can fly a turbo prop better than others.

I recall back in my early days, a current 727 captain wanted to hire a C172, no way in this world was he safe enough to be let loose by himself.
At about 10 feet he kept pushing forward on the elevator. That may work in some jets, it doesn't in light aircraft. His attitude was dreadful. I'm a jet captain son, what would you know. Well what I knew was that he wasn't hiring an aircraft with my approval.

Some people shouldn't be allowed out of their house unaided, most people could fly a jet! Get over yourself.

1st Mar 2011, 21:17
Graybeard, no I didn't go straight from 210 to dash 8, I did go from GA direct tonDash captain and then from Dash o jet captain about 15 yes ago, and my opinion is that both were equally difficult.

Training is the key.
I did some training with Jetstar and it was the worst training I have ever received, and that includes in GA. No brief, no debrief, no manuals and a training pilot that was a complete tossed, more interested in CC than his job.
I found that change, from one jet command to another the most difficult, changed training Captains and life becam tollerale again.
These posts bring out all sorts.
Yep, you got that right ace.

1st Mar 2011, 21:39
Before all this goes into a "I am better than Thou" contest.

I have taken C-172, 200 hour pilots to a Lear Jet and F-50 to F-100 transitions and other combinations.
Both processes were well documented by the Operators, the training was a lot of fun and bloddy hard work for both Instructor and Canditate.

"When the Student is ready the Instructor will appear" is and old proverb, there has to be a work together process, different in all combinations, the ability to wriggle through that process is the trick.

As seems to be noted above, not all people should be Instructors, it is an Art Form which not every one can do well. I think most of us have been "victims" of poor instruction processes, the worry is some pass this "skill" on to others in the food chain.
Some people can fly a 747 one morning and a Zlin in the afternoon, most of us can't and probably shouldn't even try.

Just do what you do safely, with care and consideration for both directions in the food chain, and look out for the [email protected]#$ who are out to get you.

Stay safe, I might be on your flight