What's going on with the GAPAN scholarship?

[Rotorthruster]

Looking on the GAPAN scholarship website page there seems to be a curious pattern emerging...

2009 saw the brilliant scholarship of the FI(H) awarded to an ex-RAF Chinook pilot already carving out a civvy career for himself as an air ambulance pilot.

This year the scholarship was awarded to someone already making a career for himself as a flight instructor in the USA.

Naively, I thought the whole point of the scholarship was to help someone get the expensive qualification, enabling them to break into this industry and build a career for themselves. The front of the form clearly states that the scholarship is intended to help those "who might otherwise not have the necessary resources" to gain the scholarship for this invaluble qualification that would serve to really improve someone's career prospects.

So why is the scholarship not being awarded to people who really need it?

[Bravo73]

So why is the scholarship not being awarded to people who really need it?

I understand where you are coming from but do you know if 'the people who really need it' are actually applying for the scholarship?

The board can only award the scholarship to an applicant who fulfils all of the FI course pre-entry requirements.

[Rotorthruster]

trust me when I say I know there are some very eligible very worthy people applying.

[Bravo73]

Then I'm guessing that they messed up at the application or interview stage, I'm afraid.

The board can only make assessments on what is put in front of them.



If you're looking for some sort of conspiracy, you're looking in the wrong place.

[Rotorthruster]

I sincerely hope you are right. Though, I'm not looking for a conspiracy.


I just think that the scholarship should be awarded to someone who is trying to get their career started and not someone who is already established. I'm sure those established people would excel in the interview, they have more knowledge and experience and nothing to lose. But that doesn't makes them worthy of the scholarship.

Clearly you think it should simply go to whomever does the best in the interview and I guess so do the selectors. Enough fair but a great shame and a waste of an opportunity to really help someone and make a difference to their life.

[Pandalet]

I don't know, it's a bit of a slippery slope. Positive discrimination always is.

If you're going to award the cash on the basis of need, you might as well not bother with the presentation/assessment at all - just do enough admin to make sure all prospective candidates meet the requirements to do an FI course. Alternately, it would be nice to think that the people contributing their own money towards adding more FIs to the pool are doing their best to add the best possible FIs they can.

[ShyTorque]

Rotorthruster,

Are you a GAPAN member? If so, why not ask the Guild directly.

Are you a disgruntled applicant? If so, are you aware that the Guild is funded by paying members and not by public money?

If an applicant is unsuccessful, sad and tough. But that's life.

[John Eacott]

So why is the scholarship not being awarded to people who really need it?

I find it intriguing that someone who signs up to create this thread has the chutzpah to imply that previous recipients of the Guild Scholarships did not really need the scholarship := The selection process involves much more than an interview: those chosen are in a position not only to benefit from the FI rating personally but also to return that investment by passing on their experience :ok:

trust me when I say I know there are some very eligible very worthy people applying

Trust you: why? The thrust of your posts are that of either someone who applied and was unsuccessful, or just signed on today to stir for some personal reason.

As a Guild member I believe that GAPAN is a leading Aviation organisation that punches well above its weight. Our Australian Region would love to be able to provide a similar Scholarship to that of the UK, and it is one of the aims that we strive for. Rather than come here to bleat, have you either approached GAPAN with your concerns, or (better still) become a member so that you can express the same concerns 'from within'?

[Rotorthruster]

I am a GAPAN member, I think it would be a good idea to voice my concerns on the inside. However, if this is how badly my concerns are to be received then I'm pretty sure they will fall on deaf ears.


Yes I think it is great that the UK branch can offer this amazing scholarship.

I don't this there is any chutzpah, just logic, in saying that someone who already has an established pilot career doesn't need the scholarship as much as someone desperately trying to make a career for themselves but struggling purely due to financial constraints and not lack of effort, intelligence or ingenuity.

why is that so offensive?

Surely most people using this site are well aware of how hard and expensive it is to break into the industry especially in helicopters and would understand my point of view, rather than take offense.

I am entitled to my own opinion and, as I said earlier, I just think that it is a shame that they choose not to give the scholarship to someone who really needs the help into the industry. But I have politely listened to other opinions expressed here and have said that, yeh, it's their scholarship they can give it to whomever they wish.

[DennisK]

More than interesting ... As many will know, I have been offering a fully funded PPL(H) scholarship for a few years and to date have seen three youngsters qualify to licence stage ... Zoe Spain from Ascot ... now a FISO at FO, Hannah Nobbs ... now working with Agusta Westland in the design department, and Georgie Dixon, working with Sloane Helicopters ... BUT surely the whole idea is to base such an award with financial need firmly to the fore. In fact my scholarship committee specifically rule out all applicants who have fixed wing licences, airline pilots for Dads or similar so ex-service and existing civvy pilots are definitely out.

In fact I often relate the following ... that even as I sit here tapping away to PP, this very evening and somewhere in the UK there is a youngster perhaps in his bedroom which will be decorated with aviation pictures and hopefully helicopters, who has the interest, aviation devotion, determination and motivation to qualify for a civvy licence, but in financial terms has less than a cat in hell's chance of doing so. It gives me considerable comfort to write that around this time next year, this same youngster will be a qualified helicopter pilot.

Just my thoughts which I felt I'd like to share with fellow contributors.

Dennis Kenyon.

[redwolf]

Dennis

I dont normally reply to a post on the forum....but your last one on the GAPAN scholarship just lifted my heart...I am one of those heli nuts you described...no cash...no rich dad....just pure determination that I was going to one day fly helicopters...and just like you say....after working hard and putting every effort into it....I now am a ppl!!

and it was worth every ounce of effort !!!! :ok:

keep the wisdom flowing to all the young guns out there
in these times they need all the encouragement they can get.

:D

Redwolf.

[John Eacott]

Rotorthruster,

I'm pleased to know that you are a GAPAN member, but "However, if this is how badly my concerns are to be received then I'm pretty sure they will fall on deaf ears" sounds a bit negative to me. This thread will have already been read by GAPAN Council members from UK (I don't count us in Oz!), why don't you follow it up and let Rotorheads know the response?

The Guild does award Flying Scholarships (http://www.gapan.org/career-matters/scholarships/) for PPL(A) [5 were made this year] but as an historically fixed-wing oriented organisation the emphasis remains on FW not Rotary: hence no PPL(H) Scholarships. Dennis K is a leader in his philanthropy for the helicopter industry :ok:

I strongly believe that the Weetabix Scholarship for Flight Instructor Rating (Rotary) is awarded according to acceptable criteria; just because a recipient has an established career does not mean that he or she is able to finance themselves into an Instructor Rating. Furthermore, the experience they already have is immensely valuable as an asset to be returned to the industry via that rating, unlike a low hour pilot as mooted by Rotorthruster.

[Flying Lawyer]

Rotorthruster
already making a career for himself as a flight instructor in the USA. :confused:
The 2010 winner worked in the construction industry for many years and, after gaining his PPL(H) in 2008, wanted to become a professional pilot. He didn’t just pipe-dream about it; he set about trying to achieve his ambition. That included (amongst other things) giving up his job and going to the USA to spend some time working as an FAA Flight Instructor.
It’s not an uncommon way of building experience/hours.
Hardly “already making a career for himself as a flight instructor in the USA”.

The front of the form clearly states that the scholarship is intended to help those "who might otherwise not have the necessary resources"
Financial need is not the only consideration. (Nor IMHO should it be.)
The second paragraph sets out clearly, in bold type, the criteria applied. They include: ability to demonstrate a serious ambition and desire to pursue an aviation based career; and educational achievements, demonstrable knowledge and/or experience in science, mathematics or other aviation related subjects. Link: Application Form (http://www.gapan.ultradedicated.com/ruth-documents/scholarships/FI%20Helicopter%202010.pdf)

trust me when I say I know there are some very eligible very worthy people applying.Trust me when I say I know every application is carefully and anxiously considered by an experienced selection panel at every stage, from drawing up a short-list of those applicants who will proceed to the interview stage through to the final selection after all the interviews have been completed.
Did you get through to the interview stage?

I am a GAPAN member, I think it would be a good idea to voice my concerns on the inside. However, if this is how badly my concerns are to be received then I'm pretty sure they will fall on deaf ears.
If you're a member then I'm surprised you asked your question here instead of directly to those who make the decisions.
I’m a Warden of GAPAN. I've never been involved in the selection process but if you send me an email I'll personally ensure you receive a response to your concerns.
Or, if you're attending the Trophies & Awards Banquet later this month, I'd be happy to introduce you to the Chairman of the Scholarhips Committee so that you can discuss your concerns directly with him.

.

[Flying Lawyer]

Dennis

GAPAN’s Rotary Scholarship is for a Flight Instructor Rating - not a PPL - so applicants must have the requisite qualifications to do the course.

Just out of curiosity, why do you rule out applicants who have “airline pilots for Dads or similar”? :confused:
Not all ‘airline pilots or similar’ are high earners who can afford to fund their youngster’s ambition to gain a PPL(H).

somewhere in the UK there is a youngster perhaps in his bedroom which will be decorated with aviation pictures and hopefully helicopters, who has the interest, aviation devotion, determination and motivation to qualify for a civvy licence, but in financial terms has less than a cat in hell's chance of doing so. It gives me considerable comfort to write that around this time next year, this same youngster will be a qualified helicopter pilot. So, like GAPAN, financial need is not your only consideration.
You also look (rightly IMHO) for evidence of “devotion, determination and motivation”.

Long time no speak. Hope you’re well.
Tudor

___________________________


John Eacott hence no PPL(H) Scholarships
Of course, now that the number of helicopter pilot members is increasing perhaps one of our more affluent rotary Liverymen might be minded to set up a PPL(H) scholarship to mark a distinguished and very successful career.
The John Eacott Helicopter Scholarship?
Sounds good. ;)

.

[paco]

just because a recipient has an established career does not mean that he or she is able to finance themselves into an Instructor Rating

Hear Hear. Even applied myself a few years ago! Last year's winner happens also to be one of our ground instructors, who was recommended as he went through his course with us by our senior POF instructor. And what a good choice it was. The industry needs dedicated instructors, as opposed to those just building hours, and this is where I feel the emphasis should be.

Flying Lawyer - we've been discussing here the idea of a scholarship with our courses for some time, as Dennis has had the offer of PPL stuff from me for years now. It's about time it was made more formal. We will undertake to offer 1 CPL(H) course per year to somebody who needs a leg up - no flying, just the TK course. If GAPAN wants to get involved, that's fine.

Future applicants - please do not PM me right now - I'm up to my ears in NPA 25, but there will be a formal announcement in the near future.

Phil

[Rotorthruster]

It seems to me that people are making way more assumptions about me than I am about any other applicant for the scholarship.

People are saying that it should go to someone who is going to be a good instructor and not just use it for hours building. Why do you assume that someone with real financial constraints would just want to instruct in order to hours build?

Also I agree that it should go to someone who really wants to instruct and who wants to be a an excellent knowledgeable instructor, who has real desire but again why assume that that couldn't be someone who also can't afford it?

I think people are misunderstanding me. Of course the scholarship should be awarded to someone who will make a good instructor, who wants to instruct, wants to inspire good and safe flying techniques, who has a deep desire for flying, who meets all the prerequisites for the course and the scholarship. I took that for granted. I just think with all that in mind it should then come down to financial need.JUST MY OPINION!!!

Do you really believe that someone who already has an instructor rating and is working as an instructor needs the FI rating MORE THAN somone desperately trying to start his/her career but can't, as I have said, purely due to the lack of money and not due to lack of effort, knowledge, desire?
how can that be the case?

[hands_on123]

I must say I was also surprised to hear the FI one had gone to some who was already an FAA FI

One thought on the Denis Kenyon scholarship... if 2 out of the 3 previous winners are not going to take their PPL(H) any further, what was the point of the scholarship? Would a CPL scholarhsip be more appropriate?

I guess it's difficult to choose people for these awards, but the danger is the people who end up winning are the people who are good at interviews and who are good at public speaking/presenting, and who are already "all-round high achieving" types.

[heliboy999]

Just like to put my pennith in on this one.

I won the GAPAN FI Scholarship a few years ago and I too had a FAA CFI certificate but my story is that I went out to the States to obtain my PPL (H) and instead of just buzzing about building the hours and going from Airfield to airfield I decided to make those hours count for something. I did the FAA CPL (H) and also the FAA CFI at the same time because I wanted every single hour to be a learning hour and a real experience hour. I managed to do 155 hours in 10 weeks and then came back to the uk to continue studying for the JAR ground exams. I flew on average 1 hour a month whilst completing the JAR ATPL (H) exams and then passed the JAR CPL (H) in 2007. I had zero funds left and no intention of going to the states to teach. When I went to the GAPAN interviews I had the required Hours (Just) and the CPL qualifications needed to start the FI course and demonstrated to the panel that I had the skills to pass the course, the intention to teach here in the UK and didnt want to simply hour build and bugger off to the North sea.
I can say that as of now I have well over 500 hours of teaching under my belt and there are a few extra Helicopter pilots ot there because of me and the GAPAN scholarship that allowed me to gain the FI. I would not have been able to have done it otherwise. I was skint after my CPL and I am still skint now but at least I am teaching!!! :0)
I send many of my Air cadets to the GAPAN website to apply for the fixed wing PPL scholarship and I wished that they were able to give a Scholarship for a helicopter PPL but what they do give now is amazing anyway.
They give this every year and they dont have that many applicants and have to choose the best candidate at the time based on the best chance of passing the course. How people got there is irrelevent. Some people are lucky and some just have to work hard.

If I hadnt have ticked the box for Hayfever 22 years ago I might now be retiring from the RAF with Medals and pension but instead ive Got a great load of memories and a CPL (H) FI and a big overdraft! lol

[Bronx]

RotorthrusterDo you really believe that someone who already has an instructor rating and is working as an instructor needs the FI rating MORE THAN somone desperately trying to start his/her career but can't, as I have said, purely due to the lack of money and not due to lack of effort, knowledge, desire?

Do you really believe someone who already has demonstrated they are truly motivated and determined by actually doing something for themselves towards achieving their ambition should lose out?

Two Brits both want to be professional pilots in England.
They ain’t got rich parents. They’ve both got jobs but they don’t earn big bucks. Neither of them have got the money to do the FI course in England.
A goes flying when he can and hopes one day, somehow, he’ll get to be a professional pilot. If only he had enough money he could do it. Life ain’t fair.
B starts saving every penny he can. When he’s saved up enough money he quits his job and comes to America and gets qualified as an FI for less than it costs at home. He stays on working at the flight school for a few months. He only gets paid peanuts, enough to pay for a room and food, but he’s flying most days and building up his experience and hours. He don’t want to stay in America for ever, all his family and friends are back home.

A and B both apply for the GAPAN scholarship.
A and B both say they'd like to be professional pilots.
Which one has demonstrated not just a desire but a serious ambition to do it?

.

[hands_on123]

Maybe A couldn't up sticks and move his entire life/wife/kids to another continent for 2 years

Maybe A wanted to stay connected to the UK flight industry and support it by not spending his money abroad.

[Bravo73]

Rotorthruster,

I still understand where you are coming from. But I think that you are still confused over exactly what a scholarship entails. It isn't a bursary or charity; ie it is not there just for the 'needy'. It is intended to be awarded to the strongest candidate, regardless of background.



hands_on123,

One thought on the Denis Kenyon scholarship... if 2 out of the 3 previous winners are not going to take their PPL(H) any further, what was the point of the scholarship? Would a CPL scholarhsip be more appropriate?

FYI, but it is my understanding that the PPL scholarship winner who works at AgustaWestland is planning on progressing to CPL(H) at some point in the near(ish) future. I've no idea what the FISO at Fairoaks is planning to do but that is potentially 3 out of 3 who intended to take their licences to a commercial level.

I guess it's difficult to choose people for these awards, but the danger is the people who end up winning are the people who are good at interviews and who are good at public speaking/presenting, and who are already "all-round high achieving" types.

And why exactly is that a 'danger'? :confused:

The board are looking for people who can demonstrate a commitment to aviation and, just importantly, who can demonstrate the attributes and abilities that are necessary to instruct. These are all elements that can often be demonstrated by "people who are good at interviews and who are good at public speaking/presenting, and who are already "all-round high achieving" types".

[hands_on123]

Bravo73, yes, of course you are completely right, as usual.

[DennisK]

A big thanks for the various views offered and may I add something further.

Yes ... I totally accept that a GAPAN 'further training' award SHOULD go to the strongest candidate regardless of finance, but just to note that for the Dennis Kenyon Junior scholarship, my original and very personal view was that our award would be made following a shortlist and interview and then decided on purely financial and personal grounds. I'd have to say that having listened to the various views here and less recently from other aviation colleagues, I am coming to the conclusion that our scholarship committee might well be asked to take a different view during the selection process.

The problem is of course finance and in earlier years and with significant support from several sponsors, I have been able to secure the £12,000 to £15,000 each year to partly cover the private rotary licence, but as much as I would wish to do so, trying for the £50k plus CPL(H) cost has been absolutely out of the question.

I need to thank PACO for his kind offer of support and since funding has become so much more difficult, perhaps we can talk again ... and if there are any suggestions out there as to where we might take the DK scholarship, I'm listening.

In semi-retirement, I want to keep our scholarship going and am hoping a major sponsor who could easiy cover the full PPL cost, will become involved.
As an example, I've been looking at the possibility of a 'Helicopter X factor' style competition, hoping for a 'nod' from Mr SC such that the whole selection process, short-listed interviews, presentations, and flying aptitude tests could be conducted over a single 'boot camp' weekend. I have an offer of a suitable hangar at Shoreham for the chosen weekend, I just need 50 hours of helicopter time and an offer of fuel and landing fees, I have several offers from FIs. Perhaps the idea would attract a TV company?

Finally, to respond to others. Thanks Redwolf, it is good to read you are making progress. And for 'Hands-On' ... just to confirm our three award winners ARE working in the industry with plans to progress. And for my dear and highly respected friend FL ... the DK scholarship selection committee have previously ruled out existing licence holders ... say airline pilots since .... even at the lower end of their known salary scales, incomes are invariably miles ahead of those of our candidates. In view of what is being written here, I feel that situation should be reviewed as above.

On a personal basis FL, I guess I am keeping a lower profile since I'm still smarting and embarassed by my SLC lapse and find it difficult to go public on the safety issues now.

Safe and fun flying to all. Dennis Kenyon.

[hands_on123]

I have been able to secure the £12,000 to £15,000 each year to partly cover the private rotary licence, but as much as I would wish to do so, trying for the £50k plus CPL(H) cost has been absolutely out of the question.


A PPL course is 45 hours, a CPL 35 hours, so a CPL Sponsorship should be cheaper.

[Pandalet]

Hands on123 A PPL course is 45 hours, a CPL 35 hours, so a CPL Sponsorship should be cheaper.
That would depend on whether you're looking at zero-to-CPL or a candidate who already meets all the pre-requisites of the CPL course (including ground school), and just needs to do the 35 hours + test. Given DK's target market, I'm guessing it would be more realistic to expect to have to fund candidates from zero to CPL.