View Full Version : Who is flying this AF aircraft?
Nicholas49
2nd Oct 2010, 19:02
I just watched this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8a6qbF9ECg) video of an AF B777 take-off from the flight deck.
It appears that the F/O is PF at the start of the take-off (his hand is on the throttles), but then hands over control to the captain while on the take-off roll saying "it's ready", presumably when power is set. But then the captain, now PF, raises the gear himself.
Is this standard SOP at AF? It's a bit unusual, isn't it? Surely there are a couple of seconds where neither of them has complete control.
TopBunk
2nd Oct 2010, 20:16
I don't know Air France SOP's, but it would seem as if the FO is flying the aircraft, but the captain handles the thrust levers and as PNF raises the landing gear.
The thrust lever handling could be because only the captain can initiate an aborted take off or because that is the way they do it - ie PNF has thrust lever control.
SloppyJoe
2nd Oct 2010, 20:28
Yeah is pretty normal for the captain to have his hands on the thrust levers for every take off whilst PF or PM as he is the one who would initiate a stop, he removes his hand at V1 as that is when they would not stop. The FO is the PF on this take off. Where I work it is slightly different but same idea, once lined up the FO if PF says set thrust at which point the captain sets the thrust, if the captain is PF he calls set thrust and then sets the thrust himself/herself. A high speed stop is a dangerous thing to do and so it makes sense that the one with command and usually the most experience will make that call, it also reduces the time to stop as the captain does not have to say stop and wait for the FO to initiate, he just closes the thrust levers and max brakes and spoilers are automatic.
Nicholas49
2nd Oct 2010, 20:29
TopBunk - I've just watched this again. You are right: the F/O is PF as he has his hands on the yoke and he pulls back at Vr.
Is it unusual that the PF does not control the thrust? I understand the rationale behind the captain being the only one to initiate an RTO, but doesn't the PF need full control - power and directional - on take-off? Are there other airlines that do it like this?
P.S. Out of interest, what is he (captain) adjusting on the MCP when he takes control?
SloppyJoe
2nd Oct 2010, 20:39
Dont really need control of thrust for the take off as once thrust is set you don't adjust it until you get to 1500ft usually, at which point the FO in this scenario would then have full control of the thrust and reduce it to climb thrust. Hard to see from the camera angle but i would place a wager on the captain also having his hand on the yolk although would not be manipulating it, FO would be doing the same if captain was PF.
He is changing what is displayed on the lower EICAS display, looks like it goes from the taxi camera to something else as you can see it changing colour.
but i would place a wager on the captain also having his hand on the yolk although would not be manipulating it, FO would be doing the same if captain was PF.
NOT in any airline I've worked for, they wouldn't.
SloppyJoe
3rd Oct 2010, 00:02
maybe just an airbus thing.
kharmael
3rd Oct 2010, 10:02
Surely once the FO set Takeoff Power the Captain as PNF would have his hand on/ near the nosewheel steering and the power levers in order to facilitate an abort, relaxing slightly as the FO takes control once he has rudder authority?
The FO as PF would have his hands on the yoke to keep the wings level and subsequently rotate.
Nicholas49
3rd Oct 2010, 12:13
maybe just an airbus thing.
Or maybe just a 411A thing. :)
Looks like a normal 777 takeoff to me, albeit with the Captain guarding the throttles in case of the need for a rejected take-off - presumably AF SOPS?
Dont really need control of thrust for the take off as once thrust is set you don't adjust it until you get to 1500ft usually, at which point the FO in this scenario would then have full control of the thrust and reduce it to climb thrust.
To be clear you shouldn't need to manually control the thrust via the thrust levers at all on a 777 ( or any of Boeings other more modern products), if the autothrottle is working and programmed properly. Dependant on SOPs/airmanship you might "guard" the thrust levers with your hand.
Edited to add: No it's not just a "411A thing", I can't think of many if any occasions where as a F/O or a Captain I'd be happy with the PNF "following through" on the the yoke.
Nicholas49
3rd Oct 2010, 16:19
Thanks, wiggy.
I think what 411A meant was that while the captain will guard the yoke on an F/O take-off, the F/O does not do so for a captain's take-off, in his airlines at least. I stand to be corrected if that's not what he meant.
Can I just ask: what is the captain adjusting on the MCP when he takes over the throttle?
Neptunus Rex
3rd Oct 2010, 17:20
This "ghosting" on the controls is pure nonsense. Any Captain worth his salt should be able to take control from hands in his lap, if necessary, in a nanosecond. Ghosting on the yoke (not 'yolk,' which could leave you with egg on your face) is a sign of gross underconfidence on the part of the Captain. Let a good FO go. If he gets it wrong, the Captain can take control before things really turn to worms.
Been there, done that, and seen the FOs turn out to be really good Captains.
Shell Management
3rd Oct 2010, 17:49
NR that is a stupid position to take.
Sorry Shell but you were so abrupt I'm not sure what your point is - are you of the opinion that the Captain should be following through at all times the co-pilot is handling, and if so is that what you do?
Nicholas49
4th Oct 2010, 19:49
1. For the uninitiated, can I ask what "following through" means? Is this the same as "ghosting", i.e. resting your hands on the control column but not making any input. If so, is it not safer to have your hands there ready to take over in a split-second? Or is that not the "done thing" (cramping the F/O's style etc.)?
2. Separate point: what happens if the captain does move the control column? Would that "override" the F/O's controls?
3. Can I just ask: what is the captain adjusting on the MCP when he takes over the throttle? Anyone..........?
kharmael
6th Oct 2010, 08:46
1) Yes it does mean the same thing. It's generally used when the pilot flying is making some sort of input which requires a finesse of some variety, like on a non computer regulated throttle (laymans term for FADEC ;) ) the monitoring pilot would follow the handling pilots movements on the power levers to avoid over torquing the engines when setting full power.
2) They are connected together, so it's down to who's stronger. Having said that, the handling pilot wound't be using much force to fly so any override would be easy to make.
3) MCP = Maximum Continuous Power. When taking off the power levers are set to TakeOff Power, which is the very highest output from the engines. MCP is the highest output that is suitable for continuous use, usually achieved by moving the power levers backwards over a small detent.
HTH
Can I just ask: what is the captain adjusting on the MCP when he takes over the throttle?
Ah, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...all these TLAs :hmm: can get a tad confusing...do we mean MCP or MCP :E
As far as I can see the AF captain doesn't touch the Mode Control Panel (MCP) at all during the take-off roll, but he does touch the Display Select Panel (aka DSP), which sits to the right of the MCP. The external camera view can be seen displayed on the lower Multi Function Display during line up, and the Captain reaches across to deselect it (as Sloppy Joe posted if you look carefully you can see the lower display go blank).
At various times after takeoff the Captain does make selections on the EFIS controls on the outboard end of the Glareshield Panel (associated with controlling both his and the co-pilot's Nav. Displays) but the only time in the whole video where the Captain touches the MCP itself is at around 2:00, when touches the LNAV selector after making a "direct to" selection on his Control and Display Unit. In reality it looks like LNAV is already engaged, so he's probably simply reinforcing or confirming that fact with the co-pilot.
MCP is the highest output that is suitable for continuous use, usually achieved by moving the power levers backwards over a small detent.
MCP as in "Max Continous Power" - on a Boeing 777 there are easier ways of achieving "CON" than pulling the "power" levers backwards and you certainly wouldn't find a detent - sounds like an "Airbus thing"..and they have a whole range of different TLAs anyway....:} :}
Hope that helps :8
Edited to add: Guide to the 777 Glareshield panel, sadly without the camera button, and the associated terminology here:
777 Flight Deck GlareShield Panel (http://www.meriweather.com/777/glare-777.html)
kharmael
7th Oct 2010, 06:52
:sad: Should've just kept schtum and let the Boeing fellow give the factually correct info instead of my half-arsed guess! :ok:
To be honest I've jumpseated on Airbus Flight Decks a few times and still haven't a clue what those power lever thingies do.... anyhow there's sure to be an 'bus question along in a minute...:ok:
Nicholas49
7th Oct 2010, 13:50
Thanks wiggy! And apologies to Sloppy Joe for overlooking his earlier answer.
Yes, having re-watched the video, I can see that he is switching off the external camera view. Is this camera used to help line up the aircraft on the centreline?
Both pilots call out "110" on the roll. Is that an AF SOP? I thought that "80 knots" was more common? Please tell me it's not because the French use km/h! (Joke)
Learnt a lot from this thread - thanks to all.
Is this camera used to help line up the aircraft on the centreline?
It's designed as an aid to make sure you don't run the mainwheels off the concrete and onto the grass when negotiating tight turns on narrow taxiways, not normally a problem on line up given the width of a standard runway.
Can't comment on the calls.