See you at the bottom [Archive]

Aerodynamisist

1st Oct 2010, 23:27

"incentive driven renumeration" sounds like the deal I'm on the boss pays me above award and conditions - thats my incentive. In return I turn up fly and try not to break his aircraft.

Realistically it's a start for someone to get into floats. all the research I did years ago when looking into floats were no insurance till you get a few hundred water landings and you have to be a bit of a boaty as well as a good aviator. In this instance you would have to make sure it's not an ongoing rip off and get something in writing to say that once you have xx number of water landings or after 3 months there would be a retainer and or casual/full time dollars as per the award. At the end of the day if you can't pay your employee's properly there is something seriously wrong with your business plan.

SeldomFixit

2nd Oct 2010, 01:43

Just curious - betting London to a brick that some miscreant will actually pay for this gig, how many Engineers work for free ?
How many ATCO's work for free ?
What is it about Pilots - please spare me the love of flying b/s, just explain why a certain group will eat their own young and then spend a lifetime justifying it.
Incoming :sad:

remoak

2nd Oct 2010, 06:20

Yeah I don't get it either. Spend a hundred grand getting all the quals, fly for dodgy/shonky operators for years while gaining precious hours and getting paid peanuts, finally worm your way into a regional and get treated like doggy doo for a few years, get your command... now you are probably down half a million bucks over your mates who all became accountants... finally achieve the holy grail and start serving your serious airline time as a cruise F/0 or something while still being paid, well not peanuts, more like salted almonds.

About now you realise that quality of life and lifestyle are way more important than monitoring a computer for 13 hours... now all you want is an easy roster and less flying... eventually you would kill for a few weeks at home playing with the kids, who now don't recognise their father anyway... and now you couldn't care less if you never saw an aircraft ever again, if you could only stop feeling exhausted all the time and permanently jet-lagged...

May not be everybody's experience, however enough of my ex-colleagues found it to be so for them, which is why I never went long haul. Just not worth it IMHO... although the money can be good at the top of the tree...

And now you realise that flying for nothing, in order to get something that you end up not wanting anyway, isn't such a bargain!

Orion Delta

2nd Oct 2010, 09:19

Maybe time to get out of the industry Remoak ? ...

remoak

2nd Oct 2010, 09:41

No... the key is to engineer yourself a career that suits your needs, which I have - flying in a place I want to fly, flying types I enjoy. All I'm saying is that far too many people follow the yellow brick road and find that at the end, it isn't what they thought it was.

I'd rather have a fulfilling, enjoyable career, living where I want to and see my kids grow up, than always be trying to fly the next bigger type etc. The downside is that you don't earn the top salaries, or have as good skiting opportunities... :}

I am very, very glad that I didn't do some of the PTF opportunities that were around when I was doing my licences. Turned out it wasn't necessary in the long run.

weloveseaplanes

2nd Oct 2010, 10:05

Wonder what Charles Kingsford Smith, Gordon P. Taylor, Saburo Sakai, Sir Francis Chichester, Billy Mitchell, Fred Ladd, Adolf Galland, Robert Munro, Jimmy Doolittle, Adrian Mark, Chuck Yeager . . .

. . . thousands of nameless heroes who on the smell of an oily rag have built their own homebuilt wonders and taken family, friends and neighbours for flights . . .

. . . and all the other pilots who never made a fortune but blazed trails through the seas and skies that can still be seen to this day would think of all this negativity? :cool:

Grow up guys!

Here's hoping the kid who gets a start with one of these crowds will end up in that ever decreasing group of men who think of themselves as aviators, men whose eyes shine with the glory and gratitude for the fleeting chance of being able to soar with angels, rather than the group of complaining and whiny half-men who equate the magic of flying as a job and think of themselves as pilots.

Pilots = half men who talk about pay, conditions, seniority, contracts, and whose gloom brings down others. :yuk:

Aviators = men who talk about
flight,
flying,
flyers,
and whose passion lights the fires in the hearts of others. :ok:

Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.
— G. K. Chesteron, 'Orthodoxy,' 1908.

romeocharlie

2nd Oct 2010, 10:21

I'm sorry but why can't we complain about ads like this?

The reason that so many of us feel so passionately about this ad is because we too were asked to run someone else's business for them/do 65 other non-flying related jobs with a bit of flying on the side while being paid fairly average wages in the hope of getting the hours to make it to a job that pays well enough to afford a beer at the end of the day.

As for doing something about it? Well..... Do you want a job or not?

Notwithstanding - I did have a good laugh at this ad :}:yuk:

eocvictim

2nd Oct 2010, 10:31

I'm sorry I thought this was a Professional Pilots forum? You know, those who fly for a JOB? Those who fly for pay, for food, for a CAREER?

Dreams and stars in your eyes wont put your kids through school.

Thank you so much "weloveseaplanes" for cheapening my career choice. Thank you so much for opening my eyes and showing me that I don't deserve a brass razoo. Because I'm so lucky that I get to FLY for a living... well not a living but I get to do it and not pay someone for the pleasure!

Alternatively I could do another job where I'm paid for my qualifications and experience; then pay for flying and come out on top because that's what you're saying isn't it? Why should someone expect to be paid for what others see as lofty amazingly unique experience. Something that's so special and entertaining that one should be happy just with the fortune of experiencing it.

Hey while we're jumping on the tall poppy bandwagon, lets hack Tiger Woods down to size, I enjoy golf why should he get paid? Thats not fair. What about Brad Pitt? I would LOVE to be in a movie, I did a bit of drama when I was kid, acting is fun; he should just be happy with being famous! He certainly doesn't deserve a dime!

While we're being idiotic about peoples lives and careers, here's a nice single piece white suit with the v cut down the middle; there's your drab white econo box car, here's your assigned job and you can expect your universally standard salary in the mail. If you need any help call the Kremlin and ask them when communism took over the world.

weloveseaplanes

2nd Oct 2010, 11:05

Mr. ...victim(?)

. . . "I thought this was a Professional Pilots forum?"
Yes it is ~ all sorts of flyers welcome.

. . . "Dreams and stars in your eyes wont put your kids through school."
Family love and governmental assistance will. Worked for mine.

. . . "cheapening my career choice."
No need to thank me,I'm not cheapening it at all, am on the contray trying to move away from this obession people have on PPRUNE to complain about pay all the time. You're cheapening it if the value you derive from flying is financial.

. . . "I don't deserve a brass razoo."
Never said that.

. . . "I'm so lucky that I get to FLY"
Yup. Surely you can feel it?

. . . "that's what you're saying isn't it?"
Nope. Am saying 'wonder what (insert list of famous aviators)would think of all this (=your) negativity.'

. . . "Why should someone expect to be paid for what others see as lofty amazingly unique experience."
I hope each time you arise and alight you too see it as a lofty amazingly unique experience ~ it'll help you, and those you meet, feel better.

. . . "why should he (Tiger) get paid?"
Don't particularly think he should especially as he wastes it on hookers.

. . . "What about Brad Pitt?"
Think he's great for adopting so many children from third world countries and donating so much money to children's charities.

. . . "I would LOVE to be in a movie"
Now you're talking - look at that you even used the word love and in capital letters no less! First time the sunshine of positiveness shone through that dark cloud. That's the spirit. It sounds like you had perhaps subconsciously wished you had followed the actors path instead of being one of those, "You know, those who fly for a JOB?"

In your second paragrapher you used the phrase "stars in your eyes" and later on you also said "acting is fun". Certainly sounds like one pilot's subconscious is trying to lead them back to their true calling :-)

Have you considered discussing with your family your childhood dream of becoming an actor, (drama did you say?), and perhaps giving it a go, after all God give us only two things - life and the will to follow our dream.

The Wawa Zone

2nd Oct 2010, 11:30

Weloveseaplanes, each of those names you mentioned would probably tell the author of this ad (you ?) to stick the job up their ar_se.

The more entrepreneurial names from aviation history would offer the employer a deal of their own, and wave goodbye if it got knocked back.

X

Runaway Gun

2nd Oct 2010, 11:53

Maybe we should all apply for this position, and whoever gets it then phone up on the first day and say that they couldn't turn up due to:

• the cost of petrol to drive to work
• couldn't afford to buy lunch
• was offered a better gig at McDonalds

After the first three failed attempts they should get the message.

weloveseaplanes

2nd Oct 2010, 12:12

havick -

"you wouldn't be able to mooch off govt handouts that you freely admit to pocketing.. maybe a reality check is in order."

Your certainly right about the need for a reality check. Never mentioned 'mooching off.' Never mentioned 'pocketing.'

It was mum who received the governmental assistance for my education after the death of my father who was an aviator in the true meaning of the word. It helped our family a lot. Mum was flat out with volunteer work herself helping others less fortunate. I've since been able to make it by myself and when the flying jobs couldn't pay enough would simply get other jobs. Never forgotten how important it is to volunteer either.

A bit of hard work never hurt anyone as much as listening to groups of people complain about how unfair and underpaid being a flyer is.

Great to hear that you're on 6 figures. The world sure can do with your generosity. Should you again be in the position to negotiate for higher pay, perhaps you and your employer could set up a joint charity fund to help others struggling in your community?

Arnold E

2nd Oct 2010, 12:12

but the six figure pay packet that goes with it makes it worthwhile...
Far out, count me in.:ok:

eocvictim

2nd Oct 2010, 12:33

Now I shouldn't bother but...

"Dreams and stars in your eyes wont put your kids through school."
Family love and governmental assistance will. Worked for mine.
People who bring children into this world under those circumstances should be committed. Why would you put children through that?

. . . "cheapening my career choice."
No need to thank me,I'm not cheapening it at all, am on the contray trying to move away from this obession people have on PPRUNE to complain about pay all the time. You're cheapening it if the value you derive from flying is financial.
How can I enjoy the former if I cant survive without the latter?

. . . "I don't deserve a brass razoo."
Never said that.
Read above.

. . . "I'm so lucky that I get to FLY"
Yup. Surely you can feel it?
No. Physics and an eduction. (or should we praise the lord for the mystical marvel of this gravity defying act?)

. . . "that's what you're saying isn't it?"
Nope. Am saying 'wonder what (insert list of famous aviators)would think of all this (=your) negativity.'
I'm sure they'd be appalled of other young aviators being exploited after they worked so hard to develop the industry into what it was.

. . . "Why should someone expect to be paid for what others see as lofty amazingly unique experience."
I hope each time you arise and alight you too see it as a lofty amazingly unique experience ~ it'll help you, and those you meet, feel better.
At $99 a seat to Sydney its hardly unique :ok:

. . . "What about Brad Pitt?"
Think he's great for adopting so many children from third world countries and donating so much money to children's charities.
Taking them away from those who cant afford to look after them? Perhaps those who choose to take hand outs so they can pursue a hobby over meeting their life commitments?

Have you considered discussing with your family your childhood dream of becoming an actor, (drama did you say?), and perhaps giving it a go, after all God give us only two things - life and the will to follow our dream.

I followed my dream attained all my goals and now thinking about a family realise that in order to provide for them I need to get paid something more tangible than fluffy feelings.

Or should I apologise for expecting to be paid for the service I provide? :hmm:

Arnold E

2nd Oct 2010, 12:55

Or should I apologise for expecting to be paid for the service I provide? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif
Hmmmm, guess it depends on how much you expect

das Uber Soldat

2nd Oct 2010, 12:56

Ill pretend its not a wind-up.

weloveseaplanes (http://www.pprune.org/members/244476-weloveseaplanes), your attitude is disgusting. Flying is a job. Its a fun job, but at the end of the day I want a return on my training investment. That was real money and I didn't spend it for nothing. I certainly didn't spend it for an employer to tell me that I owed him for the privilege of working for nothing. That my return is the love of flying or some such bull****.

For an employer to think that somehow his employees 'owe' him for the 'privilege' of working is shameful.

If your business is unable to operate whilst paying your employees a proper wage, then its not a viable business and it shouldn't exist. 'Serving your time' is just bull**** made up by dodgy owners to try to create a culture of acceptance amongst pilots of below award conditions.

Some of them have been playing this card so long they have actually started to believe it. You sound like one of them.

:rolleyes:

weloveseaplanes

2nd Oct 2010, 12:59

"Actually, I think a new sports car or another investment property is on the cards.."

Yeah I think you're probably right there. A new sports car or another investment property sounds much more likely. Enjoy :-)

The Green Goblin

2nd Oct 2010, 13:12

You sound like a MAF Pilot WLSP :cool:

j3pipercub

2nd Oct 2010, 13:18

weloveseaplanes,

This one's for you, it reminds me of you:

http://www.etoolsnow.com/images/custompages/0d419554-40440a137011GIANT%20WRIGHT%20WRENCH.jpg

A GI-NORMOUS TOOL!

Furthermore...nah, it's not worth it. Someone with as warped a mind as yours will never see sense, have fun slipping the surly bonds and living on food stamps.

j3

weloveseaplanes

2nd Oct 2010, 13:22

Dear Super Soldier das Uber Soldat -

"weloveseaplanes, your attitude is disgusting"

Well don't hold back there my man. Give it to me straight.

"Flying is a job."
Nope flying is what birds, angels and aviators do. Piloting is a job.

". . . an employer to tell me that I owed him for the privilege of working for nothing."

Your twisting my question and running off into your own forest of fears about evil employers. You obviously missed the question the first time round. Your welcome to look back up at post 18 for yourself. Read the question dude. (The question is the sentence that ends in one of these '?' )

Now The Wawa Zone, although mistakingly hinting that I might have placed the ad was able to answer the question with an answer I didn't agree with "each of those names you mentioned would probably tell the author of this ad (you ?) to stick the job up their ar_se."

Perhaps he's a good role model for you?

I'm sure you can afford a chill pill and now's as good a time to take one as any.

Relax and enjoy the beauty of flight. Man has dreamed of it for millennia and you and I can achieve it.

Is it so hard to believe that some of us pilots so love flying?

weloveseaplanes

2nd Oct 2010, 13:27

das Uber Soldat

2nd Oct 2010, 13:32

Keep trolling mate.

:ugh:

Fat_Bulldog

2nd Oct 2010, 13:47

If there was a MAF pilot for every airline pilot the world would be a much nicer place.

You crack me up! I've flown to Gove a couple of times, and the only time in my career has someone pushed in not once but twice, was a MAF pilot! :ugh:

ResumeOwnNav

2nd Oct 2010, 14:05

Funny, it was a MAFia C206 that refused to extend his downwind to facilitate the arrival of a Med 1 Kingair the other day. Interesting words followed on the CTAF.

Cutter796

3rd Oct 2010, 01:18

The reason I began this post was to highlight just how acceptable it is for employers to now ADVERTISE without remorse just how far they expect you to drop your trousers.

The hope was to get some unity happening amongst us so that maybe, one day, we will ALL stand up and say no to this bs. Together United we won't be defeated but can't see everyone on the same page and this is why this **** continues.

It is the likes of "weloveflyingseaplanesondrugs" that will always give employers the opportunity to cry poor and offer peasant wages because of some accepted notion that all we want to do is live the dream and fly their aircraft for nothing. It is the dream that got us here seaplaneman, hard to continue the dream on fresh air. Please pm me with your drug supplier so I can get onto the same page as you.

As for the family seaplane man, all is good. The centrelink check just arrived at home so the Mrs can get some food for the kids. I am doing ok aswell, especially knowing you are there to give me a hug, smack me on the arse and remind me how lucky I am to be in sky living the dream.

Dragun

3rd Oct 2010, 01:21

Weloveseaplanes

Pilots aren't allowed to do drugs. Obviously there are different rules for aviators.

Buddha, God, Allah, Perseus or whoever must all be very displeased.

Off to poke my head in the clouds, much like yours.

The Green Goblin

3rd Oct 2010, 02:02

Green Goblin -

"You sound like a MAF Pilot WLSP"

That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me on this post - thanks!

If there was a MAF pilot for every airline pilot the world would be a much nicer place.

If flyers dreamed of how they could use aviation to help the less fortunate rather than how they can use it to help themselves . . .

Obviously you have not had to deal with them......

MAF join cross wind as Metro joins 5 mile final with a call asking them to extend downwind to facilitate, Metro calls three mile final, MAF calls turning final and have right of way, Metro goes round.........:ugh:

puff

3rd Oct 2010, 02:52

All Australian Airlines Australia/NZ/Singapore/Vietnam/South Pacific/Antartica/Afghanistan bases
Casual Line Pilot

The candidate MUST have experience or natural ability in Sales, aircraft cleaning(internal and external), baggage handling, engineering, IT, Accounting and customer service
Remuneration is Incentive driven - flight 100% full, every single flight for the week in your region u get paid a generous retainer of the % of beers sold onboard sold before 8am on Monday mornings.
Must be available immediately.
Must be prepared for training/ICUS - discounted endorsements available at $100,000, multiple endorsements required, 2% discount available on 2nd Endorsement.
Training will be at the cost of the candidate.
Must be willing to relocate to all the above bases, up to twice a year at your own expense.
Must have a genuine love of aviating, being a pilot and picking up ladies in the bar in your uniform(available at own expense)
1 year contract terms - renewal available for $5000 annually
Holidays available subject to business needs - generous no work no pay scheme.
Payroll deductions available for, ASIC cards, carparking, taxis, overnight hotels,uniforms, meals, water, toilet usage.

Before too long the love of 'aviating' will bring us to this !! weloveseaplanes will be there with bells on ! You 'currently' get paid to 'aviate' - what a world !

JohnnyK

3rd Oct 2010, 03:13

WLSP,

I really dont want to go at you arguing quote for quote because you appear to have mistaken yourself for the Dalai Lama. You also seem to have stirred up some strong emotions from a number of otherwise well balanced, reasonable posters.Perhaps it is because you are less the Dalai Lama but more a saccharine spouting, sanctimonious fool living in a dream world where people work for free and are grateful for the priviledge and you may call them optimists.

weloveseaplanes

3rd Oct 2010, 06:36

Cutter glad to hear all is good. Not so keen on giving guys hugs or smacks on the arse as it sounds like you want, but if that's what you need maybe we could put the word out for you?

Did you also mention you're looking for a drug supplier to help you through tough times in your aviation career? Don't do drugs so can't help there.

Classic aviation books help inspire though. Books on or by Richard Bach, Charles Kingsford Smith, Gordon P. Taylor, Saburo Sakai, Sir Francis Chichester, Billy Mitchell, Fred Ladd, Adolf Galland, Robert Munro, Jimmy Doolittle, Adrian Mark, Chuck Yeager, Ernest Gant, P G Taylor, Adolf Galland, and most any books on the poetry of flight always help one feel grateful they too can fly and share in the enjoyment and challenges of the sky.

j3pipercub

3rd Oct 2010, 06:43

GANN, ERNEST K GANN, you tard

j3

The Green Goblin

3rd Oct 2010, 06:54

You forgot the biggest Aussie scoundrel and a book that leaves Gann to shame, Clyde Fenton, the flying doctor......Gant - you lost all credibility there.

Oh and you can tell you're a relatively new Pilot, you can live off love for a couple of years (I still miss it) enjoying what you do. The pay off has to come sooner or later and the chance to be able for afford decent living conditions.

I bet you're one of these clowns that made money prior to a flying career and thought it would be a good 'sea' change. You now fly below market rate for your own love, shafting the guys that do it to create a a good lifestyle with fiscal rewards.

weloveseaplanes

3rd Oct 2010, 07:06

Wow aren't some of you a bit touchy about this division between flying = just a job (pilots) and flying = a passion (aviators).

Not once have I said a word about flying for free. However that hasn't stopped a number of you from launching attacks about perceived inequalities in pilot payment that your paranoia claims I support.

You'll remember I told you to grow up and stop whining?

The collective group paranoia of a number of negative people feeds on itself so you all jump on someone suggesting love (of flight) over hate (of salary).

Flyers used to inspire others. Now most of you just seem to feed off each others negativity.

Its just as well we're not in the village square as some of you seem ready to throw rocks at one trying to remind you to love the beauty of flight.

In Post 18
I suggested that to be men you stop complaining and whining about money all the time and talk about flight, flying and flyers and wondered what famous aviators would think of your negative attitudes. (see list of respected aviators in post 18)

In Post 21
I suggested moving away from this obsession people have on PPRuNe to complain about money all the time and, since ecovictim spoke of his acting dreams, suggest that after gaining the support of his family he pursue that path. I also mentioned he should feel lucky he can fly.

In Post 25
I corrected havick regarding his accusatory misunderstanding regarding government assistance my family received when I was a child, congratulated him for receiving 6 figures and suggest he consider sharing his wealth through a charity.

In Post 30
I wished havick enjoy his new sports car/investment property.

In Post 34
I again tried to point out the initial question I proposed in post 18 was what would Smithy (and like aviation heroes) thought of all your negativity. I also suggested that the Super Soldier take a chill pill, which appeared to work as it reduced his next message to just three words. Finally I suggested relaxing and enjoying the beauty of flight.

In Post 35
I thanked the Green Goblin for calling me a MAF pilot and dreamed for an instant a world where flying = helping rather than getting.

For the above I've been accused of

by eocvictim - (posts 20)
cheapening a career choice
telling him he doesn't deserve a brass razoo
been idoitic about peoples lives and careers
being linked to a communist conspiracy

by havick (post 23)
mooching off govt handouts
freely admit pocketing said handouts

by eocvictim (post 27)
my family should be committed for having me

by das Uber Soldat (post 30)
having a disgusting attitude

by The Green Goblin (post 32)
of sounding like a MAF pilot

by j3pipercub (posy 33)
of being a GI-NORMOUS TOOL (complete with complimentary photo)
of having a warped mind

by Cutter796
of giving employers the opportunity to cry poor and offer peasant wages
of wanting to fly aircraft for nothing

by Dragun (post 41)
of having my head in the clouds

by puff (post 43)
of bringing the world of paid flight to different standards than it is now

by JohhnyK (post 44)
of mistaking myself for the Dalai Lama
of stirred up strong responses
of being a saccharine spouting, sanctimonious fool

How proud do you think your parents would be of your comments?

As the cause of all anger is internal, rather than attacking me by calling me a fool, my ideas disgusting, that I'm instigating campaigns to bring about communism or the end of paid piloting, taking drugs etc perhaps you could consider the barriers you have in your mind to enjoying your flying?

Ixixly

3rd Oct 2010, 07:13

I'm sorry folks, but aren't we all perhaps making a lot of assumptions with this particular job ad?

I am someone who applied for it because I would really love a chance to get into Seaplanes, personally it sounds like they want someone who is going to be able to deal well with their customers, someone who can answer a phone and not only give details on what they do but actually convince the person on the other end that they really should do it!

Incentive driven renumeration? Sounds good to me, the better I do the more I get paid, only people who would luck out there are the ones who are lazy and only do a half arsed job!!

Must be prepare for Training/ICUS, fair enough, I won't be starting straight away as PIC, thats fairly standard isn't it? To check people out and have them operating the way you want them to operate before letting them run free by themselves?

And paying for the floatplane endorsement? I really don't see how thats such a terrible thing? Not to mention it doesn't mention how its paid, how much is paid etc... Perhaps you could ask them to put you on a bond of some sort thats equal to the value of the training and if your still there after a year they'll reimburse you that amount. Stops people coming in and using them as a free training organisation!!

No where does it mention i'll be required to walk the owners dog, clean their car, do their laundry or anything such thing... are we just putting a bad stereotype on this job or do others know something about this operator I don't and should be made aware of?

I'm genuinely looking for other peoples input here as yes I am a young pilot but so far as I can see this would be a good chance to get my foot in the door and start down a path I'm really interested in and I don't see how i'd be putting anyone else out as I don't suppose any really experience Floatplane Pilots would be that interested in a job such as this?

P.S. Yes I am jumping on the Weloveseaplanes isn't quite all there bandwagon :ok:

j3pipercub

3rd Oct 2010, 07:23

WLSP,

You left out tard in post #47, and my old man would be incredibly proud of me.

Ix, all the best, but beware...

Ixixly

3rd Oct 2010, 07:24

Thanks J3, don't worry, I try not to let myself get screwed over :}

weloveseaplanes

3rd Oct 2010, 07:26

Go Ixixly!

Good luck with the job, give it a crack. Freeing yourself from the officaldom of prison like airports by flying from the water will be a beautiful time in your life.

Stand up to the negative chickenlicken doomsayers as the sky's not falling down and you won't be walking the owners dog.

P.P.S. Can I am jump on the Weloveseaplanes isn't quite all there bandwagon too? (safety in numbers and all that :) )

Ixixly

3rd Oct 2010, 07:31

I never said the ads not a complete sham... I'm saying that with the little knowledge I have I can see another side that doesn't look all doom and gloom and would be interested if getting other "Informed" opinions as well!!

And no you may not get on the bandwagon...its full...find your own

Cutter796

3rd Oct 2010, 08:48

Seaplanelover
I can only hope that you are taking the piss and enjoying all the bites you are getting.
Find it hard to beleive someone could be so passionate about living off hand outs. As previously said, hard to fix this accepted practice if we are not united - you and Ix sound like you can touch your toes very well. Good luck at J*, smiley face for each of you :D:D

UnderneathTheRadar

3rd Oct 2010, 09:06

Incentive driven renumeration? Sounds good to me, the better I do the more I get paid, only people who would luck out there are the ones who are lazy and only do a half arsed job!!

So when no punters turn up for 4 weeks and you don't get any 'incentive driven renumeration' then you'd better shout louder when the bus load of backpackers arrives in town.....

As others have said, if they can't pay you award then their business model sucks....

mustman

3rd Oct 2010, 09:07

And what about the soon to retire pilot who would love to work only a couple of days a week flying a seaplane out of the gold coast?? Sounds appealing to me.

If you want full time work don't apply!

Fuel-Off

3rd Oct 2010, 09:29

Hmm...do I hear the sounds of the mods warming up their fingers to push that Close button on this thread? :bored:

Fuel-Off :ok:

das Uber Soldat

3rd Oct 2010, 10:27

The thread should be closed. The guy is either a troll or a moron, and neither are beneficial to anyone.

hugh_jorgan

3rd Oct 2010, 10:43

Back to the original post:

Surprised to see that cloud nine are looking for another low time guy. After all, the last low hour guy they had ended up on a sand bar upside down in ELQ. Thought they might have learnt a lesson out of that, obviously not. It may be a cheap way of getting a pilot but it aint the best option if history is anything to go by. You get what you pay for!

Want someone you can trust not to put your plane upside down then you have to pay the $$ via wages, getting someone that you hope wont is a lot cheaper...until you have to pay the insurance premiums and excess.

Ixixly

3rd Oct 2010, 12:47

I thought I remembered that being a bad situation for the pilot involved hugh? Hard to see pot that shouldn't have been where it was if memory serves, anyone else remember? And maybe hes just someone that likes to give us lower hour guys a go? theres very few of them still around these days it seems due to things like insurance.

Underneaththeradar, thats a fair point mate, I'd do my own research of course and ask around to find out just how much work they do get and i'd want some sort of guarantee from the employer as well, but i've yet to see anywhere that it says they'll pay under the award? Once again, thats another pretty big assumption to be making, all it says is Renumeration is incentive driven, which could quite possibly mean you'll earn the basic award rate but if you are personally responsible for increasing business through sales and talking to customers the boss may increase it or give you a bonus. Not saying thats necessarily the case but theres nothing in there that says the person who gets the job will be paid under the award.

And once again cutter796, your making another assumption that i'd bend over for this job. I said nothing of the sort and I don't appreciate the assumption that I would nor you grouping me in with Seaplanelover.

My entire point, your all making a lot of assumptions and twisting what the advertisement says and so far I haven't seen anyone with an real facts on it. Seems like we're all talking about pilot unity and getting together to help our profession as a whole and then this ad comes up giving lower hour guys a go and you all immediately make the assumption that is dodgy or that it'll be underpaid or that the successful applicant will be made to take it up the clanker for it.

I'll quite happily make up my mind when I have some solid information on it assuming I even get far enough through the selection to be able to ask for such information or when someone else comes forward with some solid information as well. Maybe you guys could try the same?

archangel7

3rd Oct 2010, 12:55

You guys are ridiculous.. This is a good opportunity for some young gun CPL kid to gain some exposure to the industry make some contacts and a good reference for the future to show that he is keen... My first job was office duties I was 18 it was perfect for me to show i was keen to make it. I am over all you idiots on here with your disgusting negative comments. over and out..

YPJT

3rd Oct 2010, 13:08

The thread should be closed. The guy is either a troll or a moron, and neither are beneficial to anyone.
Who are you referring to, Seaplanelover or archangel7.
Just because you fell for it a7 doesn't mean it was a good thing either for you or anyone else following.

archangel7

3rd Oct 2010, 15:30

remoak: You dry bugger! sounds like your sexually deprived or It sounds like you are suffering from a mental illness called Clinical Depression... Boost up your dosage and see a therapist u depressed **!!. There are young players on here who actually look forward to their future and do not need to listen to your poison. Show some respect! Go AND become an accountant and live in 4 walls surrounded by more miserable *** ."my mates are accountants" hahah you dry bugger!

To me Aviation is a wonderful industry surrounded by passionate people who love their job. It’s a journey and it’s an adventure and the only people who make it are the ones who want it bad enough. The reason it’s so difficult is to keep the other guys out and keep the people who want it bad enough! It’s a tough industry and no one will give you a job on a silver platter...it’s always been this way! Always! So I don’t see why you guys are complaining about it now, you should've done your research before you become pilots.:)

das Uber Soldat

3rd Oct 2010, 20:15

Who are you referring to, Seaplanelover or archangel7.
Just because you fell for it a7 doesn't mean it was a good thing either for you or anyone else following.

Take note of the very first sentence of my very first post in this thread.

Ill pretend its not a wind-up.

I didn't 'fall' for anything. So as stated, he's a troll. Hence the thread should be terminated.

archangel7, you get thrown into the same basket as the other muppet. Simple question, if you work as a pilot, should you receive as a minimum the award? Don't go on some verbal safari with some random justification. Just a yes or no please.

remoak

3rd Oct 2010, 22:57

archangel7

Well I suppose yours is a pretty normal viewpoint from instructor-land. One day, when you grow up and become an airline pilot (actually, just grow up, full stop), you will understand how life priorities can change and how the occupation you once gazed at with starry eyes becomes less important once you have achieved a certain level of success, and other fun stuff like families have come along. This is particularly true if you end up flying 13 hour stretches on a flying computer that you aren't ALLOWED to hand fly for more than five minutes at either end.

Me, I still love flying and enjoy going to work each day, I enjoy teaching others to fly airliners, and I just generally have a lot of fun. However the balance isn't always easy to find, and many senior Qantas pilots will tell you that.

And as for this:

It’s a journey and it’s an adventure and the only people who make it are the ones who want it bad enough. The reason it’s so difficult is to keep the other guys out and keep the people who want it bad enough! It’s a tough industry and no one will give you a job on a silver platter...it’s always been this way!Surely one of the most naive statements ever posted on PPRuNe...

Oh forgot to mention, nothing above meant to imply that instructing isn't "grown up" flying... it's actually great fun. Just a lot of the people doing it aren't "grown up" yet!

And why terminate the thread just because you think the guy might be a troll? So what? it's all good fun, there are some valid viewpoints here... if you don't like it, don't read it... :ugh::ugh::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Oh, and this:

Simple question, if you work as a pilot, should you receive as a minimum the award?

No... you should get paid whatever you are stupid enough to agree to.

Operators know this and take the p*ss. The only reason they get away with it is because enough young muppets let them.

Some of these companies do exist on a knife edge and simply can't afford what some would consider a decent package. So some of you would rather see them shut down if they can't pay better wages, thus depriving all those working there of jobs? That's pretty stupid.

Anyway, history has shown us that young pilots will climb over each other's bodies to get a gig, so any form of pilot unity is never going to happen and you might as well get used to it. Ain't never going to change.

Monopole

4th Oct 2010, 03:14

It’s a tough industry and no one will give you a job on a silver platter...it’s always been this way! Always! So I don’t see why you guys are complaining about it now, you should've done your research before you become pilots. It may have always been a cut throat industry, but the rewards for those who pushed through were much greater then they are now :ugh::ugh:

I enjoy my job. I have spent many years and spent many more tears and frustration to be where I am today. With regards to weloveseaplanes definitions, I consider myself an Aviator. But I have gotten to the point where flying aircraft (of any description) is not the be all to end all. If I think that it will for one moment effect my kids or rest of family, I will be gone in a heart beat. I guess then I am really only a Pilot :(

However the balance isn't always easy to find 2 days working, 5 days fishing sounds just about the right balance to me.

das Uber Soldat

4th Oct 2010, 03:17

If the business cant afford to pay the award then the business model is already broken. I'm not saying everyone has to come out with 100k/pa packages, but offering sub award pay and conditions just to 'provide a job' doesn't serve the greater good, in my opinion.

remoak

4th Oct 2010, 06:08

doesn't serve the greater good

What planet are you living on?

Since when did any small business - particularly in aviation - have any obligation to the greater good...???

You start a business to make money, not to enhance the career prospects of your staff. That happens later, if the business is successful.

Many aviation businesses are marginal. Whatever you may think of their business model - which is normally just about survival - they have absolutely no obligation to meet your salary expectation.

if you don't like the package, don't take the job. Simple, even in union-obsessed Australia.

YPJT

4th Oct 2010, 06:37

As an employer in this industry, I sleep pretty soundly knowing that our staff get their full entitlements under the award including superannuation etc. Pilots working for less for shonky employers are guaranteeing they will continue to flourish whilst the operator trying to do the right thing sees their business walking out the door because some charter pax, student or hirer can save $5.00 per hour by going to someone who pays their staff 4/5 of FA.:mad:

hugh_jorgan

4th Oct 2010, 07:25

Ix

The point I was trying to make is that floats is not really an environment for a 200hr pilot, I admit there are exceptions to this generalisation. Floats should not be a way of getting into the industry for a low timer that is only applying to the position because he saw it advertised and thought wow that would be a cool way to get my first job in the industry. Alligator used to have a min of 800hrs TT before they would even consider letting someone fly PQJ. The reason for this was that by the 800hr mark the pilot should have some sort of idea on flying a plane and that would make it a lot easier for them to transition to the water ops. Believe me Lake Kununurra is a lot easier learning curve that the gold coast broadwater.

As for the crab pot incident.

1. I suspect the said crab pot was not really an issue as there was no sign of said crab pot in any of the after accident photos.
2. The only way a crab pot could entangle itself was if the water rudders were left down during takeoff run, and even if they were left down for the take off run as soon as plane gets up to a reasonable speed the water pressure would force the rudders to the up streamlined position and supposed crap pot would no longer be an issue as it should simply slip free.
3. If plane did get airborne and pilot decided to land again as crab pot was banging against fuselage (as was stated in various articles) then I would expect that on touchdown the crab pot contacting the waters surface would create enough of a drag effect to tear off the water rudder to which it had attached itself. Both rudders seem attached and undamaged in all post incident pics.
4. I would not expect a competent float pilot to become entangled in crab pots and if he did he would choose to abort well before he got airborne.
5. Crabpot would create significant drag and the decision to abort should have been made much much earlier, I would guess that the reduced performance would have been quite noticeable.
6. I suspect that the crabpot was in fact fictional and an inexperienced low time float pilot simply miscalculated the depth over the sand bar and his take off run required, thus he drove the plane onto the sandbar and flipped. Have not yet heard any reports from the pax to this date confirming or denying the pilots versoin of events and I find that a bit strange.

Best of luck with the job app, be sure to let us all know if in fact you get the job and how it turns out. Maybe it will turn out to be a good genuine offer of employment leading to bigger and better things but I doubt it.

Ixixly

4th Oct 2010, 07:53

Thanks for the info Hugh, good to get that sort of insight!

I sincerely hope that if I do get a call up that it is indeed as you said a genuine offer, but only time will tell like that!

das Uber Soldat

4th Oct 2010, 08:07

What planet are you living on?

Since when did any small business - particularly in aviation - have any obligation to the greater good...???

You start a business to make money, not to enhance the career prospects of your staff. That happens later, if the business is successful.

Many aviation businesses are marginal. Whatever you may think of their business model - which is normally just about survival - they have absolutely no obligation to meet your salary expectation.

if you don't like the package, don't take the job. Simple, even in union-obsessed Australia.

Thanks for the economics 101. Here I was just about to trudge off on an expensive trip to the United Nations to get a binding resolution forcing aviation companies to embrace collectivism and operate solely on the principles of the greater good for all employees only. And communism. I owe you one.

You commented that its stupid for people to believe that non-viable businesses (defined as those who are unable to meet the obligations of the law) should cease operating. The 'greater good' to which I refer is not the one considered by the owner of the business because as you say, he could care less.

Derive the meaning of my statement with regard to aviation as the entity, not a sole operator. On the balance of factors it doesn't serve the greater good for the industry having companies exist that are by that very definition non viable, just to provide a 'job' on illegal pay.

As for don't like the package, don't take the job? Couldn't agree more and I have certainly exercised that principle more than once.

Not much point debating with you however as we're mostly in agreement. Things aren't going to change as market forces > *

remoak

4th Oct 2010, 09:08

Yes although the businesses I am talking about are not non-viable... they might be marginal, but that means marginally profitable, not that they can't meet their obligations. Such businesses can only stay profitable by keeping pay levels down and reducing costs.

Having said that, any business owner would be crazy to want to stay in that position. Those that can move on, will, and everyone profits in the end. Those that can't become victims of natural selection, and probably a good thing too.

It's a pretty fine line...

Agreed on market forces. Perhaps communism IS the answer in aviation... :}:}

kalavo

4th Oct 2010, 09:34

Simple question, if you work as a pilot, should you receive as a minimum the award? No... you should get paid whatever you are stupid enough to agree to.

Yes, as a minimum you should receive the award.

Rules are there for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.

The award is there to protect said fools.

weloveseaplanes

4th Oct 2010, 10:00

"Many aviation businesses are marginal. Whatever you may think of their business model - which is normally just about survival - they have absolutely no obligation to meet your salary expectation.

if you don't like the package, don't take the job."

Agree 100% with remoak.

"And why terminate the thread just because you think the guy might be a troll? So what? it's all good fun, there are some valid viewpoints here... if you don't like it, don't read it"

Again agree 100% with remoak.

Interesting to see that our eloquent friend Soldat is still partaking in a thread he twice ordered closed . . ."The thread should be closed" , "the thread should be terminated."

You'll excuse me if I don't agree with you Soldat when you call me"either a troll or a moron" nor a "muppet." However I do agree with most of your posts 64 & 69 which you managed to get through without insulting anyone . . . its much nicer when you play friendly.

Indeed by continuing the thread there seems to be a lot of agreement reached as I too believe the award should as a minimum be paid to all pilots.

Now if only we could all agree on being more positive in our flying and dealings with others . . .

remoak

4th Oct 2010, 10:29

It's all well and good being marginal BUT if you can't meet the legal minimums for pay, then you shouldn't be operating.Hmmm... well not an Aussie and never lived there, but it would seem to me that if the employer was paying a wage that is illegal under the law over there, it would be a relatively simple matter to force compliance with the law, or shut the company down, n'est pas?

If not, either your Labour department, unions, or government(s), take your pick, are thoroughly useless.

It seems more likely that employers are getting around the law by defining the job in a certain way, in which case there is nothing illegal about it and let the employee beware.

As an aside, I do a little consulting and for a recent project, determined that the operation would be marginal initially but should be profitable within a year, but only if certain economies could be implemented. One of these was the use of First Officers who would pay for their type rating, and then fly for little or no pay (the incentive being twin turbine time). The idea that they should pay to fly was also tabled.

Now there's a conundrum... do you go down that route, and allow ten or so inexperienced pilots to gain extremely valuable multi turbine time that they would otherwise have no chance of getting, or do you bin the whole project because you can't pay a proper salary?

I can assure you that that my initial research proved that the offer of multi turbine time for no pay would be MASSIVELY over-subscribed. Pilots were phoning me on the mere sniff of a possibility of such a gig.

Which is better for the industry? You tell me. Personally, the idea of not paying F/Os a proper salary appalls me, but I have to recognise that in todays market, potential F/Os would be lining up around the corner to get the gig...

birddog254

4th Oct 2010, 11:10

psycho joe

4th Oct 2010, 12:26

Heres a Question for you all.
Yes i agree its disgusting expecting employees to work under such a contract, but what is the alternative for those young hr pilots out there?
sit on there arse and do nothing?
Birddog

Let's see,

1. Sit on arse and do nothing = broke but with arse intact (whole)

2. Work arse off for nothing = broke but with less than a whole arse (perhaps as little as half.)

I'd rather be an arse whole rather than a half arsed Pilot. Or was that aviator? Or is that a half arsed Pilot in aviators wishing that they were as good as an arse whole.
Perhaps if you live long enough and work hard enough you too can be a complete arse whole. But you'll never really be cool until you start flying with a popped collar.

http://www.topgunday.com/wp-content/gallery/top-gun/maverick-thumbs-up-small.jpg

This here's ma button pressin thumb.

.

Counter-rotation

4th Oct 2010, 16:25

And why terminate the thread just because you think the guy might be a troll? So what? it's all good fun

Case in point: Psycho Joe - OUTSTANDING!! You crack me up! :ok:

Here's another laugh for you all (remember this old chestnut?!!)

OI, LIZZY! Can I buy you a drink babe?! (http://www.unionpilot.org/) :E

P.S. It's not all funny - but it's pretty bloody funny.

being a pilot and picking up ladies in the bar in your uniform and Puff forgot: If you actually pick up any ladies, must give boss the first shot...

So chat up the fat ugly ones (no offence Lizzy, you're hot!!) Ha Ha HA :ouch:

CR.

Arnold E

4th Oct 2010, 20:34

your Labour department, unions, or government(s), take your pick, are thoroughly useless.
All of the above Remoak.:{

GADRIVR

4th Oct 2010, 22:03

Remoak.... if the need to implement the suggestions you've described is required to help get it off the ground then I'm sorry to say the venture is more than likely undercapitlised in the first place and will fail in all fairness. Sorry mate, thats business.

Yes, your heart may be in the right place in getting these people jobs however if I was an investor in the project I would have serious reservations about my funds being in there in the first place.

More than happy to continue the discussion via PM.
Regards,
Drivr

Counter-rotation

5th Oct 2010, 00:18

Remoak:
gain extremely valuable multi turbine time that they would otherwise have no chance of getting, or... (my underlining, for emphasis.)

FFS!!! Come on, do you expect me to believe that NOBODY ever got any multi turbine time unless they "bought it"?!! Clearly that is just NOT TRUE! A poor choice of words, on your part I hope. I really can't believe that anyone would believe that!

So what am I missing? (Serious question) Maybe the point is that what's lacking is patience, in the industry today? That's also why those who recoil at all this BYO endo, in all it's various flavours and strengths, do recoil with such disdain...

Think about it - at the heart of the matter, I believe, is Operators figuring out that they can take the impatience of today's candidates (did someone say Gen-Y?), all the way to the bank, like it's currency (the $$$ kind).

I can assure you that that my initial research proved that the offer of multi turbine time for no pay would be MASSIVELY over-subscribed. Pilots were phoning me on the mere sniff of a possibility of such a gig.

Well, the proof's in the pudding, as they say... Why can't these guys just realise that they DON'T HAVE TO DO THIS?!!! WHY?!!! :{:{

Seriously, go destroy some other industry. And if you really must destroy this one, Christ how stupid are you to do it at the start of your working life in it?!!!

CR.

remoak

5th Oct 2010, 00:20

Sure, I agree that money is expected to be tight for the first year or so, but projections have the proposed new operation moving into the black pretty quickly with some pretty solid contracts. That's not an unusual scenario in these times where capital is hard to find. The problem becomes harder as aircraft companies stop leasing older aircraft and look for quick cash sales. Anyway, the current pool of investors are happy and these aren't stupid people by any stretch of the imagination. I certainly can't think of many airlines that have finished their first year with a sizable operating profit.

As I mentioned before, I'm not a fan of "pay to fly", but when the alternative is not flying at all, it seems that there are many eager takers out there. Frankly, I would have done it myself, back in the day. Turbine time is gold when climbing the career ladder, twin turbine time much more so. We already have people queuing up (in a different operation) to pay for for type rating ground schools with absolutely no promise of a job whatsoever.

Whether that is good for the industry, well that isn't a simple question in my view.

For some interesting parallels, have a look at what junior doctors have to put up with...

C/R

Come on, do you expect me to believe that NOBODY ever got any multi turbine time unless they "bought it"?!! Clearly that is just NOT TRUE! A poor choice of words, on your part I hope. I really can't believe that anyone would believe that!OK maybe not 100% true, but certainly 90% true. remember, I am not in Oz. Not many turboprops in GA here and you only get a chance if you "know someone".

Think about it - at the heart of the matter, I believe, is Operators figuring out that they can take the impatience of today's candidates (did someone say Gen-Y?), all the way to the bank, like it's currency (the $$$ kind).

Yes, it's called business... :}

The people who recoil are mostly old-schoolers who never had to do it, and who don't get that the world has moved on now. It tends to be more of an issue down here in Oceania, in Europe for example people are far more pragmatic and tend to just accept that this is the way it is done now. If Michael O'Leary (Ryanair CEO) is correct, we will move away from the low cost model in the next few years, if that does indeed happen than I expect we will slowly see the end of the "pay to fly" idea. I also fully expect that less and less people will choose aviation as a career, and this will in turn lead to serious shortages and consequent improvements in terms and conditions - just like the '80's, when my salary jumped three times (by around 35%) in six months as airlines struggled to attract pilots.

Interestingly, I once asked an Asian colleague why so few of his countrymen were attracted to aviation, and why so many expats were flying for his national carrier. He replied that anyone in his country who had the money for flying, just went and got an MBA instead. More money, less hassle, better lifestyle...