Qf LAME EBA Negotiations Begin

[chockchucker]

Hang onto your hats folks, looks like this could be 2008 all over again if, after day 1, the only words QF management can muster during negotiations is NO.

The following is the EBA update #1 email sent out to all QF LAME's from QF management.


Interesting times ahead.............



Dear all,

As you are aware, the LAME EBA negotiations have commenced.

The first negotiation meeting took place today between representatives from Qantas and representatives from the ALAEA. Representatives from Qantas were Gavin Harris, Keith Clark, Douglas Mills, Sue Bussell, Annie Schmidt, and Ian Oldmeadow. Steve Purvinas, Paul Cousins, Mark Gant, Wayne Vasta, Michael Weitenberg, Wes Bell, Brett Bradbury and Vinko Vulin represented the ALAEA.

Gareth Evans, Chief Financial Officer, attended the meeting and presented a balanced view of the major challenges facing the company. Some of these include the need to increase our profitability to successfully fund our ongoing fleet upgrade and to remain competitive against some extremely fierce competition.

During the meeting, the ALAEA verbally put forward a very extensive ambit claim, which so far does not include a wage claim.

A large number of these claims are simply unachievable for Qantas, and to implement them would have a serious impact on the long-term viability of Qantas Engineering as a whole. We made these concerns known to the ALAEA during the meeting.

We want to conduct these negotiations in a timely manner that results in a fair and equitable outcome for employees and ensures the long-term sustainability of Qantas Engineering.

Regards,

Gavin and Keith

[Jethro Gibbs]

A large number of these claims are simply unachievable for Qantas, and to implement them would have a serious impact on the long-term viability of Qantas Engineering as a whole. We made these concerns known to the ALAEA during the meeting.
May as well close the shop its all to hard:ok:

[poison pen]

Seems as though I will be dusting off my poison pen for use again if the EA turns nasty. I am waiting for the call to arms.

[Going Boeing]

A source said that Oldmeadow Consulting believes that QF management have missed the opportunity to hammer the QF engineers and pilots (thanks to the successful PIA undertaken by the ALAEA a couple of years ago). They are not flush with cash to undertake a protracted dispute and they don't want to burn a number of premium passengers as they did last time.

Obviously, they are not going to admit this which is why they make statements like, A large number of these claims are simply unachievable for Qantas, and to implement them would have a serious impact on the long-term viability of Qantas Engineering as a whole. We made these concerns known to the ALAEA during the meeting.
Essentially, they are playing poker holding zip in their hand.

[gobbledock]

Gareth Evans, Chief Financial Officer, attended the meeting and presented a balanced view of the major challenges facing the company. Some of these include the need to increase our profitability to successfully fund our ongoing fleet upgrade and to remain competitive against some extremely fierce competition.


Start by culling all management bonuses and salaries, especially Alan's, then spread that money among the engineers.
Three-fold benefit in doing that, the engineers get the payrise they deserve, senior management end up on a salary that matches their abilities ( or lack of ) and it helps keep the airline remain viable in this harsh uncertain economic climate ( usual rhetoric from management isn't it ? ).

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Threats threats threats! Accept nothing or QF Enginieering as we know it is finished. No wonder engagement is so low. :ugh:

[Hasherucf]

Do they have any other lines than crying poor ? Sit back and grab your popcorn as this is only the kick off :-)

[Jet-A-One]

5%:)

and you can forget the free laptop...

[lamem]

Qantas engineering as we know is gone anyway. Bit by bit they are slowly dismantling it. They have no long term interest in keeping it going.

[600ft-lb]

I would like to believe that Chris Nassenstein is a positive influence for us, the employees, but I just wonder, after his face to face talks with the workforce has he realised the current state the previous management 'team' has left us in. We are totally distrustful of anything a manager ever says.

Chris is obviously having a go at trying to win back the workforce he's inherited and good luck to him, I for one would like to be on friendly terms in my train of thought with the whole company. As it stands for now its a pure distrust for anything they seek to do. QFuture, no one knows what it is. All I can guess is that its a way to do us all out of a job.

How about getting a 10 year vision for Qantas Engineering out of the management this EBA negotiation. If I for one knew where I would be in the long term, to the best of the company's ability I personally would feel quite different. If the vision is to service only the fleet so be it. Would Singapore Airlines ever give SIAEC the boot ? Would Cathay ever give HAECO the boot ? No they wouldn't. Why is Qantas Engineering required to tender for all 'new' work. The 787 will be no different to the 380 experience and all the joy that has brought to the workforce.

The future is as cloudy as ever.. And Chris, as most of the old timers say. they've seen managers like you come and go, talk big, deliver nothing, next.

[zkengr]

Do not trust C.N. Never ever ever.

Ask the AirNZ guys about the mess he made there. Plenty of very good Engr's left because of him. Since he left for QF, some of the screw-ups have been reversed. Unfortunately, some of the structural changes cannot be reversed.

He has been hired to break you, and he'll do it smiling.

I'll say it again, DO NOT TRUST HIM. Keep everything he puts in print, write down everything he says, you'll need it.
Oh, and he hates confrontation from large groups :E

[Gas Bags]

Reading the email in the original post, and coupling that with the new head of QF engineering, I fear troubled times are ahead for the employees.

Having witnessed the Senior Kiwi management mindsets when Ansett/ANZ decided that Ansett engineering was not a vital part of the core company, which in turn created an era of low moral, of which I have not seen the like again, I feel for your futures.

As 600 said, they come and go, however you guys are in it for the long haul. It is no fun when the workplace is constantly under threat of change that brings no benefit to anyone (not even the company) except transient senior management.

The Kiwis have a different outlook on IR, as compared to Australia, and their system is catered more towards the employer as well. I am not suggesting that one is better than the other, only that they are very different and It is difficult for people like CN to not keep operating under the Kiwi IR ideals when they move to an Australian based company, especially if they are employed to bring about change in the workforce.

Once they start bringing in the motivational speakers and organising roadshows, you know your futures are not going to be as you envisaged them.

I would pay heed to zkengr's wise words.

Good luck.

GB

[GodDamSlacker]

Hey Gas Bags & Zkengr, can you guys give some insight into what CN implemented or the change he introduced in ANZ?
Be interesting to see if he is going to go down the same or similar path...

[Clipped]

Can we begin with calling CN, Nassy and in a few months that can turn to Nasty.

What a minefield this road is going to be.

[blueloo]

Is this why the planes are accumulating heaps of M.E.L.s at the moment?

They went from being pretty good to dodgy in the last few weeks - and its starting to look like the way it was at last EBA.

[zkengr]

Slacker

Probably best not to divulge or discuss potential strategy on a public forum. I would be urging your Union Delegates to talk to their counterparts at AirNZ.

Good luck, there's plenty of Kiwis watching with a knowing sigh.

[Engine Wizard]

Before trusting Chris "Slash-and-Burn" Nassenstein, ask the opinions of all the Air NZ staff he screwed over - before he was given a huge bonus and then getting hired by Qantas. The man has a well-documented history of causing damage. As zkengr has posted, many Kiwis are watching this unfold with great concern. Deja :mad: vu. Hang tough, guys.

[ampclamp]

CN is not here to hand over the cash but he is and will carry out whatever his bosses say to carry out. The board and senior execs set the agenda.

They know the engineers are more united than ever before and I am fairly sure they dont want another PR disaster like last time. It cost a lot of money and the engineers got what they wanted anyway to a large extent.

I am sure they (HR et al) will play hard, that is their job but I do believe the eba can be done better than before. Depends on what changes they wish to make and what needs to forced off the table before real negotiations take place.
No one wins when the airline loses business.

[Jethro Gibbs]

EBA negotiations have commenced and they have already said no so what's left to negotiate ? so how long will the alaea let this drag out ?

[Gas Bags]

Amp is correct in most of what he says.

The board does entirely set the agenda, with the expectation of people at CN's level ordering the execution of said agenda, and indeed nobody wins when the airline loses business.

However, this is not random planning from the board, it is a strategic and well planned agenda (they have had since 2008 to regroup) with input from many facets of the industrial relations arena.

Do not for a minute think that QF have given up on their plans to reduce terms and conditions of LAME's due to the last debacle, they are merely going down another track.

GB

[BrissySparkyCoit]

so how long will the alaea let this drag out ?
Um...... I think you mean how long will Qantas let it drag out.

[empire4]

hey hey hey, calm down boys. QF's not making any money. just look at the loads on staff travel, then try buy a commercial ticket. You can't even buy full fare Business on some days! Lets fight all the way!

[Jethro Gibbs]

Already know Qantas will want to drag out up to ALAEA to put a time frame on it.

[airtags]

............................and I certainly hope the union puts some strong fences up around the 787's as part of the claim - especially if the aim is for a 3 to 5 yr deal.

Beware the JQ led offshore factor!

AT
:E

[Clipped]

The board does entirely set the agenda

Exactly.

Think Leigh Clifford and his industrial track record at RIO.

this is not random planning from the board, it is a strategic and well planned agenda

Without a doubt. Whilst 'engaging' us.

[unionist1974]

Well the last campaign by the ALAEA was effective , no reason to think that this time around it cannot be the same if needed. Bosses have to practice the mouth formation before yes can come out , it usually relates to another part of the anatomy being squeezed . Early days , and don't forget the political climate . Interesting to see how the new management team handle the pressure , most of the old warhorses fromthe last dispute have moved on , lets see how the new chums handle it , or don't . I think a good outcome for the workers is on the cards

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Good to see the thread started. Just a few comments.

787 part of claim? You bet it is.

Timeframe - We give them to February.

Talk to the NZ unions? - Not even sure there is a need, we know what the opposition is like.

Will they want to settle without PIA - I think so. That's why they are already telling you our claims are ambit.

Not discuss our plans on a public forum? - It worked last time. Even better when you post a some red herrings here and there.

cheers
Steve P

[Redstone]

Great timing with the Jetstar announcement, just as the EA negotiations start. Qantas hang your head.

[ampclamp]

Fed sec,
Good to see you around
Is the timing of the JQ JHAS news a coincidence in regards to the EBA?
I think not.
I don't think the broader membership wants to rip QF's balls off for huge rise.Just a firm squeeze.
Job security,decent LAME v AME numbers, respect, a rise to at least match inflation and or similar mechanism to give LAMEs a chance to progress thru the levels.
The bottleneck at the higher levels create a false wage maxima.

A fair share of training rather than see many QF LAMEs just wallowing and slowly but surely becoming skills/licence wise redundant.

LAMEs should not have to blow their holidays on type training.Some types cannot be bought.

Those that do go external should be paid for it especially when licence numbers are clearly short and the persons are demonstrably carrying out LAME duties bar the signature.Not fair.

Some want to see better staff travel benefits or a restructure of it.Some just want to be paid in lieu of it. Maybe a choice of benefit?
Some prefer the way it is but better priority would be nice.maybe f class upgrades?

Food for thought.
Good luck guys.

[chockchucker]

I see that the plot yet thickens with the latest out of the ALAEA. Give them us much buggery as they've been giving us Steve.:ok:



Jetstar Branded A330 Line and Base Maintenance

G’day members,

I think most of you will be aware by now that Qantas have announced that all Jetstar branded A330 aircraft will now be maintained in-house by Jetstar for Line and Base purposes. The ALAEA considers such a move as disappointing and more importantly a breach of clause 11., Job Security of the Qantas LAME EBA 8. Essentially, the job functions of employees are to be retained unless it is a factor over which Qantas has little control. We suspect that Qantas will claim that the decision was out of their hands but I think it is sufficiently clear that the CEO who runs the airline and was handed a binding legal contract with Qantas LAMEs can overturn this decision with the stroke of a pen.

ALAEA Officials have notified Qantas that we will be entering their premises this Thursday to collect evidence of the suspected breach in order to do all that we can in the coming weeks to ensure that the LAME EBA terms are honoured.

Cheers

Stephen Purvinas
Federal Secretary

[sky rocket]

The Army is awakening.:ok:

[ampclamp]

that's fine CC but we must be seen to be playing by the rules and maintain the higher moral ground.
I think our claims should be fair and reasonable and stick to it just like last time.Being seen as 'red raggers', greedy or similar won't help the the LAMEs case.

[ampclamp]

FYI,
2nd report back is on youtube.

[unionist1974]

any more to report SP ? whenis the nextmeeting and do we have a program we are working to ,like last time ? Thanks

[MR WOBBLES]

whenis the nextmeeting and do we have a program we are working to ,like last time ?

What was the program last time ? I dont remember any program we all just did our jobs.

[Gas Bags]

any more to report SP ? whenis the nextmeeting and do we have a program we are working to ,like last time ? Thanks

Tssk Tssk........Who is this?

[chockchucker]

Anybody seen or heard any feedback from the meeting on Thursday?

[Jet-A-One]

After attending the SYD members meeting and further consideration I think an annualised salary should be negotiated as part of this EA wage claim. What do other members think?

Over all the meeting was very informative. Well done SP and reps.:D

[Going Boeing]

Qantas denies 'paddle-pop stick' can open cockpit doors

Published on ASDNews: Oct 27, 2010
SYDNEY - Australian flag-carrier Qantas rejected union claims Wednesday that some cockpit doors could be forced open with an ice-lolly stick, dismissing a call to ground a number of turboprop planes.

Qantas said warnings from the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers' Association (ALAEA), that cockpit locks on some small propeller planes could be opened with a folded boarding pass or "paddle pop stick", were "spurious".

"Safety and security are our highest priorities, and the cockpit doors on 28 QantasLink turboprop aircraft meet all relevant aviation security regulatory and manufacturer requirements," said David Epstein, head of corporate affairs.

"(These are) spurious claims, needlessly alarming the travelling public and damaging Qantas."

ALAEA chief Steve Purvinas said the intercity QantasLink planes had opted for "cheaper versions of doors that are required to be bullet-proof and, on the larger aircraft they fly, resistant to grenade shrapnel".

"These doors are compromised by locks which are not fully bullet-proof," Purvinas said in a statement.

Epstein said Qantas had begun upgrading the doors some time ago, adding that safety scaremongering was a "well worn tactic" employed by ALAEA's Purvinas when wage bargaining was "not going his way."

"There is no need for any aircraft to be grounded, and the travelling public can fly on QantasLink services with complete confidence," Epstein said, referring to the carrier's inter-city domestic service.

(c) 2010 AFP

[airtags]

more BS from the pollie ferret (DE) that Q hired to deliver the company lines - good thing he's moving on.

Good push from SP - although next time run the story with pics and a supportive quote from the Dash drivers. - in fact given DE's statement said it will be fixed today confirms there is an issue...........
...................... if there is a singe a/c operating after today that's not PhII compliant, SP would be quite correct in showing Q's statement for what it is - left over pollie spin.

JA1 - annualised salary comes with a lot of risks - supporting EBA and Work Rules need to be airtight and carefully acceptance tested. OHS & Workers Comp overlays also need close consideration as annualised salary does provide scope for reductions under some circumstances.

Keep batting,

[Ngineer]

Mate I would almost vote yes purely and solely on the point of giving SGFleet the flick. That would be a huge win.:ok:

[unionist1974]

Good meeting SP the annualised salary is well overdue .

[ampclamp]

Can you explain further please re the SG fleet comment and how that is involved ?
Thanks.

[Ngineer]

Hi ampclamp.

The ALAEA mentioned in their feedback meeting that they want other fleet vehicle providers available. This is due mainly to the many complaints that QF employees have raised about their level of service. They are rasing this in the EBA negotiations.

Best to get in touch with the ALAEA about changes they are proposing to our leasing arrangements.

[ampclamp]

Cheers ngineer.
Have heard similar complaints re sg but was not aware of the issue in the EBA.
Good thing.Having no competition means poor service in general.I have no experience with them at all.I used comfleet and found them OK.Details were good and making changes was easy.

I shall give the office a call.

[Going Boeing]

I believe that AIPA is seeking access to other fleet lease companies as part of the LH Pilot EBA. SG Fleet service has been a problem for many QF employees.

[SpannerTwister]

Here's a thought


Annualised salary
+1 weeks extra leave
Scrap all level quotas
Payment for (a certain % of) unused annual leave on retirement
Increase Superannuation
Lift entry grade for new LAMEs
Recognise that certain LAMEs (Mel H/M) may only ever get one type, so arrangements need to cater for these members
Return all maintenance to Australia
Reinstate component overhaul sections so we have parts
There's a start, I'll get back to you with more :)

S.T

[Chimbu chuckles]

Wanna know why management wages have outstripped all others?

Using Gold To Measure Average Wages (http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1262971380.php)

In Terms Of Gold, Wages Are Flat For 37-Years - Bonner (http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_08/bonner042108.html)

Wages versus gold: A look at historical data | The Economic Populist (http://www.economicpopulist.org/content/wages-versus-gold-look-historical-data)

They cant control costs of aircraft, spares, fuel, air nav charges, landing fees etc etc etc. Wages and benefits are the ONLY cost they can control - and we have already seen they can't think outside the 'cut costs' box. Grow the airline - you'd have to be joking? CX just upped frequency between HKG and PER to 10x/week. QF's answer was to cut services to 2x/week. Don't even mention QF's reaction to EK:ugh:

CEO/Senior management pay has skyrocketed in the last 20 years - particularly as a multiple of average employee wages - you can bet your collective ar$es THEY understand inflation/purchasing power. To have the same purchasing power an airline employee had in 1971 you'd need a pay rise totalling about 4 xwhat you currently earn.

Now none of us are going to get that - but don't let the cksuckers tie you down to 7% over the term of the EBA - THEY know that that is actually dramatic reduction in real wages.

I am not saying the above is management's fault or within their control - but employees need to understand what they are up against and how far backwards they go when they believe the political rhetoric about wages and inflation. High wages don't cause inflation, politicians do.

[Jet-A-One]

I think an Anualised Salary has alot of advantages for members that won't cost the company much.

[sniggiH]

Bring on the PIA,i need to do some extra overtime Cairns is pretty quiet now.;)

[HARDNUT]

Well make hay while the sun shines because it cant keep being so good in Cairns.

No work and too much supervision, I would be very worried about my job security if i was you or one of the seniors. 1 supervisor for every 2 workers is a joke.

:ugh:

[Jet-A-One]

It won't be long before you, the other head scab and your golden child will Be-all that will be left in CNS. There can't Be-all that many more courses you blokes can dish out to jnr Scab can there? He hasn't even done his resits from the 800 and you've already got him on the classic course... On top of his bus training, a faster rise to fame has never been witnessed in line maint history! :D

[WOLVERINES]

If you are referring to the person i think you are, i was on a 744 course with him before HM was shut down. If i remember rightly he struggled on that course and failed a couple of subjects.

I hear he has been made a Senior LAME. He was never a competent engineer, how has he slipped through the system??

One can only asssume he has been promoted by people of similar ability.

[magic8]

If there is no work in CNS what is going to happen?.Any chance of picking up some more work to keep LAMES busy.

[Bumpfoh]

Supposedly successful in picking up Cathay transits so we're told, training taking place currently?
Lessons learned from the botched J* bid perhaps?

Folks I think there is more to the EB negotiations than additional lease car companies and the prospect of annualised salary, both of which would be nice but pale into insignfigance with the other company "wishes".

Battle on exec!:ok:

[SpannerTwister]

Here's a thought * Annualised salary * +1 weeks extra leave * Scrap all level quotas * Payment for (a certain % of) unused annual leave on retirement * Increase Superannuation * Lift entry grade for new LAMEs * Recognise that certain LAMEs (Mel H/M) may only ever get one type, so arrangements need to cater for these members * Return all maintenance to Australia * Reinstate component overhaul sections so we have parts There's a start, I'll get back to you with more S.T Opps......Make that .....
* Payment for (a certain % of) unused <b>SICK</b> leave on retirement Opps......Make that ..... * Payment for (a certain % of) unused SICK leave on retirement

[SpannerTwister]

For the life of me I cannot see why we are getting so emotional about the car lease provider.

I'm never one to unnecessary stick up for the company, but in this case I really don't see this as being an EBA issue.

SG Fleet is in no way associated with Qantas, and I think any problems that we have with them are between us and them, and not the company.

We're all big boys and girls, if you have an issue with SG Fleet, go and fight them yourself, don't spend all your efforts getting Qantas to do your fighting for you !

We should put our efforts into things like raising the "entry level", removing caps and quotas, increasing our superannuation, "total wage", payment for unused sick leave on retirement and a host of other things that Qantas management HAS control over.

On a totally unrelated note, has anyone else noticed a creeping tendency for (low-level) management to slowly drift away from the "Take Five" policy ?

Seems they're now clock-watching a lot more, and have also been hassling engineers taking an "unauthorised" "Take Five" break ??

Just my station or a creeping trend ?

S.T

[ampclamp]

our manager is like the invisible man so not where I am.
Would not know if a tram was up him until they rang the bell anyway.Just lets you get on with the job and stays out of the way.

No emotion here my friend. Some maybe so.No point in that.
twister you are of course entitled to your opinion on the lease company.:)
I have no experience (except quotes) with them but without any competition I dont think service is going to be the best.
I know they wont tell you the purchase price until you sign up.That I did try.
I would not sign anything without knowing how much I was paying.End of story.It is a peripheral issue when all is said and done but if it can be made easier or more competitive that is great.

travel benefits were not an EBA issue but now with blow in managers getting a better deal over long term staffies it has become one.At least for me anyway ;).It is so hard to get a ride these days to anywhere you want to go on holidays it is tenuous at best.:uhoh:
I know a number of people who would trade their benefits for a pay rise tomorrow.maybe that would be an option?

Job security, fair pay increase,maintenance of T & C's at the top of the must do list though.:ok:

[buttmonkey1]

The plan up north to domesticate all buttmonkeys seems to be on hold,
once the ea is stitched up the buggery will resume. i hope it drags on forever if thats the case.
Dont know why these 'low level' managers are so keen on buggering things up?
You are talking about the DMM's right?
Couldn't trust them last time, disappointingly nothing seems to have changed.

[1746]

1) parity for the lower grade LAMEs with JQ and VB must be achieved....and,

2)Now as our conditions are being compared with other airlines', all our claims should be calculated on the relativity of the QF CEO's payments with the other airlines' CEOs' payments!:D

[Ngineer]

Spannertwister, I agree that the car lease thing is only one of many issues and nothing to get emotional over. However it is a condition of our award and without competition (as Ampclamp rightly points out) it is one that we will be shafted over. That is a no brainer, and well worthy of a mention in our agreement for fairer and better conditions.

[Bootstrap1]

You might want to see about daily overseas travel allowance being paid at the same rate as AMEs.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

You might want to see about daily overseas travel allowance being paid at the same rate as AMEs.That's a good point. Around 7 or 8 years ago, as an AME delegate, we presented a claim for the AME's to be paid the same allowance as LAME's when seconded interstate, arguing that we eat at the same restaurants, stay at the same hotels and have our uniforms/clothes cleaned at the same dry cleaners. The response back was they would increase the domestic allowance to that of LAME's as long as we accepted a reduction in the international allowance to that of LAME's.....:ugh:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The claim is in guys.

[QFBUSBOY]

Just noted this ad at Rishworth Aviation.These are for Australian positions.Maybe Qantas are planning a 'secondary' workforce, but are preoccupied with the A380.It will be interesting to see if they are going to drag out these negotiations to force a campaign of industrial action.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Current Opportunities - Maintenance Crew
Unlicensed Aircraft Engineers- Expressions of interest

Reference: 1031

Duration: TBC

Start: Flexible

Type:

Experience: Line or Base maintenance experience

Qualifications: Recognised or formal training preferred

Benefits:

Comments: Expressions of interest are welcome from all unlicensed trades for pending Line and Base maintenance requirements. Please register your details or send an updated CV to; [email protected]

[sky rocket]

I hear they are cold calling ex QF Lames trying to lure them back as casuals.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Interesting. The boys are in negotiating as I type.

[hadagutfull]

I saw this quote by Micheal Moore..... I modified 1 word but thought it appropriate in the current climate.....


"These bastards who run our company are a bunch of conniving, thieving, smug pricks who need to be brought down and removed and replaced with a whole new system that we control.”
:D

:ok:
couldnt have said it better myself........

[nosebleed999]

If that's how you feel then do us all a favour and leave. I know in Cairns getting rid of the deadwood over the last few years has improved moral immensly.

[HARDNUT]

Bleeder ,You obvoiusly dont work in Cairns. Or if you do you are one of the "Core group" that the DMM's have selected. Therefore you don't receive the victimisation/harassment/discrimination the rest of us cop!!
As for getting rid of the deadwood,you have to be joking.In Cairns you have lost some of the best engineers going around. (now they are working for the competition and taking your work ):D:D

In Cairns aircraft with nil defects transit without delay,but if one of the engineers with high moral happens to get even the slightest defect or an MEL application,you can expect a healthy delay.

The days are gone of cairns being a can do station. There is only a few competent engineers left and they aren't valued because they dont kiss ass!!!!

[SeldomFixit]

Has Alfie called it a day ?

[magic8]

Agree with Hardnut-from what we hear that port up North the last place anyone would go.We also hear that after EBA sorted out more LAMEs will be on the way out as station is hugely over staffed and over managed.
Anybody up there with any more info.

[WOLVERINES]

The word from higher management is Dmm's and senior LAME's will have to be reduced. Ratio of supervision is nearly 1 to 2 workers.

I hear that management will be relieved when the DMM's are replaced with a station engineer,because no-one wants to be accountable for their treatment of certain employees up there in Cairns.:uhoh:

[BLF Goon]

Yes Alfie took a package about 3 years ago, last time i saw him he is going really well.

[BLF Goon]

When the axe falls these people could pick up jobs at the railways.

Kuranda scenic railway that is.:)

[fixitdude]

Great to see you at the MEL HMaint BBQ last night SP. Yet another night away from the family! Your dedication is amazing.... and very, very much appreciated. Thanks!!:)

[Righty Tighty]

Hi Guys,
Just a different point of view re Jetstar A330 work.
Some of us now employed by Jetstar are ex QF Engineers,yes your mates,
25 to 35 years with the white rat and pushed out by QF managment.
It put a smile on our faces when we were hired,as some northern Dmm's,
put it"I didn't see that comming"
I can't say Jet * managment are any better but at least we can just go to work and do our job.
And also,yes we are members of the ALAEA,in time I think with us ex QF boys now in you will see the membership increase,all I here on the floor is
"look at what the ALAEA got for Virgin"
So when you bag Jetstar Lames,just think we were working next to you not that long ago.
Ps eng change in SYD next week,hope you see a few old faces and help us out.

[division1]

The Jetstar eba would have been quite attractive for a
1 or 2 type lame, but losing that crass QF management style
must have been the biggest carrot in the whole deal.

[poison pen]

After reading the latest email from our trusted and respected management it seems that we are headed down the path of conflict again.
$120 Million is a drop in the ocean compared to what they spent fighting us.

[lamem]

Can anyone verify the rumour that the QF dutchman had a fishing trip recently with some of the Line engineers. Bet the local manager feels uncomfortable about that? He won't have looked good at the end of the day.

[hewlett]

Maybe it had more to do with engagement and the big picture rather than local issues.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Engagement has a lot to do with the local issues too.

[MEA332]

If you do not see the need to bridge the gap between your level 4 and level 15 LAMEs and have everyone on the same shift penalties ASAP, the division Q Management is implementing slowly will only increase and the strength the ALAEA and the QF LAMEs have will cease to be a show stopper.

[Jet-A-One]

Quite a flammable first post MEA332!

But I agree, the single licence guys at QF are paid WELL below the industry average for LAMEs in this country these days...

also-

EQUAL PENALTIES FOR ALL!!! :D

[unionist1974]

You Lames have short memories , the current pay scale was brought in to give HM LAME's a career path beyond just one licence , the trade off for that was that Line LAME's would get a bit less , but at the end it would equal out . Well here you are , whinging and complaining , but could not give a toss about the old AME , you greedy grubs. in the end you will destroy yourselves with greed, mark my words!

[600ft-lb]

You Lames have short memories , the current pay scale was brought in to give HM LAME's a career path beyond just one licence , the trade off for that was that Line LAME's would get a bit less , but at the end it would equal out . Well here you are , whinging and complaining , but could not give a toss about the old AME , you greedy grubs. in the end you will destroy yourselves with greed, mark my words! There is no distinction between line and heavy LAME's in the agreement. A LAME is a LAME.

A 63 year old AME is just bitter. Its understandable when you see these 20 somethings who make an effort to better themselves get paid twice as much as you even though you probably mentored them a few years earlier.

Your anger should be directed to the AWU/AMWU/CEPU/whoever is your AME union for your sub national average wage, not the ALAEA or the people who certify for your work.

[ampclamp]

unionist, there is no career path.It gives all a chance to progress thru the pay scales.
Qantas is a complex workplace so the award must cater for all, agreed.
Your collective "you LAMEs " and "greedy grubs" is pretty insulting by including everyone when very few actually post, a few of which may or may not fit into your narrow minded opinion.

AMEs have their own union for better or worse.If and when they gain a licence they can choose their affiliation.

.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

You Lames have short memories , the current pay scale was brought in to give HM LAME's a career path beyond just one licence , the trade off for that was that Line LAME's would get a bit less , but at the end it would equal out . Well here you are , whinging and complaining , but could not give a toss about the old AME , you greedy grubs. in the end you will destroy yourselves with greed, mark my words!

What absolute rubbish! What rock have you been living under?

[Arnold E]

A 63 year old AME is just bitter. Its understandable when you see these 20 somethings who make an effort to better themselves get paid twice as much as you even though you probably mentored them a few years earlier.

Yep, gotta agree with the younger fellas on this one. There was always the opportunity
to better one's self over the years.
I also note that you are older than me, yet you are a union member only from 1974. What's that all about?

[MEA332]

unionist1974, I suggest you get your facts right! A few older AME's who have been sitting on all basics complete! have, will and are on type courses!

I find that most, not all, AMEs who constantly complain are the ones with no SOE or completed basics, it is just an excuse to make them feel better for not putting in the effort and doing something other then changing light bulbs or wheels and brakes.

It is not greed that drives me unionist1974, it is equal rights and pay for all! It is the older guys who voted out the early shift penalty for a pay rise... so who is the greedy one now? It is time for the same people to help vote it back in.

Happy New Year
MEA332

[ampclamp]

mea, didn't they get a cold weather jacket for that crappy deal?
One of the better ####-you-jack moments in the past.

[Bootstrap1]

Maybe during this EBA they should try and right the wrongs of LAMEs who were shafted during the Sydney HM shutdown.

Some never left the company and had to take lower paid non licensed jobs just to stay in QF and then there are some other who have come back still fully qualified on current QF types and are being shafted once again as the company is using their skills and experience but only paying them AME wages.

The support from the ALAEA back in 05/06 was less than fantastic,but with that executive now long gone,and now the current executive having a backbone then they should try and fix this up.

The casual LAME workforce in SYD(jobs for the boys) has been scaled back for now, so this would be the right time.

[domo]

Talk about today of redundanies in october just wondering was this been spread to blunt the EBA, the source was said to be a base ops manager, just thought Id pass it on

[Jethro Gibbs]

So the you will lose your job story begins again getting a bit old that tactic.

[ampclamp]

If the offer of redundancies actually occurs there will be plenty of interest (as usual)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are not a number of Brissy LAMEs still waiting release from the last round?
With the 380 eating labour and renewed business confidence I suspect they will need plenty of labour.If redundancies are offered it will be very limited imho and probably won't affect our eba outcome.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

They intend to implement no man transits. How minimal would the impact be then?

[another superlame]

The 380 surely eats labour but I thought they didnt want any more LAMEs, they wanted to train in house from AMEs.

And the selection process for LAMEs is a load of crap anyway.

[ampclamp]

Fed sec, if they intend no man transits that of course is a different story.
I was not aware of that when I posted.
We know it has been in the PPM for some time.
regardless of eba they will do it they wish.

[nosebleed999]

No man transits what a revolutionary idea. This will allow us to get rid of the rest of the deadwood and kept those who share management's vision. I have done all the courses offered to me and get paid accordingly. when redundancies come around those that have declined courses will have to survive as they can I know i'll be ok.

[empire4]

with the defects on all the aircraft these days i think they will never be any "no man" transits. Let them go ahead and implement them. See if the public like the fact that no engineer checks the aircraft. QF will turn around and say they get the pilots to do the walk around, and that they have been trained. We all know it takes more than a day of slide shows to spot things on an aircraft.

It is becoming quite a joke!

[ampclamp]

They'll do it anyway.They wont like the bad press but if the bottom line is $$ "saved"....Well... you know what I mean, dont stand between a dollar detecting manager and a fat bonus or you shall be trampled in the onslaught.:E
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So , fed sec how serious is the threat?

[NWT]

No man transits; they have been here in Europe for a long time. As most engineering unions are weak, compared to pilots unions such as BALPA, then these wonderfull ways just get introduced, public wont care, its cheaper!

[BrissySparkyCoit]

public wont care, its cheaper!
Asuming that they pass on any savings made to the public, that is! I'd bet that any savings made gets split up and passed on to senior managers then scraps to middle managers by way of bonuses!

The race to the bottom continues.

[Gas Bags]

No man transits have been in place for some time in Australia with both J* and VB. If anybody thinks that backlash from the travelling public will affect the big Q's thinking on implementation on their part of the tarmac, they really are living in the past.

Dont get me wrong, I dont agree with it but that is the way of the world.

GB

[Skynews]

There is one major difference between the likes of Tiger, Jetstar and Virgin having " no man turn arounds" and QF.

QF don't have the same "outs" on their tickets. If Tiger etc cancel a flight, it's simply bad luck for the customer, if QF cancel a flightbthey commit to placing you n another flight, providing accomm, meals and transport. It doesn't take many cancelations due mechanical issues at a destination that doesn't have the ability to move the passengers on to start costing $$$$$$

With staff engagement at record levels, :ok::ok: I wouldn't find it difficult to find a problem hatparks a machine for a good few hours UNTIL I get some on the spot engineering assistance. Would others?

[unionist1974]

Skynews , so what is it you are up too , ? creating problems that don't exist . I thought above all you had the safety of the public as your priority , mmmmmmmmm , maybe not , eh just your own benefits .

[the rim]

yep its been in the ppm since '03 or there abouts,I agree with the Fed Sec its only just around the bend,as for redundo I think its a long way off,if ever....the QF mangement are talking up re-engagement but a lot of us are not taking it in as we have seen it in the past

[sniggiH]

"PLEASE" Fed Sec you have to come up with a way to stop Q implenting no man transits.

I know i haven't been a union member since june 2008 but i need you to sort this out.

It is really going to effect my empire in CNS. We are allready overstaffed with workers, not to mention supervision (dmm;s,snr lame's) which now stands at a ratio of 2:1

My subordinate dmm notseW and I just forced another one of our engineers to transfer south, it took 3yrs of concentrated harassment to make him leave. But this has only eased the situation slightly.

The reputation of the way notseW and I treat certain workers up here means i wont be able to transfer anywhere.

PLEASE,PLEASE S.P HELP ME!!!!!!!!!!:ugh:

[Bolty McBolt]

No man transits have been in place for some time in Australia with both J* and VB.

No man transits. Who would have seen this coming.

We opened the door to this when we sat down and compared QF wages Vs Virgin Jet*

I don't wish to sound smart in hindsight but a dollar detective is always going to want to compare apples with apples = same work practices
2 cents

[HARDNUT]

Geoff i dare say that some of the SNR LAMEs that support your program in Cairns would be in the same situation as you.

They should pray (as Mark would) that Cairns gets some extra work soon.

[WOLVERINES]

Hardnut i agree, I travel around to the major Qf domestic ports and what has been going on in Cairns is common knowledge everywhere.

These people wouldn't survive at other ports when everyone realised they were involved in what has been happening up there!

[magic8]

I think most people aware of all the wrong things happening in CNS.Hope things improve for you guys that are left up in FNQ.Maybe somebody a bit further south may get wise one day and act accordingly.

[another superlame]

Wolverine, people have short memories, 2 years ago Syd base maint took on some casual LAMEs, some of these were scab labour during the PIA. And noone said or did anything towards them.

Reason being that the moron managers who employed them said any discriminatory behaviour toward them would see the full employer lose their job not the scab.

[the rim]

lets get back on track and stop giving the two ar$e*oles in cns any air time,yes the other airlines do them and QF wants to be the same remember when the union took them on years ago it hit the media big time but as we know the others are still doing it....Steve where are we up to with it in QF

[division1]

Yes Rim, back on track with the EA negotiations.
unless something, anything, is put on the table soon,
i reacon a pia ballot should be prepared.
Can't they even agree to something as simple as the
annualised salary for a start.
It is about time something came of these negotiations.

[LAME2]

It is about time something came of these negotiations

Where has all your patience gone guys? Traditionally an outcome is reached in the 3rd quarter of the year. Why must it be agreed now?

Let the negotiating committee do their job without these crap expectations pressuring them.

Bottom line, we want a good and fair deal. It may not have all the expectations for everyone but that is life, so suck it up.

Support the team in action and words (and money for the Sunstate fund).

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The action will be sooner rather than later.

[Ngineer]

The action will be sooner rather than later.


We're ready. Game on.

[unionist1974]

What timing !

[BrissySparkyCoit]

What timing !

Care to elaborate?

[unionist1974]

BSC ,
Would you care to look at what is going on outside your own self centered world of greed ? No you would not . But , LAME's never have , thats why they broke away from established Unions to form their own elite " Association " not a Union , never have , never will be , don't care about anyone else . Greed is God

[BrissySparkyCoit]

A few little facts for you unionist1974:-
I have only just become a LAME as of 2 days ago.
I was an AME delegate for 10 years.
The ALAEA are fighting to KEEP what QF LAMEs already have.
The ALAEA are fighting for PARITY with LAMEs in other companies.It may have taken me far too many years to become licenced however, I have never once been bitter towards LAME's for that. What's your story buddy?

The current ALAEA executive have done more for their members than any previous executive I have seen in my time (looking from outside as an AME, remember?) A lot of what they have achieved has flowed on to AME unions.

You can bitch about the past however we are living in the present.

The majority of current ALAEA members and executive for that matter were AME's back when your alleged injustices took place.Perhaps they, unlike you, have learnt to move on?

Greed is God It is, if you happen to be a manager collecting ever increasing bonuses whilst blackmailing your workers into foregoing entitlements.

What timing !Again, could you please elaborate on this statement?

I question the validity of your user name.

In all honesty, I am probably wasting my time replying to you, as it seems quite certain from your posts that you are not here to contribute, simply to stir people up.

[Runaround Valve]

You sound like on of the two A M E`s at the section that I worked in many years ago.

[buttmonkey1]

unfortunately word has come from a southern undermanager meeting
that any ideas of getting customer work back are off the table, forget it.
in buttmonkey city this is definately the message received, load and clear.
fedsec, what is the latest progress? like with the meetings before the new year break,
zero, nada, zippo, zilch? what's the latest thoughts on this
'customers will be actively sought if we sign up quick' committment?
and these new, contradictory statements from his next level down?
someone is bull****ting, and then the 'kill the bull****ting' policy. WTF.
i definately know this "we're committed to establishing genuine consultation around any potential
changes to the business which have an impact upon any of our employees" from the next level down is BS.
interesting to run the engagement/management survey/appraisal by the lames one more time,
in some area's the modus operandi has not changed, or the level of disengagement.
well, he does seem desperate to identify the problem areas/what is wrong.

[another superlame]

Buttmonkey,
Chris Nassenstien has already said words to this effect. He also mentioned he was at ANZ during the last round of EBA negotiations and from a customers view why would any customer even consider Qantas when there is still so much uncertainty with the idiots that run the place.


( I don't think he used idiot )

[LAME2]

when there is still so much uncertainty with the idiots that run the place

Words were written in latest magazine as;

"The effect is the same, they see a management and emplyee group who really don't like each other and who, in their eyes (or in my eyes when I was at the other side of the Tasman) does not promise stability of supply."

Seems to indicate both parties share some of the blame. Seems that could be considered a reasonable assumption. Seems to me it would be a true assessment of each other sentimet towards the others "lack of trust". I also think "stability of supply" would be high on a customers priorities.

Find it hard to fathom though why QANTAS, when it has customers coming knocking at their door, do not take their money and sign them up (recent rumors in Sydney of Malaysian and Hawaiian Air??). Might start to break that "lack of trust" circle.

[the rim]

all should disregard his/her remarks as they are full of sh%t he/she does not know why the association formed:=.Looks like its back on track now div1 ,and let hear from our leader[SteveP] on whats to do to seal a deal ifs its PIA then let us know...rim:ok:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just a quick update while I have a chance.

Customers - EA meeting in Nov we questioned their intentions for regaining some customer work. GH said that they were trying. We said that he was lying because the customer reps at sit were telling us otherwise. KC jumped in and said that was true. QF told them earlier last year that they weren't in a position to pick up customer work ATM.

At a meeting a few days before Xmas there was a critical moment. I was there and trying to push things along. I grabbed a whiteboard and marker and wrote up the things that were agreed. They were all things we said we would give them. In return there was a few maybes but nothing substantial. I said "ok you want a four year deal, we want two. How about we agree to 3 but we need something locked in from the job security list. How about confirmation that we would continue to do aircraft transits in ports that do them now." The qantas managers all started laughing and said no way. The refused to commit to doing what we do now. They explained that they wanted to leave all their options open. It may not appear from what I have written to be a critical moment but for those who were their, it was just clear that they have one thing on their minds and it forms part of their future plans.

Any questions?

[sky rocket]

K.C. has to go. To much history with him. I heard on the grapevine that the 744 reconfigs would get outsourced because it is to expensive to do them in OZ.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just watch this space regarding kc. He was honest enough to pull up gh at the ea meeting and confirmed that the alaea was right, the other ops do want to come back but qantas aren't interested ATM.

We have been told that the reconfig job is worth 200mill. The haeko bid has come in 2.5% cheaper. Decision hasn't been made yet on where the work will go.

[division1]

Looks like its back on track now div1 ,and let hear from our leader[SteveP] on whats to do to seal a deal ifs its PIA then let us know...rimhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Well Rim, it seems far from back on track.
Serious time wasters acting, it would seem, in opposition to CN's blurb.
From what i remember of KC when he was the leading hand, a man who
had done the hard lame yards and would not let you down, but really,
time has moved past the hour and to be realistic, nothing agreed.
Something must change, and perhaps Kieth and Gavin are not the best
choices with us comming out of the buggery toward Chris's beacon of hope.
Then again, maybe i'm reading the signals all wrong.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

I heard on the grapevine that the 744 reconfigs would get outsourced because it is to expensive to do them in OZ.
My prediction? H245 is Sydney will do the reconfigs with a mixture of QF Senior LAME's and contractors. Why?

1. Avalon seems to be a dying facility. Probably not up to it from a manpower point of view, very capable from a supervisory/leadership point of view.
1.a. Aircraft must be ferried to Avalon for maintenance.
2. Keith Clarkes return to QF and his background as a manager in heavy maintenance.
3. Apparantly, base maintenance sheeties have all been returned back to H191 the workshop facility and are twiddling their thumbs at present.
4. Most importantly... I quote from the Nov 19th Issue of Leading Edge...
During the last week of October we received
approval to commence major upgrade works
to the Sydney Jetbase area. $20.2 million
will be spent transforming H245 into a Line
Maintenance capable hangar that will be able
to fully house aircraft up to the size of a 747-
400.

$20 odd Million!!!?????

A lot to be spending on a facility for "Line Maintenance"!

Perhaps 747 Heavy maintenance checks will quietly start slipping back into 245 also?

[BigGun]

Perhaps 747 Heavy maintenance checks will quietly start slipping back into 245 also?

They are removing all the docking and gantry to make sure that doesn't happen ;)

[BrissySparkyCoit]

There goes my theory then! Can someone track which country they sell it to?

[Silverado]

There goes my theory then! Can someone track which country they sell it to?

You'd better ask sims metal

[Ngineer]

Any questions?

What is a reasonable timeframe to expect negotitions to drag on before we consider other means. Are we looking at the same duration as EBA 8 before we can start looking at PIA?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I will be expecting an offer on the table by 15th February 2011. That is about 12 months ahead of the last EBA timetable.

Qantas of course will want to drag it out as long as possible so there is as much back pay in the kitty for them to wield as a threat.

Qantas management of course read this. They need to understand that the process for action to take place will commence on 16th Feb if the offer is not on the table. In case they missed it-

The process for action to take place will commence on 16th Feb if the offer is not on the table.

I think that makes our position clear.

[BLF Goon]

Sounds good Fed Sec, I think the management should realise that the backpay carrot didn't work last time and won't work this time

[Short_Circuit]

Qantas of course will want to drag it out as long as possible so there is as much back pay in the kitty for them to wield as a threat.
That is not much of a threat when a couple of overtime shifts will make it up and more (if that is your thing).
Looking forward to 16th Feb which ever way things turn out. ;)

[Ngineer]

Looks like another repeat of EBA8, only sooner. I am sure that they will be just as confident as they were before our last PIA. :=

And I am sure that staff will walk away even more "disengaged" and demoralized than before.

Overtime?? Learnt after the last bout that it's just not worth it anymore, (for me anyhow.. :)).

[Gas Bags]

I am just dumbfounded by what seems to be a perpetual situation at Qantas between its managemant and staff. The same scenarios seem to play out each EBA negotiation and at the end of the day nobody wins. Not the management, not the staff, and most importantly not the travelling public.

I do not and have not worked for Qantas, but one thing I can guarantee you is that Qantas is not the employer of choice in this country. There are a number of reasons on top of the debacle mentioned above which I and others I have spoken with see from the outside looking in.

1. Low pay.
2. Low staff moral.
3. Lack of training.
4. Lack of career progression.
5. THE BOYS CLUB.

These are but to name a few.

When will Qantas management begin to understand that a well paid, well trained, happy workforce causes everyone to be a winner. Them included.

I feel for you guys as it looks like you are heading down the same road as 2008....And I dont blame you one bit. The fact that the board is obviously endorsing this direction is food for thought.

GB

[the rim]

divi 1 I ment the thread back on track...fed sec great news that the date has been set and yes if they dont know this well something is wrong in the upper levels of QF IR ...having just done the "service quality" briefing I am glad to say it was uplifiting in words but as I said we have heard it all before ...its time to follow it up with some actions..show us it in the EBA

[ampclamp]

RIM,you know as well as I do they'll do everything they can to engage the staff as long as it costs next to nothing.The service quality nonsense is probably a training write off and nothing will follow.It allows staff to get the $#!T off their livers and hopefully pacified.
It is 90 % lip service only imho.C N may mean well and truly want things to change but he needs resources to do it and be able to show tangible change is taking place.
The board set the agenda the ceo ex com et al set policy and strategy around that agenda , the minions set it in motion.They then tick boxes bonuses achieved or otherwise.When the boxes are ticked the job is presumably done.So they measure again with another survey and it too disappears into the bureaucracy of IR and mid management. Ground hog day!!
The pure hatred & vitriol that was there between the staff and the managers/IR last time around is no where near as bad this time which must help.
Why an agreement cannot be reached more easily is beyond me.The alaea is not and has never been over the top with claims, in fact they have bent over too easily in times gone by.
In fact, the inability of qantas to see how much this policy costs them is astounding.
The best thing they could would be to be generous and non confrontational so as to cut out or limit the union influence.The reason for the recent strength of the alaea is a backlash at the tough guy tactics employed by the firm.The dog is tired of rolling over.
If the workforce is happy and looked after why would they need to lean on a union? Doh!! It ain't rocket surgery, surely?

[MEA332]

It looks like another exodus is about to plague Base Maint Syd with guys taking postings and positions at outstations and others leaving the company.

One would question the state of mind guys must be in to pick up and leave.

The pride and personal satisfaction is a long lost memory.

[another superlame]

That is news MEA care to give some more details

[Jet-A-One]

It's all good

We'll just pad the place out with dad's army of retired LAMEs and disinterested up-skill fossils!

[What The]

This should be fun.

The LAME's and the Pilots possibly undertaking protected industrial action at the same time if my sources are correct.

Should do wonders for the share price.

[Short_Circuit]

We'll just pad the place out with dad's army of retired LAMEs and disinterested up-skill fossils
Thats absolutely correct, after all the planners only need to see manpower numbers on paper, not engineers worth their salt. :ugh:

[Oh Me Oh My]

I'm a young dude recently licenced (well the last five years) but I don't understande this divisive crap

"We'll just pad the place out with dad's army of retired LAMEs and disinterested up-skill fossils!"

Aren't we all out for what's best for all of us ?
Without the old guys some of the ignorants I work with would not know how to fix anything to busy facebooking each other

Mouth shut, ears open I got a lot to learn and during PIA if it wasn't for the 'fossils' I personally may have buckled I was threatened sveral times and the old guys were the ones who backed me, my contemporaries did not want to be associated with me

[Short_Circuit]

dad's army of retired LAMEs and disinterested up-skill fossils these were not the ones that backed you up in recent PIA the old retired / redundant LAMEs (some of) were part of the alternate workforce working against you last time! :yuk:

[Gas Bags]

OMOM, You have been brainwashed by these old guys.


I'm a young dude recently licenced (well the last five years) but I don't understande this divisive crap




This statement proves the point. You have held a license for 5 years yet you still refer to yourself as newly licenced!

Have a read of Short Circuits post.....

[MEA332]

5 years or 25 years as a LAME, its either you have it or you dont! I dont count years of experience, I rate guys on how they operate, the level of work they put out and passion and pride they have in their work as this is a true reflection of experience coming to play.

Does anyone have an understanding or knowledge of what the comany has put on the table??

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I do. They essentially have put nothing on the table, unless you count agreement with the 3% wage increase we sought.

[lamem]

Our average age is still around fifty. A whole generation is looking to retire in the next year. Sadly some are dying. They cannot get many good quality apprentices and the ones they do get are older than normal. Commonly in their late 20's, 30's or even 40's. They cannot retain AME's because they are starting to realise they can earn more elsewhere and have a limited future at Qantas. Even CN has stated that the future holds less, but more qualified LAME's. The industries future is bleak but the engineers future is looking assured. They cannot continue to stuff us around forever. Stick together and look to the future.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Forstaff have just told everyone they have 40 something to many LAME's. and they and Qantas have really done us a favour keeping them on.

[empire4]

forstaff is and always will be a half ass joke of an employer. I wonder why QF still associates with them still. When I spent my time there it was nothing but lies from the management. This coupled with the people they put into management and some of the QF 'snr' lames make it a sad place. unfortunately the 744 is dying and your best bet is to move on.

[the rim]

mate i agree,if it was not for the old fellows we all would know nothing....and us old fellows are still learning stuff anyone who does not think they can learn new things is kidding them selves....and i mean learning things from young guys as well.....fed sec does the company look like comming to the party yet and have you had a heart to heart with Alan yet and indicated to him how the work force feel and i mean "force" ....I am sure you have...not much responce on your question about "no LAME preflt"

[unionist1974]

In the time I have been in the Industry , it has changed beyond recognition to what it was , I agree that we no longer attract the cream of school leavers , but that has been happening for some time . And , in my opinion it is all about the asspirations of smart young people , they do not want to crawl around engines and aircraft ( at leaast the smart ones don't ) they want to learn , explore and try out the world before they decide on a career and then change their minds . They are looking to the future not the past , not interested in battles won or lost , more their own future and they will decide for themselves , they will not need so called "UNION LEADERS " to guide them . As Bob Dylan so famously said " the times they are a changing"

[BrissySparkyCoit]

So "union leaders" should just go away should they?

What about the majority of people who want to be a part of a union, recognise what a union achieves for them and the protection against exploitation that unions provide?

You are so far out of touch with reality, I wonder if you really were ever on a hangar floor.:ugh:

[mightyauster]

What about the majority of people who want to be a part of a union, recognise what a union achieves for them and the protection against exploitation that unions provide?


You must be an effing comedian!
Most probably never worked outside of the sheltered workshop of QANTAS either....

[Anulus Filler]

I agree that we no longer attract the cream of school leavers

Unionist, were you the cream when you left school?

[ampclamp]

Bright youngsters with a technical streak have plenty of hi tech alternatives these days.
When I started the opportunities in IT were minute.Aircraft trades, eleco, radio tech was all that was around with very little computer stuff about.
Computer programmers were spoken off in hushed tones as they did their cobol or fortran etc.

[Ngineer]

Maybe a few feedback meetings might be a good idea to enlighten members as to the direction we are heading.

[Jet-A-One]

Put your guns back in their holsters old dudes!

I never said anything against our valued more experienced LAMEs.

What I do have a problem with is Base Maint management bringing back previously redundant LAMEs as casuals purely for their signatures thus reducing type training requirements. :ugh:

[BrissySparkyCoit]

What about the majority of people who want to be a part of a union, recognise what a union achieves for them and the protection against exploitation that unions provide?
You must be an effing comedian!
Most probably never worked outside of the sheltered workshop of QANTAS either....Read the title of the thread.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I agree that we no longer attract the cream of school leavers

Says who? The managers who refuse to take on apprentii so they can turn around and use this as an excuse to run our industry down?

None of the blokes I started with were staight A students and some of them are top LAMEs now.

[mightyauster]

Read the title of the thread.

You QF guys (especially the coneys!) need to get out more often and experience the trials and tribulations of the real world...

[Cactusjack]

I agree that we no longer attract the cream of school leavers
Probably because most of them are now a wake up to how the airlines are run these days and what the conditions are like due to being run by managers who can only be likened to Stalin, Mugabe and PolPot.
Plus they can earn double the coin working for a mining outfit.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

You QF guys (especially the coneys!) need to get out more often and experience the trials and tribulations of the real world...

Not disputing that however, this thread is about the QF LAME's EBA. As I said, the majority of LAME's are members of the association.

Probably not the place for this, (after all, I did mention that this thread is about QF), I do note that in other threads you seem to be troubled by the lack of attention given to the GA award by the ALAEA.

So my question to you is this. Are YOU a member of the association?

If no, then quit complaining about their lack of attention to your award.

The ALAEA really has no obligation to those who are not members. Don't like that? Negotiate your own award! Best of luck :ok:

[mightyauster]

I do note that in other threads you seem to be troubled by the lack of attention given to the GA award by the ALAEA.
I left the ALAEA for that very reason. The association was quite happy to demand dues from me, even though I was truly struggling at the time, but have done absolutely jack sh!t for it.

Negotiate your own award!

I truly wish I could. Since 2001, the industry has taken the opportunity to ar$e rape us LAMEs big time - you take what ever is offered - including multiple jobs, just to make ends meet. I'm afraid I wouldn't recommend this industry to any school leaver these days.

[One Eye Redundant]

mightyauster. Excuse me while I wipe away my tears.

Most of us who were there in 2008 couldn't wait to stand up and be counted. We didn't just stand back and expect the ALAEA to get a better deal for us. We all realised that we ARE the ALAEA. Every one of us standing together allowed us to negotiate a better deal for all of us. The fact that you are no longer a member shows that you made your choice, not to be one of us. If you were really so upset with the industry and the way you have been treated, you would be more supportive of the actions of the ALAEA, which are only driving up the conditions for all LAMEs in Australia.

By the way, I heard that Big M isn't even allowed to play with train sets these days. That goes for some of his cronies as well.

I would hope that the current QF management have more sense than their predecessors, and would want to reach a fair negotiation between the parties rather than try to dictate terms.

[Millet Fanger]

Dream on One Eye!

The tone of the EBA updates, GH's negotiating tactics, the lack of staff engagement (even though they pay lip service to the idea) - No, the new management have not learnt any lessons from last time. Still using MH's notes, I would suggest. Unfortunately, I think they are ready to 'burn' another $150m.

On the other hand, I think the ALAEA membership is more united. Numbers have grown both within Qantas ( 95% of LAMEs are members in my area compared to about 80% last PIA) and within aviation in general. I have confidence the current executive know where they want to end up, know how to get there and will do it according to their timetable.

Unforunately for QE management (and all employees in the long run), Qantas is in a much worse position this time compared to last.

[MEA332]

I think we are to blame for some of the younger guys coming through, the apprentices don't have LAMEs sitting down and going through systems diagrams or explaining why the job is being done, all they know is "Do what is on the task card" and sign it off.

The EBA scene has been a little quiet over the last few months, no updates (youtube) or emails have come out. Any news Fed Sec?

[Ngineer]

Guys in my dept are talking likely industrial campaign in the coming months. Aparently nothing on offer, not even an option of another lease supplier or other salary sacrifice options. Surprised you haven't heard much. I guess a few feedback meetings will be held after the mid-month deadline.

[ampclamp]

Fed sec has indicated here that prep for industrial action will start on the 16th of February.
Expecting an offer by the 15th but if not I guess action will commence.

[LAME2]

Cautious steps needed brothers. Management were educated by us last round and will have newer and better tactics this round.

Easier to control or anticipate the uneducated.

[Ngineer]

Thanks Ampclamp. Pretty much what I heard.

Last bunch of managers took us on feeling pretty confident. I am sure the new faces (and some of the older ones) will feel the same this time around also. We will see what we will see I guess.....

[another superlame]

Fed Sec posting a few comments in this blog does not constitute feedback. If any sort of action is going to happen I think a little extra notice would not go astray.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

G'day all. Just some feedback and then an explanation on the various forms of communication we use.

Yes I posted that the process for some action would commence 16 Feb. Main reason for this posting was to let Qantas know that we won't be sitting back this time and to put a god damn offer on the table. They can sort a Forstaff EA out from initial approach to ballot in 6 weeks. Qf EA discussions have been running for four months. Qantas have asked me about the post and I let them know I am good for my word.

Last you tube a few days before xmas. Most of us been off Jan and there were no planned meetings. They kick off again this Thurs. E-torque with some info comes out tonight.

As to the feedback we use I can break it down to the value I estimate each form delivers. These meanings will be used MC-members covered. TT-time to deliver. CA-approx cost for ALAEA. CD-amount of content delivered.

Meetings all ports - MC 95%, TT 3 weeks, CA $8000, CD100%.

Meetings Eastern States - MC 85%, TT 2 weeks, CA $5500, CD 100%.

Notice - MC 70%, TT 5 hours, CA $0, CD 40%.

Email - MC 80%, TT 2 hours, CA $0, CD 25%.

You tube - MC 50%, TT 5 hours, CA $0, CD 60%.

PPrune - MC 25%, TT 15 mins, CA $0, CD 25%.

Text Msg - MC 90%, TT 1 hour, CA $500, CD 10%.

There is a place for each of these methods but regardless, members should spread word. The coming months may be interesting.

cheers
Steve

[another superlame]

Thank you.

[1746]

never ever believe we are invincible!
The task in front of us was never, ever going to be a walk in the park, so one step at a time.
That said... never weaken our unity which was the best outcome of the last battle. Far more important than any pay rise!!!
United we stand - divided we fall!

[Gas Bags]

I hope you guys dont end up trading a LAMEless tarmac for a 3% payrise per annum for the next 3 years.

[the rim]

Gas Bags the no lame preflt has been in the PPM since '03 I think the company may introduce it soon as we start some sort of PIA,what we have to remember is what 1746 stated .....UNITY is the key,it was in the last PIA and it is in the sunstate PIA.......rim

[Gas Bags]

Does that mean you have already traded the LAMEless tarmac for the 3% per annum from the last EBA....Doesnt seem like such a good deal. What do you have left to trade off?

[ampclamp]

It was the advent of "New Gen" aircraft and casa rolling over that allowed the LAMEless tarmac.Dont recall the union trading it off.It just happened afaik.fed sec could tell the story I guess.
Those new gen a/c are amazing , never get hit by birds, spring leaks, get hit by vehicles during transit. Pilots always get time to do a detailed check and pick up said defects too , amazing aircraft.:E

Not overly confident here.If qf want no lames on tarmac they will do it regardless.They'll say they did it over the eba. If they have not carried through by now there must be an ulterior motive or good reason not to.

[LAME2]

Was side letter in last eba basically agreeing they would not introduce lameless tarmac during life of eba8. Has always been there as a threat since Bruce Deahm early 2000's. Patience needed. Heed the plans of the executive. If and when (I personally hope it is sorted without strife), expect a buggery campaign more intense than you think possible.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Does that mean you have already traded the LAMEless tarmac for the 3% per annum from the last EBA....Doesnt seem like such a good deal. What do you have left to trade off?


Get your facts right bloke. The last EBA was not a 3% deal, it delivered 4%-5.8% pa depending on the level you started on. Don't then validate your own rubbish by indicating it wasn't a good deal and in doing so assume we have sold out on LAMEless tarmac becasue that is crap as well.

Last EBA we signed off on retention of all functions carried out by LAMEs at the time the agreement was signed. This included checks on all transits (except unmanned ports such as Ayers Rock). We haven't rolled on anything and further intend to cement our functions this time around. Company have a different view and have already named the system they want as "maintenance on demand".

I hope this clarifies things.

[Sunfish]

I like the idea of "maintenance on demand".

All that is then required is to pressure the "demanders" not to demand anything too expensive.

If the "demanders" are pilots, then management has the ultimate cop out.

Pilots are penalised for "demanding" by an informal corporate culture, while retaining formal authority for having to demand maintenance.

What could be sweeter from a management perspective? The responsibility for "demanding" maintenance is shifted to the pilots.


Flying to a very wet destination? Worried about a couple of bald tyres? Want to change them now and cop an "avoidable" delay? Your call!

[division1]

maintenance on demand, absolute genius coonts thought that one up.

[Bumpfoh]

Well if thats the case then very little would change.

Not for a moment am I abdicating such a notion, however there aren't too many nil/noted transits from both tech and cabin logs and that's without the respective crews looking/trying too hard to find things, pax breaking things, pax spilling drinks etc etc.

Bring it on f wits.:=

[Gas Bags]

Steve,

Dont get me wrong. I have the utmost respect for you and what you do. It is a thankless job. You come on to this forum not hiding behind the veil of anonimity, like others including myself.

However I would like to point out that sometimes you do tend to obfuscate certain facts or leave specific answers out. One example would be the two hours overtime you said equates to another 10% of the pay packet per annum. I dont dispute that this may exist for some, however I doubt it would for the majority of QF engineers.

That said I appreciate your efforts and genuine belief in the ALAEA cause. I am a member.

I cannot agree with you that the QF pay scale is a good deal when you look at the top level being a total of $156,000 PA (approx) includise of a 38% shift loading, and it not only is capped but could potentially take you 48 years to reach.

Someone could start with QF today, holding ratings on half the fleet, and be on somewhere around $95,000. Then wait 16+ years to get anywhere near a liveable wage.

It is a simple fact that for some reason the QF pay scale has taken a serious second place to the other main players in Australia. What can be done I dont know. Time will tell. I would imagine in the future market forces will be the only thing that will convince QF management to close the gap with the others.

To attract suitable external LAE's something has to be done to address the non recognition of experience as an LAE outside of Qantas. You have stated that the 20 year LAE will be able to diagnose and troubleshoot at a higher standard than a first year LAE. I agree whole heartedly with you. If I started with QF today my 20+ years is disregarded and I am treated, monetarily, as a first year LAE.

I know quite a few people who do not apply for advertised positions with Qantas, purely for this fact. If you dont start with them at 21 years of age you are at a major fiscal disadvantage. Most of these people are valuable assetts in their current workplace and would indeed be as well for Qantas.

We had a similar structure at Ansett, and it was voted in by the longer serving members to the detriment of the shorter serving members.

I think you should be considering the view of some of your members who are proposing an equalisation of payscales that will make the system a little more fair across the whole spectrum of employees.

GB

[EWANQF]

I think you should be considering the view of some of your members who are proposing an equalisation of payscales that will make the system a little more fair across the whole spectrum of employees.

Gas Bags,I believe the equalisation of payscales at ANSETT was called "Fast Tracking" for lower paid LAMES and "Slow Tracking" for those Higher paid LAMES.

[Gas Bags]

EWAN,

First I would like to clarify once again I do not work for QF, however I have been around and seen quite a few different companys, countries, and industrial arenas.

The fast tracking at Ansett again favoured the older guys with more time with the company as they were invarioubly the ones who were fast tracked through the system with a grade jump every 12 months.

I was referring to comments like this:


Steve, even 12 or 16 years is ridiculous. I think this needs to be spelled out to QF lames and they will see that mathematically being on the virgin system is much fairer and rewarding. Of course i think guys above the level will disagree.

I ask this Question; Is the responsibility any different for a lame signing with 1 month experience to one with 20 years?


An annualised salary at QF would go a long way to bridging the gap too.

Especially for the younger blokes that are trying to buy houses etc. Most banks won't consider your shift penalties under the QF system when it comes down to how much they will lend you.

It'd also be nice to be able to have the day off when I'm sick rather than draging myself in to save losing my penalties...


Obviously there are merits and pitfalls in any type of pay system. I saw them in the system at Ansett as I honestly thought I would retire there. In that system you were benefited by being there at the age of 21 and staying for the rest of your life, the same as the QF system. But we are talking about a system that would now be about 15 years old, and the environment has changed in Australia. Maybe it is time to change with it.

Perhaps as Steve has suggested there may be merit in having a parrallel pay scale running which will benefit the younger members working there.

GB

[Gas Bags]

This is cut from one of my previous posts...

If I join Virgin today with a 737NG licence I will get paid a base rate of $117,572 a year.

If I join QF today with a 737NG licence I will get paid a base rate of $87,595 a year. With no training by either company it would take me 5 grade jumps, or twenty years at QF, for the salaries to equalise.

That is a difference of $29,977 a year for the first 4 year period = $119,908.
And a difference of $23,854 a year for the second four year period = $95,416.
And a difference of $17,750 a year for the third four year period = $71,000.
And a difference of $11,655 a year for the fourth four year period = $46,620.
And a difference of $5,532 a year for the fifth four year period = $22,128.

That brings the earning capacity difference over the twenty year period to $355,072.


Not only do you have the approx. $350,000 difference over the 20 years before the pay scales basically line up, but then look at it this way...It will take approx. the same length of time again progressing through the 4 year grade jumps before somebody will have made back the $350,000 that the Virgin guy was in front by.

So after approx. 40 years at QF you are then actually better off financially than the guy working at Virgin.

GB

[LAME2]

And what are people prepared to "pay" for an annualised salary?

What are they willing to give the company because the company will want some form of "payment", be it NIL change for the individual (problematic due to increased costs with sick leave and LSL etc) or the individuals take a pay cut to help lower the "cost burden" for the company.

Make no mistake, the company wants productivity or cash payments for every consession achieved by the Association.

The current pay system is not fair for all players, but explain to me a pay system that is.

Harden up and work with what you have.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

GB

The figures you are using are based on the Virgin 40 hour week and the Qantas 38 hour week. Try it again with 2 hours overtime a Qantas LAME would get paid if he worked the same amount of hours. It puts a sizeable dint in your figures and would be more accurate.

I'm not going to go into detail over a number of further inaccuracies in your last few postings. I know you are pro ALAEA and just pressing a matter that concerns you. I will just highlight one. I never said that the QF "pay scale" was a good deal and never will. It is devisive and designed to cause tension and scope for management to drip feed us with minor changes each time we negotiate. I spoke out when it first came in, was disadvantaged myself and have done all I can to fix a problem our Exec was lumped with when we first came in in 2006.

[Gas Bags]

Thanks Steve for the response,

Can you clarify for me the bases and actual workplaces that exist within Qantas that attract the 2 hours OT per week.

I am pretty sure that a number of them dont, by either working an 11.4 hour shift length or a 4 on 5 off shift pattern.

I am more than happy to be corrected, but that is my understanding as is evidenced by me previous post which included this point


One example would be the two hours overtime you said equates to another 10% of the pay packet per annum. I dont dispute that this may exist for some, however I doubt it would for the majority of QF engineers.


Thanks for understanding I am not attacking you or the ALAEA, merely pointing out an alternative viewpoint.

The "harden up" philosophy espoused by LAME2 does not cut it with a large number of the membership at Qantas. I would suggest with a callsign like LAME2 that poster is on one of the higher levels and benefiting from same.

Why not change with the times and look at developing an alternative system to what is available that will benefit not only the younger members at Qantas but also future employees who are members also?

GB

[LAME2]

The "harden up" philosophy espoused by LAME2 does not cut it with a large number of the membership at Qantas. I would suggest with a callsign like LAME2 that poster is on one of the higher levels and benefiting from same

Unfortunately not a higher pay grade.

Understand frustration with AN pay scales, was done over with that system so much I left.

Understand frustration with previous pay scales including redundant licences. Was done over with that also but didn't leave at the time (see above).

Only thing that remains true for all pay systems, whatever company, is no pay system is fair for everyone all the time. (A good friend of mine told me that years ago and I agree). If you feel disadvantaged, do as I did. Otherwise put forward a proposal for consideration but first, see previous post of mine.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

GB

It matters not which sections in Qantas are working a 38, 40 or 42 hour week. It is about comparing apples with apples. FYI the Qf 40 hour weeks (that include 2 hours overtime) are worked Syd, Mel and Bne domestic and I am sure some others as well.

At Virgin it is 40 hour everywhere and the wage is based on that. Qantas is all over the place so we need to take the base amounts in the pay agreement as you have, add the 38% penalty as you have (this is based on the Virgin and Qantas 4 on 4 off) and then add 2 hours overtime which has been omitted. Then you are comparing apples with apples.

If this makes it clear you may want to adjust your figures. Please don't open up a debate about regular overtime, inbuilt overtime and adhoc overtime. Its all paid the same and I estimate that 90% of LAMEs in this country have an average working week of around 44 hours.

[Gas Bags]

Fed Sec,

Once again obfuscation.

To not mention inbuilt overtime is an oxymoron however I will disregard this and err on the side of caution.

Lets take 2 grade jumps off the 20 years I posted as the wage equalisation time between VB and QF. That is eight years, leaving a total of 12 years for the wages to equalise. Add the approx 12 years in grade jumps at QF for the difference to be made up and that still takes 24 years.

I have removed 16 years to err on your side of caution, which should well and truly take out the 2 hrs of overtime per week.

Something is wrong here if the premier carrier in this country is that far behind the other players.

GB

[Jet-A-One]

So is an annualised salary any chance this time around or not Steve?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

So is an annualised salary any chance this time around or not Steve?

Qf are an absolute deadset no on the Annual Salary. So yes it is a chance. Last time they were an absolute deadset no on a new level and we got it.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Lets take 2 grade jumps off the 20 years I posted as the wage equalisation time between VB and QF. That is eight years, leaving a total of 12 years for the wages to equalise. Add the approx 12 years in grade jumps at QF for the difference to be made up and that still takes 24 years.

I have removed 16 years to err on your side of caution, which should well and truly take out the 2 hrs of overtime per week.

Something is wrong here if the premier carrier in this country is that far behind the other players.



Lets call the break even point 24 years then. You leave before then, you lose. You last longer, you win. I would say most LAMEs at Qf will finish their career with over 24 years as a LAME at Qf. They end up well in front. How does that make the premier carrier in this country far behind the other players?

I note that we are only comparing with Virgin here. Try doing it with Jetstar, Sunstate, John Holland or SkyWest. It might just be that the new Virgin Agreement was a really good outcome and they are now ahead of the pack.

[Gas Bags]

Fed Sec,

I compare VB with QF because they are the second biggest operator in Australia.

The fact you have answered my question as you have has only reinforced my belief in you and your abilities.

I asked myself how I would answer my question and I was unsure.

I sincerely believe that the PPRuNers out there with an interest in our topic will benefit from our small debate.

GB

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The EA committee and I have done quite a bit of work on all these issues. We actually have a comparison table drawn up in our office to track it all.
Not much more I can say about the merits of one employer over another.

On another note the 2 teams met today to thrash things out. Was not there myself but reports are coming in.

cheers

[EWANQF]

Gas Bags,as you can probably decipher by my user-name I am at QF.There is an ageing workforce here and I believe this EBA will be the last or second last for many that I work with until they are off to Retirement Land.The fast track pay system for lower paid LAMES will not only guarantee QF a stable and engaging workforce,it may even instill a Level of willingness to accept the process of moving to the new world of Part 66 Licensing,which will see many of us upskilling .

[Bigdog01]

I am a sunny bunny, firstly thank you for all the support. Has been greatly appreciated.
Fed Sec now has the guidelines they will employ against you - thank you for taking the time to come up and chat recently. Emails are good but nothing like a face to face.
We are fast approaching the 2 year from expiry mark and in real terms no closer to a resolution. Of course if logic prevails could be over in a week - logic & QF manager is like oil and water doesn't mix.

see you outside where the real work gets done.

[ampclamp]

I suspect sunn'ys engineering issues will be solved as soon as the mainline EBA is sorted.

[Bigdog01]

Thanks ampclamp, however I won't hold my breath, as I could turn blue and fall down.
:eek:
Our manager is only good for 1 thing shutting down facilities - ARAQ townsville,Southern Mildura, and the home of Sunstate Maryborough.:{
The only time he has a spine is when his boss sticks his arm in the back slot to operate his mouth.

[MEA332]

GB,

I agree with you mate, this pay structure at QF is a joke!

If the people who represent us or others think we are going to sit here and calculate 24+ years to be better off, then people have chocks for brains.

Who knows where the aviation industry is heading over the next 20 + years, what I do know is that most of us wont be here, QF anyway.

Make it fair for everyone.

[Gas Bags]

MEA332,

I am glad somebody else shares my viewpoint. I think that Steve does to some extent as well, however I understand his position.

Approx. 15 years ago the guidance counsellors at the local high schools were advising their students that across their working lives they would change jobs and possibly careers no less than 7 times throughout their working lives.

That philosophy I am sure would be even more relevant today.

Unfortunately as LAE's tied into a pay structure that recognises experience gained (time served) within the company and does not recognise experience gained outside the company, we end up like the pilots being based on essentially a seniority system that sees rewards come purely on time served.

This is a two edged sword.

Qantas as a company deprives themselves the opportunity of employing some very experienced LAE's purely due to the fact that those people would be treated as first year LAE's under the Qantas pay scale, and shy away from applying due to this.

As well as that there is a tendency to not want to leave the system for fear of losing your place in it.

Both of those phenomena play into the companys hands and assist them in maintaining lower wages, as well as being out of touch with the modern world of a mobile workforce.

GB

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

This is all true. The problem is that 80% of the LAMEs are that far advanced into the system that they don't want it changed. It's a catch 22.

[Syd eng]

I have to agree on that one Steve, I am now sitting on lvl 6 with 1 A/F & 2 Eng's. Stuck in the middle with barely any training and not much incentive to go forward.
On good money so I can just lift my feet up and go with the flow for another 10-15 years. I hate that part of it. I want incentive to go forward or at least be recognised for my efforts.

[ampclamp]

Gasbags thanks for the civilised input.Not sure I agree with you fully but worthy of discussion.
The pay system is full of multi edged swords depending on age, licenses held, time in the industry time in company, the airline competition ( new entrants have at times had to pay over the mark to get licences).So many factors. Very hard to please everyone.

Bigdog the acts in your workplace are designed to threaten the mainline guys if and when a PIA takes place.In that I am quite sure.
That's why I say your troubles will settle soon after mainline.Maybe I give them too much credit for cunning but that is what I see as a likely tactic.Either that or the court will rule first if the PIA rolls on.

[another superlame]

While all this is going on why not mention that the AMEs in A380 who have now have their licenses are waiting once again as the company and association bicker over what level they are to come in as.

In the current system a conehead who get EIR for their first license gets about 3 levels. I believe the company and union are using the EBA and these new LAMEs as a bargaining tool for the new generation. Since they will be B1 and sign in all 5 categories it would seem fair that they enter the system at the same level as an initial EIR LAME, but apparently this isn't so.

Fed Sec could you expand on this?

[Bigdog01]

From what I've read and am aware of your system although not perfect allows you to move up a grade over time (4 years). This in effect pays you for experience on type, consider the possibility of no movement once at that grade. If you aren't deemed worthy of another type, you will only get an increase at EBA.
How would you feel that having held a license for 4 years, gained experience to be able to diagnose and fix problems faster than somebody who has held the license for a week. Yet you are on the same pay.
Sunnies have locked their guys down forever at the same point - only interested in the standard EBA inc 3%/year for ever. Also trying to stitch up next aircraft payment before you know type (turboprop or jet).
Be very careful with tweaking the GWS

[Oh Me Oh My]

its great to see the debate here, its a pity that its not on our own private forum though I dislike the press and other fiends being able to read

QF system good or bad ?
Voted in in 1997 ! it's 13 years old therefore some adjustment must be required though I do get p!ssed off with all the whingers who voted it in and yet now complain that they are quota restricted, oh woe is me

QF pay badly ? that is an absurd question of cousre their pay is bad they give most to the execs joyce 24% a year ago, buchanan 48% then too they look after themselves then tell all of us to tighten our belts or we'll be history

The ASU one of our most vigourous unions for dispute have been castrated (pardon the pun) by Joyce the !@#@$%% bringing in an automated system that will cull their numbers by 60% or more

2008 taught us LAMEs a valuable lesson without unity there is nothing we all need to rise up once again and wrest this company from an individual that has no concern, no love and to be perfectly honest not enough brains to save us.
He pushes jetstar at every turn the only reason jetstar is not full time into CBR is that joyce is scared of pulling bus class from the pollies they would crucify him

TO ALL THE CORPORATES OUT THERE FOOLED BY JOYCE"S SMOOZING

THERE IS NO EMPLOYEE ENGAGEMENT AT QANTAS ONLY DISENGAGEMENT

worst of all QANTAS used to be a great place to work now it is nothing more than an existence now im looking for the next opportunity I wont make my 24 years im afraid.

Oh and by the way FEDSEC why do we allow scabs to work along side us there is one at the moment who is repositioning for team 380

[The Black Panther]

I get the feeling it's time to renew your relationship with our old friends QEPM,IPC,& QESM.

There is an uncomfortable silence after the recent spate of BA updates coming from the Liar Liar the 13th Man.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just to answer a few questions that have appeared in this thread.

Oh and by the way FEDSEC why do we allow scabs to work along side us there is one at the moment who is repositioning for team 380

I'm often asked about thi but legally there is not much we can do about it. If a company wants to employ them they will but they must know that each and every scab is known and their engagement creates tension in the workplace. I somehow think that companies like this tension but it is certainly counterproductive.

In the current system a conehead who get EIR for their first license gets about 3 levels. I believe the company and union are using the EBA and these new LAMEs as a bargaining tool for the new generation. Since they will be B1 and sign in all 5 categories it would seem fair that they enter the system at the same level as an initial EIR LAME, but apparently this isn't so.


The new LAMEs who pick up a 380 ticket do not fit into the pay stucture easily. If the company had it their way they would just say right, first licence you go to level 4. We say that they have first licence but the 380 sits outside the structure and attracts a dollar value of 6 points plus 4 for the B1 conversion. Problem is that they haven't converted anything, they just went straight there. We are currently trying to work through these issues as although nothing was converted, the third trade was picked up similar to an EIR LAME. An outcome to these discussions will be announced in a couple of weeks. These guys aren't being used as a bargaining tool by either party, I think that is just a cynical view of the complicated situation, I can understand blokes viewing the company motives with cynicism but we have always played this stuff with a straight bat.

No movement at EA meeting last week readers. The 16th of February draws closer and Qf have been well informed that we want something on the table by then. We aren't going to give them 12 months back pay to threaten us with this time around.

[airsupport]

Steve,

As you know I am retired now and have absolutely nothing to do with this, just my curiosity wants to know something, no secrets and nothing to do with details.

Just wondering how amicable/friendly/cordial are your negotiations with Qantas over this EBA while this truly disgusting business is still going on at Sunstate? :confused:

[Bootstrap1]

Level 3 for the new LAMEs is an absolute joke Fed Sec , please tell us you are not going to let the new generation of LAMEs start by going backwards. Surely level 4 should be the absolute minimum

[Millet Fanger]

If you look at the Fed Sec's post, QF want the new A380 LAME's to start on Lvl 4, the ALAEA are arguing for a higher entry level. Where do you get Lvl 3 from?

[Bootstrap1]

Level 3 is the talk going around, for mechanical and level 5 for avionics. It is just talk but in this place bad news seems to be the news that comes true

Another thing why wasn't this already sorted? These guy have been doing their training for nearly 2 years, some now have their B1 and A380 tickets from CASA and now they are still waiting for the bureaucracy before they can become LAMEs inthe qf system.
Did anybody think that one day AMEs would someday become LAMEs and this would need to be sorted.
I think it was shortsightedness from both the company and the union.

[Nepotisim]

Maybe the AME's were shortsighted and shouldn't have started the course until the payment options were decided? :eek:

Never going to happen.:hmm:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

And maybe some of these AMEs should have advised the ALAEA of what they were up to before they started and we may not have been so shortsighted. Instead we had some enquiries from them as they were finishing their training. Now we have to mop up the mess and make sure they get paid correctly.

What is on the table at the moment is this -

Mech lvl 3 plus 6 point dollar payment for 380 plus 4 point dollar payment for B1.

AV lvl 5 1/2 plus 6 point dollar payment for 380 plus 1 point dollar payment for B2.

[MEA332]

I am curious to know if the rest of us non A380 guys who will be converting our Lic to part 66 B1 and/or B2, will we also be getting a payment once our Lic. has been converted over with CASA?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

That's still under negotiation as part of the EA discussions. Another complicated beast though with full B1's, B1 limited etc.... ATM the full B1 is 4 points at the dollar value sitting outside the pay structure.

[EWANQF]

Fed Sec,me thinks the wording for the next EA regarding training(up to B1 standard), for the next generation of aircraft will have to be loophole free and fair,so the QF engineering management don't get to pick their buddies.I also think that there should be some recognition for LAMES that have completed the B1 training off there own back(which CASA will acknowledge with the new Licencing System anyway.)

[MEA332]

How is it Fed. Sec. that the B2 is only 1 additional point?

Is the ALAEA planning on having the B2 guys pick up full B1 ratings so 90% of Avionics dont become redundant?

[division1]

So the annualised salary is a prohibitive cost impact on lsl entitlements?
I made a rough guestimate of the median lame on 80,000 with 20 yrs service and 6 months LSL at hand.
If his shift loading was 35% and applied to this accumulated LSL it would generate a burden of $14,000. So fcuking what? this will be paid over the next 20 years when the hypothetical lame uses his LSL. They will be making interest on this money held in kind the whole time.
FFS, the real ongoing cost of this scheme would be something like $14,000/20 years, or $13.46 per week. Plus $1.34 super contribution.
It's about time, EBA6?, this should be one of the basic givens to us. After all, it seems the industry standard. if you don't receive shift allowance payments your already on a wage annualised salary. The company wastes time getting assurances from the president that pia is not being considered. They should rather get it from the coalface, because thats where it WILL be comming from.

[600ft-lb]

How is it Fed. Sec. that the B2 is only 1 additional point?

Is the ALAEA planning on having the B2 guys pick up full B1 ratings so 90% of Avionics dont become redundant?

B2 isn't redundant.

The B1 licence is designed around 1 guy needed on the ramp instead of 2. That's how they're used literally everywhere else in the world - which in reality.. re-lamps, black boxes, elec reconnects, bonding checks... its not rocket science.

A B1 cannot sign for an avionic system. B2's are still required in all airlines, it may not be as currently where its a mix of 30-40% av-mech ratio like it is now on the line but they're most definitely a requirement in real aircraft maintenance.. ie base.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

How is it Fed. Sec. that the B2 is only 1 additional point?



By attaining the B2, an avionics bloke does not pick up an extra trade. He already has 10 points for that (radio).

[ampclamp]

fed sec , did you get any feedback on CN's state of the nation meeting with managers, DMMs, senior LAMEs etc the other day?

[Ngineer]

The B1 licence is designed around 1 guy needed on the ramp instead of 2. That's how they're used literally everywhere else in the world - which in reality.. re-lamps, black boxes, elec reconnects, bonding checks... its not rocket science.


Neither are tyre pressures, tyre/brake changes, engine oils or walk-arounds I guess......

Whilst careless and ignorant perceptions such as these are brandied about, and whilst people rush to take over other trades (that would otherwise take years of experience and training to achieve), we are doing ourselves a great injustice.

One could argue that all work at Line work falls into the "Cat A Certifier" ball park. Then what path would our level of safety and quality follow?

[Bumpfoh]

Fair suck of the sav here guys.

If you are genuinely concerned or have legitimate questions around CAR30 to CASR100.66 conversion then rather than posting endless questions and sometimes snide responses why not call the office or SP directly.

Some of the stuff posted here is only giving the company stooges ideas and gives an impression of division within the ranks which I know doesn't exist after the last EBA debacle.

As you no doubt saw from the last company propoganda notice they read these forums and treat what is written as bona-fide.:ugh:

Note to company stooges: it's a rumour network!:rolleyes:

[Jet-A-One]

If you want to winge about who signs for what in the 66 system direct your frustrations at CASA! I think you'll find that horse has well and truly bolted...

The fact of the matter is the greasers have to pick up more trades if they're going to sign for new aircraft. Obviously they're entitled to more money with the extra responsibilities that entails. Much the same as you'd expect a cone that certifies EI and R to get more money than a greaser gets on the legacy fleet...

So get over it and let the rest of us discuss the Enterprise Agreement!

[sky rocket]

Looks like SAM is trying to get through plenty of A checks prior to Feb 16. Having a leave ban in place is a bit raw. What happened to bringing in the casuals for the extra work or maybe o/t?

[the rim]

right on divi 1 annualised salery all the way......dont want to stir up a hornets nest but even in the old system mech lames were the only ones to sign the MR in the old system or now RTS [QF] and now in the new system they will still be the only ones to do the same,its up to QF to get in some sort of system to allow these B2 guys and girls to be able to sign for this.
Bumpfoh or boofhead pull your head in thats what these forums are all about does not matter if the company read them,I think they know whats happening even if its not posted on here............Rim

[The Black Panther]

I am convinced the storm clouds are gathering, update 11th didn't do it. It shows how unprofessional they are accusing comments on here are offical public statements.
Read the approach taken to the AIPA. Reduce your debt, get a stash of cash together, do some extra reading at work......as much as I hate to say it but it's on again. Last time it cost them $150Mil I am sure they will have learnt from that experience but our best weapons are stored in their garage.

How many core business rules do these donkies want to break and expect the government to keep protecting them.
Don't mix makes in your core business
Don't buy the first of a model
Do your own maintenance and take ownership and care of your assets. You get what you pay for in this world.
Stick to your core business, don't be distratcted. No wonder we are losing Biz class punters.
Fly in your own back yard. Which business every beat competitors in their backyard?
The Leprechaun's asiprations of expanding JQ is a death null for the Red Rat IMHO.
Value your employees as assets not costs.
Speak those those that know the business and share the ownership with them. Don't keep octracizing them.

Prepare brothers.

[Jet-A-One]

I agree Rim and Div1, The annualised salary should be top of the priority list- even ahead of the wage claim IMO.

Also the B1/B2 and 380 to be given a points value like any other licence...

[LAME2]

I ask again, how much are you willing to "pay" for annulised salary?

5%

10%

15%

The bean counters will only consider it if it is revenue neutral for the company.

So you currently earn $100,000.00 PA

Will you consider annualised salary at $95K, $90K or $85K reasonable?

[The Black Panther]

I experienced the Service Quality meeting today and I am worried, worried that the leaders of this iconic company have taken their eye off the ball. The presentation was less than convincing and it seemed the managers were making a presentation they didn’t believe in.

Qantas International is in a fractured state and it will only take one or two industrial disputes to take in it down (to a shadow of it's former self) in my opinion. So while the ALAEA may have a militant executive I am sure they (as well as the AIPA) too known what a synchronised industrial dispute would have on this iconic brand.

I think QF management got it all wrong in aircraft selection, believing an LCC was the Golden Goose in a land down under and partaking in the M$150 dispute.
Without going into too much detail I find it difficult to line up the B777-300 against the A330-200. Singapore, Thai, Brunei, Malayasian,JAL even Air New Zealand all chose the B777 (as well as some A330) but we were a Boeing customer. But what did Qantas do, buy Airbus, deck them out for domestic service and then waste M$20 refurbishing them for International. The Hyundai’s of the sky. They now keep us gainfully employed with a terrible maitnence record while Dugong isn’t far behind.

Let’s face it we are hours from anywhere downunder. LCC works well in Europe with different country destinations just hours (sometimes minutes apart). There is a place for LCC’s in Australia but it is limited to domestic and short haul International destinations. Air New Zealand dropped Freedom years ago and I think AJ would have JQ landing at Tom Bradley. Move JQ into Europe? Wake up!

With capacity problems we need to find some and find it fast. Do we cut LCC or do we let the FS dwindle?

Who didn’t have the guts to tell Mr M Harris...”it won’t work Muzza” First of all he was going to get rid of anyone “who didn’t want to be here”...fair enough, so 20 odd put their hands up in Brisbane. Next came the dispute....Holy Sh$t! ...stuff that, let’s can the redundancies (keep the expenses) and get rid of the customers (goodbye revenue). What a great idea lets piss our external revenue suppliers off!

So here we are with plenty of labour, no line customers and no third party work in our hangars either and the same EXPENSES!!!.

What did Air New Zealand do last year “Our engineering businesses have been busy over the past 12 months gearing up for aircraft arrivals and taking on an increased amount of third party work.” http://www.airnewzealand.com.au/assets/Resources-AirNZ/Investor-Centre/2010-airnz-annual-review.pdf

I know we don’t want forced redundancies (Sorry Fed Sec) but if ever QF needed to reduce the wages expense account it’s now. I doubt they would run out of volunteers to go. We all know we are excess labour in line and there is a portion of us who would be happy to go. Management says we need to move on, so do they.

Redundancies is not a stupid business decision, all major corporate’s use them to bring forward expenses and remove them from future years while consolidating and creating a more efficient workforce. Not to mention getting rid of some deferred benefit super accounts. Nah...Forget it; let me see out my six more years in Division One.

Wake up AJ! Get out of the Jetstar nebula and come back to earth. QF needs to focus on our core business, meet our customer needs, use redundancies intelligently, and deliver a quality Full Service product both domestically and internationally. We made 90years but our health issues won’t see us make 100 and you will be remembered as the CEO who took us down (Back luck Geoff).
Qantas aircraft punt comes unstuck (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-aircraft-punt-comes-unstuck-20110124-1a2v6.html)
Plenty of flight risk in Qantas catch-up (http://www.smh.com.au/business/plenty-of-flight-risk-in-qantas-catchup-20110209-1an0z.html)

[Sunfish]

A simple check of Black Panthers posting history reveals that he is a troll spreading Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.

He made Four posts between 2008 and 2011. Now he suddenly "wakes up" and starts posting about the "dire" state of QF International (note the sudden change of emphasis from QF being an international airline with domestic feeders, to being a domestic airline with an international "division"?). The flurry of posts in 2008 about the LAME EBA also give the game away.

When will the other trolls appear?

[Bumpfoh]

in the old system mech lames were the only ones to sign the MR in the old system or now RTS [QF]

Not so rim, many a coney has a QF issued aircraft specific Transit Authority which allows them to sign a RTS for up to daily inspection level (read check 2 2 with strings attached) under the CAR 30 system.

Correct in saying this option is removed under 100.66.

Simply voicing my opinion rim, no need to play the man!:ok:

[BrissySparkyCoit]

A simple check of Black Panthers posting history reveals that he is a troll spreading Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.

I think Black Panther is simply telling it how it is Sunfish. I haven't participated in the "service quality" meeting yet. Although when I do, I think I am going to find it difficult to be interested.

Most of us just want one thing.

Certainty.

Unfortunately, what we are provided with is constant uncertainty and negativity in an attempt to blackmail us at EBA time.

Either tell us honestly that there is a future or tell us that they are going to pi$$ us all off and outsource/contract out engineering operations. Some goodwill and honesty mite just go a long way.

Then again, Sydney was told "We are setting up Avalon for overflow work only"
In the end, Sydney was shut down and Avalon remained.
The reason for shutting Sydney down?
"We need to make space for the expansion of the domestic terminal".
Late last year they announced a $20.2 million renovation of H245, the ex Heavy Maintenance hangar that was "shut down" 5 years ago on the premise of needing room for the domestic terminal.

Honesty does not seem to be their forte.

Fear and uncertainty is generated by people further up the tree than Mr Panther!

[airsupport]

How did B1 and B2 get involved in all this? :confused:

Do Bananas In Pyjamas work for Qantas now? :confused:

[Jethro Gibbs]

Either tell us honestly that there is a future or tell us that they are going to pi$$ us all off and outsource/contract out engineering operations.

Funny thats what they tell Avalon staff as well This is something that the ALAEA should call them out on using the same threat at two sites if they are going to go well go and let everyone get on with there life.

[the rim]

my point was that a conehead could NOT sign RTS untill he was issued a TA by Qantas read my post....same with the new system he/she wont be able to sign RTS unless they are issued with extra quals ....rim

[The Black Panther]

Now he suddenly "wakes up" and starts posting about the "dire" state of QF InternationalYou are right Sunfish I have awoken but only due to yet another game of PICK THE SOAP by EBA Games. I am definitely no troll.

QF being an international airline with domestic feeders, to being a domestic airline with an international "division"?and again Sunfish you are spot on. The Int just aint was it used to be and no one seems to care.

[Ngineer]

Then again, Sydney was told "We are setting up Avalon for overflow work only"
In the end, Sydney was shut down and Avalon remained.
The reason for shutting Sydney down?
"We need to make space for the expansion of the domestic terminal".

The real reason that GD and DC shutdown Sydney heavy was because they anticipated having a new fleet of aircraft by now, and serviced by another MRO (of course).