Am I mad???

[Jonny36]

Hello forum.....first post so don't bite....please.

I am in the fortunate position of having quite a substantial amount of savings. Enough to ALMOST be able to pay for a full Ab-initio course from some of the well established trainers....no names mentioned I presume....but the costings involved are in the region of approx £60000 (I would still have to secure a small loan as well however).

I am in a pretty good job that I could take a career break to do the training and so after training I could go back to my original job. Obviously from that point on would then be looking for a job as a pilot.

Now my question is.....would it be complete madness (in current climate) to go off and do the training. Are job prospects that bad at the moment that it just wouldn't be worth it (and I am also 36 years old!)?

I am passionate about flying and would love my career to be as a pilot....:sad:

[vserian]

If i was you, honestly, i would not go for it. if i am in the 20s then i would have considered but at your age and current situation its not really a wise move to give up your job and invest 60K pounds into flight training.

If you are very much passionate about flying, you can get a PPL then rent a plane and fly like 1 or 2 hrs in the weekends....but for a career, its a very big risk.

[Prophead]

Hi

Im guessing by the £60000 that you have been looking at a full time integrated course. Why not go the modular route? get your PPL (You might want to look at doing it in the USA at this time of year ) Then enrol on a distance learning ATPL groundschool. Its not that hard and can easily be done around a job.

Get a share in an aircraft at a local airfield and get the hours done. You can then look at doing the CPL/IR full time over a month or two. You will save yourself a fortune on the training and also earn money whilst doing the ATPL's.

[Bullethead]

Am I mad???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why not? The rest of us here are, mad about flying that is!

A good mate of mine was a teacher for years and decided to go flying at the tender age of 34. He is now a B767 Captain.

I'd say live your dream, I did. I was halfway through an engineering degree when I decided that I really wanted to fly so I dumped engineering, joined the RAAF and haven't look back since.

Regards and go for it.
BH.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

If you are certain that the airline life is for you, then go for it. Best thing you can do is ask airline pilots, if you know any, what they like and dislike about their chosen lifestyle and match it to what you ask from life.

Be very sceptical about their advice regarding training and job opportunities though, as most of us airline pilots are lazy and completely lose interest and track of what it requires to break into the airline world at a given time. What was true a year or two a go, is probably not true anymore, so when a guy tries to lecture you on how it was when he was new 20 years ago, you can use it for nothing but an anecdote.

[JB007]

Do A LOT of research!

I would suggest focusing on what will be available to you approaching 40 years old against your own expectations of what this career will bring you.

In the past 2 years i've been amazed at what i've seen and still seeing from employers...

[magicmick]

I would say that you are not mad, just make sure that you go into this with your eyes open. You may well have a nice pot of money but can you cope with losing it and not finding employment as a pilot?

I don’t know your personal situation with mortgage, family/ kids etc but paying for flying training at the moment is huge financial gamble and you should never gamble what you cannot afford to lose.

I would definitely advise against giving up well paid stable employment to train full time, as mentioned in an earlier reply keep the job and the income, fly at weekends/ evenings with distance learning for the written exams. You can do everything up until CPL/ MEIR without stopping work, you might even be able to get a CPL done over Summer evenings/ weekends at some schools.

Either way you can get the last part of your training done in a couple of months (weather permitting) and you would not need to start the final part until you notice a definite upturn in recruiting.

To get up until you are ready to start CPL/ MEIR should cost approx £20k and you can then defer the most expensive training until the outlook is not so bleak and you will have kept your job and income all along. If the fabled better days never arrive you will have lost far less and earned far more than if you had given up work and got everything done as fast as possible.

As for your age I don’t think that it will be a big issue if things do improve, in previous good times freshly qualified pilots in their 40s were getting employed.

A friend did his MEIR with me 2 years ago when he was 48, he then financed his own turbo prop rating and has just been offered a one year contract flying in Bangladesh at 50 years old.

Just be realistic about your age, you’ll never be a captain on an ultra long haul airline making rock star money and you must be prepared to work hard for less money than you’re on right now and to possibly move to another part of the world to achieve it.

The final choice is yours, whatever you decide to do I sincerely wish you every success.

[mannios]

Hi,
I did my CPL MEIR and MCC course last year. I was 36 when I was finished. I have not gained any employment since and am nearly two years qualified. nothing. You will need alot more than 60k to complete all the training too if you are to include MCC course and paying for your type rating. more like €120,000

I am in a similar position to your self in that I am lucky to have a good job at the moment and not too concerned.
Im glad I did the CPL MEIR as I can use it to fly around with my work and weekend trips etc.
I would take the modular route first. Do your PPL and then take it from there.

[Jonny36]

Thank you everyone for your replies.

I have done a LOT of research...but that was probably 6-7 years ago....doesn't time seem to go quicker as you get older :rolleyes:. I am guessing a few things have changed in that time?

I am particularly interested in magicmick's comment though about being realistic and also "you’ll never be a captain on an ultra long haul airline". I know I'm (getting) older but does it take so long to become a captain?

I wonder could that comment be explained....because I would have thought (and it is) that would be my goal anyway.

To answer the question, yes I am (or at least was) looking at a full time integrated course....that I believe includes a MCC course. Actually it is bit more than £60000, especially if you include the accomodation.

Partly the reason I was (or am....oh decisions decisions...:confused:) looking at the integrated course was BECAUSE of my age. The idea is to get training done a.s.a.p. and try and make myself at least available for employment.

Thank you again in advance.

J

[Ptimat31]

Honestly, do as you want. If you listen to people that explain that you'll never find a job, you'll go nowhere... I'm doing my ATPL on top of my work and I'm 36. One of my friends just got 2 offers and he is my age. You will be less young that others F/Os in the job but you'll have more experience in life and certainly it will help. It is not good or bad, it is different.

[downwind24]

jonny, follow your heart mate , im 36 and have had a PPL for 6 years. I have just finished the ATPL's and start the CPL/IR on Monday already having 213 hours.

I was always on with the groundschool but time , job etc always got in the way when suddenly my sis in law dies of cancer at age 33 ,my personal kick up the harris.

I know that if i do this and dont get a job then i tried and i wont wake up at 50 and think what if ! A friend of mine got his first job at age 39 , almost 40 with TUI on the 737 , hes now on the TR for the A320 with Qatar 4 or so years later.

Each to their own i say and every situation is different, find a local flying club , theres generally a wealth of knowledge there and many people in many different situations.

Good Luck whatever you decide to do :ok:

[Dane-Ger]

As has been written before, It's all about what you expect from your flying when you are finished.

I am 35 now, started my ATPL distance learning and renewed my PPL at 32 (got my PPL at 17 but had a long break from flying). I too was in the lucky position to be able to fund almost all my training through savings, although this was modular and cost me around £37,000.

I consider myself to be incredibly lucky that I have some part time flying jobs doing air taxi, para dropping, photo flying etc. It doesn't pay enough to keep my wife and four kids in food and clothes :-) so I am also back at my old job as a teacher, part time, on sessional basis to make ends meet.

Now, the crux of the matter is that I do not for one minute regret paying the money it cost to get my commercial license, I love not having to pay to fly and actually getting (very little :-) money for it.

On the other hand, any dreams I might have had of flying right hand side of a big jet are, to be realistic, going to be very difficult to realize. The problem with being "older" especially at this time, is that the clock is really against us.

I know people have mentioned friends at 40 and older getting jobs a few years ago, but that was unfortunately a few years ago, times are very different just now, although there will of course always be a few lucky exeptions.

Ryanair's self sponsored scheme and Easyjet through CTC seem to be concentrating on the under 30's generation these days effectively ending the only route for low houred wannabies over 30 at this time (this of course could change in the future)

The problem with the traditional route of building hours via GA flying and/or instructing is that to gain the couple of thousand hours required before the other companies will look at your CV is going to take a few years, at which time we are pushing 40, where again time is against us.

The alternative is, of course, to jump the que and pay a type rating and then buy 500 hours on that type, that is, of course, a totally different argument for another thread and no guarantee of success!

I love the flying I do, every day I meet new people and learn something new, I also know that the investment I made in my training will probably never pay off in terms of wages, I would have been better sticking with my steady full time £35,000 a year teaching job with good pension. BUT, life is short and I enjoy it much more when I am flying two or three times a week.

So we are back to the original question, what do you expect from your flying?
The money spent on an integrated course would get you a share in a nice aircraft and lots of great flying trips with friends and family, on the other hand, flying commercially is challenging and very rewarding.

good luck

regards
D-G

PS, you mention integrated because of the time factor, you can actually do it quicker modular than you can integrated.

[samdaman]

am wearing the same shoe as some of you guys. not sure if its a good thing, but i am 28 this year and have a stable job that pays the bills in a foreign country.

i see big shiny jets take off and land next to my office (desk job :ouch::rolleyes::rolleyes: ) and wonder when i can sit in one of them and see my current office go pass by. i am begining to think age is against me and i still need another year to save up to finish off my Instrument Rating.

At the end of the day, we all want to fly whether its a 737 or a dash 8. i hope the time is not too far when we realise the dream and I wish everyone the best.

Samdaman

[Reverserbucket]

"you’ll never be a captain on an ultra long haul airline".

I can give you an example:

- Basic training U.K. Self-improver (modular) age 17, CPL/IR 21.
- PPL Instructor for two years
- First airline job at 23; F/O 50 seat turbo-prop UK operator.
- Type-rating on 70-100 seat jet at 25. Same operator.
- Command at 26 - same operator but back to the prop fleet.
- Moved to large U.K. charter operator at 28. F/O Airbus 320/330.
- Age 31 moved to fastest expanding and largest carrier in UAE. F/O LH.
- A330/340 Command with same 'ultra long haul airline' at 37.

So a consitent and progressive career path so far which I would say is fairly typical of many guy's I know and it's taken 20 years. Flying the turbo-prop was great fun in both seats and charter was good for the experience but if you want a bit more in the way of pay and lifestyle LH has much to offer with the right company.

Good luck but, as said, be realistic. Despite a lot of research you appear to lack an understanding of the mechanics of airline seniority which hopefully posters here can help you with. Personally, and with the market beginning to turn around, I'd go integrated (fastest) which would include MCC, plan for a good type-rating and (despite dispising the principal behind the scheme) look towards pay-to-fly as a means of securing the first job before reaching 40.

[Prophead]

As has been said, you can do the modular route quicker then the integrated. Its possible to do the exams in 4 months if you work hard. It depends on whether you have the time and commitment to study around work and family etc. I did mine on the train to work and lunchtimes plus evenings and managed to juggle it around family etc. This also meant i was getting paid at the same time. It will also allow you to speed up or slow down the training around the market,

I know you have the funds but do you really want to be sat in some classroom and paying for it knowing you could be studying in your own timeframe probably quicker and getting paid at the same time.

Get your hours up either in the US or with a cheap share at the local flying club and enjoy the flying. Im always amazed at the number of people that say they really want to be a pilot but seem to view the real flying part of the training as some kind of obstacle to be overcome as quickly and cheaply as possible. This seems to be the way the integrated schools look at it as well. Whilst doing your hourbuilding you should fly as many types of aircraft and as many diffetent types of flying as you can. Get a tailwheel rating and do some grass stripping, maybe some aeros, get a cheap share and do some flying/camping around the uk and europe.

Despite some of the posts on here you do not need to spend all of your hourbuilding practising CPL standard flying. This is the time where you should be enjoying it and becoming comfortable in the air and making decisions. Maybe even scaring yourself a bit. This is what the hourbuilding is for, turning you from fresh PPL to commander of the aircraft. Leave the epaulettes for later and get involved in the local flying club. You will make better contacts here than you will at any integrated school. My local airfield is crawling with airline captains. There will also be opportunities that open up which you have not even thought of plus the chance to backseat and watch other more experioenced pilots.

The I/R CPL can be done relatively quickly and with the amount you have saved going modular plus the extra you have earnt whilst doing the exams could be used to pay for a TR if you get offered a job that requires it paying up front.

I dont see that you need to rule out anything in terms of long term career aspirations. You never know what jobs will present themselves in the future and as long as you willing to take the opportunities as and when they arise.

If I were you I would be booking my first PPL lesson and getting my class 1 medical if you haven't already.

Good luck.

[downwind24]

Prophead - A great post :ok:

[pilotmike]

Prophead makes some excellent points which dispell much of the 'perceived wisdom' and general myths peddled by the uninformed masses:

Myth - Integrated is faster

Myth - You're too old at 38

Myth - It is harder to get a job if you trained Modular.

Fact: Integrated goes at ONE speed - modular goes at YOUR speed.

Fact: You are NOT too old in your 40s

Fact: Good, well trained pilots are employable whichever way they trained.

To put some meat on the bones of these facts, take my route to Commercial flying, getting my first job as FO flying jets aged 43:

I completed my modular training in just 8 months, from ordering a Groundschool course, to completing ATPL exams, CPL, multi, IR and MCC. OK, so I did this full time, without the encumberance of a job, but anyone who insists that 'Integrated is faster' is not being honest.

I started modular training age 43 and was flying a passenger jet just 1 year later age 44. Thankfully my age closed the door to any chance with the ever-popular route to flying with a Ryanair SSTR, so I was forced to focus my efforts on other opportunities which undoubtedly have turned out to be more rewarding.

The modular / integrated debate never was an issue whatsoever. It has never been mentioned or nor has it affected me at all.

The 2 key issues for me were the ability to be flying commercially within 1 year of starting training, and the total cost of training being considerably under £40,000. Neither of these would have been possible had I chosen an integrated course.

As already said - if you're at all serious about becoming a pilot, go do a trial flight, and go get a class 1 medical!

[downwind24]

PM , again great post and fills me with confidence. Im 36 and start the CPL/IR in the morning. Iv also heard that at 36 RYR will not even invite me for interview even with a lifetime of experience that a 20 year old doesn't have , strange !

Biggest worry i had was age as il be 37 when i will be applying for jobs!

[demomonkey]

Hi Jonny

You're only as mad as I was. I did something very similar in 2005 and was lucky enough to graduate in 2007 when recruitment was at its peak. I love my new career. I don't seriously miss my old life despite earning less but also working less. The greatest thing about being a pilot apart from marvelling at the glorious beauty of this planet from ~FL390 is knowing that when that parking brake goes on at the end of the day, that's it.

But I have to stress that I was lucky. In 2003/4 recruitment started picking up post 9/11. Can we definitely say the few vacancies that are being advertised now are again those green shoots of growth? No, but neither could we say that in 2003/4. Hindsight is a wonderful gift only bestowed upon philosophers and armchair pundits!

The question I had to answer myself was, "Am I prepared to try and accept with good grace that I could fail". Only you know that answer for certain but I think your research and choices show that you have serious and realistically weighed up your options.

Good luck, DM :ok:

[Bealzebub]

The reality with any advice offered is that it is either an observation from ones persons perspective or it is their opinion. Be careful of the "fact, fact, fact, myth, myth, myth" type answer. Things are rarely that clear cut, and isolated examples of something do not in themselves warrant the title of myth or fact.

There are many people oblivious to the realities of what is happening who want validation for their plans or ideas rather than a picture of what is happening. Ultimately any advice can only be based on what the respondent actually knows, has experienced, believes, or opines about. It is up to the questioner to decide what they want to do with that information.

In my experience of these forums, few (but not all) people heed any advice other than that they want to believe from onset. That of course is fair enough.

Would I advise somebody to walk in to a casino with £100,000 to lay on the table? Generally speaking no. However if they had a desire to do so, and this sum was a small part of their savings or disposable income, then that advice would be weighted on what I would do, rather than the negligible risk it would represent to themselves. On the other hand, if this sum were theirs or somebody elses life savings, then that same advice would be embellished with warning or strong caution. Nevertheless the decision would of course still be theirs to make.

In some of the examples given above, things may be possible, however that doesn't make them the norm, nor in the majority of cases very likely. Common sense is a useful but sometimes rare tool when absorbing information or advice from any source. The level of risk is very dependent on each individuals circumstances, and it is an assesment of that risk that each person needs to decide for themselves. For the majority of people there will always be a significant and very real risk involved, and this shouldn't be dismissed by tales of what is Black or white, or fact or myth.

Tread carefully.

[BigGrecian]

The idea is to get training done a.s.a.p.

This is a big downfall of students in this age bracket. They rush into the training with the first provider who can fit them in, and it ends up hurting them more in the long run.

There is normally a reason why some schools have instant availability...

There is no rush!

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Can anyone explain to me how "life experience" makes you a better pilot?:D

[student88]

There is more to being a pilot then just being able to press a few buttons. Life experience counts for a lot in this game.

[Reverserbucket]

Can anyone explain to me how "life experience" makes you a better pilot?

It doesn't but it might make you more interesting company in the bar :}.

[redsnail]

£60,000 is a lot of money. It doesn't matter what age you're are.

If you can genuinely say "I can afford to lose that much money without seriously impacting my retirement or my family" then go for it.

If you cannot. Then the general advice of "plan for the worst and hope for the best" holds true.

As with investments, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
easyJet and Ryanair (and NetJets Europe) all had record growth in the past 10-15 years. They absorbed a lot of pilots both experienced and inexperienced. Now that growth has either halted, reversed or slowed right down.

Will it revert back to how it was 3-4 years ago? No one knows. Probably not. There might be a small burst around 2014-2016 but there's still a lot of pilots out there to be "absorbed".
Also, the game has changed. Now a days the lo-cos rightly or wrongly want brand new 200 hour guys that they can charge silly money for a type rating and pay ridiculously low amounts of money to.

This seems to have slammed the door shut to the turboprop guys for the time being.

So, one poster said that it is unlikely you'll be an ultra long haul captain. He's probably right. (esp in an airline with strict seniority - as most operators of ultra long haul jets are)

My advice? Get a class one medical done if you haven't already. If you don't want the expense, get a diabetes check, blood px, and eye sight - esp for colour blindness.

Sit down and ask yourself, can you survive on £20K for 2-3 years post training - if you get a job?
If you don't get one and you've gone back to your old profession, can you afford to keep your IR current?
A low houred 45 year old is not very attractive to the airlines.
Remember, just because you'll hold a CPL with IR and ATPL subjects completed, does not mean you'll pass the interview/psych/sim tests.
Sorry.

I genuinely hope you prove me wrong. :)

[Uegoist]

you wll be another unemployed pilot...living with mom and dad...
do you really think an airline will hire a 200h pilot who can fly only a light multiengine in the pattern.

guys, you need a reality check. !!! mayb the market for 200h will improve, in 2017...:ugh:

[INNflight]

Do A LOT of research!

^^^^^YES!

If you REALLY want to go for it, be prepared that you will most likely not end up with major airlines, they usually have age limits somewhere around 30.

Be prepared that you will compete with guys a lot younger, and be prepared that you may find yourself next to a captain some 10 years younger than you aswell.

You'll have a shot at it with a lot of dedication and / or ideally knowing a lot of people. Network like hell to get to do glider towing, para dropping, etc. Try to get into flying clubs - people who know people etc!

I would also strongly suggest to go for the modular route....why?!

A.) You can do it while working your regular job = income on the side!!!

B.) You get to know a lot of people in the process at your local fields who may come in handy later on.

C.) Oxford and the likes are mainly mass-producing young airline pilots. You don't exactly fit the scheme I'd say. They won't really help you getting a job either.

MOST IMPORTANTLY:

D.) For 60,000 GBP you can EASILY get all your licenses if done modular. No need for an extra loan or more money to spend. Seriously.

Integrated takes you by your hand and walks you through it all, and you pay for it. Modular you'll have to do most of your research and work on your own, however it pays off!!!

Good luck, for whatever you'll do.

BTW:
Also be aware that a job may not be around the corner of your house. Have you got family? Would they relocate for you? Serious issue!

[stefair]

Can anyone explain to me how "life experience" makes you a better pilot?

IMHO, an older person is more likely to make decisions based on their life experienced gained. I have met a couple of guys at the outfits I have flown for and both of them made decisions I would have never made, only just to build the hours. Safety and abiding rules came second. Those of us flown in the GA know what I am talking about. Companies operate on very little margins so the pressure is on us. Some people will go with it, some will not. And I think younger people are more likely to let themselves get pushed around. Not always safe if you ask me.

Jonny,

Yes, I also do think age is against you but I have talked to and met a few guys who made it to the airlines despite being in their late 30s.

A good friend of mine trained with a UK school. One of the instructors there had a friend, also an instructor himself, who got his license in his late 30s or early 40s. I cannot remember it exactly. He then left his non-flying job and worked as an instructor for a few years before deciding to go for a CJ SSTR. He got hired straight away coming out of his TR course. I don't know whether that was freelance work or a salary position. Anyway, what I know for a fact is he was in his 40s when with a couple thousand hours in his logbook he got offered a job on a 320 and moved on to that and stayed with that company till his retirement. Yes, those people are rare to find but it does happen.

I think it all depends on the economical situation. If pilots are in demand you will find a job despite your age. But that's the problem, no one can predict when the upturn will arise.

Also, most people underestimate the importance of contacts. If you know the right people - and usually you meet those at airfields, flying clubs, etc. - it's so much easier to get in. I have seen it myself and benefited from knowing someone on the inside. But that's with every other profession. Unfortunately, the flying schools will not tell you that...

I have the strong feeling that the market is about to tip. A lot of hiring going on over on the continent and I think the UK is soon to follow. Yes, LOCOs like RYR and EZY are only looking for the young boys and girls right now, but should the majors open their doors again, they will be first choice and the whole market will start to spin. Those bombarding RYR and EZY with their CVs right now will not accept their Ts and Cs and rather concentrate on those outfits offering better deals. As one of the people at recruiting in AMS said to me, two years ago they could hardly find anyone and now they have 1,500+ CVs sitting on their desk...

I think if you accept the fact that you might not end up flying long haul with a major carrier you can still get a career with flying and a lot of fun out of it. The question you will have to ask yourself is, would you be willing to move for the rest of your life? Will you accept a job with little money? Also, many people tend to want more stability as they get older. But if you want to move up the latter you will have to go where the job is.

So, if you really want it, do it as most here already said to you:

Go definitely modular and get the ticket as cheap as possible.

It can also be much faster than going integrated.

Do have a lot of fun while training. Go to other countries to fly. Often it is cheaper there.

Do fly as many different types as possible to see different aircraft. I myself did my hour building on a taildragger flying into a whole lot of different grass strips throughout the UK and I loved it. That actually also helped me get the job I had before my current one. They particularly asked for people with glider and taildragger experience. Set yourself up as broad and complete as you possibly can be. Do not indicate in your CV you are after that jet job, i.e. avoid courses like that JOC thing. It will only indicate to a TP operator you will not stay for long and they will look for someone else.

Go gliding and join flying clubs, as there are other pilots who already are in the game.

Keep your eyes and ears wide open for any opportunity and go for it no matter what!

Good luck!