Any recruitment likely at Easy?

[Dan 98]

Just wondering if anyone could shed some light on the chances of Easy doing any recruitment for experienced crews in the coming months, given that they are supposedly under crewed now, they must be losing their fair share to the Middle East, BA set to recruit next month, Virgin are rumoured to be looking before the end of the year so Easy will surely lose (as will other airlines of course) some experienced flight deck.

Will these lost crews be replaced with Low houred cadets or will Easy have to replace some of their lost experience?

Would be interested to hear the views of anyone in the know.

Thanks

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

Short answer

YES

Long answer, only for those who have spent some time already operating on the CTC flexi-crew contract or for those who have paid an extortionate amount through PARC aviation/oxford.

Anyone self-respecting pilots who are not willing to line the pockets of CTC need not apply.

regards

FPS

[Dan 98]

FPS

Thanks for the upfront info, a shame all the same but not surprised sadly!!

Cheers

[Best foot forward]

SO the rumour that easy have had 250 resignations recently aren't true then.

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

That is not to say that things won't change. We have already been operating with insufficient crew as has been evident this year. When the exodus happens, we will no doubt have to start looking outside of first officer "cash cows" and recruit people with experience and self-respect.

here's hoping

250 resignations?? I am not in the know regarding recruitment / resignations or anything "managmenty" however 250 resignations from 1500 pilots in the company gives an instantaneous resignation rate of about 16.5% and in my humble opinion seems excessive. Assuming that most of the resignations would be from F/Os and that they account for half the pilots, say 200 from 750 F/Os that is a resignation rate of 27%. Basic maths with wild assumptions but I would say that it highly unlikely. But, then again, I am only a gash shag line pilot so what do I know??

FPS

[Dan 98]

Well time will tell I guess. I'd actually quite like to work for a company like Easy if they ever go back to offering something decent.

I shall not be doing anything that involves taking the lid off the KY Jelly in order to join!!:sad:

[pitotheat]

For those holding out hope of DEP at easy I would suggest look elsewhere. There have been rumours that we will be losing huge numbers of pilots to Emirates and others over the last few months simply have not materialized; even after a self inflicted chaotic summer. There are some departures but not enough for the present system of P2F system not to cope with. If this holds out once BA start to recruit is anybodies guess. Dilution of experience in the RHS does not seem to be an important factor at the moment. A long list of suitably qualified SFOs ready for the LHS means that experience levels of newly upgraded Captains has never been greater. This also has the effect of trapping these experienced SFOs as they wait to log 1000+ hours of command time before looking at their next option. Of course when all these reasons start to unwind themselves the company could really struggle but that is not going to happen soon. At the moment there does not seem to be a reason for the company to adjust it's present recruitment policy. That does not mean that it is right but these are my thoughts. I can only imagine the frustration of those pilots waiting for their next step on the ladder at small charter, freighter and flying clubs up and down the country as well as ex military pilots approaching their option points. Reports of Boeing estimating an extra 1M pilots/engineers in the next 10-20 years may be true but the expansion will be on the other side of the earth not in western Europe. Sorry if that seems downbeat but unless you are a newly minted cadet off one of the approved production lines there are very few good prospects available.

[SinBin]

And just to clear something up, I am on a Parc contract at the mo, and no I have never spent any money. In fact I take a permanernt position at EZY at the end of October, and I take a huge paycut for that. But yes I agree not a good place to work, and this sort of thing should not happen, but when faced with redundancy earlier this year apart from moving abroard, I was stuck for choices! Please don't confuse an experienced contract pilot with a cadet, wholly different things.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

SinBin - you may have ideas above yourself. No one forced you to work for easyJet and there are literally hundreds of pilots queuing up to take your place. From your tone you are clearly one of the BMI guys who faced redundancy earlier this year and were fortunate enough to be picked up by easyJet rather than go to the Middle East or onto the dole. For reasons I cannot understand you and some of your colleagues feel that easyJet is now beneath you, despite being offered preferential permanent contracts. You also feel there is some distinction between 'experienced contract pilots' like yourself and 'cadets' who are 'wholly different things'. You are indeed correct - cadets getting permanent contracts are delighted whereas you just hate easyJet and whine and bleat the whole time about how much you hate working here. Presumably you once had to undergo some sort of flying training to reach your current 'Grand Master' status and were once 200 hour pilots, even if only for a day. A number of our 'cadets' are now getting experienced too - many have had several seasons with us. Feel free to leave any time and return to a company that has, tragically, no strategic plan, no future and little hope. I genuinely feel sad that you and your colleagues have not enjoyed your time here and are desperate to leave. Having had so many negative BMI pilots who now want to bite the hand that fed them I will be surprised if we repeat the exercise in the future. I hope the promised land turns out not to be a disastrous graveyard of broken promises and misplaced hope. EasyJet, for all it's failings, is flying loads of brand new Airbuses, full of passengers, to all sorts of varied and interesting destinations. No, it's not perfect, but you would be hard put not to have at least some enjoyment doing it.

Regarding the recruitment issue, I concur with others - there are a lot of flexicrew pilots on the books now and there is a lot of slack in the system. The numbers of resignations are a closely guarded secret, and clearly there are more to come if Emirates, Etihad, BA and Virgin all start recruitment simultaneously. Nonetheless, my best guess is that we have had around 50+ resignations thus far - not enough to generate a problem.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

From my ten aircraft base there has been one - single - FO resignation to go to the Sandpit.

I detect a lot more interest in the impending BA recruitment though.

However, CTC still have a hold pool. Courses in New Zealand have been filled every month and some of the courses are quite large >14. The end result being a very healthy supply of replacement Flexi-cadets. It is highly arousing for the Beancounters when they replace an experienced SFO with a Flexicrew Cadet..

Fair play to CTC, they didn't let any of their hold pool swimmers drown and they seem to have judged the demand side of the curve well enough to avoid a shortfall in supply.


WWW

[Bealzebub]

Yes, not just easyjet, but throughout the industry, accountants are are increasingly exploiting the cost savings of replacing an experienced First officer with a much cheaper and contractualy flexible cadet.

As pockets of expansion appear in regional markets, and movement is stimulated as a result of that and some pent up routine turnover, opportunities for change and improvement can only be a good thing in the short term. Overseas markets will seek and pay for the experience, however in the longer term it is hard to imagine that (the same ex-pat') accountants in those companies are not also casting an eye on taking advantage of similar cost reductions.

[PAPI-74]

Please explain to me why EasyJet are canx flights daily or leasing in other aircraft, being quite clearly short of pilots to run a proper schedule.
Surely they must begin to recruit soon to avoid anymore damage to their reputation.
Seems at though the bean counters are playing with fire!

[SinBin]

NSF, I'm sorry but what is your point? How very conceited. Tell me, you say we got preferential treatment, how long was it until you got a command, were you ahead of people who were less experienced but had been in the company longer? In your opinion then you had an unfair advantage too. If you think that unfair treatment of anyone is acceptable then that's your problem, you clearly have a vendetta against me and my friends and colleagues (and thank goodness you are in the minority as everyone I meet and fly with is very supportive), I hope to God I don't fly with you!

[pitotheat]

PAPI-74
The company have got it wrong this summer. However, do not mistake being undercrewed through mismanagement with a perfectly legitimate use of charter services to ease us through peak demands rather than have surplus crews for 10 months of the year. This is how to maximize your assets, reduce costs and remain competitive. In the case of ezy the recruitment ban was introduced by the previous CEO no doubt to further his own performance bonus. The blame therefore lies with the then CEO and the AMB that supported him. So we can not blame the beancounters for the miserable summer that crews, staff and customers have just experienced.
I would not expect the company to make any kneejerk reaction to the last few months by opening up the recruitment process; there is no need. Expansion has been reduced, attrition is manageable (at the moment) and there is a ready supply of Cadets. The training department stepped up to the plate at short notice to carry out far more initial and upgrade courses than was originally planned. There is a small increase in the number of trainers to cope with a more realistic number of courses being run over the next 6-8 months. I am sorry to say that there is no need for recruiting DEPs at the moment. The harsh reality is that the environment, at the moment, favours the management. Whilst supply of newly qualified FOs exceed demand all companies will take advantage. Those that do not are failing their shareholders. This is a basic business principle.

[PAPI-74]

Oh well that is OK then. I'll just tell the wife to stock up on Super-Noodles then. I'm sure the kids won't mind till the airlines want experienced pilots once more.;)

[757_Driver]

Those that do not are failing their shareholders. This is a basic business principle.

Utter tosh. Thats the blinkered attitude that bought the world to the brink of financial suicide last year. Most modern MBA's and admin wallahs can't see the world outside of their own very narrow and very poor education and experience. There is quite alot more to running a successful and enduring business than an blinkered obsession on the bottom line. Yes you can make a fast buck like this, but it won't last long.

And yes, I do run my own business as well as flying for a living. And no I don't treat people like piggy banks or cash cows.

[Mr Man]

Totally agree 757 Driver,well said.I too ran a successful business before becoming involved in aviation,and I'm still shocked on a daily business at the sham attitudes and naivety of aviation management decisions.Not sure why it's quite so bad,maybe because alot of it is made up of pilots or frustrated wannabees,whatever the reason,headless chickens comes to mind.

[ZBMAN]

I am sorry to say that there is no need for recruiting DEPs at the moment.

:eek: !!

So we are recruiting cadets by the hundreds, but we cannot recruit experienced pilots? We have never recruited so many cadets. In fact I am wondering if any company has ever hired so many cadets in the whole history of aviation (except Ryanair perhaps, but they are hardly an example to follow ). Are we sure we are not playing with fire here?

Perhaps there is a reason why most "proper" airlines recruit from a number of different experience profiles? It's called balancing the experience levels, it is the cornerstone of aviation recruitment. Once again our orange managers think they know better - I sincerly hope this will not end in tears, as a still need my pilot job until I graduate from my MBA:E

[DirectCF]

Another 44 cadets started their type rating last month, and quite a few SFO sent to the command course. This is how they are planning to solve the crew level problem, at least for the winter period.

But rumours say Mrs McCall is upset with the cost of the insurance policy going up because of the low experience level of EZY crew on the flight deck...

Meanwhile, she said the company needs more people, making the share drop by 6% after this announcement on the LSE.

For the moment, the only way in is via CTC or Parc, on the RHS.
If I were an experienced FO working for EZY for 5 or 6 years, I'd be quite upset to see the company hiring DEC to be honest...

[First.officer]

......can't deny that reading most of the above is sad indeed - i will admit to having a huge desire to join Easy myself if i made the grade (purely selfish reasons including pay, roster and travelling time etc.) - now from what i read (and hear and interpret myself), it appears that for anyone with any kind of experience (me 860 hrs total, 560 jet/multi-crew), the future is definitely not changing, in fact i personally now believe things will never return to a point where this is a viable career.
As an aside, does anyone recall the conversations you used to have saying the hardest thing to do in this industry is get that first job ?? and how when you accrue approx. 500 hrs multi-crew/jet, that doors then start to open ?? to me, that all seems to have changed and it now appears that unless your a guy/gal with 2000+ hrs with a boeing/airbus rating of some kind (500+hrs on type of course), or a newly minted cadet willing to be raped senseless, the market for anyone inbeetween is effectively - well nothing ??!!! or am i just not looking in the right places ??
So, anyone in a similar position to me agree ?? are you finding a similar situation out there in job land ?? are you looking at other career options ?? just being nosey i guess but curious as well.

[Dan 98]

Yeh similiar position for sure. 1750TT / 1500hrs+on the 737, door shut at Easy, Ryanair, Jet2 don't seem interested, not enough for Emirates and wouldn't work for my family situation anyway, will fall way short on hours for Virgin too. Ba yes but no question competition will be very tough so if you don't get in where do you go??????

A bizarre industry for sure........:(

As you say it used to just be tough at the start, now you get screwed in order to get into the industry and screwed again when you want to move up too, until the flow of "minted cadets" dries up it is not going to change, the mad thing is those same cadets will be in the same position in 2-3yrs with no where to go either apart from VA or BA in the UK or the otherside of the world.......!! There won't be room at those companies for us all!!:{

Good luck

[Dartsinsync]

It occurs to me that there are potential problems, being dependent on large numbers of low houred cadets in the short term. When the companies already mentioned, start to recruit in earnest, there will surely be a situation where experience levels start to affect day to day operations.
If sufficient numbers of experienced commanders decide to move elsewhere, you will require replacements who are able to be 'paired' with the low houred cadets.
Whilst there has been a downturn companies have been able to avoid this problem, due to a lot of people 'riding out the storm' but as the jobs market improves and movement starts to happen, I would suggest that minimum experience levels on specific flights will come into play. Therefore the current recruitment policies may well not be as black and white as the 'beancounters' think.

[pitotheat]

Hey guys and girls don't shoot the messenger. If you read my posts you will be in no doubt that I disagree with what is happening regarding recruitment. If you prefer I could spin you something like "I predict in the next 6 months we will be offering TRSS DEP contracts to 100 pilots in the pool" but I regret to say that this would be wrong, raise too many hopes and may prevent some from making plans based on better quality information. As for dismissing some harsh commercial reality as tosh - well the facts speak for themselves. Recruiting cadets at the moment is the flavour of the month.
I too run a small business in my spare time but there is no way I can translate any of my experiences by simply scaling it up by a factor of a few thousand and I doubt anyone reading these pages could do so either.
Anyway I have said enough in this thread, I am truly sorry if my words have dashed any faint glimmer of hope but if I was in that position I would rather work with as accurate information as possible. Good luck to all those seeking their next step.

[RB311]

First Officer,

I think you make a very good point. When I was starting out it was the same, how could one possibly get a foot on the ladder without at least 1000hrs experience.. How do you get that experience without having placed that foot on the ladder? It appeared a vicious circle, with no way in..

How many other industries would consider that the more experience you gain, the less attractive you are as an employment proposition? Become a Registrar at a hospital, and find yourself costed out of the job by a junior doctor.... mmm

LIkewise if I was to cross a bridge i would want to know that the designer had had a lot of experience before being allowed to be let loose on such a safely critical item...., not just a university graduate.

It is a measure of the industry, and the skills of the existing flight decks that so many "junior pilots" have been absorbed without any major problems..

[Dan 98]

I wonder how the Accountants and managers would react if they found out that they were being replaced by graduates with no experience who'd just finished their degrees in Accountancy and Management because they could be paid less for their lack of experience......???!!!:E:E

I'm sure they'd understand it made good business sense and was right for the business and the shareholders!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Mmm...I think not!!

[Craggenmore]

CTC will be training 200+ cadets over the winter to cover the 200+ FO and Captain resignations.

This from a senior CTC training captain I flew with back in July; make of it what you will...............

[RB311]

CTC will be training 200+ cadets over the winter to cover the 200+ FO and Captain resignations.

This from a senior CTC training captain I flew with back in July; make of it what you will...............

Im going to open a flight training school... 200 x100,000 = nice early retirement.....

[Craggenmore]

Yes, I guess so.

CTC used to be lovingly mocked as standing for, "Captains Taking Cash".

This would now appear to be truer than ever if it is £100,000 per person !

[First.officer]

.....sorry if i appear a little too negative, and certainly wasn't reacting to your post Pitot - was just remarking really on my observations with regard to what has happened out there in the marketplace since i started in aviation 10years or so ago. Admittedly i've only been flying commercially for about 3-4 years since i got my first job and in the biz-jet world and at my low level it can take an awful lot of positioning and general messing/buggering about to get the few hours i have today, hence my frustration at how the goal posts have now moved (again ! lol). Still, that's life i guess - and my only problem now is that with the hours i have, it appears that i am worth absolutely bugger all to anyone lol - i appreciate i am lucky to have a job, i genuinely mean that, but the frustration i guess mainly comes from how i was led to believe as we all gained experience, we should generally become more employable in the long-term etc. - seems now it has more to do with whether or not i can get the cash/loan etc. to move my career forward - and i'm not playing that bloody game for starters !
Anyone else out there agree or am i just a plain miserable old git ??

[Pick me Flybe!]

Craggenmore.

Is that 200 including the 40 odd that ctc are type rating at the moment?

If not, that could potentially be 240 inexperienced cadets at easy in around half a year! :eek:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

In fact I am wondering if any company has ever hired so many cadets in the whole history of aviation (except Ryanair perhaps, but they are hardly an example to follow ). Are we sure we are not playing with fire here?


BA in peak late 1990's were taking 240 ish cadets per year. Given that their shorthaul fleet was, and still is, far far smaller than easyJets.. If you contend EZY are playing with fire then BA must have been soaked in petrol dancing around an African campfire smoking a sparkler..


WWW

[PPRuNeUser0178]

But what was the experience level like in the LHS at BA at the time? Ours is rapidly going down and down. Some crew pairings at the moment are not appropriate and new skippers have to spell out the risk to crewing to get it changed, sometimes in small words spoken slowly and possibly written in crayon to get through the " it's legal " and " no violations" standard replies!

[ZBMAN]

BA in peak late 1990's were taking 240 ish cadets per year. Given that their shorthaul fleet was, and still is, far far smaller than easyJets.. If you contend EZY are playing with fire then BA must have been soaked in petrol dancing around an African campfire smoking a sparkler..


Ah yes but did BA at the same time prohibit the employment of experienced pilots? (honest question). Also, can we really compare a BA or LH, or AF cadet with one of our cadets? LH or AF for instance have complete control of their cadet's training from initial recruitment to final line check. What control have we got regarding the "final product". I doubt a LH cadet spends 6 months in the winter doing f-all.
I know for a fact that many colleagues find the CTC cadet product inconstitent: some very good, some quite bad (some of our colleagues have become experts in the TOGA-10 manoeuver:}).

[RB311]

Further more to the BA cadet argument, the BA Cadet Pilot Programme displayed complete commitment from BA. Remember those were the days when BA paid for the training...

The selection was extremely rigorous too, and the ability of the pupil to pay had no say in success... either to get on the course or to pass it.

[Prophead]

What I dont understand is where are all these people getting the money from? I could understand it when the banks were lending and property equity was rising but now? Surely there can't just be a never ending supply out there.

To all you experienced pilots who are now finding it hard to get an F/O job due to the whole P2F thing, why dont you do something about it. The unions are the ones that can stop this but they won't listen to the unemployed 200 hour fATPL's and the captains out there don't seem to care as its not affecting them (yet). It would appear to me that you guys are the ones that should be rallying the unions against this before you find yourselves being replaced by a profit making cadet.

[Craggenmore]

Craggenmore. Is that 200 including the 40 odd that ctc are type rating at the moment?

I don't know the answer to this question.

easyJet also has a current NTC out asking for interested Captains to put their names down for forthcoming Training Captain upgrade courses.

Something is up........

[Dan 98]

Prophead

What I dont understand is where are all these people getting the money from? I could understand it when the banks were lending and property equity was rising but now? Surely there can't just be a never ending supply out there.

Interestingly I noticed CTC are now launching a "Take Off " scheme which is part-time Modular to spread the cost!!! Why would they do that if enough people were able to afford the full-time course??

As you say where the hell are people getting the money.....:ugh:

[Mr Angry from Purley]

757 Man so you run your own business as well as being an aviator.
Sounds like to much time off to me......:\

[Firestorm]

If they are only just in the process of expanding the training cadre then they will not be in a position to expand the training commitment for something in the region of 6-9 months at a guess whilst the existing trainers train the new intake of trainee-trainers, and all are in a position to take new intake crews into the training system. Sounds like a bit of a game of catch up to me.

[stansdead]

So, I must have been imagining the email today.

Upcoming DEC A320 Captain positions, UK & Europe.

Interesting times ahead.

[Firestorm]

So I was wrong. But I was only making my comment based on fresh air(that between my ears), and not on Easy Jet's communiques!

[Shaman]

So, I must have been imagining the email today.

Upcoming DEC A320 Captain positions, UK & Europe.
I think it unlikely that eJ would be using an agency to supply DECs - I suspect that the agency is fishing.

[stansdead]

CTC have provided FO's and Captains to CTC since the start.

They are not fishing and they are not an agency.

[FD3S]

Call from CTC today re 18 month contract for LHS on the 737 Luton base. They were very guarded with any more info. Whats a 'flexible contract'? And I thought EJ were getting rid of the NG?

[SupaMach]

They're leaving slowly. :)

[Beavis and Butthead]

FD3S

Flexible contract is almost certainly a payment per rostered block hour (no basic wage or benefits except staff travel) and no fixed roster pattern. Not quite as bad as it sounds as can make good money if you are flexible and don't mind putting the hours in each month and accepting the lack of life planning ability from month to month. It's comes down to a choice based on personal circumstances. Some hate it, some get on with it and find it's not perfect but it's not too bad after all.

Hope this helps.

[RHINO]

Given Easyjet have announced this morning that they are doing better than they expected maybe they can be a little more 'flexible' in what they are offering. Expect another round of bonuses.:yuk:

When will we ever learn.

[angelorange]

The following comments have been obtained from easyJet's weekly news update;

Pilot recruitment selection days – November 2010

As we have communicated before the only pilot entry point to a permanent easyJet pilot contract will be from the FlexiCrew pilot pool for the foreseeable future. All external recruitment has ceased (and did so 18 months ago) and the previously populated recruitment holding pools have been closed. In order to support our continued and planned expansion into Europe a further number of permanent easyJet contracts will soon become available primarily in France and Italy. All permanent contracts will be offered from 01 January 2010. To ensure that we get the best pilots for these roles we will be holding an open and transparent selection process for these opportunities. Suitably qualified FlexiCrew pilots currently flying for easyJet from both CTC Parc Aviation will soon be invited to apply for these permanent positions. We will be holding pilot selection/ recruitment days on a number of days in November 2010 to ensure that we employ the best pilots for these positions.
More information about the criteria required to apply for these positions in addition to the application process will follow in the coming weeks……watch this space!

[PitchPitch]

Currently, there are approximately 150 CTC graduates who are ready for Type ratings and being with CTC myself in the final 4 months, I've heard a lot of positive things - for us of course...

Looks like the TRs will be done so eJ will have around 50-100 TR'ed cadets by Feb/Mar 2011, depending on how many more they continue to offer jobs to!

Also, answering your question on 'how do they find the money?' - these cadets have either had a BBVA loan tied down on their parent's mortgage, had their parents remortgage their property or have had the money through life insurance payout etc. Please don't assume they are all rich kids - most of them come from quite modest families that have really put themselves out for their sons or daughters to pursue a career they've always dreamed of...

Cost of training is now in the £75,000 (+£living) mark with another £8-10k for the easyJet TR.

Oh yes... one more thing - I'm so glad the experienced pilot community is so welcoming to the new recruits - I get a somewhat hostile attitude from some of the posts here - It's not our fault we chose a viable training provider who seems to be offering the best chance of getting us into the RHS in the shortest time - Can you hardly blame us? If you have a better idea, please do share!! :ok:

SJ

[Dan 98]

SJames

Thanks for the post and confirms what has been put throughout the thread that Easy plan to take many cadets which as you state is good news for you.

I can understand your comment too about "glad the experienced pilot community is so welcoming to the new recruits"......

however I think you'll find for the most part that this is pent up frustration at the state of things not at you guys personally. I for one do not believe the state of this industry can be blamed on people joining it!!!

Remember though the experienced pilot community have worked hard like you and sacrificed just as much but now cannot get a job with the likes of Easy (and others) because we have experience. :ugh::ugh:

You too could be in the same position in 2-3yrs time and I am sure you'd find it as frustrating as we do that someone with no experience has better prospects than you do with your 2,000hrs on type....You'll realise by then that CTC is actually destroying the very industry it is in business to feed...Not in any way blaming you just giving you another angle on things and why some of the posts are worded the way they are!!

It should be the pilot community as a whole and in the individual companies that should unite as a group and stand together to make sure current and future joiners are not exploited in order to enter this industry. For some reason we as pilots are not very good at that bit....:

[CaptainProp]

Suitably qualified FlexiCrew pilots currently flying for easyJet from both CTC Parc Aviation will soon be invited to apply for these permanent positions.

WTF, does this mean that they are "suitably qualified" as FlexiCrew but potentially not for full time employment....? Getting better and better....

[Major Cleve Saville]

I see Norman Stanley Fletcher is vehemently opposed to Direct Entry Captains, which is a bit strange as he was/is one.

Obviously one rule for NSF and one rule for everyone else.

[jb5000]

NSF (I imagine...) is against Direct Entry Captains because there is a growing army of fully qualified SFOs at EZY who are ready for a command. The only reason for the company to accept DECs now would be because they are being offered a B scale contract.

NSF would have been accepted as a DEC when EZY were expanding faster than their SFOs could pass the command course.

"One rule for him etc etc" is a bit too simplistic I'm afraid.

[Major Cleve Saville]

So absolutely no one was disadvantaged by NSF as a Direct Entry Captain?

No one waited longer in the right hand seat because NSF got a command first? DECs will disadvantage F/Os no matter what. The individuals concerned will feel aggrieved for a long time.

Commercial expediency was okay then (i.e. to facilitate expansion) but not now to cut costs?

Either you are a man of principal or you are not, simplistic really.

I can assure you that when he got his first command in easyJet a lot of SFO's felt very disadvantaged.

It is this lack of moral courage that is destroying the industry. Either you stick to your principles, i.e. Direct Entry Captains are unacceptable fullstop, because they disadvantage long(er) serving F/O's or you accept the harsh commercial realities.

[jb5000]

The harsh commercial reality that the company has turned a reasonable profit during a huge recession, and is expected to now exceed its predicted profit for this year despite snow disruption, ash clouds etc? The company wants DECs to save money when they themselves are making lots of it and distributing it with handsome bonuses to management.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect DECs during the early years of a business as it expands aggressively and they either can't find the talent internally or are physically incapable of training the number of SFOs because the training department can't expand fast enough either. It's not ideal but it's understandable. The DECs are then employed on a full time contract that is the same as the SFO can expect in the future.

Trying to undercut loyal SFOs who are ready for command by offering contracts to external candidates at a lower rate is not acceptable. Neither is trying to cut costs on your training department then feigning surprise when they are no longer able to promote SFOs due to a lack of capacity.

[No Country Members]

So absolutely no one was disadvantaged by NSF as a Direct Entry Captain?

No idea, but it is entirely possible EZY were just short of captains back then. Eh? What? Oh dear.

[Craggenmore]

CTC sweeps the nation for more Flexi-Crew

Not content with bankruptcy, its now University debt PLUS £100,000 flying debt.

Students starting university courses in the UK can expect to owe about £23,000 by the time they graduate.

Rising Student Loan Debt | UK Debt Advice (http://www.freedebtadvice-uk.com/2010/06/rising-student-loan-debt/)


All this for £1000 per month after repayments..............You'll be dead first before repaying all this.

Dear all

As in previous years, we have various CTC Wings promotional events coming up and we're looking for volunteers to help out at them please. If you are able to help at any of the below, please get in touch with [email protected] -

2010
11 October - CTC Wings Roadshow - Careers Presentation. Liverpool University. TBC (evening)
12 October - CTC Wings Roadshow - Careers Presentation., Leeds University 1700 hrs
13 October - CTC Wings Roadshow - Careers Presentation., Loughborough University 1830 hrs
14 October - CTC Wings Roadshow - Careers Presentation. Salford University. TBC (afternoon)
14 October - Graduate Fair, Limerick University. 1000 - 1600 hrs
21 October - Graduate Fair, Bath University 1100 - 1600 hrs
25 October - CTC Wings Roadshow - Careers Presentation., Bath University
27 October - Graduate Fair, Loughborough University. 1100 - 1600 hrs
29 October - RAeS Careers Fair, No4 Hamilton Place, London 1000 - 1600
1 November - CTC Wings Roadshow - Careers Presentation., London Metropolitan University, 1300 hrs
5 November - Graduate Fair, Teeside University. 1000 - 1500 hrs
6 November - Flyer Professional Pilots Show, Sofitel, T5 Heathrow. 1000 - 1700 hrs LONDON PROFESSIONAL FLIGHT TRAINING EXHIBITION (http://exhibitions.flyer.co.uk/london.htm) some free tickets avail, contact [email protected]. First come, first served.
13 November - CTC Wings Open Day, Crew Training Centre - Nursling. 1000 - 1630 hrs register at Airline Pilot Training with CTC Wings (http://www.ctcwings.com/europe) (NB FYI Currently oversubscribed so doing a waiting list...next one is now booked for 5 March 2011)
16 November - CTC Wings Roadshow - Careers Presentation. St Andrews University. TBC
17 November - CTC Wings Roadshow - Careers Presentation. Glasgow University. 1500 hrs
18 November - CTC Wings Roadshow - Careers Presentation. Heriot Watt University, Edinburgh. TBC
25 November - CTC Wings Roadshow - Careers Presentation. Southampton University. TBC
29 November - CTC Wings Roadshow - Careers Presentation. Exeter University. 1830 hrs


NB We are also trying to set up Bristol UWE, Queens BFS and poss Dublin and Limerick for a CTC Wings Roadshow...if you have any connections at any of these or other universities you think we should visit, please also contact xxxxxxxxx mailto:[email protected]

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Major Cleve Saville - you are indeed right in saying that I was once a DEC, and also that I am opposed to their further employment. The two positions are entirely compatible. Many people know who I am, and where I came from, so there are no secrets out there. I joined from another company in 2004 and applied online to come to easyJet as a First Officer. My background was that I had previously been a turboprop Training Captain, but was at that time an A320 F/O in a different airline. When I turned up for the interview at easyLand, they told me they were taking a number of Airbus-experienced FOs as DECs and asked if I would like to be one. Like every other person with a brain in their head who was offered the same deal, I discussed the matter with myself for around a tenth of a second and said 'Yes'. I am not aware of a single qualified FO at easyJet at that time who was disadvantaged by what happened, and took the job that was offered to me with much gratitude. The reality was that easyJet required Airbus Captains at a rate they could not generate internally - under such circumstances the employment of DECs seems an acceptable, and indeed necessary, decision for any company. Under the circumstances that exist today where we have hundreds of suitably qualified FOs, then the employment of DECs would be outrageous. I therefore fail to see what your complaint is - my position is completely consistent.

For those that are interested in such matters, there will be over 160 internal promotions at easyJet in the next year. In addition, we will employ 300 new cadet pilots and will internally promote over 20 new Training Captains. As I have said many times before, we are not perfect. Nonetheless, figures like that should lead to some rejoicing by even those with the emptiest of glasses.

[Coffin Corner]

Rejoice for what though NSF? (yay, EasyJet are taking on 300 wannabes, yay) Those figures are doing nothing, absolutely nothing for this industry whatsoever. If it was a free for all then I would wholeheartedly agree with you. Those figures are doing nothing to get the job market going again - period.

CC

[kick the tires]

Rejoice for what though NSF? (yay, EasyJet are taking on 300 wannabes, yay) Those figures are doing nothing, absolutely nothing for this industry whatsoever. If it was a free for all then I would wholeheartedly agree with you. Those figures are doing nothing to get the job market going again - period.

You'll have to explain this one to me, easyjet promote 160+ internal SFO's, employ a further 300 new cadet pilots and promote 20 training captains - but this does nothing to 'get the job market going again'!

You must have some logic behind your statement - can you share it?

[Agaricus bisporus]

Pretty obvious, I'd have thought.

Hiring cadets does nothing to move the market as it doesn't affect anyone in the market. Neither does internal promotion. No FOs moving from turboprops to jets so no piston drivers moving onto the TPs, and no instructors moving into piston twins. No ex-military getting employed in civvy street either.
No movement anywhere. No cross-fertilization at all. And we know what effect that has on a closed-cycle gene pool, don't we?

Cadets only = market remains bogged down & static.
Ditto internal promotions only and no DECs.
Closed gene pool = ever increasing proportion of mongs.

Hmm!

[shagrat]

Cadets only = market remains bogged down & static.
Ditto internal promotions only and no DECs.
Closed gene pool = ever increasing proportion of mongs.

Hmm!


http://www.thebereanchronicles.com/village-of-the-damned-kids.jpg

[Dan 98]

Yeh but at least CTC makes shed loads of money as does Easyjet...All about ££££££ and greed!!

And nothing will change until a major accident happens as a result of inexperience on the flightdeck. Even then don't hold your breath.....!:ugh::ugh:

Agree with the above comments, this news does nothing to help the job market at all!!!:(

[stansdead]

"Closed gene pool = ever increasing proportion of mongs."

Don't get me wrong. I agree with what you say. But the use of that particular word is, in my opinion, offensive.

It is a word that was and is still a slur used against people unfortunate enough to have menatl disability or Down's syndrome.

We shouldn't use it here to describe Cadet pilots.:=:=:=

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Rejoice for what though NSF? (yay, EasyJet are taking on 300 wannabes, yay) Those figures are doing nothing, absolutely nothing for this industry whatsoever. If it was a free for all then I would wholeheartedly agree with you. Those figures are doing nothing to get the job market going again - period.

CC


It is a really big change to the industry which many have not yet fully appreciated. The time honoured path, Air Work> small TurboProp> Larger T/P/Command/Small Jet> Large jet/Large Airline is pretty much dead because at the larger airline stage the only hiring is through cadet schemes/SSTR.

300 new jobs at one large UK airline used to mean 300 new jobs one rung down the ladder and one rung further down from that at other UK airlines or flying businesses. Lots of promotions, lots of happy people, lots of opportunities.

Not really the case any more :(


WWW

[Dan 98]

Stansdead

Don't get me wrong. I agree with what you say. But the use of that particular word is, in my opinion, offensive.

It is a word that was and is still a slur used against people unfortunate enough to have menatl disability or Down's syndrome.

I don't think Agaricus bisporus meant it to be offensive. My eldest son has Downs and I didn't take his comment to be offensive as he wasn't using it in that context...

I think we all agree though that it isn't great news for the industry unless you have shares in CTC or are a cadet!!

Cheers

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Hmm, think you may have messed up the year there, NSF, or I am reading your post incorrectly. Doubt you applied in 1994 to easyJet as the company started up the following year ;)

[Major Cleve Saville]

NSF

I am not sure if you are being disengenuous but it is clear that if you join a company as a DEC you disadvantage anyone with a date of joining before yours (if you joined in 1994 well done!) who has to wait (for any period of time) for a command. Are you honestly telling me that not one pilot who joined before you ever had to wait for a command slot? If they did you disadvantaged them. Having taken a command, when there were no internal candidates and it was neccessary to allow expansion, did you stand down when the first F/O who joined berfore you became suitable? If not you diadvantaged him/her. Right now if any cadet who joined easy before 2004 is still waiting for a command they have a right to feel disadvantaged by you.

What you seem to want is that all airlines now have a strict seniority list (now that you are in a good position) and only promote internally (British Airways?). if this was strictly applied at ezy at some time you would have lost your command to someone more senior when they became suitable.

I see some similarities here between the BA Cabin Crew who want to tell BA how to run thed company and some of the posters who want to tell easy who they should employ and promote. The fact is that there is generally a free market in jobs and pilots. easyJet management feel the need to maximise profits and play the markets, individuals (incluing NSF) asume the right to play the market and take opportunities as they arise to better their position. The difference is?

The truth is that the free market has created more airlines an pilots jobs than ever BEA/BOAC ever did yet that is the model that you seem to aspire to. A heavily unionised closed shop now you are alright jack.

[Lubeoil]

Iam in the same situation as Superpilot. I've over 2000hrs on 737 and would like the chance to apply for Easy. Is there no route open to me and others like me??

[Coffin Corner]

You'll have to explain this one to me, easyjet promote 160+ internal SFO's, employ a further 300 new cadet pilots and promote 20 training captains - but this does nothing to 'get the job market going again'!

You must have some logic behind your statement - can you share it?

I would have thought it was blindingly obvious. Think of the airline industry as a complete entity, then think of EJ as a smaller entity. What is happening inside EJ is that the bubble (pilots) is expanding, but they are just sat there, on their own, as a single entity doing whatever they want, it has no effect on the rest of the industry when you talk pilot recruitment. The reason is simple, they are taking on cadets "off the street" (not literally), their recruitment drive has no effect on experienced pilots, none whatsoever. This means the industry is still as stagnant as it was before they started.
I would have loved to move across to EJ, and probably make a career there, but to be honest I don't think I want to work there now. They are starting to make Ryanair look attractive.

It is a really big change to the industry which many have not yet fully appreciated. The time honoured path, Air Work> small TurboProp> Larger T/P/Command/Small Jet> Large jet/Large Airline is pretty much dead because at the larger airline stage the only hiring is through cadet schemes/SSTR.

300 new jobs at one large UK airline used to mean 300 new jobs one rung down the ladder and one rung further down from that at other UK airlines or flying businesses. Lots of promotions, lots of happy people, lots of opportunities.

Not really the case any more http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif


WW

WWW

So are your views now changing from telling wannabes on the wannabe forum that it'll be years before they get a look in to a view that these very people are the only ones who are going to get on in the industry? Surely you must now get in there and tell them all to train as fast as they can, right now, because they have more chance of progressing than an experienced pilot, because lets face it, that is exactly what is happening.

[FatFlyer]

A seniority based command system is a fair way to promote in a mature airline which easy now is and DEC when many F/Os are suitable is unfair. This is different from a few years ago when there were none available, I don't see a problem with DECs then. The excuse for not promoting onto the 737 is the cost of type rating bus F/Os, however a lot of us are still within 5 years of flying the 737 so would need only LPC/OPC, this is perhaps unkind.
It is bad that we no longer recruit from the traditional route, this is solely for cost reduction and a lucrative contract for CTC. Much as the cadets are all well trained and keen, they do lack experience and need more coaching from captains in many situations. having such a large percent of low experience pilots must degrade safety margins somewhat. There have been a few minor incidents over the last few months which probably would not have happened with an experienced F/O but cutting costs/next 1/4 profits rule until something serious happens.

[clanger32]

Couple of points. Well, more rhetorical questions, that if anyone wants to respond to, I'd be interested in the answers.

1. WHY does ANYONE consider a seniority system a "fair" way of recruiting. It is absolutely UNfair. Why should someone with bare minimum competence to pass the upgrade course get this honour ahead of someone else who is a better/more experienced pilot? Ezy and Fr are great examples of companies where people got early commands with comparitively little experience. Given the whinge about 'cadets' is always about low experience, this seems yet another example of "one rule for me, another for you". Promotion based on seniority seems to be only really prevalent in the airline industry, every other company on the planet decided long ago that competence based recruitment was a far better solution. In context of aviation, seniority is the one thing that traps people in a given company and therefore doesn't help, it restricts.

2. Whilst I agree with the sentiments expressed by Superpilot, it does make me chuckle - the amount of smug self righteousness expressed by [some of] those who went modular at how much money they saved over "the poor dumb rich mummy/daddys boys who went integrated because they were too thick/lazy/ugly/ responsible for endangered species dying out to do it themselves", which is then promptly followed by wails and gnashing of teeth that they can't get a [jet] job because the only route in is via these schemes that are run by the integrated schools. No, it's not [I]right, but next time, when you're just about to launch into a tirade about the poor dumb rich kids, stop and think about who is really the fool - the fool who spent £100k but got the job in the end , or the fool who spent £50k and got nothing to show for it.....

3. Cadets/inexperienced/accidents etc. Yes, undoubtedly cadets aren't as experienced as someone with 1000s of hours. That's just logical. However, show me the pilot who just woke up one day and found they had 5000 hours experience on the bus or boeing that they didn't have the night before. You ONLY get experience by 'experiencing' it. Would 1500 hours - as often suggested - in a Cessna 152 REALLY make you any better a pilot in the MRJTs [than, for the sake of comparing apples with apples, a cadet who went straight to an MRJT and now has 1500 tt, 1300 on type]? Personally I seriously doubt it. The two aircraft are totally different beasts and the airmanship applicable to a Cessna is probably only very loosely transferable to an MRJT. The reason Cadets are here to stay is because you can't find/imply/prove a link between their inexperience and safety. For every Kos accident, the airlines will show you 1000 flights operated safely with a low hourer in the cockpit. Then they'll show you another 10 accidents of a similar nature that were crewed by experienced crews only. And with each passing day, the number of flights safely operated by low experience crews goes up worldwide. I agree - really I do, that it's not right that these "screw the new guy" deals are the only way in for the moment. I agree that logically, a less experienced crew is likely to be less safe than a more experienced crew, but the only link you can make between inexperience and safety is the entirely logical assertion that if the experience levels are lower, then overall safety is likely to be [I]lower than it could be....NOT that it's UNSAFE....because it manifestly ISN'T unsafe, is it.

[kick the tires]

Think of the airline industry as a complete entity, then think of EJ as a smaller entity.

Why focus on EZY? All other airlines operating this type of equipment are doing exactly the same! Actually operators like jet2 are doing a damn sight more to lower T's & C's! So your argument that I should think of EZY as an entity does not hold much substance. But I can think of EZY as an entity if you wish, but then I would have to think of Thomas Cook, BMI, Thompson, RYR, Monarch, Jet2 as entities as well.

Its a sad fact that this is the way airlines operate now. No consolation to those with a few thousand hours experience who are waiting to move up the ladder.

I had expected the demographic balance at EZY to be addressed by DEP's but they dont seem to think this is necessary.

[Coffin Corner]

Why focus on EZY

Because :ugh: this :ugh: thread :ugh: is :ugh: all :ugh: about :ugh: EasyJet :ugh:


:ugh:

[Gi Dem Dub]

clanger,

I suggest you reread your post later from your future position as a trainer -which I sincerely hope you can achieve- and then you may understand how wrong you are.
You clearly haven't got a clue about the real added value of experience.... how it actually increase safety margins, had it been acquired on a jet or on a turboprop... but only experience can teach you that.

And none of the contributors on here claim to be experienced on a cessna 152 only my friend. Many have jet/heavy turboprop experience. So your comments on the matter are a bit insulting or I would simply say loose their validity based on the lack of maturity they show

You are not conscious of what you don't know.
Aviation safety is a lot more than doggy statistics one individual may dream of...
it's also about what actually goes on in the cockpit that is not quantified or necessarily publicly said but very well felt by the trainer / capt who have to show extra vigilance towards the newbie he's got to coach. This affects general situaional awareness. While it is acceptable within reasonable proportions, it certainly should not become the rule because then safety is affected and accident occurence is just a matter of time.
Why do ya think major airlines don't exclusively take cadets but also broaden their recruitments to experienced drivers ?
I 'm sure you'll grow up.

As for the fool who should have paid 50k instead of 100k .... :hmm:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

So are your views now changing from telling wannabes on the wannabe forum that it'll be years before they get a look in to a view that these very people are the only ones who are going to get on in the industry? Surely you must now get in there and tell them all to train as fast as they can, right now, because they have more chance of progressing than an experienced pilot, because lets face it, that is exactly what is happening.


Coffin - I will continue to share my opinion on the Wannabes forums that the chances and opportunities for airline employment are very poor, have been ruinous and are likely to remain poor next year. I will also continue to advise that the best way into an airline job is to first exhaust any opportunities to join CTC/Any Other SSTR and to expect to pay for everything including Type Rating therefore budget for £100,000.

Even 300 jobs isn't that much when you have just 2 schools outputting that many CPL/IR holders every year...


WWW

[oapilot]

Re your second point, the fact is there are plenty of integrated route pilots who are in exactly the same position as the modular guys now too.

Sadly WWW has it right. The world is changed. When I qualified in 2003, I was sick of being told "come back when you've got some hours and experience". Then the rules changed and pilots started stumping up cash to buy ratings to get themselves ahead of the competition, but most airlines still wanted time on type, so at least with airline time and no rating, you stood a chance. Now its' become "your experience is irrelevant, how much cash have you got/how low a wage will you accept".

So in many ways, how you got your licence is irrelevant too, as long as you satisfy the entry requirements of the pimps who hawk cadets out to airlines.

Cost is king these days and despite the rhetoric the transient managers that most airlines employ don't care about workforce and it's experience as long as legal minimums/standards are met, and they hit their targets and get their bonuses. Chances are, if something serious happens, it won't be on their watch as they will have ticked the box on their CV to get another rung up the greasy pole somewhere else.

I like the majority of pilots paid a lot of cash (whatever route they took to get there) to qualify to operate commercial air transport. After 3000 hours of flying people around, learning along the way and enjoying doing so, it would be nice to progress both in terms of type and income and reduction of training debt. I never expected to become rich by becoming a pilot, but I never expected to be here solely to line the pockets of others either.

Luckily, I have a job at the moment, but I don't see much hope (or point) in progressing until something changes dramatically.

So Easy, like so many others has become a closed door to my generation of pilots.

Bitter? Frankly, yes.

[Major Cleve Saville]

To those pilots advocating promotion and strict seniority etc please consider that in todays volatile economic environment, if every airline only promoted on seniority / date of joining then, should you be unemployed you will have to start again as a junior F/O at a new company.

As a profession do we think it fair that someone with 20+ years in command possibly a TRI/TRE etc etc has to start again at the bottom of the pile.

Is this how other professions operate, surgeons in a new hospital start again as junior doctors? lawyers changing firms become articled clerks?

Strict seniority is great for those in companies 'too big to fail' and for the trade unions as a recruitment tool, but if captains have in effect the 'not so golden hand-cuff's on and cannot ever afford to walk / change jobs the easyJets of this world would know they have us over a barrel.

There seems to be a lot of criticism of CTC on these threads as if it is the evil empire. Why? They provide a service, for which there is a demand, which people and companies use of their own free will.

Maybe the real problem is the lack of third and second level operators in the UK operting piston or turboprops.

Low houred pilots converting onto a jet face a bigger challenge than those gaining experience on turboprops, so they have to start from a higher base line. All the major airlines have always used Hamble/Oxford/Perth now CTC for their cadet programmes, some foreign carriers still do.

Are we proposing we stop people from paying for their training to force the airlines to sponsor? In which case where do the airlines find the funds for cadet scemes, by limiting pay to fund these schemes of course. It will come out of the crewing budget as a crew cost, so we all pay in lower salaries. People have always had the freedom to pay if they choose. Nothing new there.

It is a big bad capitalist world out there NSF & co. thats life, stuff happens, no such thing as a free lunch, you cannot beat the market etc etc!!

[ReallyAnnoyed]

In truth, this thread is entirely irrelevant until you get the recruitment team so sign up here, for we in BALPA have no say in what the company decides to hire. We can try to stop DEC, but we only succeed in that because the company seems to prefer upgrading internally as new commanders are known quantities and the company won't get stuck with some porker who got his command in a third world airline.

So, be bitter if you like, but you're banging on the wrong door.

[Bealzebub]

I will continue to share my opinion on the Wannabes forums that the chances and opportunities for airline employment are very poor, have been ruinous and are likely to remain poor next year. I will also continue to advise that the best way into an airline job is to first exhaust any opportunities to join CTC/Any Other SSTR and to expect to pay for everything including Type Rating therefore budget for £100,000.

Even 300 jobs isn't that much when you have just 2 schools outputting that many CPL/IR holders every year...
Yes, I have to agree with this as well. The reality has been somewhat masked by the recession over the last couple of years, but if you bridge the gap between what was an accelerating process prior to that point, and what is likely happen over the coming years as that process is resumed, then here is the reality of what has happened and what is happening. The future is speculative.

Airlines have no burning need for "two hundred and something hour" pilots. Never had, don't now, and probably never will. Airlines represent the top tier of the cake in this industry, and as such they attract a large number of aspirational career advancers. The traditional terms and conditions (to varying degrees) always reflected that reality.

Discounting the small proportion of genuine cadet / apprentice / low hour schemes that a few companies operated in times long gone, the growth in this business came about as a result of a number of legislative and economic factors.

Changes to licencing requirements as a result of the introduction of European "JAR" regulations meant that the hours requirement for a CPL/IR not acquired as a result of an integrated course was reduced from 700 hours to 250 hours. This brought it more into line with the FAA system whereby a CPL/IR was regarded in practice as more of an "aerial work" (instructing / air taxi/ etc.) licence, than an airline entry certificate.

The rapid expansion in the low cost sector of the industry coupled with the competitive threat to established operators that new leaner practices brought with them, meant that companies sought to eliminate or reduce input costs wherever they existed and where they could do so without unduly jeopardising their businesses, or running foul of the regulator.

One way they could achieve this was to tap into the enormous relative supply of aspirational trainee pilots who would fund their own training and pay for the all the type related costs associated with an induction into their businesses.

Bearing in mind the previous paragraph, many of them sought candidates from affiliated or single school programs where there was a large measure of verifiable quality and consistency that they could monitor. In some cases these candidates also could be "purchased" from the supplier on a sale or return basis, and often the candidates came with a self funded cash guarantee bond, that only had be refunded over a number of years. This enabled those airlines to introduce a whole new level of remuneration that reflected the experience level of these cadet programs, without much of the previous training cost or risk.

As is now being seen here, as any degree of new recruiting arises it seems very llikely that however modified, this is still going to be the best hope for low hour pilots looking to jump the experience gap into the right hand seat of an airliner. That jump is likely to require a recognised (by the airline concerned) course of training, and the necessary funds or guarantees to asssume the risk for the costs of training, tenure, and discretionary employment costs.

It is to be hoped that regulatory oversight and insurance risk related costs, will result in airlines continuing to require a significant proportion of experienced candidates for these right seat positions, but as this expansion is still evolving that remains to be seen.

[First.officer]

......or in other words, unless your a Captain with a Boeing/Airbus rating and a few thousand hours under your belt, we is all pretty much buggered on the recruitment front from here on in........well, unless you can fund a rating on aforementioned a/c

[skyrider2001]

and interesting to see that these sort of thing is first coming from the UK. Once the balance sheet looks alright, it seem to be right. Even BA does not offer it´s own sponsered cadets anymore, unlike LH, AF, Iberia (?), Alitalia (?) or i am wrong?

[oapilot]

if every airline only promoted on seniority / date of joining then, should you be unemployed you will have to start again as a junior F/O at a new company.
As a profession do we think it fair that someone with 20+ years in command possibly a TRI/TRE etc etc has to start again at the bottom of the pile.

Didn't you answer your own question?

It is a big bad capitalist world out there NSF & co. thats life, stuff happens, no such thing as a free lunch, you cannot beat the market etc etc!!

[Craggenmore]

Cost is king these days

and aren't EZY pound wise and penny foolish.

200+ SFO's leaving (absolutley nothing being done to retain them) and being replaced with three hundred 250 hour CTC 'flexi-crew' over this winter/spring (if NSF is to be believed and I for one believe him.) Good business right..?

This leaving Captains to closely monitor new cadets daily. Very hard work I'm told over 5 days times 4 sectors ("I'm so thankful to be flying with a SFO today", is the most frequent thing I hear these days and it seems to be about to get worse, especially for the 0000 to 0600 sim instructors...)

Over 160 internal promotions over the next 15 months, leaving new captains and new cadets flying together daily.

However, new "flexi-crew" to fly 300 to 500 hours per year, perhaps seasonally.

So 5-6 years to accumulate 3000 hours to be considered for command...?

Therefore 3 years from now, perhaps big recruitment for D.E.C's to fill void left by 2010/2011 resigning SFO's (no one left from BMI to fill these positions this time around)

So then and futuristically speaking (edited for African Dude), lots of cheesed off over-looked "flexi-crew", with only 1500-2000 of total factored time after 3-4 years of line flying.

History repeats itself; thus it ever was, thus it ever will be...

Roland Berger - Amen

[The African Dude]

However, new "flexi-crew" to fly 300 to 500 hours per year, perhaps seasonally.
Last heard that easyJet were working out their cadet intake requirement based on 750 hours p.a. - has this changed?

Now lots of cheesed off over-looked "flexi-crew", with only 1500-2000 of total factored time after 3-4 years of line flying.
I don't understand - FlexiCrew has only been around for just under two years... or am I wrong again?

Can somebody confirm the above points? ...cheers.

[Dan 98]

Craggenmore

That is a good post and probably spot on, time will tell. One things for sure the current managers will be long gone having had their performance bonus's!!

:E

[PitchPitch]

@The African Dude - You're right about FlexiCrew but I'm not sure about eJs requirements though... they're taking 158 this Winter/Spring but I'm not sure if they're planning on taking more after that.

One question I want to ask those who are flying the line at eJ right now is this:

What do those Captains who fly regularly with Cadet FOs (CTC) think of the standard/quality of the training and outcome of that training?

I've heard mixed reports about easyJet being pleased with the performance of CTC cadets and those on the other hand saying some have not been offered permanent contracts due to poor performance - Any enlightenment on the subject would be very interesting!

And on a final note, Major Cleeve has nailed it on the head... you might grumble about CTC/OAA but is that because you had a harder life (i.e modular) getting to where you are now?? (no disrespect intended btw)

Happy flying,
SJ

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

A number of points to consider. First to Major Sabille's point. I think that seniority is the only way to govern the airline industry fairly. I absolutely do not want TREs from other airline's turning up here to take command slots that belong to our own FOs. Everyone knows the deal at companies like BA - turn up there and absolutely regardless of your past experience you go to the bottom of the pool. That is the principal reason I would never join them as I would wait forever for a command. Nonetheless, I commend them for looking after their own guys and have no problem whatsoever with the system they operate - those are the rules and everyone knows it.

Regarding the issue of the quality of CTC/Oxford 'cadets', there is much foolishness spoken about the legendary '200-hour' pilot. We were all there once and then only for one flight - after that we had 201 hours and so it went on. A low-houred pilot is by definition a low-experience pilot with all that such a situation brings. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you accept that is a journey through which they must travel. They are almost invariably keen, intelligent, capable and well-motivated. Many low-houred pilots have significant problems with consitstency of landings but there are strick limits (15kts x-wind for example) on what they are allowed to take-on. The question arises as to what makes a good airline pilot. I would suggest 5 things - aptitude, training, knowledge, skill and experience. The first 2 are vital to start off with. After that the last three build up over a period of time. We should not expect that to be instant. So as one who flies all the time with low-houred pilots, I always enjoy it but do not expect too much. They are great folk to be around, but have much to learn - that does not mean they are not competent, but it does mean they are in a learning process that requires more supervision than would be the case with a pilot who had 3000 hours. There is nothing wrong, surprising or alarming about that - it is just a stage through which we all once travelled.

[brother rice]

QUESTION. To all the CTC or Line Trainers in Easy, can you tell me guys/girls that come to easy with 2-3000TT on light twins, singles etc.. or turboprops king airs, shorts 360, ATRs etc) are better than a fresh CPL/IR (modular or intergrated) ??
In my company I would have to say that we as a whole have only had problems with guy/girls that have come to us with high time light aircraft/turbo prop time. After a few years the cadets shine through much more than the guys that joined with higher time.
What you think?? Do you find the same thing?? Would like to hear your thoughts as it is the way the industry is going hate it or not. How would you address the vast difference in standards??

[Pick me Flybe!]

SJAMES - 158 Thats a very exact number, where did you hear from.

Is that including the 40 odd that they are type rating now?

[siftydog]

NSF forgot the sixth thing; The ability to self critique.

Some of the CTC cadets I've flown with are a tad young and arrogant to have developed this one..............................................

I agree they tend to shine in the long term though.

[PaulW]

So what about integrated ctc or Oxford guys that have turbo prop experience? Does experience not mean anything anymore. Are a significant number of pilots who are currently operating turboprops or even regional jets confined to a career of regional flying?
Especially when these guys have proved they can operate with less than twenty minute turnarounds, fly aircraft with similar approach speeds, fly continous descent flight idle descents, into cat c airfields with a wide variety of city pairs throughout Europe, some may even be prepared to pay for ratings but aren't given the opportunity.
The question is why not? Same product plus experience, what's the difference, oh and please don't say because of bad habits picked up because that's insulting to te majority of professional regional pilots.

[Dan 98]

Your first sentence sadly says it all " Experience does not mean anything anymore!"

At least at the level of moving up from your first job or moving from TP to Jet or even in my case from Jet to another Jet!!

The sad truth is as much as it pains me to write this:

As a low houred cadet willing to pay for a TR and work for less than an experienced pilot the airline gets what it wants. An F/O who'll fly the plane under the watchful eye of an experienced Capt who'll hopefully save the day if it all goes wrong.

What would the airline (Easyjet) in this case gain by employing me for instance??? I am 36, married / Children with a large Mortgage so wouldn't /couldn't work for £25k a year and from different bases. I have 1500+hrs on a 737 so would take less training and have some experience etc... but they don't care because paying me £45k a year over the cadet doesn't make them any more money.

I won't get the plane there quicker or make them more money by me flying over a low hour cadet. The conversation might be a bit more interesting for the Capt and my landing might be consistently better (don't count on it!!):E But 99.9999999% of the time it simply doesn't matter and th people in the back don't know, they save money and get the same outcome for half the cost. Like i say it guts me to write it and it is so frustrating that experience actually now disadvantages you from getting a job.....:ugh::ugh:

Had this conversation yesterday with a guy whois in banking in the City. I said it would be like your bank employing people straight out of University into middle / high management roles. It wouldn't happen he said because if we did that we wouldn't make any money, we know if we pay more for the right person we'll make more £££££! Hence why aviation is the way it is and for the forseeable future because CTC will provide a low cost option that most of the time gives an acceptable outcome.

B*gger!!

:uhoh:

[stiglet]

What makes a good pilot?
These days: sophisticated jet, multi-crew, passenger aircraft

No.6 - ATTITUDE
although I'd make that my number one.

[Ray Ban]

Sadly it doesn't matter what experience you've got, if you're prepared to stump up the cash for a rating and be treated like a cadet you can still do it. Met someone last week with a little more experience than me (just over 2000 hours) with only medium turboprop experience (albeit all glass cockpit) who did just that. Mind you he was single, in his mid 30's and didn't have a mortgage! He didn't like having to do the cadet thingy but as he explained to me, what choice did he have?? :{

[ReallyAnnoyed]

The hourly rate our flexi-crew get is quite a bit higher than some people assume in this thread.

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

Only those flexi-crew from BMI, the others (CTC / PTF) are on much less. Flexi-crew means flexible salary scales.

[Superpilot]

I won't get the plane there quicker or make them more money by me flying over a low hour cadet. The conversation might be a bit more interesting for the Capt and my landing might be consistently better (don't count on it!!) But 99.9999999% of the time it simply doesn't matter and th people in the back don't know, they save money and get the same outcome for half the cost. Like i say it guts me to write it and it is so frustrating that experience actually now disadvantages you from getting a job.....



100% correct. The only argument left is that this sort of behaviour by an airline is in contravention to the Equal Opportunities Act. Employers should not be allowed (by law) to discriminate against "experienced" pilots or groups of employees which are deemed less inFLEXible simply because of knowing their salary, family and stability requirements.

If this mass exploitation of workers was taking place in the British construction industry (where apprentices are in the many already), they'd be Panorama documentaries with all the daily rags up in arms.

We would expect our only real voice, B:yuk:LPA, to address this matter and put it infront of labour law chiefs but the truth as quite obviously apparent is that B:yuk:LPA would rather campaign for issues that affect a tiny minority of already well fed and paid pilots. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[jb5000]

Unfortunately EZY are taking pilots through CTC on flexible contracts. There is no discrimination because anybody can apply to CTC for one of these, the terms are just not as attractive as they used to be.

It's rubbish, I agree, but it's nothing to do with discriminating against experience levels whatsoever.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

The figures I have seen were at least 50 pounds per block hour and 60-something at higher experience levels, so 750 x 50 = 37,500 PA which isn't great, but more than hinted in this thread. 180 something for a stand by, as fas as I recall.

[Superpilot]

There is no discrimination because anybody can apply to CTC for one of these, the terms are just not as attractive as they used to be.


I think you missed the point, the vast majority of EZ's recruitment will be for low hours cadets on the FlexiCrew agreement.

[Dr Eckener]

[QUOTE] think that seniority is the only way to govern the airline industry fairly/QUOTE]
You keep banging on about this Norman. The truth is however that seniority for pilots only suits managers. Anything that prevents free movement of labour and makes people sit with one company for all eternity for fear of losing their spot will bring a smile to their faces. You seem to believe it prevents management stooges and cliques etc, but the reality is that it promotes mediocracy. If pilots could move freely from company to company, do you think such poor T&Cs would exist at the bottom end?

No other industry operates to such a ridiculous system. Doctors, lawyers, bankers, politicians - seniority?? They would laugh you out of town. I can only assume you have never had to swallow the bitter pill of redundancy. If you had, you would change your mind very quickly. The truth is that seniority suits YOU, as it offers you protection against having to prove yourself in the work place, but it does not benefit the pilot community as a whole, quite the opposite.

[wilf102]

I had a chat with a management pal at BA recently. It seems the first tranche of recruitment ( don't you just love management speak) is for 80 or so pilots. The idea of taking them all from eJ in one big block was suggested and not not exactly laughed out of court.

Now that would shake things up a bit.

[Dan 98]

I doubt another 80 would change much, if the rumoured 200-250 SFO's already leaving isn't enough to make Easy recruit some experience another 80 won't change that!

Infact you can hear management now, that's another 80 SFO salaries we can half by recruiting some more CTC Cadets to replace them, even more profit for the cash strapped Easy with profits in excess of £150m !!! :ugh::ugh:

Very sad but true i fear.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Dr Eckener - you are absolutely wrong in both your understanding of seniority and the likely benefits of abandoning it. When you talk of free movement of labour, that assumes a constant size labour market that never changes from year to year. The reality of aviation is that it grows and contracts with no rhyme or reason. Any concept of a 'master seniority list' assumes that at age 22 you get a number that guides you throughout the rest of your career. It makes no allowance for aircraft type experience, regional flying, long haul etc or for extensive periods of not working due company bankruptcy, having children, loss of licence and so forth. The real world is infinitely more complicated than that where some people leave other careers to fly, companies come and go and pilots decide to leave the industry. Furthermore it makes no allowance for the initial and ongoing employability of one candidate before another outside the company. You cannot just have some guy turning up at say BA, announcing he is Global Seniority List number 245,721 and demanding his appropriate place in the promised land above some innocent chap who is, alas, stuck forever at 245,722 - despite having worked there for 15 years. Seniority means that 'Captain Special', who is the Chief Pilot's wife's brother's tennis partner does not get preferential treatment over Fred Bloggs from a working class background, who has no important mates in the company but has slaved for years to get where he is.

Your comparisons with doctors, lawyers etc are invalid on a number of counts. First of all, a doctor's or lawyer's skill set is much more difficult to evaluate against a set of critieria that are clearly laid down. A pilot's skills can be clearly determined in simulator exercises to determine if he/she has the necessary skills to be a Captain. In addition a pilot's experience can be analysed hour by hour, so that it can be determined if they have the basic minimum experience to hold a command within his company. Incidentally, ask any doctor or lawyer to tell you hand-on-heart that their promotion system is fair - it absolutely is not and is decided in many case on wining and dining key bosses and clients plus the provision of 'favours' in all their various forms. I utterly reject that approach to promotion and see the seniority system as the only way of stopping that. May we be delivered in aviation from promotion on 'merit', which in most cases means sucking up to your boss and catching his eye over a curry and a drink down-route. I know that seniority is not perfect, and checks and balances need to be in place. I also accept that seniority only works in certain industries when all promotion candidates are basically doing the same job. It is, however, infinitely better than a system of global transfers where lucky people whose sole 'skill' was to start flying Cessna 150's the week before someone else and they then have a trump card to play at will for the rest of their lives. Suddenly, that guy gets the 'nod' over a more deserving candidate who has waited years within one company for an opportunity to advance. Leave airline managers to decide 'merit' and before you know it Chief Pilot's sons are promoted ahead of everyone else and the Captains are essentially 'grace and favour' appointees, employed at the whim of some senior bod whose next door neighbour gave him a good night out at the dog races or whatever. I absolutely cannot stand all that and would back a loyalty-based seniority system every time. If you want to advance in your company, do your time, prove your worth and take your chance when it comes - which it surely will in a seniority-based system.

[flieng]

I have suggested and are in the process of putting together information for either "panorama" or "dispatches" regarding the state of this "industry" and the possible safety implications particularly with regard to any P2F. Lots of work to do do to anticipate the airlines response and the toothless CAA/JAA. Imagine going into hospital for a serious op and the consultant says"I,m not operating on you as a doctor straight out of med school has bunged us 35k to get some hands on time,that ok with you?"

[Dan 98]

Flieng

If you want support with anything then I'm sure you would get it from people on here, I would be happy to help in anyway.
I agree the only way anything is ever going to change is to get whats going on in the media and expose how low this industry has gone in order to save money by exploiting people entering the industry and disadvantaging those already in it!!

:ok:

[jb5000]

Their arguments would be:

- Cadets have been in use at many airlines including BA, bmi, flybe, Thomas Cook, First Choice, Thomson, Monarch, Jet 2 amongst others.

- They have passed all of the CAA written exams and flight tests along the way.

- Simulator courses are all passed to the company and the regulatory authorities standard.

- Vigorous line training with experienced trainers

- Final line check passed to standard

They will turn our arguments about safety around and make us look like we are just interested in the salary drop of the new scheme.

How many members of the public are going to be interested in the 20-something FO who now earns 30-40k instead of 50k+...?!?

The argument about the medic is incorrect, it's more a case of "Our new med school student is being paid 30% less than he used to, but he has still gone through the same checking and exams as before, and he will be fully supervised by a highly experienced consultant. Are you happy?" Yes, of course.

I believe the argument about the drop in safety will be very hard to make stick, and the public wont care about so-called rich pilots still earning double the national average wage.

I think these schemes are absolute ****e and a true sign of the future working conditions for us all, but I doubt anyone outside aviation could care less.

[Starbear]

To answer your point here and your question on the Jet2 thread: I do think the public would be interested but unfortunately I don't have much faith in the ability of these programme makers to make a convincing argument and if they get the message wrong then they risk long term damage to the argument. There is so much money at stake here that the airlines and as you say toothless CAA, will go to enormous lengths to prove how safe evrything is.

I remain to be corrected but I always get the impression they (programme makers) are only interested in the big dramatic soundbites whereas to address the problem properly would require one of of the old style investigative journalists to conduct some serious in depth research in order to produce a convincing argument. The Colgan crash at Buffalo N.Y. would certainly be a good starting point: Colgan Air Flight 3407 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407)

Part of the problem is that we as pilots, can't even seem to agree what the problem is or even if there is a problem, just witness the attempts at defending the shocking Jet2 package. Just think about it; the F/O salary is quoted somewhere as £41,000 (plus max £6.00 per sector) but they only get paid 70% of that so £28,700 but are also required to fork out somewher between £25k and £16k up front (depending on what you believe) How is anyone expected to live on £3,500 (not even taking tax into account) BUT some will attempt it and right there you have the recipe for "Colgan" syndrome to be played out, right here in the UK, whereby some pilots simply cannot afford proper accomodation, whilst they commute for a job which they have accepted in desperation.

Another area for such research of course is the MPL (Multi-crew Pilot Licence), yet another vehicle to produce even less experienced pilots at even less cost and heavily supported by Boeing Flight Training for one (Pretty sure Airbus won't be far behind)

I am aware however, that there is a book being written (not sure of publication date) called "Race to the bottom" but the cynical side of me says its all too late and the bean counters, aided by far too many self centred and selfish pilots have won and there is no way back from the model we now have.

[Major Cleve Saville]

Norman Stanley Fletcher

I have been in this industry a lot longer than you and I can remember a time in the seventies when there were only really 2 scheduled Jet Operators of note BEA/BOAC & BCal. The only way into BA/BOAC was through Hamble. You then entered a seniority based system with a long time to command. Promotion was not on merit just time served, no rewrd for good performance. The airlines themselves were really government employment agencies offering poor service at high cost. Competition was kept out of the market. Even ex-service pilots (and especially navigators) were effectively excluded for a while under this Soviet style system.

What has offered you opportunity and has allowed you, NSF, to advance so far is the free-market, the liberalisation of air carriers, the survival of the most astute.

Now you NSF having got yourself in a good position want a return to the seventies. I believe you may be a good old fashioned Glaswegian socialist. Do you intend that the airline industry go the way of Scottish shipbuilding, union closed shops lots of power to the unions, pesumably lots of industrial action until you get to tell the management how to run the company.

Your allegations of nepotism etc are very naive. have you never met a pilot who claims to have had his career halted by the trainer/checker he does not get on with? You think that aviation is somehow special? Insulated from the real world? How do you eliminate unfairness at that level, or any level. Your seniority system traps individuals from moving jobs and bettering themselves just as you did. And didn't you leave an airline with a seniority system to advance your career (as the system was holding you back) couldn't wait your 'fair' turn eh NSF? But you expect everyone else to?

The best way to ensure fair terms and conditions is a thriving, expanding industry with free market conditions both in the market place and the employment market. That has been my experience over the last thirty years in this industry.

Fairness! When was life fair? Under any system someone wil get screwed and others will be unfairly rewarded. At least the free market gives us a chance to compete on merit and mobilty to move on if it doesn't.

You are no longer in the employ of HMG NSF. easyJet is owned by the shareholders, the want return on capital and they expect the board to deliver. If they don't the money walks. If you don't like the way the company is run you can do the same.

Like most good socialists you want to benefit from the free market when times are good but protection from it when times are not so good.

Just how much of your lecturing here has to do with benefitting your fellow man an how much is protecting the position of NSF?

If you are that moral, you could find a seniority based company that is actually expanding or recruiting I am sure you are free to apply for a First Officers position just like everyone else.

But the real problem I have with your holier than thou, condescending, lectures on pprune is that you played the free market system to better yourself and now you want to limit others opportunity to do the same.

Oh sorry I forgot conditions were different then (exapnding free market) and you disadvantaged absoloutely no-one, ever, not one person, not even for a minute. So thats ok then.

[fastidious bob]

Well said Major, could not have put it better myself!

[Dr Eckener]

[QUOTE]When you talk of free movement of labour, that assumes a constant size labour market that never changes from year to year/QUOTE]

No it doesn't.

[QUOTE] would suggest 5 things - aptitude, training, knowledge, skill and experience/QUOTE]

The very things that a merit based system can promote.

[QUOTE] It makes no allowance for aircraft type experience, regional flying, long haul etc or for extensive periods of not working due company bankruptcy, having children, loss of licence and so forth/QUOTE]

Your seniority system certainly does not make allowances for this. Any redundancy means 'go back to Old Kent Road'!

[QUOTE]Any concept of a 'master seniority list' assumes that at age 22 you get a number that guides you throughout the rest of your career/QUOTE]

What are you talking about? I never suggested replacing one rubbish system with another rubbish system. I am talking about MERIT. This has nothing to do with golf clubs or starry eyes over curries by the way. I completely agree with the Major. Your views are naive, perhaps even paranoid.

[QUOTE]so that it can be determined if they have the basic minimum experience to hold a command/QUOTE]

Glad to hear that EJ are not interested in the best people for the job, merely those who can just about step up to the mark. No wonder you are always late.

How does your seniority system help all those within (or more appropriately without) your company, on flexi contracts etc. I assume they have no seniority, and are therefore nothing more than second class citizens in your eyes.

The Major is right about your self serving approach, and I fear it is not worth having the argument. I can only hope that your seniority system keeps you stuck where you are, eating crap sandwiches until retirement comes.:ugh:

[Uncle Wiggily]

That's right Major! Dammit, I remember having to walk through 4 feet of snow in order to get my jet! Today's pilots are a bunch of fairies.

I remember like it was yesterday, Feb. 5 1974...Amanda one of my favorite stewardesses came to the cockpit and asked," how I liked my tea?" I replied, "damn, you stupid woman....I like it how I liked it yesterday and the day before that!" I then told her that she had no place in an aircraft, especially considering that she was stupid and pushing 30 years of age! I then gave her a tissue to wipe away a few pathetic tears and then told her to get back to work.

Major.....you are right, people like NSF show little respect for their elders and need to be put in their place.

[FatFlyer]

Some rather unkind and aggressive posts. As the person you berate as being self serving is already a TRE etc he is unlikely to benefit from a seniority list. However, colleagues who have served for a number of years and reached the required standard might.
It would be quite difficult to choose ,on merit, between an external DEC and internal SFO, how would HR compare training records ( if available),performance etc from different companies?
If I, as a captain, were made redundant, is it fair that I should leapfrog someone who has worked 5 or 10 years for their company and been assessed as suitable for command? I would not feel hard done by starting in the right seat.
I think it is wrong to solely employ low experience F/Os and would prefer the mixed recruitment of a few years ago, the difficult financial situation some of the young lads are in with bankruptcy threatened is probably moving towards a less safe operation.
While cost is king, it is cheaper to promote an expensive SFO and replace them with a cadet than keep him as a SFO and recruit DEC

[SKY's4ME]

Here here studi.
>NSF point is more valid now then ever as the Airline has started maturing. To present a long term career to SFO's and FO's there must be allowance for loyalty.

[Groundloop]

The Colgan crash at Buffalo N.Y. would certainly be a good starting point: Colgan Air Flight 3407 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No, it wouldn't.

The Colgan FO had over 2000 hours with over 770 on type, hardly a 200 hour cadet.

[Pick me Flybe!]

"I have suggested and are in the process of putting together information for either "panorama" or "dispatches" regarding the state of this "industry"

:zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz:

Yet another thread that started out addressing some interesting recruitment issues and questions, only to be hijacked by the anti cadet brigade.

As Norman Stanley Fletcher has said in the past, The CTC cadet entry that people are entering Easy on is hardly comparable to the P2F schemes that Eaglejet and the ATP scheme with line training at BMI are.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

NSF point is more valid now then ever as the Airline has started maturing

Exactly, and this is the point a few on this thread are clearly missing. It isn't three years to command at easy anymore. There is a long, long list of pilots in the airline who have been here years and are suitably qualified, awaiting assessment. As the airline reduces its expansion the time spent in the RHS will increase. We don't need DECs' anymore. I agree it is a poor state of affairs that only those from CTC are allowed to join, and the company are making a mistake with their recruitment policy of F/Os.

As for comments such as

Glad to hear that EJ are not interested in the best people for the job, merely those who can just about step up to the mark. No wonder you are always late.



Can't you come up with something more original? Our safety record over the past 15 years speaks for itself. We clearly do have the best people for the job.

[goosemaverick]

Hi all,

Newbie here, so please tread carefully... I'd heard from a friend that Oxford or doing a similar scheme, or is CTC the only route in these days?

[101917]

Seniority represents both direct and indirect discrimination and once tested in the Courts should become history

From October 2011 the 2006 Age Discrimination Act will be fully implemented and the 5 year period for companies and unions to become fully compliant will be over.

Pure seniority based selection procedures in all industries, not just aviation, will become a thing of the past, and not before time, for all the good reasons mentioned in a few of the previous posts.

[flieng]

The doctor analogy is relevant. I think most people would ask questions why a brand new doctor is performing an operation because he,s paid 35 grand to the hospital to get experience(especially if it was on them!). Questions which most people would ask of airline pilots paying airlines 35grand to "get experience" flying the paying public around! Whether programme makers or the press would be interested remains to be seen. As regards you,re former points, yes I,m sure airlines/regulator(use the term loosely) would make exact same but the Thomas cook accident report is worth a read. Were those high standards maintained with a paying "cadet"? The strong suggestion is not. As I mentioned previously money can alter "standards" if the senior pilots allow it (within any organisation). I suspect starbear is correct, maybe we are as a proffesion in the uk at a point of no return to decency,integrity and respect. What a shame particularly for new pilots.

[Starbear]

Bit of crossed wires here.

My reference to the Colgan one was due to issues around the inability of poorly paid crews to afford proper rest facilities whilst commuting and so is very relevant. I was not suggesting anything to do with experience in that case, though I grant you that answer was in response to flieng's point about P2F and general reductions in terms and conditions.

[pilotsince99]

I agree here with 'NSF' and 'BITMORERIGHTRUDDER' . A DEC that has never flown the operation in the kind that easyjet is doing might have a lot of struggle going online with easyjet, especially if he has been flying long haul for the last 20 year.
It would take a lot more training than training some of the SFO's who are used to the whole operation, aircraft etc.
Second, those that say, what if you would be made redundant and can't find a job as a captain you would think diffirently.
My answer would be what if you are the SFO and you are being bypassed by another DEC because he is on the so called eternal senority list after you have done 10 years in the company. It is all perspective and which side you are on. It is very unfortunate that people are being made redundant, but you can't expect airlines to give you all the loyalty, rewards etc that someone has build up to someone who has not flown a day in the company.

I agree that experience is nowadays not being recognised within airlines when it comes down to recruitment and I sincerly hope that that will change. But there has to be limit in how far you will go and my limit would be disadvantaging the staff in your own airline.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Major Saville - Delighted and impressed as I am at your longevity in the airline industry, you have to win the argument rather than assume your position give you greater insight than the rest of us. I am highly amused to be called a socialist - many an insult has been levelled at me in my life but never that one! Just out of interest, were I to be a Mancunian or Liverpudlian socialist, would my views be more acceptable than those of a Glaswegian socialist? The slight difficulty with some of the posts on here is that they are essentially personal insults, and largely devoid of any cogent or reasoned discussion points. By all means see me as self-serving - that is for others who know me to judge the truth of, and I would not seek to rob you of your assured position. For what it is worth, I personally have nothing whatsoever to gain from seniority at easyJet. My sole interest is that the pilots already working here are spared the inevitable abuses of position that occur when no protections are in place to prevent them.

Like so much that passes for reasonableness in life, through the croodile tears and feigned shock, all I really hear are the voices of vested interests couched in terms of genuine concern. Would not life be so much easier if all those nasty young First Officers at easyJet were swept aside to make way for real pilots with proper experience? They can do their time like the rest of us - get them to the back of the queue where they belong. As the good Major has observed, the changes in the airline industry of recent years has made way for companies like ours to flourish, and like many others at easyJet I am a net beneficiary. Why on earth should the pilots at easyJet roll over to let in the Billy Bunters of the airline industry who have suddenly seen a dripping roast pass by in front of them? Join the queue chaps.

Back to the main topic, there are interesting times ahead at easyJet. The signs are that we yet empty our command pool in the next year or so. The very short-sighted position of only employing 200-hour pilots instead of those with signficant experience to smooth the experience demographics of the company, may yet come to bite us in a big way. I have always held that we need to recruit in a balanced manner, but as many will recognise, we have not done so. That is not to denigrate our excellent CTC pilots. The problem is they have low hours and will not be available for promotion in the next 2 years - either through lack of hours or because most will have left to join BA! That could yet open the door to a radical change of employment practices within easyJet - few things concentrate the mind more than aircraft sat on the ground with no one to command them. I am much criticised for being too positive about easyJet, and I unashamedly enjoy working here. I want to see a company where effort of the pilots inside the company is rewarded, rather than those outside coming in to take the best deals. I am not anti-DECs per se - but as long as there are suitably qualified FOs here to promote, they have to get first bite of the cherry. Self-serving? Maybe. Concerned for our own guys first? I hope so.

[stakeknife]

Guys, there are no and will not be any DEC's while there are SFO's in the command pool, my guess is that by 2013 DEC's will be back as there are no SFO's ready. As long as it does not disadvantage someone ready for the command I see no issue, EZY have taken them in the past alongside internal promotions and it never slowed any commands down, it was a matter of pure volume. Just over 4 years to command is still very quick, over 100 commands internally next year is huge no other UK carrier would even be close in terms of time to command.

As for Seniority, EZY pretty much has it in the most legal form available that was agreed during consultation last year.


Right, back in the box.........

[Ashling]

Yes very interesting times ahead.

NSF is right, the company may well be making a rod for its own back in only recruiting 200 hour cadets. Time will tell and the companies ability to sort out its internal difficulties will be key in retaining the more experienced F/Os who we will need to step up to command in the next couple of years. Bear in mind the aircraft orders tail off after 2012 and Stelios is still keen to limit expansion and pay a dividend despite sorting out the brand license issue.

Many of the F/O's have sacrificed a great deal and taken a huge risk to be with us and some of them work under pretty crappy t&c's. I for one will support them all the way in progressing to command and defend their right to have first pickings. If we passed people over in favour of external candidates it would be an outrage. That said we could run out of internal candidates and then we would need to look outside. There is also a business review occurring and recruitment may be reviewed as part of this which could lead to a policy change.

Personaly I can see clear value in taking cadets, integrating them into our operation and developing them all the way to command and beyond. They become a known product and risk is more easily managed. However for it to work easyJet need to retain them and on their current terms that could be tricky.

[stansdead]

I have asked before and I will ask again: why the email from CTC recently asking suitably qualified Captains to update their details at CTC for "upcoming UK and European DEC A320 positions"?

Far from being an old schooler, who can't pass up a free dinner - or whatever NSF alluded to, I'm young, qualified, experienced and current.

I've worked hard to achieve, hold and make a success of my Command. Like others, I hope easyJet recruit DEC's again soon.

Self serving. You bet. That's exactly why I left my excellent A340 RHS job to join a small, expanding A320 company as a DEC. Now, I'd like to join easyJet. That was always my hope.

[Craggenmore]

the company may well be making a rod for its own back in only recruiting 200 hour cadets

Ultimately yes, but also not really. Those making these recruitment decisions won't be here in 3-4 years time to be affected by what it might mean (ring any bells?) It will be 'bye-bye' time like the last lot with 5 million in the back pocket. That's the problem with easyJet and its decision making management - its short termism for gross gain.

Personaly I can see clear value in taking cadets, integrating them into our operation and developing them all the way to command and beyond

I would like to agree with this statement but I can only say 'Good-Luck'. Unless you have had a previous flying career (s), topping up a pension or have an unyeilding masochistic disorder, I really can't see any cadet staying at easyJet for an entire career.

It's far too brutal.

[Ashling]

stansdead I don't wish you or others in your position ill but you will appreciate that it is right we look after our own first. They have worked hard too and taken real risks to be were they are. They will have come through our training system and will be a known quantity which will always make them less risk than someone from outside on both safety and operational grounds. I'm not saying that no one from outside would be suitable, far from it, but the associated risks are greater because you are taking an unknow product (peoples files don't follow them around unlike the airforce) that is unfamiliar with the operation.

Craggemore I agree which is why I qualified my statement by mentioning that current T&Cs will make it difficult to retain our people. Maybe that will change under our new CEO but I'm not holding my breath.

[Major Cleve Saville]

NSF - easyJet a 'dripping roast'? I have had 2 brief flirtations with easyJet. The first back in the mid 90's when it was a 2 aircraft operation which was very enjoyable. The second in the 21st century which, on the level of plain old fashioned employer - employee relationship level was not.

Call me old school Billy Bunterish but just being a number on the end of a telephone ordered about by someone you have never met seems rather impersonal. It is hard to get truly engaged and feel part of a company like easyJet or Ryanair etc.

These are my impressions:

EasyJet is a sales and marketing company which just happens to be selling airline tickets the employees (pilots crew) are a means of production nothing more or less.

The smart cadets realise that a career with any low cost carrier is not much of a career. Basically 40 years flying the same sorts of flights on the same or similar type. The smart cadets will do their sums and move on. And quite frankly they deserve better after the investment they have made.

The management of easyJet know that their pilots have a 'life expectancy' of about 7 years, they expect a high turnover. This is a result of the business model. It will never change. They could choose to be like SouthWest they don't, why? Because the people who run easyJet (and Ryanair) have no interest in or understanding of aviation. Whereas pilots are the opposite, in it for the flying not interested in sales or marketing.

Seniority lists will not change this, a free market will at least ensure market rate for the job.

I work with a few ex-easyJet pilots and quite frankly if this is a 'dripping roast' we would rather be a vegetarians.

Do I want to work for any low cost carrier - no. There is more to life than being a number ordered about by a spotty youth on a telephone.

Life is short, quality of life is important and I, and alot of others did not get into aviation for this type of lifestyle.

I work for a company where I at least get to say good morning to all the staff eye to eye. Where we treat each other with mutual respect and I feel I am valued and a part of the organisation.

Oh and NSF I do know you.

[Deep and fast]

I don't know about Easy being a dripping roast.

More accurate would be the industry is a spit roast! Cos we are getting :mad: from all directions.

D and F :ooh:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There is a certain attraction to gaining you Command in a large jet airline in your 20's and you need to have been in Ezy/Ryr to have achieved that or to be able to achieve it. Don't discount that factor, it can set you up for life.

I don't think the pool of SFO's will run dry. There was a massive spike of recruitment circa 2006 which must now be getting close to being ready. Then there is the previous bad experiences with DEC's (LGW banzai approach etc).


WWW

[stansdead]

...and then there are very sensible, talented and safe DEC's too.

As NSF said himself, he was a DEC.

It seems that everyone who didn't join easyJet - for whatever reason- in the "good old days" must be really sh1t. At least so it seems.

6000+ hours. 5800 jet, flown big and small Airbus, Boeing. Been in every continent of the world, never had any incident. Never failed any checks. Integrated student. CTC ATP academy cadet (when that was a really tough thing to be selected for - I.e. When it was free of charge). Current Airbus Captain with management role.....I could go on....

What the heck is a Banzai approach? I honestly don't know....

....please enlighten me!!! And why are CTC talking about DEC jobs? Still, no-one dare address that Elephant in the room!!

[5150]

[QUOTE]I could go on….[QUOTE]

Don't bother . . . . :zzz:

[Doug the Head]

Current Airbus Captain with management role.....I could go on....Man, you sound like a perfect replacement for NSF when he retires! One DEC replacing the next! :yuk:

Major Cleve Saville, hear hear! Very good points indeed! :ok:

[NT319]

There is a certain attraction to gaining you Command in a large jet airline in your 20's and you need to have been in Ezy/Ryr to have achieved that or to be able to achieve it. Don't discount that factor, it can set you up for life.

Indeed. There are some pilots who, if offered a permantent contract, would stay.

Unfortunately, though, there are an equal number of people, if not more, who see easyJet as a stepping stone.

Personally, I joined CTC before things became as sour as they now are. I will be trying to get a permanent contract with easyJet soon, having already flown with them for some time through CTC. If I were to gain this contract, the prospect of a relatively quick command at or before the age of 30, would certainly make me want to stay.

It is a shame, however, that the company expect to see us come and go and are happy to do so.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Stansdead, you went to an airline that pays a captain's salary which is less than the SFO salary in our European bases to get a command and then you think you can come queue jumping here? You went for the command which was attractive to you. Use it where you are. It is folly to expect people in easy to step aside for your ambitions. Hopefully, DEC is a thing that will never be needed in easy again.

[SKY's4ME]

Well said!
It is true that we are now at the size were we can look after ourself's regarding Captains.
All we have to do now is create realistic and attractive new entry FO contracts..

[Craggenmore]

the prospect of a relatively quick command at or before the age of 30, would certainly make me want to stay.

If you say this then I don't think that you've been at Easy for long (not having a permanent contract as you state, is a clue.)

As a CTC cadet in your early 20's, year 1 at Easy is great fun.
Year 2 is also good.
Year 3 you're starting to get a little hacked off with things.
Year 4 you start to consider leaving but are unsure as command might be coming up.
Year 5 you now want to leave but have a command course planned.
Year 6 you turn down that chance to join other Airlines to pass your command course.

So now a Year 1 Captain and the extra money is great.
Year 2 Captain and the gained experience settles you nicely into the job.
Year 3 Captain and...............................then what?

30 years old, Captain, good income but another 35 years until retirement with Easyjet? Thats a really tough call.

Personally, I don't think anyone could stay for a whole career here the way things are at the moment.

I only hope that 'uSay' is taken seriously by the new management for these hopes and aspirations to become reality.

[NT319]

Craggenmore..

Indeed. But only time will tell. If I get a permanent contract and if I manage to get a reasonably quick command, my mind may have changed by then. Perhaps I will want to try and go through the training route, perhaps I may be sick to death of the place and exploring every oppportunity to get out. I need to make sure I get a contract before any of this is a consideration, anyway.

I hope uSay is taken seriously too. Certainly every pilot I have spoken to, contract, FO or Captain, has had some strong input about the way things are. I think it's such a shame that they haven't done more to keep their pilots. Perhaps things might change if there is an exodus... But then again, maybe not.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Of the 90 commands at easyJet this year the AVERAGE time in the company was 4 years and 4 months for the 90.

Argue with the numbers.

Joining in your early to mid 20's and getting the big payrise (and twice as many job opportunities) before your 30's is, has and will be possible.


WWW

[stansdead]

You do not have a clue what you are talking about. How do you know what I get paid?

If you are so sure that I earn less than an easy SFO, let's see the numbers. I don't think you are correct. You don't even know what my role is in my company.

So, before you go shouting your mouth off, DEC's will happen again in easyJet and I look forward to taking one.

Stop being so arrogant, answer my question. Why are DEC's being "tapped up" for jobs at easy by CTC?

It's gonna happen and to make people like you wait, I'll jump at the chance.

There you go, I tried to be civil, but you deserve to be told.... easyJet have since time immemorial,taken DEC's. Why stop now? Just because you think you are good enough? Get real. It's business, stupid.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

a) You don't know WHO CTC might be acting on behalf. You are assuming it is ezy...

b) Placing a cheap ad to test the market is a long way from actually running interviews and sim check so don't run before your theory can even walk.

c) Making 'bold' claims about your future intentions to 'take' an easyJet DEC on an Internet discussion board, populated by people involved, whilst relying on anonymity is an 'interesting' approach.


I'll wager there will be no Permanent DEC's in Easyjet and I'll further wager stansdead that you won't get one. Sunshine. ;)


WWW

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

stansdead like Ashling I am not unsympathetic to your position. It may well be that you a competent, capable bloke - that is not the issue. EasyJet has so much going for it, despite some incredibly frustrating and largely unnecessary failings that could so easily be ironed out. Our world has improved considerably with the arrival of a new CEO and her removal of our dire Ops Director. Therefore, you are right to want to come here, because it has much to commend it compared to other airlines around. Nonetheless, we simply cannot be in the business of helping DECs fulfil their ambitions as long as we have any promotable FOs available from our own ranks. We should not be embarrassed in any way to first and foremost look after our own guys before we consider those outside. I am not a betting man, but it is one of the safest bets I know that you will not be getting a DEC at easyJet. Reading your petulant demands for that Command at easyJet, which for reasons that escape me you believe is owed you, is a truly uninspiring sight. There are literally hundreds of top FOs in the queue before you, and there are some powerful people out there who will fight tooth and nail to ensure they get there before carpetbaggers like yourself.

Major Cleve Saville - No one is asking you to work for low cost carriers - I actually quite like it, but that is just a personal choice. By the way, your little references to me in your posts make you sound more and more like a stalker by the moment - it really is not considered good form to do that sort of thing on here old chap, but if that is what floats your boat then do carry on. I am delighted you want to work for your current employer and that is just great. And if people want to leave easyJet after a few years then that is great too. In the meantime those that stay just need to ensure they are not royally stuffed by Uncle Tom Cobbly and all, who want to jump their place in life's queue.

Regarding stansdead's very interesting question about CTC's requirement to fill upcoming 'UK and European DEC A320 positions', I am as intrigued as he is. I have heard that they have various non-easyJet contracts on the go, but I also know they are in ongoing discussions with the Company. This is the downside of easyJet - happy, smiling faces across the table chatting away nicely to BALPA reps about how we must all work together to make easyJet wonderful. In the meantime, the very same people are doing dirty deals over beer and sandwiches with CTC to stuff us completely. Time will tell, but if DECs are introduced in the current climate, then major industrial strife will occur. I believe Carolyn McCall is too clever to risk the excellent raport she is building with the pilots over a foolish and totally unnecessary dispute.

[OPEN DES]

FACT: Well I've been in Wizzair so I know what stansdead takehome is, even if he manages to 'avoid' paying tax the take-home is less than an SFO on the continent. Poland is a lot cheaper though!

[wilf102]

Managers walk the tightrope in running a business trying to balance doing what is right, and what is necessary. Although the last two departed managers were doing what was necessary for their bonuses the current incumbents will, and I believe are, viewing the major part of our current "crew disconnect" and being largely solvable by crewing at the correct levels. If the training department can't train enough fast enough then there will likely be some DEC positions to plug the gap. Better that than contract captains which would set an unacceptable precedent.
My money is on a handfull of DECs this summer.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I believe Balpa members would prefer a handful of fixed term contract Training Captains over DEC's. As you say - it will be training capacity and not SFO numbers that will likely be the issue.

I only know of three Captains ever asked to leave/fired and they were all DEC's. It's like Forest Gumps chocolates - you never (really) know what you're going to get despite the best efforts of the recruitment team. Whereas SFO's with 4+ years in the company are a fairly well tasted chocolate and unlikey to turn into an Orange Creme in the LHS...

DEC's won't happen.


WWW

[Mi EASA Su EASA]

Does anybody know if BALPA are doing anything about the poor flexi-contracts?

[Major Cleve Saville]

Hey Folks someone:

(can't say who, but he is an EZY DEC who doesn't think DECs should not be allowed in EZY (except for him, 'cos he is special) but thinks EZY is, golly gosh, the bestest airline ever with the highest standards ever. Who wants F/Os to be promoted in turn, (except if he wants a command quick) but doesn't like the CTC ones 'cos he thinks CTC are evil, he wants nice F/O's magic'ed out of thin air that didn't cost anybody anything).

keeps referring to ME by name on this thread apparently that's bad form here on pprune! How do I protect my honour from his evil intent?

Yours in fear of an apparently (allegedly) complete stalker!!!

Major Cleve Saville

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Stansdead, you have written in a wizzair thread what you make. You can do your own research about SFOs on the continent to find out that you are junior on the pay front. You got your command. Enjoy it. Be bitter if you like, but neither easyJet nor any other company owes you any DEC position, although you seem to think so.

I can't tell you why CTC is advertising for A320 captains as I do not work for CTC. I am sure they will tell you if you contact them.

[Major Cleve Saville]

Hey Folks someone:

(can't say who, but he is an EZY DEC who doesn't think DECs should not be allowed in EZY (except for him, 'cos he is special) but thinks EZY is, golly gosh, the bestest airline ever with the highest standards ever. Who wants F/Os to be promoted in turn, (except if he wants a command quick) but doesn't like the CTC ones 'cos he thinks CTC are evil, he wants nice F/O's magic'ed out of thin air that didn't cost anybody anything, and DEC's are all no good (except for him 'cos he is just sooo special).

keeps referring to ME by name on this thread apparently that's stalking and 'bad form here on pprune'! (it must be he says so!!). How do I protect my honour from his evil intent?

Yours in fear of an apparently (allegedly) complete stalker!!!

Major Cleve Saville

[stansdead]

WWW,

You are a pompous fool. You dispense advice like you are the "sun king". You know absolutely nothing about whether I would or wouldn't get a DEC job at EZY. You are nobody. Sunshine...:ok:

Open Des,

I'm not a regular Captain - I'm lucky therefore, I pay full UK tax and I earn well above an SFO salary in EZY. In any base. And who says I'm in Poland?

Part of the problem with some of you is that you all think that you are, somehow, better than everyone else. Or better qualified. Well, I'd hazard a guess that you are not. For example, how many eJ pilots as a % number have any experience of commercial flying outside of even Europe? Heaven forbid even in the USA, Australia, Africa (proper Africa, not Morocco or Algeria)? About 20% maybe.

Don't worry though, with idiots like WWW to fly the flag from Bristol for you, you will of course be able to pretend you have more experience and ability than you really do.

As for SFO salaries. Have you clever chaps ever thought that eJ may force those in Spain to go to LGW at a month's notice - or whatever is required. Even with a relocation package, it will be cheaper to rebase those costly Euro contracts permanently. Welcome to DEC's elsewhere in your network.... when the euro contract was designed, the exchange rate was about 1.5 euro to a pound. Now it has been rebased - longterm - to between 1.1 and 1.2 it seems. Not sustainable. Enjoy your old euro contracts while they last boys and girls. The world has changed and you will have too as well......:D:D:D

[Craggenmore]

Whereas SFO's with 4+ years in the company are a fairly well tasted chocolate

Would that be 'Terry's Chocolate Orange'.........:ok:

[stansdead]

People do get promoted. I have been. i earn a lot more now. Honestly.

Where did I ever say eJ owe me a Command? A lot of you guys obviously think that all your FO's are owed one though. It doesn't work that way though. Sorry...... it is business.

[OPEN DES]

As for SFO salaries. Have you clever chaps ever thought that eJ may force those in Spain to go to LGW at a month's notice - or whatever is required. Even with a relocation package, it will be cheaper to rebase those costly Euro contracts permanently. Welcome to DEC's elsewhere in your network.... when the euro contract was designed, the exchange rate was about 1.5 euro to a pound. Now it has been rebased - longterm - to between 1.1 and 1.2 it seems. Not sustainable. Enjoy your old euro contracts while they last boys and girls. The world has changed and you will have too as well......

You obviously have no clue about the salaries and conditions on the continent, not that it should be of any concern to you of course. And in the highly unlikely case that I would be relocated I would be a rich man with the relocation package. :D I will then join Wizzair as DEC and trainer, I will be able to live on peanuts from then on.

DEC's are not going to happen btw!
(and if they do, since you're a rich man, you can pay me to be your reference)

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Yeah, I am sure you know a lot more about easyJet than us in the company, Stansdead. I hope you can see how hollow it sounds when you try to toot your own horn about the greatness of wizzair while desperately trying to get people to think you would be a super asset as a DEC in easyJet. You took a gamble and lost. Deal with it instead of crying over it. However, there may be a spot for you in Major Seville's outfit.

[Major Cleve Saville]

Hi Stansdead,

(oh sorry just realised I mentioned you directly, not stalking you just a big manly matey first name greeting, honest!).

Come and join us but only if you want a UK Pound 6 figure package tax free. Be prepared to fly only 55-60 hours a months.

Oh, and be careful with the crockery your crew meal comes in it's expensive.

Oh, and we are looking for DEC's at the moment so www (sorry not stalking, honest) and voldemort (can't mention his name stalking or sexual harrasment or something, anyway very bad form here on this oracle of absoloute fact:=), and co. won't apply on principle apparently.

Oh, I almost forgot you have a chance to change fleets if you fancy longhaul at some point.

Oh, and another thing nearly 2 months leave every year.

Oh people will say hello and call you by your name and smile at you too.

Oh if only I could work for easyJet mmm, do I smell a big dripping pile of ....roast?

Major C. Saville.

[SupaMach]

Anyone else dreading the day where we have to sit up front with this character?

[kick the tires]

He is certainly a bitter little man!

[stansdead]

You are really annoyed aren't you?

Why did I take a gamble and lose? Your argument doesn't stack up.

The reason you're really annoyed is because you know there is a real chain of your worst fears being realised. DEC's.

You work for a business, not a charity. If it makes good financial sense to employ well qualified, professionals (who aren't quite as annoyed as you are), your paymasters will do just that.

Deal with it.

As for my gamble: gained a Command, been promoted, would like to utilise it in UK or somewhere in Western Europe. That's all. No more. You made this personal by your puerile desire to protect your hallowed ground. Grow up.

[pilotsince99]

People do get promoted. I have been. i earn a lot more now. Honestly.

Where did I ever say eJ owe me a Command? A lot of you guys obviously think that all your FO's are owed one though. It doesn't work that way though. Sorry...... it is businessUnfortunetly for you, it does work that way. There will only be direct entry captains if there is not enough supply internally, that has always been the case and that will remain for the forseeable future.

[stansdead]

Pilotsince1999,

I've no problem with that. I do have a problem with some of your pontificating colleagues who think everyone else must be useless.

Your company, and their relationship with CTC, should be a serious concern for you all. FO's first as Flexicrew. Captains next? It's irresistible for your leaders.

That is my point. It is a business first and foremost.

[Craggenmore]

I flew with a new CTC flexi crew chap who is treading water as cabin crew.

For his first 500 hours or 8 months he will be earning £1200 a month and his CTC/HSBC loan repayment will be £1000 per month.

He will have to relocate himself to the base of Easy's choice and pay rent, eat, fuel the car and try to have some sort of life, all on just £200 per month for these first 8 months/500 hours.

He's already talking about bankruptcy and his course date is not till the New Year.

What business indeed.

Sounds like Swiss cheese with another 300 more in his position joining in the next 3-6 months.

Yikes......!

[pilotsince99]

Stansdead,
I know what you are saying and this has been of concern for us. The company did want DEC for the summer and it has been suggested. Our union though, has stopped any direct entry captains from entering the company, apart from a few CTC captains for training and familiarisation for the training of cadets. This to protect there own pilots. The entry of cadets was accepted as they did not disadvantage anyone in the company. Therefore there will be no DEC until the supply of our own runs dry. This has happend a few times in the past, but I don't think it will happen soon again.
The fastest way into the lefthand seat in easy, is to get direct entry into the righthand seat and I personally hope that these opportunities will open up again, as there are a lot of good folks with good experience flying around where the company could benefit a lot from.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Actually, you try to come across as a great professional but you have gained no easy way into where you think you deserve to be as a DEC, Stansdead. You may think you will be welcomed in here, but as you see, you will have no such luck and quite frankly, easyJet is the better place for it. You lost your gamble by gaining a cheap shot at a command thinking that it would open doors to the airlines you wish to join, but it won't. In there lies your defeat. Were it your desire to be a commander, you have succeeded, but that isn't what you wanted now, was it. You wanted to be a captain in a different place than where you are, for whatever reasons you may have for that. That won't happen, happily. Do your time and wait your turn like everybody else, instead of attempting to sneak past while boasting credentials that are not relevant.

[stansdead]

PS1999,

True. I'm glad you can see where I'm coming from. Stay safe, enjoy your flying.

Really annoyed,

You need to grow up. I have not, at any stage said I deserve a DEC at easy. I have said I'm qualified though.

I couldn't care less about being liked, welcomed, disliked or unwelcome. That's being an adult.

Somehow, I do not think you are a Captain. And with your juvenile and petty attitude you probably will fail your upgrade. So, that is one less SFO to promote....and the day draws closer.

Grow a pair, pick your toys up and put your dummy back in. You are embarrassing your profession.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

stansted, you said yesterday on this thread, post 147, page 4, 21:22hrs

So, before you go shouting your mouth off, DEC's will happen again in easyJet and I look forward to taking one.


You wouldn't stand a chance against our hundreds of excellent SFO's who know company manuals and SOP's backwards. And anyway you're not going to get the chance.

There won't be DEC's.


WWW

[Rod Eddington]

Grow a pair, pick your toys up and put your dummy back in. You are embarrassing your profession

I'm not sure it's ReallyAnnoyed who's embarrassing their profession!

[SupaMach]

I was just thinking the same Rod!

[calypso]

[QUOTE]I have said I'm qualified though./QUOTE]

You have demonstrated beyond any doubt quite the opposite.



You will not be a DEC at Ezy. Not only because we will not be hiring any DECs anytime soon, neither only because our SFOs deserve their chance ahead of outsiders but mostly because we simply could not be as cruel to force existing FOs to spend so many hours locked in the cockpit with such a arrogant, self important, self serving and narcissistic individual.

[Mi EASA Su EASA]

I'll try again, does anybody know if BALPA are doing anything about the poor flexi-contracts? Thanks

[Agaricus bisporus]

If they are illegal I'm sure they will. If they're not, well, what would you suggest they do? What would you suggest they can do? Wail that "It's not fair"? Lobbying just doesn't work with a hardball company like EJ.
And if these guys are employed by an agency and not EJ then EJ-BALPA can do precisely NOTHING for them in any situation as they do not and can not represent them. BALPA itself could, if the contract is illegal, but that would require the flexicrew guys themselves to organise a campaign with BALPA head office direct. Do you see that as a likely outcome? I doubt the company is losing any sleep over the possibility of that.

[Mi EASA Su EASA]

I see what your saying Agaricus bisporus. Just wanted to know if they had done anything or not. And no, I don't see that as a likely outcome because I feel that most CTC flexi guys would be just grateful for getting a job on a jet straight from training school, which is exactly why EJ can get away with offering Flexi guys such bad deals. Cheers

[OutsideCAS]

Perhaps highlighting to the travelling public on EZY flights how the flexicrew are abused on the payment front ?? a billboard advertisment outside the airport in a style akin to that which EZY use themselves with a few selected wordings ??

[clanger32]

OutsideCAS,
The problem is that you're talking purely from the perspective of someone who A) understands how badly paid pilots are B) How much work pilots actually DO and C) Someone that thinks that pilots should earn decent money (or at least presumably)

What you [where by you, I actually mean anyone who is involved in professional level aviation] have to understand, is that the general public believe - REALLY believe - that a brand new, out of the box first officer will earn somewhere between £50 and £80k a year. I'm not kidding you, the other week I asked someone what they thought a pilot earned and their view was a captain would be on well >£200k and a first officer £100k. Therefore, sad as it is, the travelling public just don't believe that a pilot earns that little. Then also compare that the national average wage is alleged to be around £27k - so what you're trying to highlight is that these poor little pilots, who only work a max of 900 hours a year, who potentially don't even have 5 GCSEs earn the national average....

You can see that this could be hard to drum up sympathy. You need to paint the whole picture first - and very few have the appetite to hear that.

[And as this is PPRuNe....clearly *I* know that 900 hours is flying time, doesnt' include duty time, doesn't have any factoring for stress or tiredness etc - but most lay men DON'T understand that!]

Major Cleve - I'll come work for you - do you accept (f)ATPL holders with little experience, looking for a first break with a questionable sense of humour...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A company offers an employment contract. Some people apply. They get offered the job. They sign the contract.

Good luck trying to turn that into either a news item or a legal case.


WWW

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

stansdead - have a read of some of your posts and tell me if you sound like the sort of person you would wish to employ at your own airline. Why, therefore, would we wish to employ you here, when we have so many better candidates among our own people?

Major - having started so well, it really is all starting to unravel. For whatever reason you do not like easyJet, and that is absolutely fine. Plenty of people do not like the low-cost world, and the great thing is you do not have to work here if you do not want to. Possibly harder for you to understand is that quite a lot of people do actually really enjoy working for easyJet, and I am unashamedly one of them. As I have said on numerous occasions, it is not perfect and for very little effort could be so much better. Nonetheless, it has much to commend it, as exemplified by people like stansdead hammering at our door in such an unsavoury manner. That door will remain resolutely closed to him and others like him, simply because we have so many top-quality, highly-motivated First Officers to promote ahead of him. I am proud that we increasingly look after our own, and see that quality as a sign of a maturing, professional airline.

Back to the original question - is there any recruitment likely at easyJet? The answer is yes, both internally and externally. We are recruiting 300 Oxford/CTC pilots who are predominantly low-houred cadets taking up their first job on temporary contracts, which may or may not be made permanent. A significant number of our current temporary flexi-crew pilots will be offered permanent jobs either in November or January (not sure of the exact numbers). We are also internally promoting in excess of 20 Line Captains into Training Captain positions plus upgrading a large number of our current trainers to TRI, TRE etc. In addition we are aiming to promote 168 new captains this coming year. I put it to any reasonable person reading those figures that they are good news by any criteria you care to use. Are we a perfect airline? Absolutely not. Are we a whole lot better to work for than many others out there? Most certainly.

[stansdead]

Another wide sweeping statement from you. How can you possibly tell if you have better candidates than me just by anonymous posts. Remember the terms of this forum.... Don't be drawn in.

I'm already doing the job as a Captain on Airbus. I've been doing it a while. How can your logic possibly be sensible, when an SFO has still to pass all the things that I have already passed?

This whole thing has got out of hand. You showed no resolve at all in easyJet to stop the rot for FO's - where was BALPA then? - but you now feel the need to ride your white charger over the hill to protect what you know will inevitably happen somewhere on your network. Indeed it did last summer in easySwiss. Contract Captains no less. Where were you, WWW & reallyannoyed then?

Oh, I remember. You were too busy taking £10k to fly a random roster.

Don't get me wrong, I quite admire all of you for fighting. I don't admire your sweeping statements about people being better or worse than each other.

You are meant to be a trainer fir God's sake. How can you allow yourself to stoop to such unfounded statements? Do you see what I mean?

By all means be annoyed that people like me would like to join your airline as a DEC - even though we all know how you joined - but you should think twice before trying to decide who is a better candidate for a Command job.

As far as I'm aware, I've never met you. I've never flown with you, therefore how can you possibly tell? Is that sixth sense part of the core course?

[KyleRB]

WingoWango

Have to agree with you! I have over 3000 hours and a full ATPL, but have "only" flown light turboprops and biz jets. Is the only way I can join by becoming a cadet!!?? If true that's so disheartening!! :sad:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Another wide sweeping statement from you. How can you possibly tell if you have better candidates than me just by anonymous posts. Remember the terms of this forum.... Don't be drawn in.

I'm already doing the job as a Captain on Airbus. I've been doing it a while. How can your logic possibly be sensible, when an SFO has still to pass all the things that I have already passed?


I can tell just because our exceptionally good SFO community in the Command holding pool wouldn't have posted comments on PPRuNe which made them sound like a complete tool.

I also doubt whether you know the minimum FFRS Cat we can accept and under what circumstance, what our stable approach criteria are and how they differ on a circle to land, how to work our flightplan system, what our Ops Manual says about downgraded equipment and Cat3, how our Roster Agreement impacts on Flight Duty hours or how our FDM scheme works and what its parameters are.

ALL of our SFO's are already masters of all this and much much more and have 4 and a bit years of FDM data and Sim checks to back up the fact that they are the Real Deal.

You. Are an unknown Arse.

A glaring example of why DEC's are such a Titanic risk.

And.

NEVER EVER EVER going to be an easyJet Captain.


Shall we move on? No pressure - this is fun.:rolleyes:


WWW

[superced]

Are we a perfect airline? Absolutely not. Are we a whole lot better to work for than many others out there? Most certainly.
:D:D:D

[No Country Members]

You. Are an unknown Arse.

Whether I agree or not I expected better of you.

Wow, this is getting very personal.

Quite.

How about some moderation?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Sorry to have disappointed you.

This is PPRuNe. Not the Womens Royal Auxillary Balloon Corps so dry your eyes darling.


stansdead decides to kick-off about being looking forward to taking a Direct Entry Command in easyJet because of his extensive experience..

:mad:


WWW

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I really am not sure why this conversation is continuing. If stansdead, or others like him, were to appear on some thread about BA or Virgin demanding to be let in as a DEC, he would be laughed out of court for all the same reasons he will not be considered at easyJet. He may or may not be a capable pilot and, despite his best efforts to hide it, he may even be a decent bloke - it simply does not matter and is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Notwithstanding his particularly unpleasant demeanour as presented on here, the fact remains that like BA, Virgin, Lufthansa, Cathay, KLM, BMI, Air France, American, United, Southwest, etc, etc we are going to promote our own. Why? Because we can and because we should - simple as that. In the past, both BA and Virgin took DECs when they had to. As soon as they could fill their command slots from within it all ended and that situation is unlikely ever to return. That is the case here - there really is nothing further to discuss. There are literally dozens of our own FOs reading stansdead's astounding words on here with uttter disbelief - who on earth is this guy demanding to be let into easyJet when we have hundreds of our own highly-qualified FOs? Why not start a thread about BA, Virgin or Cathay letting you in there as a DEC and see how much of a welcome you get there? You are never, ever, ever going to be offered a job at any of the airlines mentioned above, including easyJet, as a DEC - just get over it, move on and stop making an exhibition of yourself.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Please. Take NSF's advice and just stop this now.


The logical comparison laid out is irrefutable.
:=

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I also doubt whether you know the minimum FFRS Cat we can accept and under what circumstance, what our stable approach criteria are and how they differ on a circle to land, how to work our flightplan system, what our Ops Manual says about downgraded equipment and Cat3, how our Roster Agreement impacts on Flight Duty hours or how our FDM scheme works and what its parameters are.

And neither did anybody else before they joined easyjet. Including you. That is why there are such things as:

- Ground School - Here you will learn all that you need to know to operate our aeroplanes to our standard.
- Line Training - Here you will put into practice the theory which you spent the last few months learning. A Training Captain will then sign you off as capable.

You will, therefore, meet the required standard and become a known quantity.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with direct entry commands. Full stop. End of.

I can tell just because our exceptionally good SFO community in the Command holding pool wouldn't have posted comments on PPRuNe which made them sound like a complete tool.

What a ridiculous statement.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You learn in the RHS - not in Groundschool.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with direct entry commands. Full stop. End of.


Shove that. DEC's are a massive risk. Most, of course are brilliant and add go your experience pool instantly. But, like a box of chocolates..

In a decade of working in this company I know of only 3 Captains who "left". All DEC's.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

You can be as confrontational as you like but you know as well as I do that as soon as easy need DECs they'll bloody well have them. There aint a thing you can do about it either.

The only reason that you don't need them at the moment is because of the current recruitment market, or lack thereof.

Are you going to tell them to shove it?

To address NSF's point
If stansdead, or others like him, were to appear on some thread about BA or Virgin demanding to be let in as a DEC, he would be laughed out of court for all the same reasons he will not be considered at easyJet

The same reasons? No, not at all. The reason airlines such as the ones you mentioned very rarely take DECs is because they are long haul operators.

Nobody in their right mind would want to jump from the left seat of a short haul domestic and European operation to the left seat of ULH, polar, transatlantic, ETOPS, extended overwater ops. And nobody in their right mind would recruit such people. Two completely different types of operation no?

[Zippy Monster]

I can tell just because our exceptionally good SFO community in the Command holding pool wouldn't have posted comments on PPRuNe which made them sound like a complete tool.

What a ridiculous statement.

Why was it ridiculous? On the basis of what's been written in this increasingly entertaining thread so far, I'd say WWW's musings there are pretty spot-on.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I'm not saying WWW's judgement of stansdead is right or wrong.

It is however, ridiculous to suggest that his...
exceptionally good SFO community
...wouldn't do anything that would have...
made them sound like a complete tool

When:

a) He doesn't know all of the SFO's in the pool.
b) What you and I are like in real life may or may not be what we portray on the internet.

[bigjarv]

Usually you make more sense WWW. You usually put an end to squabbles! Whats got on your goat? Loaded question! Don't expect an answer! Keep going guys! Pointless and entertaining!!

[Gi Dem Dub]

been following this with interest.

WWW, NSF,

your are defending the principle of not taking DEC based on the availability of qualified SFO in your company. That is a perfect and unquestionable good reason.

But at the end of the day, all this is market forces driven. Should eJ need DEC some day for any reasonably acceptable reason -like when they took you NSF- then they will just recruit the numbers they need regardless of what you may think.

I don't think there is a need to get that personal towards Stansdead. Saying that he'll "never ever" get a shot as a DEC with eJ sounds more like your personal wish than what reality may possibly offer in the future based on an objective market context.

While I always read your numerous analysis with great interest and quite often agree with you guys, I think that on this occasion you have crossed the line of objectivity...

And regarding the list of technical reasons put forward to demonstrate the unqualified nature of DEC's, do you suggest that no airbus skipper outside eJ is able to acquaint him/her self with them in the right mindset and actually become a positive asset for the company? If I did not respect you guys from your history on this forum, I would have said that it's a bit arrogant...

safe flights all :ok:

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Gi Dem Dub, I believe it is based on the assumption that the rate of commands will be slower than the rate of SFOs becoming ready for command. The growth is not as high as it used to be. There have been some real porkers amongst the DECs of the past, but luckily a minority.

[stansdead]

Reallyannoyed,

I think it is based on the assumption that they got personal in this thread a few posts back. Along with you.

None of you are prepared to admit that you have no power over who is or isn't offered DEC's now or at any time in the future -admittedly, if it ever happens.

I may have got on your goats about the possibility of it, so that leads me to believe there is obviously a serious fear of it happening in the near future.

I have been singled out as "making an exhibition of myself" by self appointed experts on everything and that their argument is irrefutable against me, whilst they have been allowed to sling dirt in my direction without recourse - ah yes, the all knowing court of some easyJet anonymous posters on pprune. I should know better. You can never win, even if you play by their rules.

Why?

Because most people reading or contributing to this thread are from easyJet.

Therefore, they like the big strong NSF &WWW throwing their unjustified weight about and saying how good their outfit is, how great the training is and how bad everybody else is - because of one "Banzai" approach. You still didn't tell me what one is WWW....

However, others who aren't in easyJet think that your comments towards other individuals are wrong. You see, it's a matter of perception. And standpoint.

Anyone who knows me would say I'm a professional, with high standards who runs a very tight ship. That's the problem you see, none of you know me. You probably don't want to know me - no bother, I've got enough friends anyway and so have you I'm sure. But to suggest people aren't professionals because of an argument on an anonymous forum??? A bit basic....

[ricky-godf]

There are too many assumptions and arguments in this thread.

The FACTS are:

- it is extremely unlikely that easyJet will ever expand at the same rate it used to, as such there will be no shortage of suitably qualified FO to be promoted internally.

- if, under exceptional circumstances, the company will not have enough FO ready to be promoted internally (this is aviation, after all) they are certainly going to ask PARC or CTC to provide contract captains, instead of hiring DEC, to fill the gap until those FO will be ready.

This way they can guarantee those seats will be available again when internal FO are eventually ready (and avoid industrial action), but most importantly they can get the flexibility from contract captains (in terms of roster) that easyJet dreams of, which is impossible to get hiring DEC on easyJet contract.

Ricky

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Stansdead, the whole point is that DEC will not happen in easyJet, despite what you may hope for. I am not in recruitment and thus having nothing to do with to whom the jobs are offered - but the jobs won't be offered! No amount of boasting alleged credentials and cries of unfairness and business sense will change that. So yes, I retain my stand: You bet on the wrong horse if indeed Orange Land is where you wish to fly.

[stansdead]

I did not cry unfairness about lack of DEC jobs. The fact remains that IF such jobs were ever to be offered, I am qualified, or at least was on previous criteria. That is not a boast.

Anyway, back to reality.

Safe flying.

[Doug the Head]

I did not cry unfairness about lack of DEC jobs. The fact remains that IF such jobs were ever to be offered, I am qualified, or at least was on previous criteria. That is not a boast.Well, perhaps one day if DEC positions are available you'd meet the requirements to apply, whether you'd be qualified is another thing...

But do keep on hoping stansdead, because EZY (purposely?) c*cking up the pilot demographics might very well result in management soon crying crocodile tears claiming: 'we'd loooove to promote our own, but sorry, we now haaaave to hire DEC's' because our poor junior cadets living on bread and water, sleeping in car parks for the last 2 years do not yet meet the requirements.'

Oh yes, for all those people who think that NSF's fairy tales will shield you from DEC's: think again! It ain't gonna happen! The red thread running through that orange company is: divide/conquer, lather, rinse, repeat... Every 5-7 years the company can pull the same fast ones again and again because the new generation of pilots is again willing to believe the bullsh!t and the previous generation has moved on or has surrendered. :hmm:

The big picture: dangling one more carrot in front of those poor (but cheap!) cadets to prevent them from leaving too soon before their useful shelf life (a few years in the RHS and then LHS) has expired! Imagine: 'free' cadets paying their own type rating living on bread & water and then being able to squeeze even more productivity out of them in the LHS before they :mad: off to Emirates! A wet dream for any bonus oriented manager/accountant/training captain! :mad:

[Gi Dem Dub]

I thought it was appropriate to make the following remark in the context of this debate:

As professionals with some experience in this industry, we should all know that our say as simple pilots regarding our respective companies recruitment policies is most of the time non-existent or very limited.

Then the certitudes expressed by the eJ pilots on here regarding DEC's may well be the result of a logical analysis of a given situation. But that certitude also happens to suit them and it "only" remains their own personal opinion. Unless they actually are members of eJ management in which case it's another story...

Otherwise nobody knows for sure what tomorrow is made of and this applies to any simple pilot of any company. Therefore having such heated debates on the subject and making personal attacks towards each other is a bit .... over the top....

me thinks

[Doug the Head]

How would they ever fight the recruitment policies, when they fail so miserably in another aspect which is far more important union-strategic wise?Exactly Studi!

Despite all the beautiful (and completely irrelevant :hmm:) comparisons with BA, Virgin or Cathay from NSF, the EZY workforce was powerless when TRSS came along, they are powerless when cadets are exploited on sub-human contracts and they also will be powerless if/when DEC's are hired...again! :ugh:

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Although Doug the Head and I do not always agree, on this occasion I agree that the pilot community has proven weak in the past when it should have been stronger. The disgraceful First Officer divide-and-conquer contracts are indefensible, and I have never attempted to do so. As I have said previously, there are some great aspects of working for easyJet and some less than ideal ones. I also back Studi's views about the principle of easyJet pilots for easyJet cockpits. We could and should have been stronger on this. The bottom line is that if we do not back BALPA we will never achieve that.

I stand by my view that no airline of any calibre will take DECs when there are guys to promote. As I have openly stated, I was once a DEC at a time when there was a shortage of suitable and experienced SFOs to promote. As others are so clearly saying, that situation is unlikely to return for the foreseaable future and therefore the comparisons with BA, Virgin and Cathay are entirely appropriate. I do accept that there are individuals lurking within the management structure who have failed to grasp how not to stuff their boys. Like every other airline that is expanding, we would look at DECs when we cannot fill the cockpits - that is a situation that I cannot envisage any time soon. As long as there are promotable SFOs we must, without exception, promote them before taking on DECs. For all those interested in stats, after 2012 we have no more aircraft on order - if that stays the same then any talk of DECs is simply wasted breath and heartbeats.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

the comparisons with BA, Virgin and Cathay are entirely appropriate

I'm afraid not Norm. They couldn't be more inappropriate.

You will, more than likely, find that when Virgin recruited DEC's they were already experienced long haul operators. The reason why there are so many experienced SFO's in long haul ops is because of the long time to command. This allows said SFO's to gain a lot of experience in the type of operation that is not as repetitive as short haul. The type of operation that we short haul types have no experience in.

Now, there are millions of experienced short haul operators in Europe and the UK, in both seats, who are more than capable of operating as a captain, immediately. Doesn't matter who for either.

The same millions of experienced pilots are very incapable of operating as a long haul captain, immediately, because they have no experience of long haul whatsoever.

That is the difference between easy and Virgin/Cathay/BA and to compare one shorthaul company (regardless of identity) to other long haul companies is most odd.

[Iver]

Sort of a side question from the current debate about Eazy. Do you guys continue to hire into the 737NG fleet and how much longer do you think Eazy will keep them vs. the Airbus? Are most 737NG pilots migrating over to the Airbus?

Cheers

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Lord Spandex Masher - Have I not told you billions of times not to exaggerate?! Not having counted them I cannot be certain, but I am reasonably confident that there are not 'millions of experienced short haul operators in Europe and the UK'. That aside, you are totally missing the point of the analogy in due to some unnecessary offence taken over the pecking order of long haul above short haul in your own mind. It clearly goes without saying that anyone applying for a DEC has the experience necessary to fulfil the role. It is self-evident that long-haul experience would be a reasonable pre-requisite for the job at Virgin or Cathay. That means that if in the past Virgin wanted DECs on B747s they would look to BA or the like for the appropriate experience. The key point is that they took people from outside because they had insufficient experience in their own ranks to do the job. Once they had the necessary experience the rules quite rightly changed to favour promotion from within. Would a highly-experienced BA B747-400 Training Captain be a better bet to employ as a Captain at Virgin than a newly promoted, untried-in-role, First Officer from within. Quite possibly - but that is completely irrelevant. The key thing is that as long as a First Officer from within has the necessary experience then you must always promote them first before you look outside - that principle is made to apply at Virgin, Cathay, BA etc and must be made to apply at easyJet. All the pilots at easyJet are saying is that they want the same deal applied to them that applies to other quality airlines. I fail to see the difficulty that some of the people taking part in this debate have with that.

We have significant complexities in our operation compared to the other companies mentioned. Most notably, we have multiple nationalities and numerous European bases with many different contracts plus local tax, pension and social security arrangements to contend with. This makes the corporate representation of all pilots very difficult for both the company and those who represent us. Nonetheless, we can and must be sure that despite these difficulties we stay as one in establishing the basic principles of how our company should run.

Regarding Iver's question about the 737, I will leave it to others with more knowledge to give us the true information on that one.

[White Knight]

I can tell just because our exceptionally good SFO community in the Command holding pool wouldn't have posted comments on PPRuNe which made them sound like a complete tool.

I also doubt whether you know the minimum FFRS Cat we can accept and under what circumstance, what our stable approach criteria are and how they differ on a circle to land, how to work our flightplan system, what our Ops Manual says about downgraded equipment and Cat3, how our Roster Agreement impacts on Flight Duty hours or how our FDM scheme works and what its parameters are.

ALL of our SFO's are already masters of all this and much much more and have 4 and a bit years of FDM data and Sim checks to back up the fact that they are the Real Deal.

You. Are an unknown Arse.

A glaring example of why DEC's are such a Titanic risk.

And.

NEVER EVER EVER going to be an easyJet Captain.


Shall we move on? No pressure - this is fun.


WWW

You're a mod?

What an arse:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[frank booth]

Sorry but to compare easy to ba and the like is just ludicrous in the extreme. The sickening flexi crew contracts would have never been tolerated, not even as a concept, let alone while secure captains accepted huge bonuses whilst these poor sods barely survived. Shame on you that took the money. You had a chance to bargain with strength and you pissed it away. The management must love you guys, and the fo's , you're fellow workers, must want to spit in your coffee. And the up shot is, a line training captain and www, a so called wannabe Oracle and mod pansying about with hand bags over decs. Is it any wonder this industry is getting ever more :mad:......

[stansdead]

That seems a fair response Frank.

[gyni]

This thread is becoming increasingly embarrassing. Are we really expected to believe that NSF and the meerkat are two different people? I agree that it is truly laughable to compare easyJet with a properly represented BALPA airline - how can we honestly believe that there won't be any DEC positions next summer when a pilots' union in easyJet is really just an oxymoron. Nobody in the CC shows any visible leadership whatsoever and the decreasing percentage of members are happy to accept whatever they are told for the most part. If DECs were to appear on the bus fleet next summer (for the people that don't realise that CTC have already provided them this summer) then I find it very hard to believe that the CC won't once again tow the company line and tell us all that it is a necessary evil and that we wouldn't want to cost the company any money would we?!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

White Knight said (5 1/2 years ago)

BLE- I didn't say all DEC's are useless, I said a FEW DUDS!!! Most of the guys I've flown with (DEC's that is) are switched on and very likeable. And no, they haven't actually gone through the same hiring process!!!!
Doesn't change the fact that they're totally surplus to requirements does it?

http://www.pprune.org/1911172-post47.html

Did you just wander in here out of curiosity of is the soul destroying nature of Dubai making you explore the internet more?


Sorry that some of you don't like easyJets recruitment policy or easyJets employment contracts or easyJets BALPA Company Council decisions. But hey. Its got nothing to do with you. :eek:


WWW

[Doug the Head]

Although Doug the Head and I do not always agree, on this occasion I agree that the pilot community has proven weak in the past when it should have been stronger.Well Norm, that's because, in the past (and present!) people like you have been living in an orange bubble and brushing everything that stinks under the carpet by shooting the messengers with your pathetic "why don't you just leave" rhetoric!

People like you made this possible by making sure people take their eyes of the important fundamental issues at stake with your orange bullsh!t propaganda!

My 2 cents of advice to the cadets reading this thread: get the type (hell, you paid for it anyway!), get the hours and get out! BA, Virgin, Cathay (basically all the companies NSF compares EZY to, LOL! :p) are hiring or will be hiring soon. :ok:
Ask yourself: would Virgin have worked you to max duty in return for peanuts after you had paid for your type rating yourself? Did BA hire any DEC's in the last 2-3 decades? Do you have to beg for a few crew sandwiches with Cathay or do they exploit cadets under various schemes?

p.s. Don't worry about leaving either orange LH or RH seat empty, Norman will be more than happy to do both jobs because as a training captain he's most probably dual seat qualified! ;)

[Major Cleve Saville]

Well said Doug The Head,

My advice to easyJet cadets is the same. Remember a lot of posters here have only worked for easyJet (or worse employers). Take your hard earned licence to an airline that treats you with respect. 40 years with a UK low cost carrier really is a life sentence.

Don't believe this is as good as it gets, as WWW and 'he who cannot be mentioned' will have you believe. They simply don't know any better.

You will have a better quality of life, a more interesting career and more opportunity elsewhere. Get your hours do your sums and get out you owe easy absoloutely no loyalty whatsoever.

Dont pay to much attention to WWW and others, they have their own agendas. easyJet will always do what they want in the interests of the bottom line, it will never be a great employer, fullstop, period, and no union will ever change that.

[SMOOTHFLIER]

Easyjet really is pathetic these days, following ryanair down the hole.
It has become somewhere to get started out of flight school and in my opinion not a career airline anymore,
I left some time ago and have been asked back under contract but I wont unless I really have to.Even if I do have to it will only be for a short period until I get the next job lined up. Easyjet are facilitating this as they think first officers have no other options, theyre wrong.
Contract captains or not they treat their first officers who are their captains of the future like ****.
Any cadets or wannabes following this, Pay your money get the experience then move on, I mean who wants 40 years of this grief?

[Shaman]

Alexander de Merkat,

Thank you very much for posting the Boeing fleet update - it was very helpful.

[Jihad Jim]

I also doubt whether you know the minimum FFRS Cat we can accept and under what circumstance, what our stable approach criteria are and how they differ on a circle to land, how to work our flightplan system, what our Ops Manual says about downgraded equipment and Cat3, how our Roster Agreement impacts on Flight Duty hours or how our FDM scheme works and what its parameters are.

ALL of our SFO's are already masters of all this and much much more and have 4 and a bit years of FDM data and Sim checks to back up the fact that they are the Real Deal.

You. Are an unknown Arse.

A glaring example of why DEC's are such a Titanic risk.



Wee Welshman Moderate this......you are the arse on here
All you know about this industry you have seen through Pprune or Easyjet, both institutions where you have ingratiated yourself.

If the above company specific version of generic knowledge (and more) is all that seperates you from a DEC then you havent achieved much in your 10 year transformation from keen wannabe at the 1999 job seekers conference to pompous patronising Captain at easyjet. A contract captain would probably less interested in the above ,and not bother to learn your local version, but you're probably a trainer or a manager by now and so sanction that particular model of DEC so as to further ingratiate yourself into the Ej culture. You've known one OM-A, way to go champ.

The above is not a yardstick for jeopardy nor a seperate qualification that only time served F/Os can achieve.It is learnable in an afternoon and many guys have done so at many companies without a 10yr apprenticeship. Many people looking for a DEC position will have been made redundant and will have forgotten more than you have learnt during your industry wide 11 years on an orangejet.Some of the items they will have forgotten are the things you've mentioned. Ten pounds says theyll re aqquaint themslves with the EJ version in an hour or two. Then what value your 11 years. especially when EJ tire of you and you end up meeting another companys version of yourself on the job hunt.You may well meet on the way down people you pissed off on the way up.

Im in the desert with Mr Knight , having a ball on the left seat of a 777 in the "soul destroying" Dubai , Job number 4 for me and despite the moaning on here , infintely better than the lo cost life. Now before you ask me I'm here because I was the same generation as you at EJ but from a previous employer not flight school, hence my interest in your opinions.
As for being a moderator, well that was for the wannabes section wasnt it? Ah the heady days of kow towing with the then pprune owners .A life skill that has served you well at EJ.

Congratulations on your transformation and I hope the added knowledge you aquired, that sets you above mere DECs, was worth it.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Norm,

there are not 'millions of experienced short haul operators in Europe and the UK'

Ok, I was exaggerating for effect. There are however, (in the style of Monty Python) a lot!

That aside, you are totally missing the point of the analogy in due to some unnecessary offence taken over the pecking order of long haul above short haul in your own mind

Cheap shot that one. It's not a pecking order it's a simple fact. You need adequate flying experience to become a long haul F/O. You need adequate long haul experience to become a long haul captain. I don't take offence at all, I have got adequate experience. I still have plenty of time on my hands, have you? :E

The key thing is that as long as a First Officer from within has the necessary experience then you must always promote them first before you look outside - that principle is made to apply at Virgin, Cathay, BA etc and must be made to apply at easyJet

Ok, I agree with what you're saying here. But, you can also then compare the likes of Aurigny and Loganair to BA and Virgin. They have plenty of experienced F/O's ready for command aswell.

The point I'm trying to make is that, sometimes, DEC's are a necessary part of the recruitment process, you are proof of this. Easy wont always have enough suitable SFO's ready for command so they will need to recruit DEC's. It may be the case that it isn't likely at the moment but sooner or later it'll happen again...and again and again.

If you and WWW could wind up your crystal balls and let me know what the lottery numbers are going to be next week I'd appreciate it.

[Shaman]

<<..... Captains remaining on the [NG] fleet to 8 in total. ........a number of Boeing contract Captains on short term contract....... We plan to contract up to a total of 12 Captains and all will be contracted to the end of Summer 2011>>

What? 20 captains to crew 2 a/c?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Shaman, yes. That's what you need. Its complicated.


Spandex - I don't need a crystal ball to tell me that in 2011 easyJet won't need to hire/promote 350 pilots like they did in 2006. There's less than 14 new aircraft coming next year minus fleet disposals. The brief 14 month window when DEC's were a feature of easyJets rapid expansion is over. At that time (four years ago) every single FO with 3,000 factored hours was either promoted or didn't make it/didn't go for it. So DEC's were needed. DEC's came in and contributed greatly to the company brining a wealth of experience and knowledge to the company (thanks BMI).

Now easyJet employs a thousand first officers. They rack up 70 - 90 hours a month. That's a pretty deep well and it ain't gonna run dry unless something really unexpected happens. 2006 isn't on the cards. If easyJet announces a new order for 48 aircraft all to be delivered in 2011 then sure - DEC's will happen again. Keep an ear out for that announcement. :eek:


WWW

[Major Cleve Saville]

Well said Jihad Jim,

WWW your statements:

'I also doubt whether you know the minimum FFRS Cat we can accept and under what circumstance, what our stable approach criteria are and how they differ on a circle to land, how to work our flightplan system, what our Ops Manual says about downgraded equipment and Cat3, how our Roster Agreement impacts on Flight Duty hours or how our FDM scheme works and what its parameters are.

ALL of our SFO's are already masters of all this and much much more and have 4 and a bit years of FDM data and Sim checks to back up the fact that they are the Real Deal.

You. Are an unknown Arse.

A glaring example of why DEC's are such a Titanic risk.'
- Illustrate your lack of knowledge of EU-OPS either that or you are telling us easyJet is non-compliant with EU-OPS in terms of CAT II/III operations.:=

Stable approach criteria most of us could learn in 5 minutes.

FFRS is presumably standard for 319/320/321 or are you saying easyJet do not comply with ICAO standards? :=

Downgraded qirfield equipment again is there not a standard EU-OPS table in the manual? Do easyJet pilots have to memorise it? Are easyJet not compliant with EU-OPS? :=

Rostering and FTL is that not in the manual or have you memorised it. I guess with easyJets rostering you are likely to get very familiar with the FTL scheme very quickly.:rolleyes:

Do easyJet pilots operate to the limits of the FDM parameters? I hope not, the FDM parameters are set to show deviations outside normal SOP parameters. Operating to FDM limits sounds very un-professional to me and not to be encouraged (most airlines will not publish parameters for this reason). Far better to operate to SOPS and never come close to FDM parameters. :=

You make it sound like DECs receive no training at all when they join easyJet.

Sounds like working with a company like this that appears, from what you imply, to be non-compliant with EU-OPS and basic ICAO regulations, and crews obviously lacking in basic awareness of international regulation is indeed 'a titanic risk'.

I only have 30 years of Sim checks and 21 years of FDM data to back me up as well as being a TRI/TRE, TRI Instructor & TRI Examiner, RETRE, CAA Flight test approval etc etc. But I guess I am not 'the real deal' compared to an easyJet first officer with 4 years experience.

Furthermore I have to ask who moderates the moderators? Pprune is good for healthy debate and some tongue in cheek wind-ups but hurling abuse seems to be abusing the position of moderator.

Major Cleve Saville.

[skyrider2001]

:p:p:p:p what nowadays calls themselfs TRE/TRI Line Cpt or whatsoever is anyway i big joke!!!
........ the most suitable candidate often dont have these postions anymore sad but true.... :eek::eek::eek:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I don't need a crystal ball to tell me that in 2011 easyJet won't need to hire/promote 350 pilots like they did in 2006

That's a pretty deep well and it ain't gonna run dry unless something really unexpected happens

First, are you implying that you know what is going to happen...even if it's not going to happen...until it does? How cool is that!?

Second, you can't really quantify unexpected. It either is or it isn't!

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

YThgBvOYd10

[calypso]

Alex the Meercat:

you must really love Pprune to put an internal memo talking about company strategy in an open forum such as this. Besides the fact that it will be sackable offense I would suggest that it is quite daft to give (any part of) the game away to our competitors for the sake of making an obscure point to strangers on the net. There is always the delete button......

And now look what the cat brought in!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Another thing WWW,

DEC's came in and contributed greatly to the company brining a wealth of experience and knowledge to the company

A glaring example of why DEC's are such a Titanic risk

You're sounding more and more confused and desperate old son.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Leo Hairy Camel - we are indeed honoured, nay humbled, by your participation in this gutter-level discussion on such mundane issues as easyJet seniority and future recruitment plans. I trust the Pikey Emporium is treating you well and that your Lord and Master, King Michael the Belligerent of Dublin holds you close to his bosom. As so often in the past, you made me roar with laughter and your contribution is indeed much appreciated by me at least!

Major - I really do not know what you are doing here, looking for an argument on just about any issue. Deeply impressed as we all are by your George Cross in the Cod War, DFC and Bar in the Third CAA Pilgrimage to Constantinople etc, not to mention the 65 years' loyal service to the Blind Horse Flying Association of Calcutta, it really is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Once we got onto the compliance with EU-OPS, I nearly had to take smelling salts to regain consciousness. I understand you do not like easyJet - that is absolutely fine, but even you must see it cannot be all bad here given the number of people champing at the bit to get in. For what it is worth, WWW is my mate and I actually think he speaks a lot of sense. I understand his style may not be to everyone's taste, but he is knowledgeable on a vast range of issues, both in and out of the industry. Give him a chance and he may even be able to participate in a sensible discussion on all the largely irrelevant issues you want to bring up.

Calypso - I note that Alexander de Meerkat (whose name you cannot even spell) seems to have been scared off and removed his quite informative post. I would hardly have called it state secrets, and his departure from the scene of battle is regrettable due to his apparent inside knowledge of what the real deal is on contracts etc. Nonetheless, I would like to encourage him to return in the future.

Doug the Head. Inspiring as your words are to the less informed, I am struggling to recall a single positive suggestion from you of any kind that would have prevented any of the abuses you so resent happening at easyJet. Your stated position is one of hating the ground easyJet was built on and that fundamentally we are all doomed. Anyone who stays here is a loser and anyone who sees any good in easyJet is just a management stooge. Real men should just slit their wrists in the cockpit to punish easyJet for existing. Try as I might, I have yet to see one single sensible suggestion from you as to a credible course of action in your dealings with the company. Should we just bankrupt easyJet to show 'them' just how bad things are? Yes - let's do that as that would show them. I am looking for concrete, credible suggestions. I will strike like anyone else for the right reason - and there have been a number of them. What I will not do is bring down the company just because we can - that is utter insanity.

737Jock - very interesting discussion about the French etc. I think there may be some merit in your argument. I certainly will be in discussion with our BALPA reps about a more united front.

This thread has run its course for me. There are some serious knuckleheads here who seem unable to grasp the essence of the discussion. The bottom line is that we will fight tooth and nail to prevent DECs as long as we have promotable FOs - a concept that exists in every other respectable airline of note. Whether we need them or not will be seen in the next year or so - my firm belief is we will not and should not give into the alleged need to do so if it is presented to us. Thanks for the chat guys - but I must return back to my lair to attend to more pressing matters.

[Major Cleve Saville]

The bottom line is that we will fight tooth and nail to prevent DECs as long as we have promotable FOs - a concept that exists in every other respectable airline of note.

I think the 'other is in the wrong place here, I suggest this should read:

The bottom line is that we will fight tooth and nail to prevent OTHER DECs as long as we have promotable FOs - a concept that exists in every respectable airline of note.

There you are, much more accurate.

Look at the list of easyJet directors on their website. Is there one Director connected with the actual operation of the aircraft?

No? So what is not what is easyJet about? Flying aircraft or sales and marketing.

If easyJet pilots want real improvement in their lot they should choose the best representatives they can. For example a DEC arguing against DECs will be laughed out of town.

I suggest all easyJet pilots watch these. Very accurate.

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/430835-pilot-negotiation-little-humor.html

Note the line: 'Your seniority system means you have no leverage'.

By the way he who cannot be named, keeps praising my exploits and naming me. Do you think he is allegedly 'grooming' me for something. I hope not as that would be very bad form here on pprune old chap.

And what am I doing here? Posting comment on a freely accessable bulletin board available on the world wide web. This bulletin board and this topic are freely available to everyone, anywhere in the world regardless of creed, colour (including orange) age etc etc. This is freedom. It does not belong to easyJet, easyJet pilots or the lecturing, condescending, holier than you, Captain 'who's name I cannot mention but he is a baldy Scottish Training Captain', of easyjet.

Bye bye,


Major Cleve Saville

[SR71]

DEC's will be back at EZY yesterday if the DEC T&C's are <90% of the existing ones...

Hell, I might even apply.

:E

I imagine such T&C's will be resisted with the same kind of conviction the Flexicrew contracts were resisted with...

:E

[No Country Members]

This is PPRuNe. Not the Womens Royal Auxillary Balloon Corps so dry your eyes darling.

Quite.
However I was referring to the lack of intelligence in your "arse" comment. Not really interested in the emotion you wish to portray either. As stated, I expected better of you, based on having read your postings in the past.

I was calling for an end to the childishness displayed here, but like as not it won't happen. Hence the WRABC would probably be an excellent analogy. You could learn much from Leo HC regarding provocation: he is at least intelligent and extremely funny therein.

As for the subject of this thread, the question has been answered: yes there will, but only for a select few with the correct low number of hours, the correct weighting in the appropriate banking circle, and the money to support same, and the correct qualification from the approved school (pun intended). The rest of us need not apply.

[Dr Eckener]

I certainly will be in discussion with our BALPA reps about a more united front

Will you also be in discussion about EJs pay to fly scheme? It is p2f no matter how deep you bury your head in the sand.

[calypso]

Wether you like it or not revealing inside information IS a sackable offense and hence not very clever. I could have made the effort to spell his username but frankly I could not be bothered.

Digs at spelling in pprune = yawn! :zzz::zzz::zzz:

[Craggenmore]

In a decade of working in this company I know of only 3 Captains who "left". All DEC's.

Have you actually met anybody who wanted to join?

Apart from..........

The ex-legacy lot who are pension topping.
The GB pilots who relucantly came via the take-over.
The CTC/OAT cadets who are placed here (and really dont care where they start with £100k of debt and interest building.)

Or.......

The former BMI pilots who came over purely for DEC positions in 07/08...

[captplaystation]

Cher Leo,
Didn't hear from you for so long, but what a "comeback".
Always in need of a larf,and for the second consecutive day you have provided it, thanks me old mucker.

[Lubeoil]

I see that Easyjet pilot recruitment page now has links to CTC, OAA and Parc which would suggest that they need pilots. As far as I can see though still no opportunity for expierienced FOs unless rated on the Airbus. Would I be correct in saying that there is still no way in for experienced Boeing FOs?

[169west]

Would I be correct in saying that there is still no way in for experienced Boeing FOs?

You should add also Airbus FOs since it's better to hire willing to pay FOs with no-TR then hire TR FOs who wants to be paid! P2F program it's better for the schools, the company and ... in case of an other downturn it's Easy to send people home since they are just kids!

[ReallyAnnoyed]

The boeing fleet number will be down to 2 in the early spring, so pretty much a plane of the past in orange land.

[Ray Ban]

This is frustrating!

I have approaching 2000 hours, lots of multi crew hours on biz jets and light turboprops but no airline is interested in me unless I pay them for training.

What choice have I got? Been made redundant twice in last 2 years, haven't worked full-time in over a year, only crumbs of freelance but still current on type with class 1 medical.

Too far gone down the road to pull out of aviation and almost 40 years of age so time not on my side! :sad:

What choice have I got other than the dreadful P2F schemes to get flying again?? Apparently I am too old for the CTC scheme and have "too much" experience! :{

I bet if I enquire I'll be too old for the P2F schemes as well! :confused: :sad:

[Cmon-PullUP]

At a recent briefing with a manager i was told that the aim in Ezy is to up the crewing levels, so we will have 6 crew pr aircraft in stead of the current 4.8 (or thereabout) we have now.

That put together with new aircrafts coming, lots of upgrades, a fair amount of people leaving and better cadet contracts in other airlines, one can only hope we will run out of people willing to work on the cadet contracts so more experienced guys can join as well.

I hasten to say that the info was delivered verbally, so no guarantee their plans will still be the same tomorrow.

[boogi]

Hello,

I'm qualified on airbus 320 (but no hours on type) and I would like to fly for easyjet.

I'have been on easyjet website and found that : Pilot Careers - Careers in the Air - easyJet Careers (http://www.easyjetcareers.com/careers-in-the-air/pilot-careers/)

CTC flexi crew
Parc Aviation.

How does CTC flexi crew work?Is there a chance they call me? I can't find anything about easyjet on Parc website. :confused:

Thanks

BR

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Speak to Kallipso - he seems to know about company policy, even if he can't spell. Alas, Superpilot is right as far as I know - you will, generally speaking, require 150 hours on-type. There are exceptions, but that would only be if you were an experienced pilot on other commercial types (146, 737 etc). Hope that helps.

[boogi]

Ok! thank you Norman Stanley Fletcher and Superpilot! So 150 hours for parc:{, but what about flexi crew via ctc?

[favete linguis]

... as far as I know - you will, generally speaking, require 150 hours on-type. There are exceptions, but that would only be if you were an experienced pilot on other commercial types (146, 737 etc)...

Last I heard it was 500 hours on type required. Possibly things have changed and maybe NSF is more up to date than me but I would check with the company first.

[Shaman]

Anyone have the latest news on the requirement for B737 contract captains?

[flylogan]

From BBC Business News:

Budget airline Easyjet has seen profits almost triple on rising passenger numbers and cheaper fuel.
The carrier made profits of £154m in the 12 months to September, up from £55m a year earlier.
Passenger volumes rose 8% in the year to 49 million, helping to push its share of the European market up to 7.6% from 6.5% a year earlier. Fuel costs were down 9%.
The company also said it would pay its first dividend - but not until 2012.
Europe strategy
Easyjet is benefiting from the continuing migration of passengers on continental Europe away from national carriers towards budget airlines - a pattern already well established in its home market Britain.
"We see clear opportunities for Easyjet to continue to take market share as charter traffic continues to decline, as weaker short-haul carriers retrench or fail and as new infrastructure capacity comes on stream," said Easyjet's new chief executive, Carolyn McCall, commenting on the full-year results (http://corporate.easyjet.com/en/investors/results-centre/~/media/Files/E/easyJet/pdf/media/latest-news/2010/2010-11-16.pdf).
She expects low-cost carriers like her company to make further headway in France, Switzerland, Italy, Netherlands and Portugal in the coming months, pushing budget airlines' share of these markets to around 50%.
In anticipation of this growth, the airline announced that it would buy another 24 planes by September 2013, representing a 12% increase in its fleet.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Will we see improved T&C'S? ;)

[Mintflavour]

Im glad I turned down the offer to pay £34K for TR and line training to fly as a contract pilot for them..... as this news would have rubbed salt in a very sore bank account.. Takes the piss.

Rant over.

mint

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Budget airline Easyjet has seen profits almost triple on rising pay to fly cadet numbers and cheaper hourly rates for contract pilots.

Well done boys, you paid for it.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

The 150 hours I quoted is related to the self-sponsored ex-BMI cadets who have come to us following 150 hours line training at BMI. I cannot give you specific 'chapter and verse' on the company recruitment policy right now as, in all honesty, it varies day to day. Nonetheless, it is undoubtedly true that there are several pilots with around 350 hours TT and 150 hours on the Airbus being employed through Parc by easyJet. I hope that clarifies the situation.

[Wodka]

All it clarifies is that EZY does in reality support the P2F concept by using the BMI P2F scheme as an entry stream. The very scheme that started its ugly life at EZY.

How very disappointing :yuk:

[Happy_Days]

Apart from the BMI P2F guys didn't get paid?
So not really the same thing.

[Circe2]

Has easyJet decided on how many 737 contract captains will be required for next year - I have not heard anything for weeks and am trying to work out if this means "thanks, but no thanks" or whether no decision has been taken yet...........

[kick the tires]

Watch this space!

They are getting towards the bottom of the command waiting list and are VERY short of suitable people to promote.

I suspect a solution will be to move people off the 73 and early onto the Bus.

[Circe2]

Thanks for the replies. I shall just have to be patient.............