Engine failure B742 FRA

[contractor25]

A B747-200 has made an RTO due to an uncontained engine failure at FRA yesterday apparently resulting in substancial damage to wing and fuselage says a report on Avherald.

Does anyone have any pictures of this incident? It's of interest as I'm a structural mechanic.

[akerosid]

Most likely this incident:

Accident: Southern Air B742 at Frankfurt on Sep 24th 2010, rejected takeoff due to uncontained engine failure (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=43163309&opt=0)

[411A]

Expect more of this kind of incident as Kalitta has acquired many ex-NWA -200F's....and these are very old airplanes, of questionable serviceability.
IE: DAL got rid of them for a very good reason.

[Willit Run]

FO wun wun,
Seein as how dat faylure was a GEE EEE, and da NWA flyin macheens got Pratts, not so sure dats gonna be a problim.

[SNS3Guppy]

Expect more of this kind of incident as Kalitta has acquired many ex-NWA -200F's....and these are very old airplanes, of questionable serviceability.

Perhaps you haven't actually seen or flown those airplanes. I have, recently, and they weren't in bad shape at all. Quite good, actually. One is the last -200 off the assembly line, I believe, and featured a number of -400 parts...not a bad airplane at all. Furthermore, they'll be making a number of upgrades.

Delta/NWA didn't park them because they were no longer serviceable. They were no longer flying the Classic, and elected not to continue as the sole remaining legacy carrier with it's own freight division.

[411A]

... and elected not to continue as the sole remaining legacy carrier with it's own freight division.
With good reason.:}

[TowerDog]

Logged 15 years on the classics, bad maintenance and all, for several "carriers", never had one of questionable serviceability.


A bit of luck is involved in this business, or lack of:

Air France Concord, BA B-777, Singapore B-744, etc. :sad:

[SNS3Guppy]

With good reason.

The "good reason" is that they don't operate the classic. Go figure.

So far as discontinuing freight; they could have continued with other types they operate, such as the 777. Delta elected not to do so.

[411A]

It's all quite simple.
I was personally told by three separate VP's at DAL about seven years ago, that....'we will never again purchase a four engine type and, if we buy or merge with another carrier that has four engine types, they will be sold as rapidly as possible, without disrupting scheduled service
And, we will never be in the freight business again.'

Now, as for Kalitta, we all remember this...:eek:
CHICAGO (AP) _ A cargo plane bound for New York's Kennedy International Airport landed safely at Detroit Metropolitan Airport after losing an engine somewhere over Michigan.
The Kalitta Air jet took off from O'Hare International Airport in Chicago late Wednesday. It later reported mechanical problems with one of its engines, a Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman in Chicago said.
The Boeing 741-R was able to fly but was diverted as a safety precaution to Detroit, where it landed without incident, FAA officials said. No one was injured.
After the landing, airline personnel discovered the engine was completely gone, FAA officials said.

[SNS3Guppy]

It's all quite simple.
I was personally told by three separate VP's at DAL about seven years ago, that....'we will never again purchase a four engine type and, if we buy or merge with another carrier that has four engine types, they will be sold as rapidly as possible, without disrupting scheduled service
And, we will never be in the freight business again.'

Which belies your attempted point that the airplanes were retired for their poor condition. They were not, and they are not in poor condition. Again, I've flown them recently. You?

Now, as for Kalitta, we all remember this...

Also irrelevant to the matter at hand. Given that your assertions are without merit, perhaps you'll simply drop it, and go back to carrying on about the L-1011.

[Huck]

There were quarters where the only part of NWA that made money was the cargo side.

[Capetonian]

FO wun wun,
Seein as how dat faylure was a GEE EEE, and da NWA flyin macheens got Pratts, not so sure dats gonna be a problim.

Could a mod please remove this ridiculous posting. I thought postings had to be in English unless on one of the foreign language forums. Thank you.

[SMOC]

Fun Police have arrived :D

[411A]

Also irrelevant to the matter at hand.
Hardly...just as BRU and BOG are relevant with any reference to Kalitta.

There were quarters where the only part of NWA that made money was the cargo side.
Now that is a true statement.
The acft at FRA was Southern Air, I believe, and these GE engines have an urgent AD, which is very serious business.
I was recently told by a senior FAA type that (some) Pratt models will be affected by a similar AD shortly.

[SMT Member]

Looks like another CF6-50 has blown up. The original NTSB recommendation called for borescoping every 20ish hours. The FAA changed that to 75ish, but of course I would never suggest that was in any way as a result of commercial pressure. The ACT A300 which blew a donk in BAH had been borescoped 50ish hour prior to blowing up; it will be interesting to see when the last borescope of this engine took place.

Affected aircraft are the 747, DC-10 and A300 which, as we all know, are mainly being used as freighters.GE have no intention or plans for a permanent fix - it's not economically viable.

[SNS3Guppy]

Hardly...just as BRU and BOG are relevant with any reference to Kalitta.

Your insistence on being 100% wrong here is notable, and admirably, you continue in that vein.

Aside from the two events occurring within the same company, there is no relationship between the two, and neither occurred as the fault of the company.

Either your grasping at straws (this would appear the case), or you have no clue whence you speak. Which is the case?

[411A]

....fault of the company.


Company no, personnel within the company...certainly no doubt.
It is just as well that Kalitta is obtaining additional aircraft, as hulls seem to be destroyed with some regularity.:rolleyes:

[SNS3Guppy]

It is just as well that Kalitta is obtaining additional aircraft, as hulls seem to be destroyed with some regularity.

You continue to spout off stupidly, and 100% in error. Do you choose to say the same thing about every company which has had more than one loss?

The Brussels mishap occurred due to a poor pilot decision, following a bird ingestion. The pilot acted contrary to company policy, contrary to his own departure briefing, contrary to Boeing policy, and without coordination with the crew. He acted contrary to company training, and contrary to his own performance at each of his training events. One can hardly blame the company for the captain's decision to reject the takeoff well after V1, particularly when the captain didn't share his actions in real time with his own crew.

There is, of course, no connection between that event and the Bogota mishap. That event is at present, inconclusive, and the subject of ongoing investigation and litigation. It would appear that you're still grasping at straws on subjects with which you're not conversant.

These events, of course, have no bearing on the fines with Evergreen.

The acft at FRA was Southern Air, I believe, and these GE engines have an urgent AD, which is very serious business.
I was recently told by a senior FAA type that (some) Pratt models will be affected by a similar AD shortly.

Ah, you're attempting to draw a parallel between two different types of engines (and an unrelated company) by referencing an AD which doesn't exist. Further, you have no idea if the GE AD had any bearing on the event in question.

100% wrong for you, again. You are consistently in error.

You entered the thread to attack Kalitta, when Kalitta has nothing to do with the event in question.

You attempted attack the condition of airplanes which are not online with Kalitta...when your assessment of the airplanes is in error and you have no experience with them.

You attempted to draw a non sequitur parallel between GE engines and Pratt engines in complete absence of fact.

You attempted to draw a connection between the Kalitta hull losses, when there is none.

You clearly have an agenda, but are poorly informed, and probably stick to reliving your glory days in the L1011. It seems to be your forte.

[contractor25]

I understand that the CF6 is a rather "proven technology" (old) powerplant, but from where does this apparent big increase in failures originate from? The powerplants ought to be on their typical overhaul/rebuild cycles. Are the repair stations leaving things to be desired?

[shroom]

I believe they are suspecting metallurgical issues with a low-pressure turbine wheel. As far as I remember, there has been no actual AD issued about the engine as of yet, but it is recommended to borescope the engine at 20 (?) hour intervals. Or possibly at 20 cycle intervals. I can't remember which.

Midex also had an uncontained failure recently while climbing through about FL200 out of Bahrain.

[lomapaseo]

I would suggest that before one starts condeming Kalita and/or engine types that they do at least work with discoverable facts.

Since nobody has posted any pictures of this latest event or something other than second hand rumor that the inferences of blame are unwarranted.

And as for AD action and yet another failure.

The best the industry can do is to minimize failure conditions to an extent that it is extremely unlikely that other than average pilot skill will save an aircraft due to en engine failure.

[Iamnotapilot]

411 must have gotten the wrong number when he dialed 411.
As a side note Kalitta will put three of the -200F with JT9D-74RJ engines in service over the next 3 months and they are fully booked.

[411A]

411 must have gotten the wrong number when he dialed 411.


No 'wrong number' with regards to Kalitta, if you can connect the dots, anyone can see the problems that company has had in the past...and may well have now.
And, what's more, I observed first hand, some time ago.
With a few notable exceptions, I have never seen such a group of misfits all together in one location.
Just as one example, Kalitta’s abysmal efforts to maintain RB.211 engines (never mind the airplane to which they were attached), are legendary.

[shittykitty]

DELTA got rid of the 200's cause it takes supperior pilot skill and a 400 to push tugs around. pretty funny video if ya can find it

[DBate]

No comments on the reliability of the affected aircraft...

However, the takeoff must have been aborted right after setting takeoff thrust as the aircraft was standing only a couple of meters past the lineup position on RWY18 as we taxied in on that evening. Rescue services were all around. Today I saw the 742 parked at a remote stand in the southern part of the airport.

I am curious how long it will stay in FRA and if it will be repaired or rather written off. We will see...

[fesmokie]

SNS3Guppy,

Well put and I couldn't agree with you more!!!

411A... Panties in a knot or what???? Why such a harsh attitude towards Kalitta?

[Iamnotapilot]

Must then be a disconnected number. Other then the two unfortunate incidents-one pilot error the other yet to be determined.- , Kalitta's performance since its reformation in 2001 has been excellent. Kalitta is well respected in the industry by its commercial customers; by USPS for the high reliabilility it has maintained in delivering mail to our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan; and by DHL who are expanding their current business relationship with Kalitta at the expense of Polar/Atlas.

As to misfits-perhaps you were the last to leave

[Earl]

SB-10-20 (http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2010/100527b.html)
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: May 27, 2010
SB-10-20

FOUR RECENT UNCONTAINED ENGINE FAILURE EVENTS PROMPT NTSB TO ISSUE URGENT SAFETY RECOMMENDATIONS TO FAA

Washington, DC - The National Transportation Safety Board today issued two urgent safety recommendations to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). The first recommendation asks that the FAA require operators of aircraft equipped with a particular model engine to immediately perform blade borescope inspections (BSI) of the high pressure turbine rotor at specific intervals until the current turbine disk can be redesigned and replaced with one that can withstand the unbalance vibration forces from the high pressure rotor. The second recommendation asks the FAA to require the engine manufacturer to immediately redesign the disk. The NTSB issued an additional recommendation for a requirement that operators perform a second type of inspection and another recommendation related to the engine manufacturer regarding the installation of the replacement disk.

All four recommendations apply to the low pressure turbine (LPT) stage 3 (S3) rotor disk in the General Electric (GE) CF6-45/50 series turbofan engines that can fail unexpectedly when excited by high-pressure (HP) rotor unbalance.

An uncontained engine event occurs when an engine failure results in fragments of rotating engine parts penetrating and exiting through the engine case. Uncontained turbine engine disk failures within an aircraft engine present a direct hazard to an airplane and its passengers because high-energy disk fragments can penetrate the cabin or fuel tanks, damage flight control surfaces, or sever flammable fluid or hydraulic lines. Engine cases are not designed to contain failed turbine disks. Instead, the risk of uncontained disk failure is mitigated by designating disks as safety-critical parts, defined as the parts of an engine whose failure is likely to present a direct hazard to the aircraft.

In its safety recommendations to the FAA, the NTSB cited four foreign accidents, which the NTSB is either investigating or participating in an investigation led by another nation, in which the aircraft experienced an uncontained engine failure of its GE CF6-45/50 series engine.

The date, location, and circumstances of these four events (none had injuries or fatalities) are as follows:

On July 4, 2008, a Saudi Arabian Airlines (Saudia) Boeing 747-300 experienced an engine failure during initial climb after takeoff from Jeddah, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. This investigation has been delegated to the NTSB.

On March 26, 2009, an Arrow Cargo McDonnell Douglas DC-10F, about 30 minutes after takeoff from Manaus, Brazil, experienced loss of oil pressure in one engine. The pilots shut down the engine and diverted to Medellin, Columbia. This investigation has been delegated to the NTSB.

On December 17, 2009, a Jett8 Cargo Boeing 747-200F airplane was passing through 7,000 feet above ground level (agl) when the flight crewmembers heard a muffled explosion and immediately applied left rudder. With one engine losing oil pressure, the airplane returned to land at Changi, Singapore. The NTSB is participating in the investigation that is being led by the Air Accident Investigation Bureau of Singapore.

On April 10, 2010, an ACT Cargo Airbus A300B4 experienced an engine failure while accelerating for takeoff at Manama, Bahrain. The crew declared an emergency, rejected the takeoff, activated the fire suppression system, and evacuated the airplane. The NTSB is participating in the investigation that is being led by the Bahrain Ministry of Transportation - Civil Aviation.

The four recommendations to the FAA are as follows:

1. Immediately require operators of CF6-45/50-powered airplanes to perform high pressure turbine rotor blade borescope inspections every 15 flight cycles until the low pressure turbine stage 3 disk is replaced with a redesigned disk that can withstand the unbalance vibration forces from the high pressure rotor. (Urgent)
2. Require operators of CF6-45/50-powered airplanes to perform fluorescent penetrant inspections of CF6-45- 50- low pressure turbine stage 3 disks at every engine shop visit until the low pressure turbine stage 3 disk is replaced with a redesigned disk that can withstand the unbalance vibration forces from the high pressure rotor.
3. Immediately require General Electric Company to redesign the CF6-45/50 low pressure turbine stage 3 disk so that it will not fail when exposed to high pressure rotor unbalance forces. (Urgent)
4. Once General Electric Company has redesigned the CF6- 45/50 low pressure turbine (LPT) stage 3 disk in accordance with Safety Recommendation [3], require all operators of CF6-45/50-powered airplanes to install the newly designed LPT S3 at the next maintenance opportunity.

The safety recommendation letter to the Federal Aviation Administration with all four safety recommendations may be found here: http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2010/A-10-098- 101.pdf

# # #

NTSB Media Contact: Bridget Serchak
202-314-6100
[email protected]

[SNS3Guppy]

And, what's more, I observed first hand, some time ago.

Ah, there you go then. You've got little to offer here but ancient history and unfounded insinuation...and thus far everything you've stated has still been inaccurate.

Relive the glory on the L1011...at least you usually get some of that right.

[411A]

I have never seen such a group of misfits all together in one location.


The Brussels mishap occurred due to a poor pilot decision, following a bird ingestion. The pilot acted contrary to company policy, contrary to his own departure briefing, contrary to Boeing policy, and without coordination with the crew. He acted contrary to company training, and contrary to his own performance at each of his training events.

Looks to me that some of those misfits are still around...:rolleyes::eek:

[SNS3Guppy]

The stupidity rolls on. You continue to make unfounded statements with nothing to back them up but your prattling keyboard.

What evidence do you have that the captain who made the error in Brussels is still flying for Kalitta? He is not. You continue to be 100% wrong, don't you?,

Then again, whether that individual is present, you cannot establish any point which suggests that his mistake is to be repeated, either by himself, or any other pilot...and you certainly can't establish any causal link within the company training, culture, standard operating procedures, or policy which would have lead to his actions, or which would lead to them again.

If you're going to speak more unprofessionally than you have thus far, it may prove difficult. Blame one engine make and model for another, blame one company for another, and you rabbit on and on about that which you clearly don't know or understand, based on something you thought you knew long ago. Obviously you didn't understand it any more then than you think you do now, and quite clearly you don't understand now.

[Earl]

Is this thread about the Southern engine failure or some pissing contest about Kalitta and past operational problems?

[Beer_n_Tabs]

411A (does the 'A' stand for 'A'hole?).... Looks to me that some of those misfits are still around...:rolleyes:

You are a bit of a tit really arent you !

I don't work for that company in YIP...never have...but I would just like to finish by adding......

you are a mis-informed f*cking idiot.

** note to Mods...sorry for the bad language.....but 411A really is a total f*cking prick !
(disclaimer....this opinion is not the opinion of the management of pprune...just of Beer_n_Tabs....who at the point of writing this disclaimer still thinks that 411A is a bit of a tit)

Lots of love
Beer_n_Tabs

[etorsch]

411A. It sounds like the ranting of a bitter old man trying to hold on to the past. You have no current knowledge of the current Kalitta operational and/or maintenance status of the airline. Bad mouthing the airline will not bring it down to your current career status to make you feel better about your current career standings.

[SNS3Guppy]

Is this thread about the Southern engine failure or some pissing contest about Kalitta and past operational problems?

Standby. Too early to tell.

[411A]

Bad mouthing the airline will not bring it down ....

Of course not, however...one more smoking hole in the ground quite likely will.
Only a matter of time.
The clock is ticking....tick, tock.
What evidence do you have that the captain who made the error in Brussels is still flying for Kalitta? He is not.
Good to hear.
One then wonders....how did he get in the HR door in the first place?:rolleyes:

As regards GE CF6 engines, this places Southern Air in rather a bad position, as...all of their airplanes (so far as I know) are GE powered.
A couple more of these failures and it is quite likely the FAA will take very stern action.
Grounding is a distinct possibility.

[stilton]

411a seems a little confused but in a pattern that seems to repeat itself.


What's the word for it again, oh yes, here it is :



'Schizophrenia ( or ) is a mental disorder characterized by abnormalities in the perception or expression of reality. It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking with significant social or occupational dysfunction. ...'



It's not too late to get help !

[unwashed]

Missfit, Oh well I have been called worse. Next beer please!!!!!:} I have some tears to arrest from laughing at this thread.:p

[SNS3Guppy]

Is this thread about the Southern engine failure or some pissing contest about Kalitta and past operational problems?

Pissing contest, apparently.

One then wonders....how did he get in the HR door in the first place?

Clearly it occurred because you weren't there to prevent it. If only...

Accident investigators remarked that his was the most thorough and most professional briefing they had ever heard. They were impressed. Unfortunately, he failed to abide his briefing.

His rationale for rejecting the takeoff was that he didn't feel that the airplane was accelerating normally. The cause of the bang which initiated the evolution was a bird ingestion. Flight data recorder proved what was already a given, as did subsequent simulator demonstrations; the airplane was capable of flying, and should have been flown off. The reject took place beyond V1, and clearly should not have.

If only you had been there to hire or train the man, certainly things would have been different, wouldn't they?

Of course, you weren't there, were you? This is why you really don't know what it is that you're talking about. You were never there. Stick to your L1011 memories and leave truth and facts to others who really know, okay?

Then, when you're done hijacking the thread and putting your nose far beyond the limits of where it might reasonably belong, perhaps you can release the thread back to the proper topic. Do you think you can do that?

[411A]

If only you had been there to hire or train the man, certainly things would have been different...

Entirely possible.

[Earl]

411A that was a good comeback, had me laughing.
See you have not lost your sense of humor from the Saudia days.
Come on Guppy, you are up to bat now.
Will be tough to top this one!

[SNS3Guppy]

Entirely possible.

In your own case, as you live in the past, it might be...if you had ever been there. Seeing as you weren't, and therefore don't have a leg to stand on with your commentary...we'll leave it to you and Walter Mitty to engage in all the fantasy your little ancient heart could desire.

One suspects that in your mind anything is possible. Certainly that same logic applies to your absence of fact.

[411A]

......if you had ever been there.

Guppy, quite likely misinformed, as usual.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Flightmech]

Losing count of how many threads are becoming 411A vs the rest of the world, just like the BA777 at St. Kitts:ugh: At least there's a little humour mixed in with this one:)

[lomapaseo]

Losing count of how may threads are becoming 411A vs the rest of the world, just like the BA777 at St. Kitts:ugh: At least there's a little humour mixed in with this one

It's like politics, we need to see both sides before we know where the middle is :)

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

I suggest this "pissing" contest be moved to a more appropriate area, umm
like the nearest pub, where all things high and low can be discussed on quite equal terms. Then it can be a legitimate contest, as long as one doesnt decide to let one fly in the oncoming wind.:E

[atlast]

If 411A is buying a round then I'm there! His word is golden and his L1011 dispatch reliability is 100% :suspect:

[WhalePFE]

(411A) You do not know very much about anything do you? You must have been "canned" at some point the way you spout off about Kalitta. DAL is hiring FA's maybe you should apply and play on their board!

[LAZYB]

KALITTA AIR, LLC (http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=In%20FDCO%2020110103244.xml&docbase=CSLWAR3-2007-CURR), Plaintiff,
v.
UNITED AIR LINES, INC., Defendant.