SAA Captain fired for racist remark

[flyknight]

a Senior SAA Captain is in the process of being fired for making a racist remark to a ground support technician.:=

[suitcaseman]

What did he call him, a "whitey" or a "cracker"?

[oompilot]

If it was a deserved comment, was it racist? It could be a generalization, like say, generally speaking black people are fast runners or say for example, mostly black people fill the jails.
Sometimes facts are misinterpreted as racist when they are of a negative nature as would be in the second example above.
What where the circumstances?

[three eighty]

What where the circumstances?
Don't think it matters. We all know that comments are only classified as racist if they come from pale faces. Every other demographic can sprout forth as they please...

[Selfloader]

I assume this follows an intensive inquiry over several weeks where both sides of the story were evaluated and witnesses interviewed.

[Gyro Nut]

What is the latest with this case? Apparently he was found guilty, and is appealing the decision. They were going for a dismissal, as opposed to just demoting him for a period of time. He muist be taking real strain with his whole airline career about to go belly up.

Even if getting all worked up and frustrated, it's best to avoid the nasty "k" word. It's not worth it. Comments like this don't help in the SA we live in today. One needs to move on...

[126,7]

Did he actually use the k-word? If that is the case, then he clearly wasn't thinking, regardless of what the technician might have done or not done. In the world of today its very dangerous to say what one thinks. Everybody is learning how to be a diplomat, some take a little longer than others and some don't learn at all and get one free pass after the other.....
His career won't be lost completely. With his hours and experience he will get another job, but not the same money and he might have to move. Maybe thats a good thing, move somewhere where you have ground support staff who actually take their jobs seriously.

[Gyro Nut]

In his defence, it happened when the hot mike was on (by mistake), and in a moment of frustration he was referring to the ground engineer, who happened to be listening in unfortunately.

[oompilot]

Gyro Nut, there is truth in your first statement. The problem however is that you want people to move on but policies instated by government attach us to the past. It's not right to ask one group to move on yet another group use the past to their advantage.

[porra]

If he did use the K word then he deserves to lose his job and be made an example of! No place for neanderthals in this day and age and certainly not in any position of authority!

[Neptunus Rex]

Deplorable? Most likely, but hardly a hanging offence.

[jbayfan]

The said Captain, who is a really great guy, made a serious error in judgement and may have to live with the consequences of it for the rest of his life.

He had a hot mike and when they tried to contact the engineer to find out if the chocks were in so that they could release the park brake due to the A340 having notoriously high brake temperatures from a landing and taxi in, they received no response. The Captain then made an unacceptable general comment using the "K" word and the engineer happened to be on the headset when the comment was made.

It is interesting to note that the third pilot was Indian.

The lesson to be learned here is that many white South Africans still freely use the "K" word in general discussion and it is time to eliminate this word and this attitude from our social banter as it is offensive and degrading and is a poor representation of the individuals using it. Next time you hear someone using this word, have the balls to stand up to them and tell them that it is not on.

[Gyro Nut]

To me it's different if he used the K word to the guy's face, but it was done in "private", on the flight deck, and the guy over head it through the intercom via the hot mike. He also apologised immediately, but the guy wrote a report about it nevertheless.

Reminds me of living in a communistic country, where you can't use certain langauge against the party in power, for fear of losing your job or your life.

I agree totally though, that the K word is an ugly, outdated word. The irony though, and maybe if there are any from our black community on here can confirm this, but I've heard blacks sometimes call each other the K word.

[jbayfan]

The feedback is that because he used it in private and generalised the statement that the disciplinary hearing panel, chaired by a white female, thought this to be worse than if he had directed it at the individual.

[Siguarda al fine]

If the Captain used the K word to describe a black person behaving like a K, then fair play as far as I am concerned. Strange in the USA the N word can only be used by Blacks not whites yet Honkey, Cracker, Raghead, Yid, etc hardly cause a stir. Blacks apear to have Royal Game status on name calling and little else IMHO.

[Romeo E.T.]

didn't just this same event happen to a SAX captain a few years back at CapeTown...hot mike ooops...

and I believe the SAX captain got a temporary demotion to the right seat ??

grounds to speak to SAAPA/ALPA about this...precedence set

[scarrymike]

What the heck is the K word? Since I am coming to Africa soon can someone provide this word so that i know what it is?

I know about the N word. I also know its OK for americans of african decent to use the word amoust each other. This has always annoyed me. If blacks in the US don't want to hear it they should not be using it.

[ZimAir09]

If this guy looses his job over this, it will be ludicrous ! i mean what he said was in appropriate yes, but it was meant to be a private conversation firstly, secondly why didn't the the offended individual acknowledge the captain in the first instance? so he probably wasn't doing what he was meant to!wouldn't any body get a bit hot under the collar when their 'team mate' aint pulling their wait. and thirdly how could they fire this bloke when one of the most senior government officials in the ANC, yes lovely mista Malema has been running round the country singing roughly translated "kill the white man" and all that happened to him was a slap on the wrist not even an apology.
discipline is needed yes, but to destroy a lively hood over a very hazy and so too often bias one sided issue would be unfortunate... tia

[doubleu-anker]

Maybe, just maybe, it could have been the other way round and the technician was called "white trash". Could that happen and the Captain get fired?

[Siguarda al fine]

The "K" word is from the Arabic "Kafa" meaning a heathen or one who has no God and is therefore a Savage, wheras a beliver in God but not a Muslim is an Infidel. Afrikaaners spell the "K" word "Kaffir" but its pronunciation is more like "Koffer" and some use it in place of "African" I trust this enlightens you?

[Beta Light]

My family has been in Africa for almost 400 years. I feel offended when the ruling party cal me a settler. And when the President and the A.N.C. Youth Legue sing " Bring my machine gun" and "kill the settler , kill the boer. Winny stand on a public platform and say "one bullet one settler", why re they surprised when people still use the k word.

I have ben called a Mazungu, a Gweilo, a Farang and guess what, I can live with it.
does k and aboriginal not have the same meaning in the dictionary? does it not mean " indigenous person?

[MrBernoulli]

... how could they fire this bloke when one of the most senior government officials in the ANC, yes lovely mista Malema has been running round the country singing roughly translated "kill the white man"...Because this is the way of Africa today ... here ... now. Get used to it. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is going to change it. Look north to the Zimbawe of today, and you will see the South Africa of tomorrow. The ethos is already well entrenched in SA, it is just taking a while to really become obvious. But, it is coming, you can't stop it, so live with it or leave (if you can .....). Once the economy goes over the edge, due to mishandling, incompetence, corruption, nepotism, and all the other traits that are so well practised on the Dark continent, then you really will wonder what the hell happened.

scarrymike, if you are "coming to Africa soon" I trust that you are prepared for a bit of an education.

[126,7]

The feedback is that because he used it in private and generalised the statement that the disciplinary hearing panel, chaired by a white female, thought this to be worse than if he had directed it at the individual.

Huh? That doesn't make sense to me....Why is it worse if he used the insult in a "private" conversation?

On realising his faux pas, the captain apologised immediately (if this forum is to be believed) but this being the South Africa of today, it seems the Techy saw the opportunity to nail the dude and jumped at it with all the force he could muster. One down, a few million to go!

[scarrymike]

Education, I don't need no stinking education.... heck I know every thing about Africa cus I read every Wilbur Smith book he has written, plus King Solomen mines, West with the Night, Jock of the Bushveld...

Point taken - I'll keep an open mind and thanks for answering my question.

[ERASER]

The airline lost many staff since “democracy” arrived due the “k” word……latest was an (Indian) technician……best not to use that word at all.......

[18left]

The problem here is not the k word or n.....r,or h.....y word,its the reasoning behind deciding to use the word.

H....ey was developed by black people to counteract the n....r word,so it follows that it will be less dramatic been used by black to white,but unacceptable.

Now when a black calls a black by the n word,the reasoning is different from when a white calls a black n or k word,at least in most cases.

The Captain here had a wide choice of non-racial abusive words like "prick,as..le,id..ot,dimwit e.t.c,so his choice was well thought out,or so he thought.

Anyways if your co policy forbids it,then abide by it,but firing him,a bit dramatic in my own opinion,since it was not to his face.

Its a nightmare this hotmic thingy.

[Romeo E.T.]

from elsewhere on the net

A senior SAA captain is facing dismissal after using a racist remark while dealing with a ground technician.


The highly experienced pilot was sitting in the cockpit of the aircraft when he used the k-word over the interphone system with the ground, which, unbeknown to him, was live.

The ground technician, who was in communication with the flight deck, heard the remark.

SAA's head of corporate communications, Fani Zulu, confirmed yesterday that the incident had occurred in June and that a hearing had been held.

"The process is nearing completion and a decision will be taken in the next few days. Meanwhile, the pilot, who was grounded, was on full pay, which was stopped on Friday," said Zulu.

Captain John Harty, chairman of the SAA Pilots' Association (Saapa), said yesterday that although it did not condone racist remarks and that sanction was justified, it was felt that, under the circumstances, the recommendation of dismissal was too harsh.

"The captain had been flying for more than 16 hours and had had technical problems in Accra prior to departure," said Harty. "After arriving at OR Tambo Airport following a long night flight, the crew were waiting for a ground power unit to be attached to the aircraft before shutting down its power systems. Problems were experienced by ground engineers, which delayed the shutdown and offloading of passengers."

Harty said that, in his frustration, the captain, who has been with the airline for 23 years, made the remark. He immediately apologised to the engineer and later went to the management offices where he admitted the remark.

At the disciplinary hearing three weeks ago, he apologised to the technician and the men shook hands.

Nevertheless, the presiding officer recommended dismissal.

Harty said the technician was a member of the SA Transport and Applied Workers' Union, which had agreed to send a letter to SAAPA, as a joint appeal to management, against what was viewed as an overly harsh decision.

Harty said SAAPA would appeal to the CEO for clemency for the pilot. "We are also addressing numerous procedural irregularities which occurred concerning the hearing."

He added that, with over 800 pilots at SAA, this was the first incident of its kind in 16 years, which indicated that racism was not endemic in the airline.

[unstable load]

At the disciplinary hearing three weeks ago, he apologised to the technician and the men shook hands.

Nevertheless, the presiding officer recommended dismissal.

I wonder what demographic group he's from, then??:mad:

[jbayfan]

The presiding officer was white and was brought in from outside SAA.

[Gyro Nut]

A white lady. Almost all those that want him dismissed are women funny enough. None of them have taken the trouble to consider what might have led to this incident, and they don't understand the fatigue and frustration that can be experienced by long haul pilots when operating in Africa.

Since when do you get fired for calling someone less senior than you a name. Fine them, or demote them, but not fire them. A warning wasn't even issued to him which is contrary to the SAA Regulating Agreement.

The case of the airways captain that hit (wasn't really a hit, but more of a strong tap) the cabin attendant, and also taxied the A340 off the runway after being told by the FO to stop how many times, keeps her job.:bored:

[Juliet Sierra Papa]

This is terrible news, absolutely horrific that the Cptn got fired. He is surely protected by the same union as that which brought about the charge and is thus therefore surely afforded the right to Appeal.
As mentioned the "Julius's" of this world can spout off but that's another story. :*

[Tasslehoff]

Spot on ZimAir09...

[Plore]

"Education, I don't need no stinking education.... heck I know every thing about Africa cus I read every Wilbur Smith book he has written, plus King Solomen mines, West with the Night, Jock of the Bushveld..."

Good luck Scarrymike. If you don't know what "the k word" is you don't know Africa. Books can't educate you on Africa, especially not story books.

[HondaCRV]

"Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can't harm me". Let's bring the adults back to judge this case.

[unstable load]

jbayfan,
The presiding officer was white and was brought in from outside SAA.

Thank you!:ok:

[Selfloader]

Harty said in the story in the Sunday Times yesterday: "SAAPA would appeal to the CEO for clemency for the pilot. We are also addressing numerous procedural irregularities which occurred concerning the hearing."
This gives me hope that in fact he may have grounds for appeal. That, and the fact that SATAWU is backing the call for leniency.

[titaniumspoon]

Quote:
Because this is the way of Africa today ... here ... now. Get used to it. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is going to change it. Look north to the Zimbawe of today, and you will see the South Africa of tomorrow. The ethos is already well entrenched in SA, it is just taking a while to really become obvious. But, it is coming, you can't stop it, so live with it or leave (if you can .....). Once the economy goes over the edge, due to mishandling, incompetence, corruption, nepotism, and all the other traits that are so well practised on the Dark continent, then you really will wonder what the hell happened.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Well now, revenge is the most destructive of all the emotions, but sweet isn't it? We all know the adage "Revenge is a dish best served cold". Well guess what? They are going to serve it frozen! Watch this space......

[divinehover]

Isn't it a sad day when total incompetence is less of an offence than a bit of name calling. For the record, I'm a white male and you can call me any name you like. I just don't give a s***. Imagine all the Aussies getting fired for calling us Saffers (which coincidently rimes with K*****).

[cavortingcheetah]

Won't it be a sad day if SAA cockpit crews don't go on strike in support of their colleague?

[four engine jock]

To me it looks like payback time.
To fire someone for that is complete bullcrap.
Yes he should be reprimanded. But to that extreme.
I hope that the Pilots Union does something!!!

[eagleflier]

Ancient Geek, thanks for the education. There's no excuse or justification for apartheid though.

Enough of the thread hijack, me thinks its time to get back on topic.

[unstable load]

jbayfan, you should be disgusted in yourself!

titaniumspoon,
WHY, pray tell?
I asked a valid question that was truthfully answered, what is disgusting about that? Or is it possibly that you (like myself) were expecting to hear it was a black person, thus allowing more of the same old, same old ranting and raving that gets so soon tiring?

Personally, I am quite relieved it was a white person that presided, specifically so that there could be no yelling and shouting about colour bias:ugh:, now all we have to gripe about is that it was a woman and that is so last year, isn't it?.......:ouch:



coat, hat, door.......

[oompilot]

Current laws do nothing more then fuel hatred toward the black race. If the school geek goes to the headmaster and has name calling against him banned, will he become more popular or less?

[JG1]

I just wonder what it is with the West, the White West if you like, that drives them to treat blacks like a protected species, to the white's own detriment.

They pour aid into Africa, despite being burned time and time again by despots, dictators and corrupt black government officials.

The blacks chant is 'give me, give me, give me' and the whites give, give, give, only ever taking whilst bending over. In SA the Zuma government is corrupt from the top, in a feeding frenzy enriching themselves to the detriment of all in the land, protected species such as rhino and perlemoen included. Take, take, take.

Say anything against them and the blacks immediately pull the race or the apartheid card. And the whites are made to back off by other whites. Amazing.

I just want to point out that apartheid wasn't the Holocaust. We didn't gas and kill six million of them. We didn't do what the Spanish did to the Incas, wiping them out and stealing and melting down every last cultural treasure.
It wasn't Pol Pot, it wasn't Idi Amin, it wasn't Rwanda, it wasn't Taylor...
Sure there were some opressive laws, the blacks didn't have the vote, but then women in the UK didn't have the vote until 1867, Denmark in 1909... progression takes time. Sure there were demarcated areas in which they weren't allowed to live but they weren't being hunted down and killed. Sure they weren't allowed to marry whites but very few do today even though these laws have been repealed. It only lasted about 30 years - it wasn't the Hundred Years War. We didn't nuke them like the Americans did to the Japanese, we didn't carpet bomb them and we didn't bomb them with nerve gas. Sh1ttier things have happened to people.

Apartheid has been over now for 15 years, half the period it was active for. It is time to get over it. The blacks need to get over it and stop using it as an excuse for their own inefficiency and the western whites, who dont even live in Africa, need to wisen up and start unravelling the wool over their eyes.

The human race is collectively the important thing here, the irreplaceable animal species being destroyed, and the damage being done to the environment. It is wrong that the blacks are not allowed to be criticised when they have time and time again proven themselves absolutely worthy of such criticism.... time for fairness and equity on a global scale to prevail.

[Oldaircrew]

Nice post JG but you are farting against thunder. Common sense and rationality will never defeat ignorance and emotions.

[ZimAir09]

so true JG :ok:

[EchoKilo]

Firing the captain was a bit too harsh IMHO. As a black man having lived in both the US and SA, I think this racism crap is blown way out of proportion. So the captain made a mistake, but ridding him of a career to send a message to others is no way to punish him. Suspension without pay for a couple of months would be the most he should get. If you called your wife a b***h behind her back and she got wind of it, she won't divorce you. Rather she'll just deny you conjugal rights for a while and move on. I say the union should come in and look out for a comrade.

About using the race card, I personally have never done it but I think black people in most parts of the world have been accommodated quite well by our white brothers. Why can't we all just get along? After all, we all share the same passion in flying.

Have a colorless day now, won't you!:cool:

[unstable load]

oom & JG,
Both very good points, thank you.

[JetPark]

EchoKilo - OUTSTANDING post! You could not have said it better my brother!:ok:

[four engine jock]

EchoKilo- Now you are talking!!
We need more guys like you. Maybe we can all just get along. Life is way too short to hold grudges.
In the end we all bleed red!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jbayfan]

jbayfan, you should be disgusted in yourself!

Titaniumspoon, I don't get this comment. Please expand on your statement. The Captain is a friend of mine and I hold him in high regard. Someone asked the question, I gave the answer.

[Wagw370]

JG1,well said,about time everyone realised"the emporer isnt wearing any clothes".

Echokilo,I salute you for simply being a fellow human and aviator.

[titaniumspoon]

My apology requested, I read your post's wrong. (need reading specs)....:uhoh:

[titaniumspoon]

Ancient Geeks education???

Well now Eagleflier, would you care to give a thorough crit of all the points that JG1 pointed out in post# 44 ? Please try at least to be objective in world-weighting-wrongs and where you (and apparently the rest of the world too) feel Apartheid should be placed on an arbitrary scale of offensiveness? I.e. Stalin/Pol-Pot/Mao/Hitler/Aboriginals/American-Indians/Rwanda etc.......

:ugh::ugh::ugh:
Why do I keep hitting my head on the wall???????

[robert3791]

Echo kilo :very sensible answer .:D

[reptile]

Echo Kilo: You are a scholar and a gentleman.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[jbayfan]

The final outcome is that the Captain will not lose his job but has been given a final written warning. This is a sensible decision taking by the SAA CEO in conjunction with significant assistance and support to the pilot by SAAPA, the SAA pilot's union.

[Romeo E.T.]

sanity prevails.......and the next time we get irritated by the no-show of our ground services...(which happens all to often)......chill pill time

[kalahariferrari]

He should have received a Medal of Honour!:ugh:

[atispilot]

I have heard it from the mouths of our fellow blacks on many occasions. Although I also agree that it is an ugly word to use and a lot more of us use it on a daily basis then we'd probably like to admit. Pity about the captain in questions situation.

[four engine jock]

Iam glad that SAAPA and SAA pilot's union's backed him up.
Good to see the system worked.

[flyknight]

Well done to the union representing the complainant (SATAWU) and SAAPA representing the Captain for sanctioning SAA to have the dismissal set aside. :D

[saywhat]

Sanity prevails......I was worried for a short while.

[Mixed Sources]

Best outcome for both parties concerned. Hopefully a lesson has been learned.

[ERASER]

Although I feel glad that the pilot got “away” with this as dismissal seems a very harsh punishment for a word said in anger or frustration. The official company policy is dismissal therefore the company is not consistent in their disciplinary proceedings. I’m sure this opened the door for future incidence as a president was set by this case.A (Indian) technician was dismissed for the same offence in the same period……..

[kalahariferrari]

You seem to be contradicting yourself, are you really glad or do you also hide behind the policies? A man's livelihood was at stake here and a good man at that, at some point in time we are all guilty of such an offence, be it here or anywhere else in the world. Name calling had been around long before aviation came around!

P.S>The difference between us and him? He got ratted on!

[millertime]

kalahariferrari who ratted on him? Be careful before you answer. The victim lodged a complaint no more no less, any other stories floating around are rubbish.

[kalahariferrari]

My Dear Sir,

Whose side do you think i'm on? I was lead to believe that the captain in question actually apologised to the individual and the said individual accepted his apology, so then why the harsh attack on the captain? I will rephrase if it pleases the sir! The difference between him and us........he got Caught!:confused:

[ERASER]

Kalahariferrari, what I'm saying is that this pilot can be glad he got "away" with it as the policy of the company is dismissal for this offence. The fact that he got “away” opened the way for future offenders to insist on the same treatment, the company will have to be consistent or face the CCMA.Many good, hard working technicians and other staff had their livelihood taken away by being dismissed for the same mistake which I always found to be "harsh" and unforgiving.

[Gyro Nut]

The question is: Is instant dismissal the only punishment for a racial slur these days. What about getting a first warning. What's is one's right here as far as the labour court is concerned?

The correct disciplinary procedure wasn't followed in this case correctly, and HR took over the whole thing. It was in contravention of the SAA Regulating Agreement where the Fleet Captain would normally hand out the ruling over dismissal or not.

[groundfloor]

Well done to the CEO for showing: leadership, common sense and for getting a silver lining out of this storm in a tea cup....Now how about getting some more a/c, some more routes, some - no, LOTS more pilots and making some cash for a change!!!

[nugpot]

Now how about getting some more a/c, some more routes,

How about giving some routes to Mango and the pax to BA/Comair ...... :E

[Cable Tie]

I suppose, the said technician is not a good man, nor does he have a livelihood. Just a thought. I suppose technicians are just dispossable :ugh:

[unstable load]

I suppose technicians are just dispossable :ugh:

When put up alongside pilots, we mostly are considered more disposable. After all, we cost money in spares and all that, whereas pilots bring in money from revenue flights.:D

[Cardinal Puff]

Not to mention tripping over your fingers as you drag your knuckles along...:}