Concerning P2F

[clanger32]

Morning all,
Pay to fly. I think it's one of the few things that can fairly safely be relied upon on this forum to draw universal condemnation, albeit some feel rightly or wrongly that it's their only option.

As a guy who qualified 2 years ago but hasn't had a sniff I find it intensely annoying that any hope i had (past tense) was reliant on my ability to spend the rest of my lives savings on a TR and then be raped on some kind of earn as you fly scheme. For me, this would have meant endangering the well-being of my wife and baby daughter... Not something I was prepared to do.
So unsurprisingly, I have spent a fair bit of time analysing p2f and one thing has recently occurred. Why are the pilots representation on management teams across airlines throughout the western world not demanding that if TRs are to be paid by the candidate to alleviate company exposure, then ALL company related training should be paid for by the candidate. Force "pay to account" on the bean counters, or "pay to MBA" on the managers (Do you KNOW how much an MBA or an ACCA qual costs!)

If the company refuse to ratify this, surely this then becomes discrimination with the appropriate recourses available.... Just a thought, but I'd love to see the financial directors face when he realises there's a storm of P2beancount in his team coming...

[punk666]

Hi, dont take this the wrong way but surely this topic has been done to death now and could have been sent on another p2f thread instead of starting a new thread about how crap this scheme is.

The industry is a never ending pit of money so emotions and morals dont come into it.

"It's nothing personal, its just business"

[Uncle Wiggily]

Christ almighty! Why isn't there simply a forum/category called, "Pay to Fly"...it would clean up 80 percent of the junk written in every other forum/category?

[Prophead]

Unfortunately it is the fact that the guys who are no longer wannabes dont give a s*#t about P2F, that will lead to further decreases in T&C's across the whole proffession.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Nearly There]

How many airlines are running P2F schemes? the way its ranted about on here suggests everyone, but as far as I can tell, again from reading here, there is only a handful of operators doing this..

[TOFFAIR]

If you read the recent prognosed pilot demand worldwide, I think P2f days must soon be over. There is already a pilot shortage in some parts of the world, off course you should be already Type rated and possibly experienced to get there by now, but even then as people move there, elsewhere positions start to get available or upgrades become closer to others. So, in my opinion, soon regional barriers, like specific country licenses or imigration/emplyoment restrictions will ease and plenty of oportunities will show up for those who are flexible to relocate. On the other hand as shortage appears to get a threat trainingprocedures may change, in order to get more people trained in less time at lower cost, think of MPL e.g. .So those who sell their soul to get the job now and get themselves ripped off on the way to find themselves with nothing in the end are the solely responsibles for their own misery, I understand though there is a multitude of special cases, and Im aware how the industry took advantage of the market situation until now.

[Bealzebub]

Once upon a time.

Airlines would recruit their First officers based on a required level of minimum experience. That wouldn't be their only requirement, but it was usually the initial filter employed to start sorting out the application pile. Broadly speaking an airline recruiting on to jet equipment would require the requisite licence and instrument ratings together with a minimum of 1500-2500 hours to include at least 500 hours on jet or turpo prop equipment in excess of 15 Tonnes MTOW. The levels of remuneration offered were set to reflect the market rates required to entice this level of experience. The typical source of this recruitment was: The military; Improvers from airlines or operators further down the food chain; and those looking for a company change for their own career progresion.

There were a few airlines dabbling in their own versions of "Hamble" by offering a very limited degree of trainee or apprentice level inputs from approved and recognised training schools. The requirements for these schemes and the intense competition tended to set their own quality bars. The limited numbers also enabled these schemes to, by and large, integrate reasonably comfortably alongside the traditional input.

The change started to become radical when new entrant "lo-co" carriers wanted to reduce any and every input cost that the rules would allow. If they could have eliminated the right seat, they would have done it in a heartbeat. They couldn't, so they looked at methods of reducing the cost of filling it. By looking at these "cadet" schemes, they could see that all anybody really needed to do if they were prepared to accept no experience at all, was to get anybody with a requisite licence and rating to occupy this seat. In the UK (JAR) changes to the licensing system meant that you could (if you stripped out any requirement for experience,) recruit from an almost bottomless pool of 200 hour excited and anxious hopefulls. Not only that but these same hopefulls would be only too happy to pay for the training costs and assume all the risk themselves, when previously that had fallen to the employing company. Happy days!

The regulator shrugged their shoulders, since "experience" had been something the airlines had demanded, it wasn't a regulatory requirement for this type of flying. If the terms of reference for the job (experience) were stripped back to the bone, then why would anyone expect the remuneration rewards to reflect the previous terms and conditions? That was the whole point of the exercise. As other airlines saw their competition getting away with lower input costs, so they themselves had to adapt to survive. Those that haven't adopted these practices tend to be companies that operate in more regulated or restricted marketplaces (long haul, Heathrow,) where this type of competition isn't yet nipping at their heels.

So as long as the regulator doesn't care, and as long as there are no unfortunate public relations disasters, and since the seat must for now be filled, why not either reduce costs or better still, turn it into a profit centre?

Kidding yourself that applicants for these roles should be rewarded by terms and conditions commensurate with those that relected the higher experience base of yesteryear, is wholly unrealistic, and a complete denial of what is actually happening. Eventually, reality will swamp the dreams of the wishfull thinkers as the market T&C's become the established norm for this role. It is also quite possible that regulation forced on by public opinion or perception, will bring about regulatory changes that do in turn result in improved experience levels. (It is happening in the USA now.)

It is also broadly true that those who have stayed a few steps in front of this incoming tide are breathing a sigh of relief. However as events of recent years have proven that tide is coming in very fast, and is now starting to swirl dangerously around the ankles of those who previously felt unthreatened.

So all those many 200 hour wanabees bemoaning the lack of airline vacancies or the declining terms and conditions, should open their eyes and realise that historically their experience base would not (in all but but a tiny minority of cases) have got them anywhere near a jet airliners flight deck. The fact that it might do now, is either because they are from a school afflilated to an airlines low entrant cadet scheme, or because they are prepared to pay to occupy a role where the same level of experience is no longer demanded.

You can pay a company to let you drive around Brands Hatch in a Ferrari, but that won't turn you into Michael Schumacher, and it most certainly won't reward you like him.

[glider]

Bealzebub, so very very true!

Now, how to spread this knowledge to the public and students at flight schools?

[Piltdown Man]

I will have spent longer flying for a living than doing any other job. I've worked for banks, accountants, software companies and even cleaned streets for living. But no job has ever been better than this one. But I would ACTIVELY discourage any of my children from following a career in aviation. Now it is an idiot's game. Too many people chasing too few jobs and ever reducing T's & C's. This is partly because of the desperate wannabes on the bottom rung. You guys have made your own grave, crapping in everybody's nest along the way. Another reason this the rise of the likes of the Pikey and his mob. Fortunately I'll shortly be retiring on a good wack whilst those on the bottom will be forever fighting over the biggest :mad: in a drying up cesspool. Other reasons are feral management, :mad: security guards following rules set by the frightened :mad: in the DfT, rapacious airport management have all made it a system that my children would be better off avoiding. Having no proper selection scheme other then the ability to raise cash ensures that only wealthy fools can enter. Hopefully, the end the current system won't be smoking holes in the ground.

Until airlines select their employees as ab-initios it won't be a job worth doing. To make flying a worthwhile career, we'll have to reduce the numbers who enter until it is just less than the demand. Posts like this might help, but I doubt it. I'll just do my one holiday flight a year (unless I can drive, take the train or a boat) so as not to add to the demand for flying.

Hey, enjoy guys - but you would have better spent your money on plumbing, Gas Council and Part P courses. You would have been employed, have less debt, a stable life, proper rest, a nice little Tiger Moth in the hangar and been in real demand.

PM

[Bealzebub]

This is partly because of the desperate wannabes on the bottom rung. You guys have made your own grave, crapping in everybody's nest along the way. Another reason this the rise of the likes of the Pikey and his mob.

No, it is most definetaly not the fault of desperate wanabees. They didn't create this scenario. Nor are they responsible for the evolution of an industry that has resulted in this state of affairs. If anything (and it isn't really that simple,) it is more the fault of people like you and I that watched this whole developing scenario and tut tutted at the whole sorry mess that was panning out beneath us. We (and I use the term generically) comforted ourselves in the belief that our own future was wrapped in a shield of invincibility, that good fortune and timing had provided us. It came as a bit of a shock when the same architects of this new world order decided to bring their chainsaws up to the higher branches of the tree. There can't be many of us that have not had our pensions, salaries, allowances, and benefits adversely affected in some way. Likewise it is only legislative extensions to many of our working lives that have stopped us squealing like stuck pigs even louder than we have done.

The regulators did nothing, the insurers have not seen any reason to re-price the risk, and the government (driven by public perception) have had no cause to stimulate the regulators into any particular course of action. Those company CEO's who decided to exploit this long standing loophole for profit, did so because they could.

It is Saturday evening, and if I switch on the TV, I am sure there will no end of shows where the young, talented, hopeful and hopeless are dreaming for a chance at an express ride to their own particular utopia. They will be happy to be humiliated, exploited and generally used in pursuit of that elusive opportunity.

I don't think youth, impatience and naivity have ever been uncomfortable bedfellows. They weren't when I was 18 and they aren't now. If I was that age now, I don't think I would have much problem jumping through whatever hoops were necessary in pursuit of what I perceived I wanted. So blaming the wanabees of today for the exploitation or "opportunities" that we have allowed to become the standard, really isn't their fault.

[BigNumber]

Perhaps it might prove prudent to review the salary offered by the North Sea Helicopter operators prior to entering training.

The latest Bristow T's and C's make for highly interesting reading; more given an equal time roster, paid training ( or IR ), and ALL the trimmings.

Perhaps 'Rotary' is now the way ahead?

[Piltdown Man]

Ok Bealzebub, I understand what you have written and as you say, other parties are also partly to blame for our current predicament. But any person who spends in excess if £100,000 to train as a pilot now has to be barking mad and, I'd suggest desperate to get a job once they have their licence issued. But there are no jobs to speak of, yet the training system is still churning chumps out into a flat market. And yes, I have seen some erosion my T's & C's (eg. the appalling crew hotel in a certain location, (dis)affectionately known as the "Abyss"). And you are also right about those at the top not looking after those at the bottom. Some time ago snake oil salesmen in our company offered our CC some deals that were too good to be turned down (for senior guys only) and they got through, to the detriment of those less senior. But we only have a chance to start moving in the right direction only once supply of gullible newbies dries up - I can't see the market expanding fast enough to soak up the slack in the system, certainly in the short term.

PM

[southern25]

Im sorry to say that but anyone contemplating a career in aviation now must either be rich or too young.
Personally i have been reading this forum for a long time and i have been working hard (current job) in order to collect a respectable amount of money.The idea was to go to a reputable school (in my early 30s/would go modular though if i could when i was younger) and then, after instructing or flying GA for a few years, hopefully gain employment with an airline.
Personally i hate being in debt and i want my employer to respect me since i already worked hard in order to gain my qualifications (degree in current job).
I have been talking to many pilots and besides the ones who work for a major airline the rest of them are working for peanuts hoping some time to be employed by the major airline.
Being a pilot is expensive to become one and demanding in the process so having another job in the real world you expect that by being a pilot you are rewarded accordingly for your time and effort but this is not the case, at least in my country.
And when i say rewarded i mean you can have a decent way of life proportional to your overall effort.
And then you have all that P2F stuff which are degrading the aviation industry. I know how hard is money to find and i will not spend it this way no matter what. Thank God GA is fun and im enjoying it right now but how on earth in any western society people are willing to spend money in order to be lead to a quality of life thats way below their abilities and education?

[carbheatout]

I paid for a type rating. I paid for line training. Big deal?

When I signed up for a cpl/ir I had already resigned myself to the fact that I'd need to pay in order to get myself on the ladder.

Good luck to the airlines. As long as there are muppets like me out there desperate enough to fly heavy metal, they will continue to pull our pants down.

I'm now 4years down the path with 3k hours commercial jet time and hopefully the pick of jobs is shortly upon me.

I'm 40k in debt (reduced from 56k over time). Is it worth it? Probably not. The job becomes boring and you will not live a normal life socialising with your mates and family but I've made my bed and I'll sleep in it for now.

There is however the odd occasion where I get extreme satisfaction of flying a CDA in the London TMA and finish it off with a kiss on the tarmac. My family don't understand that though.

Go in with OPEN EYES.

[kingofkabul]

Inquiry opens after Wind Jet A319 landing accident (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/25/347813/inquiry-opens-after-wind-jet-a319-landing-accident.html)

Wind Jet are a carrier that use p2f muppets no? Looks like one unfortunate airbus had a bad day. Will be VERY interesting to see if there was a p2f passenger on board flying the thing!

[punk666]

P2f doesnt mean your not qualified at all to fly that aircraft!! You still have to pass the skills test with an TRE. If you jumped that and went straight into the jet then you may have a point.

All p2f has done is jumped the interview process, yes in affect it will not show if your mentally capable of handling the plane in a commercial environment but this is not always the case though. One of the things I have learnt flying the 737 in the sim compared to flying it on the line is that its a different environment and anything can happen.

How does someone paying for line training mean that they are a complete idiot at flying planes? Seriously, when that same person has done the same exams as you and every other newbie pilot out there! All that person has done is help drive the Tc's down thats it.

The p2f guys still have to be safety pilot released, they still need to be line checked (by the same training captains that would check a non p2f pilot) and they also need to learn the same company SOP's so anyone saying that there a safety risk really needs to do there homework about what actually goes on.

Its quick enough to judge these people but why dont you see it from the otherside of the fence. Do you honestly think these newbies want to pay a further £36k for a TR and line training? I dont think so!

The aviation industry is corrupt, its all about money thats it! No one cares about morals or right and wrong..look at MOL and his crazy ideas.