How should i spend my money?

[laakdown]

So this is my deal and would like some advice. Having worked for the last 3 years i managed to save 60k to invest in becoming a pilot as well as getting my PPL and am currently at OAA doing my ATPLs which i will finish here in March, having cost me about 10k (a waste compared to distance leanring i know but wouldnt have been able to work doing DL)
My intention was to do my CPL/ME/IR + MCC here at oxford with the hope i could get a job afterwards without paying ****loads more, but now that im here a) i doubt those jobs will be around by the end of 2011 and b) it seems that doing these rating in oxford will cost me 18-20k more than doing them at a local flying club. A few instructors here have said its good to do all your training in one place and oxford will put your cv forward to their 'contacts' but assuming for a moment that isnt bs it still doesnt seem worth the extra money.

So what should i do to make myself as employable as possible? Go the local flying club route then what? Try to do a type rating course with ryanair, easyjet or airasia? It seems if i invested the money in becoming a FI or even bought a small plane and flew it until i had 1000 hours PIC i cant see what companies would consider me and then id just be wishing i went the ryanair route
I guess im lucky i wont have lots of debt but still dont know what to do, any advice would be great TY

[206Fan]

laakdown,

This isn't what you want to hear but if you saved 60 Grand in 3 years id be sticking to whatever job your currently doing. Thats not bad going :D

[UAV689]

you spent 10K doing your groundschool!! are you mental!! I spent 1k on the course, and if you wanted to do it F/T at my provider they charge 2.5K,

cant believe you forked out 10k...

I would have taught you for 5k...!

[PhilTheFlyer]

laakdown,

How much have they quoted you to do the CPL/ME/IR+MCC ???

It should n't cost more than local flying schools, having been at OAA myself the modular guys paid a bit more but not the amount quoted ...

Whichever way you go, and I am morally against what I am going to write, but morailty does not pay the bills, look around at TRTO's that do schemes with 500 hours on type and fit everything else from your Budget around this...

Having been around in circles for the past two years making contacts if you have a TR with 500+ (or less maybe 150hrs) it does nt matter if you failed some exams or passed your IR with a 2nd partial pass or worse ... The Airlines will not look too hastily at your training but only the fact you will have Time on Type which is like GOLDDUST to them... some do care about your training like BA but the majority around the Globe could n't give a damn...............

Advice is an opinion mine is based on what I have seen!

Look at OAA now they're starting to offer schemes with Airlines but still making the Cadets (Integrated Course Only) pay £20-35K for a TR that costs £11K + base training....

Do the Maths yourself and say to those who advise you if your so sure your method is right then lend me the money and see how much they splutter!!

Oh and if they put your CV forward to the Airlines you'll be the first:ok:

[rodthesod]

laakdown

I'm sorry but I have to agree with Davy; I never had a pilot job in commercial aviation that allowed me to save £20k a year. Stick with your job and buy into the fun side of aviation - aeros, racing, gliding etc.

On the other hand maybe you live with mum and don't smoke, drink, womanise, drive fast cars and all those other things that cost me a fortune and got me into so much trouble.

[laakdown]

Davy 07: Yeh the money was good being a pro poker player but the life was completely unsustainable, and definetly could not do it for the next 30+ yrs, it was killer for my health, stress levels and lifestyle. It was just a means to do what i have really wanted to do.

UAV689: The ground school was 6k, + exams, accomodation and cost of living have made it 10k, i know its a lot but i wouldnt have saved the 60k doing DL so cant complain.

Philtheflyer: The waypoint at OAA is 30k, add in cost of living / arizona flights / rent etc its gonna come up to 35k+. I was told doing cpl/me/ir at my local school and living at home would prob end up costing me about 18k.

Do you know where i can look at these P2F schemes, i think ive heard of eaglejet but dont know any others? Also do you know what kind of jobs i could get with the 500 hours on type?

Ive never really been for P2F, id prefer to get a job based on my skills but if its the only option and i have the money its pretty hard to say no when ive come that far. Are these schemes a better option than paying ryanair or easyjet on their cadet scheme?

TY for replies

[UAV689]

do not touch P2F.

You are cutting your nose off to spite your face. When you get hours do you think these airlines are going to hire you when they can get another mug to pay to sit up front? or when your an experienced FO think about how you will feel if you cant get a job elsewhere because again they only take on P2F mugs.

Do not do it. You will have earned the right to get paid, that is what the blue book gives you. It is killing the industry people doing P2F.

Do doctors, train drivers, lawyers do it? NO! Would you do pay to fry down the local Macdonalds? NO! so dont pay to fly!!

I cannot hide my anger for P2F, I hate it and hate the concept.

[PhilTheFlyer]

Lanaak

I could n't recommend any P2F schemes but just surf the Internet or drive around Gatwick until you stumble over the TRTO's and go in and ask...

Its all a risk so be prepared...

What I can say about the Training at OAA is that you wont get better!

If you can afford OAA Modular and a TR as well then in your position that would n't be a bad idea... Dont bank on getting onto RyanAir or EasyJet but if you do then it'll cost between 27K-35K+living expenses.

Unfortunatley in the Airline Industry what I've found is fairness and your ability are lower down on the list than if you have a TR with hours... well at the moment anyway because the Market is so poor. OAA's idiology works in the good times and to be honest its the best place to train if money isn't the object... But right now its all a gamble you might be good at that if you play Poker:)

Concentrate on your groundschool and attempt to get the best grades you can then look at the Market and the Forecasts and decide at that time. If you are Modular then you can leave it a month before going to Goodyear but if you do continue with OAA then take some more advice... go and do about 50 Hours (At least 50% Solo) at Chandler,Glendale or Deer Valley to get used to the Flying Environment as it will help you with the CPL.. I've seen some go out there do a few hours with OAA and attempt the CPL and Fail...

Good Luck and stop confusing yourself!!:ugh:

[PhilTheFlyer]

Hi UAV,

I could n't agree with you more but unfortunatley too many people do it and jump the queue... After getting the hours they just go to an Agency and get a job anywhere on the Planet that'll take them, mainly Mid-East, Asia and those areas. Then come back with a few quid & 1500+ hours and join a UK Airline!! Seen it done several times... Leaving people who've done the right thing by thier training, now sat at home fretting...

Even the TRI's that are teaching them know it is wrong and that is from the horses mouth... but money talks... someone makes a profit and the Taxman says thankyou very much thats a good enterprising business you have got, with a pat on the back, keep up the good work...

Its simple it should be made illegal.. but how?? You find a way and I'll support you 100% I've seen petitions go to the Govt before the election but I have n't seen any action taken about all the costs associated with Training etc..

Phil

[hazholmes]

laakdown,

You say you will finish your ATPL's in March so assuming you finish all your training by the end of 2011 things could be quite different from what they are now.

I can't offer any advice regards OAA or other flight schools because I haven't even reached that stage myself. I would strongly urge against using companies like eagle jet, have you read about them on here??

You have plenty of cash and presumably are in no rush to get an airline job - its not a race after all - so see what the situation for newly qualified pilots is like at the end of 2011 before committing any further cash.

If you looked at these forums ~9 months ago you wouldn't have seen any advertisements for jobs whatsoever. Recently there have been cadet schemes opened at Thomas cook, Cityjet and a rumoured one at Aer Lingus. I see there is also a thread on Jet2 recruiting, flexi-crew cadets are being taken on at easyjet as well. There are also threads on apparent exodus of pilots from Ryanair and Flybe to pastures new. Maybe by 2011-12 hiring conditions will be more favourable to the employee rather than the employer?

Only the advice of a fellow wannabbe so take it for what it is. Good luck.

[laakdown]

I dont want to do P2F but if the alternative is to give up having spent so much already how can people be expected to turn it down if they have the money? Is it that dissimilar to say a doctor who has to self sponsor university for 7 years?

Im mostly playing devils advocate here so that more people will discuss and i can learn more about options so dont flame me too bad!

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

laakdown you're absolutely right to play devils advocate. Only by doing so can you properly explore all the options and get the true opinions from us folk qualified without a job.

P2F is very much the cancer of the industry but unfortunately its a viscious circle. People come out of training having invested so much and have had a decision to make.....(1) cut your losses and run. (2) go back to work, struggle to keep yourself current and bide your time (3) hand over yet more money on the (often empty) promise of some right seat time.

I in no way advocate P2F, it should be banned in my opinion and that would sort the debate out once and for all. However... it's a dog eat dog world at the moment and having invested so much and worked so hard who can blame anyone for trying to make the final push to the RHS. The difference is when you BORROW more money to go P2F...thats when you cross the fine line between determination and desperation/lunacy.

I've got no problem in saying that even in my mid-20's....I've done some growing up since training and stumbled upon the genuine realisation that although being a pilot is a nice job....its still just a job. And I'm never paying to go to work thanks.

Best of luck with whatever you decide. Just remember that the FTO with the shiniest brochure isn't always the best.....

Cheers

2W2R :ok:

[UAV689]

P2F is a cancer, and it is dangerous. God forbid one day there will be an accident, media will jump on the p2f and it will be banned. It should be illegal. There will be an accident because as soon as money is involved in pilot selection over ability guess what, incapable people will get through - simples.

Yes doctors self sponsor, just like we do to get the license. But do they pay the royal free hospital to work? No they don't. Anyone that does it is a mug with no self respect and more money than sense. If you have a spare 20k after training or whatever they charge get a house, or if you already have one of them get another. Infinitely more useful than p2f.

[MagicTiger]

Doctors actually get paid during their studies when they have practical training experience at hospitals. I know my sister gets £20.000 for 10 months work at one hospital, student doctor!

There has been enough devils advocates on this topic, you are not the first, you did not invent the wheel!
If you feel you have £35.000 + expenses to spend on line training, to be replaced by the next fool after you, place your bets.

They accept you P2F, then you done they will take the next.

500 hours will not get you far, there are guys with thousands of hours unemployed.

So you will to qualified for RYR etc., and not enough qualified for a proper job! Dont be lazy, do some flying, instead becoming an FMC programmer with your first job!

[laakdown]

Isnt every job, since the end of the BA fully sponsored scheme, pay to fly in one way or another? Whether it be giving ryainair / easyjet money for a type rating, accepting 24k a year from flybe if they cover your cost of line training or paying a bond that gets repaid over the next 5 years.
I see that people like eaglejet have taken it to a new level but arent they just an extreme of what the industry will practically be like for our whole lives?
Or are they actually companies that will pay you the same amount as ryainair will AND cover your cost of training that will reappear if were lucky? Who were they before the recession or are they all busto?

[MagicTiger]

laakdown - either you are a troll or an ignorant ****!

Either way, you should do some research first, before you try to be a smartaCe!

Paying up front £35.000 for TR and LT, and waiting around 12 - 18 months somewhere in the world, without a penny even for food or a place to live, that has NEVER been the norm.! And as said before, as soon as one signs on another bites the dust!

Even RYR does not go that low, you pay for your TR, but you do get paid to work!
Others bond you for a certain amount of years, and you must stay with them for this period!

Pay depends on your level of experience, fair enough - at least these airlines actually do pay you something!
BA fully sponsored scheme P2F, what are you on about? Are you one drugs or something!

They paid ALL your training, and you would work for them X amount of years, they paid you! But dont worry, this does not exist anymore!

Eaglejet will cost you much more than the £35.000 price tag, add all your expenses, and probably works out £70.000 + 12 - 18 months waiting to do some flying! ****!

[UAV689]

No every job is not p2f. Flybe your bonded but they pay you, Ryan you pay for tr, they they pay you when you fly. But yes easy now do p2f and at the end of it your out and the next rich mug is in. Absolutely retarded. I hate it.

:mad::mad::mad:

And if your considering p2f don't bother spending the OAA premium as if doesn't matter how good your training is as your willing to p2f. That just makes you doubley as stupid.

[Zippy Monster]

Flybe your bonded but they pay you, Ryan you pay for tr, they they pay you when you fly. But yes easy now do p2f and at the end of it your out and the next rich mug is in

easyJet's dabble in 'P2F', as everyone seems to insist on calling it, was short and finished nearly two years ago. Yes they did take people from the "Airline Training Partnership" thing, and no they don't any more.

Low-hours guys flying for easyJet, coming through CTC FlexiCrew or whatever the equivalent at OAA is, are on a similar sort of progression to those going to Ryanair - pay a chunk of cash towards the TR, and the get paid to fly as a contractor.

Your statement that "easy now do P2F" is wrong.

[UAV689]

Did they not offer out in the summer contracts for summer only after you hand over a bucket of cash?

If I am mistaken I stand to be corrected

[laakdown]

I wasnt saying im going with eaglejet i was just arguing that it is a more extreme form of taking a vastly reduced salary in exchange for free training.

Please dont reply magic tiger all ive asked for is some information and a small debate on the pros and cons of different ways to getting a job. Everyone else has done this without insults and obscenities, obviously you lack lack a certain level of class, everyone else ; thank you.

[MagicTiger]

laakdown - lack of class, no!!!
This topic has been discussed to death, but of course would require a little effort to use the Search button. Easier just to pay isn't it?

P2F - is probably the most hated topic on these forums, but there is always some numpty who believe they have found the pot of gold!

Why would anyone who make money on pilots paying to fly for them, suddenly change their way and offer you this position/job? That does not sound like good business, does it?

Or do you think they will give you a job because they like you, and you are a good guy!

Someone who considers this as one of his first options, lacks class!

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

laakdown - as I said in my previous post, I really do wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide. But as a bloke with a PPL and now doing ATPL's you must realise that P2F or anything of the sort is a very touchy subject. It's a cancer that needs cutting out of our industry. I absolutely understand why you're looking into it...but please leave it at that.

MagicTiger - When it comes to P2F etc I'm on your side....but lets not turn it into a spat.

Evening All :ok:

[laakdown]

Stop patronising me magictiger you sound like a :mad:. If you had actually taken the trouble to read the whole thread you would have seen that i was in no way advocating P2F as my first choice or anything of the kind.
I was actually asking whether it would be better to spend my money on a school with contacts, a flight instructor rating, buying a small plane or a type rating.
It was somebody else who suggest i do P2F if i want to get into the industry and all i did was ask about it and you jump on me as if im michael effin o leary

[MagicTiger]

Well next time use the search function a little first, and you will find most of the answers to your questions. This topic has been discussed to death in the past.

Not patronising you, just telling you to get a bit more knowledge so at least you know what you are speaking about.

You was the one who started comparing P2F with BA's cadet scheme, or FlyBe bonding you on low salary, etc. +++

You wanted to play devils advocate, as you wrote in another post, well here is your answer from most of the users on PPRUNE, P2F is the devil of flying, and can end up making FO's position becoming a training position instead of a paid job in the end, is that what you want?

Don't hide about trying to make a "debate", think before you make an opinion, and before you ask a question.

Furthermore you compared it with doctor students, again lack of knowledge, as my sister is studying to become a doctor, and she has 10 months practical job, as part of her study, and is paid £20.000 for that period.

So again you are talking without knowing even what your own point is.

Believe me after you have spent £40.000 if modular, or £80.000 if intergrated :ugh:, you will will only need to spend another £35.000 - £40.000 to get a TR and play pilot for 300 - 500 hours!

Sounds like a pretty bad investment if you ask me, and after 500 hours you will be dumped with TR to maintain every 12 months, because another one bites the dust. See the logic in how this works. They are not giving you a job with the Eagle jet line training.

Why do you want to do the lazy route? Build yourself up with air taxi, instructing etc., and when you have sufficient experience you will get a better job, and after more experience an even better job!

I have heard stories from some P2F captains, who tell their FO's, sit still and dont touch anything, sounds like fun, some of the countries who do this, don't have a very rich CRM culture as we would like to believe!

P2F, prepare to kill the FO's job long term! Maybe O'leary is right, Captain and an FO's out of job in the future, maybe they will give you job as cabin crew and trainee pilot, and only if your buzzer goes of and the captain is dead will you get the chance to fly the aircraft, in the mean time serve coffee!:ugh:

[salsaboy]

Please dont reply magic tiger

hear hear!

MagicTiger... ICAO English level what? Is it possible that your english teacher 'paid2teach'?!

Why don't you let sane people answer the original question for the poster?

:oh:

[humanperformer]

Stop patronising me magictiger you sound like a :mad:

Indeed he does - quality! :)

[gone till november]

MagicTiger

If you're an un-employed pilot then look at your posts and ask yourself again why are you un-employed. To the rest of us it's obvious.

If by some quirk of the space time continuum and you are employed then you're the kind of....what did laakdown call you....oh yeah :mad: that the rest of us hate flying with.

Loose the attitude as we all prostitute ourselves in some form or another unless you've been sponsored by an airline......and even then you're usually on a reduced salary for a few years to "pay for your training costs". I paid for my Frozen ATPL. Was i wrong for doing that, is it P2F?

Laakdown's comment about BA et al was spot on you just failed to see or understand it through the red mist.

Now i know you don't care what i say and may even try to treat me in the same way as Laakdown.......don't bother as im way ahead of you.

Ps Laakdown. Spend your money any way you want. It's your money. Some will support and some will criticise and it doesn't matter what myself or others say. You have to do what you think is right to get you the job.

I did an intergrated course, instructed then got a TP job then a jet job and have been lucky enough to NOT have to pay for a TR. It took seven years to get the TP job from getting my blue book and on more than one occasion considered the so called P2F.

The market is getting better but it's still tough and i wish all of you good luck....except magic tiger without a change of attitude. It's worth it when you get there and safe flying even you MT and may you all make the right decisions on getting there.

[MagicTiger]

What do I care how someone want to waist their money!

I didn't know now everybody had become pro P2F! Why not, let's spend £35.000 to fly as an FO, sounds like a great idea. Who needs to get paid for what they do! It is all just fun and games, sorry I didn't know that!

[dustyprops]

Anger management classes for you Magic Tiger. Wow, one hell of a rant!

[laakdown]

Think your 'waisting' your breath magic

[MagicTiger]

First misread the BA part, however that was never going to be majority of pilots recruitment way in the past, as there was huge competition to get in, similar as the air force.

Paying to get your rating seems to be the way forward anyway, unfortunate but true. Paying to fly, is not, look and search some of the threads of the people who have done it, and see what they experience was.

Anyway you are going to need a lot more than £60.000 if that is the way you want to go, you hour building, CPL, ME, MEIR + MCC will at least cost you close to £40.000 - £50.000 if you do it modular, forget integrated, that will be more.

I am not saying never to consider it if the situation permits, however you should try other ways first, if you do not succeed the self improvement way, get a type rating and try to get yourself a job in middle east or far east, I have heard this has worked for some, without paying for line training.

Of course depends on age etc., but you wanted advice, what you do if you blow £80.000 on training + line training, 500 hours will give you something, but probably not enough in todays market to even get a sniff of a job that will justify that kind of investment.

Line training is not just the TR + 300/500 hours you pay, the company does not pay anything for your expenses, you pay your own hotel, your own expenses while you are their slave, for however long they need you. I have heard pilots on these schemes not even being able to complete the 500 hours in 12 months, they can stretch it out as long as they need you, because you have paid them, and will you walk away from the investment you have made for line training.

I am not a massive fan of Ryan Air, but they do give newbies a chance, so even though you need to pay for your TR, you will most likely have a job for as many years as you need or want.

You have not received many responses from many experienced PPRUNES, because this topic has been discussed to death.

I do wish you and everyone else the best of luck in their pursuit of a flying career, regardless of how you do it. Someone mention here that P2F is an accident waiting to happen, can't really agree in that, they have to be highly motivated to risk that much money with no security of any return. And other low hour pilots have all been flying in the past and present for companies as BA, Lufthansa and Ryan Air, so it is not an unusual system to have love houred FO's, however paying for it is the taboo, and when things does change and pick up, you might be stuck in a P2F contract in Indonesia or Marocco, unable to get of this "contract" while others get hired.

It is a lottery!