Any REAL difference between ME CPL or SE CPL

[downwind24]

Hi

Im looking at starting the CPL/IR at Bonus aviation , Cranfield , within the next two months or so and wondered if there was any difference between doing a multi engine CPL or just the single engine CPL that Bonus offer as part of their package?

A friend tells me that there is no difference at all when applying to an airline it is just that i would not be able to teach ME CPL should i go on to instruct , is this the case?

Many Thanks In Advance

[kaptn]

in JAA ratings and licenses are separete. Thjis means that when you hold the SE CPL, and the ME ratings, it gives you automatically the CPL ME. This is what an Instructor told me. However, in FAA it is not the case, CPL SE and CPL ME are separate.

[philc1983]

You need a Multi Engine rating and a CPL to fly with most airlines since there are few these days that operate without 2 whirly things on their wings.

You can either do your CPL on a single then get your multi later on or do it all in one go. The choice is yours.

[downwind24]

Thanks guys , the course will be structured as single engine CPL , multi engine rating then multi engine IR . From what i understand from your posts it will be fine to do the SE CPL then multi rating then ME/IR and wont be of detriment to me applying for airline jobs?

[MagicTiger]

Most offer SE CPL and then 6.3 hours ME, so you then have a CPL + ME, which to be honest is not worth much, but much cheaper than having to do your CPL in a ME!

When you do your IR, that will be MEIR, that's what counts in larger amounts regarding getting a job afterwards.

[MIKECR]

You need to understand the difference between 'licence' and 'rating'. In JAA land, the CPL is a licence, to which ratings are attached. It makes absolutely no odds on whether you train for a CPL on either a SEP or MEP......the licence is what you will gain. At some point however, assuming you want to fly multi engine aircraft commercially, then your going to need to do the MEIR, which will also require you to do/or have already gained the MEP rating. So....you can either do the ME rating as part of the CPL.....or part of the MEIR course itself.....or you could just do it as a stand alone rating.

[MyIDisthis]

Exactly, there's no such thing as a single or multi engine CPL. In the end you will have a CPL + MEP class rating + IR/ME.

So when it comes to the CPL lessons take as many hours in a single as possible in order to save money ( unless you want to combine it with a MEP rating ). However, 5 hours has to be in a 'complex single'. If your school doesn't have a complex single engine aircraft ( retractable gear and variable pitch prop) then they will probably put you in a multi engine aircraft.

I believe that the skill test has to be in a 'complex single' as well, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[downwind24]

Guys , many thanks for your feedback , really appreciated :O

[Ultranomad]

If I am not mistaken - correct me if I'm wrong - it makes sense to start with IR and do CPL later, because this way you save 5 (?) hours of training. It's all in JAR-FCL1, please don't take my word for it and check.

[MagicTiger]

I believe it is opposite, if you already have CPL when you start your IR, you get reduced hours. Again need to be double checked, just saw price quote from Stapelford, and it is lower if you already have CPL.

[downwind24]

Guy's , IR first saves 10 hours on the CPL , but CPL first saves 5 hours on the IR. Cheaper to do the IR first but for personal reasons i want to do the CPL first.

[kaptn]

and what will be the case if you have an FAA IR?

[MagicTiger]

downwind24 - Not really cheaper to do IR first.

IR is normally done in ME, SE IR is not very usefull. So you save 5 hours, while CPL is normally in SE, saving 10 hours on the CPL in SE, will make it more or less the same, marginal saving doing the CPL first.

I think doing the CPL first is probably the better option, a more natural study progress.

[downwind24]

Hi MT , the school price is £1000 cheaper to do the IR first due to the 5 hour saving overall. As i say i need to do the CPL first but mostly as im full time to complete this year before the weather 'craps out' on me . IR is indeed ME :)

[HomerJay]

I have a MEIR and did my CPL skills test recently in a single engine. I passed but the examiner told me during the day I would have to do the CPL test again in a multi engine. I nearly bloody died. Myself/the school and people in here seem to believe he is incorrect and the MEIR can be transferred over onto the CPL license regardless of it being a SE CPL. Can anyone find anything in Jar Ops? I'm looking.

Ive had the license issued and they havent put the ratings on it. Need to ring in the morning

[olicana]

Hot off the press today. My flight school told me as i already have a cpl + multi then I reduce my ir by 10 hours and not 5. Result!

[downwind24]

HomerJay - Cant see that as majority of schools do the ME/IR first then SE/CPL so i would ring Gatwick (they will probably tell you to check Lasors!)

Olicana - Hmmmm this must be new as all the feedback i received said that it was a 5 hour reduction not 10/ I hope your right though as iv just started the ME/IR !!

[rmcb]

Olicana - I believe that CPL gives you a reduction of 5 hours on your IR. I could be wrong, but a quick 'as I understand it' email to the aquarium should cover you for later. Let the CAA make accountable errors - all you will get from the FTO is a moronic grin and the 'you should have checked for yourself' homily.

LASORS 2008, LAS E1.2, page 3 states:



Credits from IR(A) Training

Holders of a CPL(A) or ATPL(A) issued in
accordance with ICAO are eligible for a 5 hour
reduction in training in accordance with Appendix 1
to JAR-FCL 1.205. The same credit can be applied
to applicants who have completed a JAR CPL(A)
modular course of training and passed the CPL(A)
skill test (and have met all requirements for CPL(A)
licence issue prior to commencement of the IR(A)
modular course), ...

[rmcb]

downwind24 - I would urge you to consider the SEIR - just getting this eases the post ATPL theory exam. time constraint and is cheaper to maintain.

Unless you have a guaranteed job in the marketplace I would spend that saved by taking the SEIR route in maintaining your IR. Cross the MEIR hurdle as and when. I would venture not less than two years away for low hour CPL IR holders.

Good luck - Bonus are a good crowd.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I did my CPL with bonus, and broadly have been pretty impressed.

They, and several others, cautioned me that it's probably cheaper and certainly easier to do the CPL/SE then to add an MEP later if/when you need it. I took this advice, did the first, then realised that for what I want to do, I'll almost certainly never need an MEP, so for the time being, have ignored that particular option.

G

[portsharbourflyer]

A combined CPL/ME is cheaper than doing a SE CPL and MEP providing you pass first time in not too much over minimum hours. You are saving an examiners fee (although an MEP fee is only 150 or so, not a full CAA charge of 600+).

A combined CPL/ME course is infact 28 hours training, where as a SE CPL + an MEP will be a minimum of 25 + 7 hours (32 hours).

[BoeingDreamer]

"portsharbourflyer" - Excuse me but how can you get that CPL/ME is cheaper than SE CPL & MEP ?????
Just the hour costs for each CPL SE and CPL ME would be for SE £6500 and for MEP £9800. Both would need to pay their CAA fees, landing fees etc, so that would not be a difference on either, only the £150 extra for ME to add to the CPL SE.

Will defiantly not be cheaper to do your CPL in a ME!!

[HomerJay]

Rang today and they can put it on the CPL no problem. The examiner was obviously wrong, have to say it didnt help him saying that before we went and did the test.

For what its worth I had 10 hours off the course since I had an IR. If you get the CPL first then the IR is 50 hours as supposed to 55.

Might as well add, don't budget to do a 15 hour course on the CPL if you have the IR. You are exempt from the 10 hours instrument time but I'm sure instructors like to throw in some nav/upper air work/emergencies in this time. You might need more than 15 hours to be comfortable for the test. I did.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

The people I came across who did the IR first found it tough going back to CPL VFR after spending so much time looking inside on the IR. CPL then IR seems more logical to me.

I opted to do my CPL in a ME aircraft. Cost me more but I found the IR MUCH easier and very enjoyable as I had more capacity available to focus on the IR aspect rather than learning to fly the aircraft.

Whatever you choose I wish you all the best. Enjoy it! Flying everyday is much more fun than the endless job hunting that will follow shortly after!

Cheers

2W2R :ok:

[tecbar]

MEIR saving first maybe more than marginal if you do it in cheaper aircraft. I did mine in a Tecnam P2006T here in Poland. Superb aircraft, brand new(it was 2 month old at the time I did it in July) with Garmin suite and almost as cheap as a good single.

[downwind24]

Dont see the point in SE/IR if your wanting a commercial airline job you wont be eligible so went the ME/IR route , i also have no time constraint as i have about 34 months on my exams to go :}, i suppose its cost whichever way you look at it if you need it one day , second the Bonus quote , they certainly seem a good crowd.

[rmcb]

Downwind24 -

SEIR fulfills the requirement for the ATPL theory. That is half the point. You will sleep the sleep of the just knowing that is done and that you can maintain it.

The other half is to look at the market and judge whether or not you are likely as a low hour entrant to see a commercial job posting let alone an offer in the next two years minimum!

I still feel you are better off maintaining a SEIR until the market picks up.

I am trying to maintain a very expensive ME habit - should've taken up crack cocaine...

[downwind24]

Yeah , i have a friend who is determined that he will have a job before the THIRD renewal this July so i hear you with the cost. At least if the job/opportunity comes along you will be ready , that potentially could put you ahead of some with an SEP/IR. I always try to be positive :)

[BoeingDreamer]

First renewal is in the sim.
Also to maintain currency, book few sim sessions, around £100 an hour with IR instructor + this will get your currency tested regularly.

[rmcb]

Downwind24 - whichever way you go :ugh:, I wish you all the best!

[Aston240]

Hi all,

Following on with the SE/IR line.
What is the consensus from potential employers and pilots who have completed a SE/IR then done a MEP conversion.
Ive been told you have to redo the asymmetric work and approaches only lasting possibly an hour. Although its another test you would have already got the big initial test out the way in the single so the second time round wont be that much of a worry.
Do you think the costs could be significantly reduced if you did everything in a single and only when you see the right time complete the 6 hours and do a MEP conversion and 1 hour IR asymetric test?
Thoughts?

[BoeingDreamer]

Aston240 - Your SE/IR conversion to ME/IR would probably be a full IR test. I am not 100% sure, but I can't see how you would have a reduced test on the ME/IR. It would not just be adding a visual ME, to do the ME/IR you must already have a ME rating, you would probably have to do a full ME/IR skills test, not just assymetric flight.

You would have to do the departures, maybe you would avoid airways, but that would probably be the only bit, you would have general handling bit, assymetric tracking + hold and approach.
Not sure if you would save much money total, as the assymetric part is probably the hardest part of the IR test.

[rmcb]

Aston240 - you will have to do the full test, the regulation is as follows:
SE IR(A) to ME IR(A)*
a. 5 hours instrument time under instruction in ME
aeroplanes, which may include (b);
b. 3 hours in FNPT II or Flight Simulator if approved by
CAA;
c. Pass a ME IR(A) Skill Test with a UK CAA Staff
Flight Examiner.
* The holder of a SE IR(A) wishing to upgrade to ME IR(A)
shall either hold a multi-engine type/class rating, or have
at least completed an approved course of training for the
ME class rating.
LASORS 2008, LAS E1.2, page E3

For my money, I would rather have done this. I would keep my SEIR currency by flying an old jalopy with IR fit at £80 per hour and practice my arse off; when it comes to asymmetric stuff I would cross that hurdle as and when; the hardest part of the IR test is the instrument stuff - equally hard whether ME or SE.

When you have the MEIR you will, hopefully have a job that allows you to practice 'on the job' - ie doing it for real.

[Intrepidaviator]

Just to go back to the original question for a moment.

In my experience it would be better to do the CPL on a single first.

SE CPL 25hrs min
ME CPL 28hrs min

You have to do 6hrs training for the MEP (circuits, asymmetric, Vmca) within that 28hrs and i think it's an additional 4hrs after that to make 10hrs on a complex aircraft for the ME CPL.

Problem occurs when things don't go to plan e.g weather and you lose continuity. The MEP test is done as part of the CPL test so if you require some flight time to keep continuity your paying for the twin aircraft + an instructor to go with you because you've not got your MEP rating yet, in turn costs start adding up considerably and you still book it as P/UT.

With the SE CPL you do 15hrs in the single eg a PA28 then after that 10hrs in a complex single eg an Arrow in which you can self hire and book as P1. Additional benefits are less to do on your test although you have to do a PLF instead.

Take the MEP course straight after the CPL course separately and you've got both done with the same outcome.

I agree with a previous statement that the more twin hours you've got, the easier you will get on with the ME/IR. It would be better if you can gain the hours P1 self hire and without the pressure of having to pass a ME/CPL test at the same time.

This time of year you might struggle with continuity which is a big thing so try to help yourself out as much as you can and also try to keep your costs down.

Good luck :ok:

[felixflyer]

Doing a SE/IR is cheaper and I beleive you could start it earlier as you only need 50 hours PIC to start the IT but 70 for the ME rating. From my research you do also have a reduce test when you do the ME/IR if you have an SE/IR as there is no enroute section. The other benefit is that your 3 years deadline to do the IR will be met by the SE/IR but if you have just done the exams that won't be a concern.

The problem I see is that when you apply for jobs you will have to say you have an SE/IR. Even if you are fully intending to convert once the market picks up I fail to see how you can say you meet the requirements most airlines ask for and your CV may well end up going straight in the bin. There will be many applicants for each job with the ME/IR in the bag already.

As for doing the CPL & IR at the same school, there are airlines that like this as it shows continuity which helps the potential employer determine your ability to pass the type rating etc. I would say it will become less & less important though as the ability to pay for your TR and therefore take that risk on yourself seems to be the way forward.

I would also suggest that all this talk of what school is best should be taken with a big pinch of salt. Many people only have experience of one school. Also from my research you can go to the best school in the world but if you don't maintain that skill afterwards you will lose it. Someone that did the IR the cheapest route possible and then after the test flies with some experienced pilots, gains confidence and regularly flies themselves IR SE or ME will be a better IR pilot than someone that paid a fortune to go to the best school possible, but doesnt do any other instrument flying until the revalidation is due.

[VJW]

Hi

I use to work at the CAA issuing licences, and most of what is said on this thread is correct.

Not sure where some people are getting 6.3 or 7 hours for a MEP course from however.

Anyone want some more advice, feel free to PM me, and I'll give you my number and a good time to call (free of charge :ok: )

It's been two years since I was there, but still remember all that nonsense.

For the record after obtaining my JAR PPL I did a FAA IR on a single. I did this because it counted towards my 150 hour building (I thought those hours were more valuable then simply burning holes in the sky). It knocks off 10 hours of the 25 hour CPL course, and reduces the IR course to a minimum of 15 hours. The FAA IR is cheaper then the hours you saved on the conversions so in my opinion well worth doing- although don't expect to do the conversions in minimum hours. I did CPL is 19, and IR in 30.

All the best

VJW