School options at Moorabbin

[Cessna152Pilot]

Hello all,

I am new to the aviation scene and also this site so please forgive me if some of my questions if they are stupid.

I am wanting to gain my PPL and I'm not sure where to look.
I've have about $6000 to get me started and saving more and more.

I have googled some flyings schools at Moorabbin and seen there is a wide range of different aircraft and also there rates differ some what,
Why is this so? How can a school be so different to another that is offering the same aircraft ?

What are some of the good ones? What should I look for and steer clear of?
I like the look of Tristar aviation and there rates are very good?
Are they a good school that will get me what I need?

Thanks! ( once again I'm sorry of some questions are stupid and dumb)

[parkbrake]

Hi,
Firstly, yes this question has been asked many times before. But I will try to help you out as best I can. Im sure others will have there own opinions but Ill let you see it from my perspective.

First off, when choosing a school, try to go and visit them. That is the best place to start. Meet the instructors and staff, see the facilities and ask to see the aircraft you will be trained in. Some schools like MFS have brand new aircraft and you will be charged accordingly. Other schools have older aircraft and thus the price will be cheaper. eg Tristar. I must point out though that all schools should be following the same syllabus, so ultimately a PPL is a PPL, regardless of where you go. However, there are better instructors than others and sometimes its just luck of the draw who you get paired up to. Once you decide on a school, maybe it would be a good idea to ask on PPRUNE if anyone can reccommend a good instructor.

Tristar does have good rates, but I have not heard good things about their reputation. Also, check out their aircraft!!! Most of the staff there are friendly though, so again, go in and see them and ask what they can offer.
MFS are expensive. Nice shiny new aeroplanes but as I said, you pay for that. A reasonably friendly team there too.
MFT are middle of the road. They have a good team of instructors. Aircraft aren't terribly new. But that aside I have heard great things about them and their CFI.
RVAC, well, rvac is rvac!! Not had a great wrap over the past couple of years. Enough said there.
MAS I dont know enough about
OXFORD generally only do cadetships for Jetstar and the Swinburn Uni.

When asking about prices, you need to find out what the hourly rate will give you. Some questions to ask
Does the hourly rate include
- Landing fees
- Briefing Time
- are there any fuel surcharges

Also ask to find out what an average student will pay for a PPL. Most schools will give you a quote based on sitting a test after doing the minimum legal amount of training. You will find that a PPL can cost $18000 plus once you do things like buy a headset, pay for a medical, security check (ASIC), buy text books and equipment etc.

If I were doing it all again, I would go to MFT. I think others will agree with me on that. As I say,hopefully others in the forum will be able to give you an insight into schools at YMMB.

Best of luck :ok:

[Old Akro]

This thread will generate all sorts of opinions about favorable schools. However, I think the best school is the one that has the instructor that you get along with well and who has a style that you learn from best.

If you have airline ambitions, there may be some advantage in one of the bigger schools with an established brand, but other than that, I'd go and see some schools, see if you like the feel of the place, meet some instructors and see who you like. I think all the schools will welcome you and not think you are wasting their time.

In the olden days there used to be debates about the regional airports (I learned at the now built on Casey Airfield in Berwick) being better because you got more flying time (no transit time to the training area) and learned to land better on shorter grass / gravel strips. The Moorabbin strength on the other hand is that you learn better radio & traffic discipline. However, this debate (like the old airports) has largely gone.

There is also the perennial debate about high wing (typically Cessna 150) or low wing (typically Piper Warrior). Its likely that you will end up having a preference for high wing or low wing depending on your first aircraft, but once again I think its largely irrelevant. The important thing is to get going. Once you have a licence, I'd be trying to get a diversity of aircraft & airfield experience.

So, go and meet some instructors at schools and go with who you like best. If the school doesn't welcome you doing this, then cross them off the list. I'd do a couple of "trial introductory flights" while you are at it. Its one of the schools main marketing tools. Don't be bashful about asking. It lets you sit in the aeroplane and see the instructors style.

[Turban]

Hey guys :)

When do you think you'll start your training CessnaPilot ?

I'll be there myself, in december I think, to get a cpl 200hrs course.

And I'll do the same as you, after spending loads of time studying rates on the net, I'll just go there and see the men...
Sometime better spend 20 more bucks and feeling great, and sometime better save lots of bucks and feeling great too :E..so choose wisely :p

And in addition to what Old Arko said ,get your licence on the cheapest plane,then get some various aircrafts expériences :)

Best luck to you, and maybe I'll meat you there :)

[Cessna152Pilot]

Tristar appeals to me because of it Rates for the aircraft, but is cheaper really better?
Anyone here Train with them? or know any instructors? or hire there planes?
If you dont want to post feel free to PM me.

Thanks :ok:

[WannaBeBiggles]

I'll throw my hat in for Peter Binis Advanced Flight Training.

Not the newest aircraft on the field for sure, but good experienced instructors and they don't do international students, aircraft availability is fairly good too.

Price is also middle of the road, but they do not charge for briefings, which can make considerable difference in your final training cost!

[birddog254]

mate if your serious about training, and want to be employable after, DONT LEARN AT MOORABBIN!! Im not saying everyone that comes out are useless, but many many are utterly deplorable pilots thus the whole lot are put under the same banner.. i say go to a rural school, get your training cheaper and get some real hands on experience :)
Birddog

[Cessna152Pilot]

Great responses guys! Thanks!:ok:
Any other comments or opinions?

[Atlas Shrugged]

Yep. Try the search button :ok:

[Checkboard]

I learnt to fly at RVAC just over 20 years ago, and went on to be an instructor there. When I walked in the door, without a clue, I was pounced upon by an instructor (in those days instructors were only paid for flying time, and had to sign their own students - so new meat through the door was fair game.) I signed up, and that instructor became "my" instructor for the PPL.

While he was a nice guy, unbeknown to me he was a brand new grade 3 and with a fresh instructor ticket was competent, but not great. I may even have been his first student. As a consequence I took longer to solo than perhaps I would have, had I had a more experienced instructor. In fact my rough landings were eventually sorted by a grade 2 in one session, after several wasted sessions without progress. This cost me quite a few dollars.

So, unless things have changed, ALL of the schools are populated by new CPLs with new instructor tickets looking for hours more than (perhaps) being committed to being the best teacher. As such: it is just as important to be assigned a good instructor as it is to choose a good school.

Questions to ask:
Will I have one instructor throughout the course, or be assigned different instructors for each lesson?
Who will be my instructor? I would like to meet them. How long have they been instructing here?


Now note, while a brand new grade 3 is perhaps someone to avoid, so also is the oldest, world weary bloke in the corner. Experienced enough to know how to fix problems not in the manual, but young enough to still be keen on the job is your best bet. A new grade 2. (Choose an experienced grade 2, and they might move on before you've finished the course!)

Remember - you are the customer. Never be hesitant to request a different instructor if the one assigned isn't suitable!

Forget about "brand names". Everyone gets exactly the same licence. It is your subsequent work history which will be looked at and asked about in interviews.

[Phot]

Hey Cessna152pilot

I know everybody will recommend the school they trained at or fly out of now, and I'm probably no different.

I have just finished my ppl at MFS and found them to be totally professional and their aircraft are top notch. I've even heard that there are more coming. I'm not sure what some of the other schools are charging but about a year ago there was maybe $10-$20 dollars in it, which if you are watching your budget might be a lot, but I have to tell you flying a new aircraft with all the bells and whistles is worth every cent.

All the instructors very friendly and do really care about your training and not just building up their own hours on the way to big jets. This is, and I cant stress this enough, very very important. I started training with another school and the didn't give a toss which meant things took longer than they should.

As parkbrake said, go and visit them all and ask them the question why should you train with them. Then pick the one you feel most comfortable with. Remember you are the customer who is going to spent thousands of dollars with them!

Good luck and enjoy the journey.

Phot

[eocvictim]

Checkboard has it, Especially when you obviously intend on knocking it down fast. Not to belittle any of the Grade 3s but they will slow you down because of their own limitations.

As for aircraft, yes shinny new aircraft are nice but only if money is no object. You gain nothing from paying more to fly newer aircraft. When it comes to private flying I fly the cheapest aircraft I can get. Why waste money on crap inside when I want to be looking outside.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I know everybody will recommend the school they trained at

Yes! It would be hard to do better than Woodfall Aviation at Archerfield! :E

Dr :8

[Turban]

Why is that? Sorry couldn't find anything on the web..

Are you sure it's not another secret "anti-Forktailed acft organization" of yours ? :=

Just kiddin' :E

[MyNameIsIs]

You gain nothing from paying more to fly newer aircraft.

I'd disagree. What about reliability? Confidence in knowing that the equipment you are using hasn't been flogged for the past 20-30 years?

Plus jumping into something that doesn't look like shi+, doesn't have mouldy old carpet and headlining smell and thus is neatly presented makes you feel better and more comfortable.


My vote for Moorabbin = MFS.
I'd also suggest investigating your options at Tristar and Bini's.

Phot, yes more aircraft are on their way to MFS too.

birddog254, I'm not so certain that the "Moorabbin generalisation" you mention is legit. Know plenty of people who have moved on in recent times...


Some good suggestions so far.
Maybe, after talking to a few operators, when you narrow the possibilities down do a TIF at your top 2 or 3 choices and see how you feel. It probably worth spending the extra $200 or however much it is that a TIF costs these days!

[birddog254]

MyNameIsIs, I have flown with countless ymmb pilots whos knowledge of anything in front of the firewall is not only concerning, but dangerously scary. Being unable to point out an oil filter. Injectors. Fuel control unit. Telling me the throttle body was the electric gear pump?? . Also being scared to depart on a flight which is planned to return 45mins before EOD!!! I also know of several big time operators who turn pilots away solely on where they were trained. Does the term "sausage factory" mean anything too you?

As for flying new Glass panel planes ect, waste of money unless you have a job already lined up. All beginner jobs are in old bush planes, with the steam.
I also have a problem with your "reliability" comment,alot of the planes in GA are reliable, but alot are also not. All pilots should know how to deal with these, in training and in the real world.
My two Cents
Birddog

[Turban]

What about you then?
Where did you get trained, and witch school would you advise if different?

[MyNameIsIs]

I have flown with countless ymmb pilots whos knowledge of anything in front of the firewall is not only concerning, but dangerously scary.

May I ask why you flew with them if you felt the way you did?
Doesn't make much sense to me at the moment!


I also know of several big time operators who turn pilots away solely on where they were trained.
Interesting. The comment is a bit too general to make much sense. Do those pilots that were turned away have any experience, or had they worked for operators that didn't have a good reputation?? Many factors.

Being a Moorabbinite hasn't hurt my employment nor future potential. In fact several current and ex-MB people are still on my CV and get phone calls from operators interested in me.


"New" does not necessarily mean glass either. There are plenty of brand new aircraft out there with "old style" instrumentation.

Reliability? Well, I think the comment stands. I wouldn't want to be paying for a lesson or to hire an aircraft that is a bucket and quite likely to go U/S when I taxi out.
Learning how to deal with problems (whilst in training) should not be because you get the actual problems themselves on a frequent basis. For example the first time I learnt how to deal with a screwed vac pump and loss of instruments was not because it suddenly happened to me, but rather from good teaching and preparation. Then when I had one bust whilst hourbuilding it was a non-event.


Maybe the lack of knowledge that you reckon is so rampant is potentially because the regulator doesn't set the bar high enough? We all know the level of knowledge required to pass the exams is quite low in the grand scheme of things.
Maybe all students should be required to spend some time in a local hangar and pass some basic engineering type stuff before being handed a pilot's licence?


And for what it is worth, I've dealt with plenty of non-YMMB pilots who I thought should have been better than what they were.
Also flown with plenty YMMB and non-YMMB pilots who were all bloody good operators.
Sort of sounds like you've had a few bad experiences which are giving you a sour opinion.... ?

[eocvictim]

Reliability? Well, I think the comment stands. I wouldn't want to be paying for a lesson or to hire an aircraft that is a bucket and quite likely to go U/S when I taxi out.
Learning how to deal with problems (whilst in training) should not be because you get the actual problems themselves on a frequent basis. For example the first time I learnt how to deal with a screwed vac pump and loss of instruments was not because it suddenly happened to me, but rather from good teaching and preparation. Then when I had one bust whilst hourbuilding it was a non-event.

Remember by the same token, old doesn't mean unreliable or unsafe. They still need to pass the same 100hourly. So long as they're maintained, there isn't a problem.

As for MB Vs other, I agree the only reason I'd stay away is for cost again. I cant justify the landing fees or wait time on the ground.

[Turban]

Do you mean Bankstown? Seems to me that it has same amount of bad points than MB and maybe more...
And please tell us what's your point don't just say go for BK and leave it to that :)

[birddog254]

I do agree with many of your points there, i wish i knew how to quote things but im still new to this so bare with me.

When I was talking about reliability, i mean simple things, like being conscious that fuel can leak out over night, even siphoned (happens more than I thought!) just because it had enough fuel last night doesn't mean its got enough the next morning. I've witnessed this be neglected countless times, along with not testing for dirty fuel (even after drum refueling!!). Planes that DO need there plugs un-fouled during run-ups on occasion. Im not talking unsafe and dangerous planes. Its just these little things you learn with older aircraft, so when you are thrown in the deep end you dont completely s#it yourself when on runups you get the rough running!
In saying this, I am not generalizing all those learning at MMB, it only takes one junior pilot to call a plane U/S for no good reason, loose an operator a charter for him not to bother with that school / area anymore. because lets face it, they have all the choices in the world.

I STRONGLY believe all pilots should be able to complete all the items listed un schedule 8, we are LEGALY able to complete them so we should know how to do it!!
My Issues with these schools also include not letting student pilots land on grass and dirt strips! and not alowing marginal weather flying! all things which if not encountered under supervision are extremely dangerous once PIC with a load full of punters.

Also i have flown with some absolutley fantastic pilots that have come out of the "sausage factorys" which im generally having a dig at. But in my opinion the majority lack the experiance, knowledge and the ability to deal with high stress situations.

[Cessna152Pilot]

What about Oasis Flight Training?

[RogerRamjet01]

This whole YMMB-bashing is rubbish, to be honest.

There are a lot of student pilots who get their license at MB. Some of them will be great pilots, some will be crap. Anyone who thinks that certain schools or aerodromes have a monopoly on teaching good or bad future pilots is kidding themselves and, judging by the nonsense posted up here, others.

The basic learning framework is set by the school, of course. Some learning frameworks are better than others - it is true. However far more of the capability of the pilot that comes out depends on determination, hard work of the individual concerned and their relationship with their instructor.

I understand that there are concerns about the number of inexperienced instructors at the large city aerodromes. So to the original poster I would reiterate what many have already said: find yourself a good instructor (one that you get along with, who will give you time, inspire you to learn more), moreso than a 'good school', and then throw yourself into your training with passion and determination.

I learnt at moorabbin as well as some time at a small country flying school; I can think of several benefits the training at MB gave me particularly in the area of situational awareness and traffic lookout in the circuit.

[Old Akro]

The most important thing to do is start.

The single thing that will make it more appealing to go back each week for the next lesson is an instructor who has a teaching style that suits your learning style and who you enjoy flying with.

Please, please get off the forum and go and talk to schools at the airport that is easiest for you to get to. I soloed nearly before I had L plates to drive - 30 odd years ago. I chose Casey airfield at Berwick because it was cheaper than Moorabbin and took the train from Hawthorn for lessons. I ended up at Casey in a golden era by happenstance. Since then I've done various bits of training with over 10 schools in Australia and 2 overseas, but all the schools & instructors that I have admired over the years will welcome someone with a genuine interest turning up and asking questions.

Flying has always been a hobby, but one of the great adventures of my life. I've flown antique aircraft, aerobatic aircraft, homebuilts, twins, gliders, choppers. I have Aust, NZ & US licences and have flown privately in NZ, US & the UK. Through flying I've been places & met people that I could never have done otherwise.

Learning to fly for most of us is hard. As a student I'd work all of one weekend in a carwash to pay for an hour's training the following weekend. But its worth it. Come & join us.

[Cessna152Pilot]

So i took Old Akro (http://www.pprune.org/members/133764-old-akro)'s advice and went to the airport and looked around at the school's.

I have narrowed it down to MFS and MFT these two were super helpful and nice people.

MFS are new aircraft and are $280 odd hire, MFT have older aircraft but cheaper rate for Cessna 152 $269 and these guys were super nice! (not that MFS weren't).

What to do!!!!!!! :ugh:

New aircraft or basic cessna 152/172 for basic training?

[milad747sp]

Hey mate,
Firstly, Moorabbin is the best place for training cos you are exposed to the real environment rather than a clay strip in the middle of no where!!!

As far as I now, Tristar and RVAC are cheapest, RVAC got many Aircrafts while Tristar not so many. remember, biggest is not the best. although cheapest is not the best, but at least you can save huge money for your advanced training.
at the end, every things depend on you and your determination.
be ahead of your lessons and know what you gonna do in the next flight. the less hours you end up, the more money you save.
Generally, students of Tristar, ended up with less hours. this school is family business and the environment is pleasant.
I have no idea about MFT (they are pretty new school). MFS is luxury school with brand new fleet but I am sure you not gonna buy their aircrafts, you just need training, ultimately the training quality is same.
Peter BINI is famous with their Instrument training. at this stage it is not applicable to you.
Good Luck

[Old Akro]

I was avoiding opinions on schools. I know MFS very well and I admire the guys who own it and what they have done with it. The flight simulator they have is outstanding and their early adoption of advanced simulators is quite innovative. The school has a warm welcoming feel and they have done me a number of favours over the years, but I haven't hired any of its aircraft in a number of years. They would be an excellent choice, but they are unashamedly toward the expensive end.

MFS have new aircraft, many with glass cockpits. Personally, I'm not fussed about glass. The instrument scan is different and it takes some training. My aeroplane has old gauges and I have no desire to change. If you are airline bound, or have ambitions of buying a post 2005-ish aeroplane, then glass might be a good thing.

I don't know MFT at all. But if there was an instructor you liked, and they were cheaper and cost is a factor, then I'd give them serious consideration.

I haven't flown with Bini, but have spent hours in the building doing theory lectures They have a great reputation and are nice guys, but I didn't think initial training was their thing.

Tristar is the other school that regularly seems to get good comments but I know absolutely nothing about them.

I learned on Pipers, prefer them and own one. I did part of my navigation work in a C152 and was never keen on then until I did some aerobatics in one (aerobat version and after lots of Pitts experience). It wasn't until then that I realised what a good training aircraft it is. I like Piper better for a string of reasons, but I'd probably recommend a C152 for initial training.

I think that learning to fly is about learning to fly, not operating an aircraft. So, variety is good. As soon as you are flying confidently (probably about GFPT) I'd be voting for getting experience with other aircraft.

For initial training, you are going to learn to fly visually. Looking at the wing angle to the horizon and recognising the feel of the aroplane whenat different speeds are the building blocks. Therefore the only instruments you really need is the minimum list for the aircraft. Probably Airspeed, altimeter, turn & bank, radio & transponder. The rest is for ego ( and later on with Navigation work). New & shiny is nice and may give you a more confident feel walking up to it. But for the early work, a basic well maintained old aeroplane will suit you fine. If you are on a budget I'd be at this end of the spectrum. If you need to placate nervous parents, girlfriends, etc; then newer & shinier might have advantage.

Once you are ready to start nav. exercises, potentially you could re-evaluate the school and move to one that has more sexy stuff. Although my best navigation learning was from ferrying Pitts where the only navigation instrument was the magnetic compass and even that was questionable. My most recent nav was in a turbine aircraft with 2 of everything you can imagine. The autopilot was engaged as we entered cloud at about 8,000ft on climb for 26,000ft and disengaged on descent through 3,000 ft on approach vectors. Its a completely different buzz and it all needs to be learned, but its easier to learn to fly with eyeballs then learn instruments than vice versa.

[Jack Ranga]

Declaring an interest here, used to instruct at MFT.

The owners of MFT are very serious about the instructor standards. Grade Three's are monitored and mentored. The Grade Two's are of a high standard and like the One's are very experienced and come from a very wide experience base. (Airline, Charter, Instruction etc)

They have a great mix of aircraft, if you want steam, they have recent and older models with different cost bases. If you want glass, you pay for it (as it should be!) the owners of these aircraft deserve a decent return on them considering what they are put through. More Cessna's than Piper.

I've crosshired quite a few aircraft from MFS and have found them courteous and helpful. They pissed me off when a Seminole went US the day before I had it booked and no phone call to let me know that it wouldn't be available (live on the other side of town). They too have a great mix of aircraft but on the Piper side of things.

I learnt to fly in Bankstowns hey-day, when you found it difficult to find a park at the end of the day. You cetainly learnt circuit discipline, there were 10 or 12 of you at a time. If you flew wide or long you got a rocket from the controllers (as you should). Learning to fly at a bush aerodrome would have it's distinct advantages too though, GAAP/Bush Aerodrome? Choice really.

Time to make a decision bloke (that's what aviation is all about, decision making!)

Good luck with it.

[VH-XXX]

MFS are new aircraft and are $280 odd hire, MFT have older aircraft but cheaper rate for Cessna 152 $269 and these guys were super nice! (not that MFS weren't).

$11 an hour more and you'll go faster on your NAVs and won't need any conversion time later. As long as the MFS aircraft aren't harder to learn in due to the low wing vs high wing argument. MFS would seem to be better value in terms of aircraft hire, however choosing a school based on $11 difference in hire rate is not necessarily the best course of action as pointed out earlier.

[frangatang]

MB couldnt have been all bad having done my CPl at Schutts and IR with the man Bini himself. Ended up on a 4 engined thingy max wt 396 tonnes.

[aaronb]

I would start in the C152 then move to the C172, PA28

[Andy_RR]

I would start on a J3 or PA18 if I could. Much more fun and flying you'll never forget.

[RR RB211]

cessna152pilot

You get what you pay for mostly. Reliability can be an issue, especially in Melbourne where you may have been waiting for an appropriate day weather wise to do your solo Nav only to find out on a lovely CAVOK day that your aeroplane broke the night before and there are no others and so on.

However, this is just part and parcel of aviation and can and might happen at ANY flying school - they are machines after all. As I could only fly on weekends I booked and waited for 6 weeks (short time now in the scheme of things) to do my first PPL flying lesson as the weather was just pox.

Then we had a drought and I got the CPL done much faster due good enough VMC conditions. Probably too good really.

Anyway, as others have said, pay them all a visit, you can get a good feel from the people you talk to, you may even be able to talk to your future instructor. I had a trial instructional/introductory (whatever) flight and was hooked and she taught me all the way through to her leaving (due marriage and kids). Had a big influence on me, great instructional technique and knew her stuff. Then I got another senior grade one instructor and I learnt even more.

Some grade three's are awesome instructors, some are rubbish. As are some grade 2's and 1's and senior grade 1's.This is the case all the way through, even to airlines. Remember though, if you're not happy then speak up as it's your cash you are spending.

I went to Bini's from TIF, to solo to ppl, cpl, nvfr and mecir and they are very very good. I may have been lucky, but they were good for what I needed. They may or may not suit you but you need to see them all.

PM for further info regarding this decision of yours if you like. As others have said - just start, oh and DO NOT PAY UP FRONT. Pay as you go always worked well for me. Others here may have more to say on the paying up front issue.