Air France Pilots to refuse flying A320 Honeywell WX Radar?

[Birdy767]

UNPL-R'Way Air France Pilots Union ordered to not operate Honeywell WX radar A320 equipped.

Air France : des pilotes mettent en garde contre des radars météo - Transports Ile de France (http://www.leparisien.fr/transports/air-france-des-pilotes-mettent-en-garde-contre-des-radars-meteo-11-09-2010-1064170.php)

[Capot]

Not much to see here?

Quick precis....Union "guidance" not to fly with that equipment "if flight conditions are such that flight cannot be done safely"; 10 or so aircraft affected; meeting has taken place with management; announcement expected soon; union rep (pilot) doesn't know if anyone has actually refused to operate as advised.

[Timothy Claypole]

So what are they actually objecting to on the Honeywell set?

[Capot]

un «défaut de détection et (une) ergonomie problématique» auraient été signalés début juillet. «Le radar est, comme les sondes (mises en cause dans l'accident du Rio-Paris (http://www.leparisien.fr/flash-actualite-monde/un-airbus-d-air-france-avec-228-personnes-disparait-entre-rio-et-paris-peut-etre-foudroye-01-06-2009-533643.php)), un sujet sensible», peut-on lire dans le document. La compagnie australienne Qantas y est citée pour avoir changé ses radars météo après des turbulences qui avaient blessé sept passagers.Faulty detection and an ergonomic problem, known since July; sensitive subject like "waves??" (cited in the Rio-Paris accident); Qantas also cited, having changed its WX radar after 7 pax injured in turbulence".

[BrATCO]

sensitive subject like "waves??"
comme les sondes
Like (air speed) "sensors"

[BrATCO]

Very quick perso-translation.


One Air France's union recommands pilots refuse to fly on A320 equiped with the HW weather radar, unless they are sure flight conditions will be safe.

AFP (Agence France Presse) has got a copy of a report refered to in another French newspaper last saturday.
About 10 ACFT are concerned.
Faulty detection and bad ergonomy.
" This radar can be compared with the Pitot tubes involved in the Rio-Paris flight"
Report says Qantas has changed HW radars after 7 wounded due turbulence.

Management thinks the radar suits reglementations.
Management talked with union on wendnesday. Acording to what the union says, no recommendation from builders. Confirmed by company.

A pilot of the union says a solution will be anounced very soon. Doesn't know if recommandation not to fly was followed.

[tubby linton]

Do they have a particular model of the Honeywell radar in mind?

[BrATCO]

Not mentioned here. Can't find any suitable link.

[swh]

I would not call "UNPL-R'Way" the Air France pilot union, more like a very small group left wing pilots with communist ideals.

They are not the union representing Air France pilots, that would be Syndicat National des Pilotes de Ligne (SNPL).

[Birdy767]

lol, you are right

[cactusbusdrvr]

I wonder which radar they are talking about. On our new A321s and the future 320/319 deliveries we are getting the "enhanced aircraft" which have a new, more powerful radar that operates in an automatic mode that is far more accurate and sensitive than the original radars installed. Which is a good thing because we can't get the A321 above FL 330 very often so we are down in the weather a lot.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

I would not call "UNPL-R'Way" the Air France pilot union, more like a very small group left wing pilots with communist ideals.

They are not the union representing Air France pilots, that would be Syndicat National des Pilotes de Ligne (SNPL).

AFAIK .. nobody call "UNPL_RWay" union THE Air France pilots union :)
If you read the press it's called "one minority AF pilot union" ........
And I dunno what can be the relation between a radar functionality and communism ... please explain :)

[Teddy Robinson]

I snagged more aircraft due to the products of this manufacturer than I care to remember: typical TL entry being "wx radar failed to paint active CB cells clearly visible to the naked eye range X tilt angle Y through Z gain settings checked etc ..."

In fairness the engineers did everything that they could to resolve the problem once we moved beyond "tested on ground found satis" .. in the absence of any real cells all they could do was pan down to get a ground return.

The best conclusion that was collectively drawn was this was not perhaps the direct fault of the equipment, but a sensitive predisposition to water permeating any delamination of the radome structure ...

Same type, different radar setup .. rarely a problem.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Seem's the problem is not going down quietly ...

Google Vertaling (http://translate.google.be/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.liberation.fr%2Feconomie%2F0101 2289538-securite-air-france-secouee&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8)

Source:
Sécurité : Air France secouée - Libération (http://www.liberation.fr/economie/01012289538-securite-air-france-secouee)

[willfly380]

Hmm..interesting..what Radar was on the Ill fated 330?

[blackhand]

"tested on ground found satis" ..

Similar to a snag I came across during an Audit.

"When Auto pilot engaged, aircraft drops 200 foot in altitude"
Written off as "Ground check carried out, nil fault found":eek:

Cheers
BH

[elpilotofrances]

How do you know it is a left wing union?
You probably read it in the Mail ,
The snpl is the most important union in air france, but with the politict they made, snpl is loosing some of is influence with the direction.
In air france the only way you have to make thinks change is to put big pressure, if not all managent explain you: too expensive, not relevant and so on.

by the way, sorry for my english, not my mother tongue!

[Tee Emm]

The best conclusion that was collectively drawn was this was not perhaps the direct fault of the equipment, but a sensitive predisposition to water permeating any delamination of the radome structure ...
I wouldn't be surprised at that theory. Many years ago, a 737-200 I flew on South Pacific routes had on-going problems not picking up active CB outside 30 miles or so and even had trouble picking up large islands until within 50 miles. The techs in Hong Kong were unable to fault the radar Bendix RDR-1E.

During cruise at 35,000 in visual flight we bypassed a large storm easily but it did not appear on the radar screen. I took a photo of the CB and of the radar at same time and sent it to Bendix Co. in USA and asked for an opinion. They replied that very probably water was getting inside the radome and freezing at high altitudes but would unfreeze on descent into lower levels - around 12-15,000 in the Pacific.

Icing on the inside of the radome caused significant attenuation and thus reduced the effective range. In the warmer levels the ice melted and the radar would come good again with no fault found on the ground by the techs. The Bendix suggestion was that techs should check the seals and to bake the radome in a special oven until all the moisture was evaporated. After that, a check should be made for tiny holes in the radome that would let water in and the various seals around the radome.

That was done and the radar was perfect after that.

[p51guy]

Had that happen in an MD80 in the 90's. Going from DFW to east coast saw weather ahead and couldn't see it on the radar. When we entered the clouds we got heavy precip. so adviced center that our radar wasn't showing what we were encountering and if they could suggest a heading. They said well, since you are in the middle of it now it doesn't matter. We got the radar back as we descended below 10,000 and checked the nose cone after landing and found It heavily pitted from previous damage. We wrote up what we found and they replaced the nose cone. Attenuation from ice forming was the problem.

[Machinbird]

I don't know anything about the characteristics of the radar in question, but a lot of high voltage avionics equipment detest being depressurized. It is very easy to create an ionized plasma at low pressure akin to the inside of a florescent tube. If that happened in a wave guide, you aren't going to get any sort of a signal through it.
Starting point questions: Are the radomes pressurized? Are the waveguides pressurized?
Had an interesting flight in a Scooter (A-4E) a quite few years back for just this reason.