Advice Please

[996]

Didn't get paid last month and found out via the grapevine that the pay day has been changed to the 6th of the month 1 week later than usual. Wasn't told about this and have not gotten any explanation. Well guess what, no pay today either. Am I daft for continuing to work? I think this is a sign that the company is going broke and wondering if I should be looking elsewhere pretty damn soon. I just dont feel confident I'll get my pay.

:mad:

Located in the UK

[Whirlygig]

If you're an employee (as opposed to freelancer/self-employed), the date on which you get paid (along with other terms) is stipulated in your employment contract and an employer cannot change your pay day without notice and consultation period.

And yes, it is a major sign that they are "in financial difficulties". If the employer does go into liquidation, there is a strict order in which creditors get paid. The first to be paid is ... you've guessed it ... the liquidator. Next are employees up to £800 each, then the Government and creditors who hold charges over assets, then the ordinary trade creditors.

Don't allow your exposure to salary to be more than £800 'cos the chances are you won't get it.

However, the business could go into administration where a professional insolvency practitioner goes in to try and rescue the company. This usually works by a new phoenix company being set up and continuing to trade whilst the debts of the old company are frozen until the new company has made enough in order to pay off the debts.

It would be up to you whether you have the faith to continue in order to help the business recover or whether to jump ship now.

Personally though, I think an explanation would be in order. If your payday has purely be altered for convenience, then your employer has a legal requirement to give you notice. If it's because they haven't got the money to pay you ....

Some managers have the philosophy that you tell your staff nothing as ignorance is bliss and they need the staff to continue the business. Others would be honest and ask for loyalty and support. I'd guess yours fall into the former category but both are risky strategies.

But it may well be worth putting feelers out for another job.

Cheers

Whirls

[996]

Whirls, thanks for that I'd like to be more forgiving to my employer and plod on but we [theres more than me in this boat] and to be honest I cant afford to. We have asked for an explanation but nobody is saying anything. Even the engineers have empty pockets. It doesnt look good. I work in Norwich. Perhaps I should move on. [Where you trained, we met once a long time ago]. Thanks

[helimutt]

As a freelance instructor, this happened to me on more than one occasion and was always because the company was in financial difficulty. You think by helping out and waiting, that things will improve, but believe me, it's time to move on. It's usually the start of a downward spiral. Some managers can't manage for crap, and treat their staff with contempt.
I'd refuse to work any further until i'd been paid for the work already done. Also, if you signed a contract which states the day you will be paid etc, they have breached your terms and conditions of employment. I'm betting you didnt sign any sort of contract???

The helicopter industry has to be filled with more chancers than could be believed. Don't for one minute feel any loyalty towards an employer these days. You're just a bum on a seat to them.
Sterling Helicopters at Norwich by any chance????

[bladegrabber]

Whirls is an expert in these matters and has given sound advice...dont wait too long and look out for jobs with the larger operators who are all setting up shop at Norwich

BG

[996]

helimutt - thanks for the advice, I agree with pretty much you say. After what whrils said I checked up on the matter in more detail and of course you are both right. Trouble is, I am not sure if it is worth the effort to try and get whats owed to me already. 2 blokes have already gone somewhere else.

Ivor - thanks for the advice and I am sure its the sensible thing to do but trust me on this, the 'boss' / bosses are completely un contactable. In fact I don't think anyone has ever seen them let alone talk to them. I havent. Everyone else in the company with any position is helpless and cannot do a thing except try to perpetuate a load of garbage because they don't know what is going on. Or if they do they are too scared to say.

Somebody PM me and said to look at the replies but some seem to have been removed. Anyone there care to tell me what the gist of it was please?

[Senior Pilot]

996

You asked for and have been given (excellent) advice.
Do not encourage people to repost material removed by the Mods.

[loopyloony]

Not paying staff when they have worked as required is an insult to everyone and any company that fails to pay their workforce deserve whatever flak comes their way.

Why should company directors etc sleep comfortably in their beds at night when their employees are unable to sleep because their mortagage has not been paid and they cannot afford to feed their kids.

It does not help when employees are given no notice change of pay day and then fail to pay on that day either.

At least on benefits the kids get free school meals but as an employed pilot if you went to the DSS and applied for benefits you would be put in a straight jacket.

Maybe if you go on working for the company you deserve the straight jacket!

Good mental health

[cladosporangium]

What would be the repercussions of you not flying if they do not pay you?

It would be of benefit if you flew Police or Air Ambulance because then pressure might be put on the company by the people that "pay" good money for the service.

[996]

Thank you everyone for your input. I have noted all that you comment on. Sadly I have had enough and decided to seek alternatives, bills to pay etc and as luck would have it I am not that badly off that I cannot afford a little time off [no holiday yet - for a long time!!] So perhaps I gain a bit:cool: One thing for sure is that I will forever steer clear of anything to do with this group. I sincerely advise others do the same. YMMV

Cheers

[TOTM2U]

Sorry 996, but that is the worst attempt at sounding naive I have come across. It may be PPRUNE but please give us some credit :rolleyes:


TOTM2U

[cladosporangium]

We all know that the industry is not in the best of health especially in the airline world. Pilots are being taken on for short contracts and then let go over the winter. Experience is going to be lost as we do not seem to "value" pilots and the committment they have made to the industry by in most cases paying for training.

My concern comes as a result of one company apparently now not paying their pilots. If a pilot is only going to receive £800 from the receivers everyone knows that the average pilot earns much more than that per month and that the average pilot mortagage is more than £800 per month!

Many helicopter pilots that work for the smaller companies are not covered by a union so when their employer breaches their contract what do they do? Whatever happened to Flight Safety? If a pilot is concerned about his financial problems especially when they may have been brought about by their employer, is his full concentration on the job? What is the cost of an air accident? A car crash due to a momentary lapse in concentration can be devasting enough but a helicopter crash has the potential to be far worse and costly.

Pilots having time off due to stress caused by financial worries is also costly to companies. So come on employers just pay everyone what is owed when the payments are due and everyone will be happy. More importantly the world will be a safer place.

[Rotorswish]

Flight safety is higly important and with worries like whether they are going to be paid or not is crucial. Again the same applies for the engineers, did somebody mention Norwich!! Again nobody likes being out of pocket and nobody likes not having the answers. :uhoh:

[SASless]

If he boss missed a pay check without coming to you first and explaining the situation....clean out yer desk and find another job!

If the boss fellah is on the up and up...he will be very open with the hired help as he needs them to stay in business....if he intends to stay in business.

Flying for free never works out!

The business (trade...demand...flights) will go to some one if not the current firm....be with them when they do and not the old place where they leave.

[whodictus]

Rotorswish
You are so right. Would I fly in an aircraft where the engineers and it doesn't matter how good they are do not have their minds 100% on the job I think not:bored:. I would recomend a visit to Occy Health and HR for a chat

[cladosporangium]

****Deleted****


The thread was a request for advice from 996: it is NOT a thread to speculate about who or what is 996's ex-employer, unless 996 chooses to make it known.

Senior Pilot

[Tarman]

For your employer not to pay you once is shocking. For you to allow it to happen twice is stupidity. Why you haven't kicked his door down or "blocked in" his car/helicopter is beyond belief !
Don't ASK what is going on .. . . . DEMAND to know when you are being paid and if they are being unhelpful then go to a Citizens Advice Bureau pronto.
In the meantime carry out no further work and get looking for another job . . . . . .fast.

Tarman

[Whirlygig]

Why you haven't kicked his door down or "blocked in" his car/helicopter is beyond belief !Presumably because those who hold the purse strings and make the decisions are not based at the establishment concerned.

Cheers

Whirls

[loopyloony]

You cannot always have control over who is supposed to pay the wages. Profitable companies are often taken over by "umbrella" companies which are often asset strippers. For years you could have been working for a really good regional company and then all of a sudden you find yourself, through no fault of your own "dancing with the devil/s".

At this point you have a wife, kids, mortgage and credit cards so you have no choice but to just stick with it and hope. Previously the "devils" have paid their employees so you just go to work and do your best and hope that life continues. Companies suddenly want paying "upfront" for services that you used to get on credit but you still plod on because the arm of the umbrella company you work for is essential and profitable.

At this moment you presume that you are working for no pay in the hope that all will get better. I sincerely hope that you are right for everyone concerned.

If the company are not paying wages then where did all the money go from mortgaging assets???

Come on 996 if only you can identify the company go for it before the news reports that the receivers have been called in.

Good mental health (you are gonna need it)

[loopyloony]

I am very new to the site, having never had concerns before that meant I felt the need to vent my spleen. My first attempt was pulled and it seems that feelings are running high as I have noted someone else has been "deleted".

I am now a little more knowledgeable about what is acceptable or not but I am sure I still have a lot to learn.

THE PEOPLE THAT ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS DEBACLE ARE STILL OUT THERE DESTROYING PEOPLES' LIVES. THEY HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE AND WILL DO IT AGAIN AS THE LAW ALLOWS THEM TO SET UP ANOTHER COMPANY JUST LIKE THE PHOENIX FROM THE ASHES.

[996]

cladosporangium - I do not think it is a good idea for me to name the offenders here. its not the right time for that and besides, there are plenty of service providers in the industry know precisely who it is because they havent been paid for a long time as well. If you PM however, that is a different matter.

cattletruck - I do know where the money is coming from but it is a little more complicated than that. What i would like to know is where the money has gone to. That is the key question here. Thanks for your advice etc, I do not think I will be so badly off and have more than one iron to poke the fire with so hopefully I will be able to look back on this as a bit of 'industry experience'.

[ExMAGE]

996

Did you get paid and have they sorted things out?

Ta
An interested party!

[gruntfutock]

I have not heard of a company over this way closing down so they must have been paid or could it be loyalty

[996]

ExMAGE nope - no pay. No communication by any form that is from my perspective, the others in the company might have a different set of circumstances. Ive not spoken to anyone there for a while so am now out of the loop.

Gruntfutock - [I like that handle :D] The last I heard which was middle of last week, 2 people already gone, 2 more preparing to go, and 3 or 4 more are actively seeking legal advice /action against the company including me. This is a mix of aircrew/engineers so the ill feeling is evenly spread. I think the only reason the staff have not all walked is cause they do have some loyalty to the past owners and they are hoping this is just a bad patch. But it isnt at all, the three untrustworthy musketeers have done it again.

[ExMAGE]

Sorry to hear that 996,

I had heard very similar from another airfield further south. I am guessing it is throughout the group not just at Norwich.

Good luck

[cladosporangium]

If you remember how to write a cv then I would get writing and if you do not know then you will be looking for "advise please" but I would just copy someone else's and adjust accordingly.

The three muskateers have fingers in many pies so be careful you do not get bitten again. The long arm of the law may help but personally where these people are concern I prefer vigilante treatment. A man has to do what a man has to do!

Unfortunately their assets are protected and again the little honest working folk lose out.

Good luck in your endeavours

[996]

clads. - Thanks for the sentiment and warning. Companies house and credit reference companies provide a wealth of information for a relatively low price. The result of that investment shows a very clear picture of what is going on.

I agree with your sentiments entirely but unfortunately what I had in mind would almost certainly place me in the scrubs!! They are not worth the effort any more, in the end they will do unto themselves as they have done unto others - live by the sword etc.

[gruntfutock]

996
Its not you that should got to the Scrubs but the people who are resonsible for messing up families livelyhoods with such impunity. My advice to them would be get out while you still can and learn that you cann't trust everyone, and some alot less than others.

[ExMAGE]

I bet the owners won't put this information into an email and "send to all" like the last one.

996 - Have you still not been paid?

Ta
EM

[cladosporangium]

Everything seems to have gone quiet. Did everyone get paid in the end? Then I suppose it is expected to all start again when the next payments are due.

I may not be the brightest but you would have to be more than a bit dim not to know who we are talking about here. The crews go out and about during the week and incur "expenses". Are these being paid? That would really add insult to injury if you not only did not get paid your salary but to have to pay your own expenses and not have them paid!!!

Look on the bright side 966 if you do something illegal and end up in prison at least there you have rights and get paid for the work you do! :ok:

[wickednorthernwitch]

Maybe they are quiet as everyone has been paid and they are all busy counting their gold! After all everyone knows how well paid pilots are. Or are they busy talking to solicitors or creditors?

[Qualityman]

Well something must be going right, they certainly don't have time to post on the forum. This thread is full of Newbies, strange that? :E

[996]

ExMAGE - as far as I am aware nobody got paid what they were legally entitled to. We were all stolen from/defrauded call it what you will. Some were paid 4 weeks money and some a lot less than that. I have no real way of knowing the precise detail as all I am aware of is my case and those I have asked.

clado-whateveritisicannotspellit - well that i the question isnt it? Come next month will we all be back here again or will they pay up? Who knows.

wichything, this is across the whole spectrum of employees not just pilots. Even the ops staff are in the same boat. Pilots might be able to last out a few weeks delay but there are a lot of people who cant.

QM yeh well I dont think it strange, there are a lot of people in the group who probably dont normally come here or just lurk. Might not want to put their heads over the parapet without a helmet. Speaking of which, are you sure they aint in here as well?

[ExMAGE]

Seems they have got a life line from some where but just how long is it.

WNW - I would guess the only ones not to be affected were those that created the problem, I think this may have spread throughout the group.

QM - Odd that isn't it.

It will be interesting to see what happens if external agencies start taking an interest!
Bets on whether more "advice" will be required in a couple of weeks

[wickednorthernwitch]

Hi there Qualityman I am one of the "newbies" and I came onto the site to see if the rumours were true and how things would affect me personally. I hate not being paid when payment is due and I despise the people that are doing this. When is the law going to start protecting the "little" man? I am not giving this company any more credit as I will probably not be paid what I am already owed. If I could persuade one of the pilots to purloin one of the jet rangers until all monies owed were paid I would. I even have a near perfect hiding place, a little pad off the beaten track, but are the pipeline helicopters fitted with trackers? It is probably better that I do not know a lot about it because like 996 I do not want to end up in prison - that priveledge should be saved for the "three muskateers" or should we say "musk rats" but that would be an insult to the wildlife or is it vermin?

[996]

Just done a bit of research on pprune and it seem that the three bush pigs have never managed to run a successful company since day 1. Nothing but collapse and failure. Guess we now know where its all going to end then eh? :eek: Of course there might be the possibility that when they cross the road at night and use the tried method of standing still in between the lights so the vehicle passes safely over them that one day it will be a Robin Reliant. Squish.......:D

Road-kill.

[whodictus]

996 you seem to be in the know are the airfield operators servicing the Helis as normal or has the rot really set in?

[gruntfutock]

I've heard from some crews that accounts are closed at some airfields and it is by Credit Card only for fuel and they have to pay landing fees now. Like the rest of us.

[whodictus]

Does that mean bills not being paid?

[gruntfutock]

Who knows only the beenies, but it show a lack of confidence and trust in that Group at this moment. Isn't the Air Ambulance over there a charity I hope there is someone looking after that interest

[wickednorthernwitch]

As soon as the rumours started I contacted numerous people like myself that could be left being owed money. "little people" like myself need protection and if the law is not going to protect us then we have to help ourselves. Anyone that does not ensure that they are paid fuel/landing fees before the crew departs must have more money than sense. What was that about "a bird (or helicopter) in the hand is worth 2 in the bush"?

[gruntfutock]

wickednorthernwitch it seems like you might have done a few people a favour, I hear that yesterday an aircraft was impounded until the operators paid all outstanding bills. EGTU is not big enough to stand the loss. The same applies to a lot of other places. I feel sorry for the crews. I'd hate to be continually placed in that situation.

[Senior Pilot]

The background to this thread topic is obviously very disturbing, but the continuing insistence by a small number of posters to attribute 996's problems to a wider issue just cannot continue.

Should the assertions be disputed by any company then PPRuNe's complicity in allowing the posts to remain in the public domain would put me in an invidious position.

Until the full facts are known and made public, this thread will have to be closed.