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Massey1Bravo
4th Sep 2010, 04:06
Here we go...

Let stewardesses land the plane in a crisis, says Ryanair boss: Airline wants to ditch co-pilots | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1308852/Let-stewardesses-land-plane-crisis-says-Ryanair-boss-Airline-wants-ditch-pilots.html)

Let stewardesses land the plane in a crisis, says Ryanair boss: Airline wants to ditch co-pilots
By SEAN POULTER
Last updated at 10:26 PM on 3rd September 2010

Ryanair's ever-controversial boss has called for the second pilot to be dumped from the flight deck of aircraft to save money.
Michael O'Leary suggested air stewardesses could be trained to take over and land the plane in the event of a crisis.
The idea is the latest in a long line of cash-saving wheezes from the budget airline boss who once suggested, apparently seriously, that aircraft could fly with standing-only areas for passengers.

'Why does every plane have two pilots? Really, you only need one pilot,' he said.
Suggesting flying a plane was little more difficult than playing a computer game, he said: 'Let's take out the second pilot. Let the bloody computer fly it.'
Asked what would happen if the single pilot suffered a heart attack, he said one of the cabin crew would be trained to land a plane.
'If the pilot has an emergency, he rings the bell, he calls her in. She could take over,' he told Bloomberg BusinessWeek.

But the idea was immediately ridiculed as a dangerous fantasy by pilots.
Patrick Smith, a long-serving pilot, told the magazine it was 'beyond preposterous'.
He accused Mr O'Leary of stoking the common misconception that planes more or less fly themselves.
'Even in routine operations, it's important to have a second person there,' he said.
Jim McAuslan, general secretary of the British Airline Pilots' Association, said: 'Are there no lengths to which he will not go to get publicity? His suggestion is unwise, unsafe and the public will be horrified.'
Mr O'Leary has turned Ryanair into one of the world's most profitable airlines by tearing up industry conventions with his 'cattle class' operation.

He appears both to enjoy the controversy his remarks cause as well as being more than half serious. When he dreamed up the idea of standing only areas for passengers he suggested they would hang on to a handrail during take-off and landing.
Another idea was to charge for using the aircraft lavatories.
Following the volcano ash cloud crisis, Mr O'Leary initially announced a cap on the support and compensation to passengers, only to be forced into a Uturn by the EU.
This summer, he infuriated many by introducing a baggage charge for the summer holiday season, which brought a massive increase in the cost of putting luggage in the hold.
Mr O'Leary suggested there is still a long way to go and that many other costs that can be removed to make flights as cheap as possible.
For example, there could come a time when airport baggage handling systems are scrapped in favour of passengers loading their own cases into the hold. Airports are ludicrously complicated places only because we have this utterly useless transaction of taking your bag from you upon departure, just so we can give it back to you at arrival,' he said. 'Get rid of all that ****.'
Mr O'Leary said that while some may ridicule his ideas, they set the template for the way airlines will operate in future.
'For a small little Mickey Mouse Irish airline, the whole industry around the world now watches what we do,' he said.
'If you don't approach air travel with a radical point of view, then you get in the same bloody mindset as all the other morons in this industry.
'In many ways, travel is pleasant and enriching. It's just that the physical process of getting from point A to point B shouldn't be pleasant, nor enriching. It should be quick, efficient, affordable, and safe.'
But Kate Hanni, the founder of FlyersRights.org, a passenger advocacy group, said:
'He insults the dignity of the flying public every time he opens his mouth.'


Read more: Let stewardesses land the plane in a crisis, says Ryanair boss: Airline wants to ditch co-pilots | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1308852/Let-stewardesses-land-plane-crisis-says-Ryanair-boss-Airline-wants-ditch-pilots.html#ixzz0yWgWMO79)

cats_five
4th Sep 2010, 04:38
Yes, here we go with someone not realising that MoL thinks any publicity is good publicity, so he comes out with any number of totally bizarre ideas which will never get any further than the front page of the Daily Splash.

Slasher
4th Sep 2010, 06:07
Yep Im sure any hostie could handle an ELEC EMER CONFIG
in any A320 on a dark and stormey night and bring it down
safely.

The more I hear from this ranting idiot MOL the more I feel
the [email protected] should be removed from the Industry post haste.

Mr O'Leary said that while some may ridicule his ideas, they set the template for the way airlines will operate in future.

What Lorenzo started in 1985 is continued by O'Leary.... :ugh:

Wig Wag
4th Sep 2010, 07:44
Let stewardesses land the plane in a crisis, says Ryanair boss: Airline wants to ditch co-pilots | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1308852/Let-stewardesses-land-plane-crisis-says-Ryanair-boss-Airline-wants-ditch-pilots.html)

Ryanair's ever-controversial boss has called for the second pilot to be dumped from the flight deck of aircraft to save money. Michael O'Leary suggested air stewardesses could be trained to take over and land the plane in the event of a crisis.

and

Suggesting flying a plane was little more difficult than playing a computer game, he said: 'Let's take out the second pilot. Let the bloody computer fly it.' Asked what would happen if the single pilot suffered a heart attack, he said one of the cabin crew would be trained to land a plane. 'If the pilot has an emergency, he rings the bell, he calls her in. She could take over,' he told Bloomberg BusinessWeek.

I fully appreciate that courting controversy is a form of free advertising. However, playing around safety issues takes the gambit into new territory. This is more likely to deter passengers than attract them.

Am I being too polite?

d71146
4th Sep 2010, 08:09
He is always up for a free dose of publicity with some of these outrageous ideas nevertheless he can dream on,just trying to stir the s**t me thinks.

sitigeltfel
4th Sep 2010, 08:16
Ryanair First Officers will be waking up this morning realising how much their boss values and respects them.

spannersatcx
4th Sep 2010, 08:18
and how does the pilot ring a bell when he's had/having a heart attack!:eek:

tocamak
4th Sep 2010, 08:20
Ryanair First Officers will be waking up this morning realising how much their boss values and respects them.

Surely they woke up quite some time ago and knew this!

ReverseFlight
4th Sep 2010, 08:22
Oh, why don't we get rid of the Captain as well and fly it like a drone ? :ugh:

jimworcs
4th Sep 2010, 08:22
I am SLF.. .and when the CEO of a major airline makes statements which suggest that they do not have a "safety first" culture, it makes me question whether I would ever want to fly on them again.

He is an arrogant, hypocritical moron..but I had thought that Ryanair still put safety first. Clearly not..

Cacophonix
4th Sep 2010, 08:39
Ah hah! It is good to see MOL and his hookah smoking marketing team hard at work thinking outside their boxes (or something like that).

I am always amused by their flights of fancy and the outraged reactions he provokes.

Give MOL his due, he knows how to make profits, keep his rivals guessing and ensure that Ryanair is not far from a headline.

The Ryanair publicity team hard at work...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ_WMIalAnAWqPvcpzjZJ3i69PREdgra_vu5VszSkl NO4Rxk40&t=1&usg=__Qb7z7w1NHURbUicAzC7NvxdOt6w=

Edited to say that this quote really did give me a laugh...

But Kate Hanni, the founder of FlyersRights.org, a passenger advocacy group, said:
'He insults the dignity of the flying public every time he opens his mouth.'

Flying public... dignity... hee hee! An ox copulating with a donkey on an ice rink has more dignity!

vserian
4th Sep 2010, 08:57
He is the biggest A hole in the aviation industry!

Dan Air 87
4th Sep 2010, 08:59
Where will this end? Pay to use the loo, the steps, have pax standing up. Now this. I can imagine one W Walsh getting very excited about this idea as what is good enough for Ryanair is good enough for everyone else....

CAT1 REVERSION
4th Sep 2010, 08:59
Typical O'Leary!

And where are all the Captains going to come from when the FO's are redundant!

Ryanair and O'Leary are the Cancer of this Industry.

dj_lethal
4th Sep 2010, 09:01
**** all of them

D O Guerrero
4th Sep 2010, 09:16
Stop commenting! For God's sake - this is just the kind of reaction he's seeking. I realised some time ago just how much I and every single Ryanair employee are valued by our CEO. I don't care! He pays me on time and I have a great job. Clearly we haven't been in the news for a bit, so it needs stoking up a bit. Stop taking the bait...

flying for fun
4th Sep 2010, 09:17
Sack MOL and let the Stewardesses run the Airline

Atreyu
4th Sep 2010, 09:19
"Basically what he is saying is that safety is of no importance at ryanair"

Well we all knew this anyway :E

sunbird123
4th Sep 2010, 09:20
Replace MOL with a computer.

Colonel Klink
4th Sep 2010, 09:25
My concern is; who is going to make my tea if she is helping me land the bloody plane?

corsair
4th Sep 2010, 09:25
I was on a course some time ago which advocates the suggestion of extreme solutions to business problems, outrageous even. The rationale being that it's easier to dilute an extreme suggestion and reduce it to something practical and it encourages creativity. Clearly MOL has been on that course. Which in part is probably why Ryanair is so successful. They are certainly creative when it comes to reducing costs.

The difference with MOL is that he tells the press what he's thinking but he essentially taking the P out of the media because he knows it will generate a headline with his mug and his airline splashed all over the newspapers and all over the net.

He knows too that getting rid of one of the pilots is the extreme idea. But let's water down the idea. Instead of training one of the cabin crew to fly, why not use one of the pilots as cabin crew. So that during cruise the second pilot goes back to the cabin. In fact all you need is a pilot's assistant on the flight deck during high workload periods. Optimise the flight deck for single pilot operations. The assistant can be poorly paid thus saving money and of course he or she will have to pay for any training that will elevate them to Captain.

Of course that's illegal right now. But we have this thing called MPL don't we? A slippery slope that.

I think ultimately with increased and reliable automation we will see a one and half pilots situation. Or at least it will be proposed at some point. That's the real danger of MOLs type of thinking.

Cacophonix
4th Sep 2010, 09:33
You have hit it right on the button Corsair.

I am also sure eventually we will also get to a stage where one man commercial operation has the same risk profile as the current two man norm.

Remember when they said that the third man was indispensable, that you needed four engines at least (add at will to what people said would never be possible or happen)...!

Atreyu
4th Sep 2010, 09:36
Colonel Klink, probably the redundant F/O! Operating as CC until a 'command course' comes up.

MOL is a joke, and the press afford this loon inches of column space :=

Ford Transit
4th Sep 2010, 09:36
> Oh, why don't we get rid of the Captain as well and fly it like a drone ? :ugh:


worked on 9/11

Pete

DB6
4th Sep 2010, 09:42
Hmmm, you have to be even more stupid than I had thought to be an F/O for Pikeyair.

westie
4th Sep 2010, 09:43
They do have a number of incidents but are quite clever at covering them up. Just to mention one......go around at Ciampino, diversion, landing with little more than vapour in the tanks. Up until now, they have managed to avoid a full scale incident!

J.O.
4th Sep 2010, 09:44
What was it that PT Barnum said? Oh yes, "There's a sucker born every minute". This thread is full of them already. Will we ever learn? :rolleyes:

on time all the time
4th Sep 2010, 09:45
.........Are we in April? is it the 1st?
MOL must be in stitches reading all the comments......

aterpster
4th Sep 2010, 09:52
Atreyu:

"Basically what he is saying is that safety is of no importance at ryanair"

Well we all knew this anyway

You got a mouse in your pocket? :)

Crumpled, burning airframes full of dead passengers has a significant impact on the P & L statement.

Atreyu
4th Sep 2010, 09:55
I'm waiting for the day he leaves RYR, because that's the signal that music is about to stop, and he's too clever to be left standing...

I seriously wonder about how much further than can flog the LoCo business model? What next? Coin meters in the arm rests to keep fuel flowing to the engines? Or maybe a treadmill attached to the AC busbars, thereby removing those pesky engine driven generators, saving weight and fuel!:yuk:

Joking aside, what more can this man actually charge in addons until the public finally realise how badly they are being ripped off. You're being spoken to and treated with open disgust by staff whose wages you are PAYING. Wake up.

Atreyu:ok:

Atreyu
4th Sep 2010, 09:57
aterpster, I'm using the royal 'we' here :p

However the point remains, profit is the only thing on his mind.

J.O.
4th Sep 2010, 10:03
Says it all really:

YouTube - FASCINATING AIDA - Cheap Flights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAg0lUYHHFc&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

:}

racedo
4th Sep 2010, 10:28
Its kind of proved my theory that put a Ryanair name of a thread drags out all the idiots as had it been FR rather than BA taking off from wrong runway in the Carribeen it would be up to 100 pages by now of righteous indignation.

Funny how Aircraft manufacturers are already looking at this and have been for a while YET as soon as MOL mentions it the Pavlovian dog mentality strikes.

If Willie Walsh or anybody else had mentioned this then it wouldn't have even got a thread on here.

Anybody who thinks that aircraft manufacturers haven't looked at or explored the use of planes without a flight crew is in dreamland, it may not happen for 20 years but its a next generation possibility.

racedo
4th Sep 2010, 10:31
Joking aside, what more can this man actually charge in addons until the public finally realise how badly they are being ripped off.

Yeah

Lets see fly FR and with all costs included, pay 60% of what BA will charge, you fly on newer planes, get there on time, with no bags lost and staff don't go on strike.

The public know who is ripping them off and that is why Legacy carriers have been abandoned.

Mintheskies
4th Sep 2010, 10:35
I like the suggestions MOL makes, cost reducing always.
Fellow CP's and ATP's, re-read regulations, I'm not sure it is needed to get fired up with such statements to the press.
Though we have to be aware the next steps are toward suppressing fully qualified F/O's from cockpits blw a certain flight level, and have in place a qualified FMS operator.
We might be here to save the acft, yet we remain the primary cause of crashes to the public eyes (thanks to the press as well...).
So I suggest some of us take one step backward, and apply more philosophy to their statements when some crap is reported by the media.
Btw J.O's, your video is just fine.

Massey1Bravo
4th Sep 2010, 10:51
Imagine telling that to a 20 yr old fresh CPL who will probably by the age of 70-75. IMO this will happen in the next 50 years. :sad: :{

Massey1Bravo
4th Sep 2010, 10:56
Have a look at this post by Corsair on the same topic in Jet Blast:

http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=5913038#post5912890

I was on a course some time ago which advocates the suggestion of extreme solutions to business problems, outrageous even. The rationale being that it's easier to dilute an extreme suggestion and reduce it to something practical and it encourages creativity. Clearly MOL has been on that course. Which in part is probably why Ryanair is so successful. They are certainly creative when it comes to reducing costs.

The difference with MOL is that he tells the press what he's thinking but he essentially taking the P out of the media because he knows it will generate a headline with his mug and his airline splashed all over the newspapers and all over the net.

He knows too that getting rid of one of the pilots is the extreme idea. But let's water down the idea. Instead of training one of the cabin crew to fly, why not use one of the pilots as cabin crew. So that during cruise the second pilot goes back to the cabin. In fact all you need is a pilot's assistant on the flight deck during high workload periods. Optimise the flight deck for single pilot operations. The assistant can be poorly paid thus saving money and of course he or she will have to pay for any training that will elevate them to Captain.

Of course that's illegal right now. But we have this thing called MPL don't we? A slippery slope that.

I think ultimately with increased and reliable automation we will see a one and half pilots situation. Or at least it will be proposed at some point. That's the real danger of MOLs type of thinking.

Imagine telling that to a 20 yr old fresh CPL who will probably by the age of 70-75. IMO this will happen in the next 50 years. :sad: :{

Lemain
4th Sep 2010, 10:56
Clearly O'Leary is looking for publicity and he is getting it free of charge. Good for his shareholders and his staff. It's also true that under his leadership he has (or should that be 'had'?) made air travel affordable for many.

At the same time, he is both obnoxious and arrogant. Some years ago Ryanair had to close a route to France - was it somewhere in the Dordogne? Anyway, instead of sympathising with those who had bought properties because the route made it affordable to get to and fro, he said something along the lines of 'Ryanair isn't in business to subsidise British holiday home owners' -- or something to that effect. What would it have cost him to say that the decision had been taken because not enough passengers were flying on the route, being closed with regret, bah, blah...?

However, real blue sky thinking and brainstorming can sometimes lead to great ideas. You guys all thought that O'Leary was talking about getting cabin crew to land a plane....but surely he was thinking of training the FOs to push a trolley! ;) As for 'ringing a bell' if the Captain has a medical emergency it would be perfectly possible to have a 'dead man's handle' device to alert the FO/trolley dolly in the event of an emergency or the Captain could call the FO for take-off, landings and times of heavy workload or when another pair of hands or eyes would be useful. Perfectly do-able without sacrificing safety to any appreciable extent. Mind you, it entirely misses the point that hours in the right hand seat are part of the training for younger pilots who are not going to learn much selling perfume to passengers and that is probably where the whole scheme goes wrong.

As for drones -- I believe that this will happen in due course. Maybe not in any of our lifetimes but already high performance military aircraft are un-flyable (i.e. un-controllable) without a computer controlled feedback loop. The pilot feels as though he is controlling the control surfaces in the usual way whereas the actual function might well be reversed by the computer. If one accepts that in time passenger aircraft might also require such controls, then one has to accept that total computer failure would result in the loss of the aircraft. In which case the pilot is much better off on the golf course and couldn't have done anything had he been in the cockpit. I think that commercial aircraft will one day be flown by machine, maybe with an emergency override that can be managed by a specialist pilot in a dedicated simulator, on the ground, presenting all of the information and sensory feedback, by telemetry. Maybe every aircraft manufacturer would have a live simulator with duty pilot in the left hand seat (or even two pilots) waiting to synchronise with whichever aircraft needs assistance. The big obstacle will be major events such as engine failure that require emergency landing with no ILS or other information available to the on-board computer and no way to estimate or guess the safest landing site. Then again, if the safety pilot on the ground had full visual information from cameras, would that suffice? Modern simulators are still pretty poor on visuals compared with looking out of a cockpit window, but they could improve with HDTV technology, 3D TV technology....maybe in a few decades?

Yes, it can be done and arguably the net effect might be a slight improvement in safety -- even though intuitively most of us would find that hard to believe and I wonder whether passengers would be happy? I don't think I would be...but who knows?

The biggest question is 'why bother'? Machines are unlikely to be as flexible as men in the foreseeable future and machines cannot exercise 'judgement'; nor do they get 'gut feel' when something is wrong. These skills come about from experience -- hours in the air with a more experienced pilot beside you. It's accepted that one's reactions become worse with age and some young pilots can 'fly' better than their Captains but it is the vast experience -- millions upon millions of tiny bits of information resulting from so many hours in the air -- that probably makes the senior Captain 'safer' than the young First Officer. Who can't be learning if he isn't there in the cockpit, which is where we came in.....

Atreyu
4th Sep 2010, 11:02
Where are you getting this 60% figure from? Any facts to back that up? A quick look on google indicates with all charges it's swings and roundabouts who offers better value.

Two examples
Ryanair costs more than British Airways (http://www.lovemoney.com/news/travel/ryanair-costs-more-than-british-airways-3559.aspx)

and

Ryanair more expensive than BA on some flights -Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article6788778.ece)

Regarding their OTP, http://images.emailroi.com/users/flightstats/library164.pdf

Not saying their OTP is bad, but certainly nothing to shout home about, it was 6% better than BA for that sample period, your statement seems to suggest legacy carriers perform worse, however in this sample many low cost and legacy operators place well above them.

Your baggage claim I can't vouch for either way, but if I was a betting man, I would say Ryanair lose their fair share of baggage. Remember, it's often not the airline that even handles the baggage side of things. Besides, with their extortionate hold baggage charges, I would hazard a guess a majority of Ryanair passengers only travel with hand luggage.
[EDIT]
In fact, in the Times Online article, a Ryanair spokesman confirms up to 80% of passengers travel with no hold luggage


You're quite correct their staff don't go on strike, simply because they work in an environment where any trade unionism is aggressively stamped out. Really healthy working culture... Right or wrong, at least the BA cabin staff (in this instance) have a mechanism in which to oppose changes to their contracts that they feel are unacceptable.

(Let's not turn this into a BA Cabin crew debate, there are enough threads on that)

Atreyu:ok:

bfisk
4th Sep 2010, 11:08
This is just "pilot hatred", which I think results from a misunderstanding about automation and it's use. Today, coach bus drivers have automatic transmissions, perhaps cruise control, GPS, and other fancy safety systems such as lane assist, adaptive headlights etc. Does this automation replace the bus driver, or does it help him do his job more efficiently and safely.

As pilots know, the same logic holds true for us, but I think Joe Public thinks that just because we don't physically have to hold the wheel for hours on end, the airplane can "fly itself".

Furthermore, this is hateful against pilots, becuase the logic is flawed. If you want to train the CC to fly the airplane, and fire a pilot, it would be safer and less costly to remove the CC. While I'm sure 99% of safety conscious aviators would go against this, I would think it would make a lot more sense for cost-saving. If you can argue that a pilotless, or single-pilot plane is safe, you could surely argue that less cabin crew (perhaps vending machines instead), is equally safe.

I'd consider it equally unsafe, though. The cost of flight crew makes up for a relatively small amount of operating costs, and reducing them by less than half (given the fact that a skipper costs more than an FO) would not substantially reduce costs. When considering the costs of safety counter-measures, such as training the CC to handle the airplane, increasing the checking of captains, etc, etc, my unqualified guess is that it would largely offset the savings made by offloading the FO.

It just doesn't make sense, operatively or financially.

Massey1Bravo
4th Sep 2010, 11:14
Where are you getting this 60% figure from? Any facts to back that up? A quick look on google indicates with all charges it's swings and roundabouts who offers better value.

What RYR is doing is creating an allusion of low prices, but they don't actually have to provide the lowest price on every ticket because they charge what the market is willing to pay, and the average consumer cannot compare fares easily when there are so many hidden add-on fees especially if they're in a rush. This is how all locos make their profits.

Alsacienne
4th Sep 2010, 11:17
who is going to make my tea

Do you really consider the pouring of substandard water, heated to below boiling point, onto a pad of paper containing a few leaves and sawdust in a paper cup 'making tea'?

Where were you 'brung up'? :E

oxenos
4th Sep 2010, 11:17
We did all this back in March. 17 pages of it. Search "Unnecessary first officers", read it, and save a lot of unnecessary typing. I thought post # 153 was particularly good. But then I would.

Atreyu
4th Sep 2010, 11:21
bfisk, excellent post, agree entirely. Your analogy with a coach driver is also the very reason why MOLs rantings don't cause outcry amongst the general population. Buses have ONE driver. Trains have ONE driver. A lorry has ONE driver. Why does an aeroplane need TWO drivers?

Now we know the score, and theres little in common between driving trains and vehicles and flying an aircraft, but do the public? Because of our draconian terror laws, the public haven't been able to see and relate to what we do for almost a decade now, which I firmly believe is to the detriment of our profession and it's 'standing' in society.

Along with the debasement of air travel to a mere flying bus (which is coincidently is one of MOLs stated aims) more and more of the general public think we are overpaid bus drivers of the sky. How many times have you been asked by a friend or even family member "What do you do all day, doesn't it fly itself?" :ugh:

I would love for that very person to sit on the jumpseat on a dark, rainy night with a howling 25 gusting 35 knot crosswind to contend with, just to see the reaction :p

Atreyu:ok:

Atreyu
4th Sep 2010, 11:26
TwoOneFour, sorry old bean I didn't realise PPRuNe was a newspaper? You're contributing to this very thread by posting how silly it is to post on the subject?

Yeah, nice one... head banging indeed :ugh:

BEagle
4th Sep 2010, 11:26
And wouldn't Mikey-the-Pikey really love it when told that the recent FAA 1500 hour ruling might also become a requirement for all his new RHS suckers....:\

Perhaps there'll soon only be 2 options - an MPL which the airline must subsidise or 1500 hrs?

Anyway, the best solution is to starve the **** of the oxygen of publicity.

Massey1Bravo
4th Sep 2010, 11:32
@Atreyu

I think the real risk here is having the copilot turn into a CC during cruise (give them less training and pay them less) rather than turning a CC into a copilot. This is a real possibility, imagine intelligent autopilots which can interpret CPDLC messages.

Trains have ONE driver

Both the Dubai and Copenhagen metros has driverless trains.

OldChinaHand
4th Sep 2010, 11:36
Mad Mick has done it again, baited the media into another frenzy of free publicity, haha. And wahts even worse most of the posters on this forum have fallen for it too, all the hyertension I have read here. It cannot happen, it wont happen, Mick knows this, but he has his Airlines name splashed everywhere now.

Wake up.

zerotohero
4th Sep 2010, 11:40
Trains have one driver yes, some zero

Trains can just stop if its not looking good!

d105
4th Sep 2010, 11:43
Such rage towards FR on these forums. Perhaps it's because we're paid sometimes twice the average salary?

Atreyu
4th Sep 2010, 11:46
Yes because the workforce is made up of mostly contract pilots? Contract work is usually very lucrative. Good luck getting sick pay from FR if you break your leg for example. I know I can depend on X amount as a minimum coming in every month. Can you?

protectthehornet
4th Sep 2010, 11:46
I think we should all be glad that this has been brought up. The hell with publicity.

there are simple human factors about flying that calls for a check and balance in the cockpit.

has any copilot spoken up when the captain lined up with the wrong runway? yes...and proved his worth at that moment.

there are times when the copilot didn't speak up and disaster followed.

ergo, you need the copilot.

but, has any airline managed to survive disaster solely by the hands of management?

Chesty Morgan
4th Sep 2010, 11:52
Ah Ryanair pilots, always fall back on the "we get paid more than you" statement because that's all that matters to them.

On the subject there are a few first officers I've flown with who are probably better at making tea than operating an airliner.

Single pilot operations is easy, we just don't want interference.

Carvair66
4th Sep 2010, 11:56
The bus analogy is a good one. With home 15-20 mins drive from BRS and a son at uni in Dublin, we use Ryanair as a bus service and the experience is generally good. It's invariably on time, no cancellations so far (ash cloud excepted), the aircraft are new and the fares are low. I can put up with a rent-a-mouth CEO for that service. He must be doing something right! Our experience of Easyjet is at the other end of the scale.

Atreyu
4th Sep 2010, 12:01
Lifted from his very own website...

"Ryanair does not provide monetary compensation under Article 7 of EU Regulation 261/2004 for flights which are delayed or cancelled for reasons beyond Ryanair's control (extraordinary circumstances). You may therefore wish to ensure that you have suitable private insurance cover in force to cover such eventualities"

I wonder how far the goalposts move regarding what he feels is under his airlines control or not?

Atreyu
4th Sep 2010, 12:03
Another gem...

Buy a Ryanair Approved Samsonite Cabin Bag (http://www.ryanair.com/en/notices/gops/101208-samsonite-cabin-bag-GB)

I bet soon there will be a charge for bringing on board a non Ryanair approved cabin bag. You heard it here first.

Atreyu:ok:

Massey1Bravo
4th Sep 2010, 12:09
I think most people here have a vested interest and are dismissing this concept out of hand without having regard of what could happen in the next 30-50 years. Today's young pilots need to think about whether this will be a viable career path 40-50 years down the road assuming continued increases in the retirement age.

There has been a massive increase in computer power in the last 20 years and electrical supplies have been very reliable. (I can only remember one incident where a Qantas 744 lost all AC busses) It's not unfathomable that computers will take over critical functions previously performed by the F/O. There could be major layoffs or loss of T&Cs for the F/Os during fleet renewal.

Lemain
4th Sep 2010, 12:16
I can put up with a rent-a-mouth CEO for that service. He must be doing something right! Our experience of Easyjet is at the other end of the scale. I use both a great deal -- like a bus service throughout Europe. The ground and barely-existent office staff of both are hell on earth. The extra costs are invariably more then the headline price of the flight. However, most of the cabin crew are excellent, flight crew well-turned out and seem to arrive in one piece. Aircraft seem fine, too, inside and around the aircraft look clean, modern, maintained.... I have no problems with Easy Jet or Ryanair, as a passenger, once I have boarded. I am perfectly happy in the air with both companies.

Too much knocking isn't going to do much for their self-esteem and is unjustified and more than a little unkind.

Atreyu
4th Sep 2010, 12:29
Current gen technology makes this pipe dream unattainable for MOL. It will take a radical advance in both the capability and reliability of avionics systems before the regulators could be convinced to remove the F/O from the flight deck.

Looking at the very latest flight deck technology, such as the A380, 787 or even the Embraer E jet series, (of which I have some operational experience) it's not in any way a vast leap from the 747-400 or Airbus A320 series for example, which are now over 20 years old in design terms.

Plus, how do you train these solo captains once the experienced lot retire?

As Massey1Bravo put, the real danger is having the F/O punted down the back in the cruise to sell scratch cards and overpriced drinks. Again, it's all about the debasement of our profession that alot of people wouldn't find that idea unpalatable.

Atreyu:ok:

vulcanised
4th Sep 2010, 13:04
Well, they got rid of conductors on buses a long time ago.

bmibaby319
4th Sep 2010, 13:18
Here we go again..Another Stupid Idea...

Nulli Secundus
4th Sep 2010, 13:27
Ryanair's ever-controversial boss has called for the second pilot to be dumped from the flight deck of aircraft to save money. Michael O'Leary suggested air stewardesses could be trained to take over and land the plane in the event of a crisis.

Now if I was the Head of Marketing at Easyjet et al, I'd be so grateful to Mr O'Leary:

"........ whilst our competitor's stewardess may 'have a go' landing your plane, ours just serve you great coffee....... oh, and our TWO professional, highly skilled pilots: they're where you always want them to be, taking care of every touch down - no need to worry at ........"

A few carefully worded marketing promo's might silence Mr O'Leary!

CloudSurferUK
4th Sep 2010, 13:32
ZAg0lUYHHFc
YouTube - FASCINATING AIDA - Cheap Flights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAg0lUYHHFc)

Lon More
4th Sep 2010, 13:36
Feckwit. After yesterday in Dubai, what looks like 2 crew unable to fight a fire he might want to forget the idea

etrang
4th Sep 2010, 14:00
MOL is a joke, and the press afford this loon inches of column space

Pprune gives him far more space than any newspaper.

Hotel Tango
4th Sep 2010, 14:03
More than a year ago there was great debate about RYR considering making pax pay for using the loo. Did RYR ever introduce this? No, of course not. Just the way this single pilot idea is a non starter for the foreseable future. MOL just loves having a joke and getting free publicity. Personally, I don't fly RYR and never will but that's another story.

Bus429
4th Sep 2010, 14:11
MOL is a plonker :yuk: However, it is nothing more than publicity.
One wonders how Ryanliar will get hold of captains when there will be nobody on the fleet doing right seat time and nobody to promote!

El Grifo
4th Sep 2010, 14:17
I spend many hours of my life flying around the planet. I use schedule and charter.

Incredibily, I only had need to use Ryanair recently for the first time. I was suitably impressed.

The legroom was much more than that of the more expensive charters, the aircraft were clean and modern and the staff were fine.


I am of the firm belief that the seat pitch in the aircraft of the big two, TUI and TC, have reached danger point.

Getting seated now, is akin to the astronauts of old lowering themselves into the Apollo capsule.

I cannot imagine the evacuation scenario should passengers have to depart the aircraft in a hurry.

In this brave new world where " elf n safety" are king and queen, I fail to understand why this situation is permitted.

If Ryanair can offer greater seating pitch at lower prices, why can't the majors do similar ??

Economics101
4th Sep 2010, 14:25
I presume there is no way the FAA, the CAA or whoever else is responsible for regulation will allow single pilot operation anytime soon (if ever). In that case M O’L can go on with whatever nonsense he likes: it ain’t going to happen.
The real villains in my opinion are the lazy sods in the media, who will print any rubbish. If they had just a tad of professionalism, then M O’L would be baying at the moon, all on his own.
One of life’s mysteries is how more and more bad publicity and horror stories (real or fabricated) seem only to increase Ryanair’s business. Some day there will be a tipping point, in which case the Motormouth of Mullingar will have to have a silencer fitted.

PaperTiger
4th Sep 2010, 14:31
69 posts responding to a predictable piece of nonsense from a well-documented idiot :ugh: . Thought this was a professional pilots' forum.

Callsign Kilo
4th Sep 2010, 14:33
I cant believe this has been given the bandwidth. But yet again he has succeeded to wind up the pilots. Just accept that he will continually say what he wants whenever he wants. Its never going to harm his reputation because he doesn't have a reputation to harm. So whats the problem if he spouts bullsh1t about ripping two of the lavs out of the back of the 738, having people standing on their 4 hour flight down to the Canaries or charging them a quid to re-leave themselves? He gets his publicity and Boeing and the certifying authorities get a good ******* chuckle. Same shite with regards to disposing the FO.

Just shrug your shoulders and accept Michael is at it again. Yawn.

Manual Braking
4th Sep 2010, 14:36
Has MOL forgotten about his signed memorandum from the board of directors to pilots regarding the 500ft continue/go-around call? It is a requirement for the PM to monitor the PF and determine if the aircraft is within the stated paramenters when passing 500ft on final approach.

Although i suppose it's free publicity! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Avman
4th Sep 2010, 14:47
Getting seated now, is akin to the astronauts of old lowering themselves into the Apollo capsule.

I cannot imagine the evacuation scenario should passengers have to depart the aircraft in a hurry.

In this brave new world where " elf n safety" are king and queen, I fail to understand why this situation is permitted.

There was a debate about minimum seat pitch in the SLF forum. The thread was closed and I (and a few others) got banned from the SLF forum for simply having a different opinion to that of the moderator regarding the subject of your 2nd para above. Controlled simulations with volunteers (generally of an aviation background) has indicated that 28" will not impede the rapid evacuation of an a/c within the required time parameters and therefore it is deemed legal. Fine, but all I'm saying is that I'd like to see more realistic simulations with a charter load of panicked, obese fly-once-a-year holiday pax and their kids. That may just paint a different picture. Unfortunately, there are too many "commercial" pressures involved for the process to be more critically appraised.

206Fan
4th Sep 2010, 15:49
The man is an utter lunatic if this stupid idea has come into his head :ugh:

Storminnorm
4th Sep 2010, 15:59
I don't fly anywhere anymore.
Too much hassle.
And I would HATE to have to land the thing if the Captain died.

Captain Stable
4th Sep 2010, 16:04
Anyone who thinks:-

1) Ryanair are a low-cost airline;
2) the management of Ryanair see safety as their first priority;
3) MO'L is not a genius at making money and using publicity;
4) you get more than you pay for in aviation;
5) Ryanair in general and MO'L in particular value their staff as an asset of the company and passengers as valuable providers of income

...is an idiot.

Tamer
4th Sep 2010, 16:51
Instead of of getting rid of the FO's maybe he should learn how to hedge fuel and save his share holders some cash.

oxenos
4th Sep 2010, 17:42
Have any of you read post #42?

Palangi
4th Sep 2010, 18:34
As a Ryanair pilot, you'd be fired if you publicly rubbished his airline.

Yet he can publicly rubbish and belittle your function.
(Remember how hard you worked for that licence)?

Time to move on perhaps !

OFSO
4th Sep 2010, 18:37
A far more serious Ryanair problem - little mentioned on PPRuNe - is his stabbing-in-the-back of Girona and Girona airport: all the city council's financial support of Ryanair at GRO over the past years counts for nothing and MoL's usual blackmailing tactics are now in play as he tosses the balls of Girona, Reus, and Barcelona in the air and decides which one to support and which ones to let down.

After years of flying FR on a monthly basis we now have had enough and use a more expensive (but more comfortable) alternative.

Incidently the TGV to Paris (and the UK via Eurostar) starts running from Figueras, Catalunia, on December 12th on the new tracks under the Pyranees.

Slasher
4th Sep 2010, 18:37
You are all playing into his hands. He has no wish to remove the Fo, it is purely publicity! And you fallen for it!

For publicity?

All that MOL gets is sh!t thrown at him for the complete
f**kwit he is. If thats the kind of "publicity" he wants I
encourage him to continue so till the d!ckhead goes broke! :*

Rollingthunder
4th Sep 2010, 18:39
Put MOL in Left Hand seat at FL310 and let him land ,everyone else - bailout, with appropriate gear. Quite insane - good way to get rid of insane CEO.

dilldog01
4th Sep 2010, 19:25
well just on Pprune (let alone the general media)you have 5 pages of people talking about Ryanair..mission accomplished Mr O Leary

sidestickbob
4th Sep 2010, 19:27
Why does anybody work for this prick? If Ryanair pilots hate MOL so much why don't they stop acting like a load of big girls and vote with their feet? I wouldn't work for MOL if Ryanair was the last airline on earth - frankly I'd rather put pins in my eyes than work for someone like MOL who has no respect for me. Nuff said.

Heavy operator
4th Sep 2010, 19:54
Aside from all the moral outrage from the ignoranti, what we have here in MOLs statement is the single biggest piece of evidence that Ryanair place economics above safety. If the CEO can state unequivocally that he would rather get rid of his unwanted First Officers and have a "stewardess" land one of his aircraft in the event of a single pilot becoming incapacitated in order to save on costs and make even more money, then no amount of legal threats from his lawyers should make any difference to anyone repeating this statement.

Ryanair boss states he would prefer to reduce safety in order to make more profit. An attitude that filters down from the top.

All previous incidents that have questioned the safety of Ryanair's methods of operation are most likely true. All incidents where it has been questioned whether the cost cutting had an influence, are therefore most likely true.

Unixman
4th Sep 2010, 22:08
Actually a comment underneath the Telegraph's article was full of good ideas:

"1. Offer a small discount on travel for people who have held private flying licences, have had commercial licences but been disbarred because of drink problems or were military fliers who lost their nerve. The understanding is that these step in if the pilot is incapacitated; the chief stewardess will mop his brow and feed him coffee or brandy according to choice.

2. In the event that there is nobody with hands on flying experience (even a one hour introductory lesson) an appeal will be made for anyone who has used Micrososoft Flight Simulator. The replacement pilot shall be the candidate with the most hours on Flight Simulator. That could turn out to be a spotty fifteen year old youth."

Now of course the replacement pilot(s), always to be called Otto, is fully automated who is given a BJ upon first use ...

(tongue firmly in cheek)

G-CPTN
4th Sep 2010, 23:28
Whatever happened to George?

Lemain
4th Sep 2010, 23:38
Whatever happened to George? She's now called Georgina.

Cacophonix
5th Sep 2010, 00:30
You have to love pilots. Like girls (even if they are girls) they are romantics and the hard hearted boss bastards know this.

Am I wrong?

NF

ZOOKER
5th Sep 2010, 00:38
Ladies and Gentlemen,
this is surely a wind-up.
How much will cabin-crew have to pay for this flight-deck experience?

Never_to_old
5th Sep 2010, 00:39
Ryanair boss blasted for pilot call - UK News - MSN News UK (http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=154583124) - Sounds like a grand idea.....:eek:

Cacophonix
5th Sep 2010, 00:41
How much will cabin-crew have to pay for this flight-deck experience? Be honest with yourself... How much easier has flying become in the last 20 years....?

mini
5th Sep 2010, 01:05
I can't believe this has resulted in 5 or 6 pages of replies.

MoL must be laughing himself to sleep.

Cacophonix
5th Sep 2010, 01:08
MoL must be laughing himself to sleep.;)

Shall I compare thee to a....

KENNEDY TOWER
5th Sep 2010, 07:02
Guys::Guys::Guys.

Mr. O Leary is taking the mickey and unfortunately you are falling for it, Michael has as much chance as replacing co-pilots as a farmer in ALABAMA trying to pack butter up a polecat's ASS with a red hot poker. The suggestion to replace co-pilots is utter b------t and he knows it and it would never fly.:= Mr. O Leary loves to wind you guys up and succeeding.!!!:ugh:

Captain Stable
5th Sep 2010, 11:31
So, as I understand it, no matter what idiocies or safety-endagering "brainwaves" the foul-mouthed little shit comes up with, we are not allowed to comment on either his idiocies or the fact that he is a foul-mouthed little shit?

A pumps
5th Sep 2010, 11:54
God forbid if Ryr ever has a serious accident all these comments will come back to haunt him !


Certainly this industry would be a whole lot better off without this MORON

A and C
5th Sep 2010, 12:02
Six pages and still going strong ! And the best part of the thread is the link to the Fascinating Aida website..................... did I laught at that song, so near the truth it must hurt MOL!

Cacophonix
5th Sep 2010, 12:12
Anyone who thinks:-

1) Ryanair are a low-cost airline;
2) the management of Ryanair see safety as their first priority;
3) MO'L is not a genius at making money and using publicity;
4) you get more than you pay for in aviation;
5) Ryanair in general and MO'L in particular value their staff as an asset of the company and passengers as valuable providers of income

...is an idiot.One would almost think that you don't like MO'L or approve of his modus operandi Captain. ;)

As an agent provocateur Mr O'Leary is clearly a genius.

contractor25
5th Sep 2010, 12:24
why is everyone so surprised at his antics? Once a farmer always a farmer.

it's the only airline in the world run by a farmer, now that is cost-cutting in it's finest form!!!!!

fireflybob
5th Sep 2010, 16:32
Bit like Stephen Hawking's comments in his latest book "The Grand Design", that "a god was not needed for the creation of the universe" which have done more to put the concept of God on the front pages than the Archbishops or the Pope could ever hope for!

Firestorm
5th Sep 2010, 17:18
Unbelievable. I mean the reaction not the comments. Get over yourselves.

spanner the cat
5th Sep 2010, 17:25
You could look at it another way.

I always thought the textbook of airline management wanted future a/c crews to consist of a pilot and a dog - the pilot is there to feed the dog and the dog to bite the pilot if they go near the controls.

So now it's moving on from dogs to cabin crew. We can only conclude that MOL thinks CC are cheaper to run than dogs :uhoh:

Barking. :\

onwardsandupwards
5th Sep 2010, 17:32
O'Leary is single-handedly bringing the aviation industry to its knees whilst making a mockery out of aviation safety and work practices at the same time.

If an idiot like this worked at my company he would be ousted immediately. Joke or no joke, the sooner O'Leary is ejected from this industry the better, and more fools the 'yes men' who work for him.

God forbid the day when something goes seriously wrong as a result of his love of money.

Captain Stable
5th Sep 2010, 17:46
o&u - correct.

As anyone who takes a close interest in the incident record of more than one country knows, Ryanair is not a safe airline. They have had too many incidents for a safe airline. They run on EI reg in order to avoid the scrutiny of the CAA, despite being overwhelmingly a UK-based airline.

Sooner or later they are going to have a very serious accident. Let's hope it doesn't result in too many fatalities.

(My favourite accident would be one in which a poorly-maintained and unattended 737 starts up engines all on its own, jumps its chocks and taxys at speed straight through the car park and MO'L's car with him inside it...

Well, I can dream, can't I? :E )

sitigeltfel
5th Sep 2010, 17:52
Ryanair is not a safe airline. They have had too many incidents for a safe airline.

Stats and proof please?

Captain Stable
5th Sep 2010, 18:08
It's all out there. Go and look. Or ask your company FSO.

Furthermore, there is not a culture of safety within the management of the airline.

Two possibilities - "The squeaky wheel shows the need for grease" or "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down". Guess which one is RyanAir.

wings folded
5th Sep 2010, 18:21
Originally Posted by Captain Stable http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/426275-mol-wants-operate-without-fos-6.html#post5915597)
Ryanair is not a safe airline. They have had too many incidents for a safe airline.

Stats and proof please?

I agree.

How many fatalities? How many injuries?

Do tell us please.

d105
5th Sep 2010, 18:30
"Typical Ryanair pilot". I'm not a "Ryanair" pilot. I'm a pilot who happens to fly aircraft with a Ryanair logo on them. Why can't we just treat eachother like colleagues rather than labeling someone based on their employer. With regard to what MOL says... The 737 is a multi-pilot aircraft. Nothing he can do about it. Next!

Captain Stable
5th Sep 2010, 18:39
wings folded - if you had any training in safety as a discipline you would know and appreciate that an accident-free record is not evidence of a safe organisation.

In fact, an airline with a trail of incidents and fatalities as long as your arm could be far safer than one with no accidents at all. If you can't follow this, go read almost any book by James Reason, but "Human Error" is one of the best. ISBN 978-0521314190 Cambridge University Press.

FR have had quite a few incidents that they have managed to hush up in the Irish and British press. They do not have a culture of safety within their management. The IAA, partly for reasons of lack of manpower and partly for other reasons into which for obvious reasons I will not go here, are unable to keep reins on FR. There is therefore serious lack of effective regulation.

The problems at FR are not - I repeat, not - active problems with the front-line staff. They are institutional, latent and organisational.

fireflybob
5th Sep 2010, 18:42
They run on EI reg in order to avoid the scrutiny of the CAA, despite being overwhelmingly a UK-based airline.

With bases and flights all over Europe I would dispute that Ryanair is "overwhelmingly a UK-based airline"!

Captain Stable
5th Sep 2010, 18:44
ffbob - where is their main hub? Where do most of their aircraft finish their day? Where do most of their aircrew live and report for work?

Sunnyjohn
5th Sep 2010, 23:00
You are quite wrong to suppose that Ryanair or any other low cost airline does not have safety as its number one concern. No airline - least of all a low cost airline - can afford to have an accident. Should you doubt this, ask Spanair - they lost thousands of passengers to internal Spanish flights after the Madrid accident and guess who picked them up? Like the rest of you, I think that O"Leary is a s**t but he is the best thing that ever happened to Ryanair and the fact that they are the most successful low cost airline in Europe is largely down to his publicity shenanigans. Low cost airlines will get their come-uppance when high speed rail travel is universal throughout Europe - two or three years at most. Ryanair are well aware of this, which is why they are saturating Europe with their aircraft while the going is good. Already it is possible to travel by rail from Barcelona to London in twelve hours and soon that time will be cut in half. I'm a regular traveller between Valencia and the UK and all the people I talk to hate air travel. Given a cost -equivalent alternative where they will not have to pay for baggage, nor be treated like cattle, and they will migrate to high speed rail.

Slasher
5th Sep 2010, 23:13
Already it is possible to travel by rail from Barcelona to London
in twelve hours and soon that time will be cut in half.

12 hours? Christ even 6 hours would be too long. Id rather
fly it instead but definitley not with MOL's mob.

Nigd3
6th Sep 2010, 00:48
I think a previous poster already said this got beaten to death in R&N a while back.

Single pilot ops for airlines is already being looked at by some big players like Thales. I think it will come eventually, just not as fast as MOL would like it.

Firestorm
6th Sep 2010, 07:46
50 years ago there were 5 people on the flight deck, 10 years ago (or thereabouts) the last Flight Engineer hung up his headset leaving 2 on the flight deck. Within the last 5 years aeroplanes have been flying surveillance missions over combat areas, and within that time delivering weapons with no pilots on board. WHy does it seem so inconceivable that at some point there will be only one pilot on board (many fighter aircraft are single pilot, and they are far more complex to fly, and their flight profiles are considerably more complicated than climb cruise, descend and land as airliners do), and in due course none? Ways will be found to persuade the public that it's safe. If we think that we as a profession are flame proof from change are deluded.

Cacophonix
6th Sep 2010, 09:44
It has been interesting to read the comments of some posters with reference to safety stats and safety culture in certain companies.

Captain Stable mentioned that an airline with a number of serious reported incidents and fatalities may in fact be safer than an airline that does not have any reported incidents or fatalities. In saying this he is quite correct but one then has to look at similar indicators or statistics over a stastically meaningful period when making comparisons.

If an airline is rumoured to have an unsafe culture but does not have an incident or accident, is the statistician to assume that that airline is merely more 'lucky'?

The longer the period of observation the less likely that 'luck' or the Gods of chance will suffice to keep the slate clean (think of playing Russian roulette here). On this basis Ryanair seems to have a statistically acceptable safety record despite some posters intimations of a deeper understanding of an unsafe culture within the company.

Just because MO'L says something provocative or makes an off the wall comment does not make it so within the existing corporation or practically possible within the bounds of current legislation.

On another tack I was very amused to read this article. It appears Ryanair also looks at the economics of sending safety related info back to base... (I expect incoming).

How Ryanair plays it safe (http://www.tribune.ie/business/article/2008/sep/28/how-ryanair-plays-it-safe/)


Horgan said Ryanair, of all the lowcost airlines, gets most attention because of its lowcost business model that involves a quick turn-around of its planes at airports. In other industries, higher than average margins can suggest corners are being cut.


"We are treated unfairly sometimes, but it can act to our advantage. We believe we are the most audited by the local aviation authorities.


"They meet aircraft and they want to see that all the documentation is correct and the fuel is correct. We are delighted by this," he said.
Ryanair, he says, was the first airline in the world to fit a management system that measures 120 safety checks on each of its flights. On landing, the encrypted information is sent automatically by mobile phone to a London auditor, Flight Operation Quality Assurance, that immediately analyses it to identify whether the pilot was flying safely.


"It is to prevent a rogue pilot, somebody who is deliberately flouting procedures. What other airlines do can take up to six weeks and it is out of date. We are getting that information within hours," said Horgan.


(But being Ryanair, he says, the system on board is attached to no fewer than five mobile phones which select the lowest-cost phone operator locally to send the data.)


His job is to ensure the safety management system is working and to inform the board of all safety issues at any time. He talked to the board in recent days about the diversion of the flight to Limoges and the Spanair crash

Blacksheep
6th Sep 2010, 10:05
Lancasters only had one pilot. On the other hand everyone on board had a parachute. ;)

Cacophonix
6th Sep 2010, 10:47
I know the man's got a track record for lying, but he wasn't far off the mark in his description of himself in this article....:D

Ryanair case crash lands spectacularly in the High Court - Analysis, Opinion - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/ryanair-case-crash-lands-spectacularly-in-the-high-court-132456.html)An interesting article, more so for the profile of the company within the Irish economy.

Ryanair is a relatively big fish in Ireland's relatively small pond with all the issues that may come from that profile. Clearly a bullying and manipulative culture is going to breed dissension and unhappiness and might be a meaningful indicator in any safety analysis.

Sunnyjohn
6th Sep 2010, 12:06
"12 hours? Christ even 6 hours would be too long. Id rather
fly it instead"

Interesting. Most low-cost flights use cheaper airports some distance from a city centre. Rail takes you to the centre. Allow 30 minutes each end to get to and from the airport. Allow at least two hours in the airport, more like three, and an hour at the other end, if you have hold luggage. That's four hours, two hours for your flight - that's six hours. If high speed rail can do it in six hours I know which I'd prefer.

eireoflot82
6th Sep 2010, 14:10
Speaking as someone who works in the ad industry it's interesting to look at the Ryanair marketing philosophy.Obviously they have decided that pr is more valuable than a finely crafted brand image.What O'leary says about the f.o. gets him the attention he needs(usually 4 times a year) but the real message was his focus on ancillary revenue. Ryanair have a good in-house marketing team but O'Leary's personal antics have brought them into territory that few companies in our pc. society wish to be. Where this will leave the airline when he retires is difficult to judge.

plasticAF
6th Sep 2010, 14:29
Whilst we're all banging on about safety and publicity.
What ancilliary charges has the airline put UP?
Am I right in saying that nearly every time an announcement like this appears; up go the extra charges.
Any takers?

kanik2000
6th Sep 2010, 16:08
Why ?? If RYR carry 4 cabin crew, it is to satisfy the safety rules. 4 doors, 4 cabin crew. If they could they would have removed already one or two of them. A CPL in the back to help for service ?? Which service ?

redED
6th Sep 2010, 21:11
Ryanair First Officers will be waking up this morning realising how much their boss values and respects them.

Pretty sure Ryanair don't actually have (m)any FOs, aren't they mostly contractors?! :O

rp122
6th Sep 2010, 22:23
Everyone in the World, from his next door neighbour to shoppers at Tesco to airline staff, passengers and media.

Just ignore M O'L like he doesn't exist. Really freak him out until he rejoins reality.

Nobody speak to him, or even recognise that he exists.
See how fast his little ego evaporates to find a better vessel to live in.

Pass the idea on to everyone in your address book, this is confirmed as a great idea by Microsoft!

rottenray
7th Sep 2010, 01:43
onwards writes:

O'Leary is single-handedly bringing the aviation industry to its knees whilst making a mockery out of aviation safety and work practices at the same time.
An outside perspective here: I disagree.

Every time O'Leary makes one of his yahoo statements, it makes the legacies look safer and more respectable - and his oddball comments also give his own outfit free publicity.

He's clearly the P.T. Barnum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._T._Barnum) of aviation.


Captain Stable writes:

any training in safety as a discipline you would know and appreciate that an accident-free record is not evidence of a safe organisation
Absolutely correct. It is evidence of an organization which has not had an accident.

The question is, "how long can it go on that way?"


Sunny writes:

No airline - least of all a low cost airline - can afford to have an accident.Absolutely correct. The "mother" of FR - Southwest Airlines - is another carrier which is fun to pick on, but has an above-average safety record.

In both cases, I think part of it is due to the fact that they were planned from the beginning as low-cost operations. I think some of the constant internal shuffling as legacies try to re-organize to survive impacts safety and certainly impacts morale.


Bottom line is this. O'Leary is a lot of fun to watch, if you don't let him ruffle your feathers.

Firestorm
7th Sep 2010, 07:42
If all the FO at Ryan Air were to not turn up to work one day the Mr O'Leary would discover the value of them, or if even one member of the crew, flight deck or cabin, were to take a sickie on a particular day he would find that whilst he believes himself to be a rock the regulation is the immovable object, much as his aeroplanes would be for the day!

Cacophonix
7th Sep 2010, 08:48
I suspect that MO'L is stuck with FOs as well as their similar sounding insults in perpetuity for the simple reason that, technological advances aside, every apprentice needs a sorceror.

Pilots learn from seasoned professionals and without that slow accumulation of wisdom that comes from observing and learning arcane wisdom from the person they call the Captain, the whole accumulated edifice of flying history, wisdom and experience that makes flying safe would be decimated within a few years.

One doesn't learn about the subtle windshear that can turn an approach at certain places into a disaster while serving crap and expensive coffee to people who don't want pilots to be serving them anyway. FOs should be where they are needed, in the pointy end, hopefully shutting up, listening, learning and occasionally lowering the gear when bidden.

As de Saint-Exupery said...

If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea.

RAT 5
7th Sep 2010, 11:54
Judge Smyth rejected the evidence of Ryanair's head of personnel, Eddie Wilson, as "baseless and false".

He went further. "The pleaded concern and invocation of the statutory duties" to protect its staff from bullying and intimidation, "was to lend a facade of concern" to Ryanair's action against the pilots.

"It is a feigned exercise," he found, designed to divide the loyalty of the pilots.

From many of the posts here on Prune it seems that the staff are most at risk of bullying from their self-declared saviour. Following the judge's statements about falsifying evidence, is the act of perjury still punishable in Ireland? Surely a judge can not allow such action to go un-noticed.

Mikehotel152
7th Sep 2010, 21:17
As anyone who takes a close interest in the incident record of more than one country knows, Ryanair is not a safe airline. They have had too many incidents for a safe airline. They run on EI reg in order to avoid the scrutiny of the CAA, despite being overwhelmingly a UK-based airline.

This is an extraordinary statement. The author is clearly just a troll or very uninformed.

If that were true, what on earth does it say about most of the legacy carriers!?

And RYR's head office is in Ireland and the majority of their operations are outside the UK.


:ugh:

Captain Stable
8th Sep 2010, 10:05
mikehotel, I am neither a troll nor uninformed.

On aviation safety matters I am more informed than the majority here, as many of the moderators and longer-term members of PPRuNe know.

As for Ryanair's head office, its location is irrelevant. The majority of their operations are centred on STN.

fireflybob
8th Sep 2010, 17:26
Why not get the pilots to act as CEO and Board Directors on a rotational basis - surely that would save some money?

ShyTorque
8th Sep 2010, 19:54
MOL wants to operate without FOs

Well, the CAA won't let him.

........any more news? ;)

Nigd3
8th Sep 2010, 20:51
ShyTorque

Currently....the CAA won't let him......or should that be EASA won't let him ;)
Nothing gets rules changed faster than commercial pressure

Jetex_Jim
8th Sep 2010, 22:02
Dumping the FO is a bloody silly idea. They'd save more by dumping the Captain.

SyllogismCheck
9th Sep 2010, 00:05
Marketing genius. He suggests something daft and once again the name Ryanair is plastered not only here but all over the internet and press by all and sundry.

As an aside while we're on the subject, during a chat with a point of sale electonics firm, it emerged they've apparently won the contract with FR for fitting both the coin slots to the lifevest holders and the card swipe machines to the oxygen masks. Interesting stuff.

Soave_Pilot
14th Sep 2010, 19:41
What a retard. How can someone like that run a company.

Fujiflyer
14th Sep 2010, 20:15
Ryanair pilot suggests cheap replacement for boss Michael O'Leary | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/sep/14/ryanair-pilot-replace-michael-oleary)

Looking at his grin shown on this link, one wonders if there is a second one of these toy replicas pointing "elsewhere" on / in his anatomy - ie rotated through 180 deg and somewhat lower down...

dannyalliga
15th Sep 2010, 00:14
Morgan,

the whole pilot community is with you!
You set an example for all of us.

Taken from today's issue of the Financial Times:

Get cabin crew to replace Ryanair CEO

Published: September 13 2010 22:25 | Last updated: September 14 2010 04:20

From Captain Morgan Fischer.
Sir, I would like to share with you a cost-saving suggestion I have proposed to the Ryanair board . I write in my capacity as a B737-800 line training captain assigned to Ryanair’s Marseilles, France base. My primary job responsibility involves the line training and checking of co-pilots and captains on both an initial and a recurrent basis.



As a Ryanair employee, I am aware of the company’s desire to reduce costs whenever feasible, and, in so doing, pass on these lower costs in the form of lower fares to the travelling public.
I would propose that Ryanair replace the chief executive with a probationary cabin crew member currently earning about €13,200 net a year. Ryanair would benefit by saving millions of euros in salary, benefits and stock options. Further, there will be no need to petition either Boeing or governmental aviation regulators for approval to replace the CEO with a cabin crew member; as such approval would not be required.
Finally, the position of CEO could, in fact, become a source of ancillary revenue for Ryanair. Currently, Ryanair’s contract cabin crew providers charge new recruits for the cost of their training – €3,000 in fact. Ryanair could similarly charge €3,000 for the training required to become chief executive.
Captain Morgan Fischer,
LTC, Ryanair/Marseilles,
Aix-en-Provence, France