Helicopters with wheels are forbidden to hovertaxy or not?

[BTO]

Hello to all, i recently heard a discussion that helicopters fitted with wheels are forced to taxy rolling, except in emergency. Is this true???

[Gomer Pylot]

Can't say for the entire world, but in the USA, no. I can't think of a reason to forbid hovering. We ground-taxi if possible most of the time, to prevent wind damage to other aircraft on the ramp, but hovering is certainly not forbidden.

[Coconutty]

forced

By who ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[BTO]

The discussion started because an heavy helicopter landed directly at about 8 meters blade tip to blade tip from an AS350 helicopter. The heavy not only landed that far but he hover for a while before touchdown. The AS350 had both rotor baldes removed for inspection. And someone said that by legislation he was obliged to taxy rolling.

[gfuller]

Wheels or skids, a wheeled helo has no restrictions to hover taxiing. But any pilot must always consider effect of his downwash on other aircraft. When there may be excessive downwash, ground taxi if possible. Also I would not hover taxi too close a fixed wing due to the large amount of wing and moveable flaps.
Just use good comon sense and courtesy to other operators.

[fly911]

For a small fee I can send you a letter of authorization on official looking letterhead.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/g-man.gif

ummmm...not

[Earl of Rochester]

- BTO

Welcome to PPRuNE!

There are some airports which place restrictions on non-wheeled helicopters in terms of access to certain parts of the airfield - London Gatwick being one of them.

International airports often allow wheeled helicopters more freedom than those with skids but .. this varies all over the world and there are doubtless examples to the contrary!

Earl

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/8/8/6/1693688.jpg (http://www.pprune.org/photo/Aero-Asahi/Bell-430/1693688/L/&sid=e012c1863fd84cfb790e2e6168a5a3ae)

Bell 430 of Aero Asahi manuevering on the parallel taxiway of Japan's Nagoya airport

[Canuck Guy]

Heavy or otherwise, one should always take care landing anywhere near an Astar :ugh:

[[email protected]]

Sounds just like a case of poor airmanship.

ATC like helos to ground taxy at airports because then we follow the FW taxiways and the controllers find it easier to keep track of us.:)

[ShyTorque]

Sounds just like a case of poor airmanship.

ATC like helos to ground taxy at airports because then we follow the FW taxiways and the controllers find it easier to keep track of us.

Poor airmanship indeed!

Having said that, I still follow FW taxiways in the hover taxy if there's a choice. It's quicker, the pax prefer it and it saves the tyres and brakes too.

[Coconutty]

Aaaaahhhh - Of course :

..... someone said .....IMHO - Hover taxi-ing over the taxiways doesn't suck anyway near as much
mown grass into the air intakes as taking a short cut over the green bits :p

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Two's in]

As others have alluded to, the downwash from taxying on wheels is considerably less than that required to hover taxy, so you are less likely to cause downwash damage to any nearby aircraft. Hovering and other parked aircraft are not often good stable mates.

[Aesir]

No. It´s not true.

[BTO]

It was for sure poor airmanship, and an expensive one too, the result was all the main rotor blades and tail rotor blade sent for inspection. Maybe next time he will think better on landing that close to a smaller fellow...By the way the heavy helicopter was an Kamov KA32.

[Squeaks]

Sydney (Mascot) Airport is another: they will not allow hover taxiing on the GA apron, wheeled helicopters only in that area.

[2beers]

and it saves the tyres and brakes too

Well, that must be some very expensive tyres and brakes if you compare it to the extra unnecesary airborne time that you put on all the other components of your helicopter, getting them exchanged just a few hours earlier...

We taxi with our wheels on the ground as long as possible, not only for economy but the S92 moves a lot of air, especially airborne.

/2beers

[serf]

Is it Air Taxy now rather than Hover Taxy?

[ShyTorque]

Well, that must be some very expensive tyres and brakes if you compare it to the extra unnecesary airborne time that you put on all the other components of your helicopter, getting them exchanged just a few hours earlier...

If I flew a larger type like the S-92, as per your profile, I might agree about relative cost.

However, on the (smaller) type I fly, where I fly, if I ground taxy at our base airport we're looking up to 10 minutes of rolling time, as opposed to far less airborne time. As the rotor mast is tilted forwards, to avoid going beyond the max allowed ground speed, especially with the nosewheel unlocked for turning, the brakes do need a lot of use and it's easy to cook the pads and discs.

The extra couple of minutes airborne time is insignificant to a brake fire or a burst tyre.

Also, as I said, the pax prefer it.

[iorgasilviubogdan]

Quote:
and it saves the tyres and brakes too
Well, that must be some very expensive tyres and brakes if you compare it to the extra unnecesary airborne time that you put on all the other components of your helicopter, getting them exchanged just a few hours earlier...

We taxi with our wheels on the ground as long as possible, not only for economy but the S92 moves a lot of air, especially airborne.

/2beers

what is the difference between ground taxi and hover taxi to the MGB let's say?
do maintenance care if the MGB was used on the ground or in the air?
also I think you spend much more time on the ground than in the air covering the same distance

[ospreydriver]

serf Is it Air Taxy now rather than Hover Taxy?

I was always taught that "air taxi" was higher and faster than "hover taxi." One might "hover taxi" out of the line, but when cleared direct across a large swatch of airfield, you'd "air taxi."

Also mixed in with this debate is the fact that most wheeled helos are larger aircraft than skid helos. More weight being held up means more lifties blowing down.

As a driver of a particularly windy rotorcraft, I'll always ground taxi when it's sensible.

[mazakari]

what is the difference between ground taxi and hover taxi to the MGB let's say?
do maintenance care if the MGB was used on the ground or in the air?
also I think you spend much more time on the ground than in the air covering the same distance

Not taking into account calendar inspections, the hours between checks /overhaul is counted from when the wheels leave the ground - so hover taxiing will set the clock ticking on all components - because you are airborne.
The flip side to this though, I have seen several wheel brake fires that have caused more damage than just wheels and brakes needing replaced !!
Taxiing with wheels firmly on the ground is a lot safer for all those around you and also keeps the 'hours' down on your components but if you have a long taxi ahead of you (have you ever had to land at Schiphol ??- you can be trundling around for miles !!) it is sometimes best to hover taxi.
Would you want to retract your gear after a long taxi, not knowing how hot your brakes are ???

maz

[budgie2007]

In response to ospreydriver, i trained in the US and now fly in the UK and i believe there is a difference in the meaning of "air taxi" and "hover taxi" between US and UK.

In the US as you say air taxi is normally higher and faster than a hover taxi.

However in the UK, according to CAP 413 the term air taxi is meant to replace hover taxi.

"The term 'AIR TAXI' shall be used when it is necessary for a helicopter to proceed at a slow speed above the surface, normally below 20 knots and in ground effect" (ICAO).

Hope that helps.

[JimL]

The ICAO designations are: air/ground taxi; and air transit. The former is well understood and the latter is:

"intended to permit the movement of the helicopter above the surface, normally at a height of not above 30m (100ft) above ground level and at ground speeds exceeding 20kts."

"Air transit routes, however, require comparatively large amounts of airspace (widths of up to 200m at night), which must be kept clear of all obstacles as well as corresponding areas of ground below them, which must be suitable and of sufficient bearing strength to permit safe emergency landings."

"Air taxi routes are to be selected so as to permit auto-rotative or one-engine-inoperative landings such that, as a minimum requirement, injury to persons on the ground or water, or damage to property are minimized."

Under the ICAO designation, 'air taxi' and 'hover taxi' are synonymous.

Jim

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

most wheeled helos are larger aircraft than skid helos


Got me thinking - what is the largest/heaviest helicopter to have skids? Nothing immediately springs to mind bigger than a Bell 412, but then the little grey cells aren't working so well these days...

[Earl of Rochester]

This might be just a smidgen larger than the 412!

http://66.45.238.155/uploads/photos/8924.jpg

[ospreydriver]

I've been told that the AH-1W is the heaviest skid-configured aircraft in the world. Since the AH-1Z is even bigger, I'd guess that it takes the cake, now.

[Gomer Pylot]

Most of the Bell 214STs had skids, although there were some wheeled versions. Still a few around, I expect.

[fijdor]

That is one of them, but no longer with us, it crashed in the summer of 2008.

Too bad it was a charm to fly.

JD


http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/jacdor/JobMontreal200510081.jpg

[Swamp76]

It was for sure poor airmanship, and an expensive one too, the result was all the main rotor blades and tail rotor blade sent for inspection. Maybe next time he will think better on landing that close to a smaller fellow...By the way the heavy helicopter was an Kamov KA32.


As well, the 350 driver could have tied down his machine. There are many ways to view any incident on a forum like this.

[BTO]

In reply to Swamp76, the AS350 had all the rotor blades tied down, even the tail rotor blades were locked with the pin, as a thunderstorm was aproaching, the problem was the deflexion that the blades had on the way down, they swinged more than 1 meter, and the fuselage was dragedd some centimeters to the side, eyewitness said they though it was going to roll over. But you are right, there are always more than one way to see it...

[ShyTorque]

In that case, the pilot of the heavy needs an attitude re-alignment! ;)