Potential cargo capacity problems

[Eyes only]

Potentially CX will be up with a capacity problem with the freighter fleet.

The current strategy somewhat relies on the 747-8F to replace the 747-BCF capacity being transferred to the Air China/Cathay joint venture.

Boeing is set to soon to formally announce a large delay on the 747-8F due to "near cruise speed structural flutter in the flight test program", see Additonal Delays Cripple Boeing?s Strategy and Finances (http://dlvr.it/4SNS1)

It has been suggested that changing the placement of the inboard engines maybe the only engineering solution available to remedy this flutter issue.

This will put CX is an very difficult position, with more and more freight being sold, we may see a case of other airlines (including the new Air China/Cathay joint venture) flying freight for CX, as CX does not have the aircraft.

This will again put pressure on the pilot group, scope clauses will be challenged, and no doubt interesting time will be ahead for those who are contractually "freighter only”.

As an interesting sideline from this related article 747-8 delay illustrative of program problems (http://dlvr.it/4SLWT)

"The Lufthansa order is understood to have a relationship to Boeing cancellation years ago of its in-flight Internet Connexion service for which Lufthansa was a launch customer and the KAL order is tied up in compensation for late deliveries of the 787 and 747-8F."

[Nullaman]

JAL freighters not a done deal either.

I think you obviously have more insight than you are letting on!

[Neptunus Rex]

Eyes Only
Please expand on 'structural flutter.' Which part of the airframe is affected?

[711]

To all those poor early freighter commanders who can't get used to actually working now after 2 years on 40 block hours:

GET BACK IN LINE AS F/O IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT.

(or enjoy DEL,MUM and ANC in the meantime:}).

[Adolf88]

i am not complaining about india, it has it's pro's and con's.
i know that I rather have a yoga experience in bom (make a note of that) than spending a few hours to the left of you.

[buckaroo bonzai]

And I thought if was the pax FOs who were jumping ship to the 777 fleet because they didn't enjoy the long freighter patterns. Dude, we're used to it. Even our 40 hours block months entailed 12-day patterns in HKG sitting on reserve.

This sour grapes stuff has to really stop. If you didn't go for a command on the freighter that was your choice. Why should you be upset at someone who did? If I recall, I didn't see anyone protesting about wanting to come to the Classic. Hats off to the few guys who did. 711, please feel free to explain here so I don't have to hear about it over Yangon.

By the way, we will be staying in DEL, BOM, ANC and DXB with an FO, so if you're an FO on the 744---get used to it.

PS, please also explain what your comment has to do with this thread?

[Sqwak7700]

Great article Eyes, should be required reading for our short-sighted leaders. It is so sad to see a company like Boeing, which has always been regarded the leading commercial aircraft manufacturer, turned into a second-rate accountant managed fiasco.

When will people learn? You can't let accountants run your business. Costs are not always the priority and a smaller profit with healthier business practices is more important than a huge profit at the expense of destroying your business' foundation.

So sad to see most aviation related industry heading in the same direction... :yuk:

[sisyphos]

easy solution if china air cargo gets the planes: temporary commuter rosters to Shanghai.

[geh065]

If they are that desperate for freight capacity then it should be easy to take the JAL freighters. I am sure there is a compensation clause in the contract with Boeing over the 748F; enough to pay for wet-leases anyway...not that it helps the command situation.

[LandingCheckComplete]

From a purely selfish point of view, the company should not have binned the Classic fleet so quickly last year.

[711]

Buckaroo,

I have absolutely no problem with early freighter commanders, the company offered the option to everybody, fair enough.

However, it was pretty clear what to expect, what kind of lifestyle, rosters etc.
I have absolutely no sympathy for some of them , who suddenly start a "discussion" about combined pax/freighter flying. This is a ruthless,despicable and selfish attempt to jump the line, absolutely unacceptable.

[buckaroo bonzai]

711

Fair enough. When these guys "discuss" combined pax/freighter flying (and pay) it merely wishful thinking. As far as being a "ruthless,despicable and selfish attempt to jump the line", well I'd say that if the company decides to offer that it would be due to need/demand. That being said, since freighter captains are by definition already captains, they are not taking any of your slots away.

Again, I sense perhaps a bit of sour grapes. Example: FO "A" signs a contract on B scale (or UFO scale) and therefore has a set pay scale for his career plannning. During "A"'s progression he has the chance to apply for a frtr command but chooses to remain flying pax. FO "B" does apply, passes the course and is also aware of his pay scale for the remainder of his career. Suddenly, the market changes and the company decides to "upgrade" the frtr cpts to B scale. Why would FO "A" be upset? Because it's not fair? Well, his contract wasn't diminished in any way.

Simplified version: A construction site puts up a sign offering work for 10 men starting at 0800 the following morning. The next morning 50 guys show up and the foreman selects 10 and offers them 100 dollars to work until 1700. They accept. At 1100 the foreman realizes that he needs 5 more men to complete the job. If he doesn't complete the job his company will have to pay a hefty late penalty. So he then goes out in the street and starts searching for workers. It's difficult because the other 40 men have since left looking for work elsewhere. The foreman finally finds 5 guys and offers them 100 dollars to work until 1700. They accept. Should the first 10 guys be upset because they have to work 3 hours more to gain the same 100 dollars? That's what they signed up for.


See my point?

[The Messiah]

I do have a problem with early freighter commanders who accepted the crap conditions and helped drag it down for all of us.

[buckaroo bonzai]

T.M.

Please explain: "who accepted the crap conditions and helped drag it down for all of us."

1. what were the "crap conditions"? Kept base and improved pay.

2. How did frtr cpts "drag" anything down for you? Did your contract suddenly change?

Enlighten me.

[freightdoggiedog]

I do have a problem with early freighter commanders who accepted the crap conditions and helped drag it down for all of us.


So I assume you were hired on A-Scale? Or is it that different somehow?

United we stand, divided we fall, and by God pilots just love to divide themselves like small bickering children... while management chuckle all the way to the bank.

:ugh:

[fly123456]

T.M.

Please explain: "who accepted the crap conditions and helped drag it down for all of us."

1. what were the "crap conditions"? Kept base and improved pay.

2. How did frtr cpts "drag" anything down for you? Did your contract suddenly change?

Enlighten me.

Simple really.

Let me break the seniority list like this, prior freighter command offered:
A-TOP 100: b-scale capt.
B-MID 100: b-scale F/O
C-LAST 100: b-scale F/O

Now we have:

A: 100 B-scale capt. flying pax and freighter
most of B and some C: 100 b-scale F/O's
most of C and some B: 100 Freight-scale capt. flying 100% freighter for 30% less money than A

We could have had:

A and B: 200 B-scale capt. on 100% the money
C: 100 B-scale F/O

The ones taking a freighter command have effectively dragged the conditions down for the rest of the F/O's senior to them.

[The Messiah]

See above, it's not rocket science.

[freightdoggiedog]

So Messiah and Fly123456, you must both be

- A-scalers, or else

- not know the meaning of the word "hypocrite", and/or

- have a bad case of sour grapes?

[The Messiah]

No just never understood why someone would accept the same position (ie. Captain) for less money that's all.

[freightdoggiedog]

They accepted the position for MORE money than they had been making previously (as F-scale or even based B-scale FOs), not to mention the advantage of starting on CN payscale increment 1 far earlier; a no-brainer really, if they wanted to stay on a base and didn't plan to take advantage of HKG housing.

Much as you presumably accepted a B-scale (or F-scale if you joined as a DEFO) because it was better than whatever you had previously, even if this way you were (from the point of view of your A-scale predecessors) accepting "crap conditions and helped drag it down for all of us".

The point is that the company has successfully played this game for years: the senior guys on "superior" conditions let it happen due to I'm-all-right-Jackitis, then when a few years later they find themselves in a minority they take it out on their junior colleagues for accepting "crap conditions and helping drag it down for all of us", instead of realizing that they have been outfoxed by management again.

Newsflash: it's happening again with housing. So, are we going to sit here and throw cr@p at each other or are we going to try and stop lower conditions being offered to junior crew this time?

Like you say, it's not rocket science, but I'm not holding my breath.

[hongkongpilot]

We could have had:

A and B: 200 B-scale capt. on 100% the money
C: 100 B-scale F/O

The ones taking a freighter command have effectively dragged the conditions down for the rest of the F/O's senior to them.

If C's don't take freighter command, there always are D's with +10k hours experience coming to join as DEC. How did ASL start ?

[buckaroo bonzai]

Dear Fly+numerous & T.M.,

Again I ask you to enlighten me on how someone taking a frtr command degraded in any way YOUR contract.

Please cease with the encrypted notes and actually show us where YOUR contract was thus infringed upon, not the contracts of subsequent FOs.

Also, note well Freight Dog+'s remarks about STOPPING any new pay scales. If you were here, why didn't you protest about early freight commands (other than the occasional rant in the gay bar)? I don't recall seeing or hearing of any AOA or other guidance on non-acceptance.

PS: take it easy boys, this is not a critical issue and still has nothing to do with the original post/thread as I mentioned earlier.

[The Messiah]

Of course you can blame the guys who took the commands out of seniority. I can and I do. They did nothing to improve their own or anybody elses situation. Yes they were earning more than an F/O but they were now Captains. Their salary compared to F/O was now irrelevant.

These people have no regard for seniority, when it suits them of course, yet are often the most vocal when it comes to violation of COS. Fark off I say.

How about the early freighter Captain who operated into Dubai and then refused to PX on the freighter back to HKG? Really??? Violation of his COS he said! What a tosser!!

Early freighter commands were agreed by the AOA, so what, so were G-Day call out fees but there are plenty of out-of-seniority freighter Captains who don't agree with guys doing that.

[Liam Gallagher]

Whilst I normally enjoy your posts I shall call "BS" on your most recent post.

In the mid to late 90's the company was most determined to establish a separate Freighter cadre and pay them accordingly. Directly resultant of the dispute of 1999, it was agreed that the Freighter slots would be "integrated" into the mainline operation, however on Freighter pay. The only alternative offered by the company was that the Freighter operation would have remained crewed by ASL and remain wholly separate from the mainline crewing operation. The company never, but never, put the option to the AOA of sacking all the ASL pilots and returning the crewing of the Freighters to "mainline" crews only.

If you somehow construe that to mean the AOA started "early freighter commands" and that the AOA (not the company) laid down this career path you have an odd view of history and I suggest you consider this;

"Would we as pilot group now be better off if the Freighters had remained crewed by pilots employed by a company, or companies, other than CX/Veta, with not only separate contracts, but separate recruiting, base structures, C&T and indeed promotion structures?"

[4 driver]

I believe there will be no more "Freighter Commands", ie. Commands on reduced conditions of service.
This is a win for us....one of the few over the last decade.
What happens if the company offers CN bases in freighter only ports is interesting however....

[freightdoggiedog]

Of course you can blame the guys who took the commands out of seniority. I can and I do.

Messiah, you seem a little stuck in your little rut there, unable/unwilling to listen to reason? Sorry but you come across as definite sour grapes.

Once more, the guys who exercised that privilege did nothing worse than you did by accepting B-scale. You improved your own situation by accepting the job in CX at inferior conditions to those enjoyed by your predecessors, did you not?

Moreover, it is disingenuous to say freighter commands taken by CX F/Os were "out of seniority", as these commands were offered to everyone on the CX seniority list (down to the last S/O), and awarded to those who raised their hand (and managed to jump through the hoops) in seniority order.

If you were too lazy/short-sighted (or afraid of the classic) to go for it when it was offered, too bad for you, don't harass those who did. The opportuntiy was offered to you too. Get over it.

Now, the question is: are we going to let the company divide and conquer us once more by offering new pilots no housing?

[The Messiah]

Accepting a job from an entirely different world is hardly the same as accepting a reduction in your conditions once you are in it, in effect accepting less pay than the other guys doing exactly the same job. As far as I'm concerned you can't pick and choose which COS violations are ok and which ones aren't, it's all or nothing.

Further if freighter commands were so right why are they now finished? The evidence does not support your attempts to justify the queue jumpers actions.

[treboryelk]

and not going for a freighter command is not being too lazy or too short sighted.....it is just an appreciation of what a ****e job it is. Get over it? The whining freigher captains who think they should be on B scales or treated specially for taking the job in the first place could well HTFU, get over it and enjoy the job they chose to take....for many a year to come!

[buckaroo bonzai]

First (AGAIN), what does this "discussion" on frtr commands have to do with this thread? T.M., you have not addressed the reason you started this in a thread that has nothing to do with frtr captains.

Second, whining frtr cpts? Where? Who? All I see, as evidenced by your post Treboryelk, are whining FOs. Why is being a Frtr Cpt a "****e job"? Are, therefore, the FOs who fly both pax and frtrs also working a "****e job"?

Third, T.M., enlighten me (please), why someone should accept pxing on the freighter when there is a passenger flight going to the same destination? I honestly find it hard to believe that you care about this and that you lose sleep over it.

[fly123456]

And the freighter captains taking a Hong Kong base without housing are certainly not driving our conditions down... just yet.

[buckaroo bonzai]

Frtr cpts with HKG base were/are ex-Oasis direct entry etc. They do have a housing allowance albeit at a reduce rate. Here I would agree with you that allowing this contract may have adverse affects on our future COS. As I agree we shouldn't allow any further degradation of existing COS and allowances.

[freightdoggiedog]

Fly12345 I will grant you that guys volunteering for freight CN in HK with no housing are a different story, but I suspect most are not volunteers, rather guys who had left for Oasis and were then offered a take-it-or-leave-it by the company (kick'em when they're down). Freighter captains on a base, though, different story: makes perfect sense if you don't want to come to HKG.

Trebor: personally I haven't heard a freighter captain complain yet... actually over the last couple of years I think they have had the best rosters in the airline. As Buckaroo says, it sounds like it's you and a few whiney F/Os who didn't take the opportunity THAT YOU HAD TOO who need a little hardening...

And Messiah, once again they are making MORE money than they were previously (F-scale captain is more than B-scale F/O, at least on a base), just as you started making more money than you were in your previous job when you accepted B-scale (but no, no, that's different, of course you would never accept lower conditions than other people for doing the same job -um, er- except you plainly did.)

Matter of fact in hindsight, I sort of wish I had gone for it: between the crisis, Oasis, KA, 3-man ULH and age 65 I won't get a crack at it for years, and thanks to the company slashing FACA unilaterally I have to fly freighters anyway.

If you find yourself getting left-seat envy (it's only human), just remind yourself, as I do, that you had the same opportunity but chose a different path, one where good 'ole CX will end up buying you one or more houses... pretty good deal IMHO.

It really gets up my nose when instead of concentrating on who the real adversary is, pilots moan and complain enviously about their colleagues and their perceived advantages (B vs. A scalers, pax vs. freight, based vs. HKG, now expat vs. LEP). I hang my head in shame at the thought of management gleefully reading threads like this and realizing what a bunch of immature children we are.

[buckaroo bonzai]

Here's a new slant (just to antagonize the troops),

why don't we ask CX to divi up profit sharing based on pax or freight. Would you PAX only guys object to that?

[iceman50]

buckaroo bonzai

You obviously have NO idea as to how much freight is carried in the belly of PAX aircraft!!:rolleyes:

[Near Miss]

Or in the cabin of a PAX aircraft for that matter. It is just a little easier (mostly) to load and unload. :E

[The Messiah]

And Messiah, once again they are making MORE money than they were previously (F-scale captain is more than B-scale F/O, at least on a base), just as you started making more money than you were in your previous job when you accepted B-scale (but no, no, that's different, of course you would never accept lower conditions than other people for doing the same job -um, er- except you plainly did.)
Guys joining on B scale had no idea different scales even existed when they joined. There was only B scale available. Freighter commanders however did have options, wait your turn on full conditions or accept less. They are clearly the ones who had left seat envy, I only have pay packet envy, the number of stripes is of no concern. Freighter commanders accepted lesser conditions for the same job within the company they were already working for, it is not the same at all. We are not talking about taking a new job, they were already here and knew exactly the situation.

[711]

I have an idea!!!!!!!

This is really great, I think this could actually work!!!

Why not find some sort of date-entry based system, in order to avoid too competitive behaviour/mobbing by certain individuals, and at the same time preserve a culture of respect and safety in the cockpit.

We could call it : S E N i O R I T Y - L I S T !

[buckaroo bonzai]

T.M.


Again incorrect. Frtr guys who joined on the frtr scale (again a lesser scale than B scale) knew before they joined (or as they joined) that there was the possibility to go for an early command on frtr salary. Hence, the reason many of them actually joined. i.e. planning to attempt the command course on the frtr. This also allowed them to hold their base (quite an important item after the raise of retirement age to 65). Plus, again, it isn't necessarily left seat envy as you call it but surely pay packet envy as (again to hopefully help you understand) the pay is more than pax FO. Please do the math dude.

And if you joined on B scale but didn't actually know it was a "scale" lesser than A scale, then I would suggest you should have done more homework.

Point is, guys join a company because it is better than where they were working before. And there was no longer an IFALPA hiring ban after 2003 or 2004 to say "hey wait a minute maybe I shouldn't accept this lower pay scale". It was the only way to join as a DEFO, as it currently is today with the UFO pay scale.

PS: are you ever going to explain why you started this discussion on this thread? guess not.

[The Messiah]

buckaroo I am talking about guys from the pax fleet who jumped over for an early command. Guys who joined on the freighter is another discussion entirely.

Guys keep talking about joining on B scale as if there was another option. "A" scale was long gone before I joined and talking to the original "A" scalers they all agree that it was never going to be around after '97 and the changeover. Times change, it was likely inevitable really but once again that's another discussion.

BTW it was freightdog who came up with "left seat envy", I was just using it back at him.

As for why I started this discussion? Because I felt like it.

You said, "why don't we ask CX to divi up profit sharing based on pax or freight". FYI the majority of freight profit is made from the freight carried in the belly of pax aircraft, but who cares?

[Ex Cathedra]

It doesn't matter what the thread topic is about, it seems that on this board the resulting argument will always be the same.

We're theatrically fighting behind a veil of anonymity like barking dogs behind closed fences.

Anyhow, back (slightly) to the original topic.

The first CX bird is out of the paint shop, with a 'special' livery:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/39878/phpstTKeM.jpeg


Now to see whether they manage to sort it out.

But then it could be CX's opportunity to whine for some delay compensations, since they missed those given to A380 and 787 customers.
'Howzabout a couple a free 300ERs for the trouble Mr. Tyler, with our compliments...'

[freightdoggiedog]

Guys joining on B scale had no idea different scales even existed when they joined.

Yeah right, and age 65 will decrease time to command!!!

Anyway, in the words of our managers, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. If it's pay-packet envy rather left-seat envy driving you to complain, then once again you should have applied for it yourself: remember, this was a fairly transparent option to F/Os in CX for the last ten years, fully AOA-endorsed and advertised widely during the DEFO selection process. Just another career avenue available with CX, and as BB says, many guys joined precisely because that avenue was available.

If instead you live in HK and get housing, then there's no need to be envious because your package is far better!

Now, to try and get back on topic: does anyone else see the joint venture with AC (together with the attack on housing) as the next big threat to our jobs?

[buckaroo bonzai]

back after a hiatus; forgot to mention that even though pax a/c carry much freight it's not CAO freight. That's where the real money is boys. Should we discuss the UPS incident??

Ready for more enlightening responses....