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SmilingKnifed
30th Aug 2010, 23:11
Folks, bit of a bizarre one and I wonder if anyone's seen it before...

Whilst cruising at FL230 over northern Greece (overhead KVA) the flightdeck was bathed in green light. Having pulled down the glare visor I was able to see a ground based laser pointing at the aircraft (the captain independently verified this). Has anyone suffered a laser nuisance at a level such as this before?! I'm at a loss to explain how the guy was 1. Able to aim it with such accuracy for 10 secs 2. Even own a laser with the power to reach 4 miles up!

A check has shown no laser light shows taking place in the area and I can't think of another explanation.

As an aside, laser attacks seem to becoming increasingly common in this part of the world (ATH FIR). I seem to average 2 a day when on later shifts (lased at both JMK and ATH this evening).

Wish we had some sort of rudimentary LGB :E

P.S. No idea why prune substitutes an @ symbol in the word laser.

mike-wsm
30th Aug 2010, 23:21
Could it be this one (http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/tracker.shtml)?

SmilingKnifed
30th Aug 2010, 23:26
You have got to be kidding me!

What kind of idiot?...

Capetonian
30th Aug 2010, 23:27
Please tell me this (link above) is a joke ..... a very sick one ....

# Arrives with a voucher you can redeem to get 5% off your first fine of $25,000 or greater!

mike-wsm
30th Aug 2010, 23:51
Laser pointer forum (http://laserpointerforums.com/f53/lasers-aircraft-52672.html).

Superpilot
31st Aug 2010, 04:03
Stop worrying about things like mandatory jail time and social isolation and play the intriguing game of SkyTag™ today.

Oh my.....

IRRenewal
31st Aug 2010, 06:20
Chaps, do a bit of research. This SkyTag thing was a 2005 April Fool's joke.

rottenray
31st Aug 2010, 06:58
Smiling Knife writes:
1. Able to aim it with such accuracy for 10 secs 2. Even own a l@ser with the power to reach 4 miles up!
Aiming is the interesting part - that takes some skill and the wish to hit an aircraft at cruise altitude.

FWIW, I own a laser which is rated at 1/3 watt. I bought it from an industrial recycling company which sells a lot of old industrial salvage.

Also FWIW, I have never pointed this laser at anything other than an object at ground level within 100 to 200 feet. It is intense - any reflective mineral sends magnificent sprays of light up, and I'm sure that if I played with this a lot it could cause serious "disturbances" even though I don't point it level or above the horizon.

I keep it as a curio - shining it on a piece of black velvet when I have guests over is a sure-fire conversation starter, because it is powerful enough to reflect off the velvet and put on a stunning light show.


IRRenewal writes:
This SkyTag thing was a 2005 April Fool's joke.Yes, it was, and I laughed my a$$ off.

But there are still fools out there targeting aircraft with lasers, and I don't think they understand just how damn dangerous it is.


Hopefully you were able to give enough information to help track down the irresponsible a$$hole who lit your flight deck.


Aside from the problems such idiots cause you, they cause me problems. As somewhat a home experimenter, I enjoy having the liberty of being able to purchase such items for my own safe and responsible enjoyment. The cretins who target aircraft do nothing more than make it harder for folks like me to pursue hobbies.


RR

edit - corrected stupidity and added last paragraph

CorradoT
31st Aug 2010, 08:06
From a geeks forum: "Pointing lasers into the sky and outside in general is one of the best ways to show off and have fun with them after it gets boring burning stuff with it. If done safely it's harmless and great fun. Any pilot who would get distracted just by seeing a beam pointing into the sky and crash probably shouldn't be flying to begin with."

What about T/O and Landings in night?

Oh, my... too

lasernigel
31st Aug 2010, 09:01
I've worked on lasers for 32 years now.
I admit before a few years ago I dismissed most of these scares as the lasers available would not hurt the eye at any distance.
However things are now getting out of hand. I think it is time that all governments around the world brought in legislation, against the selling of lasers with a power greater than 5mW, to members of the public without a license.
There is no need whatsoever for people to have these devices to "play" with.

OPENDOOR
31st Aug 2010, 10:20
Any laser with a power in excess of 5mW should be classed as a weapon. Even possession should carry similar penalties.
How long before some psychopath gets hold of one of these; PowerLabs CO2 burning Laser! (http://www.powerlabs.org/laser.htm)
Write to your MP Contacting your MP - UK Parliament (http://www.parliament.uk/about/contacting/mp/) Demand legislation.

jtt
31st Aug 2010, 13:56
Could that have been a LIDAR experiment and getting "hit" was just bad luck? As far as I know you need to get a permission before you do that kind of stuff, but then at the physics institute I was working at they did these experiments (with obviously rather powerful lasers, no way to overlook the bright beam from half a km away even though it was pointed up) very near to the flight path of planes coming in to THF, which was less then 10 km (6 miles) away.

subsonicsubic
31st Aug 2010, 14:09
Look. I'm sorry. I've been barred in a previous life for questioning the "real" danger from these light sources to the "percieved" danger.

I fly GA. Thats all. I don"t have an inflated ego.

I welcome and invite anyone to submit a real life experience where laser light put them in harms way....Let me classify that...we all often fly in less than perfect conditions...into the sun/ fog/ haze etc.

I want specifics...or don't bother whinging here.

I am happy to be burnt alive at the stake. But pls. back up these allegations with REAL opperational concerns.

Best,

SSS

wiggy
31st Aug 2010, 16:34
we all often fly in less than perfect conditions...into the sun/ fog/ haze etc


Agreed, and these are predictable "hazards", caused by nature, that can be dealt with by the use of autopilot, ATC services, sunglasses and the like.

back up these allegations with REAL opperational concerns.
(sic.)

Well how about a simple operational concern such as the consequences of both pilots temporarily being blinded on finals whilst hand flying the aircraft for a manual landing?

PaperTiger
31st Aug 2010, 17:00
I welcome and invite anyone to submit a real life experience where laser light put them in harms way
Strait of Juan de Fuca laser incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Juan_de_Fuca_laser_incident)

And if you don't trust wikipedia just google it. It happened.

Flap40
31st Aug 2010, 18:17
One that got caught.

Jail for man who shone laser at police helicopter (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/5045174.Jail_for_man_who_shone_laser_at_police_helicopter/)

What the article does not mention is that shortly before this incident the accused had shone the laser at an airliner, hence the presence of the helicopter.

andy148
31st Aug 2010, 18:58
Twoonefour;
If you take the average beam divergence of a laser powerful enough to cause serious concern to an airliner at 23000ft, and shining directly into the cockpit which would give a slant range. You could easily consider a beam divergence of 0.3m per km (focussing the beam dependant)!!
You would have a beam divergence roughly 6.8ft in diameter or enough to fill the cockpit in visible laser light.

Sir George Cayley
31st Aug 2010, 19:48
There is a Govt agency in the UK that can take any laser and rate its ability to harm. They can then issue an 'eye safe' report if it passes.

This agency is called the HPA (Health Protection Agency :ok:

Errr isn't that one of the QUANGOs due to get the chop? :=

As an aside, what the pointer brothers don't get is that pilots can't tell if any laser shone at them is eye safe or not. So apart from 'dangerous, distracting or confusing' they have to assume "blinding" which might end their career.

If I ruled the world, the punishment would involve their laser and their eyes.

Sir George Cayley

dwshimoda
31st Aug 2010, 19:55
Not to belittle the concerns, but I don't think Chinese military l@ser weapons are the sort of thing openly available to chavs living under Manchester flight corridors.

Are you a pilot? I doubt it. Do you hand fly approaches in anything serious? With hundreds of lives behind you? At night? Do you actually understand what these idiots firing lasers at us could potentially do?

Edited to add: I fly from Manchester. I have not been targeted but several of my colleagues have. This is not a joking matter about Chinese Mil lasers - lasers capable of blinding and causing untold carnage are available on the net / ebay for less than £100.

Floppy Link
31st Aug 2010, 23:05
Well how about a simple operational concern such as the consequences of both pilots temporarily being blinded on finals whilst hand flying the aircraft for a manual landing?

Or the only pilot. It's getting towards the start of laser season again, and I'm not looking forward to it.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc264/Boecopter/LP.jpg

wiggy
31st Aug 2010, 23:08
Or the only pilot.

Oops, of course, my mistake.

Best wishes.

Piper_Driver
1st Sep 2010, 15:21
They caught one bozo in the act at Orly. One :mad: idiot off the streets.
Man arrested for trying to dazzle pilots with laser - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100831/od_nm/us_france_airport)

OFSO
1st Sep 2010, 20:02
My house is at 600' ASL facing south towards St Margarida, 4kms away right on the coast. Abut five minutes ago I was zapped with a green laser from that locality. I'm only glad I was stationary on my terrace and not in transit in a plane or car. Just hope the :mad: who pointed the laser at our urbanisation keeps it away from aircraft.

OFSO, 1.09.2010, 22:00 local.

CraigyD
1st Sep 2010, 20:15
A few weeks ago, on final approach into Nice at night, some **** was shinning a green laser at our aircraft. It was seen by both pilots and myself, No.2 cabin crew at the rear of the aircraft. It was extremely bright. The Gendarme said they have been getting a lot of reports recently.

gusting_45
1st Sep 2010, 23:35
Watch out if your flying into Nap at night, a very regular occurence.

BigHitDH
2nd Sep 2010, 22:10
Sounds like an opportunity for a precision laser-guided strike to me. :}

BHDH

BrATCO
2nd Sep 2010, 22:31
They caught one bozo in the act at Orly. One http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif idiot off the streets.
Bozo (22 y old) was given a suspended prison sentence of 6 months yesterday.
Police have created a "task force" to hunt laser gunners.(seen on the news this afternoon, French TV)

clark y
3rd Sep 2010, 00:08
In Australia the ATISes (not sure what the plural for ATIS is) has laser warnings on a semi-regular basis. Generally on weekends. Surprise surprise.
In the state of South Australia, hand held laser pointers with a power level of greater than 1mW, yes that is one milliwatt, are considered prohibited weapons. I was shown a 10mW pointer in a telescope store. It was only about as big as a fountain pen. (you can still get them if you have a legitimate purpose-but your purchase and details go on record).

Slickster
3rd Sep 2010, 00:28
I've been zapped, flying into MRS, as was the FO. All this talk of "permanent damage" to the eye is irrelevant. For a start we have no idea whether it will be or not, and we are not merely concerned with the damage to our eyes, but the distraction, temporary blindness etc. caused by such pillocks - that tends to be our priority.

I hope the book gets thrown at them all - "pour encourager les autres". Idiots. Unfortunately, the more we talk about the problem, the more we encourage these disparate sad gits, with nothing better to do to carry on.

Funny how quick pistols were banned though, because of one loony.........

lynn789
3rd Sep 2010, 00:38
would glasses with some sort of mirror finish reflect the laser light before it got to the eyes

rottenray
3rd Sep 2010, 08:10
LaserNigel writes:
There is no need whatsoever for people to have these devices to "play" with.If you had written "idiots" instead of "people" I might have agreed at least in part. But I'm getting very sick of "people" like you who want to limit my right to own something non-lethal and mostly harmless because of the actions of other "people" who have no more sense than a bedbug.

If the idiots keep setting the bar lower and lower, and reactionary folks like you keep calling for more and more restrictions, the hobby industry - all parts of it, save for things like collecting stamps - will die.



Opendoor writes;
Any l@ser with a power in excess of 5mW should be classed as a weapon.No.

Frankly, units in "moderate" excess of this power don't cause direct damage - to eyes, property, or - generally - the well-being of others.

What we are discussing here is not necessarily the power rating but the miss-use.

Many years ago, I purchased a lab-grade laser with a rating of 345mW from an industrial surplus company.

It has never been pointed positive/up with respect to level ground.

I have used it to help contractors level roads, and I have used it to impress friends on 4th of July and New Year's Eve by pointing it downward into piles of shattered glass, misting sprinkler heads, and so forth - but it has never been pointed "up" and I would certainly NEVER aim it into the sky above.

Yet you want to take this away from me or class it as a weapon.

There is a word for people who think like this, but you can google it on your own time.


subsonic writes:
Look. I'm sorry. I've been barred in a previous life for questioning the "real" danger from these light sources to the "percieved" danger.
There is a REAL danger. The multi-layer windows in modern cockpits can spread a beam widely and cause temporary blindness.

Will it always cause a crash?

No.

But a person on the ground has no idea of what is happening on the flight deck of an aircraft he/she accidentally or on purpose illuminates.

And doing so will certainly add to the workload of the pilots.

The idiots posting in other forums on other sites who claim that illuminating an aircraft is harmless fun - and those posting such crap as "pilots who crash because of the distraction shouldn't be pilots in the first place" - are the ones who need to be caught in the act and charged with interfering with public transit.

In this country (US) there is a stout fine ($160k or more) as well as prison time (up to 7 years) and what is needed is more enforcement.


Also, more public education is needed. Obviously, many folks don't think far enough to understand that such illumination can increase the workload of a pilot - perhaps at just the wrong time. I've seen the effect of an office-grade consumer laser-pointer on the cockpit window of light aircraft safely sitting on the ground, and simply illuminating the plexiglass - with all its flaws and built-in prismatic effects - is quite a sight to see.

The effect is what I'll call "sparkly" and it dances across your vision. It actually looks a lot like a lightning strike at very close range.


But calling for a complete ban is horrible, and infringes upon the rights of people who do obey the law and who do use common sense.


This is yet another case of idiots turning a harmless item into an extreme annoyance - or a danger - followed by a knee-jerk reaction by those affected.


I can't really blame pilots for wanting a ban. But as a professional group I would hope they understand that it is not the l@ser, but the person aiming it, who causes the problem.

After all, this same professional group expects the "nimby" folks to understand all the ins and outs and benefits of air transport, and expects them to appreciate the sonic qualities of large (or noisy) aircraft.

Hypocrisy, for lack of a better term. "I can impinge on you, but you'd better not even be able to own anything you can impinge upon me with."

I know, I know... Apples to grapefruit. But you'd better take the high ground here, because the snot-nosed punks who are pointing devices at your planes will most likely lawyer-up and simply waste your company's money.


Real vs. perceived...

The safety of air transit as we know it is written in blood. The airline industry is famous for operating at the edge of the envelop to increase the value of their product. Flying boats, the Shorts and the Boeings. DC-3s. Lockheed Electras. Early jets, the Comet and the 707, both of which claimed their fair share.

There is a real danger, and it needs to be addressed, but it shouldn't be addressed in a way where simple abuse dictates. The idiots using lasers on planes will simply find a new way to be a dangerous pain in the arse.


RR

olympus
3rd Sep 2010, 13:05
Why is laser always written as l@ser?

[edit] the pprune BB software converts the 'a' to '@'. But why???

md80fanatic
3rd Sep 2010, 13:13
Because the whole word -l a s e r- will prompt the adbot to display ads that promote l@sers on this website.

olympus
3rd Sep 2010, 13:33
Ah, I see. Thanks for that MD80.

Academic in my case as there are no ads on my version of pprune thanks to Adblock Plus!!

MagnusP
3rd Sep 2010, 13:34
Just for info, the coherent light thingies* used in astronomical multiconjugate adaptive optics are used to excite the sodium layer about 90km up in the atmosphere to create artificial guide stars. At that point, I believe the beam is about 1 metre in diameter.

*to avoid getting nobbled by the software.

Ex Cargo Clown
3rd Sep 2010, 13:43
Can one of the pro-l@ser lobby please tell me exactly why the general public should need access to a >1mW device?

At or below that power they are perfectly usable as a pointing device, probably their only useful purpose.

For those who say they like powerful l@sers to show off to friends, I'm sure I would like to show my friends a serviceable MANPAD, but oddly enough I'm prohibited from doing so. I'm also in a position whereby I have open and legitimate access to all manner of pyrotechnic, chemical nasties and wonders, do I bring those home to show off to friends? No. All sounds a bit like "small man syndrome" to me. " Look at my monster 350mW device etc....

Just ban >1mW devices, simple.

Wee Weasley Welshman
3rd Sep 2010, 14:04
I was laser attacked three weeks ago on the intercept to the LOC at 3,800ft at midnight in England.

As PF I was forced to hand control to the FO and had a residual after image all the way down the approach. The initial flash made me wince, it hurt and I swore. I spent the next morning having photographs of my retina being taken. I spent most of the night before worried sick that my eyesight had been damaged and that my medical could be withdrawn.

I was suprised at how bright the laser was.

I was incapacitated, no doubt of it.

I think lasers have the ability to cause a loss of control if they hit both pilots.

I think the sentence for those convicted should not be prison. It should be to have the device they used shone for a minute into each of their own eyes whilst strapped to a table with their eyelids pinned open. I strongly suspect incidents would diminish dramatically after the first, televised, conviction.


If you want to play with something go and get a firearm and leave dangerous novelties like lasers alone.

WWW

Rollingthunder
3rd Sep 2010, 17:25
Some people have babies without brains and never grow up.

lasernigel
4th Sep 2010, 20:59
Rottenray having worked with lasers since 1978 I think I have maybe a smidge of experience. Yes by all means if you need a laser more powerful than 5mW for work etc, fine but why not licence or register them to the buyer?

to own something non-lethal and mostly harmless

345mW is definitely NOT harmless no matter what you use it for. To use the word harmless and 345mW in the same breath, shows that you have a very glib and complete non understanding of laser safety.:sad:

rottenray
5th Sep 2010, 05:34
Lasernigel writes:
To use the word harmless and 345mW in the same breath
Sir, I have a very good idea of how powerful a laser of that rating is; I was referring to the consumer units which are 1/100 as powerful at best.

The one I own is not anywhere near "harmless," no matter how you try to spin the word. But it is not used to show off by making pretty patterns in fog, or trying to light the bottoms of clouds, or aimed in anything but a carefully controlled manner.

I'm actually mostly on your side - I find it inexcusable when idiots point even very low powered devices at potential targets they can (or can't) see, and I'm for slapping serious fines on folks who miss-use or abuse laser pens, et cetera.

But, I want you to know that THOSE are the folks you have your grief with, not responsible people like myself - and I do not appreciate being lumped in to the same stupid category.


This thread, like all the others, is quickly turning into the same old ghetto of knee-jerk reactions put forth by those who feel that they have the right to legislate what everyone else can own.

So far, nothing noteworthy has been said regarding how to educate the masses, and nothing noteworthy has been put forth regarding better reporting of laser illuminations.

Instead, same old "ban it" mentality.

Honestly, I'd think smart men could come up with something much better - but I might be wrong.


?

rottenray
5th Sep 2010, 05:41
Clown writes:

Can one of the pro-l@ser lobby please tell me exactly why the general public should need access to a >1mW device?

I don't consider myself "pro-laser," but I simply resent that you're so happy to limit what I can own.

Folks like you are re-designing the world for the lowest common denominator (look it up yourself) and as that continues, you will have to "outlaw" more and more things as people find ways to abuse them.


You should be ranting and working for better enforcement, not more restrictions on things a hobbyist can own.


Once in a while, I can hear planes pass overhead - I guess I should join the rest of the NIMBYs and get that damn airport closed, right?


?

P-T
5th Sep 2010, 10:41
Rotten Ray,

Typically American answer.

Surely you have to agree not everyone is as responsible as you or any other aviation enthusiast on PPRUNE may be.

Surely you can agree that having access to "dangerous" equipment can cause problems if you have less then average intelligence.

Your gun laws are a legacy of years gone past and as such you have a huge amount of gun crime. If you're a respectable human being and you have a legitimate reason for owning a l@ser then the licensing authorities will grant you access.

If the attitude of "what gives you the right to limit what I own" is ridiculous, next you'll be saying, "I'd like to have a couple of Nukes in my backyard, just because I can".

Get a grip, lasers pose a significant risk and are becoming more common.

I was over Germany at FL370 last week and RYR aircraft were reporting laser light at the same altitude. I saw the source but wasn't directly targeted. I too was a bit surprised at the ability to target at 6 miles away, people are clearly getting hold of pieces of kit that you don't find on key rings or white board pointers.

It is a problem, there needs to be a solution.

As for your pathetic justification or comparison about hearing aircraft above and closing an airfield. Is this going to kill you and hundreds of people sitting in the seats behind you? How would you like it if all of a sudden the pilots on a flight you were sitting on were suddenly incapacitated by a laser from the ground? would your laissez faire (look it up!) attitude sit so comfortably then?

And as for the lowest common denominator, well that is the safest way forward in my opinion. If you can prove your ability, responsibility and need to own equipment that can cause issues then why not stop the idiots getting hold of it?

Ex Cargo Clown
5th Sep 2010, 23:50
I do love the beautiful irony of a yank spouting nonsense about how people should have freedom to own whatever they wish to have, being in a country that attempts to deny foreign powers from owning nuclear weapons.

Nobody needs anything over a 1-5mW l@ser, unless for a professional reason.

If it is your hobby that is impacted for the sake of saving 200 innocent pax then tough luck, find a new, safer hobby.

AnthonyGA
6th Sep 2010, 01:02
Nobody needs anything over a 1-5mW l@ser, unless for a professional reason.Nobody needs a pilot's license, unless for a professional reason. Be careful what you wish for.

The solution is not to restrict the sale of lasers, since they have many legitimate uses. The solution is to make the penalty for aiming lasers at aircraft so severe and so guaranteed that people will refrain from doing it. A six-month suspended sentence won't suffice. A two-year or five-year prison sentence without parole would work pretty well.

Licensing of lasers that are dangerously powerful also makes sense, as long as this is not used as an excuse to artificially restrict their availability.

The American philosophy in many ways is to allow everything, except that which is forbidden. The European philosophy is increasingly to forbid everything, except that which is allowed.

Anyway, make the penalties severe enough, and actively track down and prosecute the perpetrators, and the laser incidents will go away. There are lots of guns in the world, but people don't fire guns at cars on the highway because they know they will go to jail for a long time for doing so. If they also know that they will go to jail for a long time for aiming lasers at airplanes, they'll stop doing it.

Some people can be stopped just by educating them, but the stupid ones have to be put in fear of prison in order to get them to behave.

For what it's worth, I notice a lot of people doing stupid things with high-powered lasers, besides pointing them at airplanes. Even the ones who claim to know what they are doing obviously don't know what they are doing when you hear them describe some of their "harmless experiments."

And for those who care nothing about laws or the safety of others, do keep in mind that if you aim that powerful laser in the wrong direction, it will bounce off a specular surface and put a nice permanent burn mark on your retina, just as it will with anyone else.

P-T
6th Sep 2010, 01:35
Not sure your comment about "nobody needs a pilots licence, unless for professional reasons" is really a valid argument.

Gaining a PPL is in itself a demonstration of responsibility and skill. Buying a powerful laser from an internet is not.

As far as making the fine so heavy that people wont do it - do you have any idea how difficult it would be to catch someone firing a laser? Yes it has been done, but Christ how much manpower and resources would that take. Even that doesn't safeguard the pilots and passengers. I think people forget that we live in a world full of idiots.

Personally i have been targeted, its not pleasant but fortunately, neither I or my Pax have been affected by it. But I believe it is only a matter of time, as the frequency and strength of the laser attacks are clearly increasing.

Farrell
6th Sep 2010, 06:48
This problem as recently arrived at Muscat.

Unfortunately for pilots - there is a park that is situated about 2 to 1 mile final from the threshold of 08, positioned right on the extended centre-line, which can have hundreds of picnicking families in it of a weekend.

Green laser reports are on the increase. As is the activities of one spastic with an air-band transceiver who thinks its a great idea to repeat back some clearances and block the frequency.

One poor IL-76 jockey had his flightdeck lit up by, according to him, no less than four beams on take-off from 26 out over the park. They are always low initially - he did not get dinged in the eye but said it was bright enough to cause a distraction.

crippen
6th Sep 2010, 13:32
From a simple SLF. UK is trying.

Published Date: 03 September 2010
By Paul Jeeves
TOY guns fitted with potentially dangerous laser beams have been seized in an early morning raid on a market in North Yorkshire.
The Chinese-made toys, which have a price tag of £6, have been deemed to be so dangerous that they have been banned from sale throughout Europe.

The laser fitted on the toys has been found to be nearly 20 times more powerful than permitted by toy safety regulations – yet the packaging states the guns are suitable for children from five years of age.

Following a tip-off from a member of the public, trading standards officers from North Yorkshire County Council went to the Sunday market in Catterick and swooped on a stall being run by a trader from Oldham.

A search revealed 10 illegal toy weapons, all of which were seized.

The trading standards officers have launched an investigation to establish the source of the imported guns, which were seized at the market last Sunday. The trader could face prosecution.

The county council's executive member for trading standards, Coun Clare Wood, said: "These are extremely dangerous so-called toys, which could easily have the most horrific consequences. They could, for example, easily damage a child's eyes."

Laboratory tests which were carried out in July this year led to a Europe-wide recall of the guns. The tests showed that the guns pose a risk of damaging a person's sight because they incorporate class 3B lasers.Market swoop on dangerous laser-gun toys - Yorkshire Post (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Market-swoop-on-dangerous-lasergun.6512571.jp)

rotornut
6th Sep 2010, 13:42
If 5 mW is powerful, what about these:

Laserglow Hercules 250mW Green Laser Pointer
547N008
$1572.00

Laserglow Hercules 275mW Green Laser Pointer
547N009
$2177.00

Laserglow Hercules 300mW Green Laser Pointer
547N010
$2177.00

Laserglow Hercules 325mW Green Laser Pointer
547N011
$2842.00

Laserglow Hercules 350mW Green Laser Pointer
547N012
$3383.00

Laserglow Hercules 375mW Green Laser Pointer
547N013
$3988.00

Laserglow Hercules 400mW Green Laser Pointer
547N014
$4593.00

Can someone tell me why anyone would want one of these for a legitimate purpose?

Ex Cargo Clown
6th Sep 2010, 14:17
I would love our resident l@ser loving nutcase to give us one legitimate reason for the general public to need 200>500 mW lasers.

If he can, I will give him a challenge, I will take 1 second of his 480mW device if he can take 1mS of the laser I have access to :O :8

md80fanatic
6th Sep 2010, 14:35
I'd highly recommend having these handy in a high threat green laser environment. Shame they cannot be mirrored as well, for added protection.

Green Laser Eye Protection (http://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Green_532nm_LaserShields_Goggles-20-16.html)

From that website also comes information on the next laser threat, thanks to inexpensive blue diodes hitting the market recently. Its advertised as being 4000% brighter than previous blue-violet beams. It retails for a scant $300 USD and puts out a whopping 1W of power. The best absorptive color for a blue beam would be orange (opposite blue on color wheel), so look for some decent orange lens in the future.

EDIT: Sorry, SLF not thinking this through properly. These glasses would absorb green indicators on your instruments as well. There are red window films available, some self adhesive (just toss them and they stick to glass).

Ex Cargo Clown
6th Sep 2010, 14:40
I would be very wary of wearing non-approved laser protecting glasses, unless you can be absolutely sure of the wavelengths they block, and the impact they may have on night vision.

AnthonyGA
6th Sep 2010, 14:41
Can someone tell me why anyone would want one of these for a legitimate purpose?

Astronomers use lasers like these to point out things of interest in the sky, or so I've heard (I hope they get their written waivers in advance from the FAA before carrying out their educational sessions, though).

In any case, just because you don't see a legitimate purpose for them doesn't mean that no legitimate purpose exists.

Many ordinary people in the world do not see any legitimate purpose for allowing anyone to fly a small airplane. It doesn't transport much in the way of passengers or cargo, and it's a potential terrorist's weapon, and it endangers people on the ground. If the continued allowance of flying for pleasure were put to a vote in the general population, it would be outlawed overnight.

So, as I've said previously, be very careful about what you wish for. The same hasty outlawing of things in which you have no personal interest can also be used to eliminate things in which you have a great personal interest.

It's often much more fair to outlaw criminal acts than to outlaw materials. For example, it's not illegal to possess a forged diploma in most jurisdictions, but it's illegal to use it for fraud (by presenting it as legitimate). That's why it's legal for actors to dress as policemen for the shooting of a movie, but illegal for them to walk around and represent themselves as real policemen to passerby.

As far as making the fine so heavy that people wont do it - do you have any idea how difficult it would be to catch someone firing a l@ser? Yes it has been done, but Christ how much manpower and resources would that take.
It's not difficult at all if you have the right tools and/or techniques. One interesting thing about a laser beam is that it leads right back to the person aiming it. That has always been a risk for laser gunsights, and it's a risk for idiots trying to blind pilots with handheld lasers. With the right equipment, you can instantly track that laser back to its source, making arrest relatively straightforward. The military has such gadgets, as well as some civilian authorities from what I've read. I presume that they are expensive, but having a few around to track down laser-wielding dregs interfering with aviation would be cost-effective.

Also, I'm not suggesting a mere fine. I'm suggesting prison. Prison terms will stop a lot more would-be laser kiddies than a mere fine might do. Someone who can afford to pay $4500 for a handheld laser isn't going to be discouraged by a $1000 fine.

Unfortunately, a lot of these dorks are likely minors, which means that even if they are caught, they won't get anything more than a slap on the hand. Perhaps in that case, a very large fine that requires their parents to sell the house might be persuasive … but that kind of question is outside the scope of this discussion.

rottenray
7th Sep 2010, 06:13
P-T writes:

Surely you have to agree not everyone is as responsible as you or any other aviation enthusiast on PPRuNe may be...I agree with some of what you write in this post (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/425790-laser-nuisance-2.html#post5915015), although I think connecting our gun laws with our crime rate is a bit of a stretch. We're into a 3rd generation of kids raised mostly by daycare centers, babysitters, et cetera. And, there are countries which have much tighter gun laws and the same or greater crime rates. Perhaps you live in one.

laissez faire (look it up!) attitude sit so comfortably thenis an especially nice stretch. For what it's worth, I've never spoken out against licensing - merely a knee-jerk ban. Manage it like HAM radio, fine. Solid ban, not fine.


rotornut writes:

Laserglow Hercules 400mW Green l@ser Pointer
547N014
$4593.00

Can someone tell me why anyone would want one of these for a legitimate purpose?I can't. Something of that power shouldn't be in "pointer" formfactor. There is no way to control its aim. There is no reason it should be that portable.

It's clearly not an instrument for amateur science, it's a high-powered toy with consequences.

Not in the "mostly harmless" category at all, I should add.


Ex Cargo Clown writes:

I would love our resident l@ser loving nutcase to give us one legitimate reason for the general public to need 200>500 mW l@sers.

If he can, I will give him a challenge, I will take 1 second of his 480mW device if he can take 1mS of the l@ser I have access toWell, if you're referring to me, I don't appreciate being called a nutcase. Also, I find it a bit irresponsible to suggest damaging your own eyesight backed with an offer to completely destroy someone else's just to prove a hollow point on an internet forum, don't you?

And, I never said "general public." There are drivers who shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car, there are pilots who shouldn't be near a yoke or stick, there are doctors who shouldn't be practicing, and there are parents who shouldn't have children.

The world gets a little dumber every time we legislate for idiots. The keys are education and enforcement.

Tolka
7th Sep 2010, 08:05
I wonder to what extent the average member of the public realises the danger caused by pointing lasers at aircraft. After all a lot of the low powered lasers are designed for pointing things out. In some cases the perpetrators could be acting in total ignorance of their effect on pilots. I believe that the CAA and/or other aviation bodies should bring this to the attention of the press in order to publicise the danger. While prosecuting someone might stop that person a publicity campaign is likely to reach a greater audience.

alisoncc
7th Sep 2010, 08:47
Just a techie perspective, but how difficult would it be to mount a device on the nose of an aircraft that measure the angle and direction of a laser beam, then in conjunction with the aircraft's GPS provide the authorities with a precise location of the perpetrator in real time. Enabling the individual to be apprehended whilst still in possession of the laser.

FullWings
7th Sep 2010, 09:03
Just a techie perspective, but how difficult would it be to mount a device on the nose of an aircraft that measure the angle and direction of a l@ser beam, then in conjunction with the aircraft's GPS provide the authorities with a precise location of the perpetrator in real time. Enabling the individual to be apprehended whilst still in possession of the l@ser.
Probably could be done.

Why not a "retribution" làser mounted on the nose that fires back down at the source... Don't get mad, get even! :E

KBPsen
7th Sep 2010, 09:26
Mounting a couple of retroreflectors should do the trick.

lasernigel
7th Sep 2010, 10:01
I would be very wary of wearing non-approved l@ser protecting glasses, unless you can be absolutely sure of the wavelengths they block, and the impact they may have on night vision.

We supply all new lasers with goggles rated at OD6, min is OD5. These are wavelength specific and cover the green 532nM wavelength. However having an OD6 visual transmission is down to 28%.

If he can, I will give him a challenge, I will take 1 second of his 480mW device if he can take 1mS of the l@ser I have access to

Don't know what you've got access to, the last industrial laser I worked on gave an 18nS pulse at 1053nM of 180J over a 3mm square pattern. Was equivalent to 1 gigapascal of energy. Not to be messed with!

MagnusP
7th Sep 2010, 10:15
Systems for adaptive optics in astronomy are typically 50W over 5 beams. There is considerable liaison between observatories and ATC. Spotters are also used in case there are non-ATC-controlled aircraft in the area. 50W could seriously ruin your day.

mike-wsm
9th Sep 2010, 01:44
I worked on gave an 18nS pulse at 1053nM of 180J over a 3mm square pattern. Was equivalent to 1 gigapascal of energy.

Please explain. Thanks.

rottenray
9th Sep 2010, 06:19
Tolka writes:

I wonder to what extent the average member of the public realises the danger caused by pointing l@sers at aircraft.Obviously, they don't realize that it poses a great danger.

When should one be able to *safely* distract a pilot?

Obviously, never - and some times are worse than others based on the workload in the cockpit.


mike wsm asks about

18nS pulse at 1053nM of 180J,

written by nigel
~1000 nanometers puts it in the infrared; J = Joules = Watts for the sake of this argument, so, 180 watts; 18 nanoseconds is a really, really short pulse.

Hmm. Powerful. Invisible to the human eye in both wavelength and duration.

Target illumination?



RR

lasernigel
9th Sep 2010, 08:57
~1000 nanometers puts it in the infrared; J = Joules = Watts for the sake of this argument, so, 180 watts; 18 nanoseconds is a really, really short pulse.

Hmm. Powerful. Invisible to the human eye in both wavelength and duration.

Target illumination?

Parameters now changed slightly on website Metal Improvement | Laser Peening (http://www.metalimprovement.com/laserpeening.php)

Uses enormous. Besides strengthening also now used for forming. Technology from LLNL originally.

Ex Cargo Clown
9th Sep 2010, 08:59
~1000 nanometers puts it in the infrared; J = Joules = Watts for the sake of this argument, so, 180 watts; 18 nanoseconds is a really, really short pulse.

Hmm. Powerful. Invisible to the human eye in both wavelength and duration.

Target illumination?

I'm guessing it is a yttrium aluminium laser of some description, maybe used for ablation of some type, spectroscopy maybe?

I've used similar lasers at just over 1000nm that can wallop out 1 GW cm−2 for 10 ns. Now that would bring a tear to your eye...

mike-wsm
12th Sep 2010, 10:24
J = Joules = Watts

Please see pm. Thanks.

Basil
12th Sep 2010, 15:24
I guess rottenray means 1w = 1 joule/sec.

p.s. that was not OTTOMH ;)