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Denti
28th Aug 2010, 09:53
I would be interested if there are still airlines flying sectors up to 13 hours length with only two pilots. I know Air Berlin (or rather LTU) still does it, but are there others?

If you augment crews, what are the rules, airline SOP only or regulated by the local CAA? Pure EU-OPS allows a lot and is not really all that helpfull though, but i dunno about other rules.

Denti
28th Aug 2010, 12:16
Ah, yup, augmented is a much better term ;)

Ben178v
28th Aug 2010, 12:18
EU ops gives a 13hour FDP for 2 crew so long as it's no more than 2 sectors and it doesn't touch the WOCL.

Unforeseen circumstances with 2 crew gives you a 2 hour extension if your augmented then you get 3 hours extension.

With augmented you can have in flight rest which gives you 50% of the rest time added to the FDP ie 2 hours rest 1 hour extra.

Denti
28th Aug 2010, 13:32
I do know the EU-OPS regulations (somewhat) and they do allow for up to 14 hours (extended) flight duty.

I am more interested if there are airlines that actually use that with only two pilots on a regular basis. Or similar rules outside the EU which is after all only a small part of the world.

411A
28th Aug 2010, 22:57
Quote:
I would be interested if there are still airlines flying sectors up to 13 hours length with only two pilots.

Ahhh, three crew actually, two pilots, one professional (only) flight engineer.
Works like a charm, in full compliance with the regulatory authority.
Max duty period, with this augmented crew....twenty two hours.
Followed by, a minimum of twenty four hours rest, in HOTAC.
No exceptions.
How do I know?
I'm the DFO, and this rest requirement is enforced, make absolutely no mistake.
I will not have unsuitably rested crew flying our airplanes.
And, the company management backs me up one hundred percent.
Also, no exceptions.
None.
None, repeat none of our crew will be allowed to fly without proper rest, due to excessive duty time.
We are an ad-hoc charter carrier, and crew rest is important!

Big Pistons Forever
29th Aug 2010, 01:06
Quote:
I would be interested if there are still airlines flying sectors up to 13 hours length with only two pilots.

Ahhh, three crew actually, two pilots, one professional (only) flight engineer.
Works like a charm, in full compliance with the regulatory authority.
Max duty period, with this augmented crew....twenty two hours.
Followed by, a minimum of twenty four hours rest, in HOTAC.
No exceptions.
How do I know?
I'm the DFO, and this rest requirement is enforced, make absolutely no mistake.
I will not have unsuitably rested crew flying our airplanes.
And, the company management backs me up one hundred percent.
Also, no exceptions.
None.
None, repeat none of our crew will be allowed to fly without proper rest, due to excessive duty time.
We are an ad-hoc charter carrier, and crew rest is important!

:eek: Since the crew will have been awake for at least an hour before the start of the duty day, I sure would not want to be in an aircraft which is rolling in to a 200 and 1/2 ILS to a contaminated runway at max crosswind, knowing the crew has been awake over 22 hrs :uhoh: I guess the ad-hoc charter operators chose to learn nothing from the Halifax MK 747 accident :ugh:

EW73
29th Aug 2010, 04:05
The whole point of the 3-crew (2 x pilots + 1 FE) on long haul flights, is to allow one flight crewmember to get some quality rest in cruise (each one, 1 at a time), so that the entire flight deck is rested prior to the descent/approach.
A very simple planning exercise.

Works like a charm, and has done for many a year.

EW73

411A
29th Aug 2010, 05:13
A very simple planning exercise.
Works like a charm, and has done for many a year.


Indeed so...it would also appear that many who comment otherwise have absolutely no idea.
No surprise...:rolleyes:

BTW, in the above referenced twenty two hours duty period, we carry an augmented FD crew, as was clearly stated.;)

SherwinWong
29th Aug 2010, 05:31
I saw a lot of two pilots flight a 10 hrs or more flight in some Airlines. But as I know the pilots in China, most of the Airlines have three or four even more pilot in a 8-10 hrs flight. Is that more safty?

Denti
29th Aug 2010, 08:08
Well, lets rephrase it. I'm interested in carriers that use only 2 pilots on aircraft that do not require an FE (modern type aircraft, A330/340, B777/747/767) on sectors of more than 12 hours flight duty time. Especially if they are based in europe, but as well elsewhere.

Of course i am also interested in carriers that use an augmented crews on those sectors (and shorter ones) although EU-OPS allows them to be operated with just 2 flight crew members and their inhouse rules that regulate that.

PPRuNeUser0190
29th Aug 2010, 16:55
My airline allows it. We often do flight towards Egypt, Israel where if we have more than 10 minutes of delay we are to use the unforeseen circumstances. OF course, when an airlines uses this they have to show to the CAA that not more than 30% of those flight were operated without unforeseen circumstances.

EU-OPS only gives details about normal max FDP. They say extension due to augmented crew are up to the CAA to decide.

OPS 1.1115:
Flight crew augmentation
The Authority shall set the requirements in connection with the augmentation of a basic flight crew for the purpose of
extending the flight duty period beyond the limits in OPS 1.1105 above.

With a 2 man crew the maximum we can do is 16 hours (including unforeseen circumstances).

Big Pistons Forever
29th Aug 2010, 19:34
My airline allows it. We often do flight towards Egypt, Israel where if we have more than 10 minutes of delay we are to use the unforeseen circumstances. OF course, when an airlines uses this they have to show to the CAA that not more than 30% of those flight were operated without unforeseen circumstances.


Was this a typo or did you really mean that the regulator is OK with 70% of the flights going into extended duty days ?

PPRuNeUser0190
29th Aug 2010, 19:46
Jup typo, sorry about that:

this is the original text (CAA, not EU-OPS):

Planned schedules must allow for flights to be completed within the maximum permitted FDP. To assist in achieving this operators will take action to change a schedule or crewing arrangements at the lastest where the actual FDP exceeds the maximum FDP on more than 33% of the flights in that schedule during a scheduled seasonal period.