B747 Classic....getting recurrent?

[Uncle Wiggily]

Hi,

Any ideas on how and where to get recurrent in the 747 Classic?? How much do you think it costs?

Thanks

[Caboclo]

I heard tell United still has their classic sim in Denver. No idea on the cost.

[WhaleDriver]

The Evergreen guys lay claim to the old classic sim in Denver. Might have to go thru Evergreen to use it. One of the classic sims Atlas has in MIA is leased thru Pan Am. Might be an option there.

[MarkerInbound]

Aero Services in Miami also has a Classic sim.

[unwashed]

call Pan Am International in Denver they will quote you a price.

[SMOC]

CX has a classic sim, however don't do training on it, it's used for new pilot applicants. GECAS lease space in the same building for sim training, they may be able to lease it from CX.

[beachflt]

EAAC training at Bournemouth I think still runs the old BA classic 200 sim, might be worth a try lookIng them up.

[maxfly1]

Mineapolis Pan Am sim in Eagan, should be around $3-5K depending on the seat. Get on Pan Am website, I saw it there. Pan Am in MSP is desperate for people, might lower the price.

[Uncle Wiggily]

Great information. I really appreciate the details given! I will call all the places.

[TowerDog]

Aero Services in Miami...The rate is probably around $300 to $400 per hour for the box, then you add crew and instructor.

[llccafr]

Talk to Air Atlanta Icelandic! You might even get a job...

[ishe]

I think maybe Uni Top have asked Uncle Wiggily if he is prepared to do his own recurrency. Got an email from them today as well asking the same.

[Spooky 2]

Not sure where your from but it has to be either FAA approved or EASA/JAA, depending on your airmans cert.

[ishe]

The bournemouth one is great, there is one at Burgess Hill not too far from Gatwick that AAI have used and are using again shortly and one at Lufthansa in Frankfurt which apparently is a decent sim as well. Hope this helps.

[Uncle Wiggily]

ishe:

I did speak with the man mentioned in the other Uni-Top thread. I told them I wasn't current in several emails and they asked me if I would get current. I researched it and found out the cost would be around 5000 dollars. Not including hotel and transportation costs. So then, I get the call from Uni-Top and ultimately a combination of the threads on this forum and the actual conservation with the Chief Pilot...didn't give me that warm fuzzy feeling. Trying to get certain details from them was like pulling teeth. I can only imagine what communication is like once they got you stranded in Wuhan. 40 on/20 off. Sounds OK, but we all know they will probably not honor this. It would probably be an epic battle every time you try and organize your travel to and from your days ON.

In addition, say I get current on the 747 classic and then fail the infamous Chinese medical for some bull**** reason...great, I am current in an aircraft that not many people operate anymore.

In my opinion, if they need people then they can pay to get me current.

[alexb757]

Very wise words, Wiggly!

I, too, am no longer current on type and there is NO way I would pay for a recurrent unless I was GUARANTEED a job, in writing, plus the terms & conditions as outlined in the original ad - incl. time on/off plus travel in their time, not your days off!!!:=

These so-called "wonderful" opportunities are all one-sided and as you say, if you flunk the Chinese astronaut physical, then you are screwed both financially and job-wise with a TOTALLY useless piece of paper.

I would hang tight if I were you.

Wait a month or two when they are desperate for crews and then you'll see the ****NEW & IMPROVED FLAVOR** ads come out with much better terms ...................seen it a dime a dozen with agency ads every week and on flightglobal.com It always means one thing - they had to improve the package considerably because no one was applying and taking the bait.

Besides, even if you got current, you will still have to go through their own course of indoc, SOPs, bits and bobs just like you do with every new airline you work for. This is only a means for them to save a bit of cash if enough people bite. Wait it out or choose an operator that values its crews with what they have brought to the table.

Also, ask yourself, why are they still operating a 747 classic freighter when most of their competition is now using 777, -400, 747-8 aircraft now. A lot can be told about a company before you even step on their soil.

Good luck on whatever you decide.

VP

[Uncle Wiggily]

Alexb757: Thanks. Yes, I think we are on the same wavelength concerning this matter. They told me that the Chinese CAA would not allow a non-current pilot to take the written exam, sim evaluation and medical exam. Fine, they can have their little weird rules if they wish. But, for me to get recurrent without a 100 percent guarantee of employment is poor decision making at the extreme. If the Chinese airline wants 747 Classic pilots (a vanishing breed), then they have to accomodate the reality of the situation in my opinion. Yes, you are also correct in having to ask the question of why are they still flying a jet that was put together in the early 1970s? Best of luck to them, but they have to understand that Chinese carriers are quickly gaining a non-favourable reputation in terms of contracts and wishy/washy communication with its contractors.

[SNS3Guppy]

Also, ask yourself, why are they still operating a 747 classic freighter when most of their competition is now using 777, -400, 747-8 aircraft now. A lot can be told about a company before you even step on their soil.

Classic 747's are still turning a tidy profit and doing a whirlwind business globally. Why are they still operating the 747? It's a good platform for international freight. That's why.

If the Chinese airline wants 747 Classic pilots (a vanishing breed), then they have to accomodate the reality of the situation in my opinion. Yes, you are also correct in having to ask the question of why are they still flying a jet that was put together in the early 1970s?

Vanishing breed? Hardly.

Why fly something that was built in the 70's? A LOT of aircraft are in service around the world of the same vintage. Some considerably older.

Just recently I've been ferrying older airplanes out of storage, to be put back in service. One of the types that's been put back in service by a major flag carrier are a fleet of DC-9's. The airline which bought them flies a number of more modern aircraft, but just bought a mothballed fleet of DC-9's. Simply because an airplane is a few years old doesn't mean it's not economically viable.

[Uncle Wiggily]

Sns3Guppy: I used to fly the Classic. I like the Classic. All I am saying is that if you look at the numbers and statistics of airlines operating newer equipment vs. those pulling out DC-9s and Classics from the boneyard (even including Kalitta buying some from Del Smith down in Marana), that a pilot has a far greater chance of employment if they are Typed in the B744 or something more modern than the Classic. I realize that Classic guys want to defend their aircraft...and hey it's a great airplane, but being current in the Classic vs the 744....chances of picking up employment are a hell of a lot better being current in the 744.

Honestly, I really don't envision aviation being dominated by the 747 Classic as you seem to believe.

Anyhow, I'm not looking to get into a pissing match. It's just my opinion.

[SNS3Guppy]

Honestly, I really don't envision aviation being dominated by the 747 Classic as you seem to believe.

Nobody, least of all me, said any such thing.

Classic pilots, however, are not a "vanishing breed," nor is the use of classics indicative of a poor operator, as you insinuate.

I have no intention of getting into a pissing match, either. To suggest that one ought to bypass classics because they say something untoward about the operator, however, is at best inaccurate.


...a pilot has a far greater chance of employment if they are Typed in the B744 or something more modern than the Classic.

I don't know that I'd agree that a pilot has a greater chance, though certainly one has more options to which one can apply.

[alldaysushi]

I have to thow my two pennies in with guppy;

Yes I fly the Classic whale, yes its old, yes I'm getting older..

The use of the classic is not always indicative of a @##$bag operation. Sometimes wise money will avoid heavy, heavy, lease/mortgage on the newer 777 and or 744 for the uplift potential of the classic with relatively no monthly payment.

Yes, she does suck fuel, yes, she doesen't like Sub.83M, but still a pilots aircraft, albeit old retired guys looking for another shot at the best 70's tech still out there.

Still the fastest...and yes, when I was a boy in NYC, the greatest thrill in 1970 was to see the whale on the Parkway Visual for 13 KJFK, from the Belt parkway, fell in love, stayed in love.

And still I walk up to the old Gal, thinking, "boy i'd really like to fly that thing one day"..."hey wait a minute, I am"

safe journies...Sushi

[Max-Performance]

My impression of UTop is that they are no worse or any better than any other start-up. In other words they haven't a clue. All they are doing is regurgitating the stuff from the CAAC.
And chill out about the medical most people pass (eventually). It does appear that holders of Fed licenses find it easier to get the required paperwork than JAA, and the written test is basically an FAA rip-off. There is no interview, if you have the requirements you are in. The lifestyle is up to you.

[alldaysushi]

Max-P,

Did you actually attend the UTOP interview, if so is there a sim eval. in Hong Kong, I've heard conflicting stories.

I agree these jobs are what you make them, location wise. Better China, than the Sand box...

thanks for your time...Sushi

[Max-Performance]

In reply

Yes

Yes

There is no 'interview'. There is a sim check in HK, but it is utterly chaotic. The most difficult bit is collecting the required papers - at your considerable expense. After that it is obvious they are not ready, the excuses start as to why you cannot travel 'yet'.

If you can find anything else do it.

[highroadtochina]

Hi there,
I must agree with you. Wait for an airline to hire you and they should pay to get you current.
I had a situation just recently where I landed a DC8 job in the UAE (with a Job contract in hand) but was required to get current on a DC8. They recommended I go through a Sim operator in Miami. I started making arrangements and very fortunately did not pay for it or for airline tickets from Africa and accommodation because the prospective the employer just stopped communicating. To this day, despite phone calls and emails, I do not know what happened.
So even with a contract in hand there are no guarantees and certainly if you spent the money on training, who would you sue in the UAE or in China to get it back?