Fire Pilots

[MasonKR]

OK, I would like to ask a legit question without most of the flaming that seems to occur when these sorta questions arise.
If one was to want to get into the firefighting aspect of this industry how would you go about it? I.E. if you wanted to sit SIC what are the hour requirements, and what would be the best way of going about trying to get your foot in the door of such a hard field to break into.

Also, to sit as PIC what would you want to have on a resumé, for instance, long line, type rating, hour requirements ect.

Lastly, to get carded. What does the check ride consist of? From what I have found out on my own, and the pilots I have talked to the common consensus is that it is one of the most intense check rides that you can do. Would you want to have this before you apply to a job, or is it something the company will do after you are hired?

I wholeheartedly hope there are no grammatical errors in this question, for I know that most of the responses will be about how "you can't even spell so why are you trying" but I would like to know what I need to start doing to tailor my experience so I am working toward a goal, not just building hours. Now I know that I have to build hours, but if I am doing it, I would like to do it in a manner that is beneficial to my end goal, not just a counter weight.

Thanks

[Gordy]

We fiar pie-lits caant speel.....Ya weel fit rite in....


Here are the requirements along with references:

A type II CWN contract can be downloaded here:

CWN contract (http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/contracting/helicopters_cwn/helicopter_contract_cwn.pdf)

Even though this is a Type II contract, the pilot requirements are the same for all contracts. (I was unable to find any other contracts on-line). Go to page 30 in the document, (will be 51 of 135 in pdf format), to Section D—Pilot Requirements Experience and it shows the requirements in detail. This is a basic summary, read the document for ALL the correct info. All times are helicopter:

Total Time: 1,500
PIC 1,500
Preceding 12 months 100
Weight class 100
Make & Model 50
Turbine 100
Mountain 200 (more to follow)
Mountain Make & model 10
Long line VR 10

Bear in mind that you do NOT need all these requirements to get carded. For example, in region 8, they do not require long line. I did a check ride with an AMD inspector there and he was not able to sign my card for Long Line as he did not have any. There are also other qualifications on a pilot card that require further training and hours requirements—fixed float, PSD, helitorch, ACETA, and rappel for example.

Mountain Time

The USFS defines Mountain Time as “operating helicopters in mountainous terrain identified in 14CFR 95 subpart B-Designated Mountainous Area. Operating includes maneuvering and numerous takeoffs and landings to pinnacles, ridgelines and confined areas.”

AMD has a slightly different definition. As with most things it is difficult to nail anyone down with this in writing. I did find it hidden away in OPM No. 06-54, (see section 7. H on page 3):

OPM 06-54 (http://amd.nbc.gov/library/opm/06-54.pdf)

“Mountainous terrain experience is defined as: Experience in maneuvering a helicopter at more than 7,000 feet mean sea level (MSL) altitude including numerous takeoffs and landings in situations indicative to mountainous terrain. This terrain consists of abrupt, rapidly rising terrain resulting in a high land mass projecting above its surroundings, wherein complex structures in which folding, faulting, and igneous activity have taken place. These mountainous areas produce vertical mountain winds and turbulence associated with mountain waves, producing abrupt changes in wind direction often resulting in upflowing or downflowing air currents.”

As for whether you should take a long line course—as one who is in a position to hire pilots for fire contracts, I would say yes. Minimum hours for carding, and minimum hours to get hired are two different things. The company I work for is generally looking for a minimum of 5,000 hours to get hired. Your 10 hours of long line training “may” help. If nothing else it will show that you have at the very least been exposed to a different way of flying. It will help with your general airmanship and control of the aircraft. (As a side note—I went inadvertent IMC many years ago—I was low level, and stuck my head out the door and was able to see the ground and fly back into VMC by utilizing VR techniques). Also, once you reach that point where you are looking to get hired by a utility company, they may be able to train you to long line quicker than someone with no hours.

Hope this helps.

The rules recently changed--pilots are now REQUIRED to complete inter-agency training prior to being carded. These courses are here:


H1--Basic Fire Behaviour and Tactics (https://www.iat.gov/Training/modules/seat/h1.html)


H2--Organisation, communication and airspace (https://www.iat.gov/Training/modules/seat/h2.html)


H3--Fire Helicopter Operations (https://www.iat.gov/Training/modules/seat/h3.html)


A110--Aviation Transport of Hazardous Materials (https://www.iat.gov/Training/modules/a110/pre-110.html)

Read these, they may help you:


Professional Helicopter Pilot Guide (http://amd.nbc.gov/library/handbooks/phpg_0296.pdf)


Inter-agency PTS (http://amd.nbc.gov/dts/tsdocs/IHPTS6-00.pdf)


Inter-agency Aviation User Pocket Guide (http://amd.nbc.gov/safety/library/iaupg.pdf)


If you really want it--the IHOG (http://www.nifc.gov/ihog/)

There are more---but these are the basics.

[MasonKR]

Wow... let me say thanks in advance. I have put this question out on a lot of different forums, and not one of them has had a response. Then I get this which is pretty much what I have been looking for.

So, I knew you needed around 1,500hrs ish to be looked at, but what would you personally recommend I do? I live in Ohio so the mountainous terrain is hard to come by but I have looked at moving to AZ or OR for a while. I fly a lot of skydiving jumps and I usually get them to around 7000ft MSL now some people I have talked to say that you can use this as mountain time due to the height and what not ( I personally don't think that is the fact) but some say so.

Next question, what is the best way to even break into this aspect of flying? I am not above just getting on a plane to go talk to some companies, just to talk. I mean hell I'd fly a kite if there was nothing else to fly to be honest, I just love flying. In your professional opinion would it behoove me to just go out to say Evergreen or someone like that and just hang out for a day or so and just talk to these guys. Not ask them for a job, but just sit and see what all they recommend I do, and see what there daily jobs are like. I have done what research I can but this little niche group there is not a lot to find out about.

Thank again .
My Email is [email protected] if you'd rather send thing that way or on here or whatever works best

Best Regards,
Kyle

[Hooker47]

I've been wondering these same questions for a while as well (as I'm sure many others are too). I spoke with a fellow at Firehawk about the details of his entrance into the fire world and he said he was basically in the right place at the right time. Unfortunately, this industry seems to need personal connections more than anything else and you just need to network your way into a position. This particular fellow had no previous fire experience and they more or less allowed him to ride along to gain some hours.

I spoke with Matt Zuccaro about this particular aspect of the fire industry about a year ago and he echoed my frustration. It seems the only way to get fire experience is to fly with a fire company (duh), but the only way to get hired on at these companies is to have fire experience. So unless you have an inside scoop I can't seem to figure out a way to crack into it. Matt suggested that the industry and the FAA were coming up with some sort of "accredited" fire school to get the requisite experience but I haven't heard of anything along these lines actually coming to fruition.

As far as mountain time goes, the FAA has designated certain parts of the US (and world) as officially mountainous which can be logged as such. There is a convenient chart in the AIM (Figure 5-6-2 as of 2009 edition).

Best of luck.

[spinwing]

Mmmm ...

Gordy ... an EXCELLENT response to the question ..... :D

[Gordy]

Hooker....

As far as mountain time goes, the FAA has designated certain parts of the US (and world) as officially mountainous which can be logged as such. There is a convenient chart in the AIM (Figure 5-6-2 as of 2009 edition).

The FAA definition of mountain time is for the purpose of IFR separation from mountains etc....has NOTHING to do with logging mountain time...the two are completely different. See my note above....

The FAA has nothing to do with fire flying... there is no accredited school, and to be honest...There is "school" in Montana that will teach you to fly fires, but not sure how well it will do...I find it hard to believe that you could learn it from a school. I am in a position where I hire pilots for fire contracts....it would not influence my decision if you went to the school or not.... Cannot beat on the job training under supervision....Prescribed fire contracts are the best way to learn fire behavior.

Will try to answer you specific questions in due course..... currently working a fire in Wyoming...and need rest.....

[MasonKR]

Hooker,

I knew of a guy that did the same thing. He was just "in the right place" sorta thing and they let ride SIC and watch gauges. I would love noting me than to be that guy and just luck into a position, but like everything in this industry its about who you know, and being where I'm from its hard to make the right contacts sorta say. I have heard of a couple people around here that work on the ground side, but they have no connection with anyone in the heli industry.

Gordy,

Again, thank you for giving such an indepth response, and being on a fire at that... I have saved the sites you've given, and trust me I will be watching for anything else you might have to say

Thanks again
Kyle

[MasonKR]

Now, the only way I have heard that you get on is that you ride SIC watching gauges. Now this may be the case, but I that's why I am on here . So far you have answered A LOT of my questions and I am very appreciative to say the least. But, from what I have sorta pieced together is that you need to know someone in the industry even to get looked at.

In the helicopter contract PDF the requirements for SIC are as follows: Co-pilot/Second-in -Command (SIC) shall meet requirements of operators certificate. They are not issued a Helicopter Qualification card. Does this mean that the operator can have for lack of a better word whoever they want to sit SIC if they are required to do so.

If this is the fact would this be a viable option on gaining the experience that you can't seem to get without on the job training?

[HOVERJOCKI]

Unfortunately it helps to work for a company that does some sort of utility work where by you will get the mountain experience. If they do fire contracts like the company i work for then you will probably get trained up for fire/bucket work.
Keep an eye out on the job websites because some of those companies are looking for the basic requirements like aircraft type and time and will train you up especially if they need pilots.
Some companies will do siesmic work which is a very good way of getting longline trained and experience.
The fire specific will be on the job training as you never know what you will be asked to do or where you are going to fly.
The requirement/courses you have to do as Gordy pointed out have to be done and if you are in the SW the Grand Canyon Sign Off as well.
The checkride is pretty straight forward for VR but it all depends what aircraft you are flying (some easier to do this out of than others).
Good luck with your quest. Hopefully when you get to fight fires you will get a better season than we have had the last 2 years.
Fly safe.

[Nubian]

Mason,

As for the requirement for SIC, unless the standard has changed it is pretty much that you have your license.
I was one week away from my Comm. V-ride, when I was asked to go and "watch the gauges" as you say in the S-64 flying fires. That would have meant flying SIC in the Skycrane with 150 hours total time :cool: sadly they couldn't wait that week :(

As mentioned earlier in the tread, V-ref is a plus, and forget logging mountain-time just for flying over 7000....

As I said, things may have changed though.

Good luck anyways.

[Buitenzorg]

My info is about 8 yrs old so may well be wrong now, but I can see two ways of fairly reliably getting onto fires if you're willing to invest several years.

One is to go fly for Papillon on the south rim of the Grand Canyon. Of course their core business is tours but they had several aircraft on fire contracts each season and their number kept increasing each year. They hire several new pilots each year - minimums were 1,000 hrs PIC back then. Make it clear that you're there for the long haul (most young pilots leave as soon as they get some hours because there isn't much to do in the area and flying tours gets boring) and want to get into contract flying, then keep your mouth shut and work hard - they really try and look after and hold onto good people. You'll fly tours for two years and probably start getting some contract work (animal counts and so on) in your third year, and some fire work one or two years later. Just remember that tours will still be their core business and outside of fire season you'll still be flying tours.

The other is going to Columbia (or one of the other logging companies operating two-crew aircraft such as S-61s or S-64s) as co-pilot; they all have some aircraft on fire contracts during the season and eventually you'll be on one of them. Just remember that their core business is logging and you'll be doing more of that than flying on fires - and there is a reason why the turnover for logging co-pilots is as high as it is.

Good luck, if you really want to fly on fires and are willing to make the necessary sacrifices then eventually you will succeed.

[Gordy]

Things have changed over the years. 20 years ago, Columbia, Erikson, Siller Bros. would hire their co-pilots with 150 hours and a comm license--not so anymore. Especially these last two years, where the "pool" of qualified pilots is high.

Like others have said, the best way to fire is to work for a company that has a bit of everything. Papillon, Evergreen, Temsco et al are all somewhat open to hiring "newer" pilots and moving them up the chain and into fire aircraft. The other way would be to build hours and try and get on with a smaller operator who may be willing to train you for utility. There is something to be said for hiring someone green and training them to your liking and standard.

Back to the issue of mountain time. All because you fly above 7,000 does make one a mountain pilot. You need to have experience in landing on sharp ridges, in mountainous terrain. You will be given a checkride by a Government carding pilot and it will be painfully obvious if you have mountain time or not.
Here are some typical landing spots on fires.

This first one is Nick Peak mobile repeater site. There is not a whole lot of places to put the skids. For those with google earth: N44 56.510 W115 52.309

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/LaFonda/m20.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/LaFonda/m19.jpg

This next one is over near the Teton mountains. This was a resupply Helispot we used on a fire. For those with Google earth N43 30.147 w111 17.836 You can see the burnt trees just east of this spot.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/LaFonda/h1.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/LaFonda/h12.jpg

These spots are somewhat difficult but just take practice...as you can see they are both over 8,000 ft---and around 80 to 90 deg F.

The biggest thing I see in trying to find qualified pilots, is most "newer" people through the system have a hard time with navigation and planning. In training, most never fly more than a hundred miles, and have hours to plan it. It is not uncommon to show up for work and be sent to a fire that is 700 or 800 miles away, you have an hour to plan and get ready----and just to throw this out there, once your crew is on board you are left with only enough weight to carry about 90 minutes worth of fuel. Start practicing now.

The other area sadly lacking in todays training schools is mulit-tasking. In my aircraft, I have 2 VHF radios, 2 FM radios, and 2 GPS units. On a fire, you will be talking to air attack, lead plane and other aerial resources on VHF, and the guys on the ground on the FM radios. You also need to work the task at hand, be it buckets, long lining, avoiding the smoke, (almost impossible) and knowing where you are at all times.

You asked about a typical checkride. Your first ride will be just like a commercial checkride. You will spend some time on the ground going over airspace, communications, aircraft systems and limitations etc. Then comes the fire aspect---you will be asked about fire airspace (FTA's), fire behavior, communications, mountain flying, and any other "special" tasks you are applying for.

The flight will consist of a simulated fire, you will have to input a Lat/Long and fly to it, program frequencies into the FM radios etc. You will have to land on a mountain peak etc You will have to demonstrate accuracy with the bucket on a spot drop, and then joining a few trail drops with no gap. For long line, "ascends vertically using vertical reference techniques while centered over the load until the load clears the ground, then maintains a stable hover with a load 10 feet (±5 feet) above the ground for 30 seconds, take off, fly around then "maintains the proper approach angle and rate of closure to establish an out-of-ground effect hover with the load 10 feet above the ground (±5feet) for 30 seconds. The load will then be placed within a 10-foot radius for the specified release/touchdown point."

All in all, your first ride will take around 5 hours total time...of which maybe an hour is in the aircraft.

Hopefully all this helps---good luck and get used to living out of a bag in hotels.

[Hell Man]

Mason: Depending on your level of experience you might also consider applying to the USFS. Details on minimum requirements as well as other information is available here: Aviation Jobs (http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/aviation/av_jobs/index.html)

Much work is also contracted out and details of some of the contractors as well as the possible avenues you might consider with them have been capably highlighted above by Gordy.

Gook luck. :ok:

HM

[MasonKR]

Well I would like to say thanks for all the info, I know have a much better picture of what I need to start working on, and how I can try and get there. To date this is the mos comprehensive answer I have received on the question of how to be a fire pilot again thanks.

[Epiphany]

Don't let people put you off. Anyone can make their job sound difficult. The more you do anything the easier it becomes and the easier it becomes the more you want to convince others that it is difficult.

Fighting fires can be dirty work with long hours and sometimes scary but most of all it is exciting and probably the best fun you will have flying helicopters and that is why pilots do it.