EasyJet Hiring Experienced Pilots anytime soon?

[Odd Socks]

Does anyone here happen to know if the Chaps in Orange will be hiring people with experience anytime soon?

I mean hiring on decent T&C's with a decent salary. I'm not interested in & couldn't afford to join via this flexi-crew malarkey.

I have 4000 hrs TT with 2500 hrs Lefthand seat Turbo-prop.

From what I've read on other posts / forums it seems to me that Easy are only interested in this flexicrew business.

Does anyone know any different? ...

Good Day ..... Odd Socks

[PPRuNeUser0178]

I have heard that looking forward ( that'll be a first) they are concerned about the experience pool for upgrades and that that will require some DEP, no idea of timescale though, sorry.

[Mister Geezer]

require some DEP

In the form of flexi-crew Skippers??? :confused:

[fastidious bob]

Skippers;)

[beauport potato man]

Current command list less than 150 people long, planned commands this winter >100 (and historically the planning has always been short) so it is looking likely that some DEP's could be needed.

[Deep and fast]

Just because the command list is 150 long, surely doesn't mean that there aren't more that meet the requirements and could be assessed.

D and F :8

[beauport potato man]

Deep and Fast, of course you are right. My point was simply to highlight that the list is now very short in a time that the company is still expanding and we have a trickle of leavers.
There will be people joining the list every month, but how many is impossible to say.

[PAPI-74]

I hope they all tell them to poke the flexi-crew contract. What a joke!

[Tall Boy]

Well, eight onto the list at LGW alone this week so I don't imagine that things are getting that desperate yet. Having said that, the last FOs to join on permanent contracts are just reaching the minimum command hour requirements now so it may be more of a pressing concern in 12 - 18 months. Any DECs would be outrageous if there are suitably qualified SFOs within the company. If they tried to take on DECs or contract captains whilst SFOs were waiting for upgrade then there would be an uproar followed swiftly i'm sure by some form of industrial action.

[stansdead]

There wont be industrial action over DEC's. There never has been and never will be.

How do you expect the training department to cope with upgrades, new joiners, cadets, command failures, leavers and general expansion?

Your management have put your airline in a position whereby you need DEC's in order to survive next year.

Not good news if you're an FO, but hardly new news. Easy has taken DEC's since the beginning.......why stop now?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

why stop now

Because it would be distinctly unfair on those on the command list, F/Os' who have been in the company in many cases over 6 years, who will be by-passed by people who are new joiners. If easyJet really are serious about retaining crew and offering some sort of career path then DECs' should be a thing of the past. The problem lies in training capacity - increase the size of the training department and more command upgrades can be completed on an annual basis. Yet less than a year ago our flight ops managers were declaring the training department needed to be downsized :ugh:

There wont be industrial action over DEC's. There never has been and never will be.



Probably not, when you consider many ezy captains joined during the DEC hiring boom. However, career progression is an important part of our Balpa CC's mandate and I have no doubt that the threat of a new wave of DECs' , with the command list as long as it is, will meet strong opposition from Balpa and within the pilot ranks. NSF would agree with me!

[Craggenmore]

Current command list less than 150 people long...

Dont forget the post Pre-CPI candidates

Two months ago there were 132 awaiting CPI check flights.

So roughly 300 in the 'extended' queue.....

Yet less than a year ago our flight ops managers were declaring the training department needed to be downsized

Thats because few of them know what they're doing!

[Luke SkyToddler]

Anybody who uses the words "Easyjet" and "Career Airline" in the same sentence these days needs their head examined.

It's gotten so bad now that a couple of my former colleagues now SFO's have elected to turn down the offered command ... because it was a "seasonal command" i.e. you go back RHS in the winter - another dirty and devious way to screw the flexicrew kids. And of course the same crap with moving to LGW for the command. Any SFO on a base where they have a life especially if it's MAD or MXP would be mad to take them up on their oh-so-generous offer. Ergo - sorry guys we need some "flexicrew DEC's".

Word to the wise - out here in the sandpit we have most of the same things as EZY - incompetent managers, crap rosters, constantly moving command goalposts and a company that treats you with utter contempt. But at least an FO here, takes home a couple grand more than an EZY captain every month. If there's seriously 300 people waiting in the command wings and they're still talking DEC's, some of you guys should seriously think about what you're doing.

[kuwaitlocal]

If you ever had a command at Easy then you would know that as a F/O in the sandpit you don't take home anywhere near as much. Saying that, the complete package hopefully leaves you with a bit more in the pocket at the end of the month. The rest, I couldn't agree more.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Yeah but it could be a career airline. Thats my point. We weren't all exposed to the flexi-crew financial rape. The guys joining over the last couple of seasons have had a :mad: deal, but that will have to change as even 200hr cadets have been saying up yours and not turning up for their 320 courses having found better offers elsewhere.

Plenty of people have done very well out of ezy and are at a base that suits their life away from work. And the latest pay deal included a new entrant pay scale that *should* do away with flexi-crew. Which was CTC's brainchild as much as easyjet's. It would need more than a big aeroplane and another 2 grand or so a month to tempt me into a life in the desert, horses for courses and all that. DEC recruitment would however not so much change the goalposts, more like blow up the entire stadium.

*subject to the (in)competence of our management.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

As always, there is nothing as boring as the truth. For all you sandpit dwellers, I wish you well. Indeed, only this very night I discovered yet another top quality chap leaving us at easyJet to go in search of big jets and warmer climates. I wish him nothing but the best.

For those like myself happy to remain at easyJet for the foreseeable future, it is not all bad. Regarding the issue of DEPs, it seems unlikely we will be taking any soon. The word from above is that our pool of flexicrew pilots is now sufficiently large that we do not need to take more. I am also told, however, that we have just started another batch of CTC cadets (43 in total they tell me) and they will being trained throughout the winter. This does beg the question about what happens to our guys whose contract finishes in October. It would not go down well to see new bods coming in for training whilst other are left out in the cold for the winter. The signs are that most, if not all, of our current pilots will be kept on for the winter and then into next year, but that has still to be officially confirmed. Another interesting statistic for those that like that sort of thing is that we have trained 94 new captains from our own ranks this year (nearly 10% of our entire FOs) and are going to do another 96 for next year. I would humbly suggest that few airlines in Europe, and indeed anywhere else, can offer those sort of promotion opportunities. In addition, a number of those people are likely to leave to the sandpit, thereby creating even more opportunities for those that want to stay here. Regarding DECs, that is inconceivable for the foreseeable/infinite future and the stuff on here suggesting that is a likeliehood any time soon is either malicious speculation or just plain foolish. We have a large number of FOs awaiting commands and another (several hundred in total) who are nibbling at the hours for command should they choose to stay. And finally a word about the temporary commands. EasyJet may not have planned it this way, but most of the guys on that deal have made a fortune out of it. The got the £10k for taking it, avoided the 90% for 6 months that goes with a permanent command and then at the end of it nearly everyone of them got permanent commands after a few months anyway.

So life in the sandpit may be a wonder and delight to many, and I can only wish them well in their new-found utopia. It is a one-way transaction and so it is good they do enjoy it, as they will not be coming back to an airline job in the UK any time soon. For those who choose to stay at easyJet, it is not perfect, but it does suit a lot of people very well indeed. Our highly-publicised summer problems are proving a silver lining for numerous aspiring Captains as many more command opportunities will appear next year than would otherwise have been the case. It is my sincere hope that we will start recruiting 'proper' pilots again soon (not DECs!) rather than only from the ranks of the flexicrew scheme. In the meantiime, I wish all those marooned at FlyBe and the likes every success in their search for better things.

[Dan 98]

Well an interesting thread and one that i was half thinking of starting myself!!

I too would be very interested in joining Easy, currently an FO with 1500hrs+ on B733 on a contract likely to end on Oct the 30th.....! However only if it was proper recruitment on decent T&C's, full-time, fixed roster........From what NSF says above i won't hold my breath for that anytime soon.

I hope the tides turn but right now i think being a not particularly experienced FO (ie. like me with less than 2000/2500hrs) is becoming more and more worthless in this industry, it is one of extremes where you are either better off being a cadet or SFO approaching command, being sat somewhere in the middle isn't so good right now!!

Fingers crossed though.....:ugh:

[Firestorm]

Trust me Dan, being an SFO with a bucket load of hours is worthless too, especially with a 733 rating. You need a command with a minimum of 500 hours to even be marking time in this economy.

The airlines (I don't just mean Easy Jet) don't seem inclined to invest much in the industry and it's people at present, which is sort of understandable.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Just to be clear when I said DEP, I did not mean DEC! There is some amongst the spreadsheet and KPI readers who hold a view that to ensure upgrade supply in the future we may, and I stress, may have to diversify our sources into the RHS at EZY. The conversation I was part of took this to mean people with turbo-prop and regional jet time. As to the contracts involved with this ie flexible crew Trss, dep etc etc this conversation was a training one not a commercial one, so any opinion on what terms EZY would offer, if, they go down this path would be guess work, but it would be logical to assume they will start with the worst and see how many bite. That would be consistent with current practice, but we do have a new CEO with rumoured winds of change, emphasis on the word rumoured which sums up the title of this thread nicely.

[Akrapovic]

I know this is a rumour network - but can anyone locate the source as to the 100+ figure for upgrades this year . . . ?

[RHINO]

for all those thinking of beating a door to easy jet consider the following

"Crew costs continue to be a key area of management focus with significant opportunities for efficiency improvements in the medium term."

NSF did not write it.....the easy board did. They hate fixed rostering etc.

Expect any recruitment to be on the 'you should be so grateful to have a job line...' ....and I for one would not discount DEC's.

[superced]

NSF and Disneyland.....

[Mister Geezer]

So life in the sandpit may be a wonder and delight to many, and I can only wish them well in their new-found utopia. It is a one-way transaction and so it is good they do enjoy it, as they will not be coming back to an airline job in the UK any time soon.

NSF

I could not disagree more. It certainly does not have to be a one-way transaction. After being made redundant, I went to the sandpit 18 months ago and I came back to the UK this year to commence employment with a UK operator. Throughout the entire period from redundancy to working abroad and to where I am now, I not only kept my Command but remained a Line Trainer as well.

Funnily enough, when I was last at work, the chap sitting beside me in the flight deck had a similar story to tell as well, since he too had recently returned from lands afar!

[mikehammer]

It is a one-way transaction and so it is good they do enjoy it, as they will not be coming back to an airline job in the UK any time soon.

......................Why not?

[Doug the Head]

......................Why not? Don't listen to NSF! He's got his head so far up management's you-know-what, that he tends to look at things from a rather brown, or should I say orange, perspective.

Could it be that management (i.e. NSF's puppet masters) are slowly getting nervous about 2011 crewing levels now that more and more people are openly disagreeing with NSF's eternal love for EZY, and are starting to look elsewhere? If it turns out to be true that lot's of people will vote with their feet and take off for Emirates or Etihad in the near future, then perhaps the foundations for another summer of madness will be in place for 2011? :}

While I do agree with NSF that most Middle Eastern airlines are probably no real alternative to improving one's life (I wouldn't touch EK or EY with a 10' barge pole) it is utter nonsense that leaving to an airline outside the UK is like crossing a point of no return. It's just scaremongering... :hmm:

p.s. for anyone wanting to join on a fixed roster: after 2010 the thin edge of the wedge is firmly in place for flexible rostering (thanks in part to those naive traitors who sold their soul to the devil!) so count on the fixed roster pattern to disappear within a few years or so!

p.p.s. Joining as an experienced F/O? Forget it! Why pay an experienced F/O bananas if you can pay a cadet peanuts? :ouch:

[RHINO]

Good post Doug!

the Cadets don't get paid peanuts they send management Cashews!:D

The fixed rosters will not be given up without a monumental fight......:*

[Odd Socks]

p.s. for anyone wanting to join on a fixed roster: after 2010 the thin edge of the wedge is firmly in place for flexible rostering (thanks in part to those naive traitors who sold their soul to the devil!) so count on the fixed roster pattern to disappear within a few years or so!

p.p.s. Joining as an experienced F/O? Forget it! Why pay an experienced F/O bananas if you can pay a cadet peanuts? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/shiner.gifI fear this might be the case ... it is a shame as EasyJet would suit me quite well. (Regional base, fixed roster, good time to command - well so I thought!) But there seems no point of jumping ship if I'm going to work harder & earn less money.

Looks like I'll keep watching those whirlie things spin around outside my window and marvel in amazement as I see those shiney tubes climb through FL250.

OddSocks

[Doug the Head]

the Cadets don't get paid peanuts they send management Cashews!:DTrue! :{

The fixed rosters will not be given up without a monumental fight......:*You mean just like the 'no local contracts fight' was fought? :hmm:

By testing the water this summer, management have firmly inserted the thin end of the wedge up everyone's rectum and probably concluded that x% of people are stupid and desperate enough to sell out their colleagues and put up with a random roster in return for a few extra bananas.

Similar to the outmaneuvering of BALPA by offering local contracts to the new MAD base a few years ago, could it perhaps be that in the foreseeable future bases will be crewed with a 'take it or leave it' random roster contract?

There are always enough spineless people desperate enough to stick a knife in their colleagues back in return for a quick(er) upgrade or if you are a cadet with enough cashews to pay for it: a real 'McJob' with a genuine 'career' airline! :bored:

[pilotsince99]

I have just been reading through all these posts and find it interesting how many think that everything in Easy is doom and gloom.

I have been an SFO with easy for 3 1/2 years, I have seen some good and bad things. I worked for another company before and I can tell you now there will no airline where everything will be perfect. The grass is always greener on the other side until you get there.

I have been fortunate that I got a DEP position with easy when I joined the airline. I was told then that there had to be a balance between senior and junior pilots for insurance purposes. Wether that is true or not I don't know, but it worked out well for me. Will this ever come back is a good question. There are definitely quite a few SFO's leaving for the desert, upgrades of SFO's, rumours of BA starting to recruit again, etc but then there is also the threat of stagnation in expansion which will leave FO's sitting longer in the RHS.
Overall Easy will have to do something to keep the experience level up, so in that sense I am hopeful for new joiners or those who are on summer contracts, that better contracts will be offered.

I still believe that easyjet has the potential to be one of the best airlines to work for in Europe. Things need to change, but I think that that message is coming through now.

[spanner the cat]

post # 17
So life in the sandpit may be a wonder and delight to many, and I can only wish them well in their new-found utopia. It is a one-way transaction and so it is good they do enjoy it, as they will not be coming back to an airline job in the UK any time soon.

NSF - I fear that the part of your post relating to a return to UK is possibly quite true. The majority of pilots who've ended up out in the sandpit over the past 12-18 months are there because they were either at bust airlines or those downsizing and it was the best offer on the table by some margin (my situation). The post as a a whole seems very self-satisfied but the last paragraph is just unbelievable and unwarranted.

There were 2 airlines with a significant presence in UK that were recruiting (one of them in a big way it seems from your post). Both airlines consistently either ignored those (experienced) pilots or tried to get them employed on ridiculously poor contracts heavily weighted to the employer.

The next batch of UK pilots going out to the ME will be going there with the lure of a better job and for more positive reasons (unless another airline goes belly up) so maybe the attitude of your last para would then be more justifiable.

No matter how you spin it, the ambition to drive down Ts & Cs in the LoCo's has significantly benefitted the Middle Eastern airlines and pushed a lot of experienced pilots overseas. It begs the question then; why, if EZY is recruiting next year, should it be so impossible for experienced UK pilots to get back the the UK anytime soon?

Spanner

[Mister Geezer]

On closer examination, the tone of the last paragraph is rather unfortunate. As my grandmother said to me 'may your words be few and well chosen'.

It is on the verge of being unprofessional when a member of the training department says:

It is my sincere hope that we will start recruiting 'proper' pilots again soon.

To publicly classify one of your potential line trainees as not being a 'proper' pilot is not suitable on a public forum such as this. You could have easily have reworded that sentence to achieve the same effect yet not cause any potential offense to any of the Flexicrew entrants. Some contributors have revealed that some experienced Airbus pilots have joined on 'Flexi' terms this summer. If I was in such a position then I would be a 'tad miffed' if I was being classed as an inferior crew member.

I wish all those marooned at FlyBe and the likes every success in their search for better things.

Now that is a rather cantankerous and arrogant statement. Those that I know at FlyBe do not feel 'marooned' and are happy with their lot. FlyBe and easyJet have the following in common. Neither are the best nor are they the worst to work for. Both have many who are happy and both have a fair number who would wish to move on.

Just to reiterate from my previous post, I am proof that the door is far from closed for 'ex-pats' being able to return home and work again in the UK.

[Serenity]

""Now that is a rather cantankerous and arrogant statement. Those that I know at FlyBe do not feel 'marooned' and are happy with their lot. FlyBe and easyJet have the following in common. Neither are the best nor are they the worst to work for. Both have many who are happy and both have a fair number who would wish to move on.""

The last part of this statement is true, but the feeling at Flybe over the way we are being exploited by management for lower wages is really starting to strongly annoy people to put it mildly!!
If easy recruited DEP and put the Q400 inthe approved list they would be trampled if the rush from Flybe!!
Easy have an advanced product to Flybe and for their hard work easypilots get 20 to 30 grand a year more and better t&c!!
Most Flybe pilots have eyes and cv's elsewhere and that's from both seats!!

[mikehammer]

Don't listen to NSF!

In spite of your somewhat opinionated argument, I have read much of what NSF has said in the past and found him to be both eloquent and persuasive (which doesn't mean I always agree with him). I have no vested interest in this discussion, nevertheless I remain interested. I therefore have no intention other than to read his reply and will make no apology for so doing.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Doug the Head - always a pleasure. As one who hates and despises easyJet, which of course you are entitled to do, what mystifies me is why you are still here. There are numerous opportunities to go elsewhere, and some great guys are heading off out the door of easyJet. Why are you not joining them? You feel I have some relationship with our management that simply does not exist, but we are all entitled to our little fantasies to brighten up those dark nights at easyJet. I have a realistic view of life here - which includes both the good and the bad. For all its numerous hassles, I fundamentally enjoy it and will therefore stay. You hate it and therefore you should leave - it really is that simple.

Love them or hate them, our managers are the people with whom we have to deal. I do not like our Ops Director any more than any other pilot at easyJet, but have no doubt he will be soon be drying his eyes on Fifty Pound notes on the way out the door. My point is that all airlines are full of money-grabbing, bonus-hunting losers trying to make a quick buck over two or three years before clearing off to their next burglary. All airlines are also full of whining, bleating negative pilots who have hated every company they have ever worked for and would only be happy if their company went bankrupt - you are that man Doug. The idea that easyJet is the only company in that category is clearly nonsense and I am therefore happy to fight it out here.

There is much pontificating on here about the evils of low-cost and that is fine if that is what floats your boat. The fact is that there are literally thousands of pilots in jet jobs now who would never had had them were it not for low-cost. Does that mean we should accept the constant attacks on our terms and conditions? Absolutely not. Does that mean that we should accept the crazy and ludicrous actions of incompetent managers who can save thousands but lose millions through their own foolishness? Not a chance. What it does mean is taking part in credible and professional dialogue with the team you have to play against, rather than the one you wish you were playing instead. What gives me so little patience for this constant negative 'I hate easyJet' drivel is that it is completely problem-centric rather than offering solutions to the real difficulties we face. That does not mean we should deny the existence of the problems, but it does mean we should work to see them resolved rather than throw our hands in the air and just surrender without a fight.

So go on Doug, and your numpty mate superced - get a proper job in Utopian Airways where your 'talents' will be fully appreciated, they will pay you twice as money for doing half the work, give you 10 weeks' leave in the summer and pay 25% into your pension and give you bonuses just like the management. I know that company is out there - I keep looking every week in Flight International but somehow the advert just keeps getting ripped out before the postman delivers it.

[superced]

NSF you don't want to stop just for a while with your orange propaganda....that doesnt work anymore.


Doug agree with you at 500%.

[Starbear]

Something that has always caught my eye about EasyJet's T&Cs is the 90% salary for six months after gaining command, whether DEC or internal upgrade. I am intrigued to know firstly how managent spin their justification of this and secondly why this was ever accepted/tolerated by the pilots or Balpa or their predecessors.

Just to repeat this a genuine question.

[Binder]

And with many trainers complaining that they are having to teach FlexiCrew guys basic handling skills one wonders how long before the situation is reviewed. Not so long ago 1500 hrs turbo prop was required before one got any where near a jet.

I just wonder where guys & gals with so called third tier operators now move on to.

Binder

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Superced - you managed a whole sentence this time. Congratulations.

Binder - since the dawn of the airline industry, trainers have had to teach basic handling skills to low-houred pilots. The same could be said of British Airways guys and the numerous other airlines who take on cadets. There is, however, the wider issue of the limited employment practices we have used for the past few years. My own view is that we have made a huge mistake taking such high quantities of cadets rather than employing some genuinely experienced people from a wider variety of backgrounds. Specifically we should have taken turboprop and military pilots - neither groups of which we have touched for some years now.

Starbear - the 50% for 6 months has been the case for many years now (at least 7 but maybe longer). In recent times, the temporary contracts on offer have been different in that you get 100% from the start plus an additional £2k/month for 5 months. Many captains have done very well on that scheme and are now nearly all on permanent contracts having missed out on the 90% bit at the beginning.

Regarding the issue of returning from the desert to the UK, the issue is that few companies are currently recruiting experienced pilots. Therefore the way back to the UK that existed a few years ago is simply not there. That is no reflection on the quality of the individuals - we have some great ex-Emirates guys working for us. It is merely stating the reality of the situation right now. That may of course change, but right now the situation is not good for a return to Blighty.

EasyJet is not for everyone. There are nonethelss significant numbers of pilots who like working there despite the ups and downs of our summer programme this year. I look in Flight International every week like we all do, but I just do not see a host of fantastic jobs out there that would be better than the one I already have.

[superced]

easyJet is not for everyone : (Human....).

that's true NSF.

[speedbird462]

NSF :D
totally agree with you.

[Doug the Head]

'Speedbird'462, do you any idea what you are talking about? :hmm:

[speedbird462]

'Speedbird'462, do you any idea what you are talking about? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gifwell....
I am just expressing my opinion from reading the various Ezy threads, out of interest may I add and not as an Ezy pilot myself. I assume that the verb missing in your sentence is 'have' and thank you for taking the time to ask, very kind.
This is a public thread and, correct me if I'm wrong, everyone is entitled to have and express their opinion? by the tone of your post, I gather you have already made the pressumption of what I know or do not know. You obviously have some special skills.

[Doug the Head]

Sure, everybody is entitled to his/her opinion.

Obviously NSF and I have totally different standpoints, however, we both do substantiate our points of view!
We just arrive at different conclusions... ;)

Posts like yours are nothing but fluff/pagefiller and contribute the square root of :mad:

[speedbird462]

I wonder whether I would have had such an impetuous response if I had said I agreed with you, of course that would have been a much more valuable contribution to the content of this thread. I apologise in advance for the waste of space my posts have taken from other much more substantial ones. I personally don't feel the need to elaborate the reasons why I agree with NSF but since you showed interest, I will. In essence I appreciate his positive attitude and willingness to make things right/better and not spending days in misery and wishing you were somewhere else where the grass is 'obviously' always greener.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

RHINO
I think the statement about airlines looking at reducing crew costs refers to all airlines please don't be that naive. My own personal opinion is that EZY got it's fingers burned on crew numbers this summer and won't risk doing it again so numbers will increase which equates more jobs / Commands etc. I also think going after the fixed roster would be the biggest mistake Ezy would ever make and would only be drive by a combination of beancounters or misguided Managers driven by bonus culture as NSF so well puts.
D the H and superced - least NSF comes over well unlike you two no-hopers.
You need to move on the grass is green (although funnily enough i imagine 90% of my Airlines crew would jump to Easy for a fixed roster)
:\

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I also think going after the fixed roster would be the biggest mistake Ezy would ever make and would only be drive by a combination of beancounters or misguided Managers driven by bonus culture as NSF so well puts.


I agree but the problem is you have pretty much described our upper echelons of management with the second half of your sentence. Although I don't agree with much of what Doug the Head says he does make some (unfortunately) valid points regarding the future rostering situation. Random rosters are already upon us and will continue as the company grows. All new cadets now join on a 2/3 year random pattern (as do all new cabin crew). I have it on good authority that Lyon is to be the next pilot base to be opened and it will be offered on a random roster only. Also any contract that would be offered were Lisbon to open any time soon. Internal command upgrades will be targeted for a random pattern and it is a matter of time before the management go after our smaller bases and offers them a "random roster or we review the viability of your base" deal. Also as Doug mentioned, the huge uptake of people willing to accept a random roster for extra cash has given HQ pause for thought and I am sure they will again offer similar deals in the future and before we know it a majority % of the pilot establishment will be working "flexi".

I am sure Balpa will oppose any such moves but the board knows this and will come after the fixed pattern in stealth mode. Ultimately I do think there will be enough poeple willing to give up a fixed pattern to move to their base of choice/earn more cash, or even just get a job with us as a new starter, to put the future of the fixed pattern in serious doubt. I would hope that the roster pattern is one thing those of us in balpa will actually stand together on - we shall see :hmm:

[Dan 98]

Well i for one find it really disappointing that the fixed roster is something that is potentially on its way out, certainly for new starters and under threat for existing pilots. I don't work for Easy but always looked at them as a company that would be worth getting to for the better T&C's, fixed roster, modern fleet and seemingly a happy work force!!!!!

Having only ever experienced a flexi roster at another low cost airline I can certainly see the huge benifit a fixed roster would offer, not just in terms of reduced fatigue (ie: never working 6 days in a row starting on earlies for 3 days, swapping to lates on day 4, then finishing on a late on day 6 and having 2 days off followed by an early), the ability to plan your life more than 4 weeks in advance which is a huge bonus in this industry especially with a family.....:ugh:

I wonder if some people won't realise what they have until they've worked a full summer on a flexi roster and it is gone and all for the sake of a few extra £££...

Stand up and fight to keep it.....:ok:

[Dani]

Working 6 on 2 off with early start and late end is not what I expect from a fixed roster system. Can't be worse in Easy...

[flying headbutt]

Chatted to someone coming to the end of his cash for random roster pattern - he won't be doing it again, not worth doing, too knackered - looked it too. The fixed pattern is knackering enough for flips sake, a couple of years of random...unsustainable long term me thinks:yuk:

[superced]

seemingly a happy work force!!!!!

of course.....:suspect:

[Dan 98]

Chatted to someone coming to the end of his cash for random roster pattern - he won't be doing it again, not worth doing, too knackered - looked it too. The fixed pattern is knackering enough for flips sake, a couple of years of random...unsustainable long term me thinks

Well hopefully they'll be many more like him thinking and feeling the same!!!

Mind you don't know why i am getting my hopes up it doesn't look like Easy will be doing any recruitment for experienced FO's anyway...

[Doug the Head]

Chatted to someone coming to the end of his cash for random roster pattern - he won't be doing it again, not worth doing, too knackered - looked it too. The fixed pattern is knackering enough for flips sake, a couple of years of random...unsustainable long term me thinks:yuk:Well hopefully they'll be many more like him thinking and feeling the same!!! The big problem is that every year there will always be new gullible idiots who will throw caution to the wind and give it a try. Throw in a command or a prospect of his/her very first 'McJob' in aviation, and a flexible roster take-it-or-leave-it deal will appear sweet enough for some...

After this summer, the thin end of the wedge is inserted and another one of Pandora's boxes has opened. Wouldn't it have been better to let things come to a grinding halt? Perhaps only then, any company (especially "career" airlines! ;)) will be 'motivated' enough to make sure that it won't happen again in the long run? Instead, the jello-spined workforce fell for the Doomsday scenario that the world was going to end, economically speaking that is. Subsequently, many sold their soul to the Devil for a few extra quid and pushed the fatigue envelop even further...in the wrong direction! :ouch:

Two sayings spring to mind;

1) "Don't let a good crisis go to waste." (management)
2) "There's a sucker born every minute" (employees)

:ugh:

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I cannot agree with that perspective Doug. The Doomsday scenario you describe was indeed there. Through a fateful combination of greed, wishful thinking and total incompetence we managed to run seriously short of pilots this summer. I believe in the next few weeks heads will roll for that, and rightly so. Nonetheless, given that we had this mess we all needed to do anything we safely could to rescue the situation. I do not apologise to anyone for selling back leave and working into discretion on several occasions recently, partly to help the company and partly to help our customers. And, yes, I gained financially from it, which I have no problems with either. Not a single colleague was disadvantaged by it and it had to be done to sort out the mess. Clearly the undergirding principle had to be safety first, and it always was. It is worth reflecting on the significant damage to our reputation that has occurred this summer - and that is with the enormous efforts of the pilots and cabin crew who put all hands on decks. Had we followed your advice to somehow punish the company, we would have done incalculable damage to easyJet and, by association, ourselves. I do not like any more than you do the PR disaster of this summer. What I cannot go along with is the almost deliberate desire to create even greater mayhem just because we could. I am in the business of making easyJet successful, because in the end if easyJet goes down the we all go down with it. That is just plain common sense to me.

[Doug the Head]

Not a single colleague was disadvantaged by it and it had to be done to sort out the mess. Not in 2010, but perhaps in the near future if they start to introduce bases built on a flexible roster contract?

You've said that you only have a few more year till retirement, but what about the 20-30 year old colleagues who still have to work a few more decades? Did you ever consider the long term consequences of your short term gains/actions for their sake? Perhaps you're happy in LGW, but perhaps there are hundreds of colleagues who one day hope for a (for example) ATH base. Or what about the starter of this thread, who paid his dues and perhaps one day hopes to join on a fixed roster? Would you still be able to look into a mirror and say "not a single colleague was disadvantaged by it" if one day they offer a take-it-or-leave-it 'flexible roster only' contract for a popular new base or existing bases for new-joiners?Had we followed your advice to somehow punish the company, we would have done incalculable damage to easyJet and, by association, ourselves. So the company has you over a barrel? No matter how badly they f*ck things up, good 'ol Norman is there to bail them out? It's your job to drive the plane Norman, not to permanently cover for someone's planning blunders.

All people like you did this summer is to help the company paper over the ugly side (short term) and help them insert the thin end of the wedge (long term) with regards to the fixed roster pattern. :ugh:

[Doug the Head]

I cannot agree with that perspective Doug. Somehow I didn't think you would! ;)

[RHINO]

Mr Angry from Purley,

Naive...I laughed

Go and have a read about what the board have been saying regarding 'fatigue' and it's management. You will then see clearly why the fixed roster is under attack.

Maybe you won't....

[Whippersnapper]

It all sounds very much like several years ago when they introduced the Carmen rostering software and then sat back for months not bothering to fix it, having set the software up incorrectly (they blamed the software, but the fault was how it was configured). Fatigue was a massive problem back then, so much so that the CAA were following about 100 roster patterns in a quiet study (including mine, as it turned out - I found that out from the Flt Safety office when my doctor grounded me for three weeks for fatigue).

The way I see it, with the legacy airlines specifically targeting EZY and RYR senior FOs and Capts, the fatigue levels and the unstable rosters, there is no way EZY will be able to recruit at a pace to match the departures. Let's not forget that it takes upto six months to recruit experienced crews from another company and get them on line, but only three months for them to leave.

They are already well behind on pilot numbers, and with that creating the rostering and fatigue problems, conditions will continue to deteriorate and force exponentially more pilots to leave as time progresses. I think they're going to have to come up with some fairly impressive incentives to stop the resignations. RYR have the same problem, though to a much lesser extent, with a small shortage of promotion eligible FOs, but with quite a few already leaving to EK and more talking about it. RYR are keeping their 100% fixed patterns (no reserve/random months), which is at least one reason for many fence-sitters to stay, but if they're facing shortages, then EZY looks like it's facing a crisis.

I really hope they can sort it out, because it has the potential to cripple or even sink the company, which would obviously be bad not only for the employees and punters, but for terms and conditions elsewhere as a flood of experienced crew hit the jobs market again. Well constructed rosters will benefit the company by achieving 900 hours per year from each pilot while ensuring a fixed pattern to minimise fatigue and illness, thus reducing the number of standby crew needed, and with the spin off of increased quality of life and morale for the pilots. It's a zero-cost, high benefit issue. If RYR can recognise that, then what the hell is wrong with the EZY managers?

[penally]

I don't work for Easyjet but it makes for interesting reading and similiar scenes are enacted in countless Airlines around the World.
NSF, you are absolutely correct, 'Love them or hate them, our managers are the people with whom we have to deal'. So deal with them. So far you've just dished up excuses why you shouldn't.
As for Doug being the enemy - Brother you're facing the wrong way.

[eagle21]

EZY are starting to offer permanent positions to their experience flexicrew pilots as of today, but trying to send the to Paris, Berlin... Most of these pilots are UK related and will not be accepting these positions. With Emirates coming to Gatwick on the 20th of September and the likes of Virgin and BA recruiting in the next 6 months. Easyjet really need to stop laughing on our faces

[EGCC4284]

Flight Deck Crew Requirements | Qatar Airways (http://www.qatarairways.com/global/en/flightdeck-req.html)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Rhino sorry i was trying to say that all airlines come out with the crew costs and efficiencies not just your mob. The problem (from experience) is if you go light on crews then a fixed roster can grind the airline to a halt whereas a flexible one can keep it going for a little longer. The efficiency maybe for example moving towards a Ryanair type pattern (noting whipsnaps comments).
I'm sure the "consultants" will come up with something novel.

My own personal opinion is EZY have created the problem themselves, target and bonus driven rather than focusing on maintaining crew numbers. Now they are in a hole they are back tracking on their FRMS principles (although they have created a monster) and all they have learned. Moving to random rosters isn't the answer for sure....

[st nicholas]

Having just survived the cull up at NCL and mighty grateful I am. I will now not extend the company anything extra. I am happy to do single engine taxi out/in.
However the APU stays on during turnround to create a more comfortable work environment. Discretion is an absolute no no before leaving home base on a 4 sector day and I am now seriously tempted to refuse on the final sector. I would prefer that to filling out a fatigue report. It would also demonstrate the correct crewing balance needed to operate our ambitious route pairings.

[Dan 98]

I think you make sense. The more people who pull out all the stops all the time to make unrealistic over ambitious schedules work just prove to the bean counters their penny pinching cuts work and so all there'll do is cut more.....:ugh:

I can see the two sides to the argument about working with the company (Management) mainly NSF and Doug who i think by the looks of it don't agree on much but both raise good points even if they are at the opposite end of oposing opinions!!

I think most pilots are professional individuals and a certain amount of disruption comes with the territory, but if that disruption is continually caused by managements short sightedness then i think it is right at some point to say no :mad:off!

I expect most airlines have operated at the minimum crew levels this summer with no fat in the system at all and taken advantage of crews goodwill, certainly the case where I am.

I really hope that all the companies (not just Easy) take a look at the disruption caused by lack of crews and over ambitious schedules and get levels back up for next year. :confused:

I think sometimes pilots forget that airlines wouldn't get very far without us, yet we are extremely good at selling ourselves short and seeing the gradual erosion of the very few good things left, a fixed roster at Easy being one of them!!!

If ever there was a time to stand up and reinstall some pride back into what we do now is the time with the current recruitment going on in the Middle East for the foreseeable future, UK companies must be starting to get a little concerned about experience going to the sand!! Then again they probably don't think that far ahead, what was i thinking.............:E

[judge11]

"I really hope that all the companies (not just Easy) take a look at the disruption caused by lack of crews and over ambitious schedules and get levels back up for next year."

They won't until you all stop going into discretion, stop working 'days-off', agreeing to the occasional extra sector etc. And that requires a unified approach from all the pilot (and cabin crew) workforce.

While you do go that 'extra mile', you will get no thanks from your management and they will carry on with whatever they can get away with, safe in the knowledge that the workforce will do nothing. All you are achieving is perpetuating and concealing the incompetence and greed of your managers.

The only thing any management understands is when nothing gets airborne on Monday morning - you'd be amazed how quickly they'll come running to the table. Just take a look of the modus operandi of the rail sector workers and see how quiclky the threatened strike by BAA employees was resolved.:D

[RB311]

Regarding bean counters and the way they run businesses, and the (often) disastrous results that occur is based on the way said bean counters have become more (unduly) influential in running a company.

It is not just in aviation where a accountant's qualification somehow brings with it expertise in all areas of business from sales, marketing, HR, operations, manufacturing, after-sales etc etc.

Instead of concentrating on "keeping score", which is the fundamental purpose of an accountant, they play with spreadsheets all day cutting back capital expenditure here and there and then reporting to the board how wonderful they are because they have saved £xxx and get a pat on the back from all around the table..

Consequences from these actions, such as not investing in the correct amount of crew, ie cancelled flights, overstretched employess etc and then simply tackled as and when (and intentionally if) they happen...

It's the "we'll cross that bridge if we come to it" method of management...

Until a fundamental rethink of the way business are financed and run by executive boards is imposed and implemented there will be no change to the way businesses are run.

For what it's worth, I think that company boards should in their corporate governance rules always have to plan and implement policies that (with the best of intentions) should ensure company success for the next 25 years. This would readdress the balance quite quickly from fast buck earning by short term careerist board members to the employees of the company that actually ensure the business runs day to day, and who's goodwill is constantly mined by beancounters' decisions...

Sorry it's a bit rambling, but I hope you get the idea.

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

Back to Easyjet - still B..... All on their website... in fact references to 2009 are still there along with a few cobwebs. I wonder if anything's going to change come Wednesday?!!

[The Flying Cokeman]

Eagle 21, Not many of the flexicrew pilots meet the min. requirements to apply for Emirates- so it certainly won't be them leaving. About the new EZY contracts offered is a different story.

[EGCC4284]

For Qatar Airways, you only need 1000 hours jet time

[Emma Ritz]

EGCC4284 - if you think that EZY roster patterns are fatiguing, or that your management are aggressive and incompetent, then best you don't even mention the "Q" word until you have first hand experience of both :(

[Doug the Head]

Now that's a real quality airline, widely known for it's excellent treatment of crews... := :ugh: :yuk: :rolleyes:

[Dan 98]

TSandPSintheGREEN

Back to Easyjet - still B..... All on their website... in fact references to 2009 are still there along with a few cobwebs. I wonder if anything's going to change come Wednesday?!!

What is happening on Wednesday??

Cheers:ok:

[Sean Dillon]

Would also like to know what's happening on Wed?!?

Qatar Airways is the place desperate pilots go! We still know, albeit with lots of improvement, EZY will not be Europe's answer to Qatar!

[JPHIL68]

still on the holding pool with more than 4000 hrs ,ha ha ha ha it s so funny

:ok::ok: pitiful:cool:

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

JPHIL68 - I think to call yourself pitiful is a little harsh. I think it is more a question of just being totally uninformed. EasyJet have not taken anyone out of the hold pool for years because the hold pool is dead and buried - totally defunct. I realise to many people that is a disappointment, but that is the way it is.

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

I heard they were starting to open their recruitment page as of 1 Sept, but as usual - :mad: rumour!!

Current Vacancies
Thank you for your interest in joining easyJet.

Our requirements for 2010 have been met and all recruitment activities are complete.

[cargodogs]

"Qatar Airways is the place desperate pilots go!"

I resent that statement. I know it's not everyone's cuppa, but to call me (and everyone else) desperate is very arrogant. I HAVE a stable roster, I HAVE a family life, I HAVE 10-14 days off a month (not including stby's, which we're almost never called on), I HAVE a decent salary, and I DON'T get fatigued, I live in a house I could only dream of back home, I drive a car I never even knew existed.

I'm happy where I am, and my family is happy. What's so desperate about that?