Virgin Atlantic Pilots to ballot for Industrial action

[converse340]

Pilots at Virgin Atlantic are apparently about to be balloted on Industrial action. The dispute which has rumbled on quietly for some months is finally coming to a head.

BALPA (the Pilots union) claims that Virgin Atlantic management are violating their industrial agreement by reducing the annual entitlement of "Rostered Days Off" if they go sick or take leave? Currently Virgin Pilots are entitled to 120 rostered days off + annual leave. BALPA contends the 120 Rostered days off are the Pilots weekends. So the frequently asked question is; do Mon-Fri/office staff have their Saturdays and Sundays taken away from them if they go sick or take leave during the working week? No, of course they don't. So why do Virgin Atlantic think it is right to do this to their Pilots. Particularly if it is clearly against the rules of their industrial agreement? Perhaps Virgin believe that at the moment the unions are weak and an easy target in their efforts to reduce costs.

This dispute is apparently just one of a string of issues that Virgin Atlantic Pilots have with their management. The Pilots assert that over the last 2 years they have "bent over backwards" to help the company through some of the toughest times the airline industry has ever faced. They have sacrificed pay and overtime to reduce redundancies. Some Pilots have voluntarily reduced their hours and some have been forced to take sabbaticals. But it is widely known that Virgin Atlantic management have a history of taking advantage of union concessions. It now seems that this latest dispute will prove to be "The straw that broke the Camels back". The Pilots are fed up with the current style of "Management by imposition", some believe there is a clear and present ambition to break the union.

Evidence of a far reaching and very well planned retaliation campaign by BALPA is now starting to come to the surface. Stickers with the slogan "Hands Off our Days Off" have been appearing far and wide around the Virgin network. Numerous CD's of video presentations are in circulation. And a flurry of BALPA news letters have been dropping through letter boxes. Support has evidently been easy to gather as many have become disillutioned with a few of their management figures and it now seems that the Pilots are about to deliver the ultimate industrial message.

Both sides have so far been keen to keep the dispute under wraps as all are conscious of how a dispute could hinder the recovery from the effects of recession, but alas all the talking seems to have failed and it looks set to go to a ballot for industrial action. And there is little doubt as to the result.

But the solution to this dispute is so blindingly obvious that it has dumbfounded all those involved, leaving only one conclusion. Virgin are trying to bust the union.

[Sir George Cayley]

How many duty hours a year typically for Virgin crew?

Sir George Cayley

[Avman]

Surely, high income Virgin Atlantic pilots couldn't possibly consider taking industrial action which would inconvenience thousands of passengers. It just wouldn't be professional. It is my understanding, through pilot comments on these forums, that only Spanish controllers can be so unprofessional :E

[Touch'n'oops]

It's wonder what all the fuss is about working for Virgin.

I'd rather eat my own head!

AVMAN: Pilot's don't start riots while at work, that's the difference. I'm referring to 'the' video!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Converse - you might need to go into more detail
52 weeks @ 2 (sat+sun) = 104. Where does the 120 come from average 10 days off a month or??
When taking leave do Crew take Mon-Fri (5 days) and have the Sat-Sun either side as off days which are part of the 120?.
Is the dispute over average days off per month or year. I can understand if days off are pro rata'd down when on leave / sick i.e. you couldn't expect to have 10 days off a month when you also have 2 weeks leave...
I don't know how much leave VS crews have but guessing at say 30 with 120 days off that seems low for a purely L/H roster (just back from JFK as a pax so sympathy high today..):\

[BA 77]

Has the ballot been confirmed yet because I can't find any mention of it elsewhere on the internet?

[Boomerang]

Mr Angry, add public holidays as well.

[spannersatcx]

104 + 8 = 112 still 8 short!:eek:

[main_dog]

Are we really comparing days off with people who have the luxury of coming home every night after work, see their family every day and always sleep in their own bed? ;)

[Deep and fast]

If it states in your contract you are entitled to 120 days rostered free of duty, that's what you should get.

Sick days are not necessarily rostered days off. If you are on a part time contract, then pro rata works.

All companies are taking the piss now, time is coming to show them a little militancy.

D and F :hmm:

[170to5]

Just an observation...you can probably omit the last sentence in your first post, converse. at this point, from what we all see and hear we can take it for granted that the people who claim to know what's 'best for the airline' (note: CLAIM to know what's best) are ALWAYS trying to break the unions!

Fair play to the Virgin guys. Hope they get what they deserve, it's a sad and slippery slope the industry is on at the moment.

[Heavy operator]

Just so as the "know it alls" (who actually don't) can get some grip on the reality of the situation, this is a dispute about agreements and contracts, not just "days off" as the "ignoranti" would have you believe. In order to simplify it and dilute it into something more "soundbitish" that the "ignoranti" can perhaps grasp, you will need to understand some of the nuances of long-haul flying and the rostering procedure.

Again, simply putting it (for the ignoranti" of course), the pilots receive a roster approximately two weeks before the following month so that they can paln their lives and their days off. On the rosters there are "Rostered Days Off" (RDO) and "Non Rostered Days Off" (NRD). An NRD is a day off that you have no control over. They are only ever rostered the day after a trip. For example, the shortest long-haul trip is three days long. Day one you operate out to destination. Day two you operate back from destination but it is usually overnight (at least when eastbound) and you arrive back on day three. The rest of day three is a "rest day".

Once again, for the "ignoranti" the jet-lag associated with long-haul flying does have an effect on your lifestyle and it is not simply a case of arriving back home and just getting on with it. Normally, on a one night (three day) trip you would get a minimum of two days off after the trip. However, if you are delayed down route and you arrive a day later than planned, and, if the "day off" (fourth day) after your trip is rostered as an NRD you are not entitled to any compensation for having worked on a day off. Likewise, should you arrive at work before the trip and they require you to operate a two night trip (four days instead of three), you would not be compensated for working the fourth day.

So, in order to differentiate, between RDOs and NRDs, the company can require you to work on an NRD. It is not a day off that you can plan ahead with. Whilst delays down route are unavoidable from time to time, you could end up working an extra day. If it was an RDO then you would be entitled to compensation. However, if your one night trip (three days) has an RDO rostered after it and you arrive at work and they tell you you are now going on a two night trip (four days) you can politely decline or accept compensation.

In the agreement signed between the flight ops management and BALPA at Virgin Atlantic, it clearly states that the pilots will be rostered 120 "RDOs" a rostering year. It is only reduced on a yearly basis by ten days for each standby month a pilot is rostered. On a monthly basis, the number of RDOs can be reduced by one day for every three days annual leave or three days sickness. However, the short fall of 120 RDO's has to be made up over the rostering year. All the company has to do to get this right is change some NRDs into RDOs which they have suddenly been doing. However, the flight ops management have decided to challenge BALPA over their interpretation of the agreement and have cynically stated that if a pilot does not work over an NRD then that "retrospectively" becomes an RDO!!!

So, for the "ignoranti", the long haul pilots do not have the luxury of those who work 9-5 Monday to Friday. They do not know what days off they will be working more than six weeks ahead. They like to have some stability over their lives and therefore would like their flight ops management to stick to the agreements that they have signed with them. This dispute is only one of several that are simmering in the background since the current flight ops management team decided that they were on a roll after breaking the cabin crew and the engineers unions (and subsequent lack of them).

The pilots are not "militant" and they are not stupid. They have all worked hard to get to where they are. They all put in the effort and the time with other airlines over the years. They are a goal oriented workforce who never fail to pull out all the stops to get their aircraft and passengers to to their destinations when, invariably, something goes wrong (more often than not due to management incompetence). Their flight ops management, however, have decided that they can break the union and thereby erode the pilots terms and conditions at will. With around 95% BALPA membership together with dedicated and hard working reps, the pilots are resolved to show their flight ops management that they will not accept these methods. The flight ops management think that their pilots do not have the resolve. The pilots know that they do.

If it ever gets to ballot, then perhaps their flight ops management will realise that they are in a no-win situation. The pilots hope that their flight ops managers come to their senses before their own bosses realise that they have to deal with the damaging results of possible industrial action. The pilots do not want this fight and it is not necessary if the flight ops management stick to the agreements in place.

[The Big Easy]

'In the agreement signed between the flight ops management and BALPA at Virgin Atlantic, it clearly states that the pilots will be rostered 120 "RDOs" a rostering year. It is only reduced on a yearly basis by ten days for each standby month a pilot is rostered'.

If the above is true. I fail to see how the VS management can win this debate!
Good luck to all the Guys and Gals at VS, its about time someone stopped the erosion of Pilots T&C's.

[Basil]

HO,
Yes, after retirement it was great to be able to plan ahead.
Not wishing to get into a Monty Python four Yorkshiremen comparison but, in my last outfit, when I mentioned our roster, the boss said "I didn't know you read fiction!"
Unlike many, I was in a position where I could resign and that's what I did.

[B747bill]

Over the last 5 years we have very slowly seen our T's and C's picked at by different managers, the more senior ones have repeatedly tried to sideline or just ignore our agreements and I have had enough of this "death by a thousand cuts". For some time now I have been totally against helping the company out. This went totally against my beliefs, but as my management do not seem to care about how my homelife is affected by never being home at weekends, never getting any satisfactory bids, always missing birthdays and anniversaries, continually being pestered on my days off as we clearly do not have enough pilots, repeated 95hr rosters and not getting over time. I can think of no finer way to voice my discontent than by giving myself some extra days off! Bring on the ballot! From what I see at work just about everyone feels the same. Which is a shame as we could have a really nice little outfit with everyone more than happy to their bit and probably a bit more when needed. But that is not the case right now.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Heavy - had converse put it like that then there would be no questions from the "ignoranti".
main_dog - guess so, last year i had 99 days off and leave as a "ignoranti 9 to 5 er" (in fact a 0900-2030 er)
Compare that to a VS pilot on 120 days off + 30? days leave - yeah why not bring it on....
:\:\

[main_dog]

main_dog - guess so, last year i had 99 days off and leave as a "ignoranti 9 to 5 er" (in fact a 0900-2030 er)


Well then you're not the typical 9-5 office staff that was being referred to... perhaps you should have obtained an ATPL? :}

But if it's days off you seek, I wouldn't recommend it: there are fewer and fewer of those for pilots industry-wide. And aside from those "lucky" low-cost pilots, remember most nights you'll still be sleeping in some hotel instead of your own bed... :{

[call100]

Amazing how people with less think that everyone should drop down to their level instead of pulling themselves up....That is why the industry is going to hell in a hand cart!
Good luck to all the Virgin Pilots in defending their agreements...

[vsflight]

Huh. Reason we can't get the trips/leave/ days off we want is that the management take them all. Weekends off? Only if you're an office pilot. Nepotism? You bet. Oh and what about the World Cup trip? It was supposed to be done fairly in order that anyone could bid for the flight. What happened? A senior trainer turned up at the last minute and took the flight.
There's even a senior manager who hasn't flown for a couple of years still calls himself captain. Egotistic?
These are just a couple of other examples why folks like me are totally fed up.

[ASRAAM]

If the agreement is in place then perhaps legal action is the way ahead. It would retain far more public support that industrial action.

[Fatboy Ginge]

Heavy operator.

What a well written and extremely well explained post. It took me a couple of reads to fully understand it but that's me (as a lowly HGV driver).

It's sad to see that in so many places management "techniques" are merely another term for bullying. I count the company I work for in this as well.

For too many years "management" (and I use the term in it's loosest sense) have relied on the professionalism you show to get the job done and now their credit appears to have run out.

You have my suppport and if you want to get up senior managements noses just let me know and I'll park my 45' trailer across a few drives. (only joking for those who have a SOH reduction)

[farefield]

ASRAAM

Legal action could take years,bouncing back and forth from court to court.

Pilots know that they'll never get sympathy or support from Daily Mail readers unless it involves a safety issue so there's no point in looking for it.

Pilots in a company generally have a desire for that company to succeed in the long term because of the seniority system and therefore do not want to jeapordise that co's future.However people can eventually reach a limit with what they'll put up with and the dire level of managers within Virgin has brought that limit here.

The daily telegraph says about the VAA CEO in the fuel surcharge fixing case:

"Ridgway himself has admitted to the crimes the BA defendants denied – hardly the sort of thing the chief executive of any company, never mind an airline, should have on their CV."

Virgin wrote off £70 million to pay for that case (lawyers,compensation etc) so the cancellation of a few flights is not going to bring the company down but I suppose that's what they'll tell the rest of the employees to try to divide and rule.

[Sir George Cayley]

At the start of this thread I asked what a typical annual amount of duty hours VS crew accrue? Reason was that, if VS management are as it reads to me, squeezing more out existing numbers of crew, how that sits with CAP371?

There's no agenda to this, I have contacts in a number of long haul operators so have a feel for the spread of hours across differing airlines, I just don't know anyone at VS to ask :confused:

Sir George Cayley

[Heavy operator]

SGC, this not about duty hours or even a lack of days off. It is an attempt by a weak and ineffectual management, peppered with some megalomania and a few bullies to try and weaken the BALPA representation amongst the pilot workforce. Most pilots believe that the management attitude filters down from the very highest levels.

Considering that it appears to be a pre-requisite for a senior management role within Virgin Atlantic to have some kind of relationship or even an extra-marital affair with either a member of the cabin crew or an employee within the flight ops department, it leaves the integrity of many managers in serious doubt. Again, this is all filtered down from the very highest levels of management within Virgin Atlantic.

The fact is that the pilots have a scheduling agreement with the company which, whilst sometimes a bit confusing, does clearly lay down how their lives are used by the company and how they can get some protection in order to have some useful lifestyle when not on duty. The scheduling agreement is an industrial agreement negotiated and signed by both parties, the Virgin Atlantic management and the pilots elected representative body, the BALPA Company Council.

In 1999 the company entered into a Recognition Agreement with BALPA which means that they will have to negotiate on the pilots terms and conditions. Recently, the flight ops management have resorted to stating that they will only discuss pay, hours and holidays which absolutely goes against the recognition agreement which specifically states terms and conditions. If this alone is not evidence of a breach of agreement then you have to ask yourself "what are the current management trying to achieve?".

None of the pilots are arguing that they do not get at least 120 days free of duty a year. Invariably, because of the type of flying and the size of the fleets and the number of destinations, the pilots will get more than the minimum. The point is, however, how those days free of duty are rostered so that they can plan their lives when not on duty.

It is all very well the "ignoranti" harping on about how lucky those pilots are having so much time off. The pilots and anyone else who has at least a basic understanding of what permanent long-haul flying is about will know that not knowing what days you will be working more than six weeks ahead, can and does have serious consequences on your home life. It is not even similar to some shift workers who, at least, know what their days off, years ahead, will be because of the regularity of their shift changes such as four on four off.

Before the other "ignoranti" jump up and start to compare their working lives with the "flying duty hours" of the Virgin Atlantic pilots who have an agreement in place to limit them to 760 a year, those hours only refer to the time they push back from stand on departure to the time they arrive on stand at their destination. Those hours do not include the many hours before pushback that they report for duty, often at a different airport from the one they will depart from, the many hours spent on training and refresher courses, the days and hours spent deadheading to or from destinations or between them and the hours often spent positioning either to their home base or a hotel that is often a long way from the destination airport.

Again, before the "ignoranti" cry foul and try to compare positioning duty or deadheading as some kind of luxury they should remember that it is all time working at the behest of the company. If the pilot is fortunate enough to deadhead in a premium cabin, it is still time working at the behest of the company and not at home with family or taking care of the multitude of other things that go in to having a life other than work. More importantly, spending as much time as the pilots do in hotels, the quality of which, in many cases is barely acceptable at best, the "novelty" soon wears off as they realise what home comforts really mean.

There will always be multitude of "ignoranti" who assume that the lifestyle of the long-haul pilot is one of glamour. This assumption is not helped by lazy journalists and reporters who perpetuate this assumption. Maybe twenty or thirty years ago, long before the beancounters empowered themselves, it was such. Today, with the bonus oriented management style and the ever cutting "efficiencies" as they like to call them, the glamour is all gone. If you believe the adverts you see on television, you will appreciate that it is "all fur coat and no knickers". This is especially so at Virgin Atlantic.

So, to recap, the planned ballot over industrial action by the pilots of Virgin Atlantic is over interpretation of an agreement about rostered days off. The solution is simple. Abide by the agreement. The easiest and simplest way to achieve that is by rostering less NRDs and more RDOs. On average, only one NRD has to be changed to an RDO each month and the agreement is kept. However, the current flight ops management have stated that they do not interpret it as such and that an NRD can become an RDO retrospectively if the pilot does not have to work the NRD.

Of course, the dispute about 120 days off a year has already been misinterpreted by the media who, unsurprisingly, have shown their usual inability to comprehend or report the true facts as they really are. Whilst it is appreciated that they have limited time and space to explain it in detail, they should make more effort to report it accurately. In a nutshell, it is about the number of RDOs (Rostered Days Off) in the pilots scheduling agreement which the company are have failed to roster and are continuing to fail to roster so that the pilots can plan their home lives a bit more accurately. It is about a failure of management to respect signed agreements.

Current industrial legislation only allows one issue at a time to be balloted. There are several other issues where the pilots and management have reached a "Failure to Agree" and more are pending. It is quite obvious to the Virgin Atlantic pilots that the current management regime is attempting to break the pilots union. Never before has there been such a dismal state of affairs between the pilots and the flight ops management at Virgin Atlantic which they claim is headed by a non flying "captain" who commands little respect from the majority of the pilots.

With the managements stated aim that it will not negotiate "terms and conditions", in clear breach of the recognition agreement, in the upcoming pay negotiations in a month or so, the current ballot is likely to be a rude awakening considering the resolve of the pilots to draw a line in the sand over weak management where the easy path to confrontation is the norm rather than the more difficult but rewarding path to co-operation.

As pointed out by one of the pilots who paraphrased Sir Richard Branson - "Losing My Virginity" (first edition) p 466: "I'm not opposed to unions in principle, but, surely, it's the ultimate expression of management incompetence when a company has to communicate with its workforce via a third party [a union]".

[call100]

SGC,

As pointed out by one of the pilots who paraphrased Sir Richard Branson - "Losing My Virginity" (first edition) p 466: "I'm not opposed to unions in principle, but, surely, it's the ultimate expression of management incompetence when a company has to communicate with its workforce via a third party [a union]".
No Union would deny that the company had the right to communicate whenever it needed/wanted to
Of course the ultimate expression of management incompetence is thinking that communication and negotiation are the same thing.
RB is no different to MOL in his attitudes only in his deliverance of those attitudes.
No doubt that what is happening at VA comes from the very top via Sycophants who know what they are doing but don't really care.
Again, good luck to the pilots....:ok:

[olster]

Also, the continual jet-lag is very tiring.My experiences with vs were predominantly great and professional pilots/crews doing their best .A JFK was virtually a short haul flight but even that comprised a night flight home and a couple of days to recover. It is hard to convince outsiders that the perceived glamour is actually continual fatigue,room service and attempting to recover between flights.It cannot be realistically compared to an office job -like most pilot jobs in fact -but the time zone changes take it all to a new level.Good luck to the chaps/esses.

[Sir George Cayley]

HO, Many thanks for your concise yet complete answer.

In a strange way I think the recent threat of IA from BAA union members, which included RFFS and Ops shows the way. BAA management had extracted more and more from less and less over a number of years and clearly thought they could go on ad in finitum. Although the vote was marginal, middle management lost courage and batted the problem up all the way to Spain.

The fact that the ACAS talks lasted but a day and quickly reached an amicable :sad: settlement should give VS some comfort.

I hope you and your colleagues take a stand as I'm sure, given the facts presented here, you will prevail.

Best wishes

Sir George Cayley

[Dekkard]

We are talking about a union that is a business, a business that relies on members for its survival and now is demonstrating more cynical practices than the companies that its members work for. Surely, the VA pilots who fly 750 hours per year ( the lowest in the industry). in the coolest airline on the planet. This has to be more about the desperate death throes of an union that is an irrelevance in the 21st century, but which cynically spins disputes to justify its existence.
From someone totally on the pilots side...

[call100]

Mmmm didn't think it would be long before someone came up with the rubbish that it's the 'Union'. For once can it not be understood, the members are the Union. If the Pilots -The Union - want to accept the appalling behaviour of VA then they will vote against IA. The 'Union' will abide by that vote....Some people are really ignorant when it comes to IA ballots.....
Or - judging by the language - is this the first of the management plants on the subject?!!;)

[fmgc]

BALPA has something like an 80% membership, way higher than any other Union in the Country. It is not an irrelevance at all.

In fact it is Company Council/Member led so to say that this is a "union that is an irrelevance in the 21st century, but which cynically spins disputes to justify its existence." is utter rubbish, it just doesn't work like that in BALPA.

In fact in another dispute a few years ago the Union was very wary of allowing a Company Council to run an IA Ballot, which ended up being one of the best results in the Union history.

Good luck to you VA guys, our Profession is constantly under threat and we need to take a stand less we should all end up paying for our own transport and HOTAC, not being provided with even water let alone crew food..........

[BA 77]

Is it just me or has this subject gone suspiciously quiet in the media? The BBC, Sky News, CNN etc are all not reporting it but the smaller media groups are. Maybe I just have a suspicious mind but perhaps Branson sent some brown envelopes to the news companies to keep this quiet after seeing what happened with BA and their strikes.

Like the majority of people on this thread I am 100% behind the pilots; it’s good to see some people in the profession who are fighting back against the slide in T&Cs which are so frequently ranted about here.

[kashrich]

From what I can gather, the Balpa monthly meeting is to take place tomorrow. So as an interested member of the public, how likely is it that a ballot will take place tomorrow? And if the ballot was to confirm IA how soon would this be likely to be to take place?

[MR7958]

From what I can gather, the Balpa monthly meeting is to take place tomorrow. So as an interested member of the public, how likely is it that a ballot will take place tomorrow? And if the ballot was to confirm IA how soon would this be likely to be to take place?


I'm due to fly VS to LAX on 18 September, so have been looking into this. My understanding is the union has to give a week's notice of the ballot and, if the ballot result is in favour of a strike, a further week's notice of the date of the strike itself. I gather no notice of ballot has been given yet, so if that notice were given tomorrow the ballot could begin on 31 August. If it lasted a week (and I honestly don't know how long most ballots stay open for - BAA was just under three weeks, but that was a much larger group to poll) then strikes could start by 14 September 2010.

Am selfishly hoping for a delay to the ballot or a voting period of a fortnight!

[kashrich]

thanks for the reply MR7958. Thats very useful information as Im due to fly VA to Orlando 4th September for a fortnight. Guess I might have to prepare for a delay home if the ballot is called and action voted for. Im pulled in two directions as I believe that if the facts are as reported above the pilots have every right to put a stop to their T +A's being eroded and would support their action. But I also would have two very disappointed little girls who wont get to see Micky for the first time after a long anticipation period so I also have a selfish interest! Hope things get corrected before it becomes necessary to take IA.

[Slimbitz]

This is a dispute about a Company not adhering to an industrial agreement. The members are the Union, the Union does the members' bidding, and the Union is conducting the procedure. In VS, the strength of feeling amongst the pilots has been grossly underestimated by the management. IMHO, this will lead to a ballot for IA, the timescale for which is unknown.

HO raised an issue of personal improprieties. I fail to see the relevance to the dispute; I don't wish to sound pious, but perhaps such titillating sideshows should be kept out of the debate?

[Chaffinch]

Surely, the VA pilots who fly 750 hours per year ( the lowest in the industry). in the coolest airline on the planet

Dekkard, your statement (above) clearly shows that you have absolutely no idea about life at Virgin. Your comments are, at best, unwelcome. :=

Apart from the odd inane comment (such as Dekkard's), it is heartening to see the overall support for our fight. I fear that this is only the thin end of a very big wedge ! If VAA management 'win' on this one it will be the start of an inexorable slide towards T&C's on a par with Ryanair !

In one of Heavy Operator's excellent postings he states.....

It is all very well the "ignoranti" harping on about how lucky those pilots are having so much time off. The pilots and anyone else who has at least a basic understanding of what permanent long-haul flying is about will know that not knowing what days you will be working more than six weeks ahead, can and does have serious consequences on your home life.

Well, sadly I've just experienced the "serious consequences on home life" with the collapse of my marriage to a wife who couldn't deal with having a husband who is away from home for half of the month (and regularly more than that !). So, for all of the "ignoranti" who have the luxury of snuggling up on the sofa with 'the missus' in the evenings and can plan to do things with their kids at the weekend, spare a thought for those of us who routinely don't get to enjoy such luxuries and who would have even less scope to plan such things if our current management have their way.

[biddedout]

Our BALPA reps also had to fight off an attempt to impose a totally inappropriate sickness policy on the pilots. It had been cobbled together as a generic policy to tackle percieved sickness issues amongst another group of staff in another part of the company (something to do with Wimbledon fortnight I believe). The reps asked for statistics from HR and when they eventually appeared, even alowing for two or three days off not flying due to colds (as per the ANO), pilot sickness levels were well below national all industry averages and well below the company average. The highest sickness levels were in the HR department. Probably wearing themselves out worrying about imposing pointless policies and trying to win futile battels with BALPA reps.

The reps also had to waste a lot of time attempting to explain to the HR people that pilot sickness averages looked higher than would be expected because as in all airlines a small number of pilots were on long term sick grounded by the CAA.:ugh: Some were perfectly well to work on the ground doing project work, but the company chose to keep them at home so that their sick pay ran out more quickly. Once long term grounding sickness figures were taken out of the equation, the pilot sickness levels were extremely low.

Generally, pilots just dont go sick unless they really have to. It probably has something to do with underlying professionalism and not wanting to drop collegues in it and I can''t imagine it is any different at VA.


Even if VA pilot sicness levels are higher, this is probably just down to the nature of a Longhaul only opearation and the last minute need to withdraw from trips at the onset of an illness.

[aussieizborn]

We must all realise that the industry is going through a difficult patch at the moment. However, management have to realise that the key to an efficient organisation, that is respected and revered for its service, is to have a happy workforce. I draw a parallel to the military where it is well known that happy troops are efficient troops and happy troops will put up with all sorts of hardships and go that extra mile. Sadly I am not certain that all the present day troops are happy troops, but that is a different story altogether. In the world of civilian aviation a contented crew will indeed go the extra mile to help out the company when required. They will deliver that extra customer care and attention if they feel that they are being supported correctly by the management. Indeed I have been a part of such an organisation in days gone by. A discontented crew, however, are not likely to do be so responsive if they are unhappy with the company, and the management, and the unjust decisions that affect their contract.

My experience of the airline industry is that many of the “management” personnel are lacking in the required attributes required for such positions and in several cases have reached their status by who they know rather than what they know. In addition many do not have the basic management skills to carry out their jobs effectively. Indeed some I have been associated with do not seem to possess any common sense, which is a basic requirement of management. I can quote an example of my past when a new director came into our company from a much larger organisation where he had been part of the management team. His experience in that larger company had indeed been as a manager, but as a manager of an office and a computer, not as a manager of personnel. After some months, and following a downward spiral of crew morale, I approached the individual to discuss the issue. The incumbent was surprised that moral was diminishing fast and said that as he was happy with his job, he had assumed that everyone else was also happy! This is not a word of a lie. I politely informed him that he needed to leave his office and manage his personnel more effectively.

I am not a member of Virgin, but really hope that the management team wake up to the fact that they could irreparably damage a great airline with what seems like very ill conceived management decisions. Good luck to all the pilots in this fight – there are definitely times in one’s life when principles have to be applied and it seems that this is such a case. I hope you manage to sort out this issue without recourse to further action but if that is the way it has to be then united you should stand.

[Heavy operator]

It would appear that the management at Virgin Atlantic have decided to try, one time too many, to undermine the pilots resolve. After final meetings with the pilots representatives over the last few days, the management team decided that they could not continue the meetings over the weekend or bank holiday Monday (the managements RDOs).

In an attempt (not unexpectedly) to undermine the pilots, the company wrote to all pilots with their interpretation of the situation, in clear breach of the recognition agreement. The earliest they can now meet with the pilots representatives is, according to them, September 6th. This is seen as yet one more attempt by the management to delay and prevaricate. Consequently, the pilots have agreed to ballot for industrial action.

Whilst BALPA have agreed to meet with management on September the 6th as well as at any time in the run up to, during and after any industrial action, the pilots are resolved to put a stop to the current flight operations management megalomaniacal and bullying stance and their disregard for the industrial agreements that are in place. The management earn no respect due to their lack of integrity and continual attempts to undermine the resolve and solidarity of the pilots.

[MR7958]

Following Heavy Operator's last post, does anyone have any more firm information about where VS and BALPA stand? In particular, do we know if the seven days' notice of a ballot has been given?

My reason for asking, as set out in an earlier post, is selfish but it does seem that the pilots are being treated shabbily by management.

[virgin mary]

Apparently a BALPA newsletter went out late on Friday afternoon informing the Pilots that the Company management had asked for the agreement to be re-written to allow them to do what they have been doing??? :rolleyes: BALPA requested a meeting over this weekend but the Company declined the offer. BALPA have now informed the Pilots and the Company that they are now pressing ahead towards the ballot.

I cant get hold of the newsletter, but it was apparently quite an interesting read.

As the whole issue is about days off, its ironic that the management refused to meet over a bank holiday weekend isn't it. :confused:

I hope this show of solidarity by the Pilots does not turn out like the Virgin Cabin Crew dispute some time ago. (But I suppose that was doomed from the start):bored:

[B747bill]

Not a chance of it going like the Cabin Crew strike. We are totally united, there is no doubt that the ballot will go massively in favour of industrial action. The talk online is of nothing else. This is about more than just Days Off. Everyone is committed to protecting our agreements using whatever methods we can, which means a strike!

[MR7958]

According to the Wall Street Journal BALPA has agreed to meet VS management on 6 September.

(UPDATE: Pilots Union Plans Sep 6 Meet With Virgin Atlantic - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100830-707824.html)

If this is right, I think it is commendable (and by way of disclosure, might also fit well with my September travel plans!). My view remains that the pilots have a good case and will, I hope, enjoy the public's support in their battles with VS management.

Does anyone else here agree that any perceived rush to industrial action cannot be a good strategy? Statements like B747Bill's:

Everyone is committed to protecting our agreements using whatever methods we can, which means a strike! seem to me destined to alienate support.

Industrial action should be a last resort, not the first thing to cross one's mind especially in a dispute which management could so easily spin as being about pilots trying to secure 120 days a year off work. :ugh:

I know the VS pilots have exercised massive restraint over this long-running dispute, but comments like B747bill's could be (mis)interpreted as endorsing a race to a strike. Lose the traveling public's sympathy and it follows that VS might lose more in the weeks, months and years to come - bookings, revenue and jobs.

VS is my favourite airline and I hope the pilots and BALPA tread carefully. There is a great deal at stake here for everyone involved.

[macdo]

Nice to see a pilot community with the balls for a fight with their management. Pity a few more CC's don't draw the line in the sand over the continual chipping away at t's&c's.
Virgin pilots have that rare thing in this industry A DECENT JOB! They should fight to retain it.

[Dan 98]

luchboxlegend

That is a b*gger and I am sure none of the pilots want to disrupt yours and your families travels plans and consider industrial action a last resort.

It would appear it is the "Management who will not adhere to the working agreement that is in place".

You mention they are in a good place and others have lost a lifestyle.....

If they do nothing they won't be in a good place and will also lose part of their lifestyle.

It is time pilots stood up for themselves and their lifestyles and start showing how far the airlines will get without them, not very far......!!

[MR7958]

It is time pilots stood up for themselves and their lifestyles and start showing how far the airlines will get without them, not very far......!!Isn't the grim reality that for as long as being an airline pilot remains a sought-after profession, there may always be those willing to work for sh:mad:t t&cs just to have a job, or rather just to be able to say they are a professional pilot. I don't agree with it, but imagine this is a reality that airline management feel they can exploit.

For industrial action like this to work (absent a successful legal case being brought by the current VS pilots) solidarity has to exist not just within an airline but across the profession. And not just across those professionals who have a job, but all those qualified and ready to work.

That, I fear, is a step too far for the aviation industry in 2010. We will in a world where, regrettably, the lowest common denominator tends to win.

[largegeorgejones]

I'm really sick of people saying "there is a q of pilots as long as your arm ready to work" and "pilots are completely replaceable"! That is just not true. It takes much time, effort and money to become a pilot. So there may (at the moment) be people with CPLs, ATPLs or even ATPLs with loads of hours hanging about waiting for a job but.... a notice period is in the region of 3 months, a type rating is 15 to 25 THOUSAND pounds plus, training takes 2 months plus and costs a company MONEY (uniform, hours, company spiel, admin etc). You are not just an office worker who can move stuff out of a desk and someone else can move in. A company that has a disruptive workforce will cost it dearly. Something most cannot afford at the moment. The rubbish that someone above stated about booking a holiday with Virgin cause the perceived service is better ect. but the important point expressed is that they wanted to "avoid the strikes" so booked with Virgin. This stuff does massive damage to brands. Do not undervalue the professionalism, the skill and its uniqueness of this career. That statement goes to company management but more importantly to pilots. I have no idea about the hardships of pilots at Virgin but please can everyone stop saying there is an immediate crowd of pilots ready to jump in at the drop of a hat. Cabin crew can be replaced with relative ease to keep a schedule going but pilots cannot.... FACT!

[largegeorgejones]

In fact lunchbox we agree "We, as pilots, are an expensive commodity-we are replaceable (given time and money)". Thats all I'm saying. What company wants to go through this expensive time consuming rigmarole?!

To be fair both BA and Virgin are hit and miss on service. Sometimes they are great and sometimes rubbish but the seat/product is the same. One is shiny and red and the other is blue and well.... british! Ultimately the same thou especially in cattle! Depends on who is working on the day.

I agree that a strike is damaging (and ultimately to the company that supports you) so you only do it if your requests are realistic and acceptable given industry standards. Now I'm out of my depth!!!

[thetruck]

The request is simple, realistic and easy. Stick to the agreements,treat them with respect. Grow up and stop trying to break them. Keep your word. It won't even cost you a penny. Just admit you broke the agreement, state you won't do it again.

As for drastic pay-cuts, VAA pilots have had to suck up approx a 15.5 % cut in real terms. The Company are after more and more. Pilots are being disciplined on a weekly basis. The aim is to divide and conquer and boot the union out, HR have sold the plan to the bosses that they can do it.

VAA used to be one of the target jobs in the industry, I've flown with Captains who are openly planning on quitting the profession just to get away from the septic environment pushed by the VAA Managers.

BA on the other hand took about a 2.5% cut with the promise of share options.
Trust me, this is going all the way. Both sides are bedding down for a long fight.

[wheelie my boeing]

thetruck,

BA took a 2.5% paycut? By this I presume you mean BA's pilots. Being one of them, my net pay has reduced by just over 15% since my "2.5%" paycut. 2.5% was the basic salary cut, the rest was from our hourly pay (which as a percentage at the bottom of the rung is a hell of a lot!) PLUS we will work harder. Of course BA has also cut the SSP pay in order to cover training costs (a type rating) for which they charge £44,000 (salaries are reduced for the first 5 years). Whilst this was the case beforehand, the pilots previously didn't pay for their ATPLs so that is also a gigantic paycut. Not forgetting that it has been some time since BA pilots took a payrise in line with inflation (which is not a payrise, its a pay freeze).
Not complaining, just stating the facts...

[Duff beer]

I'm afraid the management is now rotten to the core, starting at the top with the CEO who has admitted operating criminally. (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article7112336.ece)

How on earth a proven/admitted criminal can still run the airline is beyond me.

Pathetic, cowardly management!

The fact that these people want to dishonour a legal contract comes as no surprise.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Heads up guys. If you name names your post WILL be deleted - that has just happened.

If you allude to people whether in name or not it will be deleted. If you use sideways snide swipes at people by using initials it will be deleted. Answer?

Don't do it. Read the rules you signed up to. Repeats of the above will get you a ban.

[The Big Easy]

Its all gone quiet. Is there to be a ballot for industrial action at Virgin or not?

[xray one]

Please can we allow BALPA or the VACC to publish any info on this matter as they've requested, rather than giving a running commentary on our dirty washing in public. The Daily Mail is undoubtably reading these posts with interest.

What will happen will happen

[Freddie-M]

From the BALPA website:
VIRGIN PILOTS' DISPUTE ENDED
BALPA is pleased to reassure families and the travelling public that it has resolved its dispute with Virgin Atlantic.

BALPA General Secretary Jim McAuslan said: 'Both sides have conducted talks that were frank, to the point and creative. Whilst the issue has created much debate, we are now happy with both the agreement and the ground that has been laid for our future relationship with the company.

'Pilots will have the minimum 120 rostered days off a year - the equivalent of an office worker's weekends and bank holidays - which was in our original agreement but we will not be seeking compensation.

'This was never a matter of money; it was always one of lifestyle.

'In our discussions with the company we have identified a range of relationships and processes that can be improved. We are looking forward to working with Virgin Atlantic on these matters to ensure that our industrial relations is on a more professional and progressive footing.'

[MR7958]

Good news all round.

Slap me down if this is too off-topic, but does anyone have a feel for why the BALPA/VS dispute was resolved but BASSA/BA has, to date, not been.

Where do people think the credit and blame lie? The unions? The employers? The employees?

Interesting to wonder whether BASSA/BA is the perfect storm...

[Prophead]

This will rear its head again. As will the same kinds of arguments about T&C's in many other airlines. The gradual erroding of T&C's will continue due to the fact that pilots only complain when it directly affects them or only within their particular airline.

It starts at the bottom with the whole P2F thing which has made a joke of the FO's position. Whilst captains and senior FO's with their 000'sof hours just turned a blind eye to it because it didnt affect them. Well it is slowly moving up the chain. What next? 0 - captain for £500,000?

The fact that the general public have such a high opinion of pilots is the reason it is not a minimum wage job yet. That will soon change if its allowed to carry on.

Pilots from all airlines and all levels should be united against this cancer that is slowly deteriorating and making a mockery of the whole proffession. Its time BALPA stepped in.

[brit bus driver]

but does anyone have a feel for why the BALPA/VS dispute was resolved but BASSA/BA has, to date, not been

Grown-ups not chimps?

[The Big Easy]

'Its time BALPA stepped in'.

I think BALPA did step in and did a superior job. Without them and a united workforce things may have been somewhat different for the boys and girls at VS! Well done to all involved.

TBE.