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jetset lady
18th Aug 2010, 23:05
I was brought up to believe that you respected people. It didn't matter whether it was a family member, a person holding a post of authority or even a homeless person, you showed respect for their feelings and their property. Yes, they could then go on to lose that respect but in the first instance it was always there. As a result, I am a stickler for good manners and always think carefully about who I may be inconveniencing by my actions. Occasionally of course, it will be unavoidable. However I will always do my best to limit the inconvenience.

But all that seems to have changed. Now it seems respect has to be earned. I hear it at work.."The Captain has to earn my respect"....on here in various threads..."The police have to earn my respect"...and in the news..."The head teacher has to earn my son's respect"..(For those that are unfamiliar with the story, a child was suspended for refusing to follow the school rules and stand when the headmaster came into the room. Daddy dearest of course backed up the child saying that it was up to the Headmaster to earn his respect. Personally, I'd have thought he'd done that just by being the Headmaster.)

To me, this seems to be fundamentally wrong and I can't help wondering how much the general lack of consideration and courtesy contributes to the modern day issues we all face. The families that make life a misery for those living around them by not giving a damn how their behaviour affects others. The general rudeness that seems to be prevalent in all walks of life. And of course, not forgetting the old favourite, "It's my right!" All boil down to a complete lack of respect for anyone else.

Or is it just me? Am I hanging onto old fashioned ideals that are no longer practical in today's world?

Whirlygig
18th Aug 2010, 23:15
You're not the only one JSL so stick to your "old-fashioned" values and hopefully others will learn from them.

Respect should be a given until a person's behaviour is such that that respect is lost. Then it needs to be earned back. But it is possible, nay desirable, to respect someone you don't particularly like; something that a few on these boards could with heeding. :hmm:

However, I don't believe that rank, role, title deserves any more respect than any one else just because of said rank, role, title.

Cheers

Whirls

SyllogismCheck
18th Aug 2010, 23:21
I largely suspect the compound effects of successive generations adopting ever more lazy parenting habits.

If no foundation of respect is built within the home, it won't suddenly materialise in the school or workplace.

Two's in
18th Aug 2010, 23:40
The idea that certain professions or appointments attract a level of general respect was debunked by those "professions" themselves. When the police became the uniformed arm of traffic revenue generation and instead started arresting the adults who clipped mouthy teenagers, they lost that respect. When teachers use the power of socialist dogma to deliver mediocre teaching services in the name of union power, they lost that respect.

The lack of mutual respect is what makes this world such a brutish and rude place, but don't just blame the neanderthals, the "professionals' started the rot.

Cron
18th Aug 2010, 23:45
'Or is it just me? Am I hanging onto old fashioned ideals that are no longer practical in today's world?'

Ideals are never practical, but they can be workable, they have to be modified to current context.

jetset lady
18th Aug 2010, 23:48
Good to know there are others that think in the same way, Whirlygig! I do agree with your views on rank/role/title but I also think that certain roles command a different type of respect, if not for the person themselves, then for the knowledge and skills they possess.

SyllogismCheck

I don't think it's just lazy parenting in some cases. It seems that some people are so desperate to become friends with their offspring, they forget to be parents. They are so busy telling their children how wonderful they are and doing anything to avoid upsetting their little darlings that they forget the basics.

Vld1977
18th Aug 2010, 23:49
A teacher or headmaster shouldn't have to earn respect, as they are in a position of natural trust, and, having no official authority, their authority comes from the respect people agree to show to them.

Then again, that respect, whilst it shouldnīt have to be earned, has to be used wisely to the purpose of their role. Respecting a headteacher by not talking why they are speaking in the classroom, or by following their advice on academic matters is right, but making the students stand up when they come into the classroom is a misuse of the authority that comes with that respect, as it is only, in my eyes, an authoritarian move to show them who's boss. If this headteacher needs to gain respect by stupid authoritarian orders like standing up, to me it means that they have to impose that respect, as they don't get it for their professional role, and as such, I would defend my child if he doesn't stand up when they come in, actually, I would encourage him not to stand up.

You are mixing respect with blind submission, and blind submission only creates robots, not free human beings.

Vld1977
18th Aug 2010, 23:55
Two's In:

socialist dogma?

Socialism is an ideology and a political method. It is not a dogma. And besides, I don't even see itīs relevance on teaching. I believe itīs only the habit of calling "socialist" whatever action or policy that certain people don't like because it threatens their peaceful walking through life without having to care for the welfare of others.

Respect doesn't have to be earned by someone, but it can be lost if they don't use it properly.

Whirlygig
18th Aug 2010, 23:59
certain roles command a different type of respect, if not for the person themselves, then for the knowledge and skills they possess. Unfortunately, just because someone hold a certain rank or title, does not necessarily means that they have the requisite knowledge or skills.

An airline captain, on the face of it, deserves no more respect than my gardener just because he's passed a few exams and got an ATPL. My gardener, on the hand, has a PhD in Archaeology.

Assumptions cannot be made: therefore, treat everyone with the same respect with which you wish to be treated and you can't go wrong.

As for standing up when the Headmaster enters the assembly hall ... doesn't everybody stand up when another person enters the room? That is manners, not blind submission.

Cheers

Whirls

poina
19th Aug 2010, 00:05
I grew up with a similar background. The first lessons I can remember from my parents was respect your elders, sisters, parents, teachers, police, neighbors, peers, etc.
Time passed and I came to realize something that goes very well with respect, that being humility.
Arrogance deserves no respect, in life or on these forums.

Richo77
19th Aug 2010, 00:40
Agree with you completely JSL. It is very easy to be politeful and respectful and i have always found people remember you very well because of it.

Richo Jnr is 6 and in his second year of school, he was taught from a very early age his "please's and thankyou's" and it is always mentioned in his report cards. That fills me with utmost pride.

His friends parents also mention it when he has a playdate or a sleepover.

I was asked one day by a shop assistant in a busy mall if i used to work in a similar place. I had'nt but asked why and she simply said people are generally rude. I surprised her because i greeted her with a smile, said hello and asked politely for what i wanted. Found a few extra profiteroles in the box that day.

Gentleman Jim
19th Aug 2010, 01:18
Vid1977

I would defend my child if he doesn't stand up when they come in, actually, I would encourage him not to stand up.
And therein lies the problem:rolleyes: What awful parenting.

'Attitudes are contagious.....Is yours worth catching!

Whirls has it bang on the money, and I am quite sure that Debretts new guide to etiquette and modern manners has it that you stand up when someone enters a room.

sisemen
19th Aug 2010, 01:26
The fact that an individual has arrived in a role or achieved a position is indicative of some sort of road that has been followed - more times than not by dint of some hard yards previously. Ergo, that deserves respect and it is not incumbent on the individual to prove that to every other individual that they come across.

However, as other posters have said, once that respect is lost then it has to be regained.

Therefore the policeman ought to be respected - until he is caught out taking a back-hander.

The army officer ought to be respected - until they are caught out having an extra-marital relationship with a lower rank.

The elderly person ought to be respected - until you spot them spitting in the street.

The athlete ought to be respected - until they are caught with banned substances in their system.

And the flying instructor ought to be respected - until the moment they say "I know it's against the rules but watch this".

Buster Hyman
19th Aug 2010, 01:38
I think everyone deserves a modicum of respect and this is also known as Human Rights I guess. If a beggar asks me for money, I will generally just say no. I don't show him/her any disrespect by ignoring them or abusing them. I don't agree with what they are doing (here & now), but if they show me respect by "respecting" my answer, then why demean them?

I think you show respect to a role, but I still think an individual should earn respect. By that, if, say, a person in an authorative position above me tasks me with something, then I respect his/her authority to give me the task & I do it. Of course, I can question it but...I do it, respectfully. Dubious appointments, poor decision making, and general behaviour is what determines whether I respect the individual.

I always think of Reg Ansett when this comes up. A total bastard when it came to business & he got his pound of flesh from his workers, but they all respected him & would walk a mile over hot coals for him. Things like making people take unpaid leave when times were tough, rather than sacking staff. Remembering people's names & their kids names when they only ever briefly met him. Wondering how much he was paying a bloke when he saw him turn up to work in a new car, these are just little anecdotes that I recall of the man. He carried people along with his enthusiasm & passion for the success of his business.

Halfbaked_Boy
19th Aug 2010, 01:45
jetset lady,

I am 21 years of age, and I agree wholeheartedly.

I think what has altered is the way we show respect to people, and an element of laziness has crept in - for example, it was (as mentioned already) the done thing to stand up when somebody else entered the room, whereas now, it's acceptable to smile and acknowledge them with a greeting.

I know this wasn't the particular point you were trying to make, but I also like to think that there are certain roles, occupations, ranks, call it what you will, that deserve a certain amount of instilled respect.

I guess it's like looking at the proverbial half full/empty cup - respect is either already there based on certain factors, but may diminish through observation of that person's actions, or it is only there for practical purposes and in a small dosage to begin with, but may grow through observation of same.

Personally, I like to start off by giving strangers a large benefit of the doubt, and trust them until given reason not to.

:)

Airborne Aircrew
19th Aug 2010, 01:51
I think it's really rather simple... You grant everyone a modicum of respect until they prove they don't deserve it. Generally, those who don't prove it in the first few seconds/minutes...:ok:

SoulManBand
19th Aug 2010, 01:51
As for standing up when the Headmaster enters the assembly hall ... doesn't everybody stand up when another person enters the room? That is manners, not blind submission.

Cheers

Whirls

Sadly, people don't. They don't even stand up to shake hands. Just watch a talk show, like Larry King, and you would see two people shake hands, while sitting down, across the table.

Boors!

galaxy flyer
19th Aug 2010, 02:38
It harms no one to be thought an enemy entitled to respect until found to be a friend worthy of affection.

Ambrose Bierce

GF

SASless
19th Aug 2010, 03:36
Seems to me some folks confuse courtesy for respect.....they are two entirely different concepts.

In the South, growing up we learned to be courteous....it was taught to us from a very early age.

Over time....I learned to respect people for reasons their conduct in life caused me to appreciate and hold in high regard.

I might be courteous to you.....but in no way have any respect for you.

If I respect you....I would never be discourteous to you.

Only in the military or some professions does "rank" alone command "respect" but then that rank has to be earned in and of itself.

larssnowpharter
19th Aug 2010, 04:20
Without feelings of respect, what is there to distinguish men from beasts?

Confucious

Wildpilot
19th Aug 2010, 05:01
It is an interesting topic, I find hard to understand how or rather why some people seem to push if you like older values away. I am thirty three years of age and was brought up to be polite respectful and generally not obnoxious to the other people around me.

As for the standing up for the Headmaster, it is not wrong he/she is and adult with a wealth of experience over any child, and standing is just a demonstration of the respect that should be in place. Is a child really equipped to decide if the Headmaster has earned their respect, no but later on in life they can make there own decisions about whom they do and do not respect.

It may be old fashioned to open doors for Ladies, stand when someone enters the room etc but I think it is a nicer way live than the if you like modern way of just thinking about yourself.

I have always and will continue to live my life with respect for others, and it has never had a negative effect on relationships, jobs or day to day contact with others infact quite the opposite.

Respect and politeness go hand in hand in my world and it is unfortunately a dying set of values.

unstable load
19th Aug 2010, 06:20
Common respect in the form of greeting, style of address and the day to day minutiae should be accorded to all.

Professional respect, however, is a different matter all together. I have colleagues that are half my age that I respect because of their professional conduct, knowledge and the way they approach their jobs, while there are folks retired that I scorn for their lack of it.

As for authority figures, the headmaster/policeman/doctor etc will get the common courtesy and respect from the beginning of my post as due and then dependent on their conduct during our interaction, they will either lose or gain more as professionals in their field.
The fact that they hold a doctorate, a degree or a badge is their choice and subject to their ego and desires, so I will treat them as I would like them to treat me, until they prove worthy of more or none as the case may be.

SyllogismCheck
19th Aug 2010, 06:42
They are so busy telling their children how wonderful they are and doing anything to avoid upsetting their little darlings that they forget the basics. Which I perceive to be because if upset, the sprogs are likely create a scene and give the parents a hard time, which is more trouble than the parents are willing to deal with...


...because their attitude to parenting is lazy. ;)

I think one is a product of the other.

GANNET FAN
19th Aug 2010, 07:53
SyllogismCheck, absolutely right. Parenting attitudes usually stem from "peace at any price". Respect and manners are very closely allied.

JSL I think you are just great!!

mixture
19th Aug 2010, 07:59
JSL,

I show respect by default to most people, apart from estate agents and bankers, for obvious reasons they have to earn my respect. :cool:

Bruce Wayne
19th Aug 2010, 08:22
I show respect by default to most people, apart from estate agents and bankers, for obvious reasons they have to earn my respect. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gif


likewise, save for:

traffic wardens (particularly in richmond where uniforms channel north korean border guards),
wheel clampers,
kim jong il
ruling military junta in Burma (Myanmar),

oh and the labour pouty (party).

SA Brit
19th Aug 2010, 08:30
"So I will treat them as I would like them to treat me, until they prove worthy of more or none as the case may be." unstable load

I was brought with this ideology,and i believe it has held me in good stead.

I was always taught that if i wanted to be respected by peers and elders, i would have to earn it. No one is born with 'respect', they gain it (or not so) as they go through life, as a result of they behaviour and actions.

I am still young (24) so feel that i have much 'respect' yet to earn.

SpringHeeledJack
19th Aug 2010, 08:48
I would echo the many who have said that a certain respect be afforded to everyone until that person proves that it isn't warranted, otherwise what are we as supposedly evolved beings ?

Many parents are lazy when it comes to child rearing, it is in the consistency of good example that they fall down. I see it daily where i live, the attitude of entitlement and self-interest butting against polite society, the young copying the old :(

I have, too many times to count, been served by younger staff in shops in the last years and been met with no eye contact, no smile (even corporate), no please or thank you and in a couple of cases the person was texting and looking at the mobile phone in their hand at the till, ffs! Having worked in retail for a while, i am well aware of how rude some customers can be to staff, but it should never be the other way around, especially if the customer is polite (and spending money). I'm sure that a lot of bad-manners by the yoof of today is down to the aforementioned sense of entitlement, no doubt fostered by the myriad media programmes promoting that everyone can be rich and famous and influential by just existing, so why should they (yoof) trouble themselves with respectful interaction ???

I surmise (but can't prove) that the proliferation of internet based platforms that allow disjointed interaction, but instant gratification, only feeds the lack of 'real world' manners. I was recently in an environment where people (strangers) from over 30 different nations were in a restricted environment with minimal electronic devices and guess what ? They all seemed to co-exist with minimal annoyance mainly due to respect and consideration.



SHJ

Gentleman Jim
19th Aug 2010, 09:49
I think by re-introducing the Japanese feudal system it would sort a lot of these problems out. It would only take a couple of heads to be lopped off students who did not stand up when the headmaster walked in to solve the problem for the next 100 years.

On a serious note. If you actively encourage a child not to respect (vid1977), then where is the child's benchmark in later life? The answer is they do not have one. At what point does the Headmaster earn the respect of the disrespectful student, considering they are likely to have very little contact. Does he remain seated throughout his school life?

It is a generation and educational issue. When I was in the military i had a Junior Officer come in to the crew room and say 'I just walked past a junior rank who's hair was so long it was unbelievable'. When I asked if he stopped the young man and told him to go and get a hair cut and report back, he said 'no'!

I had a 26 year old engineering manager in a very large aviation company complaining to me that he 'was not getting the respect he deserved', I said 'it sounds like you are'!

Back to school kids, good manners cost absolutely nothing and mean absolutely everything. But parents have to teach their kids as well and not abdicate responsibility for all of life's essential lessons to a teacher paid close to the minimum wage, who tends to work in that employ for the love of it. Quite why I find difficult to fathom out.

MagnusP
19th Aug 2010, 10:13
I believe that everyone deserves courtesy, i.e. how you behave towards them, and I've had to deal with individuals found guilty of some extremely unpleasant crimes. Courtesy costs little, except perhaps some time holding a door open for other shoppers who offer no courtesy in return.

Respect is different. Respect is how I feel about someone. That takes experience, and there's also the difference between respecting, for example, someone's station while having little or no respect for the person. You can respect, for example, a captain or a judge or a doctor for the post they hold and have achieved, while holding that same person in utter contempt as an individual. Trust me on this.

Storminnorm
19th Aug 2010, 10:24
Respect and Courtesy cost nothing.
But they CAN provide immense rewards.
At least, that's what my old Gran told me.
Examples like holding the door open for someone
that doesn't even recognise the action takes nothing
away from the person holding the door open, but speaks
volumes about those that don't recognise the action.
It's only a pity that so many people nowadays are so
tied up in thier own problems that they can't see that.

Training Risky
19th Aug 2010, 10:35
army officer ought to be respected - until they are caught out having an extra-marital relationship with a lower rank.

A bit old-school eh sisemen?! The 'erks' are not like they used to be in the olden days! Would it be OK if said officer was having an extra-marital affair with a fellow officer?:E

Interesting discussion though. As a Dawkins atheist I find it impossible to automatically afford respect to just everyone, until they have earned it. As already said, respect and courtesy are two different things. Obey the law and social norms are factors too.

To explain: If you base your approach to life on logic, evidence and the scientific approach, you can be courteous to people, obey the law, yet not immediately assume that everyone you meet is worthy of respect.

Do I respect certain Prime Ministers of the late 90s and 00s? Of course not! But the law and social norms prohibit me from spitting in their general direction and shouting "greedy psuedo-socialist hypocrite" into their faces (were I to meet them of course).

Do I respect the Padre who wants to talk to me about his beliefs? I can be courteous and respect his intellect, but anyone who believes in a supernatural creator (even just a little bit) despite the lack of any evidence to support such belief, logically deserves no respect for their beliefs. But I'm not about to go out and abuse the caliph of the East London Mosque, as that would be rude, and more importantly (following the law of the jungle) would probably lead to an early death for me!

Do I respect teachers, policemen and army officers/soldiers? Well...I have taught my young children to be polite and demonstrate manners, but automatic respect based on a position achieved by hard work, even if you may dislike the individual...? It's a tricky one. I think the answer is to assume respect for the position of teacher/policeman/serviceman, then in time respect for the person in that position will develop...and if they are a nob, then it won't.

Do I 'respect' my parents/wife? I do..because those relationships are unique in my life, compared to the 7 billion other bags of human DNA walking the planet.

Just the ramblings of a madman....!:)

Well done MagnusP - while I was composing my magnum opus you summed up my philosophy in a few lines!

MagnusP
19th Aug 2010, 10:54
TR: and now I respect you for that acknowledgement! :ok:

Flyt3est
19th Aug 2010, 11:50
@ Whirlygig

My gardener, on the hand, has a PhD in Archaeology.


Has it occured to you my darling that the reason he's your gardener is because he knows whats lying underneath it?? Just a thought ;)

Lonewolf_50
19th Aug 2010, 11:57
It does no harm to offer any stranger or other person courtesy as a default, which I do my best to apply as a rule.

My respect must be earned however, in terms of how I perceive someone's state of being or quality.

This point of view I have developed over the years after having learned the hard way how often people let me down, lied to me, been completely full of crap, stabbed me in the back, made a habit of breaking promises, etcetera.

If one wishes to be respected, or treated with respect, one ought to act in a respectable manner. ;)

Also: MagnusP said it all very well. :)

SASless
19th Aug 2010, 12:14
I had a 26 year old engineering manager in a very large aviation company complaining to me that he 'was not getting the respect he deserved', I said 'it sounds like you are'!


Jim.....were you perhaps a US Army Warrant Officer at one time in your career?:ok::ok:

Once upon a time in a land far away......I was asked by a Lieutenant if I did not salute superior officers.

My response was straight forward....."Yes Sir....when I recognize them as being superior!"

Much harumphing heard!

timmcat
19th Aug 2010, 12:17
The concept of 'commanding' respect has always fascinated me. I've seen otherwise good managers within industry fail with regard to people mangement because this aspect just 'doesnt happen' - and staff then subsequently walking over their line manager. So - is this lack of respect from the staff, or the inability of the manager to convey his leadership role in a natural manner - or both? I do think that it's something that does, or does not come naturally.

lasernigel
19th Aug 2010, 12:22
In the South, growing up we learned to be courteous....it was taught to us from a very early age.

I can assure you that being brought up in the industrial North was no different, and in fact was probably more drummed into you because of class differences.

Respect comes in many forms, whether it is getting up to give your seat on a bus to a person older or more frail/pregnant, to saying Good morning when passing someone, or in my case respecting Dr's and addressing them by their correct title.
Case in point when I did my stint on industrial lasers, the guy who interviewed me had a BSc in Electronics and an MSc in Applied physics and laser technology. He was 30 and it was his first job. During training in the US he kept going on about his education and how much better he was than me. When it came to actually working on the laser it showed theory isn't everything and despite telling him to listen he fell rather sharply to Earth.
Being ex Army I gave respect to seniors and officers, however as I made my way up the ranks, I found out that guys straight out of Sandhurst were told by their peers to respect SNCO's for their experience.

Many people have made the point that todays generation are sadly lacking in respect to their elders and people in general. Bad parenting? Yes in the main.
As from yesterday working for a Japanese company where respect is paramount. Agree with it totally until you find out whether or not the person deserves it.

Ancient Observer
19th Aug 2010, 12:30
JSL - great thread.
Magnus. - spot on. I agree. That sums it up.

The group that I now give both more courtesy to, and a bit more respect than I used to, are folk working in shops.
My daughter has now done a number of shop jobs during vacation time, and I have to say that caught between the "great" British public, stupid managers and avaricious owners, I now understand the world of the shop assistant a little better.
She's now working in a very well-known Japanese firm................and if there is a "different" culture there, she has not come across it yet.

PS I always listen to the safety briefing.

rgbrock1
19th Aug 2010, 12:41
It is my view that a certain baseline amount of respect should be shown to others.
Initially. Then, dependent on many personal variables, that respect can either deepen
or, in worse cases, become total disrespect.

SASless brought up the military, which is a very good point. Those holding a higher rank require respect. But that too must be earned. In my military career, for example, I met up with some fine NCO's (Non-Commissioned Officers) and Officers who not only earned our respect but that deepened as well. On the other hand, I've met
some NCO's and Officers who earned nothing but scorn and loathing.

I think the military parallelism holds true in civilian life as well. I've had managers/supervisors who earned my whole-hearted respect. And I've had others who were despised.

The same holds true for outside the work place as well.

In answer to the original question: yes, respect has to be earned.

Whirlygig
19th Aug 2010, 12:52
As a Dawkins atheist I find it impossible to automatically afford respect to just everyone,And as a Dawkins' atheist, I find it completely possible to automatically afford respect to just everyone .... :}

because he knows whats lying underneath it?? Just a thought Good thought FlyT - as the landowner of the potential "Norfolkshire" hoard, I should be quids in!. :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

wings folded
19th Aug 2010, 12:57
Now it seems respect has to be earned.

I agree, jsl, that is how it has become. A great pity.

But, and it just a thought, respect from others is something one can sacrifice in an instant of boorish or rude or aggressive or arrogant or ill-measured behaviour.

And a bit like "reputation", it can take a while to re-build after the damage. It is the old "you can't easily put the toothpaste back in the tube" analogy.

mister hilter
19th Aug 2010, 20:28
This courtesy/respect idea is no new phenomenon.

'Manners maketh man' - William of Wykeham (1324 - 1404).

I also recall (laziness prevents me checking) reading that a person will form an opinion of another, upon first meeting, within 7 seconds. So as was drummed into me 'First Impressions Last'.

Unfortunately in today's world those first 7 seconds make me:

(a). glad that I have not met a lot of these people previously

(b) happy in the knowledge that I will never encounter them again.

That aside, there are many, regardless of rank, title, position, with whom it has been my pleasure and privelege to have rubbed shoulders.

Stockpicker
19th Aug 2010, 20:43
SASless had it right - there is a difference between courtesy and respect. There is no excuse for a lack of courtesy; and as such, it should be impossible to discern a lack of respect. Endeavour to earn respect, by all means; but expect (and give) courtesy in any case.

Vld1977
20th Aug 2010, 00:36
Yes, I agree that on this thread we are mixing two concepts: Courtesy (or at least basic human communication skills) and respect. Some aspects of respect are subjective and come from the perception of the individual, ie their actions, words, etc. Some of the old-fashion respect for teachers, priests, officers, etc is just plain submission, not respect.

Respect has to work both ways. Once I was in a very touristic cathedral, and a group of noisy tourists were taking pictures and disturbing the people that were praying there. I told them off and reminded them that it was a place of worship and not a pub, and to show a bit of respect for the locals who were there praying. One of the priests (or whatever they were in that cathedral) heard me and thanked me, and as me if I was looking for a quiet place to pray. I said no thanks, I am an atheist. No problem, he said, hope you enjoy your visit. I said, well, I have to go now, my wife is outside. He said why didn't she come in? I answered that she was rudely prevented from doing so by a very authoritarian guy who told her she was being disrespectful by showing her shoulders (in Spain in July!). The priest came with me and asked the other guy to go tell my wife if she wouldnīt mind covering her shoulders with a sweater or something. We didn't have a sweater, but she covered herself with a long skirt she had just bought, and was warmly welcomed in by the priest and said sorry.

These were two men with the same ideas, same beliefs, same morals, same authority and same enthusiasm to defend their conception of a society, totally and diametrically opposite to my beliefs and ideas. But one of them gained my total respect, and the other one my total disrespect. It was all down to their actions and to their attitude towards others. I cannot respect a racist, I am sorry, even if they are the most polite person in town, but their attitude is to denigrate, insult and marginalise other people for the race they belong. As I said, blind respect doesn't and shouldn't exist.

On the other hand. The lack of respect of the young people for everything is our own making. We are passively living and actively educating our children in individualism, in making our own way in life without even looking at others, in disregarding solidarity as something not profitable. And, overall, we are educating our children in believing in only one goal in our lives and one meaning for our existance: Money. The more and the sooner, the better, by any means. Itīs no wonder that our kids look to rich stupid celebrities as role models, and their aim in life is to be an actor/football player/Big Brother participant. And is no wonder that when confronted by the MPs expenses scandal, ridiculous bonus for bankers or people who cheat on benefits, these kids, prevented by individualism of grasping the idea of "society", think of these things: "cool, they are clever! wish I could do the same". Individualism and not believing in the idea of society is what make youths ignore the authority of parents, police, teacher, etc, or drop litter, assaulting someone just for the kicks of abusing someone weaker than them, etc. We have educated them in the rule of the strongest, and sod the rest.

Gentleman Jim

On a serious note. If you actively encourage a child not to respect (vid1977), then where is the child's benchmark in later life? The answer is they do not have one. At what point does the Headmaster earn the respect of the disrespectful student, considering they are likely to have very little contact. Does he remain seated throughout his school life?

I am not encouraging a child not to respect. I am encouraging him to question authority, and demand that authority comes with a reasonable reason and justification. If the headteacher demands that everybody stays silent in class, that everybody does their homework, that everybody behaves in the playground, that is the authority that I expect my child to respect, not rituals of blind submission.

Anyway, I come from Spain, when this standing up wouldn't have been accepted easily. My parents, and all people who went to school in Franco's regime, were made to stand up and do the fascist salute every morning when the teacher came in, so the new generations have been educated in rejecting similar shows of submission and unjustified discipline.

Gentleman Jim
20th Aug 2010, 02:04
vid1977

Your post has me very confused.

Respect has to work both ways.

Yes it does. And do you think your child, the one you encourage not to stand up is going to get any respect from the Headteacher. Wooooo, vicious circle, guess who will lose, and guess whose fault it will be? Yours!

Individualism and not believing in the idea of society is what make youths ignore the authority of parents, police, teacher, etc, or drop litter, assaulting someone just for the kicks of abusing someone weaker than them, etc. We have educated them in the rule of the strongest, and sod the rest.No, YOU would educate your child like that. You said quite clearly concerning how you would have your child conduct themselves in class with the Headmaster. What the Child conveys in that moment of complete disrespect or if you will discourtesy (for it is not submission of any sort) is 'F**k you Headteacher'.

On the other hand. The lack of respect of the young people for everything is our own makingNo it is the making of people like you, not me! My kids don't do that. They were taught values, whether they liked it or not, and that gave them a social structure for themselves to build upon. If you teach a child to overtly question authority then all you are going to do is make that child look a complete fool and in the long run Daddy you are going to be sorry! My children don't need to question authority, they were encouraged to display it when it is appropriate, my two eldest, well you could not meet a nicer, more well mannered pair, the type that when 13 had we met you at an airport they by their own choice would say to you 'Sir please allow me to carry your case for you' and when you said 'no it's ok' they would say 'Please I insist', doing it because they believe that is a courteous respectful way of behaving. Now who actually has authority? Is the child being submissive? Not a chance! They made those choices because they were given a framework during the early informative years when they must be taught that authority exists for a reason and when authority is misplaced, the display of polite, courteous assertiveness will generally win.

Submission is about lack of self esteem, it's not 'standing up for the Headmaster for goodness sake', it is about not feeling good about yourself, and lack of self esteem and self belief is fostered by unwitting parents.

If you don't want your kids to desire to be 'big brother contestants' then don't let them watch the cr*p. The problem is that with your model of perceived admirable behaviours, it is ok for your kids to turn around and say 'Dad I will watch what I want on TV OK!' and you will reply 'oh, bloody kids' and leave them to get on with it. The dichotomy is that by teaching children to question authority so early on, then guess what the result is...they question your authority as well.

You can teach children to have self respect, self esteem, confidence. You can develop leadership and communication skills. The result, is a well mannered, progressive individual that does not need to question authority because they themselves naturally command it.

As for your stories concerning the Church, well there are some observations. Firstly there is a far more respectful way of getting the tourists to realise their wrong doings without resorting to

I told them off and reminded them that it was a place of worship and not a pub, and to show a bit of respect for the locals who were there prayingWhich is nothing but a display of boorish behaviour.

You say you are from Spain. If so you would have been sensitive to the needs of the Church for ladies to cover their bare shoulders (even in August). Even if you were not, why leave your wife outside? Anybody else would automatically think, 'ok no problems, now what have we got to cover your shoulders honey'?, most 'tourist' churches have a collection of scarves anyhow for such eventualities.


These were two men with the same ideas, same beliefs, same morals, same authority and same enthusiasm to defend their conception of a society, totally and diametrically opposite to my beliefs and ideas. But one of them gained my total respect, and the other one my total disrespect. It was all down to their actions and to their attitude towards others.And in that little tale, were the two men our respective sons, then from the way you say you would educate your child, guess which of the two men your child would be? Because I know that mine would be the one you respected, and yours is likely to be the one that would say without any thought 'no you can't go in your shoulders are uncovered, tough!'

Anyway, I come from Spain, when this standing up wouldn't have been accepted easily. My parents, and all people who went to school in Franco's regime, were made to stand up and do the fascist salute every morning when the teacher came in, so the new generations have been educated in rejecting similar shows of submission and unjustified discipline. Complete BS, they have been 'educated' no such way. The reason they no longer do it is because there is no fascist regime in place.

One last question. If you and your son were sat at a table and a lady came over to join you, would you both stand up? Is it a sign of submission or courtesy? Or would it not even cross your mind to stand up?

jetset lady
20th Aug 2010, 11:38
there is a difference between courtesy and respect

This is where I differ. (Sorry, Stockie! :\) I think they go hand in hand and one is a result of the other even if only at the base level. After all, if you have no respect at all, why bother being courteous? We've all been in the situation where someone does something to lose your respect and depending on how serious their misdemeanour is, courtesy and politeness generally go out of the window. However, I do think respect and "like" are completely different things.

From reading through the thread, it seems that there are many different levels ranging from the basic respect for strangers right up to respectful admiration of someones skills and knowledge. Could it be that all these other words such as courtesy, love and admiration are just descriptions of the different levels of respect?

Jsl

P.S. Whirls, I would indeed respect your gardener in the same way I respect the Pilots onboard. Unless of course, he killed all my flowers, drank all my tea and was rude to me. Then he'd feel the sharp edge of my tongue!

Whirlygig
20th Aug 2010, 11:43
JSL ... he does drink all my tea :}

Cheers

Whirls

jetset lady
20th Aug 2010, 11:48
Ahh! But I bet he doesn't kill all your flowers and isn't rude to you as well! If he does, then I'll have to start a new thread entitled, "Assertiveness....How To Stop Your Gardener Drinking All Your Tea, Killing All Your Flowers and Being Rude To You!" :E

Lonewolf_50
20th Aug 2010, 12:35
there is a difference between courtesy and respect
This is where I differ. (Sorry, Stockie! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif) I think they go hand in hand and one is a result of the other even if only at the base level.
I don't think you have the right of that.
After all, if you have no respect at all, why bother being courteous?
It is useful social lubrication that avoids unnecessary friction. IF it is grounded in a genuine empathy for other people, in general or specifically, so much the better. But that grounding is not necessary for courtesy to operate, though I think it is necessary for respect to be felt and displayed.

You can be courteous to another and still hold that person in contempt, or have little respect for them. I've seen it happen a lot over the years, paricularly in uniform, but also among regular people.

Respect has to do with your inner feelings and assessments, and judgments of another person. It is a gage of value reflected in their being and actions. Your respect for another person may change over time if your interactions, and the person's actions, vary considerably. For example, you may lose the respect you had for a clergyman if he gets caught diddling a parishoner; you may lose your respect for a cop if he gets found beating his wife; you may lose your respect for your uncle if you find he's been robbing his company blind for years whilst banging his secretary while you aunt was at home with the kids, fixing dinner, and so on ...

Courtesy is a set of behaviors that you offer, either for the sake of form or because you sincerely believe positively, to reduce friction and make for pleasant interactions between people.

If you pay attention, you can hear different inflections and tones of voice when people say the words "please" and "thank you," depending on the scenario.

They are being courteous, but what is going on inside may or may not be respect for the other person.

jetset lady
20th Aug 2010, 13:31
It is useful social lubrication that avoids unnecessary friction

That's actually a really good point, Lonewolf and one I hadn't really considered. It would suggest that courtesy is actually a tool we use not only out of respect but also in some instances, for our own benefit to make life easier. I can't argue with that!

Damn! I hate being wrong! :suspect: ;)

Rengineer
20th Aug 2010, 14:09
JSL:
"Assertiveness....How To Stop Your Gardener Drinking All Your Tea, Killing All Your Flowers and Being Rude To You!"Sorry if we might be drifting off into linguistics here, but I think it's possible to be respectful and assertive at the same time.

Answering your original question, I think a basic respect for people as fellow humans is mandatory and should be instilled in all of our children - it certainly is in mine. Above and beyond that, I may respect some people more than others for what I perceive to be their personalities, or achievements, or possibly (bot not necessarily) for the office or position they hold. This last, as some have pointed out, is the most precarious. However, in case I feel anybody, however respected, drank my tea uninvitedly, in a literal or metaphoric way, I will respectfully tell them to bl**dy well bring their own next time. := I have made the experience that sort of assertiveness is almost universally accepted by respectable people, and also helps one maintain one's self-respect.

Yours respectfully, etc. etc... :cool:

Flying Lawyer
20th Aug 2010, 15:32
jetset lady Is it just me? Am I hanging onto old fashioned ideals that are no longer practical in today's world?
No, it's not just you.
There's nothing impractical about those 'old fashioned' ideals. Unfortunately (IMHO) some people in today's world don't think they are worth preserving.

Vld1977 If this headteacher needs to gain respect by stupid authoritarian orders like standing up, to me it means that they have to impose that respect, as they don't get it for their professional role, and as such, I would defend my child if he doesn't stand up when they come in, actually, I would encourage him not to stand up.

At what age (in your view) are children capable of assessing whether a particular headteacher has done sufficient in his/her 'professional role' to deserve their respect?
Do you encourage your child only to obey school rules he considers reasonable?
Do you see no value in children being taught discipline at school - even if that sometimes means being made to do things they consider unnecessary or silly?
Children aren't born with good manners. They don't have (for example) an innate knowledge of when to say 'please' or 'thank you' so most of us make them do so while they learn. Do you regard that as an unreasonable imposition upon children?

You accuse others of mixing respect with blind submission. IMHO, you are confusing the two.

Anyway, I come from Spain, when this standing up wouldn't have been accepted easily. You are bringing up your child in the UK, not Spain.


.

Gentleman Jim
20th Aug 2010, 17:26
Sorry Basil

Helps what or who??:confused:

You have illustrated what can be the punishment for failing to abide by either Military or Civil Law. Law again is different to respect or authority.

Can you clarify, What argument or person are you trying to help?

rgbrock1
20th Aug 2010, 17:28
Jim:

Is "law" not "authority"? :ok:

Gentleman Jim
20th Aug 2010, 17:46
rgb1
I am obviously not using the :ok: enough so I offer an apology and a few here;)

By definition law is

a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authoritySo in terms of the authority, they are the ones who enforce the law. Hence my comment about describing punishments. I am not being obtuse or difficult, I genuinely don't know where Basil is driving with his statement. What is it supposed to help in the context of this thread? I may have missed a post he is specifically responding to.

What Basil describes is that everybody for example in the military and military flying, conduct themselves the way that they do out of fear of consequence. By using fear of consequence there is absolutely no reason to develop leadership and command ability in our NCO and Officer cadres because it is irrelevant. Having been in the military for a long time, whilst fear of consequence can be used, it is not the norm and certainly not the way to get the best out of people in a demanding professional situation.

I can choose to follow orders and instructions out of respect for my boss, not just because of authority. If I have no respect or believe the orders to be illegal or just something i don't want to get involved with, then the consequence will be punishment imposed by the authority controlling the law. Hope that helps:ok:;)

rgbrock1
20th Aug 2010, 17:50
I see your points Jim.

I follow the instructions of my boss not out of respect but simply because if I don't I prefer not to be shown the front door!!! And she has the authority to do so.

I certainly do not respect her as she is a first-class dolt who hasn't a clue about a clue.
(And even if a clue happened along and bit her in the arse, she still wouldn't get it.)

Pugilistic Animus
20th Aug 2010, 18:15
only if you are a De Comtesse---then you are Spanish nobilty in Puerto Rico since the 1700's:}

Gentleman Jim
20th Aug 2010, 18:18
rgb1

I genuinely feel sorry for people working in that situation. The good news is that will all change when you move to that little island mate:ok:

rgbrock1
20th Aug 2010, 18:22
Jim:

There isn't a day which passes by where I don't check Virgin Islands Jobs | Find & Post Jobs in Virgin Islands | Career.VI (http://career.vi) !!!!!!

I'd rather rake beach sand and sell trinkets to tourists than continue on in the I.T.
world. Burned out and had enough.

Lance Murdoch
20th Aug 2010, 18:42
I agree that courtesy and respect are different. There is absolutely no reason not to show courtesy to anybody be they the waiter or the Queen of England.

Respect is something that should be earned, however to what degree is due to the relative position of the two indiviuals concerned. I would not expect a headmaster to go out of his way to command the respect of a 12 year old school pupil on first acquaintance as the headmaster needs to be seen to be in authority to do his job. If he subsequently abuses his authority then he loses the respect which his position requires.
The other extreme is my situation at work which is a difficult and highly technical role (excuse my modesty) where engineers such as myself are not going to respect someone just because it says manager in their job title and here managers have to work hard to gain the respect of their staff. This system is highly effective at weeding out those managers who have blagged their way into the position.

Unquestioning deference to authority is different to respect. It is highly dangerous in any society and usually ends up with atrocities such as the Holocaust.

Lonewolf_50
23rd Aug 2010, 15:29
That's actually a really good point, Lonewolf and one I hadn't really considered. It would suggest that courtesy is actually a tool we use not only out of respect but also in some instances, for our own benefit to make life easier. I can't argue with that!
Damn! I hate being wrong! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cwm13.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Your servant, ma'am, and I think you were less "wrong" than simply seeing a different facet of the gem than I was. :cool:

Now, let's see __ I've got ahold of this long dangling bit of an elephant ... is it the tail, trunk, or that other dangling bit? :confused: Oh, for the gift of eyesight. ;)

Vld1977
27th Aug 2010, 02:33
Two quick points as I haven't got much time.

Gentleman Jim,

I am sure your children are respectful, law-abiding citizens, and I congratulate you on having made this possible, something that, in this world, must make a person feel very proud. My parents educated me in a different way, and me and my sister are also law-abiding, respecful citizens. That makes no difference. Courtesy and manners can be very subjective. As for your last question, no, I wouldn't stand up, first, because I don't live in the 50s, second, because I despise of several acts of "courtesy" that are ceremonial and do not have a practical implication of your consideration for others' welfare, like holding a door open, standing up on the bus to allow an elderly person to sit down or saying "thank you" to show appreciation for an action, and third, and most importantly, because it strikes me as being plain sexist. What's next, telling our sons that they have to be respecful with their wives by "helping" them with home tasks?

Flying Lawyer:

My children don't need to be capable of assessing if the person in authority has done enough to deserve respect. They just have to know that the person is in a position of authority (headmaster) and that they have to show respect. Obviously, the purpose of them going to school is learning, and they have to grant respect to the person in that capacity. Standing up has nothing to do with education, nor it has the purpose of avoiding disorder or misbehaving in the classroom, help facilitate learning, or other practical educational and social purpose. In the army or the police, which are institutions based in a strict chain of command, it is necessary, because the effectiveness of the soldier or police officer is partly based on their commitment and the ability to obey orders. If we go down that road for schools, we are turning symbols of submission (aknowledgment of willingness to take orders and never question command) into shows of respect. The fact that it's considered (although sexist) polite to stand up when a woman approaches a table, does not imply the same meaning as in an organised social organisation such a school, where it's not a show of respect, but of acceptance of the authority of the headmaster in extra-educational matters. And to be honest, I trust the headmaster to organise effectively my children's education, not to be their leader.

I am bringing up my child in the UK, not in Spain, yes, but that does not mean that the fact that I come from abroad somehow invalidates my opinion when I witness something questionable. I would do that here, in Spain, and in whatever place I happen to be. I am not a fan of cultural relativism.

Gentleman Jim
27th Aug 2010, 03:38
vid1977

What a thoroughly awful person! I certainly don't live in the 50's, it is 2010. I am amused that you bleat that standing up when a woman approaches the table is sexist. I guess the wonder of the internet is conversing with people who in real life I would never mix with due to their hateful nature.

Cacophonix
27th Aug 2010, 05:02
It is interesting to study societies where there are strict social and cultural laws or rules that pertain to actually 'showing' deference or respect. Societies such as Japan require such rituals and I suspect to a greater or lesser degree they are intrinsic to human nature and are required to some degree in all societies and sub-cultures.

Japan FAQ--Japanese Manners and Etiquette (http://www.thejapanfaq.com/FAQ-Manners.html)

The higher primates also have strong forms of ritualised respect through the use of grooming, body posture etc. I suspect that as apes at the apex of primate evolution we humans have some kind of genetically hardwired inclination towards the same behaviours.

With respect to Vld1977's contradictory post, I now understand the basis of the self indulgent churlishness that is often seen here in the UK.

GANNET FAN
27th Aug 2010, 09:38
Gentleman Jim and NambiFox, you have both correct in your comments about vld1977, what a singularly uncharming person he and his children must be. I have visions of him barging an old lady out of the way to get a seat on the tube first.

Lonewolf_50
27th Aug 2010, 12:16
vid, just curious: do you barge into queues or do you wait in line in the order you arrived?

vulcanised
27th Aug 2010, 12:22
Vld may well be lacking in social skills, but I bet he knows his 'rights'.

Vld1977
27th Aug 2010, 23:10
As I clearly said in my post, I do stand up on the bus if a person needs to sit down, I do stand in line and respect the queue order, I do hold doors open for the next person. These are examples of what respect and social decency is.

I am a very respectful person, mind you. I know how to behave in society and, simply, don't agree with your views that authoritarian habits are the way to make people in society to be respectful for each other. If it has to be the threat of punishment that makes me behave respectfully, I don't think it would work.

And Gentleman, please state the reason why standing up when a woman approaches the table, and remaining seated when it's a man who does, is not sexist. Is there any other consideration for doing so than gender? Isn't it a show of condescence to someone you believe needs to be treated in a more gentle way? Whatever standing up for women stands for, it's based on just one thing: gender inequality.

And, for the record, if the way I am addressing you and the way you are addressing me are a sign of the respectful attitude of each one of us, I reckon I don't want to be as "respectful" as you.

Please do keep dreaming of your "respect gained through authority" utopia, nowadays seen every day in gang culture. The rest of the world will move on and see respect as a natural and social thing. Oh! and don't forget to stand up when your boss enters the room.

Cheerio!