QF and JQ B787s to be flown by new startup company

[OneDotLow]

Hi All,

Apparently JQ staff were informed today that this is the plan at present.

All the more reason to show up on the 23rd!

No pilot currently (or henceforth) employed in Australia is immune to this threat that management is wielding against our conditions!

The rot must stop!!!

[Jabawocky]

start up company....AOC the whole nine yards?:eek: and what about ETOPS with a new a/c and new AOC holder.............

this will be entertaining........:8

[Capt Fathom]

This is news?

The B787 was never going to be flown by present Jetstar pilots!

I have mates overseas who will be given the positions with Jetstar to fly the 787.
They have done interviews and accepted the positions!

As for Qantas guys. Will they shoot themselves in the foot? More than likely!

[OneDotLow]

AOC and ETOPS .... No worries at all! Those being difficult to attain is a thing of the past.

JQ Intl had 180 minutes right from the start. CASA don't really care about our industrial squabbles.

I think the aim is to do to us (QF/JQ pilots) what they did with cabin crew (QCCA, QCCD, Team Jetstar).

We can only hope that their divide and conqur mentality has finally pushed us all to unite!

[Kanga1]

Start up company with ETOPS (EDTO) with a new aircraft type on a new AOC. Not impossible. V Australia did just this a couple of years ago.

[Jabawocky]

B777-300ER is not exactly a new a/c type. So V Oz had a head start there.

[Kanga1]

The B787 will undergo ETOPS approval by the FAA and JAA as part of the certification process and will enter service ETOPS approved. As was the B777 some 15 years ago. No big deal!

[skype]

Don't worry many an EK 777 guys ready and willing guess some CX and not too mention the Koreon guys had enough of the contract job. They can just go onto another contract outfit albeit for an exciting airline :eek: the white rat.

There has been readings from the shisha smoke already of this enterprise. When the EK pilots are doing 92+ hrs lots looking for exit plan, many have buckets full and its not the cash bucket :ok:

[Roxy_Chick_1989]

tart up company with ETOPS (EDTO) with a new aircraft type on a new AOC. Not impossible. V Australia did just this a couple of years ago.


AFAIK, The triple comes with ETOPS 'out of the box'

[waren9]

The 787 was never going to the JQ EBA. Those who came back early from well paid jobs overseas on promises from old mates must be feeling pretty good about it.

Is there a scope clause in any of the QF mainline EBA's? If not, they'll be lucky to get one in now.

[woftam]

Surprise, surprise. NOT!
This was ALWAYS going to happen :ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

Qantas and Jetstar pilots, get on the phone/email/text/smoke signal to your mates at VB and Tiger and lets meet up on the 23rd at Wooli Creek in SYD.

Time for our profession to work together, pool resources to protect our jobs.

[breakfastburrito]

woftam, correct. The modus operandi of the "Qantas Group" & potentially the "Virgin Group" is to generate as many possible subdivisions, with the smallest number of employee's as possible. Implicit in this strategy, is an acknowledgement of the the raw potential power of the pilot group, as a whole
The fact that pilots have been singled out, is no accident. This is the chink in managements logic.
However it needs everyone to see this how this potential is dissipated through the infinite division by the managers, to the great enrichment of these same managers.
As I have said before, the responsibility's for the outcome is in our own hands, as a pilot group, regardless of what is painted on the tail.

[A. Le Rhone]

As per discussion on the Sticky thread there are sentiments on this thread that I find disturbing if not inevitable.

Examples: "Surprise, surprise. NOT! This was ALWAYS going to happen, This is news? The B787 was never going to be flown by present Jetstar pilots! As for Qantas guys. Will they shoot themselves in the foot? More than likely. I have mates overseas who will be given the positions with Jetstar to fly the 787. They have done interviews and accepted the positions"

So once again we have armchair experts all claiming to have been privvy to this alleged further attack on Professional Aussie Pilot jobs and sneering at the rest of us mere peasants who weren't in the know. Moreover there are images of hoardes of 'mates' overseas who have clandestinely already been interviewed and recruited (without anybody else knowing) for the 787 and will stealthily slip in and take your slots on the shiny new silver jet before you get a chance to. Panic, panic, panic.

Scaremongering and fear.

What better way to undermine any traces of pilot unity than to start a scare campaign with the sole intention of frightening you into persisting with the crap terms and conditions (or even eroding them further) than you currently 'enjoy'.

There is a looming global pilot shortage the likes of which the industry has never seen. Before the GFC airlines couldn't get decent pilots; they weren't there. JQ, even with the gift of ex-AN pilots had to drop their onerous interview requirements and now it's worse. Worldwide there are massive airframe orders and there has been steady pilot attrition with insufficient replacement.

So what better way to keep you supressed than to fill you with fear? Alleged this and alleged that. Masses of Asians coming to fly your planes (only this Asian isn't because JQ don't pay properly) and new companies to bypass you altogether. If I were a manager perhaps I'd try the same thing - but can't you see what the real agenda is? Fear is a powerful managerial tool.

I have no doubt the likes of JQ will attempt everything they can up to the limits of legality to undermine you guys but for crying out loud don't be swerved by the PR techniques they are deftly employing to engender fear. They know pilots are a fractured and divided lot and that many of us would kill grandma to boost our own egos and be seen flying the latest shiny jet!

The 787 is just another aeroplane, plastic fuselage and subsonic. Big deal. Don't let yourselves be swerved from the very real need to for a coherent and united group - a group with the strength to fight the real threats and dexterously manage the perceived threats.

[big white bird]

What ALR said...:ok:

[sunnySA]

From the current Qantas FF newsletter

New 787 Dreamliners

Qantas has announced it will receive the first of 50 Boeing 787s (http://edm.qantas.net.au/cts/click?q=61%3B83753%3BxUjOieLPGBeb%2FQw4%2B%2FVcPGAUN3gOkueMP V0mOdP4GpRP%2F%2BvCk%2BtmHQ%3D%3D)in mid 2012, brought forward by around two years. Jetstar will operate the Group's first 15 B787s configured for its low fare international operations.


Flying into the Future

Qantas has selected the Boeing 787 as the cornerstone of its domestic and international fleet renewal program. Under the fleet plan, the Qantas Group will acquire up to 100 Boeing 787 aircraft. The first 50 Boeing 787 Dreamliners are expected to be delivered in mid-2012.

[Mr. Hat]

ALR the only way for this to be stopped before it goes right out of control is a as you say a united front.

An AIPAAFAPVIPA merger (in my dreams also) presenting to the politicians and getting into the mainstream media.

If its not stopped now it will get right out of control in a short time space.

[The The]

QF and AIPA begin negotiations over the next Longhaul EBA, rumours start about a "start-up company".

Surely not a coincidence?

[Keg]

And now Qrewroom down too? It's all a big conspiracy I tell ya! :}

EBA time. Guaranteed FUD campaign. :suspect:

[Gingerbread]

Current AIPA President and current AIPA Secretary torpedoed a closer working relationsship between AFAP and AIPA back in 2007 . . . what chance now? Changed their tune maybe? I hope so . . . I can take hypocrisy but not stupidity.

[Going Boeing]

Gingerbread, I'd like to know what you are talking about. Both those gentlemen do not have antagonistic personalities and are not shortsighted whereas the AFAP has a history of acting in its self interest - not in the interest of its members.

[A. Le Rhone]

Yeah whatever - get over it and move forward or forever be relegated to the sidelines.

[OneDotLow]

Well said ALR. (Your first post - the one above this one I am not really sure what/who you are talking about/too).

[bugsquash1]

Sorry to burst your bubble Gingerbread, but pre-2007 I asked the top rats of AFAP about a merger and reading between the lines there is no way they were interested.
I suspect they did not want to lose the small power base they had as showed by the attempted take over of the mutual benefit fund.

Just of interest in the early 2000's I also had an informal chat to the then president of AIPA about the fact that the regional pilots would fly the QF jets for a lot less due the the lack of support the AIPA had given them. He dismissed this and also stated the AIPA would only be a QF union and regional pilots didn't count.

Then came Impulse and he made Chief pilot, so politics run deep.

I finally hope Aussie pilots can get their act together at the meeting, although I doubt this if union pen pushers have their way, remember they have their own barrows to push.

[-438]

Qantas will not decide where a specific aircraft type (787) will operate or what colour it will be painted based on pilot salaries.
It may well however choose who flies these aircraft based on costs, such as pilot salaries.
Anyone who is suggesting pilots from well paid airlines (Emrites, Cathay) will flood to a new entity operating these aircraft may want to learn of the pay, conditions and basings applicable before commenting to loudly.
It's time to bury the past and unite for this race to the bottom to end. The only upwards pressure can come from a united front.

[Mr. Hat]

So what do the heads of AFAP AIPA VIPA think now is the question. Is it time to present a unified front?

[Boomerang]

Before ya'll get too excited. Is there a source of the info that started this thread?

Contrary to post #1 Jetstar pilots were told a couple of days ago the Jetstar 787s would be crewed by Jetstar EBA crews. Words directly from the Chief Pilots mouth.

Until I see it written, signed by the CEO and board, I'm still open to rumors though... or should that be until I'm pushing back in it ;-)

[waren9]

Boomerang

Dont be fooled by semantics.

EBA pilots will indeed have "the opportunity" to fly the 787. What the CP didnt say is that it wont be on the EBA, and thats what should give everyone pause for thought.

Joyce has already said the 787's will be based out of SIN. Do you honestly believe that JQ will pax and pay allowances/accom for EBA pilots if they dont have too?

Remember, the latest mantra is all about being "regionally competitive".

Only when JQ EBA pilots are pushing back in it, will I believe it.

[OneDotLow]

Joyce has already said the 787's will be based out of SIN

Has anyone got a reference for this? Specifically that this will be where the first ones will go?

[Beer Baron]

Capt Fathom you say:
I have mates overseas who will be given the positions with Jetstar to fly the 787.
They have done interviews and accepted the positions!

I find that VERY hard to believe. They have accepted jobs flying a jet that won't be delivered for 2 years on an unknown contract???
I would suggest that your "mates overseas" are very foolish or full of s#!t.

[blow.n.gasket]

Has there been any info forthcoming reference getting AusALPA up and running as "the Australian "pilots union?
If not ,why not?
There has been plenty of talk and not much action.
Come on, wouldn't the present circumstances be the best precipitator yet to finally get everyone heading in the same direction?

[TurbTool]

This whole thread is just a wind up.

The CP said the 787 will relace the A330 on the current JQ network flown by JQ pilots on the current EBA. As a 787 arrives an A330 departs to QF.

Yes there may be a couple go off to Singapore at that time but that is outside of the Jestar EBA. A commitment was clearly given that B787 arrives as A330 departs on EBA 2008 conditions.

Get real everyone. A former JPA president often said "you blokes are pissing before your flies are open". Nothing has changed.

[dizzylizzy]

So the A330's will be deployed on existing 767 domestic operations? Or have the international configuration?

[Mr. Hat]

flown by JQ pilots on the current EBA.

Not what I've been hearing from J* colleagues. Word of contracts from all of them.

[A. Le Rhone]

I tend to agree with TurbTool's post a few back - what better way to keep you scared and manoeuver you into continuing with crap contracts than wind you up with anecdotes of hoardes of expat pilots already having signed 787 contracts etc etc.

Nonetheless it is clear that for their own ladder-climbing reasons, airline CEO's will attack your Terms and Conditions wherever they can and if they are allowed to get away with employing inexperienced pilots or poorly trained foreign pilots they will. You guys are the only ones that can stop them at this stage (unless there is an accident like Garuda/Colgan when governments are forced to do something). Pity it should have to get to that stage before somebody does something.

Apologies, I reposted the following from the pilot meeting thread because I reckon it's just as relevant here:

I'm Listening to Australia News Network and they are reporting that AIPA is organising a meeting because J* pilots are dissatisfied with salaries pilots will get paid for the SIN-MEL sector.

Humble suggestion: can I suggest you concentrate on safety and the implications of fast-tracking non-Australian trained and licenced aircrew. Get a PR company to start working on this (PR is important - seen the Gruen Transfer?). Airlines can spend millions on advertising but this expenditure is pointless if the public perceives they are reducing safety margins - and as we know that's exactly what they are trying to do, purely to further line their own pockets with $.

Going-on about salaries will win no public support. That improvement will come about as a natural part of the looming global shortage (see the Asian Forum - this shortage as already savaging Tiger and PAL).

Focus on safety. This is the key to success not salaries.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
One thing to be factored in ----and I don't think it has been mentioned so far.

VH registered aircraft can be based in and operate to CAAS rules if they are subject to an 83bis agreement (look it up in the Act) between Australia and the Republic of Singapore. About the only reason to maintain VH registration would be leasing/finance/tax considerations.

Ergo, CASA does not get a look-in.

Something else to bear in mind, when it come to swapping aircraft between bases, an aircraft does not have to be on the Australian register to operate on an Australian AOC.

Certainly an attractive proposition for any operator ---- without regard to who the pilots are, there are some serious savings to be made in maintenance overheads, just for starters.

Tootle pip!!

[grrowler]

The CP said the 787 will relace the A330 on the current JQ network flown by JQ pilots on the current EBA. Well I guess that confirms it then....

[Tankengine]

Don't trust these management pricks!:yuk:

After the meeting today I hope the AFAP and VIPA etc get on board with AIPA to finish forming and improving the new body AUSALPA !:D:ok:

The meeting today showed lots of unity, the beginning of good things!:ok:

[neville_nobody]

This whole thread is just a wind up.

The CP said the 787 will relace the A330 on the current JQ network flown by JQ pilots on the current EBA. As a 787 arrives an A330 departs to QF.

Yes there may be a couple go off to Singapore at that time but that is outside of the Jestar EBA. A commitment was clearly given that B787 arrives as A330 departs on EBA 2008 conditions.

Get real everyone. A former JPA president often said "you blokes are pissing before your flies are open". Nothing has changed.

Do you really believe that? Do you really believe that the Singapore base will only be a small operation with a few aircraft? Do you really think Jetstar management tell the whole truth?

Geoff Dixon once said that Jetstar would never take over Qantas flying.

This whole SIN base thing is a test. It's a test to see what they can get away with. At the moment it will probably be only a couple of aircraft and a small operation. In ten years time it could possibly be the only way to get a start in Jetstar.

I think CASA also need to be brought into this too. This country has far to much of a double standard when it comes to regulation. I'm sure if a GA operator tried to start operating foreign registered aircraft on an Australian AOC they would be doing their best to shut them down or transfer their aircraft registration, but when it comes to QF they are too scared.

[halas]

Don't get too excited about expats coming to fly the 787.

If it's like the last time JQ came head hunting in DXB for the 330, there won't be too much of an exodus.

halas

[fourgolds]

Halas , I would'nt be too sure about that.

[-438]

If pilots want to get out of the desert, that is understandable.
Is there any point leaving Dubai for Singapore or Saigon?? Then factor in the wages and conditions.
If they leave for an Australian based position then it will be at the bottom of the list.
Unless a new entity is created in Australia to crew these aircraft. The only reason QF would do this is to cut wages.
Do you want to be the next group of undercutters?
And what will you be willing to accept?
Maybe a change of career would be more fruitful.

[halas]

Sorry Fourgolds, just stating an observation.

The three posters above have indicated why there will probably be no mass-exodus.

Personally, l couldn't give a rats ar$e. There won't be a slot for me as l am not interested in going back to Oz to fret my career away again. And certainly not interested in exchanging this foreign dump for another one.

halas

[Rabbitwear]

I dont think the first lot of DECs were warmly welcomed, around half have resigned the rest are stuck in Darwin for a very long time and also face the prospect of going back to the right seat.
The ex-Emirates DECs are about to get sent to CNS for the rest of their tenure.
Good luck joining at the bottom.:mad:

[rowdy trousers]

The CP DID NOT say that the 787 would be flown by EBA pilots under the terms of the 2008 EBA, he said that EBA pilots would have the opportunity to fly the 787 - as in take LWOP and transfer to the new Jetstar entity on what ever that contract may be.

[Sunstar320]

Well here you go, from the goose himself.
The first aircraft is due to be delivered to Jetstar in mid-2012.
"It doesn't drive any thinking on the 787s. The guys that will fly the 787s will be the guys flying our wide-bodied aircraft today," Mr Buchanan said, adding that they would be employed on the same contracts as they are today.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Well here you go, from the goose himself.
Quote:
The first aircraft is due to be delivered to Jetstar in mid-2012.
"It doesn't drive any thinking on the 787s. The guys that will fly the 787s will be the guys flying our wide-bodied aircraft today," Mr Buchanan said, adding that they would be employed on the same contracts as they are today.

Don't believe him folks. Just a throw away line to slow the uprising.

[mourgo]

Watch this space soon for a new OZ airline flying overseas on A340s and A330s then 777LR later on! Will be a sensational airline to work for!

[Going Boeing]

Can't be that sensational an airline if they are planning to operate A340's! :ugh:

[Kanga1]

Emirates Australia Airlines

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Watch this space soon for a new OZ airline flying overseas on A340s and A330s then 777LR later on! Will be a sensational airline to work for!

Oh dear..... RMA Gold are STILL playing virtual airlines????

[arkmark]

Dont worry all -- PAX aren't stupid.

We won't fly airlines who are hood winking us.

If we choose Qantas then we will choose Qantas.

If Qantas continue to fly us with aircraft and pilots operated/maintained by lower standards then we will choose other airlines based on service and price.

If Qantas has no credible product to offer then we will go elsewhere and get better for less.

The QF FF program thereafter fades to obscurity. It's one of the last reasons I stay hanging on.

God knows they have little else to keep my business other than my reluctance to change. My staff could care less.

Simple.

[relax737]

"There is a looming global pilot shortage the likes of which the industry has never seen".

Mate, if you believe that will translate into better T&C's for pilots, you'd believe in the tooth fairy.

I posted further up that I heard that line in the mid 70's when I took my first lesson, and every year since, and I'm surprised that supposedly intelligent people are still falling for it.

The greatest potential desperate shortage I've seen was in 1989 (please don't take this as a prompt to start the war all over again) and even that was a fizzer. There were plenty of pilots to fill the jobs.

[CaptCloudbuster]

The greatest potential desperate shortage I've seen was in 1989 ........... There were plenty of pilots to fill the jobs.You've just provided a good example of supply and demand driving UP wages.

You are correct that there were sufficient "suitably qualified" (that point is debatable) Pilots willing to fill positions for a price.

That price was significantly higher paypackets.