Battle of Britain History - but not as we know it.....

[Wobbler Fang]

Several months ago the RAF PR in MoD began moving the excellent content of the old history section into the new and largely unusable format.

In an amazing inability to simply cut and paste, the entire new version of the Battle of Britain campaign diary has been transplanted by 4 days, the original starting on the 10th July, the new starting on the 14th July. However, each page was transferred as if the start date were the same.

Consequently, for those who didn't realise it, Adler Tag now took place on 17th August, not 13th August as originally scheduled. Could any survivors of the Battle please amend their log books accordingly.

And in the 70th Anniversary year too. Hmmmmm. Any chance of getting the original website team back? At least you could find things.

[Agatha]

Wobbler Fang - Many thanks for bringing this inadvertent error to our attention. Work is currently in hand to correct the error. Apologies for any offence caused.

[Wobbler Fang]

Agatha - Nice nick! I am very glad to hear that. Could you also re-link all the Luftwaffe pages missing under their header page too, as the map links don't work on the new site? And get rid of all the non-Battle of Britain types from the wallpaper gallery and calendar? (In fact, there is only one image from the period of the Battle in there.) And get someone to have a hard look at some of the press pack information, particularly the Spitfire and Hurricane page? And re-align then link the list of Commanders names on the Fighter Command Organisation page to the biography page of the Commanders? And take the bit about the map below off the top of that page as it doesn't exist any more and is on a different page? Finally, could you re-establish the roll of honour of pilots who fell in the Battle, since that seems to have disappeared completely.

There are many more lesser errors, perhaps having someone look at it with a bit of a toothcomb might be in order, particularly with reference to the excellent original site which is still available from your old history section.

Can I just ask, did anyone actually read these pages before they transferred them? I think this is an intolerably poor show for the RAF's premier Battle in its 70th Anniversary year. How many schoolchildren view this as their premier source of information for course work?

[Always a Sapper]

Suggestion....

As the whole thing seems to be a right ...... why not get the original web pages up and running until the 'new' site is sorted?






Ahhh.... that my taxi? hat & coat too... how kind :ok:

[PPRuNe Pop]

This url has always since I can remember been the one that refers to the BoB on a daily basis and the Roll of Honour is intact therein.

The Battle of Britain - Home Page (http://www.raf.mod.uk/Bob1940/roll.html)

Btw, I am sure there are mistakes but one that has always slightly annoyed me that Geoffrey Wellum's name in the above roll is spelt with an 'a.'

[Wobbler Fang]

Yep, thats the address of the original website. The new one doesn't have the roll of honour at all. And you are right, that mispelling is annoying.

[Barbara S.]

I'm entirely new to PPRuNe. Was on duty, a WAAF plotter in the Ops Room, RAF Kirton-in-Lindsay, Sunday 9/15/40, my 23rd birthday and now Battle of Britain Day. On the 70th anniversary this year, I will be 93, still alive and kicking, but not kicking as high. I remember everything about that morning. If you'd be interested in hearing what happened in K-in-L then, I'd be happy to supply the details.

Do you know why MoD has changed the date of der Adler Tag? Is it that important?

TTFN......Barbara S.

[kookabat]

Barbara,
I'm sure there would be many people interested to hear your story - can I suggest posting it on this thread - http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11-99.html - ?
There have been a number of outstanding sets of memories posted there from former aircrew (mainly bombers but a few fighter guys as well). The WAAF perspective is one we don't get to hear from much and would, I think, would add immeasurably to the history...

Regards,
Adam

[Props11]

Hey Barbara,

RAF Public Relations here, would you be interested in telling your story to someone like the RAF News? If so I would be happy to provide your e-mail / phone details to them, so they can get in touch - no stress if you don't fancy it, but it would be great if you did!

Rgds

:ok:

[PPRuNe Pop]

But Barbara!

We saw you first! We would be most pleased to hear from you as proposed by kookabat above.

As a matter of fact I have just finished reading the BoB book written by Marcel Jullian and, yes, Adlertag is, and always was, 13th August, which was designated to start at 0730 by Goering. As you know the best laid plans are governed by weather and this started the rot.

Yes please do add to our definitive MIL forum.

How people think they can just, seemingly at a whim, just change history is beyond comprehension.

PPP

[Barbara S.]

Adam:
Thank you very much for replying to my post. I took your advice and contacted the RAF WW11 Brevet site, and got myself into something I don't know how to handle. I'll have to wait for my son to come and see to it.
Being the complete computer dummy, I'm out of my depth with all these forums and posts etc. I only hope this gets to you safely, because I really appreciated your interest.
Thank you again.
Cheerio......BS

[Barbara S.]

RAF Public Relations:

Thank you for your message, (thread?) If you think RAF News would be interested, then please go ahead with your proposal, but remember, Kirton was a training station, not front line, and nothing spectacular happened there that BofB Day morning, except that I well remember it all.

After passing OSB in summer of '40, I only wanted Intelligence, and that had just been closed to WAAF for an interesting reason. It was over 2 years before it opened to us again. I passed as Intelligence Officer Feb '43, and was posted to Bletchley Park, where one of the first things I saw was recce photos of the invasion barges, hundreds of them, piled high with war materiel, all lined up along the inner waterways of the French coast across the Channel. Invasion was very real at that time, and the Few saved us. God bless them all.

TTFN......BS

[Barbara S.]

PPRuNe PoP:

Thank you for your message. I did log on to the "Gaining Brevets for WW11 RAF Pilots" site, as Kookabat suggested, and spent considerable time typing a resume of my service, (over 6 years), but something went wrong in the sending. Altho' I briefly saw my efforts in print, a page came up saying it couldn't be sent. What went wrong, I don't know, and will have to wait for my son to come and tell me what idiotic thing I did. I rarely use the web sites, and being the complete computer dummy, am not used to procedures, and don't know how to put things right. Perhaps it's possible you may be able to find that resume somewhere in cyberspace?

Meanwhile I've given permission to RAF Public Relations to go ahead with their proposal......TTFN......BS

[Low Flier]

The BBC Today programme (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10989709) is doing a piece on the BoB.

In the web page writeup they quote a shocking encounter in 2010 Britain:

Ronald Tooke [who was 19 in 1940] recently went into a shop near his Hampshire home, wearing his Battle of Britain badge.

The young shop assistant asked him what it was, so he told her. "And which Battle of Britain would that be?" she asked. And it was not a joke.:ugh:

[Barbara S.]

Low Flier:
Re your post on Ronald Tooke's recent experience in Hampshire:-
Apart from the few History buffs I've met here in the States, few Americans are aware that WW11 started 9/3/39. The war history here starts 12/7/41, and so many of the TV programmes on WW11 show only US military exploits. Rarely is another country mentioned. I enlighten them every chance I get. Ignorance is not confined to present day Britain, it seems to be a worldwide trend.
TTFN......BS

[rab-k]

I see the ROC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Observer_Corps) get a brief mention here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/Bob1940/controlsys.html). There's been a distinct lack of coverage of their contribution during the BoB in the media, or have I just missed it :confused:

[Mike7777777]

The first military operation of WW2 was probably in 1937 when the Japanese invaded China. The very short Home Service item this morning re: historical aspects of the BoB left more questions unanswered than it resolved, but then we could not allow an over run into Desert Island Discs, oh no. Probably available on the BBC website, 0830 hrs onwards.
For most under 40's, WW1 and WW2 are irrelevant, and yet both conflicts and the results of the conflicts continue to shape the lives of most Europeans (language, relative freedoms, dominance of the US etc).

[Double Zero]

Mike7,

It's not as bad as people think.

True, when I worked upon a barge in Burgundy in 1994 ( long story ! ) the French chef, a very good guy then aged 24, was astounded when I lent him my copy of the B of B film; he'd never heard of the Battle of France let alone Britain !

Maybe there's a reason for that...

He already had his own hot air balloon and 'flew' a Mirage simulator in his cabin, so was quite air-minded; his eyes nearly came out of their sockets as I pointed out the stumps of bridges taken out either by allied infantry, retreating Germans or maybe Typhoons.

On the other hand, at Tangmere Museum, where I was a guide last year, a great effort is made to encourage schools, we would often host school parties who came prepared with projects either on 'what it was like', for civilians as well as pilots & groundcrew, or individual biographies.

It was heartening to see the number of young and indeed foreign people ( I remember once having a charming German couple to chat to, and explaining that the dummy & portrait etc depicting a German pilot was accidentally facing the British pilot against whom he'd fought ).

Plenty of West Sussex children know all about the Battle of Britain, hopefully the same applies elsewhere in the country.

Another example; once years ago I was sitting with a chum outside 'The Ship' at Itchenor one Sunday lunchtime, having sailed there for a weekend.

It shows it was a while ago, as a gang of 'punks' were outside too.

I thought I heard 'something significant' in the distance, then it materialised into a Merlin.

It was Nick Grace in his Spitfire, who proceeded to do an improptu ( may well have been practice ) display, seemingly all for our benefit.

The punks stood up and cheered...

So there is still hope for newer generations !

[Sir George Cayley]

If I'm still alive aged 93 let alone communicating across the seas I'll be quite pleased.

Barbara S, I can only salute you in words.:D:D:D:D:D My dear old mum was a Wren deep under the cliffs during WWll then in the OC. Her stories resonate more because of you contributions.

Sir George Cayley

[ACW599]

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

Thank you.

[Andu]

Barbara, my apologies if this appears to be teaching you to suck eggs, but a hint that many of us who write here frequently follow: don't write your stories straight into the Pprune site, but instead, write them 'off line' into Microsoft Word or whatever word processing programme you use - and save them. Then 'cut and paste' into the PPrune site. (Your son will show you how to do this very simple thing if you're not familiar with it.)

Let me join the others in saying I am waiting eagerly to read your story.

[Roadster280]

Barbara,

A fellow Brit in the US here. I was in Colorado, not far from Colorado Springs either, just this morning. If only I'd logged onto Pprune, I'd have moved my travel plans to help you share your stories.

Kirton may not have been "where it was at", but Bletchley Park certainly was.

Thank you for your service, as they say in these parts.

Roadster

[AdanaKebab]

Barbara, You'll be pleased to know Kirton, although becoming an army unit for many years, currently houses No1 ACC (Air Control Centre). They received the keys to the town last year for services in Afghanistan. So times don't change too much.
It's not often plotters, (or more commonly now known as Aerospace Battle Managers / nee Fighter Controllers) get praised on pprune. About time! Thank you for your service in war. If it wasn't for your generation we'd all be speaking German .. and I'm terrible at it!

[Barbara S.]

Sir George:
There were many Wrens at Bletchley Park billeted on the Duke of Bedford's estate. I had no contact with them, however, but I have photos of them working on Colossus, the first computer ever built (1943) to cope with breaking the German High Command high grade cypher.

Our Senior Service, the Royal Navy, was the only service not to discriminate against women. They were the "Womens Royal Navy Service" --- WRNS, known as Wrens. The RAF called us WAAF, "Womens Auxliary Air Force", (changed post war to WRAF by Duncan Sandys Parliamentry Act), and the poor Army gals were ATS, "Auxiliary Territorial Service". (I hope I've remembered that "A" correctly).

There was a naughty joke going around the other services at that time, at the expense of the WRNS. Here it is, and I hope you're not insulted because of your mother having been a Wren. "One cold January morning, two Wrens went into the sea for a dip, and four blue tits came out." Perhaps you've already heard it?

TTFN......BS

[racedo]

few Americans are aware that WW11 started 9/3/39. The war history here starts 12/7/41,

Babs

Welcome and do intend to read your story when its up.

It appears from the dates that you have :( gone native in the colonies.

[Barbara S.]

Andu:

Thank you very much for your helpful info. I've said before I'm the complete computer dummy, but I'm certainly learning, and my son will show me what to do when he comes next time.

I seem to have opened a can of worms, and I apologise to everyone for taking up so much space here. As I told PPRuNe Pop the other day, on the advice of Kookabat, I spent a considerable time typing a precis of my service (over 6 years) on the "WW11 Brevets for RAF Pilots" site, but on trying to send it, it disappeared into space. There are so many things I remember of those years, my stories would make a whole chapter of a book, much too much to record on the web, altho' I've typed out many of them.

Thank you for your interest......TTFN......BS

[Barbara S.]

Roadster:
Thank you for your post. You must have been in the States for some time, as you seem to have absorbed the language. At the risk of getting my face slapped, I'm a one woman campaign against using "at" to end a sentence. Quote --- "Kirton may not have been where it was 'at'. The 'at' is not necessary, and a sentence shouldn't end in a preposition, but that usage of 'at' has crept into the vernacular here during the past 10 to 15 years and practically everyone says it, and it is incorrect grammar. Would you like to join me in my campaign or would you like to punch me in the nose? Have you ever heard Churchill's famous saying? "A preposition is a word up with which I will not put"......Cheerio Pip-Pip......BS

[Dimmer Switch]

Like the others BS, I look forward to reading your recollections. Your indomitable spirit, and that of those around you then and since, is what once made Britain Great. Thanks:ok:

[Barbara S.]

AdanaKebab:
Thank you for your update on Kirton. I knew it was still operational, because an RAF contingent comes down to the Springs from Aurora, near Denver, to attend the BofB Day ceremony here, hosted by the RCAF, and at my first ceremony in 2008, they told me. I thought it was still RAF, tho'.

"Aerospace Battle Managers"? What a high falutin' mouthful! I would much rather remain a plain old plotter.

I'm spending far too much time on these posts, altho' they are so interesting and new to me. It is already past midday here, and I have to go get some brekka. When you get to be my age, you're not hungry early morning......TTFN......BS

[Roadster280]

Well that's me told :)

I'm reminded of a joke, excuse the mildly bad word at the end.

A young chap from out in the sticks is lucky enough to gain a place at an Ivy League university. On his first day, he stops a more senior student and asks:

"Excuse me, could you please tell me where the library is at?"

The older student snaps straight back:

"I don't know where you're from, but here, we do not end sentences with prepositions".

The young man thinks for a second, and adjusts his question:

"Excuse me, could you please tell me where the library is at, asshole?"

[Barbara S.]

Roadster:

Well, that's me told, too.

Seriously, tho', the 'at' is not needed. "Where's he at?" need only be, "Where is he?" Why waste words? Especially when it's bad grammar. I don't think grammar is taught in schools here any more, along with other things.

You didn't say whether you would join me in my campaign or punch me in the nose. I'm truly sorry if I offended you, but this 'at' business really bothers me.......TTFN......BS

[Barbara S.]

Rab-k:
I wrote an ROC story especially for you about RAF Kirton-in-Lindsay' s first night raid. I saw it in print, but it didn't send and is hanging in space somewhere.

Kirton was in 12 Group and we received plots in the Ops Room from ROC Lincoln. When I've worked out what is wrong with my sending abilities, I'll try it again --- it would have cheered your heart.

TTFN......BS

[Barbara S.]

Racedo:
I havent been called Babs for donkeys' years. This month, I have been in the States for 64 years, apart from 6 1/2 years in Havana, Cuba.

I arrived in NYC (New York City) on August 8th 1946, aged 28, on a Bride Ship, no less, that having been the only transport available at the time. (So many stories). Yes, it's been a long time, but I have never "gone native", I am still me.

TTFN......BS

[Flash2001]

Everyone from Newfoundland knows that the correct usage is "Stay where you're to and I'll come where you're at".

After an excellent landing you can use the airplane again!

[RAFWebMan]

We have for some time been transferring the RAF History from the old RAF website to the new one at www.raf.mod.uk (http://www.raf.mod.uk). Unfortunately we sometimes have errors and for this I apologise but I firmly beleive that the new site is clearer and easier to access. We are continuously updating and improving the way the information is provided. However, if you find something wrong you can email us directly at www.raf.mod.uk/contactus.cfm (http://www.raf.mod.uk/contactus.cfm) of for those in the Service you can contact me at SO2 eComms at HQ Air Cmd.

Although no excuse, I have a very small team to run the RAF Internet, RAF AirSpace, Social Media sites and many aspects of Engagement Delivery. So we do sometimes get things wrong but I am a great believer in our fine history and will do my best to get it displayed and improved as best as I can.

[Peter-RB]

Barbara S,

It is amazing how the straight talk (or written word) of an enigmatic English Gal can stop most people dead in their tracks.:D

Well done, you are as Blunt( read honest ) as the people in my neck of the woods, I think this is wonderful you remind me of my old Aunt Doris who used to pack parachutes for the aircrew.:ok:

my regards
Peter Russell-Blackburn from Lancashire

[forget]

You may have time to correct this before Barbara wakes up. :hmm:

Done. :ok:

[Double Zero]

Barbara,

( I feel a little uneasy addressing a Lady as such, I suppose that's being English ) - forgive me if it's already been mentioned, but how about a book ?!

If you got the right agent they would do the leg-work, and you might even get a handsome profit !

[Peter-RB]

Forget.

Many thanks, I was never top of the class in English, mine was more Hunting , Shooting, Rugby, Cricket, Drinking and Gals, oh , and to pay for all that I spent about 90 hours a week farming 2300acres of the West Ridings Best, took your prompt for me to see the problem, Thankyou.:ok: Barbara S sounds just like my old Aunt Doris, she would pull me up for speaking with slang words, simple things like Tanner(sixpence) Bob(Shilling) and Quid (one pound) if I said it again she whack me! Good days Eh..!;)

Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb

[Agatha]

As readers of this thread may know we encouraged Barbara to write all her Battle of Britain and WWII memories down in a word document which she has now done and is attached for your reading pleasure! RAF FCA Message Board - WWII from a WAAF's Point of View (http://www.raffca.org.uk/cgi-bin/fca1/YaBB.pl?num=1285139278/0)

Enjoy :ok:

[Suffolk_Punch]

In addition to the link that Agatha has posted, there is also a page here (http://www.raffca.org.uk/historysaks.html) and a PDF of the same text here (http://www.raffca.org.uk/yabbfiles/Attachments/WWII_from_a_WAAF_s_Point_of_View.pdf).

[Double Zero]

Barbara,

I have just read your story, quite fascinating and thank you for letting us see 'what it was like' from a different perspective.

For info', you mention ships with Hurricanes on catapults; these did indeed exist, they were known as 'CAM Ships'.

They were usually merchant ships, and the pilots were supposedly 'on rest' from normal operations ( some rest ! ).

I believe pilots from the RAF and Fleet Air Arm took part, this was chiefly a stop-gap to keep away the menace of the long range Focke-Wolf Condor bomber / reconaissance aircraft, until the small Escort Carriers were available.

Andy

[Deskex76]

OK, not Battle of Britain, I know, and a diversion from Barbara's wonderful reminiscences of life just up the road from me but could we return briefly to the case of inaccuracies on the RAF History part of the Service's website?

I was idly trawling through said site in the pursuit of information about the Stirling when I happened upon this: RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/hampden.html) .

It would appear the that one of the major drawbacks of the Hampden's design was that ..."it was not fitted with powered fun turrets".

Does nobody at the MOD proof-read copy before publishing it or was the fun turret, like the Enigma machine, yet another great British invention that for decades remained shrouded in secrecy ? Surely Duncan Campbell should have told us by now... :hmm:

[Suffolk_Punch]

Does nobody at the MOD proof-read copy before publishing it

Warranting a thread of its own, no doubt, it seems that the pages you viewed are full of such errors, but it'll surely be put down to 'Never in the field of RAF websites has so much (work) been placed by so many (top brass) on so few (workers)'! I'm sure the donation of a Round Tuit would solve the problem once and for all time, but where does one find such an item in these bleak times :ugh:

[Double Zero]

Deskex,

Don't think the British invented 'Enigma' !

The Fun Turret is still classified...