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Cacophonix
17th Aug 2010, 08:37
I was delighted to see this story in the press this morning. All power to Professor Rosenthal who has struck a blow for grammar against the kind of dishonest corporate doublethink that seems to pervade society these days.

While not focussing on the named company (we don't want to enrich the barristers) what types of corporate English and mangled logic irritate PPRuNers?

Lynne Rosenthal, a college English professor from Manhattan, said three cops forcibly ejected her from an Upper West Side Starbucks yesterday morning after she got into a dispute with a counterperson -- make that barista -- for refusing to place her order by the coffee chain's rules.

Rosenthal, who is in her early 60s, asked for a toasted multigrain bagel -- and became enraged when the barista at the franchise, on Columbus Avenue at 86th Street, followed up by inquiring, "Do you want butter or cheese?"

Read more: "Stickler" English professor Lynne Rosenthal: Starbucks booted me over a bagel order - NYPOST.com (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/venti_size_fury_A0uKw71Ky1UAOksmbjrBhI#ixzz0wqXK8bq6)

green granite
17th Aug 2010, 08:50
What was wrong with saying "neither" to the question?

Any what would a Yank know about English :E

Parapunter
17th Aug 2010, 08:52
Any what would a Yank know about EnglishIf you're going down that road, you gotta make your own grammar work proper like.

B Fraser
17th Aug 2010, 08:56
The Daily Telegraph have the full story here. Well done that woman !

Quote -Prof Rosenthal, who described in the incident as “very humiliating”, said she had previously clashed with Starbucks staff over the terminology for specifying the size of her coffee – an issue that riles the chain’s customers on both sides of the Atlantic.
Instead of small, medium and large, Starbucks labels its cups tall, grande and venti.

English professor 'thrown out of Starbucks after objecting to corporate language' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7949440/English-professor-thrown-out-of-Starbucks-after-objecting-to-corporate-language.html)

I have often been tempted to ask a Barista if they ever do pro bono work.

Gentleman Jim
17th Aug 2010, 09:32
Namib, BF

Have you two forgot to take your medication this morning? The woman is totally 100% in the wrong. She was asked a perfectly civil question and became 'enraged'! Does she believe all the workers in such businesses have a PhD in English? How many times will the barista have served the bagel after such a question to be told, 'I wanted cheese', 'but you didn't say that madam', 'yes but you didn't ask'.

Then she just refuses to say one word on her own misguided principles.

She sounds like a completely appalling woman to be honest. Must be a slow news day.

B Fraser
17th Aug 2010, 09:40
I think you miss the point Jim. I object to the role playing that goes on in the name of their corporate image. If I want a large coffee with a splash of milk, I'll ask for one. If some people think it's cool to ask for a venti americano then that's fine by me, the game is optional not compulsory.

Maybe I should insist that they ask for "coinage of the realm" instead of money ;).

Cacophonix
17th Aug 2010, 09:44
GJ

I think that Ms Rosenthal was making an issue of the fact that the use of lexical or semantic manipulation by corporations often forces us into implied contractual relationships that almost always benefit the company that defied natural language logic to enforce these artificial rules. There is little doubt that the cheese/butter question implied extra cost to the customer.

At another level she is defying the illogicality of verbally excluding the concept of a 'plain bagel'.

If Ms Rosenthal is a linguistic agent provocateur then I am on her side. Perhaps I just like her fiesty style. If she did call the 'barista' (now there is a silly pompous term - since when did the serving of coffee imply such majesty?) an *rs*h*le then I enjoy this tale even more. Who in NYC hasn't been called such at one time or another?

Now where are those meds? ;)

tony draper
17th Aug 2010, 09:47
What the hell is a Barista?:uhoh:
Sounds furrin to me.:suspect:

Blacksheep
17th Aug 2010, 09:50
If we're going to be pedantic about our English, what on earth is a toasted multi-grain bagel?

In fact, what is a bagel? Filthy foreign muck.
It would be much better to eat a good, clean, toasted sandwich made with slices of bread cut from a tasty, wholesome farmhouse loaf.

I once tried to order a sandwich in a Seattle sandwich shop. I gave up in frustration, fortunately without the police being called. :rolleyes:

tony draper
17th Aug 2010, 09:55
Yer,and none of this new fangled electric toast either,proper honest toast done on a fork in front of a stout coal fire.:rolleyes:

foresight
17th Aug 2010, 09:55
This lady was in the wrong simply by entering Starbucks in the first place.

sisemen
17th Aug 2010, 09:57
The lady asked for a bagel. The shop assistant asked whether she wanted butter or cheese. Simple. She asked for a bagel not butter or cheese.

Perhaps the shop assistant should have said "Would you like butter or cheese on your bagel madam?" then all would have been alright with the world.

I'm sure Monty Python could have made a sketch out of these circumstances. In fact they may well have been filming for a comeback season. :}

Cacophonix
17th Aug 2010, 10:04
She asked for a bagel not butter or cheese.Spot on and the fact that the company has defined the cost of a bagel as really meaning the cost of a bagel with butter or the cost of a bagel with cheese is just disingenuous.

Personally I prefer bagel with jam. A crime I know! :ok:

Isn't it a image building by people walking in the streets holding a coffee cup and sipping at times? Hey ! look ! I do belong a group of people which are sophisticated busy person going to work and enjoying the way we are.

I agree that these companies are trying to engender this association with so called 'sophistication' (hence barista and all the other drivel that goes with a cup of coffee).

In this case they banged into a spiky sophisticate who has made her point rather well I think.

Whatever happened to plain old (small/large) cup of coffee?

marsie
17th Aug 2010, 10:08
Many years ago, on my first visit to the USA, a nice lady in a take away outlet in Manhattan appeared to be asking me if I came from Togo. I never did find out why she thought that.

UniFoxOs
17th Aug 2010, 10:22
proper honest toast done on a fork in front of a stout coal fire

With dripping, of course.

UFO

goudie
17th Aug 2010, 10:22
The crux of the problem is that most food outlets (I hesitate to call them restaurants) in the USA like to offer lots of choices, try ordering an icecream in a shopping mall.

If Ms Rosenthal has an issue with the eating out culture in her country then I suggest she eats at home. Taking up cudgels with and innocent counter assistant, just doing his job as he has been trained and paid to do, suggests to me that she has a bullying nature!

Gentleman Jim
17th Aug 2010, 10:32
Nambi

Firstly I must apologise as in my hurry to post earlier I forgot to add a little ;), so I hope you do not feel I was being rude!

Anyway back to this woman, she clearly made an error herself. Prior to the dispute she goes in and

asked for a toasted multigrain bagelBut later, talking to the media she says

"If you don't use their language, they refuse to serve you. They don't understand what a plain multigrain bagel is." Maybe if she would have asked for a plain multigrain bagel in the first place then the 'barista' (I thought from the title you were going to tell us something about Lawyers;)), would have understood.

Windy Militant
17th Aug 2010, 10:33
I agree with her I'm totally fed up of having to wait for ages while they faff about with the pantomime of do you want grated goats droppings or ferret dandruff on your skinny latte mocka chino rubbish every time I stop for a brew on my travels. Whats even worse the proper caffs with the spoons chained to the counter and buckets of builders tea are getting fewer and further between.:(

Flyt3est
17th Aug 2010, 10:35
The crux of the problem is that the mad old cow needs to get a life.. Really, is it THAT big a deal?

BF - If I want a large coffee with a splash of milk, I'll ask for one. Operating on that theory, it's just as well you didn't bimble down to your local car dealership and ask him for a German two seater thats a bit nippy, otherwise that shiny pile of Stuttgart metal that you keep in the garage might have been a Smart roadster!!! ;)

And before anyone says "Hey FT whats wrong with a Smart Roadster".. They are gay, get over it.:E


FT

Gentleman Jim
17th Aug 2010, 10:39
I agree with her I'm totally fed up of having to wait for ages while they faff about with the pantomime of do you want grated goats droppings or ferret dandruff on your skinny latte mocka chino rubbish every time I stop for a brew on my travels

So why do you go in there then?

I am fed up with eating processed crappy meat made in to so called burgers, so it must be pushing 10 years since I have been in MacDonalds. It is about choice. Even if I am starving I would not go in a MacDonalds if it was the only place around that was open, so why go in Starbucks when you want a brew? If you are the type of chap that likes a 'brew' then take a flask in the car just in case:ok:

Cacophonix
17th Aug 2010, 10:41
Firstly I must apologise as in my hurry to post earlier I forgot to add a little http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif, so I hope you do not feel I was being rude!

Not at all GJ, if I can't take a bit of mild, good natured, ribbing then who am I to be supporting a catankerous old lady who was clearly rude to the employee who was only mindlessly following corporate policy! :ok:

Having been bawled at by many deli and coffee assistants in my brief sojourn in that great city I don't think they are generally easily to bully. Just like barristers really!

Parapunter
17th Aug 2010, 10:52
The woman sounds like a pain in the rear - especially if you were running late & stood behind her in the queue, however, she has a point. Why should we be inveigled, no, coerced into co-opting their corporate speak? It's nothing more than social engineering cooked up by a marketing department bent on profit in full ignorance of an ancient language that's doing very well by itself thank you very much.

B Fraser
17th Aug 2010, 10:58
Fly - If you ever ask to go in the back of something Russian with a huge lump and a neat tail which will take you to heaven and back then be very careful.

You could get this


http://www.skycontrol.net/UserFiles/Image/Photography_img/200704/200704yak52-etienne-verhellen-11.jpg

or something else you weren't expecting !

;)

Torque Tonight
17th Aug 2010, 11:11
"Do you want butter or cheese?"

"No, thank you" would probably have been a satisfactory answer if she didn't want butter or cheese. Not too difficult but clear and concise. Everyone's happy. If you're an abrasive old trout who likes to be unpleasant to people then that could be shortened to just "No".

"I refused to say 'without butter or cheese.'"

The deranged old bat was clearly going out of her way to generate a bit of conflict. Overworked underpaid staff just do not need that sort of thing, and as a store is under no obligation to serve a particular person it should be no surprise that she was asked to leave and not come back. I'm sure those behind her in the queue were delighted. Nice that the English professor managed to call the barista an a-hole. She must be proud of her elegant command of the language. Don't like Starbucks, then don't go there. Simples.

Cacophonix
17th Aug 2010, 11:20
The deranged old bat

Perhaps, but it is nice to know that there is a generation of Americans who are being tutored by logical thinkers with a bit of pepper in their veins. In these mindless, corporate times such vinegar tastes like wine to this dyspeptic old bar steward.

Gainesy
17th Aug 2010, 11:25
Isn't it a image building by people walking in the streets holding a coffee cup and sipping at times? Hey ! look ! I do belong a group of people which are sophisticated busy person going to work and enjoying the way we are. It is the message. If you belong to or claim to belong to a group , you have to play by it's rules.


No. Its a cup of coffee.
Tch.:rolleyes:

bnt
17th Aug 2010, 12:29
If we're going to be pedantic about our English, what on earth is a toasted multi-grain bagel?

In fact, what is a bagel? Filthy foreign muck.
Seriously, you've never had a bagel? The dough is boiled for a short while before baking, which "seals" the bagel, so they're very practical. They keep really well, even in the fridge without going mouldy. Freezing works great too, and they take only a few minutes on the counter to defrost sufficiently to slice and toast.

On my first visit to New York City in 2001, one of my first stops was to get a bagel with lox and schmear (smoked salmon and cream cheese) - I'm not even Jewish, and I do some very non-Kosher things to bagels at home, but when in New York ... ;)

Blacksheep
17th Aug 2010, 12:32
Try asking for a "Latte" in an Italian coffee bar after 10 a.m. and all you'll get is a shrug. (Or some grated goats droppings sprinkled over a cup of warm milk.)

Seriously, you've never had a bagel? Young man, until I joined the Royal Air Force I had not even seen a bay leaf until one turned up in my dinner.

Bagels I understand. My paternal grandmother was Jewish (until she married grandad and became an outcast). Meanwhile, nobody seems to be willing or able to explain to this English chap exactly what a multi-grain bagel is and why anyone from the proper English speaking world would wish to eat one; with butter or cheese; or without either.

MagnusP
17th Aug 2010, 12:44
Blacksheep: Here y'go. Very tasty they are, too.

http://365healthyeats.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/picture0048.jpg

tony draper
17th Aug 2010, 12:47
Ah ok those things, I just ask for half a dozen of those buns wi a hole in the middle.
:)

Gainesy
17th Aug 2010, 12:47
Ah, a burnt scone then.

goudie
17th Aug 2010, 12:52
Pray, what is the purpose of the hole? Please, no rude dough nut jokes

Matari
17th Aug 2010, 13:04
Pray, what is the purpose of the hole? Please, no rude dough nut jokes

The purpose of the hole is what makes the difference between warm, toasty, crispy doughnuts and lumps of fried sticky dough called "oliebollen" in Netherlands.

A hole in the middle allows more surface area exposed to heat (or oil), which provides a larger, crisper, cooked area. But with an oliebol, there's nothing more unpleasant than biting into a bit of fried dough only to find the inside is soft, sticky and raw.

Maybe it shows the difference between European and American thinking. Take something that is passably good but the same for centuries (like an oliebol) and make it much better with a simple change (doughnut).

Lonewolf_50
17th Aug 2010, 13:05
Pray, what is the purpose of the hole?

So one can put a string or chain through them, and use them either as jewelry ("bling" in NYC urban newspeak), or as currency. (Like those old Chinese coins with a hole in the middle).

As to Starbucks and their pretentious pseudo Italian tripe ... it's why I don't take my custom there.

Parapunter
17th Aug 2010, 13:14
Maybe it shows the difference between European and American thinking
Since they were invented in Poland hundreds of years before we Europeans had even thought about civilising America, I don't see how you work that one out.

Three Centuries of Bagels ? Forward.com (http://www.forward.com/articles/14502/)

Ancient Observer
17th Aug 2010, 13:18
..........Why would anyone in their right mind ever go in to a Starbucks anyway?

Windy Militant
17th Aug 2010, 13:31
So why do you go in there then?

I am fed up with eating processed crappy meat made in to so called burgers, so it must be pushing 10 years since I have been in MacDonalds. It is about choice. Even if I am starving I would not go in a MacDonald's if it was the only place around that was open, so why go in Starbucks when you want a brew? If you are the type of chap that likes a 'brew' then take a flask in the car just in casehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Dear Mr Jim I haven't been into a MacDonald since 1979 when I was visiting rellies in London and my cousin insisted we try the "best thing ever" blach :yuk: (And I still curse them for allegedly getting Bretts Burgers in Oxford closed down :mad:)
However those of us cursed to roam the Motorways don't always have the opportunity to fill our thermoses so are stuck with the provender supplied by the services which in a lot of places now is down to costa bomb or starbulks.
I haven't been to that neck of the woods for a while but a bit more more my style is The Skyreburn Teapot on the A75. A bit cosy but if the weathers good you can sit outside and enjoy the view and the company of the robin and the rest of the wildlife that hang around there. Better company than the clientele that frequent the corporate chains! ;)

tony draper
17th Aug 2010, 13:36
Not had a Macdonalds for years,yeterday whilst visiting retail world one visited the new Macdonalds there ordered a Big mac and have to say thoroughly enjoyed it, so there.
:rolleyes:

radeng
17th Aug 2010, 14:03
I have never been in a Macdonalds.

Are they as cr*p as they appear?

tony draper
17th Aug 2010, 14:13
For some reason the Coke or Pepsi or whatever it is one gets in Macdonalds always tastes better than anywhere else,well for me anyway.:)

Ancient Mariner
17th Aug 2010, 14:22
radeng, we (wifey and I) were forced into a McD at gunpoint by our grandchildren while treating them to a cultural and historical (read shopping, shopping and eh...shopping) guided tour of Oslo.
They are as crap as they appear, they will remain in your digestive system doing unpleasant stuff for 60 hours and they are equally unpleasant to permanently dispose off.
They also come with some sauce they call "dressing" that tastes like Heavy Fuel Oil, drips like Marine Diesel and are about as easy to get rid of as debt.
In short, no thanks.
Per

OFSO
17th Aug 2010, 15:10
Hostias !

I'm FED UP TO THE BACK TEETH with idiots in the UK responding to my request for an "Americano, please" by saying "do you want that white or black ?"

Per el ultimo vagada, an "Americano" is a LARGE BLACK COFFEE.

If I want a coffee with cow juice in it, I'll ask for it.

And don't get me started on calling a coffee a "latte".

Or a mobile phone a "handy".

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!!

etrang
17th Aug 2010, 15:21
The barista said, 'You're not going to get anything unless you say butter or cheese!' "

But Rosenthal, on principle, refused to back down.

"I didn't even want the bagel anymore," she said.

The bagel brouhaha escalated until the manager called cops, and responding officers ordered her to leave,


If she didn't want the bagel, why didn't she just leave the shop and stop wasting everyone's time?

wings folded
17th Aug 2010, 15:42
radeng, we (wifey and I) were forced into a McD at gunpoint by our grandchildren while treating them to a cultural and historical (read shopping, shopping and eh...shopping) guided tour of Oslo.
They are as crap as they appear, they will remain in your digestive system doing unpleasant stuff for 60 hours and they are equally unpleasant to permanently dispose off.
They also come with some sauce they call "dressing" that tastes like Heavy Fuel Oil, drips like Marine Diesel and are about as easy to get rid of as debt.
In short, no thanks.



A while back, had one of grown up daughters back home, helping empty stuff out of the attic. We were slightly busy, so did not really have the time to concoct a nice simple gastronomic meal.

She charged off and brought back a collection of unrecognisable alleged foodstuffs, which she had bought at MacPoison.

I ate it.

One of my biggest mistakes in life.

I have a robust digestive system as a rule, but this shite resisted all attempts at assimilation.

I have eaten rancid camel grease in the Maghreb with less problem.

In fact, by contrast, it was quite yummy.

A couple of days later my daughter was still complaining of the pervasive pestulance of my flatulence.

All I could do was to remind her whose fault that was.

Um... lifting...
17th Aug 2010, 15:43
When I must patronize Starbucks (air terminals and the like), I order a 'short'.

They know what (and are trained to know what) it is, they carry the cups, they hate to serve it, it has little profit margin and little air or whip. You can't find it displayed on their boards and the price isn't listed (it's cheaper). There is less dilution with the other rubbish. If you want a cup of coffee that is actually only a cup (8 oz.) of coffee, that's what you order. A 'small' is a 'tall' which is 12 oz. Confusing? Really?

The trouble (one of many, I imagine) with this woman is she thinks that some 19-year-old barista (is baristi the plural?) has a clue besides what they get at "Starbucks University". Somehow I can't see Noam Chomsky holding the linguistics line at a 'bucks. But perhaps that's just me.

Starbucks Drinks Simplified (kinda) (http://www.quicksilverweb.net/sbucks/sbcharts.htm)

Tankertrashnav
17th Aug 2010, 15:52
Personally I prefer bagel with jam. A crime I know! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif



Not at all, anything that makes a bagel taste of something is to be recommended, although why you dont have toast or some other sort of bread roll is beyond me.

As I understand it bagels date from the time the Jews were wandering in the desert with no access to yeast and boiled the dough instead of baking it. Now they are out of the desert and there is yeast a-plenty I dont see the point these tasteless things.

Barista - someone who pours you a cup of coffee ffs! I put this in the same category as rodent extermination operative. Ridiculous!

Parapunter
17th Aug 2010, 15:54
Toasted raisin & cinammon for me - lovely start to the day!

tony draper
17th Aug 2010, 16:14
One is indifferent to coffee,Nephew is a Coffee nerd with all the mysterious brewing kit and has more silver foill bags of special stuff than one could shake a stick at, he brews me different kinds each time I visit,one has never said owt as one is reluctant to hurt his feelings but one would have soon have instant, Tea now,that's different,one is very fussy about me tea.
:)

Matari
17th Aug 2010, 17:32
Parapunter,

I was talking about doughnuts, not bagels.

Back to the Netherlands...try finding a decent meal outside of the tourist areas of Amsterdam that is not a formal, site-down affair after 8pm (when the Albert Hein closes). By decent, I mean something other than bitterballen and krokets at the local pub.

The McDonalds on the A12 between Arnhem and Utrecht is filled with Dutch folks happy to have something fast and cheap eat, rather than paying 19 Euros for a formal meal with surly service that takes forever.

Funny how all these horrible American establishments become so popular in the lands of strict conformity.

sitigeltfel
17th Aug 2010, 18:13
Funny how all these horrible American establishments become so popular in the lands of strict conformity.For all the supposed French antipathy towards the USA the Macvomits car parks here are seldom empty. The bikers all run around on customised Harleys and if a Mustang or Camaro pulls up they are all drooling over it. To be seen with anything other than an iPhone invites social disgrace and even their favourite rock star, Jonny Hallyday, has tried for decades to be the French Elvis (very, very, badly).

robtheblade
17th Aug 2010, 18:14
Say what you like about McDonnalds, their service and customer awareness is second to none. Many years back when money was tight I would eat there. Get down to the last few chips and mouthfull of burger and take them back saying they were cold. No hessitation they would replace the full meal and do it with a smile.

A few months ago I went into one before going to the cinema. Tried one of their poncy new lines, bloody aufull. One of the staff asked if my meal was ok. Told her the box had more taste. The result being I was given the meal of my choice along with an apology. Also, their coffee is twice as good as Starbucks and half the price.

wings folded
17th Aug 2010, 18:44
Told her the box had more taste. The result being I was given the meal of my choice along with an apology.

Did the second meal taste better than:
1) the first
2) the first box
3) the second box

con-pilot
17th Aug 2010, 18:45
You think that the people at Starbucks had problems with this woman, I think I was married to her once. :uhoh:









PS. I like my bagel with peanut butter.

Parapunter
17th Aug 2010, 18:52
I used to be friendly with the finance director of Starbucks UK - she quit because of the pressure & she is an extraordinarily capable woman - the place is a boiler room at the top levels. Make of that what you will.

G-CPTN
17th Aug 2010, 18:56
the place is a boiler room at the top levels. Make of that what you will.
She was an old boiler?

Pugilistic Animus
17th Aug 2010, 19:52
English professors, tend to be histrionic and a bit disconnected from reality, I think I did well the first class because the professor was such a flamer that he gave all the [handsomish] guys at least 2 letter grades higher than than all his pissy little rules dictated,...the second required class was not to bad, in fact, at the end the teacher said "you should be a lit major" :\:\:\

"Starbucks Talk" such crap, hate the looks I get for ordering a large coffee---Sometimes I order entirely in itallian just to prove a point---:rolleyes:

wings folded
17th Aug 2010, 20:09
Why bother even entering their premises?

Um... lifting...
17th Aug 2010, 20:12
As I understand it bagels date from the time the Jews were wandering in the desert with no access to yeast and boiled the dough instead of baking it. Now they are out of the desert and there is yeast a-plenty I dont see the point these tasteless things.

Uh... that would be matzo, and I think you're confusing the unleavened thing with the boiling thing.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Matzoh-0851.jpg/200px-Matzoh-0851.jpg
This would be a bagel. And if you think they're tasteless, you've never had a real one.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Bagel.jpg
A properly toasted bagel with smoked salmon is sublime. You can have the schmeer... just leave me the lox.

I'll try asking for a double shot short with cold milk on the side and see what happens. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Basil, I wish you good hunting.

Juud
17th Aug 2010, 20:14
Crew hotel at MEX charges blood money for net access. It´s free at the in-house Starbucks. Even if my laptop remembers the login password that they haven´t changed for years so I don´t need the chit, I always order some food or drink item to fulfill my side of the contract,
Problem is, I forget the size names.

3 people in front of me order in English so I reckon that´s safe.
"An espresso please"
"What size?"
... espresso only comes in one size, maybe English was a bad idea ??
"Pequeno por favor."
"That somethingorsomething, something-something or venti?"
Ahh wasn´t the English that was the problem, obviously. What´s venti? And wtf do they call small again, it was something illogical, I remember that much. Rapidly scan bewildering sign behind the chap.
"Tall please"
Rapid stream of Spanish to the chap making the coffees; I distinctly hear the words "espresso" and "pequeno"... :uhoh:

There is something ever so slightly illogical about calling a small cup of coffee "tall". But Starbuck staff are obviously trained to take orders in Starbuck-speak only, and probably for a good reason.
( I didn´t order that Yes you did No I didnt Well you ll have to pay for it anyway No I wont)
Note to self; rather than slowing down their flow, bone up on Starbuck sizes while in line next time!

McDonald's => clean, fast and deliver exactly what they promise.
Also, on long Japan trips, a true life saver. :ok:

superspotter
17th Aug 2010, 20:23
Life is so much easier in Costa Coffee :)

OFSO
17th Aug 2010, 20:24
McDonald's => clean, fast and deliver exactly what they promise.

I suggest you try the one opposite Milano main train station. What you say may be true, but do they really promise uncleared tables, filth on the floor, and toilets that would make a Dublin pub wc look hygenic ?

Incidently the coffee at the stall inside the railway station is the best in the world and available in any combination of water, milk, foam, etc. Mention Starbucks or MacD to anyone drinking a coffee there and they fall about laughing (or burst into tears).

tony draper
17th Aug 2010, 20:52
I agree with the Mamasan,blokes on the road like me especialy from the mid eighties when all the greasy spoons we used to frequent started disapearing found solace in MacDonalds,they were plentifulthe grub was the same whether in Sheffield or Dundee as I said I enjoyed the occasional Big Mac and coke and it was tasty cheap and cheerfull,think here is a bit of grub snobbery at work here.:)

SoulManBand
17th Aug 2010, 21:22
First of all Starbucks stores are not franchises, they are all owned by the Starbucks corporation.

Second, and this is important. There is no such thing as a multi-grain bagel. There are only two kinds of bagels in the world: black (with poppy seeds on the outside) and white (with sesame seeds on the outside). All this other stuff with raisins, blueberries, multi-grain, etc. was invented by granola-eating Birkenstock wearing aging hippies. The only real bagel is made on St. Viateur st. in Montreal.

Third, if you go to Burger King and order a Whopper, you bloody well better ask for "no onions" if you don't want them or else you'll get them.

Fourth, you better not be standing in front of me ordering a coffee at Starbucks and start asking what sizes they have. Figure it out while standing in line. It is simple tall, grande, venti - finito!

Juud
17th Aug 2010, 21:24
Just so Mr SoulmanBanned, just so. :ok:

OFSO, I can not remember a single post of yours that would indicate acute schizophrenia or advanced masochism.
In fact, you have always struck me as an eminently sensible chap.
So there must exist a logical reason for a sane person to enter a MacDonald´s in Italy.

It´s just that I can´t seem to think of any. ;)

Drapes; food snobbery on PPRuNe?
Whatever next.

Parapunter
17th Aug 2010, 21:37
Bagels are a world child, like pizza. You can argue and be right that they come only from this bakery or that store, but like burgers & pizza, the world has appropriated them & often made them better. Get yourself a lovely deep pie in Chicago & watch Giuseppe from Milano turn red at the very idea!

Sir George Cayley
17th Aug 2010, 21:56
Our local MacD's has just had a make over.

Can't comment on the food or beverages but the toilets are nicer than at home!

SGC

Flying Lawyer
17th Aug 2010, 22:02
Tony D. think here is a bit of grub snobbery at work here.

I assume you don't plan to go to the restaurant the Good Food Guide inspectors have just voted top again - The Fat Duck Restaurant, Heston Blumenthal (http://www.thefatduck.co.uk/)

The set meal @ £150 per head + drinks/wine + the 'optional' 12.5% service charge they add to your bill may seem expensive but it does include borrowing an iPod to listen to the sound of waves while eating seafood. ;)

(Nor do I. )


.

con-pilot
17th Aug 2010, 22:14
Good Lord, the tasting menu has 'mock turtle' soup.

For those prices one would believe that one could be served a real turtle soup.






;)

tony draper
17th Aug 2010, 22:17
True ,one suspects given the choice betwixt Snail Porridge at fifty quid a bowl or a Burger at 3.50p being sane one would opt for the later.
:rolleyes:

Gertrude the Wombat
17th Aug 2010, 22:39
The set meal @ £150 per head
Clearly priced to keep out the riff-raff out to spend their company's Christmas party allowance (I always reckon it's safer to put in a receipt for £149 a head just to be on the safe side).

Re coffee. I ask for what I want. If I want a "large black coffee to take away" that's what I asked for. I can't be arsed to learn all the different jargons in all the different shops. If I come across a waiter/tress whose English is limited to the script and doesn't understand what I'm asking for (which I guess might be the real problem in a lot of these places) I just go next door, there's plenty of choice.

Windy Militant
17th Aug 2010, 23:29
Drapes; food snobbery on PPRuNe?
Whatever next.

I'm off home next week and I'm looking forward to indulging my self at the Emlyn Cafe Tanygroes, proper farmers food. The Roast of the day and a mug of tea for under a fiver and it's all I can do to finish the plateful that I can only just see over the top of, if that's food snobbery then I'm a food snob.:ok:

They're licensed as well, shame I'm driving. :{

RedhillPhil
17th Aug 2010, 23:31
"A coffe with milk please".
"Is that an Americano"?
"No, it's a coffee with milk. Put some coffee into a cup and add warm - not boiled or steamed - milk".
"That's an Americano".
"Listen pal, this almost sixty year old has been drinking coffee in this country for many, many years. It's a coffee with milk".
Sigh. "What size do you want"?
"Medium please".
A container of a size that will let a small yacht float in it appears.
"I asked for a medium, that's enormous".
Sigh. "I'll get you a small one".
A container of a size that will let the tender of a small yacht float in it appears. What happened to proper sizes?
For this I get charged £1.90. The coffee is bitter, the milk is skimmed. What the hell has happened to what is basically a simple morning drink?

con-pilot
17th Aug 2010, 23:35
For this I get charged £1.90. The coffee is bitter, the milk is skimmed. What the hell has happened to what is basically a simple morning drink?

Yuppies, they have no nationality. :p

Whirlygig
17th Aug 2010, 23:46
you better not be standing in front of me ordering a coffee at StarbucksI can guarantee that, in my case, that will never happen. :}

The last time I went into a Starbucks' (sometime round the turn of the century), I asked for a cup of tea. The "barman" went off, came back and asked if I wanted chocolate sprinkled on top. "ON TEA?????", "No, on your cappucino". "I said CUP OF TEA".

They don't do proper tea.

Cheers

Whirls

con-pilot
17th Aug 2010, 23:54
They don't do proper tea.

Actually, from blind taste tests (say that fast three times :p) they don't do proper coffee either.

In that test, and many more because nobody believe it at first, MacDonalds serves a much better coffee.

Go figure.




Oh, I don't drink coffee. So all I can do is report what I read. Remember, I grew up in England, so I drink tea. :ok:

SoulManBand
17th Aug 2010, 23:57
They don't do proper tea.

That's because they are called "Starbucks Coffee Company". And there is no apostrophe at the end. It is "Starbucks". Just world's greatest coffee...

Whirlygig
18th Aug 2010, 00:03
The addendum to that tale is that, when asked if I wanted Earl Grey, Lapsang Souching, Peppermint, Camomile etc etc, I replied, "no, tea; bog-standard, builders' tea". "We don't have that but you can have one of our staff tea bags on the house".

I don't drink coffee either Con and can't comment on MacDonald's tea but I do like a McFlurry ocassionally :}

Cheers

Whirls

GrumpyOldFart
18th Aug 2010, 01:12
Drapes; food snobbery on PPRuNe?
Whatever next.



Coffee puns?


Nah. That'd be grounds for a banning.

:E

SoulManBand
18th Aug 2010, 01:22
"I just wanted a multigrain bagel," Rosenthal told The Post. "I refused to say 'without butter or cheese.' When you go to Burger King, you don't have to list the six things you don't want.

Read more: "Stickler" English professor Lynne Rosenthal: Starbucks booted me over a bagel order - NYPOST.com (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/venti_size_fury_A0uKw71Ky1UAOksmbjrBhI#ixzz0wucSjTE1)


YouTube - Five Easy Pieces Diner Scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wtfNE4z6a8)

Flash2001
18th Aug 2010, 01:31
Unwritten is the rising or falling inflection on the word "cheese" which changes the entire meaning of the response.

I am surprised that posters have placed so little emphasis on the discourtesy to the poor buggers waiting in line behind the pedant. There could have been some entertainment value though.

After an excellent landing etc...

SoulManBand
18th Aug 2010, 01:34
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/419862-grumpy-old-bastard-je-maccuse-post5786771.html?highlight=coffee#post5786771

sisemen
18th Aug 2010, 02:55
It always amuses me how the 'Mericans like to loudly proclaim to all within earshot how they "can't get a good corfee in this lousy country" and that "Merican corfee is the best danged corfee in the world" etc etc. Yet every coffee I've ever had in the States or in American chains like Barsucks has tasted like horse piss. Maybe their taste buds are removed at birth.

Best coffee for me - Hungry Jacks (that's Burger King to a non-Australian). It actually tastes like coffee and it doesn't cost the earth and it comes in plain language (well, at least Australian - flat white=white coffee)

cattleclass
18th Aug 2010, 03:11
I think the prof's problem was syntax and vernacular, not the quality of the product, but she should come down to Melbourne, drink coffee at the buffalo in Ripponlea, and have white or black bagels,without barista bullshit, and watch the world go by, and enjoy them, not be driven by them!, j/x:ok:

Loose rivets
18th Aug 2010, 03:47
There will never be a smell like freshly ground coffee. Proper coffee. Never will be.

Two places in Colchester, just after the war, ground their coffee and pumped the smell out of the buildings by way of a big fan. I used to stand under the fan near our shop and breath in the smell.

"When I get big, I'm going to find a way to mix that smell with hot water, and drink it.":}

Guy D'ageradar
18th Aug 2010, 03:56
sisemen It always amuses me how the 'Mericans like to loudly proclaim to all within earshot how they "can't get a good corfee in this lousy country" and that "Merican corfee is the best danged corfee in the world" etc etc. Yet every coffee I've ever had in the States or in American chains like Barsucks has tasted like horse piss. Maybe their taste buds are removed at birth.

Going by the taste of what they call beer - I concur! :E

pigboat
18th Aug 2010, 04:02
Comes in three sizes, regular, large and extra large. Black, milk or cream, and sugar.

http://www.directoryofhamilton.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/tim-hortons-coffee.jpg

Um... lifting...
18th Aug 2010, 04:18
Guy (this of course has to have that affected French pronunciation... has to)-

As has been pointed out (and doubtless will be done countless times anon, as none of you seem to pay any attention) numerous times to callow furriners such as yourself, it's not our fault you don't know how to buy anything in the U.S. except for Jockey underwear and socks to wear with your sandals at outlet malls, each of which furriners purchase by the hundredweight (How do you think the ignorant Americans knew we were European? It was your socks & Birkenstocks, friend.). You lot thrash about kvetching about such things as 5 or 6% sales tax (because we don't have a ruinous 15 or 20% VAT that's rolled into the purchase price) that you get exhausted having your little tantrum and at refueling time take whatever rubbish gets shoved at you.

A Swedish colleague has just relocated to the U.S. and during his summer move into his house was attempting to refresh himself at intervals with Bud Light. We felt, in the interest of welcoming, that we would exchange that for an actual beer, of which there are thousands of good ones in the U.S. He once thought like you. He was gobsmacked, nay, had an epiphany. Budweiser, or anything made in tanker lots is not beer. I thought you clever and self-satisfied furriners in your grubby little garrets with your tea cozies, your woolsacks, your parliaments, your snug little welfare states with your cows lowing on the hillsides knew that. But apparently not.

Australian coffee is terrific, but if you think you lot don't have your own ordering nonsense, you clearly aren't aware of your own blinders. As Bill Bryson pointed out, to order a coffee in Australia, you have to order a length, a colo(u)r, and apparently, an orientation to the perpendicular. i.e. "Short Flat White". Your bagels ain't dense enough, either. They taste lovely, but they ain't bagels, they're cake.

The late XV105
18th Aug 2010, 04:20
Whenever I visit a fast food outlet - not often, but it happens sometimes! - I set myself the challenge of ordering what I want leaving no room for questions from staff.

Jeez it's hard. Even if you get it off pat (and I don't mean "from Patrick" :) ) the staff seem to be so brainwashed that they still ask a question even though you've already given the answer!

Richo77
18th Aug 2010, 04:29
The old boot was being a pain in the arse, plain and simple. When i go to my local italian pizzeria, i dont order items from the Pizza Hut menu.

The poor little counterpeople (i won't call them baristas as baristas make coffee and thats not something you find in a Starbucks), are trained in a specific manner so as to save time and get through as many customers as they can. They are paid minimum wage and surely not paid enough to think!

Um... lifting...
18th Aug 2010, 04:34
I think Richo has it in one, here. Give that man a short (or long) flat (or not) black (or white), as he chooses.

How to Interpret an Australian Coffee Menu | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/how_2287438_interpret-australian-coffee-menu.html)

Los Angeles, of course, is a world unto itself. Followed the embed instructions explicitly. It worked.

YouTube - LA Story Ordering Coffee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-CrML0BzOA)

z-CrML0BzOA

girl with a stick
18th Aug 2010, 05:22
Here in Sydney, baristas are employed FOR their attitude - surly, efficient and too-cool-for-school types are the face of most cafes here. I refer to it as (BA - barista attitude) as in "that coffee shop has a terrible case of BA"

I'm talking about cafes here, mind, not Starbuckets. For some reason, the chain hasn't really taken off here. I hear they're closing them down....

Um... lifting...
18th Aug 2010, 05:30
Surely, you mean 'inefficient', gwas. A terrible case of BA, one supposes, could also apply to the UK's flag carrier.

Starbucks will try again... it's their business model... divide & conquer through mediocre coffee.

SoulManBand
18th Aug 2010, 06:42
It always amuses me how the 'Mericans like to loudly proclaim to all within earshot how they "can't get a good corfee in this lousy country"

Actually now, thanks to Starbucks, we can.

radeng
18th Aug 2010, 07:03
Lifting,

Not surprised by the Swede drinking Bud. It's not that different to Pripps. The best Swedish beer I've found is Spendrup's 'Old Gold', and that's not particularly good. Down for some of that next week.....

Parapunter
18th Aug 2010, 07:10
Round here Starbucks bought a site & submitted a plannig application for a new store. They were turned down on the basis of council policy which calls for a ban on chains in the area to preserve it's unique character.

They went ahead & opened anyway, were picketed by protesters & were subsequently taken to court by the council - not sure of the outcome, but I know it's still there & locals refuse to use it. I guess it's the same kind of policy Tesco employ, steamrollering their way around. In any event, it was a pyrrhic victory - the place is always empty. Come to think of it, I've never set foot in one in my life. I have been dragged to Costa on occasion & I don't think much of that either - two coffees for a tenner? Fools and their money...

etrang
18th Aug 2010, 07:36
staff seem to be so brainwashed that they still ask a question even though you've already given the answer!

Not brainwashed exactly but deliberately trained. The large chains carefully think up the questions which will generate the most sales and then drill their employees into always asking them.

Go up to the counter in McDonalds and ask them to call an ambulance because your friend is having a heart attack, and the reply will be "Yes, and would you like fries with that?"

sitigeltfel
18th Aug 2010, 08:02
The large chains carefully think up the questions which will generate the most sales and then drill their employees into always asking them. And they employ secret shoppers to test the staff for corporate procedure. The manager gets roasted along with the next batch of coffee beans if there are too many deviations from correct thinking.

B Fraser
18th Aug 2010, 09:32
Bagels are a world child, like pizza.

An inevitability. One of the best bagel houses I have found is in Paddington Sydney. It's a great place for breakfast.

Does anyone know if there is still a huge sign at Chicago O'Hare that proclaims you are now in the world capital of the pizza ? They may serve more than anywhere else but quantity is nothing without quality. Similarly Maine claims to be the lobster capital of the world and should I ever visit, I will be very tempted to ask which one is the king.

The best coffee in the world is Italian, end of discussion. Bar Italia in London is one of life's essential experiences. "Whaddayawant ?"

Parapunter
18th Aug 2010, 09:35
My family is friends with the family that own Bar Italia. My god, a meal round theirs is an experience you don't forget in a hurry.:)

MagnusP
18th Aug 2010, 10:15
Starbucks is fine if the coffee machine in the office goes tango uniform. Tall Americano, and no thanks, I don't need room for milk.

tony draper
18th Aug 2010, 10:29
Nobody speaks of Coffee like this lady.:)


kq6isAf7PPg&feature=fvw

OFSO
18th Aug 2010, 11:42
OFSO, I can not remember a single post of yours that would indicate acute schizophrenia or advanced masochism. In fact, you have always struck me as an eminently sensible chap.So there must exist a logical reason for a sane person to enter a MacDonald´s in Italy.

The truth of the matter is, I can't remember why. Something to do with unrequited love, a fast departure needed from a town near Milano (the one where they hung Mussolini and Clara Petacci upside down, though I wasn't involved in that) - not having long until the Riveriera Express departed from the station heading north; needing a quick meal. Whatever, it provided material for this thread !

Ancient Observer
18th Aug 2010, 11:56
On a trip dunnunder, wife's sister claimed that one of the McDonalds in Canberra served excellent freshly ground, freshly made coffee.

It's not that I didn't believe her, but we didn't try it.

Some time later, loitering between the Central Airport train terminal, and Central on the tube in HKG, we saw a McDonalds which claimed real fresh coffee.
We did actually want a decent coffee, so we went in. The coffee servery was away from the burger servery, and it did serve freshly ground, freshly made coffee that was much much better that Sucksbucks, and nearly as good as Cafe Nero on Kingsway. They can do it...................but probably not in USA/UK............

OFSO
18th Aug 2010, 13:19
yes Ancient', quite true, the McD coffee is excellent here in Spain....but then, they wouldn't stay open long if it wasn't !

Hat, coat, off to the bullfight....oh sh*t, they're banned....just pop the wife's burkha on as a disguise.....flaming' heck, they're banned also.....

tony draper
18th Aug 2010, 13:21
No need to shut those Bullrings,just get the Matadors to fight each other.:)

Storminnorm
18th Aug 2010, 16:00
Used to enjoy watching the bull fighting.
They even had it on the Telly.
Dunno what they're gonna do with all that meat now tho???

con-pilot
18th Aug 2010, 20:54
Some time later, loitering between the Central Airport train terminal, and Central on the tube in HKG, we saw a McDonalds which claimed real fresh coffee.
We did actually want a decent coffee, so we went in. The coffee servery was away from the burger servery, and it did serve freshly ground, freshly made coffee that was much much better that Sucksbucks, and nearly as good as Cafe Nero on Kingsway. They can do it...................but probably not in USA/UK............

As I post earlier in this thread, in blind taste tests MacDonalds coffee beats Starbucks every time.

Now, as for the argument for which country has the best coffee, just remember this; coffee came from the Americas. Coffee purest tell me, as I don’t drink the nasty stuff, that the best coffee in the world can only be found in South America.

I do realize that some here, well one in particular, hates all things American, this post is not directed to him, but to serious folks here that do enjoy a good cup of coffee, no matter whom the vending country/company is.

wings folded
18th Aug 2010, 21:09
Now, as for the argument for which country has the best coffee, just remember this; coffee came from the Americas.


Sure of that, con?

I could be entirely wrong, but I thought it came originally from that part of Africa we know today as Ethiopia

pigboat
18th Aug 2010, 21:14
Kinda hard to beat Blue Mountain Jamaican coffee.

Bruce Wayne
18th Aug 2010, 21:27
greek coffee is the only real deal. unless its coffe you can chew, its all a bit thin !

Tankertrashnav
18th Aug 2010, 22:02
Um Lifting - thanks for the Matzo info - you may be right. I have a ship's biscuit, a family souvenir of the Boer War. Looks suspiciously like that Matzo thingy, and I suspect about as appetising

A properly toasted bagel with smoked salmon is sublime. You can have the schmeer... just leave me the lox.


Not sure about the meaning of "schmeer" but I think youre saying "bagel with smoked salmon please, and hold the bagel"! In which case I concur! The only possible accompaniment for smoked salmon is either scrambled egg or thinly sliced brown bread and butter:ok:

Whirls - I like proper builder's tea as well. Cant stand all this poncy Earl Grey stuff, etc. And as for so-called fruit teas :yuk:

sea oxen
18th Aug 2010, 22:13
German coffee - they know how to roast it, but putting whipped cream on top does not, to my mind, constitute a cappuccino. Moreover, even the best hotels use UHT milk :yuk:

pigboat
I was at Whittard's one day buying this and that and I asked for 1/2 kg of breakfast and 1/2 kg of Blue Mountain. The saleslady asked whether I was certain, and jI said yes. How I chuckled when I realised that the latter had cost me £45. I don't usually quibble but for that much I'd want it shat out of a cat. :)

It is seldom that I agree with Richo but he's right this time - she's a cantankerous old battleaxe. It's all rather Basil Fawlty really.
Eton boy to prostitute: I say, you gave me crabs last week!
Prostitute to Eton boy: Whatidyou expect? Scampi?

Lord help this woman if she ever comes across txtspk or a Facebook tribute page: Rowl i didn no u bt u r in mi hrt 4evaxxxx and so on.

Of course, if she goes completely Radio Rental and begins eviscerating 'rap' and 'hip-hop' 'artists' in a bloodthirsty rage until none is left, I'll give her a great big kiss.

SO

con-pilot
18th Aug 2010, 23:40
I could be entirely wrong, but I thought it came originally from that part of Africa we know today as Ethiopia

I sure thought it was, along with tobacco, potatoes, chocolate, etc.

I'll double check that tonight.

Thanks

Richo77
19th Aug 2010, 01:11
Slight thread drift here, but what is it we don't agree on SeaOxen? Can't recall ever debating anything with you nor do we seem to frequent the same threads often. Just not a fan of my work? (it happens).

TankerTrash i believe the "schmeer" on the bagel is the cream cheese or the like.

con-pilot
19th Aug 2010, 01:45
I could be entirely wrong, but I thought it came originally from that part of Africa we know today as Ethiopia

Okay, I double checked, including the book that I thought I got the right information from and you are correct. The most agreed upon origin of coffee is what is now known as Ethiopia. From there it spread through out the Arab world, then Europe and then the Americas.

However, the folks in South America still claim to grow the best coffee beans in the mountains of South America. Along with some other stuff wot be real illegal*. Of course the coffee I've seen down there, you can stand a spoon up in, it is so thick.




* Hmm, maybe that's why they claim it is the best. :p

OllyBeak
19th Aug 2010, 02:31
for that much I'd want it shat out of a cat.

I knew we'd get around to Kopi Lewak before too long.

Apparently it's the trendy thing now in Septic land. But the 'baristas' there don't wander round the jungle looking for shite, they farm it:

Plucked from civet feces, 'cat poo coffee' is NYC's most expensive at $30 per cup (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/07/27/2010-07-27_this_coffee_smells_like__30_cup_of_joe_comes_from_felines _feces.html)

Matari
19th Aug 2010, 03:52
Apparently it's the trendy thing now in Septic land.

Septics, eh?

Let's see, Kopi Luwak was invented in Sumatra, cultivated throughout Indonesia and SouthEast Asia, exported to Japan, and sold in Australia since at least 2006. Heritage Tea Rooms - Kopi Luwak (http://www.heritagetearooms.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=31)

Um... lifting...
19th Aug 2010, 04:16
The only possible accompaniment for smoked salmon is either scrambled egg or thinly sliced brown bread and butterhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Interestingly, that's precisely how I have it in Ivan-land when I am there (as I am now), and indeed may do so this morning... however, except for the butter, sadly, I have none of the ingredients laid in... off to the shop.
But at home, a bagel. Say what you will of Ivan, but he can make a fine heavy bread and brews a lovely beer.

larssnowpharter
19th Aug 2010, 04:29
just remember this; coffee came from the Americas

Not true!

Coffee originally came from Ethiopia and its use spread to Yemen and through the Arabic world including Italy (South).

Best coffee in the world is Illy drunk in any small regularly used coffee bar in Italy. Take it ''short'' and sip noisily. Drink water after to prevent discolouration of the teeth.

larssnowpharter
19th Aug 2010, 05:59
A reference to the Battle of Vienna, methinks. When one lived near Venice, one was told that the first coffee shop in Europe was in said city. No idea of the truth of this or not but, given Venice's trade with the east, one sees no reason to question the assertion.

Recall reading that a contributing factor to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire was the introduction of more bitter coffee from the Americas and the need to use sugar to sweeten it. Said sugar also being an import from the New World. All money flowing out of the Empire.

Cacophonix
19th Aug 2010, 08:13
(How do you think the ignorant Americans knew we were European? It was your socks & Birkenstocks, friend.)I must say that I have never seen anybody wearing Birkenstocks in the quarter of a century that I have lived in Britain but then again perhaps we just aren't European or because we have our own fine collection of real ales right here on this dank tea cosy strained island! ;)

I am not sure whether or not Prof. Rosenthal drinks beer (she doesn't look a beer drinker, who can tell?) but if she did one can imagine the scenario when she was presented with Budweiser...

Prof - "Illogical, this isn't beer".

Bored salesperson - "You asked for beer ma'am. Budweiser is beer!"

Prof - "No it isn't..."

While this infernal debate went on ad inifinitum one can imagine the rest of the people waiting in the queue suffering their own particular alcoholic withdrawal symptoms. The drinkers of real ales and beers the full blown pink elephant DTs while the Budweisers and Coors wimps a kind of half blown hydrophobia or Water Tremums.

Yes to coffee. Yes to beer in tankards. No to beer tankers.

Here we see the British way of dealing with a group of Birkenstock drinking foreigners... (even if the ad is for a truly appalling beverage).

Now for that first cup of morning tea!

LuIJqF8av6I

tony draper
19th Aug 2010, 08:33
Once had to flee for my life from what passes for a Pub in Milwalkee when one commented aloud on the awfullness of the local Ale,,apparently the natives thereof concider themselves great beer makers and took umbrage,buggrem!one was young and fleet of foot then,'God save the Queen' one shouted back at one's pursuers.
:)

Cacophonix
19th Aug 2010, 08:56
Once had to flee for my life from what passes for a Pub in Milwalkee when one commented aloud on the awfullness of the local Ale,,apparently the natives thereof concider themselves great beer makers and took umbrage,buggrem!one was young and fleet of foot then,'God save the Queen' one shouted back at ones pursuers.Mr Draper your admirable and patriotic beverage guerilla action deep behind bad beer lines in Milwaukee reminded one of this song.

mzhNmhGIfio

Um... lifting...
19th Aug 2010, 09:06
Bored salesperson - "You asked for beer ma'am. Budweiser is beer!"

Prof - "No it isn't..."Aye... neither is Foster's nor Carling's (fabricated ('brewed' would be stretching a point) in Southbank and Burton on Trent respectively, one hastens to point out)... but quite apparently the Brits and Oz mates expect someone to swill it down, elsewise they wouldn't make the stuff unless there's some sort of tax advantage... how soon folk forget their own rubbish and point at that of others... for shame...:=

Cacophonix
19th Aug 2010, 09:17
how soon folk forget their own rubbish and point at that of others... for shame...:=I can't disagree with you Um Lifting. The two beers you mentioned (both brewed here in the UK as you say) are an abomination before God and are hard to forget because of their awfulness!

In fairness to the US, I have drunk many (too many once or twice) fine ales there so as an act of expiation for my beverage based bigotry I post another amusing beer ad for another truly awful beer based around a beer bamboozled American. ;)

G5TWPF76eps

Tankertrashnav
19th Aug 2010, 09:22
Say what you will of Ivan, but he can make a fine heavy bread


Agree with that - lovely. When I was living in Russia the family were always a bit bemused when I chose the very tasty black bread, which still had slight "peasant" associations, to the bog-standard white bread which they also offered, I suspect in my honour. Beer was ok too, but I drank some of the vilest (most vile?) wine on earth while I was there!

Um... lifting...
19th Aug 2010, 10:12
Can't argue with a word of that, ttn... have a colleague here with some knowledge of winemaking (I'm a philistine... but know what I like). The eastern stuff tends to not have the residual sugars filtered out of it (I believe that's what he says) and gives one quite the hangover even after not much more than one glass.
Even my uneducated palate understands why it's vile.
The dark breads are quite nice... with a dab of the local honey or whatever else as accompaniment, lovely. And I also get the odd looks from the locals for preferring the dark & dense breads over the flavorless white.

jumpseater
19th Aug 2010, 10:56
If the old dear had wanted to be spectacularly awkward, she should have complied with the instruction.

"The barista said, 'You're not going to get anything unless you say butter or cheese!' "

js might have said "butter or cheese" :ouch:

She's clearly an amateur at disarming megacorpglobal drones ... Do you know, I don't get many sales calls ... :E

Firestorm
19th Aug 2010, 11:20
A lone voice of dissent here, but I quite like St Arbucks. I quite often drop in for morning communion, and a read of the Telegraph. I like it particularly because if I take my own mug I get a 25p discount on a small (they have a word for it, but I tell them I want the small one) black drip coffee. If they then ask me if I want 'room for milk' I remind them gently that I asked for black coffee. And if you have one of their account cards, and buy a packet of coffee for use at home (which they will grind for you) using the card you will get a mug of filter coffee at no further charge. I think the 'food' is ridiculously over priced even when compared to other over priced places like Marx and Spensives.

That said, MuckDonalds sell quite decent coffee at a fairly reasonable price (unless you buy it at a motorway service station where the economy seems to have a totally different value).

visibility3miles
19th Aug 2010, 15:32
The first time I walked into a Starbucks, the baristas were too engrossed in their own conversation to notice my presence for five or ten minutes. Why I waited that long before walking out is beyond me at present.

Since then, on the rare occasions I pay an exorbitant fee for a cup of coffee, I order a small, medium, or large, and let the server figure out what I'm willing to pay for.

It's a McJob after all. They don't like it any more than I do.

Um... lifting...
19th Aug 2010, 16:51
Once went to local Starbucks with friend. One lives in a small city, so there aren't too many of them. Arrived in his vehicle. As an experiment, dismounted vehicle and headed in to order while he proceeded via the drive-through.

Climbed (clumb?) back in with caffeinated beverage about the time he shouted his order into the tinny speaker/microphone thingie (I'm sure Mr. Draper can explain the technical aspects of said device). This may or may not have been lost on other patrons nearby in the queue.

Curiously... 'venti' they claim means 'twenty', which agrees with my Italian/English dictionary. That would be the size of the 'large'... in good old fashioned ounces... none of that poncy metric rubbish.

wings folded
19th Aug 2010, 19:15
Curiously... 'venti' they claim means 'twenty', which agrees with my Italian/English dictionary. That would be the size of the 'large'... in good old fashioned ounces... none of that poncy metric rubbish.


So why use that poncy Italian language to describe an archaic measure only recognised in a handfull of countries?

Italy "uses poncy metric measures".

flash8
19th Aug 2010, 19:17
I agree with the Prof.

I refuse to learn "Starbucks Language" (same in the Airport as in the City Centre).

I get highly pissed off when all I want is a "Large Black Coffee" to be asked (in Starbucks) you want a "Venti" Sir? (As if I am a complete moron)

And to finish things off they ask "Do you want room for milk?"

On a Black Coffee :confused:

con-pilot
19th Aug 2010, 19:19
Lars

Not true!

Coffee originally came from Ethiopia and its use spread to Yemen and through the Arabic world including Italy (South).


Please read my post #120 in this thread.

Cheers. :ok:

Flash2001
20th Aug 2010, 03:03
Algerian coffee labelled "Cafes Yemen" used to be excellent. Export of more than 500g was forbidden by law as the price was subsidized. If you ever want to start a revolution there, cut off the coffee!

After an excellent landing etc...

larssnowpharter
20th Aug 2010, 06:04
Lars

Quote:
Not true!

Coffee originally came from Ethiopia and its use spread to Yemen and through the Arabic world including Italy (South).
Please read my post #120 in this thread.

Cheers.

Apologies. Either my failure to read in (I normally do) or a failure on part of Pprune.

Still doesn't change the fact that Illy is the best coffee!:E

Rollingthunder
20th Aug 2010, 06:50
yups 20 oz in one cup at 7-11, which is my choice when on the go. And that's a medium. I dispense 1/8 th of a cup in hot chocolate, one French creamer thingie, three full fat cream thingies and fill with dark roast. No need to stir if done that way. $2.23. And it's good coffee!!

sisemen
20th Aug 2010, 06:54
Methinks I'll have to visit a Barsucks and order a coffee in 'real' language. I think it might be the start of a new Olympic sport :}

Torque Tonight
20th Aug 2010, 09:49
Jeez, what's with the militant attitude people! Most baristas couldn't give a monkey's what terminology you use, as long as you can make it clear what you want. Ask for a large black filter coffee to take away, and you'll get it. If you're so ambiguous that the staff don't actually know what you want then things get a little difficult. "I just want a coffee" is really quite a useless request given the number of menu options available. The simplest way to remove any ambiguity is just to pick something from the damn menu and ask for it.:rolleyes:

Most of the staff work bl--dy hard for meagre wages but still pull out the stops for the customers. Every so often there's a deliberately difficult customer who for their own amusement seem to like to waste as much of the staff's time as possible, much like the good professor. You can cut people a bit of slack, make some allowances, but some people just have to be shown the door.

You might also be surprised just how well qualified some of the baristas are. Everyone likes to knock a corporation it seems, but Starbucks didn't grow from a single coffeeshop in Seattle to a global empire by serving bad coffee. Still, if you don't like it, don't go there. Easy.

sisemen
20th Aug 2010, 10:10
http://www.myemoticons.com/images/what-s-hot/popular/caffeine.gif http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumbimg_116/1169929966LlJu3N.jpg

A little too much coffee perhaps TT??

Torque Tonight
20th Aug 2010, 10:48
Yes - busted! A full on coffee addict. After resigning my Queen's Commission as an RAF pilot, I had a short gap before the type rating for my airline job began - so I spent 3 months as a barista. People who just go on the dole because these sort of jobs are beneath them deserve a good slap in my opinion. Hard graft, minimum wage, but a great bunch of colleagues all the coffee I could drink. 99% of the customers were fantastic. 1% were smart-arse troublemakers like the old battleaxe in the article. One thing that impressed me was that SB do actually care about decent coffee. The first part of my training was to go away on a coffee tasting course until I could tell you which part of the world a coffee came from just from a blind tasting. Good times.

Cacophonix
20th Aug 2010, 11:11
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQyzTzeaRYejwrfJ5kzz8RJk9bNPfmOPzvqXCvvyMh 0ZuVx_nw&t=1&usg=__sQvV4Stx-uG9DR2H3BF6C583k7c=

Do you want milk with your implant Sir?

Are the Borg a race of baristas?;)

Torque Tonight
20th Aug 2010, 11:41
Maybe I should've just kicked back and collected dole handouts from your and my taxes.;)

Cacophonix
20th Aug 2010, 12:00
Maybe I should've just kicked back and collected dole handouts from your and my taxes.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif


Torque kudos to you for not doing so and glad you got to follow your chosen career.

Nothing against the hard working people who work in Starbucks etc. but I am on the Prof's side in the sense that we are being fed doublespeak and mumbo jumbo by big faceless and ruthless corporations who want to control our thinking (on both sides of the counter) all in the name of their bottom line. Our language and logic is not dispensable or expendable like their cups, staff etc. Life and even coffee is too important for that.

Cardinal Puff
20th Aug 2010, 14:40
Con, Lars and Flash

Best coffee in Africa comes from Burundi. Used to be fairly cheap at around a dollar a pound when I was there. It's a well kept secret so get there before word gets out.







Oops...!:O

tony draper
20th Aug 2010, 14:45
I believe in the Coffee Houses of Restoration London that most popular beverage was a mixture of coffee and cocoa, yerk!!,one shudders.:uhoh:

Storminnorm
20th Aug 2010, 14:51
Used to like the Kenya coffee, it was quite cheap and the
Memsahib loved it.
Only have 1 coffee per day myself. Much prefer tea.

Blacksheep
20th Aug 2010, 14:56
The Philippino mechanics introduced me to the mix of coffee and cocoa, mixed with milk. Its pretty good drinking on the night shift. I introduced them to thick, dark, sweetened cocoa laced with rum - not recommended for night shift, (unless you've just come off a January morning watch in the Barents Sea) but they agreed that it makes a better combination... ;)

Pugilistic Animus
20th Aug 2010, 18:12
ups 20 oz in one cup at 7-11, which is my choice when on the go. And that's a medium. I dispense 1/8 th of a cup in hot chocolate, one French creamer thingie, three full fat cream thingies and fill with dark roast. No need to stir if done that way. $2.23. And it's good coffee!!That's the way to do it, I hate watching people stir coffee...I put a measure of sugar at the bottom cover it with some coffee swirl, add the half and half, then fill it up with coffe with continuous swirling [like a titration if you know what that is] perfect mixing, flavor and no unsanitary stirrers---Starbucks does not allow that option and you spend nine hours opening those little packages and playing with a wooden stirrer---- too long

here's a reference for the method. by von Animus


Novel Method of turbulent mixing of a three component hot-caffeinated-beverage system without the use of external agitator


:}:}:}

con-pilot
20th Aug 2010, 18:19
Sadly don't ask me what the best coffee is, I can't stand the stuff.

But funny enough, I love the smell of fresh roasted coffee beans.

Go figure.

Headstone
20th Aug 2010, 18:57
Haven’t read all this thread so hope this hasn’t been done already. A while back the BBC had a series called Grumpy Old Men and that singer chap Bob Geldof went on a rant about globalisation whereby Starbucks and other large corporations were taking over the world and making everything the same. He carried on by saying that you are just buying a cup of coffee and the fact that they have served you a Ciabatta instead of a sandwich or Bruschetta Pomodoro instead of tomatoes on toast does not make you a sophisticated world traveller nor has it lifted your lifestyle to a whole new level.
However he then went on to say that people who grew up in the UK during the 50s and 60s know that the Starbucks kind of plain simple coffee, not the fancy stuff, is basically very, very good. We can all remember back then going into English cafes, asking for a coffee and getting a spoonful of truly awful instant brown dust out of a large tin at the back of the counter and having it served in one of those ridiculous little glass cup and saucers. You could get a decent cup of coffee if you knew of an Italian enclave in the town. Luckily near my home town was a camp for Italian POWs and some of them stayed behind, married English lasses and set up wonderful restaurants which of course served marvellous coffee as well as good food. In a town you did not know well though you had the awful instant muck thrown at you – and don’t get me started on the old British Rail coffee.

Flying Lawyer
20th Aug 2010, 19:30
I'm with TT and Firestorm.

I like Starbucks coffee. Expensive, yes, but so are all the coffee shops in London.
I've rarely had a problem with a baristas. The staff at my local branch are unfailingly friendly, polite and efficient, and certainly not fools.
Most of them are doing the job to finance their further education or to live in London during a gap year. One, a law student from Spain, spent a couple of days in court with me to experience an English court. A very bright girl who, I have no doubt, will be a good lawyer.

Ordering is simple.
The usual?
Yes please.
The 'usual' is a Venti wet latte. I tried a 'Why bother?' for a few weeks but decided it wasn't worth bothering.

NamibFox big faceless and ruthless corporations who want to control our thinking
I hadn't seen it that way before but you could be right. When I buy a coffee from Starbucks I say 'wet' rather then 'no foam/no froth'. Worrying. :(


.

Pugilistic Animus
20th Aug 2010, 19:40
here's me at a recent event
YouTube - Would You Please Pass the Jelly?! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xBydH93eDY)

:}

SoulManBand
20th Aug 2010, 19:48
I am with TT as well. Great people, always willing to help and be nice. The problem is the idiots like the woman in the article. If you have one person in front of you you've had enough time to figure out what you want and what size. If you don't know (or refuse) to use their terminology just point to the cup near the cash register.

For me it is "tall, bold, Grande cup". I top it off with skim milk. I have 2 or 3 of those a day, that's 32-48oz per day.

My name is SoulManBand and I am a Starbucks addict...

Cacophonix
20th Aug 2010, 20:15
My name is SoulManBand and I am a Starbucks addict...

SoulMan you are welcome here. We look forward to hearing about the ground depravity later. In the meanwhile, Mavis could you bring SoulMan a cup of tea? :ok:

SoulManBand
20th Aug 2010, 20:36
Sorry, I don't do tea, NF. If I wanted tea I could just add hot water to what's left in the last 1/4" of my coffee. Same taste.

tony draper
20th Aug 2010, 20:47
How come there is no ancient Japanese Coffee Ceremony then?
Coffee!!a dammed upstart beverage that hasn't been around long enough to merit a ceremony.
:rolleyes:

Parapunter
20th Aug 2010, 20:54
Beverage is a despicable word. Drink is what a beverage is. As far as I am concerned, Beverage was a Welsh politician, fixated with hospitals.

Tankertrashnav
20th Aug 2010, 21:02
Sorry, I don't do tea, NF. If I wanted tea I could just add hot water to what's left in the last 1/4" of my coffee. Same taste.


Yup, I completely agree SoulMan. Having once been so unwise as to order tea in the US I can concur that's exactly what it tasted like :yuk:

tony draper
20th Aug 2010, 21:03
There is a certain very posh tea out at the moment that if one obtains the one tin with a golden ticket within one wins a flight in a Spitfire, but I int about to tell you lot what it is and where it is to be had and lower my chances am I.
:rolleyes:
Why have American tea bags got bits of string hanging off em like a dammed tampon? did we not send you some spoons across on the Mayflower?
:)

Um... lifting...
21st Aug 2010, 04:28
The tea bag has long been misunderstood...

UK Tea Council - The History of the Tea Bag (http://www.tea.co.uk/the-history-of-the-tea-bag)

I expected better from you, at least, Mr. Draper.

That would be Wonka's tea, one expects. Nay, a droll joke...

Stock up, Mr. D...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/147519108.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1282362388&Signature=1GP45ZIF26uu9uidjwZqZGSGrzA%3D

Whirlygig
21st Aug 2010, 08:08
Herr Draper ... would that be your local tea merchant, Ringtons? :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

Um... lifting...
21st Aug 2010, 08:23
Herr Draper ... would that be your local tea merchant, Ringtons?

Mods (or it was automatically done) deleted image of a tin of aforementioned tea. Suffice it to say it's named after the organization that used to operate the Spitty in large numbers in hostile environs.

tony draper
21st Aug 2010, 08:57
Ah well,as the cat is now out of the bag as it were.:)
RAF tea in all its splendour on Twitpic (http://twitpic.com/2ftuh0)

Um... lifting...
21st Aug 2010, 09:07
Off goes Mr. Draper...

YouTube - Ive Got A Golden Ticket (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29_uSlEEPSk)

radeng
21st Aug 2010, 09:25
Wasn't RAF tea supposed to be laced with bromide to suppress the urges of the licentious airmen?

tony draper
21st Aug 2010, 09:28
At my age one needs no chemical help in that direction.:uhoh:
Rather have a roast beef and yorky dinner.:)

Tankertrashnav
21st Aug 2010, 09:51
A word of caution to would be Spitfire flight winners (in the unlikely event that the Golden Ticket isn't a spoof). I once went into this when I was spending a mythical lottery win. Apparently there is an absolute upper weight limit, fully clothed, of something like 175lbs, because of critical c of g considerations in the 2 seat Spit. One pound over and you can forget it! Short of amputating a leg or two I realised I had no chance, and I suspect one or two on here would struggle to make the weight as well!

Juud
21st Aug 2010, 10:48
Trashnav, despite his calorific eating habits & concrete lined stomach, Admiral Draper still possesses the sylph-like figure of his younger days.

He´d fit a Spit.

Keef
21st Aug 2010, 10:54
Beverage is a despicable word. Drink is what a beverage is. As far as I am concerned, Beverage was a Welsh politician, fixated with hospitals.

Nah, a Beverage (named after its inventer) is a specialised type or receiving aerial, very directional, which works on the difference in speed of radio waves through the air and over the ground.

G-CPTN
21st Aug 2010, 11:21
Mebbe TD would be too tall?

I believe the environs of a Spit are somewhat cramped.

tony draper
21st Aug 2010, 11:35
No probs there,one may even have to sit on a cushion to see out the porthole.
:uhoh: