Jet aircrafts reversing by own its own power

[tankahn]

My friend was chatting with some SIA pilots recently as he ask them about jet aircrafts reversing by its own power while on ground. An old sailor, he saw it done in Koh Samui, Thailand and even asked the co-pilot about it then. The SQ pilots (one who happens also to be a flight instructor) says its impossible. I am in the middle since there is such a thing call "thrusts reversal" but deliberately doing it instead of using a tow tug looks dangerous and costly for jet engines engines. Hope this forum can shed some light.

[Skipness One Echo]

It can be done on an empty aircraft or a lightly loaded one but as soon as you try to stop by tapping the brakes going back the way, there's a good chance you can put the aircraft onto it's tail. Ooops!

[forget]

It can be done on an empty aircraft or a lightly loaded

And full ones. It was used routinely in the US by DC9s, 727s, high engined aircraft.

[Avman]

It was used routinely in the US by DC9s, 727s, high engined aircraft.

I can confirm having experienced this several times in the U.S. on B727 equipment, although I have to say that on all occasions we were not anywhere near a full load.

[tb10er]

I seem to recall seeing B737s doing this at New Orleans in the late 80s.

They were doing it from the stand before taxying.

[Groundloop]

Many years ago was on an Air Canada 727 at Toronto which pushed back from the gate this way. Noisy if you're sitting near the back of the cabin!

Video of Northwest DC-9 on YouTube here:-

YouTube - DC9 PUSH BACK WITH REVERSERS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID3jfc39x3E)


Probably lots more as well if you search!

[treadigraph]

I seem to recall an Aeroflot IL-62 reversing off stand at Heathrow once, and various C-130s and a C-17 demonstrating reverse gear at airshows. The C-17 was at Farnborough and did dab the brakes a bit forcefully - yep, nosewheel lifted off!

[Geezers of Nazareth]

I seem to recall an Aeroflot IL-62 reversing off stand at Heathrow once, and various C-130s and a C-17 demonstrating reverse gear at airshows. The C-17 was at Farnborough and did dab the brakes a bit forcefully - yep, nosewheel lifted off!

... but that's it's show-piece! Every C-17 that I seen doing a show-routine always includes that. Somewhere I've got a photo of it with the nosewheel off the ground.

Although not a jet, I'm sure Loganair at one point did powerbacks with the Twin Otter.

Relatively easy and straight-forward ('straight-backwards!') on a prop aircraft. I can remember seeing Vanguards (and Merchantmen) doing at Heathrow in the early 70s.

[22/04]

"Power back" standard practice on Northwest DC 9s at Minneapolis/StPaul; very noisy and a chap at the front rotated a pair of sticks for guidance

Hercules on military ops do it

And last summer Loganair Twin Otters at Glasgow.

[tankahn]

Thanks for the video. Settles the question for me. Thanks all for the illuminating thread.

[arem]

Had to do it a couple of times in a 707 at POS - failed to make the 180 on the runway after landing, so a 3 point turn was called for.

Seem to remember doing it once on base training at PIK on a 747-100 as well - great fun and remember to keep the feet off the brakes!!

[Cymmon]

DHC-7 dash-7 can do it easily.

YouTube - Wideroe demonstrating STOL and slow flight at Sola, Norway. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezjfU4KtZtc)

Been on Antonov 24´s that employed it regularly. Alma Ata, Tashkent, Dushanbe and Urgench.
The Il-62 at London Heathrow was (I believe) due to a strike at the airport, the Russian captain wanted back to his motherland.

[Groundloop]

Although not a jet, I'm sure Loganair at one point did powerbacks with the Twin Otter.

Don't Flybe currently do it with Q400s? I'm sure I've seen them doing it at SOU.

[FL370 Officeboy]

Don't Flybe currently do it with Q400s? I'm sure I've seen them doing it at SOU.

Nope...Q400s don't use reverse on the landing roll never mind the pushback! I can assure you that you didn't see a Q400 'powerback'.

As already stated, in the US it was a common sight with DC9s and MD80s.

[Curious Pax]

The Il-62 at London Heathrow was (I believe) due to a strike at the airport, the Russian captain wanted back to his motherland.

Pretty sure that it was in the aftermath of the shooting down of the Korean 747 - the ground handlers refused to deal with Aeroflot, so this was the only way they could leave.

[JEM60]

Regular sight on BINTER ATR42 and 72s in the Canaries.

[Avman]

Reminds me, I once saw a Vanguard doing it at Brum. Kind of a 3 point turn due to some works on the apron (ramp for US readers).

[AerocatS2A]

DHC8 100, 200, 300 can all power back. Keep your feet on the floor and your hand off the tiller! When it's time to stop use power rather than brakes.

[holyflyer]

I seem to recall an Aeroflot IL-62 reversing off stand at Heathrow once

It happened during some cold war diplomatic spat (not sure it was the Korean 747 incident) but was shown on TV. Have a vague recollection of people on board not being able to leave the aircraft (Soviet territory etc). The IL62 had not been refuelled and only just had enough fuel to get to AMS. The version I was told was that it departed without a flight plan and limited contact with ATC - always doubted that was wholly true. It had been parked on the old Terminal Two remote stands so it backed out straight onto a taxiway running parallel to 23/05.

Regularly experienced reverse out of gates on Northwest DC9 and 727's at MSP during the late 80's and early 90's.

[Truck2005]

Used to be a regular thing on the lower numbers bays at Lyneham with the aircraft parked nose in for loading. You either were a clued up marshaller and stood out at the lefthand wing or a stupid one and stand on top of the revetment to marshall. Many a blokes feet seem disappearing over the back!!!!

[superspotter]

I remember watching the Guppy do it regularly at Manchester airport.

[dixi188]

I remember an early problem with the BAC 1-11. (My father was a service rep.)

Mohawk airlines in the USA were finding some cracks around the tail of their -200 srs. aircraft and BAC sent someone to investigate.

He was horrified to see these aircraft using reverse thrust to back out from the gate. The 1-11 is a very strong airframe but it was not designed for this.

[bobward]

I've seen FlyBe's Dash 8's push-back at Norwich everal times.
I've also seen Eastern's Jetstreams do the same at Aberdeen as well.
:)

[WindSheer]

You will never see a/c with quite a 'critical' balance reverse. eg the A320
The braking action required to stop it from reversing could be enough to tip it onto its tail.

[Groundloop]

You will never see a/c with quite a 'critical' balance reverse. eg the A320

You would probably never see a jet aircraft with engines suspended below the wings (except a high wing military transport like the C-17) doing this. Too much danger of debris being blown up and being ingested into the front of the engine (although the Air Florida crew of the 737 that crashed in the Potomac did just this and this is one of the possible causes of engine sensors becoming blocked and giving false reading on take-off).

Only ever seen it done on rear-engine jets like 727, DC-9, MD-80 etc.

[FL370 Officeboy]

Beg to differ!
I've seen FlyBe's Dash 8's push-back at Norwich everal times.
I've also seen Eastern's Jetstreams do the same at Aberdeen as well.

No, really, you haven't. Flybe Dash 8s do not power back from stand EVER. It is strictly forbidden in the B4 (Q400 Ops Manual). So, unless the crew were operating in violation of the company operations manual then I think you must be mistaken.

[PaulW]

Eastern Airways Jetstream 41s powerback every turnaround from Aberdeen, and the Saab 2000 will powerback occasionally on charter for manouvreing i.e. parallel parking in LeMans at the 24hr race weekend when the airfield is very congested. The Saab is not allowed by the airport authority at Aberdeen to powerback from Terminal stands because of the significant prop wash which gives a significant risk of FOD damage to the terminals glass windows, but has done so from remote stands. Although Saab crews dont routinely powerback they have to demonstrate a powerback every sim check.

To all those that say you cant powerback because the aircraft will tip up if you apply the brakes. Correct, thats why you dont apply the brakes, merely moving out of reverse and back into ground idle or a slight amount of forward thrust is enough to stop the aircraft.

[con-pilot]

It was very common for us to use reverse thrust to back up our 727s, lightly loaded or heavy. Main thing to remember was to not use the brakes to stop.

Well, one could use the brakes, but you would not like the results. :ooh:

When heavy I would release the parking brake, add just enough foward thrust to roll foward a small distance, then go to reverse thrust and back up. By going forward a few feet, it did not require as much reverse thrust to break free.

[bvcu]

Saw Eastern Airlines doing it in Orlando the summer before they went out of business [ 1990 ?] to save the cost of a pushback . Types were 727, 757 and DC9 . A300 had a tug !

[AerocatS2A]

You will never see a/c with quite a 'critical' balance reverse. eg the A320
The braking action required to stop it from reversing could be enough to tip it onto its tail.
That's easily fixed, you don't use brakes when reversing! Reverse slowly keep your feet away from the brakes and use POWER to stop. (I'm not suggesting you should do this in an A320, but the effect of braking on a reversing aircraft is a red herring, you don't use the brakes.)

[PaperTiger]

Too much danger of debris being blown up and being ingested into the front of the engine (although the Air Florida crew of the 737 that crashed in the Potomac did just this and this is one of the possible causes of engine sensors becoming blocked and giving false reading on take-off).Palm 90 attempted a powerback but the airplane never moved, just blew up snow and ice all over the engines, wings etc.. Only when the tug was fittled with ti(y)re chains did they get off the gate.

Swiss cheese indeed :sad: .

[Runaround Valve]

T`was on a B707 one night in 1972 at Teheran. The Concorde was also there that night. Was sitting up front in First Class on the right and as we started to leave there was a few agitated waving people on the ground.
Another aircraft arrived after us and we were blocked on the right.
Reverse thrust was used to go backwards so that we could turn and then get clear.

[L4key]

YouTube - Boeing C-17 Globemaster III Aerobatics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK2lQfPqcPI)

About 6.50 for the reversing. Awesome display though anyway, got it from the thread in Mil. Aircrew talking about the sad loss of a C17 recently.

[dubh12000]

I remember an early problem with the BAC 1-11. (My father was a service rep.)

Mohawk airlines in the USA were finding some cracks around the tail of their -200 srs. aircraft and BAC sent someone to investigate.

He was horrified to see these aircraft using reverse thrust to back out from the gate. The 1-11 is a very strong airframe but it was not designed for this.

A Ryanair 1-11 backed itself out of the gravel at the end of the runway in Cork many years ago, pre takeoff.......I forget the exact story but I think the story was that the FD were not paying a lot of attention :}

[con-pilot]

Well once I started backing up with reverse thrust and didn’t want to.

I had ferried an ex-FAA Sabre 80 to an overhaul facility in St. Louis. Now this Sabre had been sitting with little or no maintenance, huh make that no maintenance, for over a year. Just getting ready the aircraft ready to fly was a bit of a chore. But after a lot of cursing and great amounts of banging around on the aircraft by some maintenance personnel the aircraft was declared fit for the hour and half ferry flight.

Just as I was getting into the aircraft the lead mechanic (engineer) came up to me and said, “I’d think twice about using the reversers on landing sir.” I inquired as to if the reversers were functional and he replied that yes, as far as he was concerned they were, but……

However, being an iron jawed, steel eyed and brain dead aviator, I promptly forgot all about the reversers. My co-pilot and I got into the cockpit, started the engines and taxied out. I’ll admit that as we taxied out and I noticed that the mechanics (engineers) appeared to be crossing their chest with their right hands, as if blessing us, did make me slightly concerned.

Never the less the flight was more or less uneventful, well except for the number two engine fire warning that kept going off, that was annoying to say the least, and that only one radio seemed to be working, we were soon landing at St. Louis.

I made my usual flawless landing and promptly grabbed the piggy back thrust reversers handles in front of the throttles, as I pulled them up to the full reverse position, the words about thinking twice about using them flashed through my mind, but too late now.

As expected and as designed both reversers deployed and shortly after that, both engines were developing full reverse power. As we were slowing through 80 kts I started to apply forward pressure on the piggy back reversers handles as to slowly reduce reverse thrust and stow the reversers.

Well, I tried to do that, unfortunately and neither as expected nor as designed, nothing happened. The reverser handles would not budge. By this point we were passing through 60 kts, still in full reverse thrust, this is not necessarily a good situation to be in, take my word for it.

My con-pilot looked at me as if to say, ‘okay, what the hell did you break now?’ I told him to try to stow the reversers. He tried, tried and tried again, no luck. Now we were at a dead stop on the runway, in full reverse thrust, standing on the brakes to keep the aircraft shooting backwards back down the runway. Needless to say, it felt like the aircraft was trying to shake itself apart, the instrument panel was vibrating so badly we could hardly read the instruments. Now if things were not bad enough, the control tower decides to become involved at this time.

ATC; “NXXXX take the next the exit to the right and contact ground point 9.”

Poor little ol’ us; “Huh, we can’t.”

While I consider the US ATC controllers some of the best in the world, sometimes they don’t listen. ATC; “NXXXX expedite to the next exit, traffic short final.”

Us again; “Unable, we’re stuck, we can’t move.” Okay, okay, technically we could have moved, but only backwards, which I didn’t believe would have helped the situation.

ATC; “TWA 123 heavy go around, disabled aircraft on the runway. TWA 456 follow the company heavy in front of you, American 789 cancel approach clearance, maintain current altitude, contact approach on 119.7”

TWA 123 heavy: “Roger, going around.” And the other airliners all responded in kind.

ATC; “NXXXX, you’re stuck?”

Exercising some of that command pilot stuff I’d been vested with, I took over the radio, the only one we had left, remember. “Err, yes sir, it seems that the engines are jammed in full reverse thrust and we have no control over the engines.”

About that time a TWA 747 roared over us and personally I believe that it was a lot lower than needed be, in fact my buddy in the right seat next to me swore that he saw the fist of the captain of the 747 shaking at us.

ATC; “Roger, understand, what are your intentions?”

Hell I didn’t know, sit here until we run out of fuel? Set the parking brake and then we’ll jump out of the aircraft, run away and hide in the closest bar?

Me; “We’re working on the problem.”

ATC; NXXXX, again, what are your intentions?”

Oh great, our last radio just went out, probably committed suicide. About this time my buddy in the right seat says “huh-oh’ and points out of the side windshield and I see about a dozen very large fire trucks racing down a taxiway towards us. ‘Great’ I think, I can just see us completely covered in a mountain of foam, sprayed on us in an attempt to snuff out the engines with only the tail of the aircraft sticking out of this foam mountain with a little red rotating beacon going around marking where we are.

About then the number two, or right engine, fire warning system came on again. Suddenly I had an idea, the first good idea since I had agreed to make this flight.

“The engine fire/shut off handles” I yelled at my buddy, “pull the fire handles, that will shut off the fuel to the engines.”

My buddy looks at me and says, “Just what makes you think they will work, nothing else in this thing has worked right.”

“Just pull them.”

He pulled and by God it worked, both engines shut down. Now, I had been taught since I first flew an aircraft equipped with fire/shut off handles to never, never ever, pull the handles if the engine was running, especially if the engine is running at full power. This act would in all likelihood cause major damage to the engine, I didn’t care, it worked.

The only saving grace about this whole incident, well to us anyway, was that the aircraft was still painted in FAA color scheme. That night we sitting in the hotel bar talking to a couple of American Airline pilots. One of them looked at me and said;

“Hey, you hear about the FAA Sabre closing down one of the runways today because the engines were stuck in reverse?”

Me, “Yeah, what a couple of dummies. Say, you been to St. Maarten Island lately?”

[chiglet]

I watched a DC8-60 series power back off r/w28/10 at Manch some years back...I think that had a low wing with podded engines....:ok:

[NutLoose]

RAF VC10's used to do it, especially in places like Deci, though it could cause probs with gas and crap reingestion..

[NWA SLF]

Power backs were very common in the US midwest back in the late 70's, 80's. I was living in Kansas City so it would have been on Northwest, Republic, Ozark, Delta, and Braniff - all flying DC-9s or 727s. Not sure if all of them did it but the practice was very common.

[Glamdring]

Powerbacks are standard practice for Eastflight Jetstreams at Aberdeen. Never seen a jet do one though.

[Tu.114]

@FL370, it seems like FlyBE applies rather stringent limitations there. At Tyrolean, powerbacks are approved both for the -300 and the -400 series DHC8, although they are pretty rare. Of course, several limitations apply for their use.