15-yr old solo starting+taxying?

[FOUR REDS]

My student will be 16 in May next year. He is at solo standard, but of course he has to wait.

What are your views on legal / insurance implications if I let him start and taxy / run-up on his own?

Thanks for solving my dilemma, I hope.:hmm:

[FlyingStone]

First you have to ask yourself: what would he gain from this? Confidence in doing startups, taxiing and run-ups? I don't think that is neccessary, while you are on the ground, you can do everything as slow as you want and therefore reducing the workload. The most difficult part during solo is first takeoff (and initial climb with extreme performance - at least on most 2-seat spamcans) and landing, when you know you have to do it and no one is there to help you.

I don't even see any gain from staring powered flying at the age of 14 or 15, but that's just me...

[FOUR REDS]

Thanks for your reply.

I share most of your sentiments, but indeed there are some 'outside' factors, such as that matter of confidence, the time constraints of an hour's flight in a 1.5 hrs slot incl pre- and post-flight briefs etc, my last-minute coffee swig or toilet-stop or the guy who needs to pay a landing fee.

Sometimes we let students do their thing to expedite the show......, hence the request for info on legality and/or insurance issues.

:\:\:\:\

[bingofuel]

Four Reds - I don't think time constraints are an 'outside factor' they are created internally.

If you are having to fit an hours flight into a 90 minute time slot, then I think your school/club/management need to look at what they are doing and consider 'value for money' for the customer.

In my opinion there is no way an instructor can properly meet,. brief, do the paperwork, preflight, fly for an hour, shut down, debrief, pause for breath and be ready to fly again in 90 minutes. I am not blaming you, but the people that run these operations for short changing the customer.

Yes, I know bills must be paid etc etc but at what cost to the end product. I cringe when I see instructors step out of one aeroplane and step into another, engine running and start a new lesson with another student. What are they doing? briefing as they taxi to the hold?

Sometimes we let students do their thing to expedite the show

Who is in charge of whom?

[mad_jock]

Personally I wouldn't.

I know where your coming from. Switched on 15 year old, nice kid, mature and sensible. "Bloggs could you go pre flight and take the tommy round from the hanger to the bowser, fuel it to tabs, I will see you out the front" with the full knowledge they will love the fact you have given them the job to do that they are more than capable of doing. Little do they know that the main objective is that you want 10 mins of peace to have a dump.

But they can't be PIC of an aircraft until over 16. If god forbid anything did happen you have given the legal types a right money making oppertunity. It really is just not worth it.

[FOUR REDS]

Thanks sofar for your input.

Mad Jock, You got it in one. I'll take your advice.
I always listened to you when you were my LTC. (assuming you're The Jock!)

[DFC]

But they can't be PIC of an aircraft until over 16. If god forbid anything did happen you have given the legal types a right money making oppertunity.


This has nothing to do with being PIC. Many engineers can be found taxiing aircraft every day of the week and they have never had any PPL lessons.

There is no intention of (legal) flight while a sub 16 year old is the only occupant. Therefore as every instructor should know - it is not flight time and also any accident that occurs is not a reportable accident.

In this regard generally you have to look at three important things;

1. The insurance situation

2. What the aircraft operator / owner permits

3. That it has been certified that the person who is going to taxi the aircraft has been trained and checked in all the required areas that should be in the operators sylabus for such situations eg engineers who don't have a licence.

My stance reflects a background in farming where it is common for children quite young to be very skilled at driving tractors but not on the public highway. This area of operation does have quite a high number of accidents involving children and machinery.

Therefore unless you have a private field with no other traffic and your organisation and insurance company are willing to take the risk, I would not recomend that it is allowed.

---------

Four Reds,

I can only presume that this student has completed every part of the PPL sylabus except the solos. If not then why not move along and progress with the dual training and ensure that you pace it so that they keep some currency while progressing and can go solo next May. They could then do their hour building (if heading for commercial) or some other suitable flying until they get their licence 1 year later.

Personally I tell parents that starting training before they are 16 is a waste of money.

[mad_jock]

Unless you have done some LT in a BAe heap in the last 2 years I suspect it wasn't myself.

Its all about the frame work you are operating in and documenting what you have done and having the documentation which expressely allows you to release the student for solo taxing and preferably the documentation signed off by an ops inspector.

I doud't if any flying school will have this (you could trying putting it in). So if anything goes wrong it will be laid firmly at your feet.

To be honest though in the UK teaching sub 18 year olds is now a thing of the past for me. Enjoyable though it was, that last arse covering letter by the CAA means I won't be doing it again in the UK. Tis a shame.

But as always check with your insurance company they might have some views on it although I suspect they will be ok with it.

Also another regulation you might have an issue with is the dispensing of hydrocarbons to under 16's. In theory there is a minimum age which a person has to be, to be in charge of refueling be it boat, car or plane I presume. It's been 15 years since I did my HAZMAT course on the lorry's so I can't remember the full details.

[Artificial Horizon]

When I was instructing it was common practice to allow the students to go and pre-flight and start before I would go out to the aircraft. They didn't have to taxi anywhere though. I don't see any harm in doing this if it is a must.

[Cows getting bigger]

Picking up on 60 mins in an 90 min slot, why be focussed on 60 minutes? I personally find that 60 mins can be too long for a student pilot.

Everything else - wot Mad Jock said. :)

[DFC]

I don't see any harm in doing this if it is a must.


Why is it a must?

Is it a must that corners are cut and perhaps safety comprimised as a result.

If we were talking about an adult then I would have some belief in the posibility that they were trained, had demonstrated the required standard and as an adult can take responsibility for their own actions.

When it comes to a 15 year old child, I am never going to let them be in charge (sole occupant ) of an aircraft with engines running.

Everyone who can fulfill their obligations as PIC wile not being in an aircraft can sit sipping coffee while the child copes with an engine fire on start.

Remember that when you send a 16 year old solo they are PIC and they alone are responsible for the safety of the aircraft and the Law says that at 16 years old they can be charged with that responsibility. provided that the instructor has completed their duties correctly they have no responsibility at all for any omission or failure on the 16 year old's part that cuases loss or injury.

However, when you fail to fulfill your responsibilities as PIC and the 16 year old child who is not PIC has an accident then you are 100% liable for your failure to act in the manner expected of the PIC i.e. be in the cockpit.

I would also hope that your school has a very clear policy in place for "running change-over" and hopefully will not permit it at all.

Lastly, there is nothing wrong with you doing the A check. Doing a post flight inspection and then asking the next student to pre-flight, strap in and complete the checks up to but not including starting the engine. That can save time and ensure that you are present in the aircraft before the engine is started even if it is just 1 second - that 1 second can allow you to use your experiecne to ensure that for example the brakes are on and the throttle is not 100% open.

I think that based on the original person's statements, the child starting the aircraft unsupervised and the PIC not being in their require position would give an insurance company a easy get-out and an angry parent / guardian a good case of negligence - against the school if it is official school policy or against the instructor if it is not (which I hope is the case).

Simple policy - don't let children use dangerous machinery unsupervised unless the law say that they can.

[BEagle]

...that last arse covering letter by the CAA...

I do like your turn of phrase, mad_jock. And how true....

[bfisk]

What you have to ask yourself is how do you, in front of a jury, defend your decision to let said 15-year-old operate the aircraft alone, after he decaptitated someone/entered an active runway/wingclipped another plane/decided to go for a solo flight after all/etc/etc/etc?





This one is easy. :=