Miles Above in Unsafe Hands [Archive]

jimmygill

14th Aug 2010, 12:21

Miles Above in Unsafe Hands
Miles above in unsafe hands - Economy and Politics - livemint.com (http://www.livemint.com/2010/08/11213359/Miles-above-in-unsafe-hands.html)

Take for instance New Delhi-based Garima Passi, 21, who went to a pilot training institute called Sabena Flight Academy in Arizona, US, to get her commercial flying licence in 2008.
Passi was expelled after she damaged an aircraft while on a flight and also had a prop strike—an incident in which the propeller of the aircraft hit the runway.

Jim Fendley, a Sabena instructor who flew with her, commented in a 2008 report that Passi was “inconsistent in almost everything” and recommended that she stop training.

“She is not developing flying skills and is afraid she will damage another airplane or hurt herself,” Fendley said in an email to the institute, reviewed by Mint.

Passi joined Sabena through Gurgaon-based United Aviation Consultants Pvt. Ltd. She displayed a “fear of aircraft”, her evaluation report and log book of flying hours show.

“During the evaluation flight, I observed a young pilot who lacks the confidence of a PIC (pilot in command) and a fear of the aircraft,” her second instructor Eliza Wade said in an evaluation report seeking her termination.

At three hearings, Passi defended herself saying, “I am trying” and “I need one more chance” before she was removed from the academy. Passi came back to India and started training in Uttarakhand-based Amber Aviation (India) Pvt. Ltd from where she passed. Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) records show she was granted a commercial pilot’s licence (CPL) within five days of her application on 18 May 2009.
Soon after, she was inducted into low-cost airline SpiceJet Ltd and flies a Boeing 737-800 as a co-pilot. There has been no reported incident involving the pilot during her employment with the airline.

An emailed questionnaire sent to SpiceJet spokeswoman Priti Dey on 21 June did not elicit any response. The airline did not comment despite repeated reminders. The airline’s acting chief executive officer Kishore Gupta said on 27 July that he wasn’t aware of the issue and would revert after inquiring into the matter with a reply by 28 July. He didn’t.

Passi didn’t reply to text messages and calls made to her cellphone. Her father R.S. Passi, director (air safety) at DGCA, said she had to return from the US academy because she hadn’t been keeping good health.

“They said that she had the option to continue in another scheme, but since she was not keeping well, we called her back,” said Passi, who added that his daughter had been selected for the course by Sabena after she went through several tests, including aptitude tests.

He said the pilot wasn’t required to disclose to DGCA the prop strike, which he denied was an accident, while confirming that “something” had taken place. He also denied any conflict of interest in her being employed with SpiceJet, the operations of which he screens in his role with DGCA. and more....

VIDP29

14th Aug 2010, 13:15

Politics , lies , so called contacts , corrupt authorities , greedy airlines , teenagers with pilot licenses --
This is what is left of Indian aviation these days. Corrupt guys get right seat while deserving ones are kicked in the rear.When even an airlines like JET cannot put one line that the resumes for trainee pilots are accepted rather organise a written on the bases of random resumes sent on random dates . There is no reasoning what so ever . Training standards from Canada and Australia are considered same as done from countries like Philippines which deep down we all know stands no chance.

Jimmy i have been following your post and i share your passion and anger towards today's scenario.

TopTup

14th Aug 2010, 15:00

Well written VIDP29.

If what is written is true, then what will happen the instructors and training departments at Spicejet who checked this this young pilot to line? They should have their licenses as instructors removed at the very least.

Do not blame her (the pilot) for the SYSTEM that allowed this to happen. Trust me...she is but one of MANY.

chopchop7

14th Aug 2010, 16:39

The Passis and Spicejet... a case of you scratch my back and I scratch yours; Corruption, pilferage and nepotism have been and continue to be the bane of modern India's culture. You see it wherever you look; aviation, politics or the Games. We need answers to the growing malaise as a country and as a people. Jaago Re... :rolleyes: Passi is just a drop in the ocean...

NGFellow

14th Aug 2010, 23:20

Lets add some more to that.The new Safety Committee appointee, self nominated , so called safety expert and newspaper contributor is another example of a flawed system.

Capt M.R. is no longer an active airline Captain. In fact he was FIRED
by Spicejet after he took off with a fuel imbalance. When he got airborne he mistook this imbalance for a fuel leak and shut down a perfectly good engine. During the review he stated that he was overloaded and stressed out because he had a trainee on board.
And now this guy is a safety man for the DGCA ? He has an axe to grind with Spicejet and has decided to show up for simulator sessions to harass the crew and instructors, and to prove who is "top dog." This is blatant conflict of interest just as is preferential hiring of sons/daughters of DGCA officials.

Someone needs to print this in the paper--It isn't going to be Manju.

ReverseFlight

14th Aug 2010, 23:38

Recently a female student at our FTO was removed from her FI rating course, due to her inability to improve herself during the course. It was probably harsh on her but in the end it was for her own good. I think these things must be spotted early on to stop the rot. She would probably be happier and making more money in a new career.

jimmygill

15th Aug 2010, 00:20

@NGFellow

Glad that you pointed out MR is with DGCA, now it explains exactly how the poor journalist got this kind information about Passi, may be MR has scores to settle with RR Passi, and if am not wrong Garima is not exactly a favored star amongst Spice Crew.

Thanks

silent_scream

15th Aug 2010, 04:31

@TopTup

Do not blame her (the pilot) for the SYSTEM that allowed this to happen. Trust me...she is but one of MANY.

Very true. But it is also worth mentioning that these First Officers are already on their way getting Command on those types. And faster than we can blink, the system is going to be in their hands.

How do I fight them, if I can not even enter the system ?

alphabravocharlie1

15th Aug 2010, 04:49

Very true. But it is also worth mentioning that these First Officers are already on their way getting Command on those types. And faster than we can blink, the system is going to be in their hands.

How do I fight them, if I can not even enter the system ?

well said.

Further, see the following names on the DGCA records :

Self Query (http://fclsdgca.nic.in/dtlquery.aspx)

Aditi H Samant (Daughter of HY Samant CFOI DGCA)
Nandan Sahi (Son of JDG RP Sahi)
Rashmi Sharan (Daughter of A K Sharan, JDG)
Rajiv Pratap Rudy :ok: (BJP Member of Parliament)
Garima Passi !! (For those who were arguing with me regarding Spicejet and hiring practices last year, this GARIMA PASSI along with other politically connected Shahrukhans got hired in the PEAK OF THE RECESSION TIME.. backdoor entry of course :))
... and many more

They have got their CPLs and ratings issued THE VERY SAME DAY or the day after they applied. I guess scrutiny and checks are not really applicable to these so called "VVIP" kids !! :D

alphabravocharlie1

15th Aug 2010, 05:05

There are infact a lot of kids from India who have crashed their training airplanes, done a prop srike, landed on taxiways etc and have NOT reported these incidents/accidents to either the FAA or DGCA etc.

Last heard some members of UPWA (Unemployed Pilots Association) were trying to find out who these kids are and submit their names to DGCA and the airlines.

jimmygill

15th Aug 2010, 07:00

Last heard some members of UPWA (Unemployed Pilots Association) were trying to find out who these kids are and submit their names to DGCA and the airlines.

I understand your technique of fear mongering, but the rumor may have quiet negative effects on the workings of UPWA.

TopTup

15th Aug 2010, 11:58

SilentScream: exactly. Very sad and scary in the extreme isn't it? Yet all too often here the same people chest beat about grandeur and high standards. Why? Because they know no better, refuse to acknowledge that anyone else can or does and are content living a "lucky" (not safe) aviation lifestyle.

And about those kids building toward a command.... They need to get the (pre-approved) Cmdr to sign and stamp each sector of the log book where they flew together and the FO was the PF. Different countries call it P1 U/S, ICUS or Command Practice, etc... This is done to satisfy the ATP hour building requirements. Yet, many unscrupulous and unprofessional Cmdrs sign and stamp anything. Time and time again I saw kids running around with their log books chasing Cmdrs (expats and locals alike) for that stamp and signature, and 90% of the time these guys would do it. So, of the 1500 hrs or so required, I would believe only perhaps a maximum of 1000 hrs ever really may have existed when the FO was PF, let alone ever really making an operational DECISION. And if I were to be realistic, I would state only perhaps 300-500 of those hours would be as PF (P1 U/S, ICUS, Command Practice) due the omniscient arrogance of the Cmdrs to fly ever sector for themselves anyway.

Obviously, for these kids it is a race to get those hours, hence the pressure to lie and cheat that log book at the blessing of the SYSTEM.

No, you can't get into the system. It is protected by egomaniacs defending each and every scam or method of self preservation. The recent AIC 737NG crash bought some of this to light, but that was yesterday's news and appears to be forgotten. Lessons learnt? Never. Scams and corruption exposed? Slightly, but ignored and still flourishing.

So the fate of the traveling public is at ransom to these unmovable and corrupt forces. Again, why you'll never see me or my own on a VT registered aircraft.

drive73

15th Aug 2010, 12:35

I rarely let the fo's land and it isn't because I am a power hungry, hard a#$! I have had to rescue one too many landings and have come to the conclusion, I have everything to lose and nothing to gain from letting them fly. I don't feel a jet full of 180 passengers on board is a good time to be instructing. The bad thing about this system is it hangs the captains out their and makes it very hard for f/o's to get quality time. Until there is a way for pilots in India to gain skills and quality hours before jumping into a jet, or large turbo prop we are stuck with this.

TopTup

15th Aug 2010, 12:59

drive73.... You're right and I apologise for the broad sweeping statement. The SYSTEM has set you up to fail.

FO's need the experience since heaven knows they do not receive it from the training department(s). The ongoing sim training is a farce. The answers to the knowledge tests are all known.... So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

So, what are the likes of you left with? Self preservation by way of career and potential life (extreme case) to give a kid without the minimal flying skills a sector to challenge him/her, let alone nil wind conditions and 4000 m runway. Complain about it? Submit paperwork recommending this/these said FO's go for re-training? Good luck there. You'll more than likely be called in & abused by the heads of training & standards.

I feel sorry for the situation you are in and understand the reasoning. More over, I wish & hope you could get out of it. The most used piece of paper these kids have is their RT license.... and even that should be reviewed since basic RT skills is lost (not just in India).

Jumbo744

15th Aug 2010, 13:09

very good thread, and very scary :eek:

IndAir967

15th Aug 2010, 15:03

@ DRIVE 43 & TOP TUP .. Partly I accept your statement of letting the FOs land but yet again I know every guy out there aint a bad flyer..
There are the good ones out there too and I dont want them to be paying
the price for the not so good ones..

drive73

15th Aug 2010, 15:11

Top,
I don't dislike flying in India, I find 97 percent of the f/o's to be very smart, capable people who will make great captains some day. They usually are very smart and are great support. They lack hands on flying. I wish there was a way they could get this without my liscense, life, and passengers lives on the line. India needs a general aviation environment and until it gets one there will be no way for most Indian pilots to gain experience, except for the right seat of a commercial airline carrying your family and friends. Most airlines in India prevent pilots from thinking beyond SOP's so as long as nothing is way outside the box things work fine. If something real bizarre rises and it falls inside the 3 poor weather months, I might be worried. Fortunatly airplanes today are so reliable and have so much redundency, I wouldn't stop flying Indian airlines yet. I would worry about runway, atc conditions though. All this makes India flying, unlike any other place. I don't have to be here, I actually enjoy it. It keeps me thinking all the time.

TopTup

15th Aug 2010, 15:42

Drive.... If that is the case then I am sincerely happy for you. Job satisfaction counts for a hell of a lot!! But, the fact that you have little to confidence to hand over control, sector for sector in all wx speaks volumes (in my opinion).

And I know there are some truly gifted pilots about (Air) India. But the statistical facts exposed repeatedly on this forum & the media show these professionals to be in the minority.

So if I book a seat on a VT reg aircraft am I more likely to be served by a competent & highly professional crew void of corrupted training & standards, or the opposite; statistically speaking?

I am in communication regularly with 2 "up and comers" from India. Their professional approach to study & their vocation is an inspiration. Sadly these kids will need (& appear to have) the fortitude to rise above the mess.

So no, not all is lost. But the overall scene is by far not anywhere near conducive to being called safe & professional.

aviator_boeing747

16th Aug 2010, 08:15

i just wanted to add to the list.....
 
from DGCA website:
 
Abhishiek Jimmy Massey - (Spicejet)
              &
Jasmine Massey - (Kingfisher)
 
Son and daughter of......
 
Shri VP Massey - Director, Central Examination Organisation, DGCA

masalama

16th Aug 2010, 11:28

Guys
I do not agree with the theory that a son/daughter of a high up govt. official employed with any of the airlines is unsafe just because of who he/she is. We cannot generalize like this and naming them like this without concrete proof of corruption/safety hazards just gives a sense of opportunism by a few.

Should a son/daughter of a DGCA/CAviation head give up flying just to please the others , I say please print the stories you have found regarding corruption practises but naming people and their relatives reeks of a witch-hunt,taliban style judgement...:=:=

jimmygill

16th Aug 2010, 12:30

Of course there are more chances of becoming a president if you are president's son. History proves that.

At the same time, if you had Garima Passi for your friend and you happen to have a medium size car, you will think twice before letting her drive it.

But we don't seem to think the same way when fare paying passengers are flown in a commercial jet.

BTW nobody seems to be proposing the theory you say you don't agree to.

TopTup

16th Aug 2010, 18:03

This naming of names has to stop. I am surprised the moderators have permitted it.

No one here has any right to do so unless this has already been released to the public showing credibility and evidence as to the person's credentials or lack there of. The original post was an excerpt from a published and researched, supported article. To speculate and bring down someone else on an ANONYMOUS forum is cowardly.

Sure, all the "beliefs" seem to point to one direction but unless you have cold, hard FACTS that have already been made public then you have no right to do it here.

And if you feel the need to do so then try to make it some kind of level playing field and allow the world to know who the accusers are. Please release YOUR NAME. To slander someone on a global forum under the guise of anonymity does not wash.

There are few more critical of the Indian Aviation sector than myself, but I have never publicly named names.

And for once I do agree with Jimmygill: if you're the son of, say, a doctor, politician or pilot then you are naturally more exposed to that field, that profession and that environment than most. That will aid you in your preparation, your study techniques, etc. Now, I am am by NO WAY defending or claiming that these mentioned people are innocent but to label them guilty without hard FACTS other than a parental commonality is just not cricket, as you guys will say.

jimmygill

16th Aug 2010, 18:37

HY Samant is CFOI.. Chief Flight Operations Inspector, If I had witnessed Aditi Samant crashing a C-150 and repeatedly failing even FAA writtens, and getting Indian CPL way before me, and getting hired during the downturn of industry. And if I want my license to be secure and I go and report it with my signatures in highlight, I shall not be called brave, I should be called stupid.

Bravery matters when the battle is fair, in an unfair battle tact is more important.

Remember I cannot go back to states and hope for a flying career there instead of here.

Seems you believe the original article was a researched piece and what has been mentioned here by others is worthless, I respect your right to have that belief. At the same time every reader here has a right to bring his/her interpretation and figure out what is truth and what not.

Equating anonymity with cowardice could have been an acceptable idea in middle ages not in 21st century.

TopTup

17th Aug 2010, 07:54

And we disagree (again) then....

To publicly name someone under the cloak of anonymity where there is no onus to provide facts or innocence is cowardly. I DO NOT equate anonymity with cowardice. I equate the use of anonymity to slander anothers' charactor as such.

Who's to say that this anonymity is not used to further a campaign based on other (outside aviation) agendas? A personal dislike or vendetta?

If you cannot back it up, don't stand it up. And if one's integrity is so low as to stoop to accusations behind closed doors then a "professional" career in any industry will not become you.

There are laws protecting "slander" and pprune has in the past walked a fine line and has had legal cases bought against it for this reason.

If you have the desire to bring about FACTS that can be supported then do so. Anger at being unemployed and publicly naming those whom you believe to be not as good as yourself does not justify trying to ruin a person's name and credibility. Sure, the belief suggests a true accusation, but without evidence it is hollow and reeks of "sour grapes."

I respect research, I respect integrity and professionalism. I do not respect gossip and anonymous backstabbing.

(PS: I know of a few GA's operators who hired pilots due to the fact that they had had a wheels up landing, or kept employing a pilot who did the same. The views of these owner/operators was that these guys will never do the same again due that experience.)

weido_salt

18th Aug 2010, 03:04

You lot are barking up the wrong tree!!

The person in question has passed the DGCA medical. That person probably has at least one university degree.

Where do flying skills and competence come into the equation?? As long as they stay miles above my head I will be happy! :)

jimmygill

18th Aug 2010, 03:13

University degrees are dime a dozen in India.

jimmygill

18th Aug 2010, 03:17

So if I book a seat on a VT reg aircraft am I more likely to be served by a competent & highly professional crew void of corrupted training & standards, or the opposite; statistically speaking?

Statistically speaking the answer is Yes. The corrupted one are a significant minority but still less than 50%. But even a minority can impact safety in highly adverse manner.

Besides safety, the concern is also about 'fairness'.

jimmygill

18th Aug 2010, 03:21

If anonymity is not a acceptable in accusing, than whats the moral bases of Litigation in Anonymity accepted in so many countries with a modern judicial system.

aditya104

18th Aug 2010, 05:03

@silent_scream u r already part of the system, believe it or not!
@ReverseFlight the student at your FTO who was removed frm her FI course, was she Indian?

silent_scream

18th Aug 2010, 13:51

@aditya104,

@silent_scream u r already part of the system, believe it or not!I am a part of Indian Aviation System, Yes. But I am not yet a part of the Indian Airline System. And going by the trend, things are but gloomy.

@Toptup,

Every post that you write, there is something I learn from it. I wonder how it would be to fly with you.
But well. Anonymity or Taking names, Our views on this website, or any other, are not going to change a lot of things for the ones being criticized. But when I think about it, there is nothing else I can do. Because If i question the operator, they will repeat the reason you stated
The views of these owner/operators was that these guys will never do the same again due that experienceBut then Again, No persons integrity is worth any less than another.

It is a complicated situation.

scorpilot

18th Aug 2010, 14:40

know a thing or two about indian aviation...faa comm 1996...indian 1997..finally employed 2002..first command 2006...second in 2008..currently on the bus..

prop strike in ab initio trg....landing on a taxiway/wrong runway...failing an faa exam...failing a checkride/recurrent sim...do any of the above mean you are incapable of making it as a pilot..a big NO!

guys all Training caters for "corrective training" which helps trainees/line crew to get upto the standards required by faa/dgca/airlines by imparting extra training flights/sim sessions...at the same time getting your first solo within 6hrs does not make you Top Gun...

yes we are all concerned about safety standards in the aftermath of the mangalore tragedy..but lets not trivialise the issue and take names of sons/daughters of dgca officials...being unemployed for 6 six long frustrating yrs, i share the pain of our out of job cpl holders...all i can say is hang in there..keep trying...aviation offers no shortcuts..you cant fault rahul gandhi for entering politics or abhishek into bollywood...

at the same time..please do not doubt the training standards of airlines or the trainers..we do fail people..not everyone has the same learning curve ...be assured you are SAFE when you fly in a commercial airliner in a VT aircraft (whoever made that comment needs to be.:mad:...)...also a mere atpl does not overnight make you a captain...there are other reqts and a whole lot of training and checks..SAFETY is a big issue and we have come a long way in implementing a lot of safe practices..it will take time...

finally...not every flight is a mission against the Taliban even though some flights are challenging..short fields/critical fields ...
most flights are totally uneventful and very pleasant..yes you do get shaken up once a month..thats when you need to perform and keep your wits about you...I let my 250 hr fo's land under condtions specified in the car and co. sop..most do a fine job..some dont...you correct them or take over (bus drivers need to press and take over!!)...SIMPLE!

casper63

18th Aug 2010, 16:15

Well said, :ok::D

Pulkdahulk

18th Aug 2010, 20:07

TopTup

The article was released on Sunday in the DNA Newspaper 15th August 2010 and the name is clearly written on it of the so called said person who you all are discussing.

And yes the article is very true because am a Flight Instructor and we have been updated about it a few months ago with our FAA Advisory Council.

drive73

19th Aug 2010, 10:49

Top,

You are right, I don't have much confidence in actual flying skills of a great many guys I fly with. Fortunatly they seem to be able to upgrade and have succesful careers, incedent free. I have seen a couple who I wouldn't want my family flying with, but it has been a couple of years and neither has had problems. These were guys who would flare and stop flying, letting the airplane just get blown off the runway. Or flare at 50ft and stop flying. But again no problems in 2 years so I don't know what to make other than the upgrade training must be descent. Whatever is happening they seem to be as safe as anyother country out there. I guess time will tell, but most are very smart and I think this coupled with extensive use and understanding of automation makes them safe.

leftseatview

19th Aug 2010, 15:30

So i guess its true after all..."You can teach a monkey to fly"

Capt Apache

19th Aug 2010, 23:12

I know of a few GA's operators who hired pilots due to the fact that they had had a wheels up landing, or kept employing a pilot who did the same. The views of these owner/operators was that these guys will never do the same again due that experience

Wish the real world was as benign to pilots all the time. But the focus here always seems to be on ' How could he do that ! ' instead of ' How can we prevent it from happening again '. Well said Top (other than your wise moments :)). Scorpilot... Good stuff !

TopTup

21st Aug 2010, 10:22

Silent: If we flew together then I would trust it would be professional and "fun". I would respect you, as I would trust you me as we would both operate as per the SOP's to alleviate the second guessing of each other. And, I will guarantee that sometimes I will, as you may, make some mistakes. I would not abuse you for correcting me, but thank you, and I trust (try always) to set a good cockpit environment for you to question me. No flight is "perfect" in every sense. On landing we'd go to the hotel, meet at the lobby, head out for some beers and some laughs and do it all over again.

drive73: Yes, "automation": the DUMB YET DUTIFUL device we place all out misconceived trust in (Weiner & Nagel, 1988). I agree with you regarding the "statistics" but the REALITY is more of luck than of safety. So, these guys get "lucky" because they stop flying at 50 ft. One day, perhaps, this will all come undone and people will again be wondering..."Who saw this coming!!"

So, a person runs with bulls year in, year out at Pamplona. Never been gored, but a few close calls that were neither reported in the media or to the hospital. Is what this person does or how he/she behaves classed as "safe"? No, it is "risky" and the very least. "LUCKY" at best. And that is the appeal of the event. These adrenalin trips and close calls, or foolhardy ignorance have no place in aviation. Yet the bull runner will be proud of his or her grand achievements...... (And no, I'm not criticising the event at Pamplona as such, just using it as a metaphor for potential misguided bravado or confidence).

Pulkahulk: Yes... It seems one level (GA) of organised aviation can get it right and has the balls to do so yet one responsible for an international carrier with approx 188 lives on board doesn't care about "standards".

Scorpilot: I wrote it. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. Mine, like yours is based on experience, I assume. So, no, I will not fly on a VT registered aircraft based on what I witnessed as a 777 TRE from the "overall" standard of pilot, training system, training departments and management, as well as that corrupted rubbish called the DGCA. Enjoy your lucky flights, as I will enjoy (as pax) a safe crew that I can be much, much, much, MUCH more certain that the pilots up the front were trained to a HIGH standard, there is good CRM and they EARNT their positions, unlike what this ENTIRE THREAD IS ABOUT.

buskoto

21st Aug 2010, 17:01

Well, now that the girl in the article is flying 737s, we can all be certain she won't have any more prop strikes.:E

scorpilot

21st Aug 2010, 21:09

@ Top Tup: with all due respect to your training qualifications,I would only advise you not to make one sweeping statement about training standards in India...flight safety/foqa are making their presence felt and dfdr's are constantly monitored...so are cvr's randomly..
we are still a developing country and our oldest pvt airline is about 17yrs old, the rest are 5 or less..it takes time for things to get standardised, you know that better than me..

as for the dgca...i dont think any of us would disagree with your views ...hope you share your expertise with us again as a trainer and see some positives...

TopTup

22nd Aug 2010, 00:17

New or old airline, private or public, standards MUST NEVER be compromised. But they are from what I saw. My qualifications, like those of so many of my (expat & local Indian) colleagues were not welcomed when we spoke out against the corrupt system. So, we are/were replaced by those willing and more than able to bow to them.

But as seen here, we look for excuses to justify these pathetic standards.

I sincerely hope that standards lift. But, one has to accept the standard they are at now to be willing to change. AI seriously have delusions of grandeur, yet promote and encourage corruption, nepotism and bribery: safety and standards suffer to a (criminally) negligent standard. Again, just look at the entire reason for this thread!

I make such sweeping statements backed by my own experience, evidence and not something said lightly. In fact I am saddened by it that the profession I dedicated my life to out of pure passion and love for it is disgraced by what I experience(d).

scorpilot

22nd Aug 2010, 11:13

had a feeling you worked for the "maharaja"...that explains your strong indictment of the standards here..
all I can reiterate is we are evolving like everyone else..safety does not happen overnight..

i am outta here..but no generalisations and lofty sweeping statements please..safe flying to all...

VT-GLG

26th Sep 2010, 18:54

I have gone through all the threads.

I am a glider pilot in-fact one of the few of the bread who actually fly by the grace/ovrersight of DGCA at Gliding Center, Pune Callsingn Hadapsar on 136.0 on 5DME Radial 167 PUN. We are the last remaining sports airfield in the India started by 1st Prime Minister Pt. Jahawarlal Nehru.

We fly L-23 Super Blanik sail plaines (Sailplane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_%28sailplane%29) Gliding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliding))

I can understand each of your point of view.

I have been following changes in DGCA and they seam to be happening for good. The present DG has been intelligent & wise. He is ensuring standards and system are set right.

I am not advocating for them or the system. All the pilots at Gliding center are aware of it.

Our licence & documents get lost or delayed (months sometimes years) when sent to DGCA for renewal or for additional ratings etc. Financial sanctions do not come through.

We are treated as 2nd rate pilots. But it take pure skill, good understanding of Met, Nav, Regs to fly a glider for the durations that we fly for.

An average trainee pilots after his solo does a single flight of 3 to 5 hours (unpowered) over and above the experience requirements as laid down.

A lot of line pilots from Air India, Spicejet, Indigo come to Gliding Center, Pune to fly gliders.

Gliding is the best way to gain flying experience when you are soaring and the shear number of landings that we do. The Gimi Glider (Gimli Glider - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_glider)) and US Airways Flight 1549 (US Airways Flight 1549 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549)) are good examples of glider flying experience.

So we do not stop flying after flaring at 50Ft we flair at 10Ft and continue to fly until one of the wing drops to the ground after the landing roll.

It is subsidised by the Govt. of India & it does not cost much to fly a glider - under Rs. 200 for a take off. Your guys should come to Pune and spend some time on the airfield and everything will appear to be trivial.

Some nightmares never go but with time I hope will heal them all, looking at the changes that are happening in DGCA.

Now for the best news of all

Some of the "rot" at the top are about to reteire. hope they do not get extention to their service. (Exception to this is one JDG has got 6months extention approved by the Ministry of Civil Aviation after October 2010).

BAD news:

The above mentioned JDG is interested in destroying Gliding in the Country.. so that he would get a plum job on his final retirement.

The land assets are so huge MIAL management would be jealous. Fit to start a GA airfield and heliport here along with Gliding.

The Govt of India (read the above JDG) feels Gliding Center is a burden on them, What about the 20,000 Crores bailout pakage to Air India and 40Crores to Pawan Hans & God only knows what else .......

Our budget is only 1Crore PA & We are a burden to the Govt of India.

Guys need to see the positive side of this it appears that sun is just rising. & we hope to see bright sunshine some day.

Skywards @ Gliding Centre Pune India (http://www.glidingcentre.in)
Facebook :Gliding Center Pune

jimmygill

27th Sep 2010, 16:06

I am a glider pilot in-fact one of the few of the bread[sic, breed?] who actually fly by the grace/ovrersight of DGCA at Gliding Center, Pune Callsingn Hadapsar on 136.0 on 5DME Radial 167 PUN. We are the last remaining sports airfield in the India started by 1st Prime Minister Pt. Jahawarlal Nehru.

With Charbhe still at helm, I am sure there won't be much of sport. But don't be so proud of the heritage, there are other better run gliding centres in India.

We are treated as 2nd rate pilots. But it take pure skill, good understanding of Met, Nav, Regs to fly a glider for the durations that we fly for.

Funny, so who do you think are treated as first rate pilots?

Our budget is only 1Crore PA & We are a burden to the Govt of India.

Every single entity of DGCA is a burden on tax payer. You tell me, how many clerks does it need to operate a gliding center?

and which JDG?

VT-GLG

29th Sep 2010, 04:39

JmmyGill...It appears that you YOUNG and are not as educated as other in the thread.

Unless you fly a glider you will never know what flying dead stick is!:D

I have a JAR CPL:ok:

Come down to mother earth and think before you speak/write.

If you fly with this attitude, I am sure you will be another number in that sad statistic of Indian aviation and everyone will be happy that you are gone.

So please desist from insulting fellow aviators.

I have a lot so say as far as line pilots are concerned.

But my maturity says that everyone is part of the team and each one has to play his part correctly.

FYI there are only 2 Gliding Setups operational in India today Pune & Nashik so which one are you referring to?

jimmygill

29th Sep 2010, 05:44

Are you Charbhe or close to him? Otherwise I don't see a reason for getting so much on the nerves..

By the way whats a Jar CPL?

leftseatview

29th Sep 2010, 15:27

Without getting personal....gliding/soaring is a great way to get introduced to flying.
Wish more of the young crowd started that way,rather than rushing through a "Crash course" abroad(too many CPL accidents happening)
Getting a few too many "scared pilots" in the airlines nowadays
Wish more people would take up flying for the right reasons
Hope gliding survives and thrives in India.

VT-GLG

29th Sep 2010, 15:46

@Jimmy is that the only name you know in Gliding...Well, you are wrong.:O
BTW what harm has gliding done to you?
You have not answered my question which Gliding setup were you referring to?
When you know nothing about gliding please refrain from speaking about it.

If you do not know JAR than you are still not into aviation. Just goes to show where you stand.

@ leftseatview Thank you for you views & Support.:ok:

Anyway! I do not want to encourage this. :=

My point of posting was to look at things positively. They will work out.

You will see DGCA improving in the coming months.
The examination process, the results, regulations, are all in for a change.

jimmygill

30th Sep 2010, 02:41

Hope gliding survives and thrives in India.

And I hope it survives without the enormous subsidy that pour in.

itsbrokenagain

30th Sep 2010, 02:58

Jimmy... you are one very bitter and twisted person with some strange vendetta judging by all your posts !

But keep it up , its entertaining thats for sure!

PS I do wish I could fly a glider, it must be the most awesome experience to fly purely by reading the sky and for hours on end.. maybe one day I will learn how to really fly.

Meathead Pilot

30th Sep 2010, 03:58

Jimmy... you are one very bitter and twisted person with some strange vendetta judging by all your posts !

Thats because this guy is incapable of finding a job and has nothing better to do than sit in front of his PC drinking tea and shed his frustration in pprune...:E

jimmygill

30th Sep 2010, 16:07

PS I do wish I could fly a glider, it must be the most awesome experience to fly purely by reading the sky and for hours on end.. maybe one day I will learn how to really fly.

Of course you should learn soaring, but I don't want the Indian Taxpayer to pay for your gliding lessons.

You can consider me twisted at least on this, I have had gliding lessons at the very center being hailed as mecca of soaring, but in days when the center was headed by a true (and really big) gentleman. Yes its cheap, less than 4-5 USD per launch, one can't even get a decent burger in that price. I enjoyed the freebie and am against this freebie as well. So Kudos to the JDG who wants this glider center gone, he has my support, and now I have got a job at least a temporary one, a petition to hasten up the closure.