syd sio engineering to loose j*

[griffin one]

rumors have it syd sio will loose j* engineering contract. Apparently going self handling.looks like the ex emirate engineers now on j* payroll

[Bumpfoh]

And the moment something goes remotely wrong they will come crying for help.

To them I say good luck but you can't have your cake and eat it too.:=

[hadagutfull]

Yep... just another nail in the SIO coffin.....

What does the strategy map say to do now???

[chockchucker]

Think you'll find it's not just Sydney but nation wide that Jetstar will be taking over J* A330 maintenance.

[division1]

Good luck to the Jetstar lames, at least they picked up the work.
QF would have loved it go to the shonkiest operators in town,
the IASA debacle at OOL was the proof of that.

[MyerFlyer]

QF will still do the heavy checks on JQ A332s in BNE.

[Bolty McBolt]

just another nail in the SIO coffin.....

That must really effect the required head count at SIO. :mad:


Rumour has it Jet* had 300 applications for the Engineering ramp jobs to cover the A330s on the east Coast. :ouch: One has to wonder where these 300 are now?

What does the strategy map say to do now???

Not sure, Was the "bridge of trust" ever built to leave pity city ?

Is the Strategy Map garbage is being regurgitated at Vincent's new place of employ.

[hewlett]

Surprise,surprise! Buggery continues.

[Clipped]

I'm very disappointed at the level of engagement here.

Need to keep surveying until we get the slightest hint of a turn around.

[griffin one]

J* is nothing more than a tumor bleeding qf dry and introducing workchoices on an unpredecent level.
keep cutting t&c,s guys.
soon the white tail rat will do syd/lax
syd/lhr
sio is slowly bleeding to death while the henchmen offer bandaids

[lamem]

Eventually we will all change uniform. Some have seen the light and already gone. They will bleed the mighty red rat dry to breastfeed the screaming baby.
Will heavy relinguish line in Vic/Tas and Qld and allow it to return to line management where they belong or run them down under HM mismanagement. the rumour is out there of a return but does it have any substance.

[lamem]

Guess that was answered yesterday. Watch for the next readjustments.

[chockchucker]

Guess that was answered yesterday. Watch for the next readjustments.


Can you be any more specific? Are Heavy and Line now separated again?

[crwjerk]

It's LOSE, for ****'s sake. How many times do we have to "LOSE/LOOSE" police.????

[SeldomFixit]

Only as long as you feel a need to persue it would be my guess crwjerk - most people just get over it.:cool:

[lamem]

Line back under young harris, heavy under keith. The BNE kiwi connection won't be happy. Their empitr is gone. Head of supply no longer of assistance to the company. DH now head of supply.

[chockchucker]

.........And what becomes of Mr. Brown (Exec GM of the singular Line/Heavy organisation in Vic/Tas)?

[rmm]

heavy under keith. The BNE kiwi connection won't be happy.

Didn't he put them there too begin with? Although no one would loose any sleep if those two were shown the door.

[18-Wheeler]

rumors have it syd sio will loose j* engineering contract.

I hate it when things get to loose.

[hadagutfull]

Is the management gene pool really that shallow in engineering?? We just keep getting all these position changes using the same deck of cards.....

And what of Mr Clarkes big plans that were splashed out there during all these feedback meetings like integration of 380, customer contracts for line, more overflow work for base?? All out the window now that there are so many fingers back in the pie??

I see the level of communication between management and the workforce is still lacking some what....

I guess nothing going to happen till the EBA is sorted.... not a lot of info on that front either.......

[Dunnocks]

Must be about time they release the final draft of the Sydney Precinct Review ;)

[Bolty McBolt]

Must be about time they release the final draft of the Sydney Precinct Review

That would be fine except the figures were calculated when the SIT had the J* contract.

Oct or Nov 3 (depends on rumour source) is the start date for Jet * full self handling at the SIT. All supplementary checks day stops etc

But not a word from management about numbers required to run the terminal and how it will manage the overflow of available manpower.

The next few months will be interesting

[magic8]

What are the rumours about other east coast bases losing J* contracts? If so when.

[chockchucker]

Not sure when they'll actually take over but, Jetstar engineers have from Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane (and OOL) been doing (and are currently doing) A330 training as we speak.



Whether or not they will just do transit and overnight checks or services such as A checks (like to know where they'll get a hangar and tooling for such work? No doubt JQ management would have already thought all this through?) is not clear.


JHAS could throw their hat into the ring for the A checks but, it would seem ridiculous to take that away from Qantas who are still tooled up for and required to do the same work on their own A330's.


And let's not forget, all this trouble for an aircraft that is supposedly only filling the gap at Jetstar until the 787 arrives. It will then be returned to the mainline fleet.


If I didn't know any better, I'd say the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing in QF/JQ management. Either that, or in advance of imminent QF engineering EBA negotiations starting again, QF are trying to insulate JQ international from any industrial action that might occur (pitting QF and JQ engineers against each other) in the course of such EBA negotiations such as in 2008.



Interesting few months ahead in Engineering spheres within the Qantas group.

[magic8]

Also heard that CNS J* contract lost from Nov-not knowing much about the workload up in FNQ unsure if that will impact on jobs. The same for all bases that lose contracts I guess.What impact on SYD numbers?Again not sure how much of total work J* makes up.

[UPPERLOBE]

Glad I'm retired.

I was at Barry Stewarts last supervisors meeting just before he retired, he said "I've seen the future and I feel sorry for you poor bastards".

Nuff said.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Of course they are training up the JQ engineers.Why is this a suprise to anyone?

If there is any industrial action by the QF engineers,then the JQ guys will just work the QF A330's,as it will be illegal for JQ engineers to not work the QF A330's. That part of Workchoices never made it out of the legislation changes since Labor has been in power.

And as far as management would be concerned, if they have the A330's flying as normal to schedule(supported by JQ), then that leaves the management LAME lackies to concentrate on the 737/767/747 fleet.

Don't be suprised if this is the EBA where the LAME-less tarmac issue comes to the front.:*

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

What's the bet that over time Jetstar take over all their own A330 maintenance (from transits to A checks) then take over QF's as well. This would be a practice run for the B787. It seems obvious when you here QF managment (and I use that term very loosely) talk about the B787. I doubt very much that if you're wearing QF overalls you will never work on one even when it has a rat on the tail.

I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

[Oh Me Oh My]

This is f@#$%^A& bullh!t
This is exactly what they did to the pilots
QANTAS Airlines is s disgrace, employee engagement my a@#$
They just want to hold us down and push us around
I'm so angry
BRING ON THE EBA !!!!! LET'S TEACH 'EM A LESSON THEY'LL NEVER FORGET

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

It was mentioned that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. From what we are seeing, the left hand knows exactly what the right hand is doing. The right hand is shaking yours, seeking more employee engagement. The left hand has a knife in it and it is about to slash your throat.

The Qantas group have deliberately created a number of different entities to avoid obligations to industrial agreements, Australian laws and the Qantas Sale Act.

The next round of EA discussions at Qantas and then Jetstar for LAMEs and Pilots will be crucial. We are all in this together and need to work with, not against each other.

[unionist1974]

Oh how incitefull Fed Sec . Is that your best!

[Ngineer]

Speaking of EBA's, does anyone know if ( or when ) the QF LAME EBA negotiations will begin? Or will this be another EBA that will finally get sorted out 12-24months after expiring.

Bring back the old thread, those were the days....

[Jethro Gibbs]

EBA's, should be sorted out 1 month prior to the date of expiring by law no
excuses shall be submitted this 12 to 24 months after is just crap.:ok:

[arkmark]

Don't care for what's the politics here or what's been said.

My company and my staff don't fly low cost carriers unless the maintenance is done by competant people.

Sorry Jetstar, while your maintenance is done off shore you dont meet my company policy.

My staff fly Qantas.

Dear Qantas, I hear that you are offshoring maintenance as well. I am already researching this as my staff fly SYD - PER on A330's.

This may mean you loose this sector to Virgin.

I recently had the option to fly between SYD and DPS. I chose Garuda because if I have the necesity to fly an airline maintained in a developing country, it might as well be in real business.

Dear airlines -- customers DO CARE WHERE THE AIRCRAFT IS MAINTAINED.

[18-Wheeler]

This may mean you loose this sector to Virgin.

You run a tight ship.

[1746]

While researching you had better check where all VB maintenance is done - just so that you get the full picture!

[Bolty McBolt]

This may mean you loose this sector to Virgin

I know this thread is " syd sio to loose j*"

But does the same error need be perpetuated throughout?

Fed Sec. I disagree,

Jet* are in a mad rush to get a wide body MRO operating at a level that CASA will allow them to handle/operate the 787. To double up on what QF already has is highly inefficient especially when Jet* plan to hand the A330 back to QF upon the 787 arrival. It does not match the business model , So it must be being done out of necessity rather than some great conspiracy. Especially when you look at the management talent or lack of, I doubt you will find anyone capable of hatching such a plot.

E.g., The complete clown and buffoon in charge of the SYD precinct review , This character was so useless he was pushed rather than being allowed to jump. Now history repeats with another know –it- all character whom has never spent a day on a ramp or worked a night shift in base reviewing the area again. No conspiracy just incompetence and it is a common denominator

+ The LAMEs at Jet* are paid well for 1 or 2 types and I am sure most will be part of the ALAEA. :ok:
I would support their endeavours as they would mine.

[ebt]

arkmark, you would do well to do your research rather than assuming the lie of the land is as you say. Most JQ maintenance is done in-house on the shorthaul, while the longhaul aircraft have been maintained O/S because at the time that was Qantas policy. Until recently Qantas had full maintenance control over the JQ A330s, so they dictated that they went to Lufthansa Technik Phillippines.

Also, all Qantas A330 heavy maintenance is coming onshore now at the shiny big hangar in Brissy, so you may want to 'loosen' up about loosing the company flying.

[600ft-lb]

Perhaps this is how Qantas in Sydney at least is going to deal with the upcoming need for a lot of manpower with the arrival of the next 8 or so A380s by the end of next year. Judging from how many people the first 6 have sucked up, I'm sure no one will not be gainfully employed around the Sydney precinct.

[unionist1974]

It seems to me its about time a tickle up was given to those in charge. Or have we lost the will to fight , coz Julia has got a thin margin . And you know who is sweating on a Gov''t Job .Mmmmm. Lets see.

[Acute Instinct]

To the moderators,

We have a probationary UNIONIST1974 who has, as yet in my opinion, failed to contribute anything of worth to the debate. A scan of other threads also shows a distinct lack of substance. Please monitor, and if needed, use the aeroguard.

[fix767]

Maybe all those 2350 Forms were getting to expensive!

[GodDamSlacker]

At $187 per transit aircraft & basically free rectification I cant see how going alone will be cheaper? Good luck to the One Star Boys but I wouldnt expect any support from the SIT guys, when it goes pear shaped.

As for QF Management, what a joke Gavin's meeting with LAMEs, revealed that they have no long term plan, no idea how to fix so many problem here in Base and the A380 monster out of control.
How long can they continue to operate the manpower levels on the A380 estimated costing between $20,000-$30,000 per transit! Seems the A380 expense is tolerable but the wasted resources in the highest paid, multi licenced area is ridiculous. Time to intergrate the A380 into the mainline operation & the removal of at least 6 Ops managers (empire builders), utilise the skill expertise and talent of all of engineering, after all they are all just aircraft.
Once part 100-66 comes in then it will be interesting, as the flexibility should be better, all the B1 rated boys could be certifying a lot more in base cross all trade streams. Strange that management aren't being proactive and training a heap of Base guys up to B1 level in preparation for the change, that would be too smart.
The EBA will be another kettle of fish, I wonder if part 100-66 will be discussed and if the current grading system be converted into a tiered B1/B2 grading system?

[another superlame]

This is a big thread drift but Slacker don't be surprised if Syd Base Maint follows the business plan of 380. No foreman only a few Ops managers and the majority of work being done by cross trade crews.

They know that 380 ops are running with big crews at the moment and they are happy to wear the cost so they can keep experience levels up.

3 more 380s are due before Xmas and 1 more in Feb 2011 so the workload will increase considerably in the near future, not too mention c check support and delivery support. It may be a lull at the moment but as sure as my butt points to the ground it will getting very busy very soon.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Line back under young harris, heavy under keith. The BNE kiwi connection won't be happy. Their empitr is gone. Head of supply no longer of assistance to the company. DH now head of supply.

Slowly things are improving at BNE from the ground up. New (temporary) shift manager (oops, operations manager), and HR witch gone..... full time replacements yet to be found but temps are are a refreshing change.... just hope good things keep flowing in an upwards direction. The almost rock bottom disengagement mite just start improving!:ugh:

[Jet-A-One]

Once part 100-66 comes in then it will be interesting, as the flexibility should be better, all the B1 rated boys could be certifying a lot more in base cross all trade streams. Strange that management aren't being proactive and training a heap of Base guys up to B1 level in preparation for the change, that would be too smart

They won't even recognise the qualification of the guys that have gone out and got their 100-66 B1/B2 basics off their own bat.

When the Base Ops Managers were asked about conversion to the new regs at a recent re-engagement meeting they admitted they have "no idea how it all works" :confused:

[another superlame]

The 3 Base Ops managers are all oxygen theives. They don't really contribute anything to Base maintenance. They could all be sacked and the place would not miss a beat.

They are lying back-stabbing bottom dwellers more focused on what they can do for themselves rather than what they can do to help anyone else.

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Ah Superlame, I agree with about two of the three Ops Managers but I'm not sure about the one "handling" the A330. For him to be a "lying back-stabbing bottom dwellers more focused on what they can do for themselves rather than what they can do to help anyone else" would suggest he would have a certain amount of (all be it underhanded) intelligence. I'm afraid this idiot couldn't make a decision if his life depended on it.

Sorry about the thread drift but I couldn't help myself.

I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

[unionist1974]

Acute Instinct , turn the spray on yourself . Like you I have an opinion . But people like you are so arogant , you cannot contemplate that there are people whom might disagree with you . Get over it!

[empire4]

QF guys, its sad to see you lose more contracts yet again. However Qantas engineering is not gods gift to aviation. Whilst I acknowledge there are a lot of amazingly talented engineers there a plenty of nuffys to make up the balance. Good on Jetstar I say. If they pay less then its up to the LAME and us to keep OUR wage up. The pilots are going through the same thing right now. maybe we should take a leaf out of their book.

[Redstone]

The thing is Empire, I don't believe they are going to actually "self handle". Are we to assume they will now cut themselves from the Qf teet, use their own Tech Services, Maint Watch, tooling, AOG crews etc..... i think not.

I wouldn't mind betting that J* self handling consists of signing a contract with a different service provider, one that probably employs certifying LAME's here on 457 visas because there is a "shortage" of skills in Oz :yuk:

This will impact on the guys who carry out the A checks on J* 330s presumably, even less work for the Base, yet I bet they will be farming out all their gear to the mob that does do it.....

Will they be inclined to pull them out of the poo if and when it hits the fan, that is the 64 million dollar question.

Maybe the Sydney Base "Manager" who nominated himself for a 330 type course can assist them.

[Redstone]

They know that 380 ops are running with big crews at the moment and they are happy to wear the cost so they can keep experience levels up.

I'm not so sure about that statement superlame, my info tells me crew sizes similar to base (and yes upskillers as well)



When the Base Ops Managers were asked about conversion to the new regs at a recent re-engagement meeting they admitted they have "no idea how it all works"

So how do they propose "building the business"? Any new types will be part 66, 330 may even go part 66. Good to see they are all over it :zzz:

[QF94]

QF guys, its sad to see you lose more contracts yet again. However Qantas engineering is not gods gift to aviation. Whilst I acknowledge there are a lot of amazingly talented engineers there a plenty of nuffys to make up the balance. Good on Jetstar I say. If they pay less then its up to the LAME and us to keep OUR wage up. The pilots are going through the same thing right now. maybe we should take a leaf out of their book.

Contracts are not "lost" due to being uncompetetive. They are lost due to incompetence and arrogance. The impending "loss" of Jetstar 330's is no real loss to QF as a whole, as it is a QF Group Airline. The total dollars within the group don't change, just the supposed costings will.

My bet is, that this is the prelude to the 787's due to arrive within the next 12-24 months (depending when Boeing can get its act together). When Jetstar get the first 15 aircraft, their engineers will be trained up to service their own, and may even get the QF contract for the line servicing of the aircraft. Jetstar is growing at the expense of its parent company. QF may well become a support airline for the ever growing Jetstar

[Jethro Gibbs]

Can anyone believe who is running the show at Avalon now amazing is all I can say.

[empire4]

who's running it then? we can't handle suspense. Avalon is yet another setup for degrading the Aussie engineering T&C's. They would give AMSA a race for the title of 457 visa employer of the year!

[Jethro Gibbs]

I am going to let someone else say i just cannot believe it actually I can its not what you know its who know mate !

[another superlame]

Jethro is Avalon being run by an ex Syd Heavy Maintenance foreman? First initial C?

[Jethro Gibbs]

Lets see someone with no management experience not even a LAME and not an avionics person not a Qantas person not a 457 visa person but a Forstaff employee.:eek:

[unionist1974]

Is this true ?what a buch of whackers . Can''t belive it . Are they mad or what

[Jethro Gibbs]

I thought it was a joke when they told us no ones laughing now :ok:

[rmm]

So what's happened to GR Jethro?

[Jethro Gibbs]

gone away next

[magic8]

Back to original thread-all seems to have gone very quiet on J* contract in Oz.Anybody heard when/if announcement will be made.

[chockchucker]

Todays curious email from the ivory tower in Mascot spells it all out as clear as mud.


Will be most interested to see how prepared Jetstar management are for A checks and other assorted 'base maintenance' type work.


From late October Jetstar, will expand its A330 Line Maintenance engineering capabilities. As a result, Jetstar have decided not to renew their Service Level Agreement with Qantas Engineering for A330 Line Maintenance in Sydney, Melbourne and Cairns.

This means that from late October 2010 Jetstar will self-handle Line and Base maintenance in all Australian ports where they operate. We’ll continue providing Heavy Maintenance in Brisbane and supplying all other services to Jetstar as normal.

This decision isn’t related to the service and support we’ve provided. Jetstar’s decision supports their strategy of developing and building in house Line Maintenance capability.

We will continue to manage our business with the current establishment of staff including the provision of additional leave lines. The doubling of our A380 fleet to 12 by mid 2011 will allow us to increase support for A380 Line Maintenance.

Our usual professional quality service will be provided to Jetstar, in the same way as we do for our other clients and, where possible, will help with any requests for equipment, tooling or other support.


Again, all this for aircraft that are to be returned to the QF fleet in a couple of years anyway?


Me thinks there's just a little more to it than that......Interesting times ahead.

[buttmonkey1]

The buggery continues.
Heard JQ woke up and realised their mistake, wanted to keep the mothership deal. Mothership told them to bugger off.
Where else could you get 7 a330's fully maintained for $1 million funny money per year?

[another superlame]

If the rumours are correct JHAS will get the lion share of the A checks.

It has also been said Deathstar have done this so they can show CASA they can look after a big airplane on the little lonesome. Something to do with them wanting the be the first to fly the 787 in this country

[chockchucker]

Can't see JHAS getting much of the A checks. They are still Qantas aircraft and QF has had their fingers burnt by JHAS in the past.


Besides, JHAS have just been weilding the axe of late. Doesn't really correspond with an increase in workload.



As for showing CASA that they (JQ) can look after a widebody on their lonesome, unfortunately for the JQ guys on the floor who will be left to carry the can, I think JQ engineering managements incompetence will be on display for all to see..........

[another superlame]

We have been told that this is a Deathstar decision that was out of Qf's hands. How true this is who knows.
I know JHAS has burnt Qf before, but this is Jetstar and JHAS have been doing work for J* since JHAS opened. Also JHAS has a hangar that will fit 330s.

I think JHAS management are just a likely to stuff this a J* management.

[BigGun]

Lets hope they dont expect to use QF hangers and tools ect.

[Big Unit]

Lets hope they dont expect to use QF hangers and tools ect.


QF WILL be performing 'ad-hoc' work and from that, I gather it will be eng changes and large defects that may require something more than a ladder and a screwdriver to fix.

[Redstone]

It's going to be very interesting to watch, J* say they want to prove they can go it alone yet all they have done is swapped 3rd party mros, they will still use Qf MCC, Qf Tech Services and Qf planning.

With a fleet so small, any delay ex A-check maintenance will impact on their network tenfold (or perhaps a JHAS A check can be performed entirely with a biro)

[chockchucker]

As I've stated on another thread, looks like the plot is about to thicken somewhat.............


Jetstar Branded A330 Line and Base Maintenance

G’day members,

I think most of you will be aware by now that Qantas have announced that all Jetstar branded A330 aircraft will now be maintained in-house by Jetstar for Line and Base purposes. The ALAEA considers such a move as disappointing and more importantly a breach of clause 11., Job Security of the Qantas LAME EBA 8. Essentially, the job functions of employees are to be retained unless it is a factor over which Qantas has little control. We suspect that Qantas will claim that the decision was out of their hands but I think it is sufficiently clear that the CEO who runs the airline and was handed a binding legal contract with Qantas LAMEs can overturn this decision with the stroke of a pen.

ALAEA Officials have notified Qantas that we will be entering their premises this Thursday to collect evidence of the suspected breach in order to do all that we can in the coming weeks to ensure that the LAME EBA terms are honoured.

Cheers

Stephen Purvinas
Federal Secretary

[another superlame]

I wonder if the Base Maint Ops managers fought to keep any of this work, or did they just roll over and take it like a b1tch.

These so called managers are not doing a damn thing to help either morale or keep/gain any extra work. How any of them cam be in such a position of power is still a mystery.

[Ngineer]

Who's aircraft are these?

They are still Qantas aircraft and QF has had their fingers burnt by JHAS in the past.




If these are Qantas aircraft then why are they letting them be maintained by the likes of organisations such as JHAS. One would think that QF would have more input as to who is actually maintaining their aircraft. If these aircraft belonged to me I would be somewhat concerned.......

There is alot more to this than what is being told.

[Torqueman]

Burnt by JHAS how?

[chockchucker]

Burnt by JHAS how?


To answer that question, one only need ask why Qantas no longer outsource any work to JHAS, and instead send overflow work offshore.


Also ask why, after their first aircraft went through JHAS, AAE now insist that their aircraft undergo heavy maintenance with QF tulla, rather than JHAS.


It also appears that JHAS are not exactly the cheapest option around (that said, I have no idea why QF don't do the jetstar A320 heavy work with all the ex-Ansett A320 LAME's they have working for them?). And when it comes to some of the larger and more complicated heavy maintenance work, JHAS are really not geared up for it.

[magic8]

Well thats it-last J* transits by QF today.What are the QF LAMEs going to do with all that time on their hands from tomorrow?

[chockchucker]

Any feedback on how the transition from QF to JQ has gone so far?

[listentome]

all the naysayers are quiet, so I guess its gone fine.
Also found out the base side of things is more a collaborative effort between JQ and JHAS and not just JHAS. Many JQ engineers went down and did the JHAS training so they could sign under their system of certification. This wasnt a case of JHAS wanting the work but more JQ wanting to take it off QF...why dunno, didnt think there were any problems with tulla doing the 330?

The AAE comment, just see how badly the last few AAE checks have gone at tulla, all late...glasshouses?

[chockchucker]

The AAE comment, just see how badly the last few AAE checks have gone at tulla, all late...glasshouses?

Last Few? Well, as only TWO have gone through there, and the fact that such an incredible amount of sheetmetal work was uncovered on both that, I doubt very much any other 737 MRO in the region could've touched, I understand from all correspondance from AAE that they were more than pleased with the finished product.


QF may not be the quickest turnaround but, I doubt you'll find a better quality product out there. Besides, the proof is in the pudding. That is, reliability tracking data from the first 100 sectors post heavy maintenance. And as I say, from all correspondance from AAE that I've seen, they're more than happy with the product. And they're certainly in no hurry to go back to JHAS any time soon.



As for the JQ guys on the A330 I'm sure they'll do admirably until the sh*t really hits the fan. At which time their 'do it on the bones of your arse' management will leave them high and dry with little or no resources to cope.


Which, as these A330's are to be returned to QF anyway in two years, they'll probably have no trouble doing. Then, it will be left to the QF guys to catch all the crap on these aircraft that have been left on them when they return to the mainline fleet.


As always, makes JQ look cheap and QF expensive. Even though they (management of both JQ and QF) still love to trade off the legacy of QF engineering quality.:ugh:

[Ngineer]

I reckon the first major teething problems will be in a few months with delays from fuel discrepancies due to incorrect procedures being carried out during stop-overs.

[Gas Bags]

Your post does not make make sense!!!!


I reckon the first major teething problems will be in a few months with delays from fuel discrepancies due to incorrect procedures being carried out during stop-overs.



You might consider that J* have their own refueling procedures (QF dont have a handle on the world operation of A330's)

What an incredible post...

[Ngineer]

You might consider that J* have their own refueling procedures

Gee, you don't say.....

[Acute Instinct]

Hi Ngineer,

Those of us with a little more than a fart of experience know what your suggesting. I'd bet on it as well. Gas bag, yep!

[BigGun]

At least they have bought there own bright non QF coloured chokes and witches hats :}

[Torqueman]

Gee, it's a shame when God was dishing out the aviation expertise to all QF Engineers, he didn't dish out some humility and respect for their fellow Aviation Industry workers who have spent just as much time in this industry as they have.

Such small people..........

[Silverado]

You might consider that J* have their own refueling procedures (QF dont have a handle on the world operation of A330's)

No, Jetstar don't have their own refueling procedures for the A330. They are on the Qantas System of maintenance!

However Ngineer made no comment about refueling. Ngineer's comments may be more about Jetstar engineers possible lack of experience with the A330 not necessarily their ability.

I did see JQ engineers with a large bucket and sump drain tool in their hands the other day.

Just so everyone knows. QF are the registration holder of 6 of the 7 JQ painted A330's.

[Jet-A-One]

Good on Jet* for taking on their own Transit servicing using their own full time blokes.

It's the A Check maintenance that's being passed on to the J Holland hacks that stinks!

[Gas Bags]

No, Jetstar don't have their own refueling procedures for the A330. They are on the Qantas System of maintenance!




Then Jetstar has been approved by CASA under the QF system of maintenance and therefore said procedures are Jetstars own.

By your own reasoning, when the QF engineers were first introduced to the A330 they must have screwed up the refuelling due to not understanding their own refueling procedures as they were lacking experience on type.

I guess the vast experience on the A320 that the J* guys have has no cross correlation to the A330!!!

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/af246/GasBags/untitled.jpg?t=1288231189



I did see JQ engineers with a large bucket and sump drain tool in their hands the other day.




Oh my god...I hope you were straight on the confidential hotline to CASA to report this earth shatteringly dangerous practice being carried out across the tarmac from your hallowed engineering ground. So this has never happened at QF?......I doubt that.


Just so everyone knows. QF are the registration holder of 6 of the 7 JQ painted A330's


I guess everybody knows now...and your point would be what?



It's the A Check maintenance that's being passed on to the J Holland hacks that stinks!


What a terrible thing to say about the employees of JHAS. I think you might find an awful lot of experienced and professional people working over at JHAS....Even though they may not have been trained by QF!


Gee, it's a shame when God was dishing out the aviation expertise to all QF Engineers, he didn't dish out some humility and respect for their fellow Aviation Industry workers who have spent just as much time in this industry as they have.

Such small people..........


Torqueman...Well said.



In a previous life I worked with a number of ex QF engineers. Some were fantastic engineers who worked hard and did their job extremely well. Some you would not let pump up the tyres on your bicycle. Some were plain experts at doing nothing except ensure they were selected for the next round of training.

The point is that every employer has all types of employee...INCLUDING QANTAS.

The guys at J*, JHAS, or any other MRO besides Qantas have an equal amount of everything it takes to be a cohesive, professional workforce as those employed at QF.

GB

[Jet-A-One]

It's the race-to-the-bottom employment conditions of the likes of J Holland and Amsa etc all engineers in this country should be concerned with Gas Bags.

[Gas Bags]

Understood...You see the employment conditions as less than QF offer at the other MRO's in Australia.

How does this translate into the comment regarding "JHAS hacks"?

Are QF opening the doors to employ the hacks down at JHAS...I think not. So what do these hacks do to feed their families?

I am honestly not trying to have a fight, but the QF 'attitude' is so overwhelmingly apparant that it gets a bit tiring reading post after post on PPRUNE with the subconcious ideal that QF is the be all and end all of aviation.

It is a big world out there.

GB

[ampclamp]

gas bags, firstly I agree with the drift of your thoughts however you may be a victim of prank posting of someone purporting to be a qf engineer.
I have worked at a number of places and the only ones who think qf are the be all and end all of everything are the ones who never been anywhere else or are not engineers to start with.
There are oxy thieves everywhere in life gb.

It is a shame the divide and conquer style at qf over the years has brought us to where lame's are slagging off lame's (if they are indeed lame's).
many vested interests around.

[Silverado]

By your own reasoning, when the QF engineers were first introduced to the A330 they must have screwed up the refuelling due to not understanding their own refueling procedures as they were lacking experience on type.

I made no reasoning, just a statement.

QF system of maintenance = QF procedures.

I'm sure JQ engineers can follow any procedures required QF, JQ or any other.

What a terrible thing to say about the employees of JHAS. I think you might find an awful lot of experienced and professional people working over at JHAS....Even though they may not have been trained by QF!

No comment was made about JHAS engineers, just JHAS! don't put words into other people's mouths.

I guess the vast experience on the A320 that the J* guys have has no cross correlation to the A330!!!

That's your statement, not mine.

The guys at J*, JHAS, or any other MRO besides Qantas have an equal amount of everything it takes to be a cohesive, professional workforce as those employed at QF.

Agreed.

However Ngineer made no comment about refueling

Again, why do you keep talking about refueling? No one has talked about refueling?

I did see JQ engineers with a large bucket and sump drain tool in their hands the other day.

This was an observation I made, which would support my view, that the JQ engineers were carrying out procedures CORRECTLY. but thanks for twisting it another way.
My comment was supposed to counter Ngineers comments about fuel discrepancies.

Oh my god...I hope you were straight on the confidential hotline to CASA to report this earth shatteringly dangerous practice being carried out across the tarmac from your hallowed engineering ground. So this has never happened at QF?......I doubt that.

Give it a rest.

[Silverado]

Does everyone agree that this thread should be about QF engineering loosing JQ A330 work, and not about the abilities of Engineers?

One question? If QF were to repaint some JQ A320's with red tails, should JQ engineering hand them over to QF engineering?

[Gas Bags]

In the immortal words of Sonny Barger....

"Its a red and white world"

.....at least for some people.

[rudderless1]

The issue with Jetstar is not the people but the system by which it has been created.

QF people like to be recognised for their toils aswell.
If our toils are being gifted to another and then told we are struggling what does anyone expect.

You have a premium carrier gifting its new aircraft to its LCC subsidiary whilst it keeps an aging fleet afloat.

Concerns also lie with flying LCC passengers on QF flights alongside those who paid a premium to have there aircraft checked at a higher level, to be fed, support when their aircraft goes tits up and other premium ticket privileges.

GSE equipment, Maintenance systems overheads etc etc.

The real fact do any 2350's (charge outs) ever get paid

It is sad to see an airline which can afford to pay its staff premium conditions be siphoned by the manipulation and greed of unbridled execs
bonus's and a somewhat dubious subsidiary carrier.

As most know this came within moments of destroying QANTAS, yet they are some how praised and idolised.

Why do so many stand by and smile while something so prosperous for all is being destroyed by something less robust, employs people on lesser conditions and fewer of them.

After all is the goal to be working poor ?

Why do we only ever see Jetstar adds now?

Common get real

Don't attack fellow workers when your being screwed by management.

[buttmonkey1]

Plenty of top QF lames jumped ship, don't hear too many regrets.
As for the vagaries of the QF maintenance system, i guess the JQ guys will catch on, hell, many a domestic brother are still struggling with fuel record forms and check sheets. Just takes time, eh.
Presumably the JQ boys will be getting the constant barrage of memos, bulletins, safety alerts and ammendments to digest. That could well be their greatest challenge.
If the knobheads would just stop messing with the system, everyones life at the coalface would be a hell of a lot easier.

[Nero62]

Don't you guys from qf get it? The cost of your operation is now way out of step with all others. The public has now figured out that a box lunch is not worth $100 or more! All the others are growing at huge rates. What of qf domestic? You guys hide from competition ant this can only be to your long term detriment. Joyce has no choice but to back the best return. Safety is driven by casa regs. It is just rubbish to suggest that the others are cutting corners! Just look at the fleet age of qf 737s compares to dj tt or jq.

[buttmonkey1]

Blind Freddy can see QF can't supply a lame for a price anywhere near the 'hacks', operators working out of utes, or even JQ with their NO man handling proceedures.
When they get burdened with the crap heaped onto QF lames the tables might be set more evenly. What sort of costs ride on the lames back associated with nonsense like that seen in the last couple of years

Du Pont know how:\
Amazing People:yuk:
various consutants and pyramid schemes:confused:
Grand master organisers:rolleyes:
Lighthouse groups:bored:
Marlin project:)
Bloated ohs depts.:ok:
Stategy maps, pillars etc:yuk:
Qfutures:zzz:
and all those little things like e-tools, nonsense courses, lifting, falling, drinking, phoning , spilling, crying, bashing. toolbox meetings, safety observations, networking, hugging, buggering. the list is endless.
management that just wastes money plain and simple like hiring hundreds of scabs at 200k to do nothing. Constantly creating new management levels.
How much does that add to the cost of a QF lame servicing aircraft?

[Silverado]

The cost of your operation is now way out of step with all others

Thats rubbish, QF's cost of operation has been getting closer and closer to the others. And with DJ now heading towards a full service model, it will get even closer.

[Jet-A-One]

couldn't agree more buttmonkey1:ok:

[Silverado]

Newly appointed JQ LAME A230 2 CAT = $98,889 PA (salary)
Newly appointed QF LAME A330 2 CAT = $83,7140 PA (basic + 32% shift)

It would take that QF LAME 11 years to match the JQ LAME (this time could be reduced by extra licences)

So where is the cost of operation coming from?


(ps this shift penalty rate is based on a 12 hour 24/7 shift and is my approximation,)

[Nero62]

The Australian today says it all. ALL of the growth is in jq. It's not the wages it's the cost overall. That's driven by the SOM, the cost of turns, the cabin staff, etc. The others just do it to the international standard, why can't cabin staff clean or why do LAMEs need to drive tugs? QF is a great Australian icon but it is now left with none or even declining growth when the others are going gang busters. QF has the oldest fleet and the most expensive maintenance. That's a pretty bad combination. Does qantas really know engineering better than Boeing? Does it give better service than DJ? Why is it so afraid as a group of competition? QF tries to survive by insulating itself from competition. It is so entrenched in it's ways the smart management have given up and created JQ. When QF domestic dies in 5years time, how will the staff feel? Open your eyes to the world! Or die.

[Gas Bags]

Silverado,

I have never worked for QF, however I have a lot of friends who have or do work for them.

To only compare a salary like you have is a little misleading albeit quite interesting to note the differences in salary.

I would imagine that at QF there would be more fringe benefits that ultimately cost the company more per employee. To quickly name a couple would be that a QF employee on a 12 hr 24/7 shift pattern would be entitled to 12 RDO's a year, and approx 6 DIL's a year. The J* employee working a similar shift pattern would have all that tied up into his annual salary and not receive the actual days off.

Also with the QF graded pay scale the number of people at the high end would be fairly signifigant effecting the average payment per annum to the staff towards the higher end as well.

Also things like superannuation schemes, staff travel schemes etc would be a lot more comprehensive at QF than J*, therefore costing the company more.

Please, I dont work for either company so if I have the figures wrong it is my fault as I could not be bothered looking at the awards on the net. The general point should get across though.

GB

[crow17]

Gas Bags,
Just a quick point of order on your last post. At Qantas working an 12hr 24/7 shift, you get either one rdo per month or 6 dilph's, not both.
Crow

[Silverado]

12 hr 24/7 shift pattern would be entitled to 12 RDO's a year, and approx 6 DIL's a year

a 12hr 4 on 4 off = >38hr week, gives them Z days.

However 12hr 4 on 5 off = 38hr week, which does not receive RDO's just the 6 DILS.

QF = 190 HRS A/L + 6 DIL(@6 X 12 =72) = 262
JQ = 220 HRS A/L
DJ = 240 HRS A/L

Also with the QF graded pay scale the number of people at the high end would be fairly signifigant effecting the average payment per annum to the staff towards the higher end as well.

Yes it does affect the average pay, but last time the company told us the average, it was very close to that JQ pay. So after about 10 years as a LAME at QF you can now expect to get the average pay.

The higher levels also have caps.

superannuation schemes

Super is on base pay at QF not salary like JQ. And so is sick and long service leave. (not that JQ has any Long service leave costs, yet!)

staff travel schemes

Very similar, a few less interline agreements at JQ. And who administers and pays for the Qantas staff travel scheme?

To only compare a salary like you have is a little misleading albeit quite interesting to note the differences in salary.

Yes it is a little bit, but it does show that if both business's were to grow, who's average costs would come down as LAME's were employed.

And we haven't even talked about BNE and AVV heavy who only get 7.5% shift penalties. And what are MEL Heavy's shift penalties?

[Perspective]

Nero.

"Safety is driven by casa regs. It is just rubbish to suggest that the others are cutting corners! Just look at the fleet age of qf 737s compares to dj tt or jq."

I'm sorry Nero, but thinking like that means you are either, although i loved the first bit!

a) 12

b) Incredibly Naive

c) Guessing

A FACT is the 737 fleet at last check is STILL running 1st and 2nd
in the dispatch reliability department. NG's at about 99.8% Classics
at above 98%. ( Thats DISPATCH, not ONTIME performance, which can be
affected by a lot of operational situations)

Thats right, our Classics the still the second most reliable.

"Safety is driven by casa regs. "....Hmmmm.


'"QF has the oldest fleet and the most expensive Maintenance"

1st point taken care of.

2nd point. You must obviously know our unit cost making bold statements like that.

FACT. We (Tulla H/M) have the lowest unit cost for a qf heavy maint facility in Aus.Here's a clue, think of a number less than $80, and more than $10!;)

Our 737's back when 2 were sent to MHS cost in the region of $200p/h.
Qf got a bit of a shock when jh's bill arrived, did we send anymore there?

on the face of it, singapore for the basic check seem's to be about
$20-30 bucks an hour cheeper, that is until you throw in extra work, and the fact that every one is a month late, how much does it cost to have a 737 on the ground, per day, out of service.?

Its quite frustrating, to say the least, when all these experts post comments regarding 737 heavy maint.
-Our unit cost is excellent
-our turn time's, (remembering that in QF's system of maint, our 737's fly for a longer duration between Heavy Maint check than most other operators, and have some of the highest daily utilisation,) is excellent

Basically, NERO, QF domestic is doing quite nicely thanks. Particularly H/M.
Neither AAE, BBJ's, QF DOM or Jetconnect want their planes done anywhere else.

Please remove the emotion from you're post, and stick to the facts.
That would be like, like ,like really random.! LoL!:ugh:

[Nero62]

Thanks perspective, very thoughtful reply. You avoided the questions of the fleet age which drives huge cost and why qf are placing the new narrow body aircraft with jet connect and jq. You also avoided the matter of qf domestic now declining. Qf survives on business volume. But as dj improves frequency and introduces wb what then?

[Silverado]

Thanks perspective, very thoughtful reply. You avoided the questions of the fleet age which drives huge cost and why qf are placing the new narrow body aircraft with jet connect and jq. You also avoided the matter of qf domestic now declining. Qf survives on business volume. But as dj improves frequency and introduces wb what then?

And what has any of this got to do with Qantas engineering Line Maintenance loosing Jetstar's A330's.

[chockchucker]

Seems all is well with JQ taking over A330 line maintenance until something like this happens........


Autopilot fault grounds Jetstar plane

Posted November 2, 2010 16:09:00

* Map: Sydney 2000

Jetstar says almost 300 of its passengers have made an unexpected stopover in Singapore due to a technical fault.

Flight JQ 28 was travelling from Phuket to Sydney this morning when its pilots discovered a problem with the plane's autopilot system.

A Jetstar spokesman says the 288 people on board have been offered accommodation in Singapore and have been booked onto other flights.

He says the airline hopes to have them on their way home within the next 48 hours.



Shall be interesting to see how JQ maintain their "independance" from big brother given their lack of resources. Or will big brother be forced to come and bail out Bruce B and the rest of the JQ managerial halfwits?


Certainly also keen to hear how many times the JQ media relations spokesperson can mention the words "Qantas Engineering" when talking to the press.:ugh:

[Bootstrap1]

I will be nice to see J* cop a media flogging. It might take the pressure of QF engineering for a while.

And you are right in that J* will now only be able to blame JHAS and J* engineering for technical dramas.

If big bro does have to bail them out they need to make sure that they are invoiced for every detail, right down to every last washer and split pin.

[NuckingFuts]

Hey ChockChuker, you really can't be serious that the autopilot failing is somehow resulting from the way J* maintains the planes.
Talk about grasping at straws.
Gee did you think that they did some servicing of the autopilot on a turnaround or something?
Really, talk about sensationalism! You should change your name to PaperChucker! Because you knowledge of aviation maintenance is a joke.
Maybe give the media industry a try. If you are not already working for them.
:ok:

[griffin one]

Did the qf singapore A330 guys have to come to the rescue? If so i hope plenty of 2350,s raised. will the bill be paid ? waiting with baited breath.

[chockchucker]

Gee did you think that they did some servicing of the autopilot on a turnaround or something?


Good grief! Now who's displaying a complete ignorance of aircraft maintenance?



As it turns out, the aircraft in Question is apparently now on its way back to Sydney having left Singapore. What are the odds that JQ went to big brother pleading to bail them out of the pooh?



They (JQ) want to take over maintenance on aircraft that they aren't geared up for to show their 'independance' from Qantas prior to the introduction of the 787. Just they don't want to pay for the people and infrastructure to do it.


Then when something goes wrong they still like to trade off the Qantas Engineering brand. If Qantas are no longer good enough to maintain the JQ A330's then I don't see why JQ shouldn't be able to stand on their own two feet?



Oh, and F.Y.I. there Nuts, I think you'll find I have around 25 years more experience maintaining RPT aircraft than you and your single post on this forum.:ok:

[Gas Bags]

Thats a very long bow that has just been drawn

[SeldomFixit]

All this bleating about J* taking over Engineering - what does it take to have you see that J* is taking over Qantas, not just bits and pieces of it here and there. :ugh:

[NuckingFuts]

Hey, I'm not the one suggesting that an autopilot internal fault is somehow related to how J* turn around the aircraft. Bloody hell they only took over the turn arounds recently.


Good grief! Now who's displaying a complete ignorance of aircraft maintenance?


FYI, I my post was indeed geared toward provoking a response.
I guess 25 years would make you an expert. If you worked those years at QF, then is that like dog years? 7 x 25 = 175 years.
Did you help the Wright brothers out as well?
:{

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Hey, I'm not the one suggesting that an autopilot internal fault is somehow related to how J* turn around the aircraft. Bloody hell they only took over the turn arounds recently.The way I read his post, he was suggesting that J* will lean on QF for assistance to rectify the defect..... he was not suggesting that the defect was caused by J*.

I think that was pretty clear.

[Silverado]

Well the first QF A330 painted in JQ colours, was scheduled in to Sydney base maintenance today, since JQ engineering took over. Apparently they need some equipment and help using it tonight.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Kind of like Avalon all over again. Help them out today, your job gone tomorow!

[Perspective]

And melb tool crib was just informed as of
Tonight that they have to supply
Jhas with tooling for them to do the required A330 checks also!

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Melbourne 'eh? Be a shame if some critical tooling was U/S right when JHAS needed it.

[chockchucker]

And melb tool crib was just informed as of
Tonight that they have to supply
Jhas with tooling for them to do the required A330 checks also!


So, not only does QF have to compete with a subsiduary (JQ) to now maintain its own aircraft on lease to that subsiduary but, when the powers that be decide to expand JQ engineering at the expense of QF engineering and subcontract JQ A330 A-Checks to QF engineerings competitor JHAS, QF now have to supply tooling to that competitor in order for it to carry out the work that it obviously wasn't geared up for in the first place?


Anybody want to try and convince me that we're competing on a level playing field here? :ugh: