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Muff Hunter
13th Aug 2010, 01:47
Chorus of anger over Jetstar plans grows: foreign pilots


Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
From: The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/)
August 13, 2010 12:00AM l

THE Australian Federation of Air Pilots and the Jetstar Pilots Council have joined their Qantas counterparts.

They are questioning the low-cost carrier's motives in setting up a scheme to allow foreign pilots to fly in Australia.
AFAP executive director Terry O'Connell said the union had held preliminary discussions with the airline and had misgivings about some aspects of the proposal.
Jetstar has caused angst among its pilots with a plan to set up a new company to allow overseas pilots to fly the airline's planes in Australia. The move is part of a scheme aimed at allowing pilots in countries from which the low-cost carrier operates to apply for positions with other businesses around the group.
Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan told The Australian last week that the scheme was designed to give Australian pilots additional opportunities. He said the AFAP was "quite comfortable" with the proposal and the Jetstar Pilots Council had been part of discussions.
But both bodies have disputed Mr Buchanan's interpretation of their position.

Mr O'Connell said the AFAP would still be opposed to any move by Jetstar to set up a separate entity that would allow it to bring in pilots on conditions lower than those enjoyed by their Australian counterparts.
"We're comfortable with the expansion of opportunities for Australian pilots within the Jetstar group," Mr O'Connell said.
"We're not comfortable with any proposal that would seek to establish a new entity -- and they appear to have backed off from that. We also believe that in relation to the career opportunity that there needs to be some structure in it, so pilots know exactly what's happening."
The AFAP has advice that any move by Jetstar to short-change foreign pilots would be illegal and it is talking to the Australian and International Pilots Association about the issue.
AIPA has written to politicians accusing Jetstar of attempting to undermine Australian working conditions and is threatening another round of legal action if the airline pushes ahead.
The pilots council has written to Jetstar firmly objecting to the establishment of a new company and echoing AIPA's fears it would be used to undermine current terms and conditions.
"As such, the Jetstar Pilots Council can neither support nor endorse these mechanisms," the council said in letter to Jetstar's chief pilot obtained by The Australian.
Sources also said the pilots council had not been included in negotiations but had been called in by management and presented the scheme as a fait accompli.
Mr Buchanan has denied that the airline is planning to bring in overseas pilots at lower wages and conditions and last week accused AIPA of scaremongering.
He said anyone employed in Australia would be subject to immigration and Australian workplace laws and said the main aim of the scheme was to create opportunities for Australians.
Meanwhile, AIPA has started talks with Qantas about a new enterprise agreement covering long-haul pilots. The union said a survey of members showed that leading concerns were about job protection, career progression and off-shoring rather than money.

Mr. Hat
13th Aug 2010, 03:03
Does any body know if the TWU or VIPA are involved as well?

Eastmoore
13th Aug 2010, 08:35
AIPA – AFAP MEETING RE FSO 136/10


Dear fellow Pilot,

Yesterday, at AIPA’s request, AIPA and AFAP met to discuss a joint working relationship regarding Jetstar FSO 136/10. Whilst the meeting took most of the afternoon, it revolved around a couple of key issues.

Present from AFAP were Mr Laurie Cox and Capt Lester Lewis and from AIPA Mr Philip van den Heever, Capt Steve Anderson, Capt Tony Walker and F/O Richard Nelson.

Firstly, AIPA invited comment on the AFAP’s position regarding an article published in The Australian by Steve Creedy (6 August 2010) regarding the off-shoring of jobs, in particular Jetstar CEO Mr Buchanan’s assertion:

"They (the AFAP) are quite comfortable with it and the Jetstar Pilot Council, which is our employee representative body, has been part of it."

Mr Cox would not offer an outright denial of Mr Buchanan’s assertion and would not commit to agreeing to a joint media release denying any such comfort, without approval from AFAP’s Executive. Mr Cox stated that AFAP had written to Jetstar about the article but refused an AIPA request for a copy of that correspondence.

Mr Cox stated that the AFAP believed that litigation to solve pilot concerns was an expensive waste of time and explicitly said they would not conduct any campaign via the media. This comes somewhat as a surprise because it seems the AFAP has indeed spoken to Steve Creedy in recent days and this article (http://www.aipa.org.au/tabid/125/ctl/EmailTracking/mid/510/Default.aspx?linkID=418&[email protected]) was published by The Australian late last night.

AIPA raised the possibility of further legal action against Jetstar regarding the off-shoring of pilot jobs or pilots flying domestically on any contract other than the current 2008 EBA.

AIPA sought an assurance from AFAP that it would never again appear for Jetstar or defend Jetstar’s position (as it did in the Right of Return dispute) in any action AIPA might bring in order to defend pilot job security or secure future expansion on the current EBA. Unfortunately Mr Cox declined to offer the assurance AIPA sought. When the assurance was not forthcoming, Capt Steve Anderson left all present in no uncertain terms as to what he thought of any unionist who actively defended the company position against another union instead of remaining silent on issues on which they may disagree.

Mr Cox said AFAP would likely support any action AIPA took regarding any parallel domestic contract but offered no concern on the topic of Jetstar “expansion opportunities” overseas.

This is essentially where each union’s position now materially diverge. AFAP appears to accept Mr Buchanan’s line that Jetstar expansion overseas with flying on VH aircraft on the Australian AOC and contracts on lesser terms than the 2008 EBA are indeed “opportunities for all Jetstar group pilots”.

AIPA holds that flying conducted by VH aircraft under the Australian AOC by pilots based overseas on lesser terms is nothing less than off-shoring of our jobs and a direct attack on the future of the 2008 EBA. Ultimately this carries the risk of no more hiring, commands or expansion to the EBA and F/Os ‘forced’ (although Jetstar claims it is “voluntarily”) onto a lesser contract for promotion.

Unfortunately AIPA was left disappointed that the AFAP was prepared to offer essentially nothing more than a likelihood that they would support action against Jetstar regarding any domestic flying crewed under a parallel contract and a general tone of non-committal towards support for any AIPA initiatives in the fight against FSO 136/10.




I hope AFAP members think long and hard about a union that does not defend its members, but look after the employer instead.

Can you trust the AFAP if you have a problem with your employer.

Skynews
13th Aug 2010, 12:10
Can you trust the AFAP?

I'm a pilot but not completely stupid!

Laurie is sitting happy on his $200+ thousand dollars and has done what for the industry, or should I say pilots?

Wouldn't waist a cent on him or the AFAP.

mcgrath50
13th Aug 2010, 12:18
So much for a united front!

404 Titan
13th Aug 2010, 13:07
mcgrath50

Remember Cox isn’t the AFAP, its members are and if they don’t like what Cox and the executive are doing, they should make their voices heard and heard loud. I suspect members maybe outraged with them over this blatant selling out of the pilot profession.:yuk:

Johnny_56
13th Aug 2010, 14:31
what other option do we have? As a pilot operating in GA AFAP is OUR union... good or bad.

404 Titan
13th Aug 2010, 16:17
Johnny_56
what other option do we have?
The choice you have is to make sure your voice is being heard loud by the executive. If they aren’t looking after your interest they need to be told this and reminded who they are working for.

Sue Ridgepipe
13th Aug 2010, 16:34
He said anyone employed in Australia would be subject to immigration and Australian workplace laws and said the main aim of the scheme was to create opportunities for Australians.
That's got to be the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. Since when has any manager that is part of the QF group done anything with the main aim of trying to "create opportunities for Australians"? The only thing that they are interested in is the almighty $$$$ and boosting their bonuses. They couldn't care less about any of their employees.

magicbox
13th Aug 2010, 20:44
Once again this useless bunch of clowns (AFAP) are about to sell out the pilot group & its' members. Just look at the Jetstar right of return.

Do yourself a favour people, join another union, TWU perhaps?

Or maybe the CWA ( country womens association ) :} I'm sure they'd have a better chance plus they bake cakes.

If you are with them just for loss of licence you're just lining their pockets, try looking around elsewhere.

If you're with them because in 20yrs time you might get your contributions back. Good luck to you!!!

Di_Vosh
13th Aug 2010, 23:13
Eastmoore's post appears to be a copy of an AIPA communication.

IMHO, it's a pretty self-serving announcement, full of "At AIPA's request" and "AIPA asked this.." etc, all intended to show what a good bunch of fellows AIPA are compared to those dastardly AFAP people!

IIRC, the AFAP action on the "Right of Return dispute" was as a result of J* pilots asking the AFAP to take that particular action. It's a bit rich for AIPA to ask that the AFAP NOT take action at their pilots request.

So much for a united front!

Indeed! So AIPA and the AFAP have a disagreement? This happens with organisations. So what next? Do AIPA request further time to consider their positions, or another round of meetings? No.

What they do is the very next day tell the world that there is a rift between the two groups!

J* management can now relax a bit more on this one; thanks to AIPA they know that there wont be a united union front.

Well done AIPA! :hmm:

DIVOSH!

j3pipercub
14th Aug 2010, 00:03
Eastmoore, you and the AIPA mob should be ashamed of yourselves.

In the time to unite thread, you are vocal and say we should all turn up and make a big difference. Posting this sort of stuff is really making a difference too!

without approval from AFAP’s Executive

Wasn't it the first meeting they had together? Great way to build a partnership...

Sooooo, how many of you guys are pissants???

The Union Pilot (http://www.unionpilot.org/)

J* management can now relax a bit more on this one; thanks to AIPA they know that there wont be a united union front.

Well done AIPA!

Couldn't have said it any better Di!

j3

mcgrath50
14th Aug 2010, 00:30
Indeed! So AIPA and the AFAP have a disagreement? This happens with organisations. So what next? Do AIPA request further time to consider their positions, or another round of meetings? No.

I think both sides are to blame here to be honest. If the membership wants to be united (and using PPRuNe as a very inaccurate survey it seems that way) then both sides need to take steps to move together, not one or the other.

Going Boeing
14th Aug 2010, 01:43
IIRC, the AFAP action on the "Right of Return dispute" was as a result of J* pilots asking the AFAP to take that particular action. It's a bit rich for AIPA to ask that the AFAP NOT take action at their pilots request.

Di_Vosh, what percentage of Jetstar pilots requested AFAP to take that particular action? As the majority are AIPA members, it would appear that a small minority are very effectively working against the interests of the majority.

I assume that with the level of industrial naivety displayed by j3pipercub and yourself, I won't be seeing you at the Pilot Unity meeting at the St George Rowing Club on 23 August!

waren9
14th Aug 2010, 02:21
AIPA took on the right of return dispute because a large number of pilots voted for them to do it, Mr Di Vosh!

Di_Vosh
14th Aug 2010, 03:46
Di_Vosh, what percentage of Jetstar pilots requested AFAP to take that particular action? As the majority are AIPA members, it would appear that a small minority are very effectively working against the interests of the majority.

BG Last I heard was of the J* pilot group, around 40% belonged to AIPA and around 40% belonged to the AFAP. Hardly a small minority working against the interests of the majority.

AIPA took on the right of return dispute because a large number of pilots voted for them to do it, Mr Di Vosh!

I have no problem at all that AIPA and the AFAP took different sides on the right of return issue. They took different sides because each of their respective membership requested them to do so. Believe it or not, this does happens sometimes in industrial relations.

I only raised the issue because this:

AIPA sought an assurance from AFAP that it would never again appear for Jetstar or defend Jetstar’s position (as it did in the Right of Return dispute) in any action AIPA might bring in order to defend pilot job security or secure future expansion on the current EBA.

is disengenous. Just because the AFAP position was also the company position doesn't meant that the AFAP was appearing for Jetstar or defending their position.

As far as I can see, this is the AIPA way of gaining pilot unity:

1: Arrange a meeting with the other major union.
2: Demand that co-operation with the other union depends on complying with something that the other union cannot possibly guarantee.
3: Go public on how the other union wont co-operate, and that it is all the fault of the other union.

And GB calls me industrially naieve! :rolleyes:

DIVOSH!

waren9
14th Aug 2010, 03:54
Again, Mr Di Vosh your membership data is quite out of date.

I doubt AFAP have ever had 40%. If they did, it was a long time ago.

Feel free to form your own views but dont try to criticise others when your information is not right.

Di_Vosh
14th Aug 2010, 04:01
My information was from speaking to one of the JPC members in March this year. I'd be suprised if it's changed that much since then. But I'm happy to agree to disagree.

DIVOSH!

Bird On
14th Aug 2010, 04:19
As always AIPA are too late and have missed the boat yet again. Merely trying to keep up appearances in a fight they know they can't win after having allowed themselves and their membership to fade into obscurity over the last 20 years. The AFAP got remarkably similar answers from the AIPA in 1989 when the AIPA really did have a chance to make a difference for ALL Australian pilots and the entire profession.....reap what you sow!!

AIPA realise their in a no win situation and are already looking for a scapegoat...the AFAP.

Good Luck.

P.S. Its also appears a very hollow and pathetic attempt to poach members from the AFAP :yuk:

desk
14th Aug 2010, 05:09
The AFAP is a pathetic excuse for a union. Only God knowns why LC is still involved because he has shown time and time again that he is more of a company man than being interested in protecting and improving pilots pay and conditions. Take Rex as an example. Didn't bother joining while I was there and glad I didn't.

404 Titan
14th Aug 2010, 06:46
If some people here don’t let go of the f*cking past and what may or may not have transpired then we are all f*cked. Stop this f*cking chest beating bickering right now for the good of all Australian pilots.

People here need to inundate their respective union representatives right now to work together with all representatives for the good of all pilots rather than dredging up past differences.

j3pipercub
14th Aug 2010, 06:56
Going Boeing,

I will be unable to attend as I am on reserve that day, otherwise I would be there. But thankyou for your enquiry.

j3

rmcdonal
14th Aug 2010, 06:59
I assume that with the level of industrial naivety displayed by j3pipercub and yourself, I won't be seeing you at the Pilot Unity meeting at the St George Rowing Club on 23 August!
I doubt you will see Di Vosh at the rowing club simply because he is not in Sydney, however I will be there and am more then happy to take his side of the story with me. :ok:

mcgrath50
14th Aug 2010, 07:28
Well said 404! And in a size that means the older guys don't have to reach for their glasses to read :E;)

psycho joe
14th Aug 2010, 09:31
Mr Cox said AFAP would likely support any action AIPA took regarding any parallel domestic contract but offered no concern on the topic of Jetstar “expansion opportunities” overseas.


Honestly, how have the upper echelons of the afap become so entrenched that there hasn't been a coup of some sort? :ugh: Surely the afap apologists can't continue to blame the constituency for this one? :ugh: The afap would apear to have embraced the spiritual embodiment of the Zimbabwe government. :hmm:

wombat watcher
15th Aug 2010, 00:18
Present from AFAP were Mr Laurie Cox and Capt Lester Lewis and from AIPA Mr Philip van den Heever, Capt Steve Anderson, Capt Tony Walker and F/O Richard Nelson.I have no brief for Laurie Cox and the AFAP but to send Steve Anderson to negotiate with the AFAP is like getting Mark Latham to negotiate on behalf of the Labor Party. It's almost as if AIPA wanted the talks to fail.

CaptCloudbuster
16th Aug 2010, 01:46
You'd have to agree though WW that SA will walk all over QF's Wayne Kearns in the LH EBA negotiations..

wombat watcher
16th Aug 2010, 03:42
You'd hope for AIPA's sake for that to be the case. He must be AIPA's Mr Fixit for everything now.

ANCDU
16th Aug 2010, 06:35
You'd hope for AIPA's sake for that to be the case. He must be AIPA's Mr Fixit for everything now


One reason i would be really concerned for our future at the moment! :ugh:

AIPA releasing this kind of information does no good in the current enviroment and makes you second guess why they are calling a meeting of pilots. Is this to really send a message or just a massive recruitment drive???

I have never been a fan of the AFAP, infact they are a disgrace, but AIPA need to step up to the plate as well. It eventually took a threat to long haul flying and conditions for the panic to set in, even after they sold out their own short haul members with Jetconnect in the last LH EBA.

I am all for pilot untity and a combined voice, as our wages and conditions are under threat, but if AIPA turn this into an AIPA vs AFAP issue to get members they have lost me. Maybe they need to concentrate on getting the confidence and membership of their own short haul pilots back before they start attacking other unions.

Rant over, there is always hope :ok:

CaptCloudbuster
16th Aug 2010, 06:38
I should have realised you'd be too smart to take the bait Wombat:D Best of luck with the negotiations;)