Cathay recruitment

[RoyBoy20]

Hello All

Im currently operating as an A320 FO in Europe with approx. 2500hrs. I would be looking to apply to Cathay at the end of next year. They seem to be accepting applications on thier website but are they actively recruiting? If so, would I start as an SO or FO? Would Hong Kong be the only base available for new hires?

Thanks for your help,

Regards,

[Captain Dart]

You can try the Fragrant Harbour Wannabees forum, which is aimed at prospective joiners.

But for what it's worth, there used to be three reasons Cathay Pacific was the most desirable expat airline career in the world: the A Scale salary, rapid progression to Command, and the Hong Kong housing package. The first two of those attractions have long gone, and the third is under threat. With 'age 65' for retirement, and my personal bet is 70 before the decade is out, it is 'dead men's shoes' for promotion. There are new aircraft coming, but most of them are replacements for the tired old workhorses in the various fleets. And they won't stay shiny for long, as they are always working and the filth in the Southern Chinese air plays havoc with the paint jobs. But they are still 'wide bodies' if that's what floats your boat.

There seems to be no limit to how bad many of the roster patterns can get (e.g. two sectors throught the night to/from India, HKG-Bali and back etc), and I'd like a dollar for every Cathay Pacific sunrise I've seen. New flight time limitations are imminent, and if your assumption is that they will be worse on crews, your assumption would be right. Flogging around Asia, tired, during monsoon season can also be an endurance test.

A reasonably competent and 'engaging' Flight Operations Management changed for the worse in the early 1990's, and your training will be quite a slog, especially if you are paired up with some of the oddballs in the system.

But notwithstanding all that, good luck!

[404 Titan]

From a very reliable source. No direct entry until 2013. All recruits for the next three years will be via the International Cadet Program. 200 cadets per year with no housing. Good luck trying to survive in Hong Kong with no housing and on a SO wage. I believe the first short course starts next week lasting three months. Long courses last about 14 months.

[Captain Dart]

P.S. I hear that there are a few affordable places for accommodation still available at various 'caged men's hostels' in the Kowloon area.

Hong Kong's 'cage homes' reveal wealth gap (http://www.sawfnews.com/Lifestyle/39233.aspx)

Some of the more enterprising cage-home landlords are renovating in anticipation of an influx of new Cathay Pacific second officers with no housing allowance; a fresh lick of paint on the bars, maybe a drop of oil in the lock, and here's your 'home away from home'! You will, however, be expected to provide your own mattress. Just make sure your mobile is to 'silent' at night to avoid disturbing the neighbours when those calls from Crew Control keep coming.

You might enquire about 'leave-flatting' your cage to a new-joiner for a few extra bucks; you'll need the money to cover your ID ticket, and it will be a valuable opportunity for the cadet to experience the new Cathay Pacific lifestyle.

Maybe in the future Cathay may reinstate some form of the old housing scheme where you will be able to purchase a cage, now that will be something to aspire to.

But what the hey; right now you're flying a BIG (alas, not so shiny) JET. See you on the 'line' sometime!

[flynhigh]

404 Titan great post...



I remember when CX was hiring DEFO most of pilots at CX were against it....and now CX is hiring guys who don't even know the meaning of ULH flight or what seat they should sit in for take off and landing....don't believe me just go read it under the cadet Thread and the type of question they are asking each other...Now I wonder which is better/safer for CX crew...Hiring experience FO or inexperience Cadet...I feel really bad for you Capt/FO....Really... can you get any rest while in bunk knowing you have some new Cadet in front....Now I am not saying Cadets are not sharp and one day I am sure they will make great capts....but you cant substitute experience by reading books....you would think Airline's would learn from Colgan crash in Bufflo, NY...read what inexperience FO did when they stall the airplane...Best of luck.

Senate, House Agree to Sixfold Boost in Airline Pilots' Flight Experience - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-20/senate-house-agree-to-sixfold-boost-in-airline-pilots-flight-experience.html)

[EXEZY]

RoyBoy I see you're from London, for heavens sake go to an airline where you'll have a future such as Emirates.

[FIRESYSOK]

Would I leave the flight deck with a cadet at the helm? Heck, why not- experienced FO's in the front of the AF didn't fare too well so why would a cadet be any different? I mean, you would get great rest in the cage housing on off days.

Funny how DEFO was considered the scourge of the airline- protests, lawsuits- and now the arrival of the first airmen with ZERO HOUSING. I'm fairly sure the experience of the DEFO hires would have precluded them from accepting such pitiful terms. Alas, the SO's are getting their upgrade. Tradeoff? Pilot housing in the gunsights.

[RoyBoy20]

Thanks for the info guys... I still have just over 1 year left on my bond so won't be looking to leave my current airline till the end of next year! Looking for a bit of adventure and to get out of Europe for a few years!

[Dead Head]

Flynhigh

The Captain was flying during the Colgan Air crash.
The F/O made $16000 the previous year.

[flynhigh]

I agree that the Cpt was the pilot flying....But if you look at the report....when they stall the plane....the FO retract the flaps on her own......thinking that it will help with stall recovery...

[SubsonicMortal]

FYRESYSOK, that is a very unfair statement regarding AF. No one knows what happened there. Who or what would you have blamed for the crash had it been discovered that the captain was in the flight deck at the time of the accident? You're making a very immature statement labeling FOs as such. There are thousands of FOs all over the world that make way more competent flyers than some captains; and vice versa of course also...

[bunghole]

Currently on the hold file as a direct entry second officer I realize I now have no hope with cadets on the way. No pilot with a family could go to HK on those terms. I don't blame the airline. The industry world wide is being raped.....thanks to all those low cost carriers the CoS just keep on coming down.

Anyone got the number of that truck driving school?

[Busbert]

Referring back to the Colgan Dash-8 crash, I thought that the whole situation was tragic.
The captain, a 47 year old man with 3000h turbine, and 1000h command but 100h on type. He had taken redundancy and in this early 40's and followed his dream of being a pilot. He was earning less than USD60k.

The FO was a 24 year old woman, who had been involved in GA for several years including years as a flying instructor, and had 2400h with 700h on the Dash 8. She eaned USD16k per year.
Incidentally her conditioned response to retract the flaps probably came from her time as an instructor demonstrating stall recovery (the student would be in the left seat, and the instructor retracts the flaps to aid recovery unprompted).

Both of them were commuting to Newark - she flew in from Seattle, he commuted from Florida, as the salaries were below subsistance for their base, and also neither of them had a crash-pad near EWR. Even a crash pad would have been beyond their means. Therefore they slept in the crew room when in EWR.

The management in Colgan were aware that airmen were using the crew room as a crash pad.

From reading the NTSB report (and CVR transcript), it is clear that the dream of aviation will allow airlines to pay below subsistance wages at the first rung of the aviation ladder.

The organisational effects in play in this accident were gutwrenching and it is very unfortunate that the NTSB focussed on the proximal failure (the actions of the crew in the last 29 seconds between flying a stable approach and being engulfed in a fireball.

The striving for efficiency where the majors (Continental in this case) outsource the unprofitable feeder/commuter routes to the lowest bidder who in turn economise to make a profit appears to be a relevant factor.

Moreover, we as a society will expect cheap tickets putting production ahead of protection.
Do we care where our iPhone comes from, or question why things appear too cheap? Are we bothered about the welfare of the folk that make the miriad of useless junk that we as 'consumers' buy and discard to feed the cycle of greed?

We as a society are collectively responsible and we get the disasters we deserve.

[Sqwak7700]

Incidentally her conditioned response to retract the flaps probably came from her time as an instructor demonstrating stall recovery (the student would be in the left seat, and the instructor retracts the flaps to aid recovery unprompted).


Retracting flaps on a stalled wing does not aid the recovery, it just makes it worse. Any instructor that does this to their students will be in for a wild ride.

The Colgan FO's action of retracting the flaps on that stalled Dash 8 led to the aircraft making a half turn spin entry. Had she just given the CA landing flaps they would have probably lived another day.

Ever wonder why flaps down stall speed is lower than clean? :rolleyes:

[Busbert]

Have a look at:
how regression occurs in panic situations
how automatic conditioned responses are learned in skill based behaviour
how easy hindsight bias can apply causality after the fact

In essence, a tired crew lacking in experienced left a switch in the wrong position when exiting icing conditions such that the stick shaker kicked in early.

Was this inattention related to sharing war stories with the young FO beside him? Maybe.

The PIC fought the stick pusher perhaps because he probably never experienced the action of the pusher in training, and with some mangled training about tail stall recovery exacerbated the stall by pulling out rather than dropping the nose.

It all ended in less than 30 seconds.

[Aussie]

The PIC didnt exp. the Stick pusher in training... if that comment is true, then thats just piss poor training. Compulsory on every sim is a few stalls, including activation of the pusher! :eek:

[Sqwak7700]

That is besides the point Busbert. I agree with you that we could spend a whole day looking into the CRM aspect of this or any other crash.

But CRM has nothing to do with the stall recovery. I have no issue with your comments regarding the CRM aspects of this accident.

What I have issue with is saying that retracting flaps is part of a stall recovery procedure. It was this action that turned an ugly ride even uglier and deadlier because it pointed their energy towards the ground and put them in a position where they did not have enough room to recover without hitting terra ferma.

So my point is that raising the flaps in a stall should not be a conditioned response. This is just plain bad, regardless what led her to do this. We will never know her reasons.

[YHGTBSMD]

Another plus for those contemplating Wanchi is that the local working population are not exactly "upstanding" citizens

[Bluestar51]

SQ7700,

So my point is that raising the flaps in a stall should not be a conditioned response. This is just plain bad, regardless what led her to do this. We will never know her reasons

Pulling back on the yoke and retracting the flaps is standard stall recovery technique caused by tailplane icing.

BS

[Bograt]

Pulling back on the yoke and retracting the flaps is standard stall recovery technique caused by tailplane icing.

Please post your source for this information. Not saying that you're wrong or flaming, just want to see it.

[freightdog188]

if you think about it - it does makes sense, in general..

IF you do have a tailplane (ONLY) stall
less flaps will reduce the required tailplane downforce
and a pull back will increase the camber of the tailplane and reduce the aoa of the whole tail and get it to fly again.

however, if you're not trained for that I doubt you'll recognize what actually happened, especially given the little amount of time they had in the Colgan Air event.

[Mr. Bloggs]

What about not getting yourself into that situation? I was taught once about superior judgment but it may have gone by the wayside.:)

[ReverseFlight]

Please post your source for this information. Watch this video from NASA (23 mins): Tailplane Icing (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946#)

(pause video at 17:20)
Tail Stall:
Pull back on yoke
Reduce flaps
Reduce power
-may be aircraft specific

[DaFly]

And all this got what to do with the original post?

[Loiter1]

Nothing.

For whats its worth prospective fragrant harbour wannabees. I have my IQAir set to its highest level and thank god I don't have a wife and family living here.

Check this. HEI - Home (http://hedleyindex.sph.hku.hk/home.php#s)

ps My wifes exact words the other day, 'if I knew how bad the pollution was I would have stopped you from joining Cathay'

[Flap10]

YouTube - Colgan Flight 3407 NTSB Animation of Buffalo Accident Q400 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I)

The tail did not stall on this airplane, the wing stalled first, hence the activation of the stick shaker (the stick shaker is referenced to the AoA of the wing not the AoA of the tail) and eventually the stick pusher, followed by a classic spin entry. The airspeed was left to decay to 120kts before the power levers were touched.

If they couldn't recognize a stall I doubt very much that they would have been able to recognize a tail stall due to ice. The flaps should have been left where they were.