Pilots of Australia - time to unite - Meeting Aug 23 [Archive]

TopTup

11th Aug 2010, 10:19

I have (18 months ago) completed a contract in India as TRE/TRI on the B777 where pilots with 175 hrs TT are in the right hand seat of a B777, B744, A320, B73NG.... (Yes: one hundred and seventy five hours total time: going from C152 directly to these aircraft. First twin is/was these aircraft). And, many with 1500 hrs TT, fraudulent hours and fraudulent exam results to go directly into the LHS of these same aircraft. This is WRONG on all accounts through no fault of their own but due the incomprehensible corruption in training and standards - basically criminally negligent in my opinion.

As a result of this unsurmountable corruption and despicable standards I resigned and now am back in the States....

My point? In Oz you need upwards of 2000 hrs TT, 500 hrs (minimum) twin PIC, turboprop time, etc, etc, etc for the right to hopefully interview for an SO position with QF, or FO with DJ, JQ, etc... More realistically around 3-4000 hrs TT.

So, to open your doors to foreign pilots is just plain DUMB.

Recruit the pilots with 500-1000 hrs TT flying in GA. Train them PROPERLY and THOROUGHLY and there is no reason why any shortage cannot be met. Then if need be recruit with fewer hours experience, and so on. If the GA scene needs the pilots then and only out of desperation look outside. Again, LAST resort. There are countless spoilt brats in countries like India screaming from the rafters with a fresh CPL, rallying the government that they shouldn't have to fly "props" as such jet jobs are their birth right and to get rid of the experienced expat pilots. Get those spoilt brats to Oz for the GA scene and I trust they'll learn humility and even become "pilots" unlike the unsafe fools they are now.

I have flown with a few expat Aussies. They are head and shoulders above the standards of many other nations, due to that GA experience.

So, Oz aviation needs pull its head out of its ar$e, realise that while these GA hours are golden, they can be replaced with effective and non-compromising training. Hang on, this may mean bean-counters investing in their pilots and staff. Therein lies the problem.

What more do these money hungry ba$tards need? Pilots are already paying for the endorsement, being bonded, etc!? I know, foreign pilots undercutting the T&C's...... Look at what CX have done with their SO recruitment but for one example!!

Stick together. See what you already have, protect it and I pray you do not let this happen.

Good luck.

bubble.head

11th Aug 2010, 10:33

Maybe a AFAP representative should sent a mass email to their members whom do not patrol the pprune or a member of AIPA.

Ill be there!

Mr. Hat

11th Aug 2010, 11:09

TopTup you have an insight into what the future might hold if this rot isn't stopped. I suggest you contact this man:

By email: [email protected]

Recently he stood up and called a spade a spade when it came to Anthony Albanese's great ideas regarding jump seat usage.

Another option is:

Contact Four Corners (http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/contact.htm)

Its time for AIPA AFAP VIPA TWU and who ever else to say enough's enough.

Ozgrade3

11th Aug 2010, 11:20

Is this something that a lowly GA driver/instructor should attend?

Im a Grade 1 who trains foriegn airline cadets. While they graduate with CPL/IR, you wouldnt call them aviators in any sense. The thought of masses of low time foreigners of dubious standard flying domestic in Oz horrifies me.

Besides that, if airlines can hire foriegn nationals, on half the pay. What jobs will there be left for Aussies comming up through the ranks.

Aussies for Aussie Jobs.

golfjet744

11th Aug 2010, 11:27

This QF F/O will be there. :ok:

No need for a paper bag. QF HR are as disengaged as we are.

xjt

11th Aug 2010, 11:27

I cannot believe that people in this company believe its in there best interest to sit by watch it unfold. Couldn't agree more that enough is enough. God if i knew this crap was on the horizon I would have stayed at my crappy low paying regional job in the U.S. At least there there is a sense of brotherhood, decency and a back bone. Seniority = Safety. It is the only thing that separates us from those 250 hour pilots in asia, and the so called qualified CAptains.

The culture that has unfolded in Australia is just down right disgraceful.

MaxHelixAngle

11th Aug 2010, 11:40

Awesome, It's finally happening.

United we (pilots) stand, divided we fall.

The Green Goblin

11th Aug 2010, 11:50

I'll be there :ok:

Clipster

11th Aug 2010, 12:05

Great thread,

Thanks for the support guys,

I will be there

Jetstar FO

aaron794

11th Aug 2010, 12:21

Hi guys and gals, student pilot here, and this could change my future! id nearly accepted the fact that my future as a professional airline pilot was never going to be a glamerous one but this thread has given me new hope. I often engage in discussions with people who know little about the appalling conditions the pilots, whom they trust with there lives regularly, work in. to fund my flying training i have been working as a rail attendant and to make my point i tell these people that i earn more pouring **** coffee than my mate who is a Q400 FO for sunstate. this is unnacceptable. I hope i can be there to help represent those who will shortly be comming up the ranks chasing our dreams. I will see what i can do but if i cant make id like to know if there's anything i can do to help this cause and make my future brighter.

The problem is we all love flying too much. The big guns know this and think they can push us around. But this is our second chance to stand united and show them that we are one of the biggest assets in the aviation industry. We are smart. Lets not let em beat us again. This is OUR game!

Private Patjarr

11th Aug 2010, 12:52

It would be hilarious if the whole outsourcing idea by Jetstar backfires on them after this meeting. Good on AIPA!! Good for the Australian pilot profession. Everyone from other airlines are watching!

framer

11th Aug 2010, 13:02

Man I hope this works. I know Dash 8 pilots who have slogged their guts out for years and years who literally get paid less than the load controller who has been in the industry ten minutes and saunters out to the aircraft to give them the load sheet.

astroboy55

11th Aug 2010, 13:04

ozgrade 3,

EVERYONE is welcome to attend........regardless of union membership, job status, hours etc...so come along :ok:

this SO will be there as well. Lets get this rubbish sorted:D

framer

11th Aug 2010, 13:04

Actually, now that I think about it, I know A320 pilots who get paid less than them too.

bubble.head

11th Aug 2010, 13:08

Man I hope this works. I know Dash 8 pilots who have slogged their guts out for years and years who literally get paid less than the load controller

Dont forget to include the baggage handlers in the list of higher paying!!

lemel

11th Aug 2010, 15:19

I live in the west so won't be able to make it. I would however like to voice my support in anyway I can and would love to know the outcome of this meeting.

Good job fellow aviators. Stick together.

Long John Silver

11th Aug 2010, 15:37

Perhaps we need follow up meetings in Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth etc to get a collective show of real numbers. This is a national issue and it needs to go national.

wombat watcher

11th Aug 2010, 20:40

At least there there is a sense of brotherhood, decency and a back bone.
A bit of a mouthful xjt given your details say you're from the States. It all started in the US and then Canada and then Europe.
That is what a big part of the 1989 pilots dispute in OZ was all about. De-regulation was coming and AFAP wanted a higher wages base for OZ airline pilots a. because it may have been the last chance and b. because it would have been a higher figure from which to start taking pay cuts. Pity abut the tactics and the result though.
I do hope that this endeavour produces a much better result than that.

exeters pyramid

11th Aug 2010, 21:28

This QF Captain will be there.

TWOTBAGS

11th Aug 2010, 22:03

I'll be there, any other corporate drivers showing???

Brindabella

11th Aug 2010, 22:15

The next VB pilot roster starts Aug 23. Hopefully everyone who is free on that day will be there.

There is no doubt this issue is the most imminent threat to VB pilots at the moment.

Ask yourself. Who is going to fly the 767s when they arrive and on what terms and conditions? What happened with the 777? What happened with international flying on the 737 and on what terms and conditions?

No one wants to stop a company from starting another airline under different AOCs. But none of us should allow them to farm out our jobs at lower and lower wages especially if they are being off shored.

You may be happy with your terms and conditions in general but like all airlines in this country these conditions are not protected by scope clauses or alter ego clauses in your EBA that require your airline to hire onto the same EBA and seniority list if they own or operate under a different AOC.

mcgrath50

11th Aug 2010, 22:51

Perhaps we need follow up meetings in Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth etc to get a collective show of real numbers. This is a national issue and it needs to go national.

I'm in for Melbourne! Maybe we can get the ball rolling for one now?

Flava Saver

11th Aug 2010, 22:58

A very quick (and publicly) vote of NO CONFIDENCE in Senior Management, AND Flight Ops Dept, will have two effects. It would get a reaction from the QF Board, as well as CASA. To carry its weight would be to get Flighties & Engineering brethren to assist us in such a vote, as it will carry more weight.

Food for thought.

Muff Hunter

11th Aug 2010, 23:04

Bruce Buchanan (REG) is the saviour of our industry..:ok:

He has single handedly taken the AIPA membership at Jetstar from 20 to over 300, and growing in the last 18 months.

And now, he is seeing us unite as we have never before.

Keep up the good work Bruce, the rate your going we'll have AIPA/AFAP/VIPA and the TWU all having a BBQ on the same day with all OZ pilots there.

I also think it's great idea to have these gatherings at ML and BNE, we need to keep the momentum building before we are all working for even lower wages.

No Idea Either

11th Aug 2010, 23:30

If I'm off and in SY, I'm there (VB). Perhaps for those who cant make it, a consent form of some sort be drafted so they can sign and a petition of absentee names be produced for further support.

GADRIVR

11th Aug 2010, 23:41

"This will affect ALL Australian Pilots at some time during their career - so we need your support"

With the greatest of respect Woody, how is this going to affect a GADRIVR and his/her terms and conditions out there in GA land?

I'd like to say that I'd be attending however the porpose of this meeting seems firmly aimed at resolving the present predicament that the QF group aircrew find themselves in at the moment, and as such, will not affect me one way or the other (nothing changes in other words).

To ask GA types to be there as this MAY affect your future seems a tad naive as it stands at the moment.

Put out the phrase "we also will be applying immense pressure to the GA employers sector with a view to improving T&Cs and giving those aircrew a viable career path" may give me personally a reason to attend.

Kind Regards,
GA driver

Alloyboobtube

11th Aug 2010, 23:46

I hate to say it but I cant see this as winnable.
The o/seas guys who will bid for Australian jobs will be Australians with Aussie passports, cant really stop that.

The new job contracts are legit and if signed by whoever will be binding. There is enough desperation in this industry to fill any jet position, look at the JQ A330 Singapore.
We are unfortunately in the age of if you dont like it leave , and there is lots more not to like coming.
JQ are one step ahead , they know maybe 50 or so F/Os will leave, cadets will fill the positions on lower salary, its a win win for the company.
I hope you guys can achieve something I really do, but it sure looks bleak.

:D

Private Patjarr

11th Aug 2010, 23:50

Simple. It will have a flow on effect down throughout GA. If the airlines are less desirable a place to work, GA pays will be scaled back too.

Everyone needs to be there.

Together we need to act now to preserve all of our livelihoods.

Whomever you are, if you want to preserve the career path of the Australian professional aviator - Get to this meeting any way you can.

FGD135

12th Aug 2010, 00:15

Ahem.

Any improvement to pilot salaries and conditions will come at the expense of other pilot's jobs.

breakfastburrito

12th Aug 2010, 00:38

FGD135, I sorry but when the combined tech crew costs of a ticket between SYD & MEL/ADL/BNE/CBR is 1/10th the passenger handling charges alone, I call bull****.

The burritomister will be at the meeting.

Keg

12th Aug 2010, 00:43

We should organise a 'PPRUNE corner' at the meeting. Time to 'out' everybody! :E

breakfastburrito

12th Aug 2010, 00:47

We are unfortunately in the age of if you dont like it leave , and there is lots more not to like coming.
JQ are one step ahead , they know maybe 50 or so F/Os will leave, cadets will fill the positions on lower salary, its a win win for the company.
That is why I will fight with every fibre in my body to expose the indentured servitude that is the modern cadetship system.

Sure, some will be caught in the first & second rounds of these modern slavery schemes. But thanks to the Internet, as things pan out as I predict, the numbers who will willingly sell themselves into bondage will diminish rapidly. All it will take is the cadets themselves to start campaigning against these scheme once the "shafted" penny drops - just as they have done in the UK CTC slavery thread (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/398854-easyjet-ctc-cadet-pilot-slavery-contract.html).
Unlike 20 years ago, google allows information to flow.

Mr. Hat

12th Aug 2010, 00:58

how is this going to affect a GADRIVR

Let me tell you QF J* and 89ers standing side by side has implications for the entire industry. Your conditions are directly connected to the conditions in Jet land. Suggest you have a look at what happens in GA in the states.

My only concern is that the meeting will only be attended by ppruners. Alot of people don't read it. Would be good if the AIPAAFAPVIPATWU reps could email or call their members.

shnee

12th Aug 2010, 00:59

As a JQ FO, I would love to be there. To be standing beside any aviator. No matter which company, flying whatever aircraft and being represented any union.

As I am unable to attend in person, you still have my full support.:D:D

drugs detected

12th Aug 2010, 01:39

Words just can't say how upset everyone is at Jetstar. With morale down so low I don't know if there will be anyway of returning this company to the great times when Mr Joyce was in charge.
Check out our OTP each week, just embarrising! And our CEO thinks it is good.
Can't wait to see this weeks!

GA guys it does affect you if you want a career in the airlines. Do you want to start on 50k/year out of Singapore? Or maybe a liitle more out of NZ? And that's after paying $35k for an endorsement. Rememeber your Command and base will be on merit!

Bruce asked us in a past engagement survey whether we would recommend people to positions within Jetstar. I and nearly every other pilot in Jetstar right now would say NO NO NO, this place has fallen apart.

I truly believe that many QF pilots will turn up as JetConnect is having the same effect on their morale. What is happening at VB and what will happen at Tiger, REX and any other airline?

I'll be at the meeting thanks to Bruce's management skills!

Regards,
A once dedicated Jetstar Pilot.

notaplanegeek

12th Aug 2010, 01:43

I guess everyone who has thoughts on this would like to attend. An idea;

A list of emails from people who oppose the JQ?

Or a list of comments about JQ?

The more support the better, and if someone came to the meeting with 500+ comments opposing it, we would stand a much better chance. Maybe they might listen to us.

Everyone knows most pilots in GA are pussys and will no stand up for themselves, so with the comments list an option you could remain anonymous?

Mr. Hat

12th Aug 2010, 02:10

most pilots in GA are pussys ??Most of the pilots in GA are the same as the guys in the Airlines. They just started a few years later?? They'll eventually be the people that will have these contacts pushed in front of them during their interviews.

Words just can't say how upset everyone is at Jetstar

Yeah you know this is true when senior 320/330 guys start applying to VB!

m-dot

12th Aug 2010, 03:56

I would think that the QF drivers would want to show up for sure.

If its happening at Jetstar, it cant be too far away from happening at QF. Its certainly in their interests to stop this as well.

In fact I think its in every pilots future (well anyone who wants a viable career from aviation in the future).

A. Le Rhone

12th Aug 2010, 05:41

Wow - so far I'm amazed. As post No 3 on this thread I predicted this would probably degenerate into the usual self-interested, sneering backstabbing that is all too frequently the hallmark of the Australian 'Professional' pilot body. So far so good!

Since at least 1989 we have been played masterfully by skilled airline managers who know exactly how to manipulate us. Our division has only helped them further.

If we can just maintain a degree of forward vision over perceived short-term personal benefit then we will have taken the first step in re-instating the rewards sought after years of slugging it out for historically low pay and conditions.

My next wish-list item would be a truly united AIPA/AFAP/J*/VB etc union with members who have the nouse to put the past behind them and move forward for the benefit of EVERYBODY.

Sure you will always have the inevitable snakes who will undermine us all as a collective group by undercutting etc but the ONLY way to gain improvements for all Professional pilots is to do so as a collective and united group.

Whilst a new united union may result through efficiencies of scale in the loss of a few clerical/admin jobs it would hugely benefit the lot of ALL Australian pilots and surely that should be the ultimate aim?

Great to see people taking the initiative.

1a sound asleep

12th Aug 2010, 05:50

PLEASE - Stop at consider what is really happening to the airline industry in Australia

1. Airlines are not making any real profits. QF's latest profit comes from payments for dealyed a/c deliveries and selling FF points to Woolworths
2. The cost structure of Australian Airlines is under threat from the Asian carriers who have substantially lower costs ie. AirASiaX
3. Incomes in the industry will fall to try and compete
4. Unless costs can be controlled (and part of this problem is middle management) airlines operating into and in Australia will become primarily Asian owned ie. Tiger
5. The days of huge salary and the laid back lifestyle are gone
6. If you want high income go get a job selling insurance or become a dentist or lawyer
7. Rember 1989. 1989 Part II is coming

THINK
a. Save the industry
b. Save your jobs
c. Secure the future

no one

12th Aug 2010, 05:55

Would love to attend but based away from SYD and flying that day.

Good luck and look forward to the post meeting outcomes...

Baldnfat

12th Aug 2010, 06:40

What effect on the Australian economy (just after an election??) would parking everything at the gate/terminal/strip/loading pad/helipad whatever you want to call it and walking away for 1 day have?

I can't attend the meeting. I Cannot afford the trip on my GA salary!!!!!

I will not fly anywhere on this day, by choice.

Good luck and safe travels to All.

1a sound asleep

12th Aug 2010, 06:54

What effect on the Australian economy (just after an election??) would parking everything at the gate/terminal/strip/loading pad/helipad whatever you want to call it and walking away for 1 day have?

Sorry to offend but what part of 1989 do you not understand?
1989 Australian pilots' dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Australian_pilots'_dispute)

An orchestrated move that back fired in the worst possible way. Just ask the crews that NEVER flew again in Australia. I have said it before and I say it again 1989 part II is coming

magicbox

12th Aug 2010, 07:12

With the greatest of respect Woody, how is this going to affect a GADRIVR and his/her terms and conditions out there in GA land?

I'd like to say that I'd be attending however the porpose of this meeting seems firmly aimed at resolving the present predicament that the QF group aircrew find themselves in at the moment, and as such, will not affect me one way or the other (nothing changes in other words).

For those that think along similar lines have a good hard look at yourself and your mates in aviation.

It won't affect me....:ugh:
Wrong...

It might not affect you today, maybe not tomorrow but you can't bet your last breath it will affect you.
So you're a GA pilot, do you want to stay where you are?
How about when it comes time to move up the ranks only to find out the position you've applied to has already been filled by cheaper labour.
Or the job you dreamt of for so long pays less than it did 1,2,3,4,5.....20 years ago when you said arrogantly it won't affect me.
Or how about when it comes time to get another GA job or the boss turns up one day with a re-negotiation for you.

Think it won't happen. What happens when this gets pushed through by Jetstar.
You decide (along with plenty of others), I didn't want to go there anyway...T&C's are garbage.
Movement stops. Jobs are still filled by contractors, foreigners or whom ever.
You go to your boss....I'm still here, a loyal employee, no incidents blah blah blah, how about a payrise.
Boss turns around, yeah but you're not leaving nor is anyone else. They pay crap over at xxxx so why should I pay you more, they work harder, its a jet/prop, more demanding etc etc etc the list goes on.

Anyone who is anyone should attend this meeting from students to charter guys, RFDS through to airline pilots.

If you knew you were going to be on lesser T&C's in 5-20yrs from now than you are today......what would you do?

Think it won't happen. Try a little research

breakfastburrito

12th Aug 2010, 08:06

1a Sound Asleep, we are all waiting for your solution, assuming that you perceive there is actually a problem. Please provide us with your wisdom, what exactly would you suggest?

Mr. Hat

12th Aug 2010, 08:10

THINK
a. Save the industry
b. Save your jobs
c. Secure the future

1a whats your suggestion? I've read your post and I get the distinct impression you think you think we should just accept the offshoring and side stepping of our EBA's. EBA's that were agreed to by employers and employees.

6. If you want high income go get a job selling insurance or become a dentist or lawyer

Nothing to do with a high income. Just a fair days pay for a fair days work. Someone has to stand up and say enough's enough.

The low cost AirAsia/Tiger style of business will eventually erode safety margins and the Australian tax payer will be the eventual loser when a tired hungry stressed pilot has a bad day.

They're already complaining How did the friendly skies become so unfriendly? | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/how-did-the-friendly-skies-become-so-unfriendly/story-e6frfq80-1225904291074)

Its time for some reform in this industry.

FGD135

12th Aug 2010, 08:14

I tried to make this point in an earlier post, but amid all the euphoria, it seems to have gone through to the keeper:

Improving your own salary and conditions will put other pilots out of a job.

This is a basic economic reality. Improvements to YOUR terms and conditions are at the expense of other pilot's jobs. This is because the money that pays the increased salaries must come from the public.

But the public, generally speaking, can't afford the extra cost, or are not prepared to pay it.

And no, it is not just another 20 or 30 cents on the airfare.

mcgrath50

12th Aug 2010, 08:28

I agree FGD, let's all work for minimum wage and everything will be ok :ugh:

Thai997

12th Aug 2010, 08:44

This is not about improving salary ! - Most of the JQ guys I know are relatively happy with the pay and conditions in their EBA, its the principle of offshoring new jobs to other countries and bringing in new crew on dodgy contracts to fly the ones they cant offshore.

If JQ can do it, so can any other operator. Look back at what QF and JQ have done to divide the flight attendants in the last few years - there are now about ten different companies/contracts, where there used to be one or two. Each new company/contract undercut the last, and lots of them are now based in asia earning little more than a bowl of labrador and rice a week...... Im sure they would love to do the same to us.

This has the potential to effect GA drivers and regional pilots as much as any JQ pilot.

If you were Bruce Buchanan would you rather employ an experienced 3000hr FO from a regional airline on $90k or a 200hr cadet pilot you lock in for 6 years at $40k (and has already paid you $100k for the privilege) ?

I never thought Id see this sort of unity on PPRUNE.... is great.... were up to page 4 and no one has make a kok of themselves yet - Ill be there !

Do I need to RSVP ??

Beers afterwards anyone ??

porch monkey

12th Aug 2010, 09:19

Don't know what the roster holds yet, but if available I will also be in attendance. For the one or two clowns who simply think we are after lots and lots a money, grow up and actually read what's going on. As a poster above said, this is about at least retaining what we have, and halting that slide into oblivion that the pissants who run these airlines take so much joy in implementing.

3 Holer

12th Aug 2010, 09:36

Before you all get too full of bravado, just have a good read of the lengths the Airlines will go to to maintain the modus operandi. It is all here (http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/pd89_document.htm) and pay particular notice of the section titled "The Role of the Pilots who scabbed".

Good Luck :ok:

A. Le Rhone

12th Aug 2010, 09:50

One of the biggest problems with pilots is we are surprisingly blind when it comes to matters of economics.

Some of us even believe the nonsense put out by airline CEO's and even regurgitate it here.

ie: the sky is falling. Sneaky Asian airlines will undercut us. Employees salaries must be cut to stay competitive. cut, cut, cut, chop, chop, chop. Be careful or we'll put another 1989 your way. Be scared. Accept these cuts to save the industry, save your jobs and secure the future.

But then the airlines reap in millions in profits. The greedy CEO's depart with massive payouts and yet we are gullible enough still to cower in fear!! Astonishing.

I work for an Asian airline and I make way more than I could in Australia and the cost base here is far higher than Australia. Pilots in Australia are being conned and just taking it.

The airline I work for made nearly ONE BILLION AUSTRALIAN DOLLARS in the last six months alone. And still it's CEO's are blurting on about rocky recoveries and the need for staff to accept no salary increases. That doesn't apply to their bonuses of course.

Bottom Line: Airline CEO's want to make the best profit so their CV looks good and they get a better job in the future. If that means screwing you out of everything then so be it. You are just an impediment to how much money lines their own pockets.

Bottom Line: Basic economic laws of supply and demand still control most markets and pilots are no exception. This has been the root cause of much of our problem over the years - too many pilots not enough proper jobs. But the law still works and being a pilot is no longer attractive so fewer and fewer are being churned-out. Airlines globally have so many aircraft on order and are about to have difficulty getting experienced pilots to fly them. Emirates is only one - needing 750 pilots in the next 16 months. This shortage was already the case before the GFC and my airline couldn't get what they deemed decent pilots anywhere.

Net results is that Terms and Conditions for qualified and experienced aircrews MUST improve in accordance with basic economic laws.

But it is important that we don't swallow the nonsense sprouted by CEO's whose only interest is their own. Airlines may temporarily distort markets by importing say a Cessna Caravan driver from Bolivia with 800 hours to be an A320 Captain BUT as the Colgan case in the US proves, governments will not allow this indefinitely as standards inevitably slip.

And this is the key to our own PR Case. Governments and the public need to be made aware that the J*'s of this world will stop at nothing to boost their profits, including the inevitable reduction of skill and experience that lowering
recruitment profiles entails. This inevitably will be countered with claims of featherbedding etc and the likes of O'Leary of Ryanair are past masters of this. But don't be dissuaded by this tactic. The Colgan case and the US Congress minimum-experience legislation is a very powerful PR weapon for us.

And for goodness sake don't go falling for the CEO Chicken-Little "Sky is Falling" spiel.

Jeez I can rabbit-on, sorry about that...

peuce

12th Aug 2010, 10:01

Guys & Gals,

I'm not one of you ... but I support you.
You may have only one chance at this, so make it a good one.
Suggestions:

Yes, there have been some bastards pilots, bastard organisations and bastard companies in the past. Get over it quickly ... and move on.
Don't worry too much about how companies will fund your salary. That's just a reasonable cost of doing business ... just like fuel costs, ASA charges and "Taxes". It's their responsibility to sell ticket prices to the public ... if they want the public to fly.

I've seen other groups within a similar industry have a similar opportunity. Petty jealousies scuttled the attempt ... to their long term loss.

Best of luck.

Mr. Hat

12th Aug 2010, 10:10

A. Le Rhone what a fantastic post.

I guess there is always the option 1a and FDG offer. Sit back and let it happen because hey we need to protect jobs.

Then in 10 years time when all cabin crew and pilots and indeed all staff bar the CEO are from Manilla and Dheli and the likes of these two start complaining about How did the friendly skies become so unfriendly? | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/how-did-the-friendly-skies-become-so-unfriendly/story-e6frfq80-1225904291074) we can send them a post card from which ever overseas country we've taken our experience to. On the post card is written "made your bed now sleep in it".

Alternatively we'll just wait for 180 people to die because some indian lad had been awake for 56 hours due to exemption x and speared one in. This might be the easier option shouldn't take too long. That annoying human factors thingy just keeps popping up. Just ask the Colgan family and friends how the cheap fares are going.

There's only so much you can squeeze out of the aviation orange before something goes bang. Oh well.

MaxHelixAngle

12th Aug 2010, 10:34

FGD135,

Improving your own salary and conditions will put other pilots out of a job.

Is a very naive and short sighted view of price elasticity in economics. Just to flip it on it's side, what would happen if pilot salaries dropped to minimum wage? Would the industry attract the right professional's to its ranks? How would safety be affected?

If you are correct then perhaps we should apply this to the medical profession, would reducing doctors salaries increase the amount of doctors in the ranks? Many more people could then receive more detailed medical attention / cosmetic surgery / less hospital waiting times? There is after all a finite amount of money available from govt/insurance/private health funds.

Besides, as has been pointed out this meeting is not about increasing pay, but protecting T&C and ensuring that there remains an aviation industry in Australia.

Cheers,
MHA

BadPony

12th Aug 2010, 11:15

I presume our little non-Australian "Friends" at the respective airlines are not welcome at this meeting?

WB Bach

12th Aug 2010, 13:03

One would assume that those in NZ on the disgraceful NZ contract would be welcome to attend. I know for a fact there are some in Christchurch keen to attend.

The Christchurch example has got to be the worst situation in the whole Jetstar debacle. Pilots on the pitance salaries, working along those on EBA contracts ! Same job, same aircraft, same routes - only difference: less days off and a fraction of the salary !!!!
Let Christchurch be a lesson to us all, and STOP IT HAPPENING IN OZ AND ALL BASES !!!!!

teresa green

12th Aug 2010, 13:06

You blokes cannot allow what happened in 89 make you have to put up with sh#t forever more. I for one wish it had never happened, but it did, learn from it, we were like lambs to the slaughter, you are anything but. At last I am seeing, I hope, some balls out there, and for us 89ers perhaps it will give us reason to cheer at long last. Get this into the press, not check book stuff, but perhaps 4 corners, the seven thirty report, etc get it out there, get the engineers on side, involve GA bigtime, the flying schools are going to be badly hit, get them involved, get yourselves a press guy, involve high schools that have aviation courses ditto tech colleges and most of all get the public on side. Most Australians are fairly laid back about flying, that is partly because of their confidence of the bloke or girl up the front, they know the score, thousands of hours etc, they will not be too comfortable when this suddenly changes, not at all. Is this on all airline chatrooms/forums, if not why not, AND STICK TOGETHER, and last but not least, all of you take on two extra tons, just to tickle em up a bit! Us old blokes will be cheering you on, for the sake of our young pilots, go for it!:D

astroboy55

12th Aug 2010, 13:49

Apparently the media will also be there, so it is important that we get a good showing. Please email the AIPA offices if you can attend.

I havent read all of the above, so apologies if it has already been mentioned, but apparently Jetstar are also trying to crew 5 A320's in Oz with contract crew, bypassing the EBA!!!

This is our chance..lets take it. Perhaps we could take note of the following (my bold)...

"...'when the CEO's of Delta, Air France and KLM signed a Joint Venture Protocol with their respective pilots unions..........The pilot groups mentioned above also spoke of an agreement to further develop relationships and to share information..........no pilot group benefits at the expense of the other, and this agreement helps establish a level of trust and cooperation between the parties....Pilot unity is essential in understanding where other groups sit and understanding their concerns...'

cheers

Slasher

12th Aug 2010, 17:35

teresa green Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: gold coast QLD australia Age: 72 Posts: 566

As a 89er, can I beg, plead, cajole,...

You blokes cannot allow what happened in 89....

Dont waste your breath mate. Everybody knew back then the Oz airline industry was going to become a hell-hole and the only surprise was that it took 12 years more than what we thought. In 89 I recall going blue in the face trying to explain whats gonna happen if the Fat Man and Jimmy Bow-Tie and the Silver Bodgie get there way and I was virtualy jeered and ridiculed at by these (then) upcoming kids. McCarthy and the Feds got ditto as well.

So the full bloodey circle has come around huh? So be it - its up them now to sort out there own frigging mess and has realy nothing to do with us. Personaly I believe its a totaly unwinnable situation as the precidents are well and truley cemented.

Sui generis TG.

Baldnfat

12th Aug 2010, 23:58

J*, V, T and other "low cost carriers" are facing the facts that to operate any business you need at least 2 key ingredients.

1. A sound business plan.

2. People working for you that are satisfied that they are reaching their set goals.

The data that has already been collected overseas shows that there is no such thing as a safe low cost carrier.

Gotta go and dump some shares.

fender

13th Aug 2010, 00:00

I for one will attend the meeting and am pleased to see some unity being generated at last in our profession.
We can no longer lay idle, anesthetized by the bull$#!t spin dealt us by these trolls who deal in fear, telling us the world will stop spinning less you dig deeper to get yourself out of the hole you are digging.

teresa green

13th Aug 2010, 00:39

Slasher, this is a whole new ball game mate. We had a Prime Minister who answered to developers, the present bunch are too busy watching their own backs to worry about you lot, and you can safely say the pilots of 89 and their pay claim, regardless if you agreed with it or not, was the start of enterprise bargaining, which is the norm these days. What I DON"T want to see are the AIPA and the AFAP frightened to have a go because of us, the companies will continue to heap sh#t on you whilst you have that attitude, and us, the 89ers, hope to see you unite under one banner and stick it too them. While we are certainly irelevent these days, (or many of us are) it was us blokes (yes I was on the AFAP committee) who fought to get pilots, good wages (I was earning less than my neighbour who serviced phone lines) got the bid lines going, got good accomodation for our crews (the companies would have us share a room if they could) and no I don't think we were bloody hero's for doing it, it was a privilege to battle some of these bastards, but it should not stop now, speak up, you live in a democracy, use it, it is not a forgone conclusion as you suggest, only if you allow it to be..:=

FGD135

13th Aug 2010, 00:41

Where will the money to finance the improved T&Cs come from?

It can only come from one place: the travelling public.

Will they happily pay more for their tickets? Generally speaking, NO. Like any other commodity, the greater its cost, the less of it that will be sold.

As airfares increase, the less affordable air travel becomes.

With less of the public travelling by air, the number of aircraft and pilots required will be less.

This means that planes will have to go into storage and their pilots will have to find other employment.

It's that simple.

Look at it another way: There are many, many times more pilots (and planes) these days than there were 20 years ago. This is because air travel is many, many times more affordable than 20 years ago.

Pilots (and flight attendants, engineers, managers) must expect that their T&Cs (and lifestyle) will be many, many times worse than it was 20 years ago.

When are you guys going to realise that commercial air travel has been on this course since the 1920's?

Think you can change that course?

h.o.t.a.s.

13th Aug 2010, 01:08

FDG135,

When are you going to comprehend that this is not about improving pay?? The responses to your posts have explained this if you'd been bothered to read them.

It is about preventing the erosion of what we already have, and preventing organisations circumventing Australian employment and aviation standards through the setting up of offshore entities.

FGD135

13th Aug 2010, 01:15

When are you going to comprehend that this is not about improving pay??

It is about MONEY. Any kind of improvement to your conditions costs MONEY.

Having to only employ Australian pilots, for example, whilst having no effect on your salary, costs your airline more MONEY.

ANY change to ANY provision in your working conditions (if to your benefit) will cost your employer more MONEY. This money has to come from the public.

Tidbinbilla

13th Aug 2010, 01:27

This thread is drifting off course. It is not about improving conditions.

It is about keeping jobs in Australia, and what airlines are doing to circumvent it.

Please get back to the topic: Off-shoring by Australian airlines.

mcgrath50

13th Aug 2010, 01:28

FGD, I ask again, what is your solution? Stand by and watch while our jobs are outsourced?

The idea that Australians can't compete with cheap Asian labour is ridiculous, off the top of my head, Aussie made cars (which would surely cost more to make) still sell well, in fact many people buy Falcons/Commodores etc. because they are Aussie made! I remember as a kid you flew an Australian airline because it was crewed by Australians, yes they were simplier times but the customer loyalty lost during the Dixon years didn't help. We can compete AND hold our T&Cs.

As I say FGD, what do you think we should do?

CaptCloudbuster

13th Aug 2010, 01:41

Would someone post the offending FSO so we can all see for ourselves what all the fuss is about?

Mr. Hat

13th Aug 2010, 02:53

By the sounds of my Jetstar colleagues this latest stunt could be costing big dollars. They're pissing off the entire pilot group not just a faction this time.

For those that fear strikes 89, fear not as pilots have learned and will not repeat the mistakes of the past. These days the results come out in fuel costs and poor otp results. In some extreme cases people start not accepting working on days off or extending duties. All 100% legal its their choice.

So for every dollar saved on sneaky industrial chess $10 is lost in fuel etc. Pilots are generally deep down pro company, tolerant and professional. We put up with a lot but I think we're about to see that come to an abrupt end.

There's only so much juice you can squeeze out of the aviation orange!

lunars

13th Aug 2010, 03:32

Hope and pray that we all can stand together in this matter for our country ,our future and the profession which we all love so dearly.

I dont know how its going to end as the likes of AJ,BB have the cunning to fool all of us in many ways.
The fellow servants of them like SW,MDP,DK,RG
Then the Ops like MR,CM,AS,CW,MM and the clown :mad: M bell bell bell.
The only good one is the lady SC.

many Good ones who could not take the BS have left and back to Line.

cont

lunars

13th Aug 2010, 03:41

Fellow pilots
I just heard this from my friend about a pilot recently got selected to join Jetstar.He has done his induction through this so called third party and got through the selection and signed the Jetstar contract .Some how after a week jetstar called him and ended the contract .
The reason given that he has an Full Australian ATPL and they dont want that.................
Can someone tell me can they do these kinds of things to pilots
Is this because they have to pay him as per the EBA about 85K if they keep him because he has an ATPL.
this make me believe that they want cheap labour
now if they have come with the ACP cadet but the are finding that they will have to pay because most of them have ATPL...
can some one enlighten on this

Baldnfat

13th Aug 2010, 03:42

None taken 1a

Sorry to add to the drift Tid

My Dad began learning to fly in the late fifties/early sixties. I started official lessons (still learning every time I go up) in the middle of 89 in company with one of the pilots union lawyers at the time. So I also got to know a bit about what our "glorified bus drivers" (such a sign of respect from the old silver shagger) went through.

If we all stop for a moment and think about the advances in technology since 1989 and how we (in no particular order of importance)as pilots,engineers,cabin crew,ground crew, etcetera, etcetera have benefited from some and suffered because of others, the "light may come on" as to how we as a group can prevent the Off-shoring by Australian Airlines.

When I consider the outcome of j*s parent company and the last effort at outsourcing maintenance to an overseas country (remember the old oxy bottle through the cabin and out of the fuselage trick) and how so many passengers (by pure a##e) lived to tell the story to the grandkids, I wonder what part of Q's former leaders example AJ missed.

I really can't afford to miss the meeting on the 23rd. I think every member of the Australian travelling public (if they choose to) should get to view it streamed live via the internet as well. The cost of setting up the IT stuff needed for such an event is one that I am happy to donate 10AUD ( receipt required) to AFAP or whoever sets it up. I will not be flying or instructing in theory on the 23rd.

I only have 1 question.

If all of the registered over 18 year olds in this country can vote on the 21st. Why hold such and important meeting on the 23rd? :confused:

Roj approved

13th Aug 2010, 04:06

Hello Everyone,

I work for the offending (offensive?) airline.

I recently returned from a stint O/S after losing my job in Aus.

I have been flying with 200hr "foreign" pilots in a Modern Jet.

I came home because Australia is the place I want to be.

I am concerned with the CEO's plans.

I want to keep Australian jobs for Australians.

I implore all pilots from Flying school Grade 3's & CHTR guys/gal's to the airline C&Ter's (of all the airlines) and everyone in between to stand together on this one.

But most importantly, read A.Le Rhones post #70 of this thread. (I don't know how to do a link or quote.)

Then have a search of A320/B737/A330/B777 opportunities worldwide. Why would our "Foreign" friends take a job in Australia, or SIN for that matter, with an Australian entity (or offshore company) paying well below the going rate, in countries with high cost of living and no accommodation assistance?

There is more money being offered elsewhere. China anyone??

This is CEO spin. :yuk: Don't buy into it. Let's preserve our rights and conditions.

See you on the 23rd.

breakfastburrito

13th Aug 2010, 04:13

lunars, I have posted an explanation about the logic behind cadets v's ATPL holders here (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/419883-jetstar-interview.html#post5801290). You could also do a search on my previous posts, I have documented this issue in several other posts.

piston broke again

13th Aug 2010, 04:27

I suspect there'll be a lot more interest in the next few hours after the VB rosters come out. Let's hope we all jump on board.

myshoutcaptain

13th Aug 2010, 05:40

I'll be there.

Let's stick together.

WB Bach

13th Aug 2010, 06:27

Anyone with any doubts of the consequences of FSO 136, please look at Christchurch. We DON'T want what's been trialled there to be rolled out in Australia. Pilots working together, doing the same job on the same aircraft, on the same routes - on terms and conditions a hundred miles apart. Before you know it, the group on the bottom of the barrel T & C's gets larger and larger while the EBA body shrinks away through natural attrition.
FSO 136 IS MERELY TO INTRODUCE THE J* CHRISTCHURCH TRIAL INTO AUSTRALIA - IT SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED THERE AND WE DON'T WANT IT IN OZ

Mr. Hat

13th Aug 2010, 06:32

Have a look at what teachers have achieved people. I'm envious, I really am.

Set your alarm clock - time to wake up.

lunars

13th Aug 2010, 06:39

Guys have a look
Will AJ and BB will agree to T and C less than what they are getting now

What about the other mangement guys and girls for that matter
No they wont .......

They woont take a penny less ...

Why should You and I have to do it

Even the guy who drives the truck at the airport live a better life with the T and Cs

The reason they have been doing this to Pilots because theyknew how to spilt us and they knew wer are not united

Come on Aussie come lets get behind and be united for all of us Show that we can be united.come on come on lets so it

ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL
LETS BE UNITED
GUYS FOR ONCE IN OUR HISTORY

GADRIVR

13th Aug 2010, 06:49

OK...lets try this another way.
Could we all put down our bugles, stop flexing our muscled forearms as we wave the red banner, try focusing on somebody directly behind us rather than on the hordes of barbarions (that exist slightly out of shot) and listen carefully.
The reason that this situation exists is NOT (see..I don't shout as loud!!) because of 1989...in general.
The reason you blokes are in this pickle is because of what happened back in the GA days.
The ****ty times are already upon us underlings in the real world and have been since before WW2.
Supporting a bunch of airline drivers who traditionally haven't supported me and the other GA drivers who are remaining in this sector ,doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the big scheme of things.
If you lot had treated the GA sector as a legitimate career when you were here... you wouldn't be in this position now.
Thoughts people?
Regards,
Drivr

peuce

13th Aug 2010, 06:56

GADRIVER,

Observation from the outside ....
You are still looking at what was, instead of what might be.

There's two alternatives:

You never intend to get an Airline job ...then either feel bitter and sulk in the corner; or attend the meeting and ensure that your current GA concerns are considered by the group
You do intend to get an Airline job. Well, you'd be mad not to attend to ensure that the best T&Cs are available when you get there.

Ultralights

13th Aug 2010, 07:38

The RAAus has over 10,000 memebers, how many GA pilots are there? how many staff associated with all airline ops?

I think we are all barking up the wrong tree.

I think this meeting should be the birth of the "Australian Aerospace Party"

it worked for the shooting community, and the outdoors community....

as a political party, we would get a far more sympathetic ear from those in a position to influence aviation policy.

no to mention the green environmental vote with a advertising campaign comparing Noise/pollution associated with airport ops as opposed to a new freeway/rail/industrial development. the amount of fuel PER PASSENGER MILE compared to car and rail. considering AIR does not require the construction of infrastructure along the entire length of its routes, im sure the environmental damage caused by the construction of long distance rail networks has never been considered.
Less airport/less aircraft means More trucks, more congestion
etc etc.

just a thought...

fender

13th Aug 2010, 08:15

Gadrvr,
You make a valid point, lots of bravado, and muscle flexing but that is where we as pilots fall down.
We are so well trained to think logically and outside the square in our jobs but get too passionate, (guilty as charged), when it comes to our carriers. Is it possible for AIPA to look for support from the international pilot associations?
This FSO has far reaching implications!

Q4NVS

13th Aug 2010, 09:15

Just a Question...

Why is there this repeated reference to "Foreign Pilots"? AFAIK you still need the right to Live and Work in OZ/NZ.

Are Australians returning home considered "Foreign Pilots" then...

shortshortz

13th Aug 2010, 09:16

How do we go about increasing the award minimum wage? Given all airlines have paid more than that for years, could that not be a case.

lunars

13th Aug 2010, 09:31

Guys lets put all the mistakes we have made in the past many many years.
As humans we make mistakes

LETS GET IT RIGHT THIS TIME
LETS STICK TOGETHER
LETS NOT PICK ON EACH OTHER
LETS SHOW SOME UNITY
LETS GET WHAT WE DESERVE FOR OUR PROFESSION

LETS GET A FAIR DEAL
LETS BE HONEST
COMEON AUSSIE COMEON....
WHATS ABOUT OUR TRADITION
GIVE EVERYONE A FAIR GOOOO....

Thai997

13th Aug 2010, 10:46

Q4NVS,

There are two "foreigner" scenarios to consider here....

1) The Aussie ex-pat returning home...... He/She would have the right to live and work in Australia so could be brought back to work in Australia on a cheaper contract basis.

Not so bad, but would be better if they came back onto our terms and conditions....

However, the more serious one.....

2) The Australian aircraft (VH registered, on JQ Australian AOC) "based" overseas that does the majority of its flying out of Australia. (Assume JQ base a 787 in Manilla. This aircraft is crewed by Phillipino crew who live in Manilla. It operates a 21 day pattern of flying that goes something like this: MNL-SYD-AKL-SYD-HNL-SYD-NRT-SYD-MEL-SIN-AKL-SYD-MNL etc etc). These crew do not need the right to live or work in Australia. They are simply foreign crew passing through. (They do require a CASA licence which im sure would only be a rubber stamp).

Scenario 2 is whats essentially planned for the next two A330's, except the base is Singapore. How long until they find another Asian country that is cheaper ? THIS IS THE SCENARIO WE MUST FIGHT TO AVOID

Jetstar is only doing what they are allowed to do by exploiting various grey areas of immigration laws, work laws and aviation regulation.

If you were Reg youd probably do the same. Maybe we should make the pollies aware of whats going on, and where it is potentially leading.

See you there !

WB Bach

13th Aug 2010, 12:27

Thai997

Too late ! Already happening !

J* NZ on the peanuts pay operate CHC-SYD-NAN-SYD-CHC

teresa green

13th Aug 2010, 12:56

Then of course you could play Dick Smiths sustainable population theory, unlike the average aussie family of 2 kids and one dog/cat, foreign pilots could come from some countries where it is normal to have 30 rellies living with you, sooooo 100 foreign pilots with 30 rellies each, mmm, this could cause Smith to go into meltdown! Tongue in cheek of course, but gee I would like to see you blokes and girls get this on a roll, the reality is it won't be long before the flood gates open, though you have to ask, where does immigration come into all this, if there is no shortage of Australian pilots, why would they be allowed in? You cannot front the govt, saying, well we just want cheaper labor, so if you don't mind old chap, sign this, even with the resident ratbags we have in there now, surely its not that easy.

shortshortz

13th Aug 2010, 13:39

Employers are becoming avaricious; all they care about is the bottom line. Cost cutting can not jeopardise good will, $200 to get somewhere has to get you there safely. They need to be convinced that cost cutting will affect safety. They are trying to attract and retain the best talent, how can they justify paying others a lot less money and not absolutely guarantee it won’t affect safety... quite simply they can’t and this will play on their minds. Run with it......

Johnny_56

13th Aug 2010, 14:24

Hi guys,

Have only just noticed this thread - maybe someone could put a link on the GA section.

Good luck for the meeting, i'm in WA so won't be there but wish i was.

I'm currently in GA working my way up slowly, and will probably be on the end of one of these 'new' contracts in the future. It is heartening to hear of guys willing to put their hands up to secure what hopefully will be my future at some stage. I personally appreciate it.

The idea of the airlines is that they offer better terms/conditions/money than your typical GA job, but the more time passes it seems it's headed the other way.

If i/we in GA can do anything please let us know.

Good luck

Baldnfat

13th Aug 2010, 19:49

Still got that blue note warm in my pocket to put towards the fight.
Anyone know some media type that could leave the Ranga alone for a while and get busy setting up the filluming?

Lets see, $10 times XXXXX contributions = not a bad starting point for a fighting fund.:ok: An investment in our countries (and others) future safety.

The excess contributions subtracted from the cost of putting on the webcast (if invested wisely, ie. don't but any Q shares) could keep the fighting fund going for the next (bend over boys and girls it's time to try out your next j* T&C's) at some point in the future.

No surprises that it already got up in Unzed. :mad: kiwis would skin their own grandmother with a dull butter knife to put an aussie out of work.

Don't want to predict anything on PPrune, but what's the bet that the first J* A320 to spear in is crewed by drivers on that agreement.

If one of my relatives is involved AJ you can hide all of your gold as hard as you like back in Ireland. I will not stop until I have the very last gram!

Off to work:)

Fruet Mich

13th Aug 2010, 22:15

Yep, I totally see that!! Kiwis will crash an A320 because they are paid less!! Baldnfat you do realise there are a heap of us Aussies on that contract yeah ?Yep pretty much sums up why we are all in this mess. It's time to come together instead of slagging our sheep shagging neighbours off! Comments like that will never bring our pilot profession together. Just remember we sat by when the kiwis were crying for help with these ridiculous T&Cs being offered over there and laughed! Something about "cutting our nose off" We were warned it'll end up affecting us but as Aussies we seem to be more reactive than proactive.

Anyway, back to the thread, stand together boys and girls. BB and AJ are not long term industry people, they are CEO's. Spat out of the modern day university "how to make money 101" they will wreck this industry of ours and then walk away to another industry and wreck that. It's called capitalism. How to get rich quick as a CEO, at the expense of everyone under you.

Bond together and speak and think with intelligence. Make ourselves heard and unite! The kiwis didn't start this bloody mess, we did and we need to take ownership of that. I personally know a few Aussies skinning their cat as well as their nanna fir a job in Singapore flying an a340 on ****e T&Cs. Will they be the first to spud one of those in??

Blue-Footed Boobie

13th Aug 2010, 22:16

Baldnfat

'Don't want to predict anything on PPRuNe, but what's the bet that the first J* A320 to spear in is crewed by drivers on that agreement.'

Then don't.

Wasn't it an Australian based crew that was texting their mobile phone and forgot to put the gear down recently??

Meeting August 23rd

peuce

13th Aug 2010, 23:43

Can I play devil's advocate for a moment? I'm sure there will be much more difficult questions coming from the Press in due course, but here's mine:

What is the difference between BHP (which I assume is still Australian owned?) having staff, who do most of their work in, say, China, being employed on Chinese wages, although they often do trips to Australia on Company business?

404 Titan

14th Aug 2010, 00:10

peuce

The big difference is that BHP-Billiton (which is actually a multi-national and isn’t majority Australian owned) employs non Australians in other countries like China to comply with local labour laws. They aren’t doing it in a cynical attempt to bypass Australian EBA’s and Australian laws like Jetstar are with Singapore based cockpit crew flying Australian registered aircraft through Australian skies on Australian licences obtained through exemptions of dodgy foreign licences from the Philippines.

peuce

14th Aug 2010, 03:10

Okay ... beginning to get the picture ...

Therefore, in theory, if this exercise progresses to it's ultimate conclusion ... and the majority of pilots flying Australian Airlines, in and through Australia, live in, and are covered by and subject to, another Country's industrial system and culture ... the question of me being able to confidently get my flight out of Brisbane on any particular day may depend on the status of, say, the Phillipine's political environment at that time?

The Australian Government has got to be pretty happy with that?

ManillaChillaDilla

14th Aug 2010, 03:55

Unfortunately this management mob have the runs on the board in the past. I think they may however, have bitten off a little more than they can chew this time.

I would hate to be in their shoes now. The upcoming road shows will be a blood bath for those flight ops types that slither into the crew rooms. :=

Great to see this type of unity for once. :D

As for these "managers " :rolleyes: get ready for an interesting time indeed.

1a sound asleep

14th Aug 2010, 04:35

quote "Anyway, back to the thread, stand together boys and girls. BB and AJ are not long term industry people, they are CEO's. Spat out of the modern day university "how to make money 101" they will wreck this industry of ours and then walk away to another industry and wreck that"

The real blame is on the likes of Tiger/Air AsiaX. Sub standard operators that are allowed into this country. Airlines need to be charging more for airfares to make a profit and pay staff accordingly.

I would be asking the Government how many hours does an Air ASIAX A330 FO have? What about the busting of altitude on the approach to OOL

Fight this on safety. Fighting this on your needs wont get any sympathy

CASA needs to tighten up

lunars

14th Aug 2010, 07:02

lets keep going guys
stick as a team and lets all play our part for the greater good of our aviation and future
its for everyone of us who flies in RA,GA,Regional,Airline.

I heard this today that Jetstar have taken expereinced First officers A320 and then told them they dont have a job...... because they have enough pilots at the moment.

These are Australian guys coming back after flying in Asia for some time.
this is truly amazing as I thought you put people who have experience flying the Planes.

where is this going to end .ONLY WHEN AN ACCIDENT HAPPENS??????
By the time it will be too late......................

The likes of BB and his clans should not be allowed to do this .......

Lets stick together...
lets fight the good fight
lets look after each other

Roller Merlin

14th Aug 2010, 08:35

"Sound asleep" is wide awake on this one!

The battle must be fought on the basis of safety. The cynical general public have an attention span of 2 seconds when it comes to how people are employed and what they are paid. But when they hear about their own safety they are all ears and vote with their dollars.

The Safety belief is the QF (hence JQ) commercial mainstay. It is the line in the sand for everything we are discussing - and the primary interest of all the stakeholders - JQ/QF management, CASA, pilot standards, media interest, insurance companies, friends and relatives, stock market, tourism operators, politicians..... they all must perceive the threat and how it will affect them (especially in an election period). Sound safety standards will be eroded - this should be our mantra and message to the world.

Ultimately it will be the safety message that bring commercial pressure to bear.

Clockwork Doll

14th Aug 2010, 08:45

RE: Roj approved

I work for the offending (offensive?) airline.

I recently returned from a stint O/S after losing my job in Aus.

I have been flying with 200hr "foreign" pilots in a Modern Jet.

I came home because Australia is the place I want to be.

I am concerned with the CEO's plans.

I want to keep Australian jobs for Australians.

Let me see if I have this straight...
You have returned from working overseas and now that you are back you want to ensure that all positions for pilots in Australia go to Australian pilots??? Do you fail to see the hypocrasy of this ethic? You have no issue going overseas and taking a job away from a foreign pilot but you aren't willing to have a foreign pilot come to Australia? I've always realised that as a group you aren't the sharpest tools in the shed but this really does boggle the mind! :confused: By all means please explain your logic - I look forward to hearing how you justify such blatant double standards for yourself and the hundreds of other Australian pilots who have taken positions overseas. No doubt there is a very special pilot logic that as a mere mortal I am failing to grasp. I am sure that the explanation will be worth the wait :D

27/09

14th Aug 2010, 09:04

Clockwork Doll

You are are new here aren't you? Your ignorance of what's going on stands out like dog bollocks.

Those pilots that went off overseas took jobs at the going rate in that country, they did not under cut the locals to get those jobs. The vast majority of these pilots got the jobs they did because there were not enough locals to do the job. This is not what is going on here.

In the case of Jetstar

1. There are enough appropriately qualified local pilots to fly these aircraft.

2. The wages being paid to the "imports" undercut those paid to locals.

3. The whole thing is being done in an underhand manner to get around the local immigarion rules.

As you mentioned many of us pilots aren't Einstiens and this is not "very special pilot logic"

I trust you have the mental acuity to understand what is actually going on.

Clockwork Doll

14th Aug 2010, 09:22

You are are new here aren't you? Your ignorance of what's going on stands out like dog bollocks.

Those pilots that went off overseas took jobs at the going rate in that country, they did not under cut the locals to get those jobs.

I may be new here but I am not new to the industry.

Australian pilots going overseas to fly for low cost carriers did reduce the terms and conditions of legacy carriers in those countries. If you do not know this then I suggest that it is you whose ignorance stands out like dogs...

27/09

14th Aug 2010, 09:36

OK then Clockwork Doll,

I think you are being a little disingenious with your argument now.

Since you are so well informed, tell us;

Did the pilots that you speak of take jobs off the locals and get paid less than the locals did for doing the same job?

Were they employed in an underhand/devious manner to get around the immigration rules?

404 Titan

14th Aug 2010, 10:30

27/09

I suspect Clockwork Doll is a management mole. New handle gives him away like dogs balls. This is the “modus operandi” of management to try and divide and conquer. We have seen it done to death and quite frankly it is getting boring. Just ignore him/her. The fact is most Aussie pilots that have gone overseas to work don’t work for LCC’s period. We generally work for full service carriers in countries that don’t have a ready supply of their own pilots and are therefore forced to employ foreign pilots. This thread is about Aussie pilots working in Australia and any distraction brought up by the likes of Clockwork Doll is just that a distraction to try and divide you.

Everyone please be on the lookout for moles like this that will post here distracting arguments to try and divide you. This is management SOP to divide and conquer. Please ignore them and above all STAY FOCUSSED.

Angle of Attack

14th Aug 2010, 11:14

The good thing is there is a common thread now, Virgin being shat over by Bluebird, QF by Jetconnect, Jetstar (well its been a consistent shat over since they started) , the main thing is you realise stupid management live to shat you over! Its pretty simple really. anyone who trusts management these days deserves to be shat over. I remember in the good times lots of employees and co workers raving about their employers, even then I waited for the shat to commence! by the way I said shat with the a representing an i so it wouldnt be censored!

PS I am in WA during the meeting I cant make it unless I go sick! :}

teresa green

14th Aug 2010, 11:18

Why does the word S#@B and CLOCKWORK DOLL come into my head at the same time? AS a 89er, let me tell you what to expect. You will get the weak, you will get the brown noser, you will get the sneerer, you will get the one who bats for both sides, (depending who he or she is with) But if you stick together you are UNBEATABLE, UNITED YOU STAND, DIVIDED YOU FALL, DONT EVER FORGET IT. This is your chance to stand together, pilots all of you, company irrelevent, don't let the bastards bring you down, you live in a democracy, use it, and don't let what happen to us, happen to you, YOU TAKE CONTROL, THERE ARE THREE GROUPS THAT CAN BRING THIS COUNTRY TO A GRINDING HALT. (1) PILOTS (2)TRUCKIES (3) TRAINDRIVERS we have all seen the consequences of that, and the results are dreadful, but instead of worrying about 89 and what could happen, YOU ARE POWERFUL PEOPLE, don't abuse it, but use it, if what is going on is wrong, then flex your muscles, TOGETHER, companies then have to listen, as does govts. THIS IS YOUR CHANCE, GO FOR IT!

xjt

14th Aug 2010, 11:27

if only everybody could use such logic...but unfortunately there are way too many naive and "S'**B types out there.....

The Voice

14th Aug 2010, 11:29

sadly, I see A. Le Rhone's prediction has come true ..

Clockwork Doll

14th Aug 2010, 11:48

I suspect Clockwork Doll is a management mole.

Pssssst AJ

I think they're on to us!
Request reinforcements - stat.

BB

The Professor

14th Aug 2010, 19:53

Wow, socialism is on the rise.

I trust none of the "workers" on this thread wear clothing manufactured in Vietnam or shoes manufactured in Thailand. That would be hypocrisy.

This meeting will do little more than highlight to all involved just how many competing agendas there are amongst pilots.

It will be a hoot.

Fruet Mich

14th Aug 2010, 21:29

Pssst clockwork doll, just remember mate, we can do your job overnight, it'll take at least a year for you to do ours and then I expect you'll be a gimp. Supply and demand mate, plain and simple. Countries don't have enough pilots, Aussies get hired. Not the case here. We have truckloads of pilots. So why hire from outside? To sort T&Cs.

Stick together people!!

A. Le Rhone

14th Aug 2010, 21:33

I was concerned this thread would degenerate into slagging and so far it hasn't really, which has to be a first!

The essential point remains the same: Experienced, quality, Professional Pilots are globally in shorter supply now than ever before - although in Aus we can't see that because traditionally we have more supply here than demand. It is time that reality was used to our advantage because god knows the flip-side has been used against us by ruthless managers for many years.

Airlines globally for years have loved Aussie pilots because they have high operational standards and by and large assimilate reasonably well. They usually imbue the airline with strict operating skills and do not undercut locals by any means, in fact they have often been paid more. There have rarely been double-standards in this regard as stated incorrectly by a new-poster here. Foreign airlines either simply couldn't get enough locals or realised that the extra expense of hiring expensive expatriates had other operational benefits.

What JQ are trying is a new low. It comes from the concept that a "Pilot" is a commodity like say a hamburger - as long as they have a licence then seen one seen them all. Why as an airline manager can't I just go and buy a cheap commodity from say the Philippines or Botswana. As that manager I can also harness the 'politically correct' theme to suggest anybody who opposes my plan is just racist and that "you greedy Aussie pilots are just featherbedding" (although what exactly you're featherbedding I don't know because globally speaking Aussie T&C aren't so good, but probably still better than Botswana).

But not all pilots are the same. Be it politically correct or not, pilots from many countries just aren't trained to the same standards as others - that's not racism but just fact. I've personally flown with folks of so many different nationalities and from all over the world and they have almost to a man been great but they have all had proper training and employ strict operating discipline. They wouldn't have got into the airline without it and they weren't employed just because they had a licence.

And now most of these guys are in the likes of Emirates or Ethihad etc and doing well and good on them. Before the GFC airlines were desperate for pilots and even pilots from countries with sometimes questionable safety records (e.g. Indonesia and the Eastern Bloc) were being snapped-up by hungry low-cost carriers to the degree that flag-carriers (like PAL) were complaining that they were being bled-dry of pilots and would have to cancel flights - interestingly this has again happened just last week.

So back to our scenario and how it is fought. The Colgan case proved that an accident forced US Congress to legislate against unscrupulous airline managers employing lowly-experienced aircrews because they are unsafe. That must be one basis of our stance.

The other basis needs to be handled more discretely and that is that many licence-issuing countries just don't have the same standards as we do here. Yes pilots here have texted and messed-up A320 missed-approaches but on the whole standards are still way better than so many other countries and airlines. For short-sighted managers to go and gobble-up pilots from those countries (which as discussed previously is really just a tactic to try to pay lower wages and thus get themselves bigger and bigger bonuses) would be a direct threat to the Australian traveling public. This needs to be illustrated.

And the best PR winner in this regard is the Garuda 737 prang that killed the Aussie journalists. Even the government at the time stated that other countries don't have the same standards as we do. It's a fact and can be used to our benefit.

And finally, although I am aware I sound totally paranoid, as an 89'er I would have to beware of trolls on sites such as PPRuNe. Social networking has become such a powerful tool but in this case posts are anonymous. What better way for a full-time industrial relations person to undermine new-found pilot unity than spend a quick 5 mins on a site such as this feeding in seeds of doubt to undermine a timid and nervous group who have clearly had enough but aren't united.

That of course doesn't mean differing ideas should be howled down with tirades of childish abuse as is so often sadly the case but it does mean we need to be a little observant. Your unity is not something that airline managers want and their bonuses are directly impacted by this.

Think of the big picture and take advantage of the global pilot shortage and the fact that Aussie pilots are a sought-after commodity. Convert bitching energy into something tangible and you are on a winner.

Once again I apologise for taking so many lines to get my longwinded point across.

rj27

14th Aug 2010, 23:52

I can't make the meeting either but support the endeavour to stop the rot. It would be a great day to see the reps from all unions and airlines standing side by side- A real turning point in aviation. Hopefully the media turn up to promote the issues our industry face. Best of luck.

ratpoison

15th Aug 2010, 00:04

REG, you will rue the day you woke up all smug and released this FSO. You have f***ed over your employees for the last time. Let's all hope this brings about your downfall. What is even more appalling is that their own Chief Pilot and Standards Manager support Reg's actions.

mattyj

15th Aug 2010, 00:21

You don't get to be Chief Pilot or Standards Manager for nothing!

psycho joe

15th Aug 2010, 00:44

... What is even more appalling is that their own Chief Pilot and Standards Manager support Reg's actions.

Therein lies the problem. Plus the AFAP has no real technical objection.

I'm all for unity, but considering that everyone is in universal agreement that outsourcing our jobs is unacceptable, what exactly does anyone hope to acheive by this meeting?

Will the media be present? Will politicians be present? Does this meeting have the union backing required to educate the aforementioned and provide financial and logistical clout needed to mount a campain against this evil?

At this time, during an election campain, every union, association, and two bit lobby group with an agenda is advertising like hell to gain public attention and political favour. So during this golden oportunity, where is our lobby group, union or association? Where is the advertising campain? The silence is deafening. :ugh:

Again I applaude the sentiment here, but the fact is that unless management pilots and the AFAP management get behind this then it'll be like p!ssing into the wind.:(

Ps. Happy to be called a pissant as long as someone comes up with an adequate word for those few individuals who are supposed to represent the many, that have the power to effect change, but have already decided there will be no action. :yuk:

1a sound asleep

15th Aug 2010, 01:04

"Again I applaude the sentiment here, but the fact is that unless management pilots and the AFAP management get behind this then it'll be like p!ssing into the wind.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif"

Exactly correct

FGD135

15th Aug 2010, 03:18

What JQ are trying is a new low.
Not really. This is about making flying cheaper for the public. Airlines have been doing this since the 1920s.

And the best PR winner in this regard is the Garuda 737 prang that killed the Aussie journalists.
You'll have to do better than that. Aussie pilots make mistakes and have accidents too. If you think you can just point to one or two foreign accidents to make your case then you have lost before you have begun.

I agree that pilot standards depend largely on where the pilot was trained and flew but it is not fellow pilots that you are making your pitch to. For this "campaign" to have any success, it must have some appeal to the general public (via the media).

I respectfully suggest that you need to put more work into the case.

What is even more appalling is that their own Chief Pilot and Standards Manager support Reg's actions.
I think you fail to understand the role of these individuals. Their role has nothing to do with industrial relations or protecting aussie jobs.

Their concerns would be about the standards of the foreign pilots - but at the same time, would be strongly of the belief that the checking and training system will weed out those unsuitable.

WB Bach

15th Aug 2010, 03:43

Matter of Principle Here (Being missed by some)

You should not have any two people, in the same country, doing the same job in every way, but on different terms and conditions.

No member of the public would support this.
No politician would support this.
No Australian should support this !
Why our chief pilot supports it, I don't know?

This is not about more money, but maintaining what we have.

Two tier terms and conditions is simply wrong !

Don't let it come to Australia, and get rid of it in Christchurch NZ !

Dark Knight

15th Aug 2010, 03:45

Their concerns would be about the standards of the foreign pilots - but at the same time, would be strongly of the belief that the checking and training system will weed out those unsuitable.In a word `HorseSh!te'

Read the history of what happened during a certain Australian aviation episode previously mentioned above.

magicbox

15th Aug 2010, 03:54

I think you fail to understand the role of these individuals. Their role has nothing to do with industrial relations or protecting aussie jobs.

Maybe, maybe not?

They are in essence an extension of the management arm and in this case complete puppets. The strings are being pulled from above and without any sort of backbone will continue to flail about in the direction they are told.

If anything they should be helping to support "aussie jobs". Who is to say they are any less expendable than the rest of the crew anyway.

contrails03

15th Aug 2010, 04:05

I wonder if the management and HR jobs could be outsourced to a foreign country. I recon foreign management would do just a good a job and be a hell of a lot cheaper. Imagine how much companies would save!!:E

dodgybrothers

15th Aug 2010, 05:30

The few spineless creatures that were part of the chardonnay set on the 737 at Ansett, that got their 320 ratings as the house was falling down around them at the expense of their fellow pilots, are now the ones saying that this deal is good for the Jetstar Australian pilots. They have the ability to stop it but they refuse due to their bonuses and their desires to please their masters and climb the pole.
I can actually understand the desire of CEOs and COOs who have only have a penchant to cuts costs and bust unions, but for the gatekeepers that have the ability to stop this, they are the ones where the vitriol should be directed towards.

redned

15th Aug 2010, 06:36

Watch it guys, the 89ers are popping up,giving advice wanting to fight it all over again.They buggered that one up,sent dozens of people broke in the tourist game without a thought for them,and wallow in a we was robbed mind set.Stand together on this honourable cause,but dont listen to some of those clowns

lemel

15th Aug 2010, 10:20

Redneck you my friend are the clown.

It is obvious you don't know what happened in 89. Perhaps your are one of the scabs from 89. I think I can speak for most on this forum when I say opinions like yours are not welcome.

Before you say anything about me, I am was not involved in 89, infact I was just starting school.

woody744

15th Aug 2010, 11:52

As usual, some want to hijack the thread to reopen old wounds.

This thread is about pilot unity and showing your support for one of the most important things when it comes to the future of Australian aviation.

Australian flying, Australian Jobs, Stop the Offshoring

Tell one, tell all, but most importantly be there in person.

hoss

15th Aug 2010, 12:24

Woody, looks like your going to need the big room, the really big room. Apologies I can't make it. Regards hoss

teresa green

15th Aug 2010, 12:30

BS, Redneck, yes we did stuff up big time, but this is not about us, IT IS HISTORY, it is about now. Many of us 89ers now have kids flying, nothing has changed, WE DON'T EVER WANT IT TO HAPPEN TO THEM, OR YOU! Ever since 89 things have changed, pilots have become a bit like the two contenders for the Prime Ministers job, frustrated, angry, fed up, but two scared to rock the boat. And it is because of 89. FORGET BLOODY 89, get some balls and get together and go under one banner, otherwise you blokes and girls will held ransom by the companies forever. Is that what you want, yes, the companies will be out at the meeting with cameras, like they did to us, what are you going to do? wear a burka? No you go up to them and tell them to F$#K off, why? Because if enough of you do the same thing, regardless of company, they are stuffed. I am not a unionist, never voted labor in my life, never will, but for crying out loud, the companies have walked all over you since 89, and now the final insult, foreign pilots, to take your jobs, for less pay, putting the Australian Public at risk, and you lot are going to sit there like a bunch of girls, and let it happen. Am I a angry old man, you betcha, before most of you were born, we were fighting for pilots rights, for a fair wage, for a decent stand down time, for proper accommodation, because before that, they paid us poorly, worked the arse off us, and expected us to share accommodation, absolutely irrelevent now, but the legacy remains, so for those prepared to have a go, onya, for those who remain on the sidelines, with only your own interests at heart, shame, just don't squeal like a stuck pig, when its your turn, and when the flood gates open it will be, go to the meeting, notify the press, get on four Corners, the pollies are too concerned about themselves right now to worry about you lot, grab the chance, get it out there, and have a freckin go, otherwise.................???

Dropt McGutz

15th Aug 2010, 13:33

teresa, that would have to be the best post that I have ever seen on PPRUNE. Everybody better wake up to themselves and get to the meeting.

Transition Layer

15th Aug 2010, 15:03

I'm extremely disappointed I won't be able to make the meeting as I'll be on holidays and not in SYD.

I'd love to be part of any online petition that we might be able to put together to show our support.

United we stand!

Qantas S/O

Charliethewonderdog

15th Aug 2010, 22:19

xjt

15th Aug 2010, 23:24

teresa green , as noted your post not only nails the issue at heart but also shows the intelligence that is generally lacking on these forums and in this industry in general. Working for this mob it seems that the majority are more than happy to sit back and take it. There are some that even say that because it doesn't affect "THEM" they are not worried about it. Actions speak louder than words, and i regret to say that the majority are no willing to act.....makes me kinda think of the the famous forrest gump quote ...."stupid is as stupid does"

let the games begin

Slasher

15th Aug 2010, 23:35

Watch it guys, the 89ers are popping up,giving advice wanting to fight it all over again.

Not in my case Redned. You and your mates can battle your own **** this time. I just sit on the sidelines watching history about to repeat itself with a few diferences but a quite predictable outcome.

Sui generis TG. I hear what you said a few pages ago but I believe the Oz airlines industry is totaly mickey mouse and will be for decades. I feel you should be offering them advice to get the hell out and take a career overseas like plentey of wise kids have done since 2000. I mean why try to rehabilatate and stay marryed to a now pox-infested ugley whore when there are reasonably decent women offshore?

peuce

16th Aug 2010, 00:16

More thoughts from the outside ....
It's a pretty simple equation:

The Company's priority, rightfully, is commercal success ... not the moral high ground
Company policy is not normally changed by righteous indignation from the Staff
Company policy is normally only changed by:

Industrial campaign/action by the Staff
Sustained Righteous indignation from the Public or Government

The ability to be able to provide a WIN-WIN outcome would be a bonus

A. Le Rhone

16th Aug 2010, 00:17

From South East Asia and Far East forum.......Replace the airline SpiceJet and insert JetStar??? Who would have any control?
Miles above in unsafe hands - Economy and Politics - livemint.com (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livemint.com%2F2010%2F08%2F11213359%2FM iles-above-in-unsafe-hands.html&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fsouth-asia-far-east%2F424119-miles-above-unsafe-hands.html)

Quote:
Take for instance New Delhi-based Garima Passi, 21, who went to a pilot training institute called Sabena Flight Academy in Arizona, US, to get her commercial flying licence in 2008.
Passi was expelled after she damaged an aircraft while on a flight and also had a prop strike—an incident in which the propeller of the aircraft hit the runway.

Jim Fendley, a Sabena instructor who flew with her, commented in a 2008 report that Passi was “inconsistent in almost everything” and recommended that she stop training.

“She is not developing flying skills and is afraid she will damage another airplane or hurt herself,” Fendley said in an email to the institute, reviewed by Mint.

Passi joined Sabena through Gurgaon-based United Aviation Consultants Pvt. Ltd. She displayed a “fear of aircraft”, her evaluation report and log book of flying hours show.

“During the evaluation flight, I observed a young pilot who lacks the confidence of a PIC (pilot in command) and a fear of the aircraft,” her second instructor Eliza Wade said in an evaluation report seeking her termination.

At three hearings, Passi defended herself saying, “I am trying” and “I need one more chance” before she was removed from the academy. Passi came back to India and started training in Uttarakhand-based Amber Aviation (India) Pvt. Ltd from where she passed. Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) records show she was granted a commercial pilot’s licence (CPL) within five days of her application on 18 May 2009.
Soon after, she was inducted into low-cost airline SpiceJet Ltd and flies a Boeing 737-800 as a co-pilot. There has been no reported incident involving the pilot during her employment with the airline.

An emailed questionnaire sent to SpiceJet spokeswoman Priti Dey on 21 June did not elicit any response. The airline did not comment despite repeated reminders. The airline’s acting chief executive officer Kishore Gupta said on 27 July that he wasn’t aware of the issue and would revert after inquiring into the matter with a reply by 28 July. He didn’t.

Passi didn’t reply to text messages and calls made to her cellphone. Her father R.S. Passi, director (air safety) at DGCA, said she had to return from the US academy because she hadn’t been keeping good health.

“They said that she had the option to continue in another scheme, but since she was not keeping well, we called her back,” said Passi, who added that his daughter had been selected for the course by Sabena after she went through several tests, including aptitude tests.

He said the pilot wasn’t required to disclose to DGCA the prop strike, which he denied was an accident, while confirming that “something” had taken place. He also denied any conflict of interest in her being employed with SpiceJet, the operations of which he screens in his role with DGCA

breakfastburrito

16th Aug 2010, 03:32

The problems in Aviation stem from the conditions in GA. It's amusing that Pilots are now complaining about conditions at the top when they did nothing for them when they were down the bottom and still dont.
The cancer from GA has slowly spread to The Airlines. With the introduction of cadetships across the board the reliance on GA will further reduce it's importance.
Excellent observation Charlie. I'll go one step further. The mentality since 00/01 in RPT jetland has been "secure the flying, fix the conditions later".
Well, I'm still waiting for those poor souls to have their T&C's improved, It hasn't worked now & it won't work in the future.

Meanwhile operators are claiming "pilot shortage", T&C's conditions decreased. How is that possible in a rational market? Its not, which means one side has acted irrationally (the pilots).

If you are attending this meeting, & hope to improve the situation, understand one thing clearly - Undercutting someone else to secure the flying ALWAYS results in your own conditions been undermined, not improved. Maybe not this year or next, but inevitably in the future. This has been a demonstrable fact over the last ten years.

Operators in general hold nothing but contempt for pilots. As an operator why would you have respect for a group that falls over themselves to "buy a job" or "buy a bigger endorsement".

Everyone needs to have a good hard look at themselves, you either respect the financial/time/effort/family sacrifices & sell your skills for the right price or expect a career that pays less than a cleaner or checkout operator, only with an enormous debt.

Unions & all the big meetings in the world can only help those that help themselves. Your future T&C's are within your own hands, no one else. Each individual must take responsibility for their own actions. Rationalising it away with "if I don't someone else will" has not worked over the last ten years.

It is really that simple, individuals making choices for their long-term benefit, not some short term high. This applies right from the first job in GA, through to the heavies.

breakfastburrito

16th Aug 2010, 04:52

Antill, datal seniority in one tool of many to capture the workforce. My information is that datal seniority in J* & VB is very loosely applied at present anyway.

Lets see how non-datal seniority works within the "j* Group" before concluding it is the sole reason for all ills. In fact, I'll bet that with the merit base system "j* Group", T&C's decline further.

Capt Basil Brush

16th Aug 2010, 06:36

Announced today, 12 upcoming VB Commands cancelled due to PB taking over VB flying.

The routes being taken over have nothing to to do flights out of NZ where PB should belong. They are all flights originating in Aus, and DPS is not even on PB's AOC.

This is costing Australian jobs, as intake courses have been cancelled as well.

Eastmoore

16th Aug 2010, 07:27

Looks like all the VB boys should be attending this meeting also. Virgin might have beaten Jetstar on this one.

Blue-Footed Boobie

16th Aug 2010, 08:23

Some perspective on the GFC and what it is doing to working conditions around the world. The next time an airline claims the GFC as rationale for cutting conditions..

"Crisis. What Crisis? Profits Soar!

By James Petras

August 16, 2010 -- While progressives and leftists write about the “crises of capitalism”, manufacturers, petroleum companies, bankers and most other major corporations on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacific coast are chuckling all the way to the bank.

From the first quarter of this year, corporate profits have shot up between twenty to over a hundred percent, (Financial Times August 10, 2010, p. 7). In fact, corporate profits have risen higher than they were before the onset of the recession in 2008 (Money Morning March 31, 2010). Contrary to progressive bloggers the rates of profits are rising not falling, particularly among the biggest corporations (Consensus Economics, August 12, 2010). The buoyancy of corporate profits is directly a result of the deepening crises of the working class, public and private employees and small and medium size enterprises.

With the onset of the recession, big capital shed millions of jobs (one out of four Americans has been unemployed in 2010), secured give backs from the trade union bosses, received tax exemptions, subsidies and virtually interest free loans from local, state and federal governments.

As the recession temporarily bottomed out, big business doubled up production on the remaining labor force, intensifying exploitation (more output per worker) and lowered costs by passing onto the working class a much larger share of health insurance and pension benefits with the compliance of the millionaire trade union officials. The result is that while revenues declined, profits rose and balance sheets improved (Financial Times August 10, 2010). Paradoxically, the CEO’s used the pretext and rhetoric of “crises” coming from progressive journalists to keep workers from demanding a larger share of the burgeoning profits, aided by the ever growing pool of unemployed and underemployed workers as possible “replacements” (scabs) in the event of industrial action.

The current boom of profits has not benefited all sectors of capitalism: the windfall has accrued overwhelmingly with the biggest corporations. In contrast many middle and small enterprises have suffered high rates of bankruptcy and losses, which has made them cheap and easy prey for buyouts for the ‘big fellows’ (Financial Times August 1, 2010). The crises of middle capital has led to the concentration and centralization of capital and has contributed to the rising rate of profits for the largest corporations.

The failed diagnosis of capitalist crises by the left and progressives has been a perennial problem since the end of World War II, when we were told capitalism was ‘stagnant” and heading for a final collapse. Recent prophets of the apocalypse saw in the 2008-2009 recession the definitive and total crash of the world capitalist system. Blinded by Euro-American ethnocentrism, they failed to note that Asian capital never entered the “final crises” and Latin America had a mild and transient version (Financial Times June 9, 2010, p. 9). The false prophets failed to recognize that different kinds of capitalism are more or less susceptible to crises … and that some variants tend to experience rapid recoveries (Asia-Latin America- Germany) while others (US, England, Southern and Eastern Europe) are more susceptible to anemic and precarious recoveries.

While Exxon-Mobile reaped over 100% growth of profits in 2010 and the auto corporations recorded their biggest profits in recent years, the workers’ wages and living standards declined and state-sector employees suffered harsh cutbacks and massive layoffs. It is clear that the recovery of corporate profit is based on the harshest exploitation of labor and the biggest transfers of public resources to the large private corporations. The capitalist state, with Democratic President Obama in the lead, has transferred billions to big capital via direct bailouts, virtual interest free loans, tax cuts and by pressuring labor to accept lower wages and health and pension givebacks. The White House plan for ‘recovery’ has worked beyond expectations – corporate profits have recovered; “only” the vast majority of workers have fallen deeper into crises.

The progressives’ failed predictions of capitalism’s demise are a result of their underestimation of the extent to which the White House and Congress would plunder the public treasury to resuscitate capital. They underestimated the degree to which capital had been freed to shift the entire burden of profit recovery onto the backs of labor. In that regard, progressive rhetoric about “labor resistance” and the “trade union movement” reflected a lack of understanding that there has been virtually no resistance to the roll back of social and money wages because there is no labor organization. What passes for it is totally ossified and at the service of the Democratic Party’s Wall Street advocates in the White House.

What the current unequal and uneven impact of the capitalist system tells us is that capitalists can overcome crises only by heightening exploitation and rolling back decades of “social gains”. The current process of profit recovery, however, is highly precarious because it is based on exploiting current inventories, low interest rates and cutting labor costs (Financial Times August 10, 2010, p 7). It is not based on dynamic new private investments and increased productive capacity. In other words, these are “windfall gains” - not profits derived from increased sales revenues and expanding consumer markets. How could they be – if wages are declining and unemployment/underemployment/and lost labor is over 22%? Clearly, this short-term profit boom, based on political and social advantages and privileged power, is not sustainable. There are limits to the massive layoffs of public employees and production gains from the intensified exploitation of labor … something has to give. One thing is certain: The capitalist system will not fall or be replaced because of its internal rot or “contradictions”."

FFG 02

16th Aug 2010, 11:09

I will be there.

Ok most have read this but have you forwarded to your mates on email?

I haven't recieved one invite via email. COpy ans paste the details and send to your mates...

or we will be forever grounded:*

FGD135

16th Aug 2010, 11:56

The problems in Aviation stem from the conditions in GA.
That would be Australian GA you would be talking about.

But, what is happening to airline pilot T&Cs is happening all around the world - and has been happening, slowly and gradually, in stops and starts, since the birth of commercial aviation in the 1920s. Well before any little GA pilot decided to pay for his own endorsement!

First fix the GA award so it can become a sustainable career that offers rewards greater than working at Coles.
Where will the money to finance these sustainable GA careers come from?

Your future T&C's are within your own hands, no one else.

Stirring stuff but plain wrong. Just the opposite. Your future T&Cs are dependent solely on the economic conditions at the time.

Tidbinbilla

16th Aug 2010, 18:23

Folks,

This thread is drifting yet again off the topic. There are innumerable general T&C threads running at the mo', to which you're most welcome to contribute.

Please keep to the topic at hand, which is a meeting regarding the offshoring of Australian airline jobs.

psycho joe

16th Aug 2010, 23:16

Lunars is an Indian troll pretending to be an angry dispute pilot. :hmm:

ratpoison

17th Aug 2010, 06:04

ATTENTION AIPA
Why is it that the meeting which will be probably the largest gathering of pilot's for many years is AFTER the election? Quite conveniently the Monday 2 days after the Saturday election. This is a golden opportunity to expose what this government and management are complicit to in off shoring AUSTRALIAN jobs and yet the opportunity to expose this through media etc is being squandered.This is a PRE election issue, NOT a POST election. No doubt AIPA don't want to upset the labor party and affect their votes BEFORE the election. The labor government have been aware of this practice for years with Cabin Crew via the FAAA and individual complaints to Gillard herself when she was deputy PM and yet they have done NOTHING. It does not mean the liberal government will stop this un-Australian rape of the aviation industry, but it would force their hand to come out with some sort of policy BEFORE the election so people can make an informed decision when they vote.
Very suss indeed why it is AFTER the election. A response from AIPA would no doubt be appreciated since recent phone calls can't answer this.

wobblepump

17th Aug 2010, 06:29

Yes, the media coverage at this meeting, if held before the election, would certainly add some spice to a very dull pre-election campaign being run by both parties.

slim

17th Aug 2010, 06:55

Rat, do you think it really matters whether the meeting is before or after the election? If either party thinks it's an issue that may influence votes they will issue a 'policy' statement on it. I'd suggest that unless you believe in Santa Claus then you know as well as the rest of us that 'policy' promises before an election rapidly vaporise after an election. Have you written to your local member to raise your concerns or did you just want to use this as an opportunity to do a bit of AIPA bashing? What will influence the goverment (and management) after election day are the actions that arise as a result of Monday's meeting, posting in large font on PPRuNe will not.

jibba_jabba

17th Aug 2010, 07:31

Hmmmm, dont think Abbot and the liberal party will help with the Work choices push..... or they may help by changing it to "choices work"....

ratpoison

17th Aug 2010, 07:40

Is that better FONT for ya Slim? Yes, I do believe it makes a difference BEFORE the election for reasons given in previous post. Not that the Liberals will make any difference as they are all tarred with the same corrupt brush as airline management. It was not AIPA bashing my china. It was a simple query of why it is after the election which they will not answer from an AIPA member mind you. :cool:

teresa green

17th Aug 2010, 08:29

Charlie, you don't have to be a unionist to stick together. Its called commonsense, and noted another post, regarding management. Which way do they go? Having been in management (Pilot) it is one thing to have a half a dozen disgruntled blokes come to see you with what they see is a problem, it is a whole new ball game to have a couple of thousand drivers, all with the s%$ts. They are going to have to deal with it, and to stand against it, will see them out on a limb, not a comfortable position to be in, in fact they will be caught between a rock and a hard place. That is when the negotiating will start, and you people will have to be ready. So be definite with what you want, and go for it. Good luck.:D

Angle of Attack

17th Aug 2010, 10:05

I believe this goes beyond politics rat, I think you are drawing a long bow talking about after the election. We as a group should not care who is in government the key is getting common unity then enforcing that unity which if it is united will always succeed. Not rocket science mate!

slim

17th Aug 2010, 10:30

Rat, I have no idea why AIPA will not answer your query. Perhaps they are busy taking care of more serious and pressing issues than your demands for an answer. Perhaps at the meeting someone will explain the reason it is being held on that day, I really don't know. If you're attending and you still see it as a big issue then no doubt you can ask someone there from AIPA face to face.

What I do know is that there is often far more going on behind the scenes than is obvious to the average punter like myself. My guess? - The issue at hand requires participation by several parties, AIPA, AFAP, JPCC and the 'to and fro' that occurs when multiple parties (often with conflicting agendas/beliefs) try and tackle something can quite often lead to slow forward progress. I imagine that by the time AIPA or whoever decided a pilot meeting would be a good idea it was too late to get it happening before the election. People need adequate notice to attend so they can make plans and the organisers want ample time for word to spread to guarantee a good turn out. Do you really think some pilots complaining about offshoring of jobs will make big news in an election week ahead of issues such as $43Billion for broadband, trillion dollar economy management, asylum seeker policy etc etc? For my money it's quite smart to have it after the election where it stands a chance of being picked up by the media and given appropriate attention instead of taking the risk of it just being seen as a pre-election grab for attention by disgruntled pilot unions.

You may see it as 'very suss' but 'my china' I suspect it's just the way things have panned out and I re-affirm my belief that results will come from pilot actions, which may in turn sway government policy.

biton

17th Aug 2010, 12:15

Yeah, I see your point. I think I'll leave that one alone. I only raised the date issue as a quirk of history. No other intent. Just me having a brain fart.

NOSIGN

17th Aug 2010, 12:54

What is AFAP's response/advice towards the meeting? (presuming an afap rep is reading)

peuce

17th Aug 2010, 23:53

Mr Buchanan has denied that the airline is planning to bring in overseas pilots at lower wages and conditions and last week accused AIPA of scaremongering.

So, is he, or isn't he?

gutso-blundo

18th Aug 2010, 00:26

Seems to me Bruce is hiding in the details.
On one hand he's denied he plans to bring foreign pilots in to take local jobs, but on the other he's said nothing about not sending those local jobs overseas to take foreign pilots...
That's how you get around those pesky local labour laws :ugh:

Cpt Link Hog

18th Aug 2010, 00:31

Announced today, 12 upcoming VB Commands cancelled due to PB taking over VB flying

And coming in the back door at Pacific Blue are more DEC's mostly ex Ansett to join their mate's (Fact)

Mostly flying from Oz not "Based" in brizzy but some clever rostering soon fixes that...

PB is now hiring 30 new crew I hope the PB VB situation is addressed

ratpoison

18th Aug 2010, 00:40

Good explanation there Slim. I see daily what affect the vermin management of that airline has on it's loyal staff. Loyalty and co-operation that are fast becoming non existent. Anger, frustration and serious concern over future career path in an AUSTRALIAN airline is becoming the daily norm and then taking that anger into the cockpit of aircraft is a recipe for disaster. And to think the ATSB and CASA sit back and do nothing regarding this serious SAFETY issue only confirms to us all what a corrupt and incestuous relationship airlines and the regulator have in this country.
After having the fight punched out of them for so long, people begin to even see the spectators as their enemy. As has been said many times here, it is now the time to stand up and take these bastards on. Enough is enough.

Private Patjarr

18th Aug 2010, 01:48

Quote:
Mr Buchanan has denied that the airline is planning to bring in overseas pilots at lower wages and conditions and last week accused AIPA of scaremongering.
So, is he, or isn't he?

I think he was. Lets hope the outcome of the meeting on the 23rd starts the chain of events that means he wont be!

A. Le Rhone

18th Aug 2010, 06:43

However even if the CEO's are seen to 'relent' on this major issue of offshoring, there will inevitably be repeated attacks on various elements of your livelihoods over the coming years. Less $ in your pockets means more in theirs.

The only way to counter such sustained attacks is to once and for all combine to create a unified pilot body. Whilst conceivably there would be different interest groups within that body (GA, regionals, short-haul, J* subcommittees etc) it is imperative that Professional Pilots operate under ONE umbrella group. Intelligent, tactically coherent and politically savvy skills are needed for success and this can only be achieved together.

teggun

18th Aug 2010, 08:50

I realise we need to something to stop the rot and the upcoming meeting is a good start, however I just wonder what can be.

Just because we have a meeting with a great turn out, isn't all of a sudden going to change this management point of view.

We also know what happens with industrial action, so please someone advise how can we turn it around.:ok:

blow.n.gasket

18th Aug 2010, 08:54

Would now be the perfect opportunity to get AusALPA up and running as the overarching Pilot's Union?

With all this offshoring of pilots jobs, I wonder if the Australian Taxation Office would like to start taking a closer look?
Unless one divest's themselves of every Australian asset you are up for Aussie tax. Aussie tax rates on what could only be described as "Coolie wages" would make some/most of these contracts totally and absolutely untenable.:ooh:

breakfastburrito

18th Aug 2010, 11:22

If you want a taste of what's coming down the line, watch this video:
The Life of a Regional Pilot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNJucTcuh-w)
The full series can be found here: PBS flying cheap (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/).

This is why you must turn up on the 23rd.

Gnadenburg

18th Aug 2010, 12:16

With all this offshoring of pilots jobs, I wonder if the Australian Taxation Office would like to start taking a closer look?
Unless one divest's themselves of every Australian asset you are up for Aussie tax. Aussie tax rates on what could only be described as "Coolie wages" would make some/most of these contracts totally and absolutely untenable

Taxed on the income your assets produce at about 30%. But, importantly for your argument, you are not taxed on wages.

However, the ATO may want to have a close look at where the pilot bases his family. How much time is he spending in Australia? He could be deemed a resident for tax purposes and yes the coolie wages won't be so good.

standard

18th Aug 2010, 12:57

Not forsaken to the fact that Australian pilot jobs are under threat and clearly the only way to solve this problem is to sink New Zealand... (please hurry global warming!!)

I find it absoloutly hilarious that the people jumping up and down are mainly current JQ pilots.. perhaps you should have a chat to some of your senior members who had/have absoloutly no problem at all in undercutting their Qantas counterparts!!! the shoe is on the other foot now boys! Karma is a mofo!!! unfortunatly for all of us it was these guys that started the snowball that we all have to stop... race to the bottom?:ok:

Gas Bags

18th Aug 2010, 13:02

Teggun posted,

I realise we need to something to stop the rot and the upcoming meeting is a good start, however I just wonder what can be.

Just because we have a meeting with a great turn out, isn't all of a sudden going to change this management point of view.

We also know what happens with industrial action, so please someone advise how can we turn it around.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

I can tell you from experience that the only way you will influence them to sway from their agenda is to get the public on side and more than likely that will only be done by playing the safety card. The PUBLIC response is the only thing that will scare this action because other than that it is all LEGAL, and people will do what it takes to get the job (like it or lump it).

You have all seen the response from BB to the onshoring of foreign pilots rhetoric and that is...

Mr Buchanan has denied that the airline is planning to bring in overseas pilots at lower wages and conditions and last week accused AIPA of scaremongering.

He said anyone employed in Australia would be subject to immigration and Australian workplace laws and said the main aim of the scheme was to create opportunities for Australians.

He is entirely correct and acting within Australian industrial laws.

Jetstar are part of the QANTAS group and the only thing the QANTAS group will protect at all costs is their SAFETY RECORD. Anything else can be easily dealt with via the many highly paid spin doctors on their payroll.

Unfortunate as it may seem to the Pilots involved the public really is not that concerned because they dont see an airline pilot as 'doing it tough' so using the fair play angle wont cut it with the Australian public, the majority of who are on 1/3 the money and doing more hours to get it.

Once again it is the public opinion that will sway these people from their course, NOTHING ELSE. You all need to find the springboard to make that happen.

I wish all of you the best and sincerely hope that the 23rd will be the beginning to a quick solution.

Again I want to say I hope you guys completely turn this thing around as it is a travesty that you are the latest to feel.

Please read Mr. Hat's post (#20). He has it right on the money.

GB

cart_elevator

18th Aug 2010, 14:49

Unfortunatley th QF Group has precedent on their side in relation to flight crew, ie cabin crew:

BKK based crew working on Aus reg aircraft within Aus and international routes (for 9 years till it closed)
NRT based crew the same (for over 20 years)
Jetconnect Longhaul and Shorthaul AKL/CHC based crew on both Aus reg and NZ reg aircraft
LHR based crew working on Aus reg aircraft (and now cross-crewing with Aus crew)

There was no succesful objection to 'same job/uniform/aircraft... but different salaries' from the two FAAA divisions. One division of the union did try ...

And there is now B-scale Aus based crew... again same uniform/aircraft/ work... but different salaries

So how do pilots think they can object when the practice has been going on for years with CASA endorsed cabin crew?

nPlease -- I am ot having a go - just dont see how it can be achieved - QF successfully set the precendent with cabin crew many, many moons ago.

Do you think the courts will see the difference between CASA endorsed cabin crew and tech crew? (Yes I know the job is very different, but will the courts see it?)

Interesting point though, if pilots win... what will happen to cabin crew who are currently a similar situation?

Go for it !!:ok:

Neptunus Rex

18th Aug 2010, 15:29

The Cabin Crew situation is quite different. Many of the pax flying between Oz and Asian destinations do not speak English. They feel more comfortable if there are CC who can speak their language and look familiar. That is simply a comfort and commercial consideration. It can also be argued on grounds of flight safety, when emergency instructions in the appropriate language can be delivered by native speakers.
Most pax never see the Tech Crew, so their ethnic origins do not matter, just their professional abilities.

Neptunus Rex

18th Aug 2010, 16:32

In the past 44 years, not one life has been lost on any Australian Regular Public Transport operation. Australia is rated Category 1 in FAA's International Aviation Assessment Program. As a nation, we hold a proud Flight Safety record that is second to none.
Having flown with many pilots and flight engineers from many different countries, I can say that Australians are right up there amongst the most professional I know.
However, we can't help but display a 'larrikin' streak at times. In most cases it is just a bit of misplaced modesty, not wanting to be seen to be standing out from the crowd. Well, we bloody do stand out from the crowd! We are simply the best, and that is what our passengers want to hear.
Unfortunately, airline pilots are still perceived as well-paid silvertails, and management play to that idea. The only way to win the battle against overseas based pilots taking Australian jobs is to push our professionalism and safety record. Stop the threatened influx first, then address the CoS issues with airline management.
Perception is everything. Choose some pilots who look the part, and can speak convincingly, to go in front of the inevitable TV cameras after the meeting. Have them prepare and rehearse their replies. Keep emotional responses (and the rest of the throng) out of the picture. Invest in a good PR company and fight fire with fire.
Don't just wait and react, plan ahead to keep the bastards honest.

A. Le Rhone

18th Aug 2010, 21:25

Some good points being made about to handle this scenario.

But still there is the dwelling on what's gone before. Yes pilots have forgotten GA as they progressed, Yes AIPA and AFAP have had differences, yes sc@b$ started the rot in 89, yes AN pilots deviously undercut QF in the JQ debacle and yes QF pilots arrogance is biting them on the bum. Put all that to rest. Sure; don't forget it, tell the grandkids etc if they care but as long as it festers we will get nowhere. Let it go and move forward in some kind of unity - preferably one large combined Professional Pilot Association.

And as the last few posts have stated, the PR battle is all important. Forget the salary issue, the public aren't interested. But they are interested in the fact that none less than the US President has authorised minimum experience legislation to avoid crashes like Colgan. They have also seen what poorly trained/disciplined foreign pilots are capable of - the Garuda crash killed and injured Aussie journalists - the very people who will relay our message.

Again, this is just the first fight of many. Do it well and united and we have a fighting chance. Bitch and bicker at each other on PPRuNe and nothing will change for the next 10 years.

Waghi Warrior

18th Aug 2010, 21:31

Fellow Pilots

I totally agree with the issues,I'm not personally affected by all this,however I do strongly feel that the conditions in Australia for pilots right across the board should be improved.

My personal view would be to expose the safety issues to the public,to force the people pulling the strings to act positively. I wouldn't be happy sitting in the back of an aeroplane knowing the pilots up front aren't operating at their best as they have personal things on their minds,ie financial pressures,family problems and career progression concerns all due to their management team hiring foreign pilots.

For those who don't agree with me,just ask any Jetstar or Virgin Blue FO how they feel about this issue.

struggling

18th Aug 2010, 23:22

...the only way you will sway (them) from their agenda is to get the public on side and more than likely that will only be done by playing the safety card...Is a double edged sword!

Alternatively, taking ‘Ownership’ of the Strategy and the Company wouldn't kill the goose and if well conducted, may well strongly appeal to the public, shareholders and staff alike.

A hundred grand a head is hell of a lot less than wages potentially lost to industrial action and/or accepting an offshore contract.

You have a choice. Think carefully. Plan long term and don't rush in.

psycho joe

19th Aug 2010, 02:45

...the only way you will sway (them) from their agenda is to get the public on side and more than likely that will only be done by playing the safety card...

The public and the media absolutely need to be on side to stop off-shoring. Managers need to be persuaded that bad publicity on this will affect ticket sales.

The PR needs to be handled very delicately. Purely playing the safety card against foreign labour can very quickly be twisted to look like xenophobic bigotry.

Also any actual industrial action resulting in cancelled or delayed flights will only alienate the public. I'd bet folding money that in light of any industrial action, all major newspapers & media outlets will find some sob story about an orphan child who's dying of some horrid disease, who's only wish is to go on some exotic holiday. But alas they cannot because of those rich, greedy, xenophobic, pilots. (Just as media has done in the past.)

Zapatas Blood

19th Aug 2010, 03:18

TID Edit:

Hey guys, I made some really stupid and inflammatory remarks, for which I've been banned by the mods.

You won't see me comment on this thread again.

Is that okay?

NEXT!!

Mr. Hat

19th Aug 2010, 07:26

200 posts thus far.

The question is how many at your workplace are aware this meeting is taking place. Lot of the guys I fly with are still not aware.

Have the relevant unions sent emails to their members? As far as I'm ware they have not...

Not a good start really.

Keg

19th Aug 2010, 09:40

All AIPA members have been notified- twice now.

Ted Nugent

19th Aug 2010, 12:53

I'm a Jetstar FO, I'm a AIPA member, I will be there!!!!!!

aulglarse

19th Aug 2010, 13:49

I will be there as well (AIPA member) and looking forward to a few bevvies after.;)

Neptunus Rex

19th Aug 2010, 16:10

and looking forward to a few bevvies after.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gifBe careful - be very careful. You can be sure that the gutter press journos will follow you from the meeting and try to eavesdrop on your conversations, then let rip with a slanted, sensational story for the next days papers.

Watch your collective six!

peuce

20th Aug 2010, 00:34

The headlines are already printed, waiting to go on the 24th ...

" Airline Pilots threaten Christams travel chaos "

Mr. Hat

20th Aug 2010, 01:11

and the AFAP...

VIPA..

VB people are fully aware of it?

Lot of people don't even know what prune is. Suggest AIPA people/reps call AFAP/VIPA advise VB REX etc.

Mr. Hat

20th Aug 2010, 01:32

PILOTS angry about changes to flying at Jetstar | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/pilots-angry-about-changes-to-flying-at-jetstar/story-e6frg95x-1225907445964)

PILOTS angry about changes to flying at Jetstar will meet in Sydney on Monday to discuss their response.

They are also angry at suggestions the first 787s to be delivered to the Qantas Group may be operated out of Singapore. More than 100 off-duty pilots have already confirmed they will attend the meeting, organised by the Australian and International Pilots Association, and officials expect a strong turnout. Qantas pilots are being encouraged to attend and representatives from Jetstar New Zealand and Virgin Blue are also expected to be present. The pilots oppose Jetstar decisions to base Australian-registered aircraft in Singapore and a pilot transfer scheme. They also fear that a move to allow overseas pilots to fly in Australia under a new company is an assault on their conditions.

JETSTAR will boost services in the Perth market by 60 per cent with daily A320 Perth-Brisbane flights starting in December and Perth-Gold Coast services taking off in April. The low-cost airline will also expand its Perth-Melbourne services from 14 to 18 times weekly and Perth-Sydney from seven to 11 times a week. The expansion will be supported by a multi-million-dollar three-year joint marketing agreement with the WA government, expected to bring an additional 120,000 visitors and $117 million in tourism revenue.

And here is a preview of what might hamper your efforts:

Liberals break policy silence on air strategy | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/liberals-break-policy-silence-on-air-strategy/story-e6frg95x-1225907441816)

The almighty dollar!

1000's and 1000's of "Australian" trained students. Thats right trained here to take your jobs on a bowl of rice jetstar salary.

standard

20th Aug 2010, 05:51

Be careful - be very careful. You can be sure that the gutter press journos will follow you from the meeting and try to eavesdrop on your conversations, then let rip with a slanted, sensational story for the next days papers.

Watch your collective six!

Are you serious??... I'm pretty sure Journos have better things to do than listen to a bunch of lads stand around having a few beers and talk sh&t.

I am pretty sure they will be writting headlines like... "Jetstar pilots get a taste of their own medicine" or "Australian pilots continue to sign the first contract that is handed to them"... word on the street is that JQ are having no problem at all filling the front seats in any of their operations. I am sorry if this upsets people but this boat started to sail years ago!

It is good to see that crew are staring to realise the error of ways, hopefully we can put a stop to crews undercutting each other by being selfish and short sighted!!!... United we conquer, divided we fall!!

Private Patjarr

20th Aug 2010, 06:07

I certainly think we do need to be careful of how the press write the story.

It's a fine line between - the reality;
wanting to keep Australian jobs for Australian pilots/not wanting to have our Terms and Conditions declined

and the untrue but easy written headline for a journo (BS that's going to sell papers);
"Pilots demand more money".

It DOES need to be considered. I hope that AIPA have thought to select appropriate journalists to write the story.

EVERYONE WHO ATTENDS. Please keep this in mind. It would be very easy for poor journalists to write a sensationalist story if they get the wrong vibes from the pilots.

Bo777

20th Aug 2010, 07:45

word on the street is that JQ are having no problem at all filling the front seats in any of their operations. :hmm: Really??? Just wondering would they be Australian pilots?

Ken Borough

20th Aug 2010, 07:58

[QUOTE
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif Really??? Just wondering would they be Australian pilots? QUOTE]

Nah. They are talking about Star Class. :E:E

MTOW

20th Aug 2010, 08:20

Only an 89er would understand the 'closing of the sorry circle' significance of the date of this meeting, for it was on the 24th of August 1989 that the slide into the current abyss that is our once fine industry started.

Gents and ladies, let me wish you well on what you will decide that day - and urge you, every one of you, to put aside any and every difference that might in any way stop you ALL from uniting into one united group.

There will be the naysayers. Don't let them win as they did in 1989.

MTOW

20th Aug 2010, 08:30

Just scanning through some of the earlier threads and have to say that this, from Neptunus Rex, is the best advice I've seen so far.

Invest in a good PR company and fight fire with fire. Don't for one moment think that the public cares a tuppeny you-know-what about safety and the superior professional standards of Australian pilots. We 89ers fell into that particular pit. Get a professional PR company and FOLLOW the expensive advice they give you.

flyingfrenchman

20th Aug 2010, 08:39

Word from AIPA so far is 150+ rsvp's. Everyone really needs to make every effort to get there!

Tidbinbilla

20th Aug 2010, 08:50

I have a 4 day trip starting Monday. Otherwise, I'd have been there.:sad:

Good luck to you all :ok:

Dukeunlimited

20th Aug 2010, 09:30

Alas, I can't make it on the day. All the best!

3 Holer

20th Aug 2010, 09:50

MTOW states:
Don't let them win as they did in 1989.

There were NO winners in 1989.

Scarbagjack

20th Aug 2010, 11:08

Don't for one moment think that the public cares a tuppeny you-know-what about safety and the superior professional standards of Australian pilots.

Crap.
I am public, I fly a lot and I definitlely give a tuppeny about the standard of the people flying the aircraft my arse is in. I will pay more to know this.
In fact I thought I already did. ( by the company I choose to fly with )
For what its worth, I support your stand.
I am railway and have seen similar attacks occur in my industry.( Not of the same scale, but, still attacking good Aussie stock.)
Good Luck.

A. Le Rhone

20th Aug 2010, 22:34

Listening to Australia News Network and they are reporting that AIPA is organising a meeting because J* pilots are dissatisfied with salaries pilots will get paid for the SIN-MEL sector.

Humble suggestion: can I suggest you concentrate on safety and the implications of fast-tracking non-Australian trained and licenced aircrew. Get a PR company to start working on this (PR is important - seen the Gruen Transfer?). Airlines can spend millions on advertising but this expenditure is pointless if the public perceives they are reducing safety margins - and as we know that's exactly what they are trying to do, purely to further line their own pockets with $.

Going-on about salaries will win no public support. That improvement will come about as a natural part of the looming global shortage (see the Asian Forum - this shortage as already savaging Tiger and PAL).

Focus on safety. This is the key to success not salaries.

MTOW

20th Aug 2010, 23:28

Crap.
I am public, I fly a lot and I definitlely give a tuppeny about the standard of the people flying the aircraft my arse is in. I will pay more to know this.Scarbagjack, you are special - and in my (and everyone involved in the events of 1989-90)'s experience, there're aren't many like you out there. The punters in 1989-90 just wanted to get to where ever they were going - at the cheapest possible price - and didn't care who took them there. The Australian 'meedja' even made heroes of the scum (or pick your own preferred four letter word to describe them) who flocked out here in the early days for a well-paid working holiday bringing their own aircraft.

I agree with ALR to a degree - the companies are already cleverly skewing this - in the public's eye - into a 'fat cats protecting their cushy jobs' pay dispute. You need a professional PR company to advise you. By all means push the safety and professionalism angles, (they're really all you've got), but don't expect Bruce & Brenda Bogan to buy it. All they want is to get to their destination as cheaply as possible.

Good luck to you all.

systematically

21st Aug 2010, 01:09

I recently traveled and had the choice of Qantas, PB, AirNZ and Jetstar... Qantas and Air NZ were the cheapest and they have the best service!? Whats going on? Maybe JS and PB are just trying to make the "most" money. (especially when you have to pay for water on PB).
Thanks for the awesome service with a smile QANTAS. As a Bogan I am now willing to pay a little more if I have to.

Ozgrade3

21st Aug 2010, 01:18

I wont be able to attend Mondays meeting in Sydney due work commitments. However I would like to see a similar meeting held in each capital city if thats possible. Further more, I would like to see a fighting fund created to take on the management of any company who wish to export Australian jobs.

If we can raise just $100 from every pilot, AME, LAME, cabin crew, CSA, charter pilot, instructor, student pilot, we have a fighting chance to keep jobs in Australia. I reckon I can raise $1000 from my workmates alone.

We also need to get key people on side.

Alan Jones 2GB

Neil Mitchell 3AW

Dick Smith

Jerry Harvey

John Singleton

A current Affair

Today Tonight

We need media coverage, get the message out to the people thats its jobs for Aussies and safety thats at risk. We are all in it together, those in the airlines and those hoping to get there. But thats not all. EVERY role in an airline can be exported, operations, engineering, accounting, IT.

Its is time people, that we must band together as a profession, aircrew and ground staff alike,whether you are big jet driver or VFR bugsmasher driver. JQ, QF,DJ, Tiger or outback GA.

Most of all, we need to speak as one, a united voice. We want to....must preserve job opportunities for not just ourselves, but our children. If they can do it to pilots, then every other job categry in Australia is at risk.

If we fail, I think I will just throw my Licence and Logbook in the trash and just walk away.

psycho joe

21st Aug 2010, 01:32

Jerry Harvey

Just a couple of years ago he was whinging about how he couldn't get Australian workers to muck out his stables for slave wages & was pushing to be allowed to import cheap labour.

Mr. Hat

21st Aug 2010, 01:47

The key to the entire meeting's success is to involve the likes of the Virgin pilots and the Tiger pilots. Of course J* and QF will turn up as its happening inside their company. When pilots from other companies start turning up THEN you have a fighting chance.

My gut feeling is that this will not occur. Not because the other companies pilots don't support their J* QF brothers but purely and simply that they are not aware of what is taking place. I've spoken to VB mates and none of them have any idea of it.

I suspect the AFAP don't support the cause and thus a significant portion of the VB Tiger workforce won't even know its on. Does anyone know what VIPA are saying?

ManillaChillaDilla

21st Aug 2010, 02:16

Stand united and these B@STARDS have no where to go. Without sounding alarmist this is most likely the most important time in Australian aviation in a very long time. If you make your living flying planes this will determine your future.

Lets stop these mongrels having their day in the KPI/ Bonus sun.

The word is they, ( the B@STARDS) are very concerned.

Time is up for the band-aid boys. :suspect:

M

Stationair8

21st Aug 2010, 02:41

Personally I would avoid a couple of those individuals on the list from representing professional pilots at all costs.

Kangaroo Court

21st Aug 2010, 03:05

It'll be a lot harder for them this time without Hawke and Abels. I don't think the public are stupid about air safety at all. They thought they were powerless in '89 and so they went on making the best of it. Now with the internet and communication as it is; it'll be hard to crush a decent job action.

Jober.as.a.Sudge

21st Aug 2010, 03:09

Personally I would avoid a couple of those individuals on the list from representing professional pilots at all costs.

:ok: As would I!!!

...A Current Affair, Today Tonight

Those brain-dead twats couldn't get it right even if you spoon-fed them! They're mindless regurgitators of the most simplistic, sensationalist drivel to ever be passed-off as main-stream media reporting!!!

Arnold E

21st Aug 2010, 03:25

Those brain-dead twats couldn't get it right even if you spoon-fed them! They're mindless regurgitators of the most simplistic, sensationalist drivel to ever be passed-off as main-stream media reporting!!!

Yeah, but apart from that, is everything else about them ok?:E

Barramundi

21st Aug 2010, 03:49

Extracts from Dick Smiths Documentary - The Population Puzzle (ABC)

DICK VO: Last year two thirds of Australia's doctors and nurses were recruited from the world's poorest nations. And why are we looking to the developing world to fill gaps in our work force? because it's a hell of a lot easier and cheaper than training our own people

DICK SYNC: We do it, the easiest way we can and the cheapest way and if you can simply bring someone in as a skilled immigrant, and not do any of the training,

DICK SYNC: What I'd like to see is Australian business concentrating on training people, increasing the skills of
our own work force before just lazily taking people from overseas.

Dick pretty well says it all.:D

The fact is the CEO's of our airlines have been trained from university days only to spend money when it is actually needed and not a moment before. Pilots are no different to wing mirrors on a Holden Commodore, we want them delivered and ready to go on the day of assembly and not a minute earlier and if we cant get it on the day we will look elsewhere.

This situation is no different;

1. We need pilots for a new base in Singapore
2. We need to firstly advertise internally for interest within the Qantas
group to see if our qualified pilots will be prepared to move on less pay
and conditions.
3. Shock and Horror we tried advertising within our ranks for interest but
got little interest
4. We cant recruit non endorsed pilots within Australia into the job in time
5. We have no option but to look offshore for qualified pilots now.

As Dick Smith documentary showed our companies are simply choosing the easy way out instead of recruiting and training to meet future needs.

There will be many losers in this if it is succesful but those sitting in GA hoping for a slot into airlines may well be the biggest losers of the lot because the competition for jobs will get a lot harder and the knock on effect to our aviation market will be devestating.

Its a disgrace.:*

Good luck for next week, I wish you well..

Long John Silver

21st Aug 2010, 04:25

Dear AFAP,

As a member, why have I not been told about this meeting? By doing so you are helping the airlines to keep us as divided groups, easily defeated.

What I have witnessed in recent weeks is a rare display of genuine pilot unity and a desire to preserve what little conditions our profession has left. This is one of those moments in history that we will all look back on. Its time to act!

I want a union that actively works for best interests of its members. One that has a professional, intelligent and articulate PR spokesman who actively seeks out public avenues to voice our concerns. One that does not get caught up in cat fights and personal conflicts of years gone by, but proactively looks to bettering our futures. That’s why I pay my fees, that’s what I expect.

We need as many people as possible at this meeting in Sydney (and further meetings it Melbourne etc.) and I can't help feeling your personal agendas are possibly not in my best interests, therefore I'm seriously questioning my ongoing membership.

Please show me I’m wrong.

Sincerely,
Disgruntled Member.

Red Jet

21st Aug 2010, 04:59

Does anyone know what VIPA are saying?

VIPA's president has Emailed all members, unequivocally endorsing the meeting and encouraging all members to attend, if they are available.

AIPA and VIPA are aligning themselves closer and closer, and the AusALPA agenda is hotting up. Don't hold your breath and expect to see anyone of significance from AFAP though! Funny that..................:rolleyes:

Toruk Macto

21st Aug 2010, 05:03

Maybe some parts of some pilots union also work on the assumption that a devided pilot group is easier to control thus making it easier to keep there castle intact.

Mr. Hat

21st Aug 2010, 06:24

Long John did you send it to them? I'd say it'll be the straw that breaks the membership back.

Cactusjack

21st Aug 2010, 06:25

Bring paper bag with eye holes cut out..unmarked van with tinted windows over the road will carry Qantas HR staff practicing zoom lens photographyhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif

And here I was hoping that those same HR footstools had left with Darth, damn !!

Oxidant

21st Aug 2010, 06:34

rmcdonal

21st Aug 2010, 07:15

AIPA and VIPA are aligning themselves closer and closer, and the AusALPA agenda is hotting up. Don't hold your breath and expect to see anyone of significance from AFAP though! Funny that
So AFAP are to send an email to all their pilots telling them to attend an AIPA meeting? I have yet to see one thing done by AIPA AT ALL that has been beneficial to the pilot group in the company I work for. All they do is rag on AFAP and then post about it online.

I certainly hope this meeting doesn't just turn into a "we hate AFAP" rally. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Interceptor

21st Aug 2010, 07:38

The AFAP will be present at the meeting as stated in their latest update dated 21/08/10.

http://www.afap.org.au/files/LP65EI58BP/Australian_Jobs_UPDATE.pdf

Mr. Hat

21st Aug 2010, 08:20

ABC Website

Pilots round on Jetstar over new contracts - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/08/21/2989509.htm)

Pilots round on Jetstar over new contracts
Posted 7 hours 49 minutes ago

Jetstar has defended the contracts, saying the contracts are still being finalised.

Jetstar pilots say they are considering launching action with Fair Work Australia as discontent grows about new employment contracts being offered by the airline.

The Australian and International Pilots Association says Jetstar wants to cut wages and conditions for pilots flying planes between Singapore and Melbourne.

Pilots are meeting in Sydney on Monday to consider what action they can take to oppose the plans.

The association's Richard Woodward says the pilots may consider legal action or making a public statement against the company.

"We will brief the pilots on what we think their capabilities are, and what the options are on Monday," he said.

"We have a range of things on the plate, but of course we're not going to publicly telegraph our options in advance."

Jetstar has defended the contracts, and spokesman Simon Westaway says the contracts are still being finalised for the pilots that will be based in Singapore.

"We need to compete with those airlines in the Asia Pacific region [and] they have different arrangements," he said.

"What I can say and assure our pilots is that they will enjoy very good conditions, very good arrangements, and importantly have that flexibility to grow with our organisation.

sumtingwong

21st Aug 2010, 15:12

Could it indeed be a bridge too far with respect to the race to the bottom?

I hope so.

Can't make it due work, but full support form the Top End.

Just once people, just once, its time to make it work

WoodenEye

22nd Aug 2010, 00:21

In March 2009, when Qantas LHEBA7 was rolled over, AIPA agreed to recognise the role of Jetconnect.

In December 2009 Qantas Manager DAVID EPSTEIN publicly stated: ‘It's really quite simple. We have New Zealand staff operating New Zealand-originated aircraft; operated by a New Zealand company on aircraft that are registered in New Zealand.....We're feeling confident.’

In August 2010 an AFAP Memo stated: ‘In Jetstar, an operation based in Singapore will be doing flying which should be done under the Australian Jetstar Pilots Agreement.... After considered discussion with our lawyers, it appears there is no legal impediment to the actions proposed by the company.....’

If AIPA continues to run its Jetconnect Fair Work Case to now try and rope in what it agreed to in March 2009, it will not only lose, but will also help create legal precedent for what Jetstar Asia now intends to do. An outcome Australia, its pilots and aircraft engineers simply can’t afford.

AIPA & AFAP need to work together to ensure that Australia & Qantas Jetstar continue to have a world-class industry where pilots and engineers are proud to say: "OUR WORK IS OUR SIGNATURE."

Think United!

Shrags123

22nd Aug 2010, 02:54

How can you be so sure that court case will fail? It's basically untested legislation. Worth a try I reckon. After all, the court case is not about the jobs, it's about under-award pay for those who have the jobs. And yes, the AFAP and AIPA need to work together on this.

All the best for the meeting tomorrow boys and girls, I'd be there if I could but I'm on duty. Let us unite, might be our last chance.

mcgrath50

22nd Aug 2010, 03:17

Are you going to the meeting WoodenEye?

breakfastburrito

22nd Aug 2010, 03:18

Pilots vow go-slow over Jetstar plans
JETSTAR pilots are planning a month long go-slow they have dubbed ''a September to remember'' that could cause delays in protest at what they say is an attempt by the airline to undermine wages and conditions.

More than 100 pilots will meet on Monday to vent their anger over the employment arrangements proposed by the airline as part of its expansion into Asia and Europe.

This includes encouraging pilots to transfer to the airline's new Singapore-Melbourne route where - despite flying Australian-registered A330 aircraft into Australia - they will be employed on private contracts under Singapore laws.

Under the plan, Singapore and Vietnam-based pilots would also be transferred to Australia where they would not be employed under the Jetstar Australia employment agreement, but through a ''new Jetstar Group company'' that would only be required to pay the award rate.

''I think you'll see what might be called a distinct lack of enthusiasm,'' said one pilot, who asked not to be named.

''These are not guys who take this kind of action all the time - there is a lot of anger out there.''

A range of go-slow or work-to-rule measures are being considered by the pilots, including:

Refusing to work outside their scheduled hours to fill in for sick colleagues or to meet increased demand;

Refusing to take on more than a minimum load of fuel, so that if there is an in-flight delay as a result of weather or air traffic, flights will have to be diverted;

A go-slow on pre-flight checks.

''If the pilot feels he needs to read all of the pre-flight checks through twice he will do that,'' the pilot said.

''If a flight is delayed, he won't try to make up time in the air - it'll be steady as she goes.''

Airlines rely heavily on the goodwill of pilots to keep services running on time.

A go-slow by even a fifth of Jetstar's pilots would cause significant delays across the airline with the potential for delays across the broader Qantas-JetStar network.

Jetstar's head of corporate relations, Simon Westaway, refused to comment on the pilots' plans, saying that the airline ''does not respond to speculative commentary''.

He said that more than 70 Jetstar pilots had expressed an interest in working on the new Singapore to Melbourne route where pilots would be ''well remunerated'' on ''Singapore terms'' and ''enjoy the benefits of a Singapore basing, including their low tax environment''. He declined to comment on how much they would be paid.

The vice-president of the Pilots Association, Captain Richard Woodward, said Jetstar's pilot transfer program was an attempt to undercut union-negotiated wage agreements.
SMH 21/8/2010 (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/jetstar-pilots-warn-of-goslow-20100820-138th.htmll)

I sense IF,ILS & FO's recency could also become a problem.

WoodenEye

22nd Aug 2010, 04:33

IMHO, using annoying industrial tactics to express displeasure with the proposed Jetstar Asia A330 operation ex Singapore, and/or whinging publicly about wages being undercut, will not be helpful.

Nonetheless, using tomorrow’s meeting to help formulate a Vision to help keep Qantas Jetstar Australian might be, and for the sake of Australia & its pilots, I trust that tomorrow’s turnout is overwhelming.

How effective any such Vision ultimately is, depends critically, I believe, on how interested pilots are in the future of Australian aviation and how prepared AIPA/AFAP are to work with our Aircraft Engineers to formulate a plan that will keep the industry as we know it anchored in Australia.

No I won’t be at tomorrow’s meeting McGrath. Am presently in the process of being refamiled on the 744 after 18 mths on the sideline. Nonetheless, have spoken to a number of people about what I believe needs to be done to keep our aviation industry in Australia and expect that my ideas will be tabled at the appropriate time and place.

Good luck! Trust all goes well and those who can attend come away feeling optimistic.

mcgrath50

22nd Aug 2010, 05:16

Fair enough, clearly you would if you could. Just wanted to check you put your money where your mouth is in the Think United front, glad to see you do and hopefully everyone is able to work optimistically together as you say.

I agree that affecting passengers is maybe not the best tactic, especially this early on in the campaign we want to get as many people onside as possible don't we?

blow.n.gasket

22nd Aug 2010, 05:55

From the ATO website:

Exempt foreign employment income - Changes to qualifying conditions effective from 1 July 2009

In the 2009-10 Federal Budget, the government announced changes to the exemption rules for foreign employment income derived by Australian residents who are engaged in foreign service for a continuous period of 91 days or more. The exemption is provided under section 23AG of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1936.
Tax Laws Amendment (2009 Budget Measures No. 1) Act 2009, which received royal assent on 29 June 2009, amended section 23AG to limit the exemption for foreign employment income to certain types of employment.
From 1 July 2009, an exemption from income tax on foreign employment income will only be available if your foreign service is directly attributable to any of the following:
http://www.pprune.org/PicExportError the delivery of Australian official development assistance by your employer
http://www.pprune.org/PicExportError the activities of your employer in operating a public fund declared by the Treasurer to be a developing country relief fund; or a public fund established and maintained to provide monetary relief to people in a developing foreign country that has experienced a disaster
http://www.pprune.org/PicExportError the activities of your employer as a prescribed institution that is exempt from Australian income tax
http://www.pprune.org/PicExportError deployment outside Australia by an Australian government (or an authority thereof) as a member of a disciplined force
http://www.pprune.org/PicExportError an activity of a kind specified in the regulations.
If the foreign service is not directly attributable to the activities mentioned above, you do not qualify for the exemption.
If you do not qualify for the exemption, the foreign employment income will need to be included in your tax return as assessable income and you may be entitled to a foreign income tax offset for amounts of foreign tax paid.
For more information

See: The Treasurer’s 2009 media release No.066 (http://www.treasurer.gov.au/DisplayDocs.aspx?doc=pressreleases/2009/066.htm&pageID=003&min=wms&Year=&DocType=0)
Changes to the taxing of foreign income (http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/00205945.htm&pc=001/009/041/002/003&mnu=&mfp=&st=&cy=1)

Jetstar's head of corporate relations, Simon Westaway, refused to comment on the pilots' plans, saying that the airline ''does not respond to speculative commentary''.

He said that more than 70 Jetstar pilots had expressed an interest in working on the new Singapore to Melbourne route where pilots would be ''well remunerated'' on''Singapore terms'' and ''enjoy the benefits of a Singapore basing, including their low tax environment''. He declined to comment on how much they would be paid.

Is Simon telling porkies???
Singaporean tax rate of 15%, me thinks not!
Ceveat Emptor !

404 Titan

22nd Aug 2010, 06:51

blow.n.gasket

Don’t get me wrong because I am very much on the side of you guys when it comes to what J* etc are doing to you but let me try and clear up one thing regarding tax issues in Australia. First the answer to whether you pay tax in Australia lies in the first sentence of the ATO explanation of the changes. That being:
In the 2009-10 Federal Budget, the government announced changes to the exemption rules for foreign employment income derived by Australian residents who are engaged in foreign service for a continuous period of 91 days or more.

You can be a citizen of Australia but at the same time be a non-resident for tax purposes. If you meet the requirements for non-residency by the ATO you will be classed as a non-resident for tax purposes. All the details can be found here:

Determination of residency status – leaving Australia (http://calculators.ato.gov.au/scripts/axos/axos.asp?CONTEXT=&KBS=residency_leaving.XR4)

What is up in the air is how the ATO will treat Australians flying Australian registered aircraft but based in Singapore. If memory serves me correctly QF were going to do this a few years ago with SO's and it opened a mine field.

Mr. Hat

22nd Aug 2010, 07:48

Pilots are happy to give as much as they possibly can. However, when the take gets out of control "annoying industrial tactics" are used as an absolute last ditch resort. In fact its the first time I've ever heard anyone in the Jetstar ranks doing anything of the sort. I suggest that they are a particularly tolerant and professional bunch. The fact that it has come to this indicates to me that they really have been pushed beyond their limit. In reading their EBA I have to say that limit is pretty far enough already.

Goodwill in the Australian workforce has become so common that its now the norm. People work countless free hours and do the extra bit to get the company over the line every week of every year. I'm one of these people. I strive everyday to achieve the highest standard for customers and company always. I pride myself on this as do my colleagues.

What we ask for in return is a modicum of respect and to at least maintain a standard of living. We're not asking for lavish lifestyles. We all understand globalisation and cost cutting within reason. We all support efficient operations. What we don't and won't support is:

1. Corner cutting on safety related issues
2. Industrial trickery and belligerence
3. Constant word games within our agreed EBA
4. Going only backwards always

I've seen first hand what an annoyed pilot group can do to the bottom line. It is really shocking. You save $1 by doing this he flushes $20,000 by doing that. Multiply that over 300 flights a day and all the penny pinching in the world will not save you.

Employers that strike the balance in the end will be the ones announcing the profits. They will attract and retain experienced staff and they will have happy satisfied customers that will return again and again. On this basis the brand is built into a reliable Australian staple.

At the end of the day if it gets through, and I suspect it will, Emirates will find the solution to their recruitment problem. You think you got OTP problems now. Gee whiz just wait till 20-30 pilots leave per month.

Every time a 10,000 hr guy/gal withdraws their services from the experience pool the company gets one step closer to that line which if crossed will close up the whole turn out.

Wake up Australia.

Keg

22nd Aug 2010, 08:08

From 404 Titan's link.

You are an Australian resident for taxation purposes after you depart Australia.

You provided the following information

Are you under 16 years of age? No
Are you or your spouse an eligible employee in the CSS or a member of the PSS? No
Are/were you an Australian resident for tax purposes immediately before leaving Australia? Yes
Are you a temporary resident leaving Australia to live in another country (or countries)? No
Are you an Australian resident who is emigrating to live permanently in another country? No
Where were you born? Australia
What do you consider to be your home country? Australia
Will you spend the majority of your time based in any one place while overseas? Yes
How long will you be based in that place while outside Australia? 2 to 5 years
What accommodation will you occupy most of the time that you are in this place? Rented dwelling house, flat, etc
Are you a dependent child? No
Are you travelling with or joining family members (e.g. spouse, dependent children) overseas? All family members
Do you plan to return to Australia more than four times every year? Yes
What are your plans for your Australian home? Rent out pending my return
How often do you expect to visit Australia while you are based overseas? At least every 3 months

If you're response is that you won't return to Australia more than four times a year it says you're not an Australian resident for tax purposes.

404 Titan

22nd Aug 2010, 08:54

Keg

This probably highlights the difference in working for an Australian company abroad and a foreign company abroad.

If the contract is an indefinite one abroad then this ATO residency tool can’t answer the question to residency status. Each case would be different but if your family went with you and you had no Australian income except rental property etc then you would most likely be considered a non-resident for tax purposes. Likewise if the intention of the person is to leave Australia permanently then they are non-residents for tax purposes, though, I will concede this is easier to substantiate if you are working for a foreign company than an Australian company.

As I don't know the details of the contract that is being offered it is hard to say how the ATO would treat someone accepting it.

dodgybrothers

22nd Aug 2010, 09:02

they'll be flying from SIN to MEL. So unless CASA is prepared to allow F and D limits of 24 hrs then they will be overnighting so visiting every week, therefore not a foreign resident and will have to pay oz tax.

404 Titan

22nd Aug 2010, 09:27

dodgybrothers

Time in Australia isn’t necessarily the only determinant as to ones residency status for tax purposes. Generally the Commissioner of Taxation in determining where a person resides, using the normal meaning of the word, considers more than six months as residing.

By George

22nd Aug 2010, 09:35

Dodgybrothers with all due respect you are not correct, 'Titan' and 'Keg' have it basically correct although another thing to consider is Private Health Insurance. You cannot remain with private cover in Aus. You also have to surrender your 'Medi-Card' and cannot contribute to an Aussie Super Scheme. If your principle address is off-shore, together with your employment and your country of residence has a tax agreement with Australia you don't pay Aussie tax on those earnings. You do, obviously pay aussie tax on any Aussie income, Shares, Bank interest etc. They are constantly changing the rules and the easiest thing is to contact them for a private ruling or go through a tax agent. I can come home 90 days a year, some have more, God knows why its different. You also cannot hold an ASIC, but can wander about the tarmac on your overseas ID as if you own the place. The only problem I can see is if they consider Jet Star an Australian company, again a private ruling will answer that one.

psycho joe

22nd Aug 2010, 10:38

You also have to surrender your 'Medi-Card'

As an Australian citizen I never had to surrender my Medicare card.:hmm:

There are four basic tests that you must not satisfy to be considered a non resident.

Resides test
Domicile test
183 Day test
Superanuation test

An example from the ATO;

Bronwyn – an extended job overseas
Facts
Bronwyn, a resident of Australia, has received a job offer to work overseas for three years, with the option to extend for another three years.

Bronwyn, her husband and three children decide to make the move.

They retain their property in Australia, as they intend to return one day.

The house will be rented out during their absence.

Bronwyn is uncertain whether she will extend the option to stay after three years, and will decide later, depending on how the family like the life there.

While overseas, they will rent a house with an accommodation allowance provided under her contract.

Outcome: why is Bronwyn considered a non-resident?

The following table outlines the reasons why the four residency tests were not satisfied.

Test
This test is not satisfied because...

Residency - the resides test
the length of Bronwyn’s physical absence from Australia and the surrounding circumstances (such as establishing a home overseas with her family and renting out her family home in Australia) are not consistent with residing in Australia, even though she has retained the family home in Australia.

Residency - the domicile test

her permanent place of abode is outside Australia due to:

the length of time she has committed to spending overseas
establishment of a home overseas, and
her family accompanying her.
the fact that she will not be selling the home in Australia, although relevant, is not persuasive enough to overcome the finding on the basis of the other factors.
it is arguable that she has abandoned her home in Australia for the duration of her stay, by renting it out.

Residency - the 183 day test
this does not apply from the date of her departure for overseas.

Residency - the superannuation test
this does not apply.

Find a good accountant. You can be a non resident for tax purposes without being afraid of the ATO boogyman.