Pilots of Australia - time to unite - Meeting Aug 23

[By George]

During leave several years ago I made a Medicare claim. The girl behind the desk typed away and suddenly said, "Oh you're listed as a non resident and I am required to keep this card". She subsequently cut it in two and called out, "Next!" Maybe I should come home via Ashmore Reef next time.

[A37575]

A range of go-slow or work-to-rule measures are being considered by the pilots, including:


Wasn't that the first action by the AFAP leading to the 1989 strike? Seems the lesson wasn't learned and that history will repeat itself.

[lemel]

Unless BB is best mates with the Australian PM who is willing to give jetstar over $100 million to help the airline out during any industrial action, get the military to fly for jetstar when it's pilots won't, amend immigration laws so that scabs can come work for nothing and lastly, force CASA to amend their minimum requirements, then I don't see how history is going to repeat itself.

[3 Holer]

Well said That Man! :ok:

[Mr. Hat]

Latest Headline

Telstra BigPond News and Weather (http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Business/2010/08/23/Jetstar_braces_for_strike_action_503306.html)



Jetstar braces for strike action
Monday, August 23, 2010 » 09:11am


Jetstar pilots will meet today to plan industrial action over wage and working conditions.

More than 100 pilots will consider a range of possible protests, that could disrupt services.

They're angry at being encouraged to transfer to the airline's new Singapore-Melbourne route, where they won't be employed under Australian laws.

Instead they'll be employed under Singapore laws, despite flying Australian-registered planes into Australia.

[Counter-rotation]

To all those atending today, please accept my apologies - a combination of geography and rostering prevents me from being there...

Slight thread drift re: taxation (although it is a good discussion), I'd like to bring things back to the central theme.

Any suggestion that the company is considering this in the interests of "creating opportunities for Australian pilots" or whatever, is ABSOLUTE RUBBISH - to state the obvious. For two reasons:

1) It provides no tangible opportunities (other than to be further exploited) to Australian pilots

2) Basically, they are philosophically opposed to doing ANYTHING in the interest of pilots!

I honestly thought I would never see a display of unity even close to what we are seeing here, in my working life!! Well done to all, where bitter feelings from the past have been overlooked for the benefit of the future. This doesn't happen easily, and I'd like to acknowledge it...

Good luck (but luck's got nothing to do with it, as they say! Kind of like a sim check :ok: ) Preparation, and focus is the key... :D

CR.

[Bo777]

Remember United we stand, divided we fall. I cant make it due work. All the best. :ok:

[Servo]

I was hoping to make but due to circumstances out of my control cannot make it :sad: My appologies. It is about to start and I wish I could be there to show my support.

Pitty no one could have web cast it, but I suppose that would allow people to see the meeting that otherwise would not be welcome!

Good luck guys. Sidelined but supportive!

[thrustpig]

Regionally competitive in VH Guise........

Is there a future for Aussie Pilots??
Is there a future for Aussie Cabin Crew??
Is there a future for Aussie Engineers??
Is there a future for Aussie Office Staff??

What will your quality of life be in 3, 5, 10 years time??

Will you even have an aussie aviation job??

[Normasars]

Apologies also to everyone. Would loved to have attended, in my old job I could have, but unfortunately not today. Geographically challenged to say the least.

I wish you ALL the very best and am thinking of you now. Keep emotions in check and stick together. :ok:

regards to all

Norma

[OneDotLow]

Hey all,

Apologies again that I couldn't attend as I was working, but does anyone have a report on what was said/numbers etc?

Cheers!

[built4flying83]

how did the meeting go? anyone?

[rmcdonal]

Lots of people (as in 100s), lots of talk about unity, all voted in favour of the motion, now AIPA will send a stern letter to Bruce Buchanan and hope he doesn't just bin it.

[Keg]

Meeting was good although I had to bail out about 1505.

I'd say that there at least 250 pilots there. I was seated in the forward section of 50 and so didn't get a good luck behind me. It was certainly standing room only though with lots of people at the back and around the walls. If someone said the final count was 350+ I wouldn't be surprised.

From the show of hands it appeared to be about evenly split between J* and QF crew. A smattering of DJ and QF Link crew indicated they were there but I wasn't sure how many. There was at least one Tiger bloke (he identified himself as such) and another guy from a ME carrier but I don't know whether it was Emirates, Etihad, etc.

J* A320 F/O spoke well on a range of subjects citing importance of unity, pilot engagement, flexibilities J* already provided, etc.

Motions put forward were unanimously carried. I won't go into detail on those as no doubt AIPA will be forwarding those on to J* when appropriate and/or including them as part of a media release.

Lots of discussion regarding the importance of unity. ACTU bloke spoke shortly and well. Support also from ALAEA who were present at the meeting.

Also discussion as to what is protected and what is not protected as industrial action. Also a short discussion as to what is industrial action and what is not. Emphasis on the various unions not organising industrial action.

Some discussion as to what can be achieved and how. Support is important to ensure that the negotiators have good backing.

J* A320 AFAP rep reports that J* reporting to him that 85 EOIs for the SIN base but some indication from others present that many of those EOIs would be to simply see what the T&Cs were. ME pilot reckoned that expats in the ME weren't going to be coming home to flog around for 900 hours short haul on T&Cs less than half of what they were on now.

Media were present for initial parts of it. Ch 10 had a camera crew for part of it. That's about all I can remember off the top of my head.

Overall good tone and worthwhile. I was particularly pleased to see fantastic attendance by some very senior QF captains. I counted at least 20 744 or A380 captains and that was just the blokes I recognised straight away in the front half of the room. Realistically this doesn't affect them at all but they understand what it means for the industry so to those blokes, thanks for attending.

PS: Silversleuth has been pretty quiet since his post on 11 Aug saying that he thought hell may freeze over before he saw a QF captain support J* crew. :rolleyes: On top of those 20 senior guys, I know of another 10 767 and A330 mainline Captains that were there.

[mustman]

Well done to all those attended. Wish I could have been there but like many others I am geographically challenged.

Remember there are many many many more pilots who are supporting what is going on!

Good stuff boys and girls!:ok:

[j3pipercub]

Also Geographically challenged and on Reserve today.

Keg, thanks for the summary of the meeting.

350+ is a beautiful number!!! Maybe everyone has finally gotten sick of bending over.

That has made my day!!!

j3

[c173]

just heard it on fox fm

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

About the third story on ABC News radio (country wide). I thought pretty favourable as well.

Well done everyone.

[girl with a stick]

I was at the back, and would say there were easily 300 people.

Totally inspiring meeting, (even though I'm only in GA), it was splendid to see such unity - so many guys from other carriers such as Q Link and Virgin Blue.

And, Silversleuth, I guess Satan will be skating to work tomorrow, as I was sitting next to a Qantas A330 captain!

GWaS

[rmcdonal]

Jetstar plan September go-slow
Paul Bibby
August 23, 2010 - 5:56PM

A meeting of four hundred mainly Jetstar and Qantas pilots has been encouraged to "not to do the airline any favours" next month - setting the scene for a go-slow that could cause delays for passengers across the network.

In an unprecedented show of unity, pilots from across the country packed into Sydney's Wolli Creek Rowers Club this afternoon to express their anger over the employment arrangements proposed by Jetstar as part of its expansion into Asia and Europe.

The media was excluded from most of the meeting, but a source close to the pilots said some had called for a strike as soon as tomorrow.

Officials from the Australian and International Pilots Association dissuaded the pilots from doing this - it would be considered illegal industrial action. But the source said the pilots were encouraged to "do what they could within the law".

This included refusing to show up early for pre-flight planning needed to ensure flights depart on time.

It is understood they are also considering refusing to work outside their scheduled hours to fill in for sick colleagues or to meet increased demand, and refusing to take on more than a minimum load of fuel, so that if there is an in-flight delay as a result of weather or air traffic, flights will have to be diverted.

"We don't want to do anything that will cause delays to passengers," a Jetstar pilot who declined to be named, said.

"But we do want Jetstar and Qantas to stop undermining our wages and conditions and opportunities to progress through the company by putting pilots into shelf companies where our EBA (enterprise bargaining agreement" doesn't apply."

Under the Jetstar's plans to expand into Asia, pilots will be transferred to the airline's new Singapore-Melbourne route where - despite flying Australian-registered A330 aircraft into Australia - they will be employed on private contracts under Singapore laws.

Singapore and Vietnam-based pilots would also be transferred to Australia where they would not be employed under the Jetstar Australia employment agreement, but through a "new Jetstar Group company" that would only be required to pay the award rate.

The pilots passed a unanimous motion declaring this strategy to be "an offensive attempt by Jetstar management...to pit pilots against each other to secure their careers". They also declared that they "no longer have confidence Bruce Buchanan as the Group Chief Executive Officer of the Jetstar group".

Every pilot was provided with printed extracts from the Fair Work Act explaining what actions they could take without being considered to have taken illegal industrial action.

Under the heading, "Industrial action does not include the following", was listed "the employee did not unreasonably fail to comply with a direction of his or her employer to perform other available work...that was safe and appropriate for the employee to perform".

Jetstar's head of corporate relations, Simon Westaway, said there had been rumours of a go-slow by Jetstar pilots for some time, but the airline's on-time performance figures remained among the highest of any Australian airline.

"We've got a good, tight airline that is committed to the best service delivery to customers," Mr Westaway said.

Jetstar plan September go-slow (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/jetstar-plan-september-goslow-20100823-13i9y.html)

[Keg]

The media was excluded from most of the meeting, but a source close to the pilots said some had called for a strike as soon as tomorrow.

If this did happen it occurred after I left at 1505. The media were present when I left but had been excluded prior to that. No one called for strike action at any stage when the media were excluded. Comments from the AIPA reps whilst I was there did not encourage anything. They simply outlined what was illegal industrial action and what was not considered industrial action. They certainly stressed pilot unity.

Perhaps those statements regarding strike action occurred after I left but as I mentioned, the media were present then and would have heard it first hand- and who said it. The reality is quite different to what has been reported.

[Popgun]

Well done guys and gals, this proves we can stand together!

Thanks to Keg et al for posting a summary for those of us too far away to attend.

I'm optimistic that with determination we can turn this rot around.

PG

:ok:

[Normasars]

Westaway and co would have to be the most dysfunctional and out of touch management team in any industry worldwide today.

The cr@p that eminates from the Jetstar PR machine knows no bounds. Absolute and utter garbage. Can a management team possibly be more out of touch with reality??

The spin doctors will be working overtime for the foreseeable future, painting the pilots as "overpaid, underworked silvertails". The media will side with the Company as usual. Emotions must be kept in check; do not get into a slanging match, and most importantly remain calm and dignified.

The Company will employ all soughts of dirty tricks and campaigns to derail the gathering momentum.

Stay united.

[rmcdonal]

... but a source close to the pilots said some had called for a strike as soon as tomorrow.
This did not happen.

[stainedpantystealer]

Video from Ch10 news...

TEN Video Player: Watch Full Episodes and Exclusive Video Interviews (http://ten.com.au/video-player.htm?channel=News+Daily&clipid=2683_news-jetstar-230810&bitrate=300&format=flash)

[Tankengine]

A good turnout, 300+ I reckon,:ok:

Great to hear Pilots from all the airlines get together with a united goal and put aside old differences. Beers later with guys that would not have drunk together only a few years ago.:D

I think the managers of all the airlines should be worried for any bonus they think they deserve for screwing us!:E

[Counter-rotation]

Thanks Keg, on behalf of all who could not attend...

300+ in attendance, who knows how many across the country (the world?) watching with interest, and in support - nothing short of fantastic.

To those who had a hand in planning, preparing, organising, promoting this event in any way - please accept my sincere thanks for your efforts, however large or small.

THIS IS THE START, NOT THE FINISH - remember that! :ok:

It's very important, as some have already said - although it can be an emotive issue, every effort to keep the emotion in check is required. You lose your cool, you lose your cred :ouch:

Also discussion as to what is protected and what is not protected as industrial action. Also a short discussion as to what is industrial action and what is not. Emphasis on the various unions not organising industrial action.

That is gold - action from an informed and educated position is so much more likely to be effective!

Is there any way for those not present, to get a copy of any literature that was distributed?

Again, well done all.

CR :D

[woody744]

To all that was there, it was an awesome sight. Pilots from every major airline in attendance and as Keg said some extremely senior pilots there to show their support which was great.


For those who did go, remember to spread the word. Australian pilots = Australian flying = Australian wages.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

There was at least one Tiger bloke (he identified himself as such) and another guy from a ME carrier but I don't know whether it was Emirates, Etihad, etc.


(even though I'm only in GA)

How good is that. Thanks you.

AIPA, VIPA, AFAP, JPC etc......No more excuses. "Australian Pilots Association" (including GA).

[t_cas]

Great to hear, flew into and past Sydney today on duty up and down the coast. would have liked to have been there.

100% behind the effort.

Thanks to those who made their appearance count for many.

[Private Patjarr]

Interesting to see how it will be reported by some

Maybe unlikely to be reported by Ch7 (Jetstar sponsors Sunrise) or Ch9 (QF Inflight news).

Great turnout. Thanks to those who spoke (great to see QF Capts vowing their support too).

Unity is the key.

[The Green Goblin]

Time to unite guys, I'm glad something is finally happening that is positive for us all.

If the Pilots could do it in the US recently, I'm sure we can too. Hopefully we can pin on the wings and walk through the terminal with our heads held high once again, instead of avoiding eye contact with the punters as we scurry through the halls to our fortified office.

One for all and all for one!

[Maggot-Slug]

Call me a communist but its also time to make a kick back where it will hurt. To stop these cost cutting, terms and conditions eroding, corporate fat cats from paying themselves millions of dollars from their respective companies in the form of bonuses and shares, the government needs to change the taxation laws. A taxation rate of 99c in the dollar for taxable income above $1M would restrict how much these people can rip out from their companies' profits.
How can anyone justify $1M+ salaries for pushing papers around and slashing costs by cutting workers pay and conditions. This is not just restricted to airline executives. Bank CEOs spring to mind, as I'm sure there are many other examples.

[Dj Dave]

PM - 400 Jetstar pilots protest over offshore jobs 23/08/2010 (http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2010/s2991116.htm)

[Clipster]

Sitting in that room with the other aviation professionals it really did feel like we were on the way back from the brink. Thanks to everyone who spoke , showed up and backed the day in any way shape or form.

Special mention to the mainline , vb , tiger and ga pilots .

FSO 136 will go down as the wonderful management idea that brought back pilot unity after a rather lengthy break.

good job people

[A. Le Rhone]

Westaway suggests some gutlessness amongst Jetstar pilots? Hollow threats?His point - Go-slows have been threatened but never acted upon.

From Fairfax media today...

Jetstar plan September go-slow
Paul Bibby
August 23, 2010 - 5:56PM
A meeting of four hundred mainly Jetstar and Qantas pilots has been encouraged to "not to do the airline any favours" next month - setting the scene for a go-slow that could cause delays for passengers across the network.

In an unprecedented show of unity, pilots from across the country packed into Sydney's Wolli Creek Rowers Club this afternoon to express their anger over the employment arrangements proposed by Jetstar as part of its expansion into Asia and Europe.

The media was excluded from most of the meeting, but a source close to the pilots said some had called for a strike as soon as tomorrow.

Officials from the Australian and International Pilots Association dissuaded the pilots from doing this - it would be considered illegal industrial action. But the source said the pilots were encouraged to "do what they could within the law".

This included refusing to show up early for pre-flight planning needed to ensure flights depart on time.

It is understood they are also considering refusing to work outside their scheduled hours to fill in for sick colleagues or to meet increased demand, and refusing to take on more than a minimum load of fuel, so that if there is an in-flight delay as a result of weather or air traffic, flights will have to be diverted.

"We don't want to do anything that will cause delays to passengers," a Jetstar pilot who declined to be named, said.

"But we do want Jetstar and Qantas to stop undermining our wages and conditions and opportunities to progress through the company by putting pilots into shelf companies where our EBA (enterprise bargaining agreement" doesn't apply."

Under the Jetstar's plans to expand into Asia, pilots will be transferred to the airline's new Singapore-Melbourne route where - despite flying Australian-registered A330 aircraft into Australia - they will be employed on private contracts under Singapore laws.

Singapore and Vietnam-based pilots would also be transferred to Australia where they would not be employed under the Jetstar Australia employment agreement, but through a "new Jetstar Group company" that would only be required to pay the award rate.

The pilots passed a unanimous motion declaring this strategy to be "an offensive attempt by Jetstar management...to pit pilots against each other to secure their careers". They also declared that they "no longer have confidence Bruce Buchanan as the Group Chief Executive Officer of the Jetstar group".

Every pilot was provided with printed extracts from the Fair Work Act explaining what actions they could take without being considered to have taken illegal industrial action.

Under the heading, "Industrial action does not include the following", was listed "the employee did not unreasonably fail to comply with a direction of his or her employer to perform other available work...that was safe and appropriate for the employee to perform".

Jetstar's head of corporate relations, Simon Westaway, said there had been rumours of a go-slow by Jetstar pilots for some time, but the airline's on-time performance figures remained among the highest of any Australian airline.

"We've got a good, tight airline that is committed to the best service delivery to customers," Mr Westaway said.

[like_that]

This is sad I have been discussing this issue with members and volunteers at an aeroclub where I am employed and too many say the industry has gone to the dogs, as a new grade III this is a sad start to a career I have dreamed of for a long time. With all the cadetships, the financial crisis and now the threat of jobs going offshore I see students starting to questions why they are doing their CPL's anymore. I tell them to be positive and do not give up on your dream and it is when others unite and fight to good fight it gives me hope that there are still those willing to make a stand. :ok:

So now I ask what can I do to help?

[teresa green]

Onya, all of you. You are now longer living in the shadow of 89, at last you have moved on, you have now become a force to be dealt with, keep the ball rolling, you deserve better, us 89ers are cheering!:D

[psycho joe]

...and refusing to take on more than a minimum load of fuel, so that if there is an in-flight delay as a result of weather or air traffic, flights will have to be diverted.


Considering that the accountants would absolutely love Pilots to take min fuel, I don't see how that hurts the company on a day to day basis.

Personally I'd be vowing to tanker as much fuel as possible & watch the delta burn go through the roof. :E

[girl with a stick]

I totally agree like that...

Sunday, I was on the brink of giving up the CPL (again!), disillusioned by the whole industry.

After attending the meeting, my fighting spirit was renewed...it was staggering to see such a turn-out, such solidarity and support, with a focus on the industry rather than individual benefits.

And although I'm not an AIPA member, or in any way involved in the airlines, I feel we in GA can watch and learn from yesterday's meeting....if we had that sort of togetherness in GA, perhaps we wouldn't have such shiiite T&Cs ourselves.

GWaS

[like_that]

Thank you girl with a stick,

This 'disillusion' can be contagious. My head drops when I hear a pilot whine and complain about the current situation and joke how you would have a better career elsewhere.

I completely agree, a united front would benefit many hopefully one day for those in GA.

Don't give up!!

[7x7]

Today (24th August) is the 21st anniversary of the day many would say that the rot that sees Australian aviation in the sorry state it's in today set in - the day the domestic pilots resigned en masse (the vast - and I mean vast - majority of them unknowingly, but let's not go there),

Gents, let me wish you well with all my heart.

I'm so glad to see, after all this time, that someone has at last cried "enough!". There'll be the naysayers, the company stooges, those looking to take advantage of the situation, the gloom and doomers... and any number of dirty tricks by (the misnamed) management. You simply have to stick together and stay within the law - and most importantly, keep the public informed of your side of the story by employing a professional PR company, because the companies will be spreading the 'underworked, fat cat, silver-tailed pilots' line to everyone who'll listen - and too many of the Australian Great Unwashed are all too ready to believe that.

[breakfastburrito]

The Burrito attended a fantastic meeting yesterday to show support for my colleges.
Accolades: Organisers of the meeting. Special hat tip to Joe Eakins who gave an excellent speech, hopefully AIPA will make this available in some form & all attendee's.

Others have done a good job of summarising proceedings, so I want to touch on another theme that I see running in this thread - those that desired to be at the meeting (to be honest, you wouldn't have fitted), but couldn't for all sorts of reasons. This group wants to know what they can do. Here's my take.

Barry Jackson spoke of the need for the action to come from the bottom up - Negotiators need leverage in order to be able to negotiate from a position of strength. What he is really saying is that there is only so much the unions can do without the support of the members & the industry. This is YOU.

This was reiterated by the gentleman from the ME - his comments were that we were able to organise, unlike some other pilots in less "free" regions of the world. He also pointed out that there were numerous Oz Expats who kept looking and rejecting the T&C's offered by the LCC's here as a "retirement job", because after doing 900 hours a year longhaul, didn't want to do 900 shorthaul on poor conditions. Don't fear the "returning Expat" syndrome to further drive down T&C's. Hat tip to you sir for your bravery & words.

This situation will continue to deteriorate with apathy and waiting for the Unions to solve "the issue". You need to take personal responsibility to improve your own circumstances. The unions will do whatever they can to support you, however, the resolution to this is going to be across a negotiating table. To support the negotiators we at the grass routes need to stand together & do our bit by providing the leverage.

So, here's an action plan for everyone, especially those that couldn't attend:

Unite get under the AusALPA unbrella.
Join a union affiliated with AusALPA - AIPA, AFAP or VIPA.
Write to AIPA, AFAP or VIPA - tell them that you have their support. Ask for you mobile & email address for this campaign to be added to their contact list.
Talk - to your colleges & mates about what is going on. Convince them taking a SIN base is a short term job gain for long term career destruction.
Organise geographic GA groups, either through PPRuNe or other means. Get AIPA or AFAP involved. Natural centres for this would be ADL, PER, DRW, ASP, CNS & the northwest WA region.
Ensure that you are working for at least minimum award conditions - the Air Pilots Award 2010 (http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/modern_awards/pdf/MA000046.pdf). Don't work for free, don't sell yourselves short.
Write to your local member of parliament. Explain to them that the Labour, Tax & immigration laws are being subverted by these contrived shell company schemes. Point out the excellent safety record & the wealth of experience. Point out any "pilot shortage" is in fact a T&C shortage - experience just won't come home for the poor T&C on offer. Point out that whilst the pay is lower in Asia, these pilots are generally fully trained by their respective companies. This is the worst of all scenario's for Australians - Pay for all your own training and be paid third world rates as if someone else has spent the money to train you. A true double wammy.
Write to the lower house independents & the Greens - The independents are particularly interested in Air travel issues as they are all regionally based & therefore heavily dependant upon the stability of this industry. They likely hold the balance of power & will be able to exert significant pressure in our favour if they can see the logic of our arguments.

Unions contact pages:

AIPA (http://aipa.org.au/ContactUs/tabid/59/Default.aspx)
AFAP (http://afap.org.au/html/s02_article/default.asp?nav_top_id=115&nav_cat_id=254)
VIPA (http://www.vipa.asn.au/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=1&Itemid=7)

Contact List: Independents/Greens contact pages:

Rob Oakshott (http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/member.asp?id=IYS)
Bob Katter (http://www.bobkatter.com.au/emailbob.html)
Tony Windsor (http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/member.asp?id=9LP)
The Greens (http://greens.org.au/our-story/contact)


Ladies & gentlemen, the ball is now in your court.

[A. Le Rhone]

And most importantly don't forget the PR Spin of Safety, Safety, Safety.

Australian airlines must utilise Australian pilots - Australian trained and Australian licenced pilots with a defined minimum experience level.

This is not just PR spin either. I genuinely wouldn't let my family fly on a number of overseas airlines but I'm in the know about which airlines are killers. Why should the Australian public risk this scenario just because some ladder climbing CEO wants to line his pocket with bigger bonus payments because he's saved money by employing potentially very dodgy but cheap non-Australian licenced or trained pilots?

It's mind boggling that it's even considered. Part of me suggests that it's not really being considered at all, it's just a tactic to engender fear in you guys and inflict even poorer working conditions on you.

You have taken the first step to ensure that not only are those poorer conditions rejected but that you finally claw back some of the conditions already lost.

Create a truly united union that focuses only on 2010 Forward and combined with the looming/already happening global pilot shortage you will be unbeatable.

[The Green Goblin]

VIPA/AIPA and AFAP just don't seem to be on the same page anymore. They still seem to be bickering about their own differences rather than getting on with the job and supporting their members wishes.

Perhaps a change from the top is in order, or, we simply start a new union which embraces all it's members equally and uses the increased revenue from the fatcats at the top to support and gain loyalty from the pups down below.

How do we get into the contact and email list? If we can have en email address posted here and can reply with our contact details, company and ARN as proof we are not management trolls.

United we stand.

[prox acc]

So . . . AIPA handing out information on why you can't take industrial action . . . sounds like another meeting I was at where Alana Stark did exactly that but, I suspect, for slightly different reasons. Same effect though - neutralises the option and degrades the newsworthiness of the issue and the meeting overall.

Guess what - if you are really concerned about the issue of standards or pay or whatever it is - you don't rule out industrial action. Another example of amateur hour at AIPA. Similarly, having called the meeting - what do they do? The very gentlemanly option of a "no confidence" motion - just proves how ineffectual the exercise was.

As others have written - it needs to be about SAFETY! Damage to the brand is what hurts Qantas and J* - it's why Sue Bussell made reference to it in her recent speech on the Fair Work Act:

'Unions wrong to use safety to attack Qantas

Bussell lambasted those unions that had used safety issues as a bargaining tactic.

"There is an unfortunate tendency for a small number of unions to damage the employer brand" as a way of, or "instead of, bargaining", she said.

They were borrowing from the US model and "using safety as a tactic", she said.'

You said it Sue - and it hurts that's why it's effective.

On the other hand - the meeting should have encouraged QF and J* crew in regard ot he support they have from their colleagues and the need to be more unified in their approach to the underlying job security issue.

However, the issue of offshoring jobs needs to be run as a campaign in all it's component parts. Who would run a meeting like this on the first business day after a Federal Election when, regardless of the outcome, election news would dominate. The report on PM didn't come on until 6.40 with election news dominating. The saving grace was the FO who was interviewed - did an excellent interview and was very compelling. He should immediately be co-opted to the AIPA COM.

By comparison listen to the AIPA President from a couple of weeks ago - just awful:

Pilots angry over Jetstar's new 'group' company - Radio National Breakfast - 23 July 2010 (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/breakfast/stories/2010/2961915.htm)

Or Woody's garbled message on ABC Radio news on Saturday.

Maybe AIPA can tell us what follow up is planned? What is the ongoing media strategy - what follow ups are planned? OF course, I would ask what the political strategy is except we don't have a Federal Government at the moment. What follow up with CASA? Or a dozen other key players?

By the way - just an observation - AIPA is now taking QF to court, attempting to get some media traction, is working with the ACTU, has a LH EA in the offing and is contemplating pilot unity - what year is it? Try 2008 . . .

The more things change . . . the more they stay the same . . . except 2 valuable years have been wasted.

[WoodenEye]

AIPA, AFAP & VIPA are well aware of the representation model used to unite all British airlines and pilots under the BALPA umbrella.

That the ‘Will to Unite’ has not been forthcoming down-under is indeed a worry.

Hopefully the creation of the Australian Pilots Association (APA) will now be forthcoming.

Without it, directing Australia’s aviation industry will increasingly fall to those who believe that the pursuit of profit maximisation has no obligation to sustainable quality outcomes built over generations on government largess and military standards, but now taken for granted by just about all.

No APA = No chance.

Think United!

[The Green Goblin]

How do we get the ball rolling and would the very senior members who have devoted so much time into their unions be prepared to give something like that a go?

We need a union to be something that you want (and need) to be a part of rather than an option to get access to the MBF with a bit litigation security etc etc.

The union needs to be as active in the entry level GA side of the industry as it is in the issues at the top end of town.

Being an AFAP member I'd love to see them step up to the plate and do the right thing. I'm sure they would have everyones support if they got involved at ground level with us all.

[Counter-rotation]

Well said bb :D

Ladies & gentlemen, the ball is now in your court

I have written a bit of an email here, feel free to use it as a bit of a template (in fact, that's the idea)... Now, I never professed to be a "Roads Skolar" :E :E so I'm hoping that those out there who are more eloquent than I (ahem, Sherm - are you there? ;)) will use it as a start, to write something which could perhaps be sent en masse from members, to their respective industrial representative body.

Perhaps I am naive, but I would hate to see all this unity (that has been so lacking in the past), miss it's full potential!!

Cheers,
CR

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good afternoon xxxx,

I'm sure when I refer to the recent "meeting", you will be in no doubt as to what I am referring to! I am sending this email to you, as Manager, Industrial Relations, at xxxx, to make clear my sentiments with respect to these developments, as a(n) xxxx member.

Specifically,

1) Whilst unable to attend the meeting, I wish to express my full support for the sentiments of those who attended. [maybe -]I am at present not directly affected, however proposals to create crewing structures allowing "off-shoring" concern me tremendously.
2) Assuming that xxxx had representatives present, I would as a member, request a formal account of the discussions in general, and any motions proposed and carried.
3) I would expect to see xxxx using every means possible, to raise public awareness of the behaviour of this employer, in attempting to use smoke and mirrors to move Australian jobs, under Australian IR laws, offshore - for the sole reason of obtaining the labour cheaper than they presently can. This should be coupled with strong comment on the obvious safety implications of making these positions untenable to experienced, well-trained Australian pilots.

[maybe - AFAP have sent some out, refer to earlier comment in this thread]
I understand, and am pleased to see, that several letters and submissions to this effect have already been sent. They need to be vigourously followed up.

Generally,

I would like to express my delight in the show of unity at St George Rowing Club!

Some of those pilots attending were xxxx members, some were not, and they were from a range of different employers, which could have perhaps in the past seen them considered as rivals, or adversaries, to some extent. They have come together, to present a united front, in the face of very worrying developments, and further proposals, by management at certain employers.

I would like to ask, that just as these pilots have done, xxxx remains focused on the future in this issue, and as such can work as closely as possible with yyyy, zzzz, and any other industry bodies who's members also have a great stake in the outcome. I expect this as a member, and believe that many other members feel the same.

Please note, I would ask exactly the same of those other industrial bodies, however I am not a member there. I sincerely hope that their own members echo these same sentiments, in turn, to their management.

Sincerely,
[insert name :ok:]

[jibba_jabba]

Nice,

unfortunately I couldnt make it, but full support! Here goes my printer!

lets take the power back!

[victor two]

For gods sake... I only log in and check pprune about 3 times a year for a laugh. Last time I logged on the same stuff was being thrashed out.

I ejected out of that idiot infested industry years ago over the same issues that are still being beaten to death today for a far more interesting career. Best thing i ever did - great money, lots of opportunity, overly generous employers who invest in me and reward my efforts and I can guarantee that i will never be out of work as long as I want it and where I want to live. Best of all, almost no pathetic unions talking about what happened 30 year ago.

I respect you guys for fighting the good fight but I think you are wasting your time. Go have your pilot meeting but let me promise you:
You wont win.
You wont change a thing.
Youi never had "the power" so dont expect to win it back.
Most of you will cave in and roll over on day one.
The company will always outsmart you or out negotiate you.
Your little $2.57 payment per week to your union mates will do nothing to stop company plans.
Your jobs will be sent whenever they want them sent.
You will be probably working harder next year for less remuneration.
You will still be pecking at the little tray of aeroplane food off your lap at 3am over the ocean absolutely hating the dropkick sitting beside you in another year.

Good luck but this landmark meeting will be another pilot winge-fest and will not have influenced the stategic directions of large employers by one single millimeter. They have you by the plums and they know it. Deep down, you know it also.

I dont know why people continue to do it. Flying really isn't that interesting anymore. To those effected, enjoy living in Saigon or Taipei or whatever asian smog hole they pack you off to. I'll log in in another few months and see how well you all get on.


Good luck boys and girls.

[teresa green]

Wooden Eye, right on the money, APA is the answer, does not matter if you are airline, RFDS, GA, freight dogs, wombats, You are UNBEATABLE all together, most companies will think twice before shafting any of you, AS LONG AS YOU STICK TOGETHER, keep the ball rolling, you are on the right track.:D

[FFG 02]

"I ejected out of that idiot infested industry years ago"

Yep but you are still on an aviation forum??????

I guess maybe then you still do give a crap because you can take the boy outta aviation but...


Attended yesterday and it was a great showing.

When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of its momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing.
Sun Tzu

[Gear in transit]

I'd like to say a big thankyou to all whom attended. I work for onestar and am very impressed with my colleagues attendance and show if unity.
I'd also like to thank everyone else outside Jq who attended, your show of support really IS appreciated.

[Aussie]

From an Aussie Driver living and working OS.... Good on ya guys!!! :ok::ok:

[prairiegirl]

Take these conversations to a secure site and out of public view.

Hire a marketing company - it is easy to get caught up in the passion of this subject, however passion will be misconstrued for whinging by the general public. And you need the general public to get the attention of the lawmakers.

Full-time earnings in Australia averaged A$64,594 a year in the first quarter of 2010.

It will be terribly difficult to quantify back to a $64,594 wage earner, even with the low unemployment rate, why you are waging this war. And quantify it you must!

It will be even more difficult to outsmart the company.

You're good at flying aeroplanes. That skill set rarely translates into the ability to send out a message that the general public will understand and empathise with.

Take the emotion out of this and put it in a secure place and hire professionals to fight this fight. That is precisely what your competitors are doing.

[eternity]

"hire professionals to fight this fight. That is precisely what your competitors are doing."



Damn good point

[Mstr Caution]

Refusing to take on more than a minimum load of fuel, so that if there is an in-flight delay as a result of weather or air traffic, flights will have to be diverted;

''If a flight is delayed, he won't try to make up time in the air - it'll be steady as she goes.''


Don't get me wrong, I'm pro pilot here.

However, don't under-estimate the response of the entity you work for.

I am concerned, a collegue(s) less informed may be the fall guy/girl for the greater good of the pilot community.

A company will take action against any person(s) engaged in activities which don't align with the "Standards of Conduct" you were provided on initial employment.

What the meeting failed to address is what these obligations are & how a company views breaches of such obligations & more so what the company response will be.

Standards of Conduct is a different issue to Industrial Action & is determined by the employer.

[ratpoison]

engaged in activities which don't align with the "Standards of Conduct" you were provided on initial employment.
Oh please..............someone pass me a bucket. You should be stating that to the management maggots on how they engage in "Standards of Conduct".

[international hog driver]

Full-time earnings in Australia averaged A$64,594 a year in the first quarter of 2010.

Yep. I know office workers with no responsibility who earn this, 9-5, all public holidays off..... blah blah blah about 1920 hours of work...

Now ask these questions

Do they do a medical each year in order to keep their job.
Do they do multiple training events.
Do they have a simulator assessment that requires a pass in order to keep their job.
Do they spend upwards of 50% of their employment away from home.
Do they work at any hours their employer requires.
Do they get rostered to work any day of the year.

There are a myriad of other issues we all know them.

There has to be a differentiation between what is reality and what is perception and to achieve this a professional PR company needs to be used... no questions.

It has to be done under one banner, all different the different representative groups under a united front.

The employers need to know that they have stretched the friendship so far that they have instead of splintering the pilot community they have raised union membership.

I can tell you right now that having had 350+ professional aircrew from all the carriers come together for a meeting will have sent a clear enough message to the operational management that the game has changed.

They will never admit it but I would bet you the CEO's bonus that there have been quite a few discussions and their own meetings to discuss this development that only a few short years ago would never have been possible.

STAND UNITED
DONT ACCEPT ANY OFFER TO GO TO SINGAPORE / NZ / anywhere else they think of...
DONT ANSWER THE PHONE ON DAYS OFF
REMAIN A PROFESSIONAL AND DO YOUR JOB TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY
(& watch their prized OTP disolve)

and believe you me, never discuss anything in a cockpit, the walls have ears..... and cvr's.:=

[prairiegirl]

Yep. I know office workers with no responsibility who earn this, 9-5, all public holidays off..... blah blah blah about 1920 hours of work...

Now ask these questions

Do they do a medical each year in order to keep their job.
Do they do multiple training events.
Do they have a simulator assessment that requires a pass in order to keep their job.
Do they spend upwards of 50% of their employment away from home.
Do they work at any hours their employer requires.
Do they get rostered to work any day of the year.

There are a myriad of other issues we all know them.

hog driver - dude you just entirely missed the point -

right or wrong, pilots, as a work group, are perceived as having sexy jobs, going to exotic places, and i recognise you might find this hard to believe, live in cool houses and drive sexy cars - empathy man! and recognition! the majority of voters and the population cannot relate, and frankly don't care if 50% of your employment is away from home etc - you are perceived as elite.

your response is exactly why you need to take this conversation offline - vent your frustrations with other sexy pilots, not where it can be wrapped up to work against you.

hire a marketing firm.

and yes, it totally cracks me up to say sexy pilots lol.

[international hog driver]

Actually prairiegirl RTFQ.....

There has to be a differentiation between what is reality and what is perception and to achieve this a professional PR company needs to be used... no questions.


This is the real point...

You need to look past your own perceptions as well. The only reason the perception propagates is because a very long time ago, post WW2, in the days when DC-3 reigned supreme pilots were a dime a dozen and the fledgling australian airlines needed people.

It was then at places like ANA and Butler that unions came along because the company needed the the most out of their crew and those pioneers stood up together and fought to achieve the T&Cs that were the basis of what became the golden era of Australian Airline aviation.

To this day, those that were well in the system before 21 years ago and those at mainline have generally done very well out of the system and propagated dream.

However the modern reality is different.

THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DISPELLED. BY A PROFESSIONAL

How about this for reality, at the meeting monday, I bumped into an old mate, we learnt to fly together two decades ago. I remember when he was flying a 1900 and the company that is now J* canned the program...... you know what he was offered..... oh you can become cabin crew and if a position becomes available you may get a shot at the 717...... blah blah blah.

Did that ever get publish, how about the glamor of that ?????

How about being new to the game, I know a young fella who was concerned over how he was going to survive living in Sydney where his prospective employer intended to base him. No how about a guy with a wife and family who needs to do the same.....

In this race to the bottom there is no way that the T&C's being offered are anywhere near "elite" to have to live in the rat race......

It is all PERCEPTION the PR depts of every operator right now are burning the midnight oil in order to portray their view of reality and say, "Oh those nasty pilots creating havoc in our "tough trading conditions" in a "high cost environment"....(etc) how dare they take offense at our T&C offers.......
Believe me they are working overtime to have any attack of their "perceived reality" defend by spin, barrage and blatant untruths.

Then they will trundle out someone saying how much we earn, someone who is on the highest pay grade and has no life so is willing to work days off and reserve and everything else to pay for his 3rd wife blah blah blah.....

THE ONLY LEVERAGE your particular union will have is knowing that the pilot body is fully behind them.

Whichever union is your union needs to know they have the full support of those that are in other unions in the same company.

This can only be achieved by your FULL SUPPORT and it would help that each individual group is brought under a group umbrella.

This will be the only way to stop the erosion of T&Cs, stop the flagging out of operations (ie JetConnect), stop the undermining of existing agreements by the Implied threat of sending jobs offshore.

Sure let them start a new company in Singapore, to fly the proposed expansion at lesser T&Cs...... as long as its 9V... and they can let anyone have a shot at it....

But if you want to be VH operated for your (the companies) benefit then its going to be on T&Cs that the company agreed to before.

Marketing sells J* as all Australian, ozzie owned and bread,pure blonds, with well feed anglo saxons in the front end fly to asia and europe with us,..... BECAUSE ITS WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS TO SEE.... ever see a Thai or Singaporean face on the add????? nah me neither but i have seen them in uniform at the airport when getting on the plane.

The support from the senior members of mainline was phenomenal because most of them see that J* and JitConnect are the begining of the end for any progression of mainline and the potential destruction of everything they have succeed in building....

DONT LET THEIR SPIN OF REALITY BE THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION

STAND UNITED
DONT ACCEPT ANY OFFER TO GO TO SINGAPORE / NZ / anywhere else they think of...
DONT ANSWER THE PHONE ON DAYS OFF
REMAIN A PROFESSIONAL AND DO YOUR JOB TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY
:ok:

(no offense intended to well fed flight crew, i'm on my way there too...:})

[prairiegirl]

no need to explain to me the lack of glamour..... trust me on this one. zero misconceptions on what the job entails on this end.

hire the pr firm.

stop writing 'see how tough i have it' posts on pprune that the media will distort and the public cannot relate to. it will be the downfall of all the pilots hard work and commitment to this plan.

[-438]

Do they do a medical each year in order to keep their job.
Do they do multiple training events.
Do they have a simulator assessment that requires a pass in order to keep their job.
Do they spend upwards of 50% of their employment away from home.
Do they work at any hours their employer requires.
Do they get rostered to work any day of the year?

Do they have to work behind a bullet proof door for the saftey of the public?
Are they subject to radiation for long periods of their career?
Are they subject to toxins from their airconditioning systems?
Are they subjected to random drug and alcohol tests?
Are they subject to daily security checks whilst being required to hold an ASIC?

Do they have to manage a crew of 3 to 25 employees in an pressurised aluminium tube travelling at close to the speed of sound at 40000 feet over vaste oceans and polar regions, through international airspace subject to weather events relying on a mechanical miracle worth hundreds of millions of dollars and with the companies existance at stake with up to 450 fare paying passsengers with families waiting at home for their safe passage?

We do need a PR company to represent us because that is not our skill set.

[Counter-rotation]

prariegirl was right on when she said:

Take the emotion out of this and put it in a secure place and hire professionals to fight this fight. That is precisely what your competitors are doing (Others have said it earlier too, I'm pretty sure.) :ok:

Now, I was still in school in '89 and without wanting to bring that up, I have to because it's part of a point I'd like to make...

I remember 21 years ago standing at the bus stop, reading a piece of A4 paper that someone had pasted to a telephone pole. It was titled: "What the pilots are fighting against" and listed a whole host of stuff that meant nothing to me at the time - I was just a school kid! But I saw a lot of other, older people reading it too.

Predominately (also as others have mentioned here), the general public has a perception of the industry that is closer to Alice in Wonderland than Reality - I'm sure you'd agree!

How about a campaign to raise awareness of some of the "other" stuff?
GA awards lower than average wage in this country (some so low they are almost unliveable)
Operators constantly testing out "what they can get away with" - and who is ultimately responsible? The PIC...
PICs nearly a "de-facto" regulator, due to CASA's poor performance in many areas
Loss of medical on any number of possible reasons = career over
Now, primarily BYO endoresement
Finally - companies are not satisfied with all that, they now want to send your job overseas, to get the labour cheaper

I'm sure you all have other points to add here.

And has anyone sent any letters to their MPs or union yet? I'm seriously interested in feedback. Breakfastburrito penned a good "action plan" to follow on from the meeting, are we following it?! :D

Victor Two

Geez, glass (more than) half empty mate!! So you opted out and reckon that was a good move - glad it worked for you... Your reasons are probably personal but not really relevant to us here. Anyone who has been in this game for more than a minute has probably considered doing that too. But we're still here, and want to make the best of it. I would say that people generally just want a fair go, and are happy enough if they get it. They don't then go out hunting for more. (Company CEOs might be an exception)

Can we "win" - or change anything? I really don't know, and neither do you. You can postulate or whatever, sure. But that's pretty irrelevant too.

I do know this -

I'd rather do as much as I can now, and accept the result knowing that I had a crack, than put it all in the too hard basket, accept whatever happens (or be forced out of the game), and never know what we might have been able to influence or change.

CR.

[teresa green]

Geez -438, I have forgotten how good I was, being just a glorified bus driver (as Mr. Robert Lee Hawke assured me as such) my ego was all dented, and as for glamour, what glamour, as you all know, there is nothing like a 0415 wake up call, (especially after a sleepless night solving the worlds problems) then there is the crew meals, designed to put you into the cardiac ward sooner than expected, to say nothing of always being away for hatches, matches and dispatches, (and ever in the sh$t for it) But on the serious side, yes the companies will play this line, in fact I suggest you get a copy of the 89 debarcle, and you will probably see the same old porkies being brought out now, as was then, and be ready for them. You really do need a good PR person/s something we did not have, and it could have meant a difference, because the public were happy to believe Hawke and Abeles, (the tall poppy syndrome is alive and well in this country) and the overpaid and over indulged spin will be played over and over again as it will be repeated with you people.

[TriJetFlying]

Hmmm. Doesn't take long before you lot start attacking eachother. All the operators must be shaking in their boots!

Stop posting crap on a public forum, it's useless. Just hire the professionals. They'll win it for you!

Keep the pilots out of the lime light, you are the "good guys" Right?? Let the PR pro's take over. You catch more fly's with honey!
Good luck

[blow.n.gasket]

Just don't use any PR firms from the likes of Boston Consulting , Freehills, Oldmeadow Consulting, or any other firm beholdant to large Multinational Corporates!:E

[teresa green]

It is, when your going on 65 Angle!

[shortshortz]

BB :ugh:

KGBTV Video Interviews | Leaders in Business Interview Series | Business Spectator (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/KGBTV?Readform&groupid=PMGH-88PUX6&chp=2)


not sure if you have to log in

[KRUSTY 34]

I've requested a "please explain" from the moderator. Just in case the other 44,000 viewers were wondering also! :suspect:

This is just for you, Krusty:

That would be because the thread is about outsourcing jobs overseas. I've politely asked twice for everyone to remain on topic, but it appears some are either unable or unwilling to consider such a simple request - hence the post deletions. Purely to keep the thread on track, of course :)

There are innumerable threads on these forums that start off with good intent, then just degenerate into the same old T&C debate.

This thread is too important to allow the same to happen, and if it means some posts being deleted in order to do so, then so be it.

Regards from TID.

Any posts drifting off topic will be removed. It's really quite simple, isn't it?

TID Edit. :)

[struggling]

FYI, listen to how the 'Horse' tells the Jetstar Asia story at:

KGBTV Video Interviews | Leaders in Business Interview Series | Business Spectator (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/KGBTV?Readform&groupid=PMGH-88PUX6&chp=2)

[KRUSTY 34]

It's interesting how Buchanan remarked about the top salaries being paid in Australia and highlighted the "Good" deal being offered in Singapore. Both examples were for the highest salary on the flightdeck and with all possible allowances included.

He also remarked that these salaries are significantly higher than most "Blue Collar" wages in OZ! Show's you just what he thinks of his pilots, and an obvious appeal to the masses! First shot in the war against the "Silvertail" greedy pilots! Absent from his remarks of course was the proposed salaries for the low timers and Cadets!

Don't even go down the path of equitable salaries guys. Buchanan's remarks only highlight what I have already said. They will twist any campaign for equitable T&C's to suit their own ends, and deflect any attention from what will be the only thing that will ressurect our profession.

Keep non ATPL holders out of the flightdeck of Aussie RPT arcraft above 5700kg!

[airtags]

If we're not careful this whole thing will replicate the messy mixed messages of the recent election advertising - which lacked focus and did not lock up on the 'perception' of the public.

Our important considerations in running this debate must be:

1. What does it mean to the average punter?
2 What does it mean for "Australian Standards"?
3. How can our pitch create a 'risk' to JQ's image?

The piece to camera grab would simply be.
This is a bad move by Jetstar ........

it jeapodises air safety by slashing safety standards.
it means the next generation of pilots, cabin crew, and engineers will have to move to Asia and work under third world conditions inc less money and lesser worker's rights.
it is the tip of the iceberg that will open the way for Jetstar and others to send more and more jobs offshore robbing Australians of job opportunities and shrinking the Australian economy.The closer grab would be.....................
Would you get into a taxi where the driver does not have a licence, proper training or experience? - Jetstar wants you to do just that with air travel.

[rowdy trousers]

So we are blue collar workers, but he cant understand why the pilots are organising industrial representation - you would think that someone who has become CEO (of any organistaion) would have more intelligence than that.

Clearly the biggest threat to BB is the prospect of not being able to walk all over the pilots, and treat them and their work place agreement with contempt.

His body language and hand gesticulations suggested to me that he his just hanging on - a sure sign of someone who has difficulty dealing with the truth. (notice he didn't actually answer the direct question about the SIN MEL service)

I think that the more JQ pilots join unions (particularly AIPA) the more BB will sweat - he is obviously a canidate for the "peter principle" - promoted (well) above his level of competence.

His pathological propensity for lying must be of concern to the board.

[hueyshuffle]

The previous few posts (and pages of posts) raise excellent points about the message that needs to get through to Joe and Jane Bloggs.

People have also commented that Pilots are not very good at communicating some of these ideas in a way that will have a positive result for themselves.

So professional PR people are required (I haven't said anything new so far, just paraphrasing).

I'm going out on a limb here - Have the AIPA and ALPA etc taken this on board and are there people working on this? So far, the media has reported what they've wanted to with respect to the position of Jetstar pilots and pilots in general but its been pretty diluted. On the other hand, as has been mentioned, the spin doctors at Jetstar and misc have probably been working overtime...

AIPA, ALPA, What is being done to get the message across? Some of the points that have been made on this forum are excellent and are widely supported. What is being done to package these points in a media friendly and public friendly manner to garner support from outside the industry?

I'm sure a lot of people will be happy to financially contribute to this cause (send me an address and I'll send you a cheque) so the message can get across and the right people can be hired to represent these issues in the media (ie: professional PR folks).

With respect to NZ as a ''haven'' for airlines/jetstar wanting to pay crap wages. Has anything been done to address this issue? Toward the beginning of the thread, someone remarked that there's Jetstar pilots in CH flying the same routes as Oz based pilots and getting paid a lot less. How does the company defend this and surely this should be an issue to raise (alongside singapore and vietnam). If only ALPA would/could do something similar in NZ.

[noip]

Rowdy,

I understand your reaction, and I too found the "blue collar" reference offensive - however ...... take a step back and look at this from the standpoint of Sun Tsu, "the 10 principles of war" etc. It was a deliberate insult to inflame you. Make no mistake about that.

This is nothing more than warfare cloaked in more civilised garb..........


N

PS ... I love the "KGB TV" reference ......

[prairiegirl]

This is nothing more than warfare cloaked in more civilised garb..........

all ya'll (that's plural for ya'll) are falling right into their smarmy hands..... so discouraging.

he didn't say you were blue collar workers - he used the words 'blue collar workers' in a way that would incite you and divide you.

mission accomplished. darn it.

i know it's difficult, but keep the passion out of it - you can't fight forthright with passionate smart remarks - it won't work. stick to the facts, they will get you farther down the road.

[Taildragger67]

Wear a tie.

Why?

Brucey doesn't and it makes him look unprofessional on TV.

Branson & O'Leary he ain't.

Notice the bloke running the ASX-200 company (ie. AJ) usually does these days.

[Metro man]

Would you get into a taxi where the driver does not have a licence, proper training or experience?

If you use taxis in most major Australian cities that's exactly what you are doing.

You're probably being driven by an Indian student who arrived a couple of months ago and has borrowed his mates taxi driver authorisation and ABN.

That's if you're lucky, at least the Indians can speak English, not many of the other drivers in Sydney can.:E

[phantom menace]

Let's re-align the IRS's we are in danger of drifting off crs.......let's not turn this thread into mines bigger than yours, or whose driving the taxi's in SYD. The professional status of a higher trained and experienced airline pilot is been eroded by JQ and others,but at their peril. An over supply of pilots has made the LCC's take the advantage, and effectively take the p**s on T&C's , and guess what the unions have sat back and watched it happen..
The only shinning light comes from airlines like EK,EY,QR who will seize the opportunity to hoover up all those highly experienced PROFESSIONAL airline pilots and pay them the going rate for the job.

[delamere]

From Russia - The KGB use their TV channel to interrogate Buchanan with some questions.

CBdqoHOyzOE

[noip]

Interesting. I had only seen the transcript before.

Despite this sounding entirely reasonable to an audience, "misleading" would be my kindest view of it. Which brings up a really important point for anyone thinking of taking the Singapore offer up:

Singapore Tax

Be very, very careful on this. Just because the Jetstar CEO says you will be paying Singapore tax does not mean it is so. An Australian citizen could easily find they would be paying Australian Tax.

Makes the un-attractive offer even less so, doesn't it?

And I don't think the pay will be made up for the additional burden, unlike for another.


N

[rowdy trousers]

Prairie & Noip,

I am neither insulted nor incited by the blue collar remark - It is no secret that BB thinks of pilots as such.

My point was that the very clear implication of his remark (blue collar) is that he views pilots and what they do with contempt, and therefore wouldn't it be logical to him that pilots seek effective industrial representation to try and protect their profession, like most blue collar workers do?

I can assure you, it is far from mission accomplished, every dog must have their day.

[Al E. Vator]

Its also plain wrong.

I fly passengers within Asia and I get paid roughly 4 times what a Jetstar Captain is getting.

Yet somehow my airline made nearly 1 BILLION AUSTRALIAN DOLLARS in the last 6months alone!!

As has been said, Buchanan has only his career progression and personal salary in mind. It benefits him to reduce your salary.

If what he says about failed court-cases is correct then AIPA alone aren't smart enough to take him/QF on - it needs to be a new and united pilot body.

[ratpoison]

I get paid roughly 4 times what a Jetstar Captain is getting.
So roughly a J* Capt gets about 150k a year. So your on 600k flying in Asia. Can you let us all know which company this is that's paying nearly 3/4 million a year for a Capt??
EK,EY,QR who will seize the opportunity to hoover up all those highly experienced PROFESSIONAL airline pilots and pay them the going rate for the job. I would probably go and ask them if they all get the "going rate".

[Fruet Mich]

Unbelievable! That guy Buchanan is the biggest weasel I've ever seen. Interesting that he commented on how many times AIPA has taken court action, the guy has his head so far up his own ass he can't figure out there must be a problem with his management style if that's is the case! I say we organize a face to face debate and have it out with him. Off course he'll refuse, then we can use it against him. The world has fought wars with the propaganda machine, I think the industry needs to spend money on a good PR company.

[DeltaT]

Re the BB video above
What do other airlines do/pay that operate similarly?

Surely there are other airlines that have secondary hubs and base pilots and planes in cheaper countries compared to the origin company?
Or is this whole Asia/Aus/NZ thing unique?

[jibba_jabba]

BB said captains are on 200000 SGD

200,000.00 SGD = 164,456.54 AUD Singapore Dollars (http://www.xe.com/currency/sgd-singapore-dollar) Australia Dollars (http://www.xe.com/currency/aud-australian-dollar) 1 SGD = 0.822283 AUD 1 AUD = 1.21613 SGD

it sounds like a fair dinkum explination but in saying so, its always the honey that attracts the fly to its doom. Seems like there was more to that interview posibly???

[Mstr Caution]

Emergency landing: fire on board Jetstar flight to Gold Coast (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/emergency-landing-fire-on-board-jetstar-flight-to-gold-coast-20090611-c3vp.html)


Mr Buchanan commended the pilots' quick actions in putting the fire out. He said the chief pilot had 14 years' experience flying with Qantas.
"I'd just really like to commend the pilots ... they've reacted swiftly and in a very professional manner,'' Mr Buchanan said.


BB praises the efforts & experience of a QF pilot only when it suits him! :ugh:

[aulglarse]

I can only assume BB is referring A330 captains earning 250k, otherwise he is way out of his depth. In any case, I've never heard of an A320 captain earning more than 220k, but glad to be proven wrong.

[Mstr Caution]

BB fails to compare apples with apples, no QF A330 pilot would be on $400K.

[Fuel-Off]

"BB fails to compare apples with apples, no QF A330 pilot would be on $400K."

And he uses that lie because he expects the public to believe him. I agree with the others, spend the dosh with a reputable PR firm and let the truth be told about safety and conditions and watch these little worms squirm. I'm sure that the paying public would not want to see stressed out, overworked drivers at the pointy end of their aeroplane.

Vive la révolution!!

Fuel-Off :ok:

[Mstr Caution]

I agree with the others, spend the dosh with a reputable PR firm and let the truth be told about safety and conditions and watch these little worms squirm.


I'd be happy to donate some coin to fly Chesley Sullenberger to Australia (all expenses paid) to address the media with AIPA's PR firm.

[Al E. Vator]

ratpoison - at 150k for a Jet* Captain, your right, as a Captain in Asia I only get just over 3 times that amount not 4 times! That however doesn't include bonuses which this year should be about 1 month to 6 weeks.

Point being that time and time again there are attempts to point out that Australian salaries are unsustainable, particularly when compared to Asian counterparts and that is just plain incorrect.

Now maybe if you're looking at say Mandala or Air Asia or somesuch but not 'proper' airlines.

In defence of this Buchanan chap I don't think he was saying you were blue collar workers, he was trying to show how 'high' your salaries are.

On a global basis they just are not. They are woeful.

[teresa green]

It is just a new handle for "glorified bus drivers" didn't take em long.:mad::mad:

[EK_Bus Driver]

I have to disagree, B.B. is clearly comparing Pilot wages to Blue Collar workers. I think as professional Pilots we should all be outraged! His comments are (as are the proposals) incredibly divisive, the cost base and career progression argument is a nonsense. His arrogance and the contempt that he obviously has toward us as professionals is astonishing.

What Blue Collar worker has the responsibilities that we have? What Blue Collar worker has 2 License renewals (SIM's), a line check, a Medical, SEP training, Dangerous Goods training, numerous other courses and other hoops to jump through each year just to maintain their PROFESSIONAL standards and their job?

I have nothing against Blue Collar workers, my Family is mostly made up of them.

This guy is a nasty piece if work! I'll bet his salary is well in excess of 400k

Same job same pay! Simple. Our forefathers fought long and hard for a fair day's pay for a fair day's work and some of the conditions we all enjoy today. I'm all "for" profitability and job security, who doesn't want their Company to be doing well? But it is Assh@les like him that will screw everyone else for their own bank balance and career progression, then just walk away!

[rowdy trousers]

So when a pilot saves the day he is a "professional".

Whether the performance bonus is paid (or not) to the pilots, is directly linked to the operation of the Qantas executive bonus scheme, whom I presume are "professionals".

The rest of the time, pilots are blue collar - his arrogance is only surpassed by his naivety.

I think that the engagement of a good PR firm is now a must, surely any reasonably competent spin doctor could run rings around Joseph Goebbels and his side kick S.W.

[jibba_jabba]

So when a pilot saves the day he is a "professional".

Whether the performance bonus is paid (or not) to the pilots, is directly linked to the operation of the Qantas executive bonus scheme, whom I presume are "professionals".

The rest of the time, pilots are blue collar - his arrogance is only surpassed by his naivety.

I think that the engagement of a good PR firm is now a must, surely any reasonably competent spin doctor could run rings around Joseph Goebbels and his side kick S.W.

+1 for that.

I am sick and tired of hearing and seeing pilots trying to negotiate and failing.... time to fight on an even keel boys. Use professionals!

[Mstr Caution]

I am sick and tired of hearing and seeing pilots trying to negotiate and failing.... time to fight on an even keel boys.

The same can be said of negotiating rates of pay & terms for Singapore flying.

Have AFAP / AIPA negotiate an acceptable rate for you, rather than accept whats on offer.

[ratpoison]

AIPA where are you ??
Since the meeting of the 23rd on how to combat and protect our industry and profession, YOUR SILENCE IS DEAFENING. Oh that's right, the long haul EBA is up for negotiation and we don't want to piss off the QF board before this do we!!

[Mr. Hat]

Bruce, with your low cost base and penny pinching tactics plus all the help and gifted routes from QF why is it that Virgin still manages to trump your outfit at results time?

Is low cost actually working? Gotta wonder.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

A question regarding ratpoisons last post:If AIPA aren't up to the job due to what souds like political reasons, then maybe another union without a conflict of interest needs to be asked to represent us. I'm not sure who, but aren't the TWU etc. options to consider?Now that we have some momentum behind us, we can't let an ineffective union derail us.....

[blow.n.gasket]

A transcript from the meeting sent to me.
Well worth a read.
I wonder what Clockwork Doll would say about the following?




I am a First Officer employed by Jetstar on the Airbus A-330 aircraft. It is only as a result of great concern about what is happening to the company I work for, the safety of our operation and the careers of my colleagues that I present the following to you.





I must re-emphasise exactly what objections we, the Jetstar pilot group have to FSO 136/10:



* That the creation of a new shell company to employ pilots in Australia will enable the company to subvert the EBA and make it obsolete. It will be able to do this even if it keeps its promise of not 'forcing' pilots onto the new contracts. This is because if the company is allowed to develop this new entity it will be able to control pilots promotion prospects by making them conditional on rescinding the EBA to gain access to positions on what it calls 'growth' aircraft.



* That the creation of a shell company using 'merit based' promotion will render seniority obsolete and tend to encourage nepotism and favoritism rather than using an effective and established method of promotion that mitigates those influences. It will also effect safety because pilots will feel the need to prioritise commercial pressures over safety concerns to appease management and be deemed sufficiently 'meritorious' to be worthy of promotion.



* That the creation of offshore pilot bases operating Australian registered Jetstar aircraft on an Australian AOC into Australia on terms and conditions inferior to the EBA represents the most radical and threatening assault on the profession of airline pilot that we have faced in a generation. We are fully aware of what Jetstar has done to cabin crew and how the company has created 'bases of convenience' in Bangkok and Singapore to crew the majority of its Australian based international flights on third world wages. It would be naive at best to expect the company to have anything different in store for us. If this 'basing' strategy is successful what is to stop the company rolling it out across the network, initially displacing wide body crew and then taking up more and more of our domestic flying? It could do this by rebadging many flight numbers as 'international tags' and crewing them with Singapore based pilots on extended tours of duty similar to what they have done with the flight attendants. Of course our colleagues at Qantas Mainline are watching this space closely and are well aware of the likelihood of this strategy being extended to their operation should we fail to curtail its rollout at Jetstar.



Mr Buchanan claims that in order to grow and to remain competitive we must have a cost base that is relevant to the countries that we operate in. To a certain extent he is correct but he also misappropriates a central part of basic economic theory to justify his position regarding our EBA.



It should be noted that the terms and conditions associated with the Singapore based A330's are significantly inferior to comparable (wide body) operations based out of Singapore. This is not a level playing field. It is attempting to create a competitive advantage by driving down pilot labour costs.



Within Australia our EBA is already the most competitive and flexible in the business. We have provided at least a level playing field with Tiger, and a very significant cost advantage to Virgin and Qantas when it comes to pilot labour costs. We are certainly not 'pricing ourselves out of the market' and the EBA contains enough flexibilities, in its current form to accommodate growth in the airline. Mr Buchanan must also remember that the EBA is a contract; a legal undertaking between us, the employees and the company. That agreement was made to encompass all Jetstar pilots operating under the Australian AOC and it is plainly unacceptable to us to create a new entity which will undermine the provisions of that EBA by reducing the opportunities for promotions under the terms and conditions that we signed up for.



With regards to the overseas basings, our attitude is that we will not allow the use of cheap overseas labour to undermine our Australian wages and working conditions. This is the line in the sand that we draw and we will fight to defend it at all costs. If we fail our careers and industry will suffer irreparably.



In our Australian operation pilot labour costs make up a very small proportion of airline operating costs. Even if through ruthless industrial maneuvering pilot salaries could be reduced to the minimum wage this would have very little effect on the total demand for air travel across the board and therefore on growth in the industry as a whole. If Mr Buchanan was successful in reducing pilot wages in Jetstar alone he would gain merely a short term competitive advantage (and a resultant increase in market share) only as long as it would take for competing airlines to replicate this strategy. What this would do without doubt is to completely destroy our profession and to detrimentally effect safety by driving experienced, well educated and trained operators out of the industry or abroad and replacing them with the cheapest lowest common denominator. All this for a saving of perhaps one percent of the ticket price for passengers. Of course eventually the laws of supply and demand would catch up and airlines would be faced with having to pay substantially more to attract suitable candidates to the industry. By that time however the people responsible will have hoped to have moved on to large-cap publicly listed companies (and the 'big bucks' that entails) having sold their credentials as having broken the unions and slashed labour costs for their former employer.



This is where we see the ugly specter of 'Moral Hazard' appear. You may remember that this amongst other things was seen to be the underlying cause of the GFC. 'Moral Hazard' occurs when people gain benefit from engaging in risky strategies whilst being personally shielded from the risks that those strategies imply. 'Slash and burn' management styles can generate short term improvements to the bottom line for which the managers are duly rewarded through KPI-linked bonuses. By the time the costs associated with those strategies become apparent, the managers responsible have long since 'flown the coop' onto bigger and better things and have left the sorry mess behind for the company's employees, customers and shareholders.



It is therefore our responsibility as an educated, empowered cohesive group to fight this strategy with all our might. It is not just a fight for our own self-interest but an ideological struggle, one that pits the very best aspects of sensibly regulated market based economics and labour relations against the worst excesses of individual greed and self interest cloaked in the banner of laissez faire capitalism.



This is not a fight that we wish to enter into but one into which it looks we may be forced. We have long been a cooperative and efficient workforce and have provided Jetstar management with the efficiencies and flexibilities they require to run a successful and growing business. The latest announcements by management are viewed almost universally as a betrayal of trust and consequently pilot morale and engagement have reached an all time nadir. We are now at the edge of a precipice, one which only decisive and enlightened intervention from Jetstar's new management team can remove us from.



If Jetstar management proceeds on its current course of creating offshore 'bases of convenience' to fly Australian Registered Aircraft on an Australian AOC into Australia on substandard contract conditions and to create an Australian shell company to undermine the Jetstar Pilot's EBA there can be only one foreseeable reaction from the Australian airline pilot community.



That reaction will be bloody and protracted. It will be within the confines of the Fair Work Act but beyond that as you can well imagine for an employee group facing effective annihilation, the gloves will be off. It will not just be the Jetstar Pilots represented by AIPA and the AFAP that will be the protagonists here. This issue has wide ranging implications not only for Air Pilots but for the Australian Industrial Relations System as a whole. It potentially involves the issues of:



* The undermining of the Collective Bargaining System of EBA's (the Fair Work Act's stated preferred method of industrial negotiations) through the creation of parallel shell companies providing labour for an identical occupational classification. This will bring the ALP and ACTU to the table to protect the intent and scope of the Fair Work Act.



* The creation of 'bases of convenience' to effectively undermine Australian wages and working conditions whilst subverting the intent of Australian Immigration, Industrial Relations and Taxation legislation. Once again peak employee bodies, as well as cabinet and quite possibly the federal opposition will have many questions regarding the public and national interest here.



* The well documented costs of having created a hostile and disengaged workforce which although are difficult to quantify, are certainly something that any manager striving for excellence and efficiency would be best disposed to avoid.







So, my colleagues and friends, what is to be done?



I think its time that we start discussing as a group a set of strategies for overcoming the assault on the Jetstar Pilot's EBA and the industry wide implications of FSO 136/10.

Whilst many of these ideas have been suggested, and some are in the process of being adopted, I would encourage everyone who has an idea or strategy to combat this latest threat to share it with us. It is only through our combined efforts and ideas that we will be able to surmount this problem.



* Encouraging union membership to all those that have not yet done so. Without the bargaining power of collective labour and the financial backing to flight the aggressive campaign by commercial management against us nothing will be achieved. To think otherwise would be to delude ourselves.



* Forming a working committee between the pilot unions to reach a basic understanding regarding the organisations' shared opposition to this FSO. This needs to be formalised in writing by the unions and a commitment made to shared financing of the upcoming legal and industrial campaign against the assault on our wages and working conditions. I urge all AFAP and VIPA members, our brothers in Virgin, V Australia and Tiger as well as all of those working in the regionals and GA who at some time wish to work for the airlines to petition your industrial representatives to put aside historical animosities and come together to flight for our future careers.



* Launching a publicity campaign (financed with union money) to educate the general public about the industrial tactics that Jetstar are using to marginalise and disadvantage workers. This may require assistance from the ACTU and other affected unions such as the FAAA. A professional PR/ Advertising company may be needed to offset management's obvious deployment of similar resources against us. History has shown us that to win this battle with the company we must get the hearts and minds of the people behind us. We must convince them that we are fighting the good fight.



It needs to be made abundantly clear that Jetstar's strategy is to offshore Australian jobs by creating shell companies overseas that employ workers on contracts that are often far below minimum legal Australian award conditions. In contrast to traditional offshoring, it must be brought to the public's attention that this practice of Jetstar's usurps and undermines the Australian Industrial Relations system because these workers whilst ostensibly based overseas, are in fact predominantly working out of Australia, without visas and without paying Australian Taxes.



Some of these workers (Jetstar Singapore Flight Attendants) are being paid a base wage of $650 AUD per month! Through no fault of their own they are displacing Australian employees from Australian jobs, because even on Australian minimum wages Australians cannot compete with the slave-wages being offered by the offshore shell companies. The ACTU and all unions must realise that this trend set by Jetstar represents the tip of an iceberg, one that if it is allowed to continue unchecked will inevitably result in other industries being overrun by foreign workers on third-world wages employed within Australia under the thinnest of pretexts whilst flouting our immigration and industrial relations legislation.



The publicity campaign must focus on educating the general public about the safety implications of allowing the undermining of Australian working conditions. For example it should be highlighted that Flight Attendants employed under the Work Choices based 'Team Jetstar' shell company (and those on similar but much more poorly paid overseas equivalents) can be forced to work for up to 20-23 hours continuously without rest facilities being provided. This is happening to front line workers in a safety sensitive environment who are required to operate aircraft emergency equipment and make life-and-death decisions in the event of an aircraft emergency evacuation. As few of these workers have union representation, and the foreign workers in particular operate in a climate of fear and intimidation from their shell company employers, they are being forced into working under conditions of extreme fatigue and putting members of the fare paying public at risk.



Similarly we pilots are fighting the company's proposal to employ pilots outside the existent EBA and promote pilots based on 'merit'. This is in contravention to the currently established practice of promoting based on tenure with the company and meeting competency requirements both prior to being offered promotion, and after promotion training has been completed.



Whilst it may initially sound like a good idea to promote pilots based on 'merit' a closer look at Jetstar management's rationale for this move reveals their true intentions. Airline Pilots, like many other professionals are paid as much to refuse to do certain things as they are to get the job done. Every day in the life of a professional airline pilot is spent evaluating risks and determining the safest course of action. Sometimes this safest course of action will be at odds with the short term commercial imperatives of the company.



A pilot operating within a seniority system will have no incentive to take risks or break the rules to appease management and increase his chances of promotion. Conversely a pilot operating under a 'merit' based promotion system (and particularly in a company that views cost savings as its fundamental value) will be under implicit pressure to 'please' management otherwise he or she will risk their career advancement prospects.



In this way a pilot who should be thinking about safety implications as their first and foremost priority can have undue and systemic pressure placed on them to take greater risks with their aircraft and fare paying passengers.



Jetstar is arguing that the employment of contract pilots will give all pilots 'greater career opportunities'. This is Orwellian Doublespeak for 'pilots who are prepared to accept lower terms and conditions of employment, without the protection of a collective employment agreement- will be offered promotion opportunities. Those who are not willing to prostitute themselves to such an ignoble cause- will see their careers railroaded'. This principal is discrimination against Jetstar EBA pilots plain and simple. We are told that we will not be forced off our existing EBA, but that promotion opportunities will go to employees who are willing to accept inferior contracts. This is an attempt to manufacture the consent of the desperate and the self-interested and to defend the voluntary nature of such a practice is the moral equivalent of legitimising a confession made by a man with a gun to his head.



* We must take active steps to prevent the employment of contract pilots and prevent them from operating on line. We must canvass legal opinion through our unions regarding our legal rights to refuse to fly with contract pilots. Additionally we need to support our unions in launching a legal injunction to prevent the employment of contact pilots on the grounds that it is a consummate breach of our EBA. We must be proactive, otherwise the company's concept of contact pilots will gain the advantage of incumbency and put us in the unenviable position of having to undo what they have done.



* As individuals we need to rise above apathy and make ourselves heard. We should all be writing letters to our politicians, our Local Members and the relevant Ministers and Shadow Ministers. Work Choices has become an ugly word in Australia. No-one wants to be associated with it. We must take steps to ensure that it is relegated to the dustbin of history- where it belongs!

[Mr. Hat]

check-mated and now you have nowhere to go

Clockwork, you'll have nowhere to go when the next set of OTP results arrive:=. Then it'll be the fuel bill. You'll discover the true power of an angry pilot group. An airline with an angry pilot group will never turn a profit. The group made 17 mil with a relatively neutral workforce. Just wait for next years figures:ok:.

In the mean time Borghetti is rubbing his hands together and will pinch your passengers and talent:ok:. Best you start respecting your assets before you have none left.

P.s. (assetts are the people - "a human resource").:D

[DrPepz]

The Jetstar Singapore cabin crew base can be thought of as "casual" rather than full time. The base pay is about S$1,200 then they only get paid as they fly. It is misleading to say that they are paid a slave wave because I know Jetstar cabin crew myself and they get about S$4k a month after flying.

You could then say that the Jetstar Australia cabin crew on casual terms are paid $0 - since their fixed pay is zero.

SQ does not underpay their cabin crew, even by Western standards, which is why they get the quality of cabin crew that they do. Since every SIN-based asipiring flight attendant would always use SQ as their benchmark, if Jetstar really underpays their crew to such a horrid extent, then who would want to join them?

SQ cabin crew also have low fixed pay and a very high variable component each time they fly - so you can think of them as "casual" as well. I think the base is S$1400 to S$1800 a month for entry level cabin crew, but each time they fly they get loaded with allowances. I know the SIN-FRA-JFK turn (7 nights) is well in excess of S$2k in allowances. In a good month, some can make S$7,000.

Generally, white collar wages in Singapore are among the highest in Asia and comparable to Australia and other Western countries. Due to the low tax though, companies can pay a lower salary and ensure you still end up no worse off or better off than if you were paid the equivalent sum in a typical Western nation. This is the same for the Middle East.

It's just that the AUD has moved 20% above its long term average, which I guess also impacts the cost of doing business in Australia. Through the 1990s, AUD:SGD was around parity. In the past 8 years it has moved to around 1.20 though in the height of the financial crisis in 2008-2009 it went below 1.

If you earn S$200k, which is A$165k, you will end up with an after tax salary of A$143k. If you earn A$200k, you will end up with an after tax salary of about A130k. I think the tipping point is around A$60k - Assuming current exchange rates, if you earn $X in Singapore dollars in Singapore, you would still end up ahead compared to if you earn $X in Australian dollars in Australia, despite the exchange rate differential.

I do empathise with Jetstar Australia pilots who feel their jobs are under threat. Not too long ago, the SIA unions forced the company to shut down all the expat flying bases. SIA used to have pilot bases in London, Perth, Sydney among others, and they have all been shut down. It's been ages since I've been on an SIA flight with an expat Captain, and I fly them about once to twice a month.

[blueloo]

Does anyone know what this "blue collar" Commoner Bruce Buchanan's qualifications actually are?

[peuce]

Just another observation from the outside ....

The Australian Government (via the ATO) has recently, quite strongly, declared its position on activities that may be, on the face of it, legal, but, on further investigation ... not "in the spirit of the law" ... viz a viz .. Paul Hogan's alledged tax irregularities.

I would suggest that the alledged aviation related activities you talk of might meet a similar fate ... if appropriately presented to the Government (whoever that may end up being).

[rmcdonal]

Does anyone know what this "blue collar" Commoner Bruce Buchanan's qualifications actually are?
Mr Buchanan has a Civil Engineering Degree from The University of New South Wales, and a Master of Business Administration from The Australian Graduate School of Management and the Anderson School at UCLA.
Bruce Buchanan, Chief Executive Officer, Jetstar | Travel Trends (http://www.traveltrends.biz/ttn553-bruce-buchanan-chief-executive-officer-jetstar-airways/)

[KRUSTY 34]

And yet on the surface of it he doesn't seem to have the first clue as to what damage a disafected workforce can do! Or maybe he just doesn't care?

If that's the best our tertiary institutions can do, then God help us all. :{

[Jetsbest]

There's a few good facts there which may be close to the mark. But are you able to appraise the readers of the following as they pertain to Singapore:
- what assistance Jetstar plans in order to get 'interested' pilots up there,
- the cost of owning a moderate family car,
- the cost of a mortgage on a modest three-bedroom home on 600sq.m block, or alternatively
- the cost of renting an air-conditioned three bedroom apartment,
- the cost of schooling children,
- the costs of health care to expats, and
- what assistance Jetstar plans to offer to get expat staff and their famiilies back to their 'Australian city of origin' for important family events (births/weddings/funerals) like other expat-hiring companies do.

I don't know the answers, but I do know that previous 'expat' pilot contracts, and for that matter any other business too, are on substantially better terms than would be offered to the locals. What's your take on that? :E

[Mstr Caution]

Curious - Who is the AOC holder for j*?

[metrosmoker]

Interesting reading comments and theories.
Management and their spin is not only out of control, becoming irrelevant. The workers at the coal face know what is going on.
As for unity and the unions. You don`t need to be in a union for unity. You just need to stand with your fellow co-workers and fight for the common goal.
As for union, I am getting a little tired of Captains spriuking the AFAP/AIPA to me on a daily basis.
AFAP have done nothing for anyone in the Jet* group since I have been there except for a few ex-Ansett guys.
AIPA, have a massive conflict of interest. If they are representing Jet* best interest, then they can`t be doing the same for Qanats pilots. And it is the Qantas pilots union. If they are representing our best interests, than if I was a Qantas pilot I would be pissed off and want to know why? And why are they looking after there own.
gordonfvckingramsay makes a good point.

[Van Gough]

You don't see bus drivers, truck drivers and train drivers getting shafted do you? The TWU is looking like a good place...

[Keg]

The conspiracy theorists are at it I see.

Riddle me this. If AIPA was worried about getting QF cranky for the upcoming LH EBA, why were they the driving force behind the 23 Aug meeting? Why would they give overt support to the motions put forward? Why would they keep fighting for pilot unity in this regard?

If AIPA didn't give a toss about J* pilots why would they bother organising this meeting? Why would they encourage such a show of solidarity from QF crew?

The allegation has been levelled that by supporting J* pilots AIPA obviously doesn't care about it's mainline pilot group or that AIPA needs to make a choice between the two. Maybe, just maybe those in AIPA understand that it's unity that is needed rather than disunity. Maybe, just maybe, those in AIPA understand that what happens to one group of pilots will ultimately happen to us all. Maybe, just maybe those in AIPA (including the signifiant number of mainline crew present at the meeting) understand where the future of this industry is headed and want to work together to preserve what we have.

Maybe, just maybe those who post anti AIPA comments on here (ratpoison, gordonramsay, metrosmoker) have alternative agendas. Whilst they (and others like Van Gogh) lead the call for other options (TWU, etc), remember who it was that drove the coordination and setting up of this meeting in the first instance.

Ultimately, join whatever pilot's union (or TWU) that you want to but learn to understand that all pilots share more with each other than any of us do with management. Disunity is what kills us and ignorant, ill informed allegations as to AIPA's role (or otherwise) in the short to medium term shows that many on this forum have yet to learn that lesson.

[Keg]

I have a little brother in SIN. He's in engineering sales. His package includes rent and utilities in 4 b/r unit, a car, health care, education for his kids, two flights home per annum for his family and then $100K SGD on top of all that. Last I checked his rent was about $6K SGD a month. In Australia his package would be car and $90K AUD. So unless you get rent, utilities, health care, education and flights home you're on a crappier deal than most other expat positions in Singapore.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Keg is spot on - when I left Singapore 8+ years ago the school fees were Sin$20k++ (uniforms/books etc etc etc)/annum PER CHILD at the Australian International School. If anyone, particularly management, suggests you can put your child in a local school he/she is being particularly disingenuous - its not an option for all sorts of social and cultural reasons.

Last I heard AIS (great school btw, my daughter loved it) was Sin$25k++/annum/child.

Even living well away from the expat enclaves (which we did and loved but then I was operating out of Seletar not Changi) a nice 3/4 bedroom apartment will be 4-5k Sin/month ++ (utilities etc).

Everything in Singapore is expensive unless you live like a local - thats ok a few days a week but again not sustainable long term unless you thrive on noodles.

For BB to suggest wages must be locally competitive is BS - all airlines in asia employ expats because they dont have enough qualified locals - expat T&Cs are significantly better than what the same individual would earn working back in Oz - that is the only reason we stay expats - if I wasn't financially better off overseas I would have applied to VB/J* et al YEARS ago.

The typical expat package includes a net wage equal or better than what is on offer at home PLUS housing/school fees/medical/evacuation insurance (for the whole family)/annual leave tickets/decent staff travel for the whole family and a decent personal effects shipping allowance.

For the theoretical J* captain grossing Aud$180-200k that means Sin$220k before you take into account the expat package which for someone with 2 kids of school age would easily top a further S$120k. Anything less than that and you WILL be financially worse off in Singapore and when the novelty wears off, and it does, you will be a very unhappy bunny - or your wife will be which means you will be too.

Go and find out what an expat SQ A330/777 captain/FO's package is and then compare it to what J* is offering. Don't let BB suggest their package is generous compared to local pilot wages in asia because you are NOT LOCALS.

It would be a VERY cold day in hell before BB would accept a package that did not include all the above to go and manage a company in Singapore - why should you?

[DrPepz]

Jetsbest:

The thing about Singapore is a lot of the housing market (90%) is only accessible to locals. Locals can get subsidised housing, use their superannuation to buy their homes, get up to S$40k in government grants to buy a home etc.

Th remaining 10% of the housing market that is accessible to foreigners are very short in supply and highly speculative.

Locals also get subsidised healthcare and virtually free education.

Foreigners who are not PRs have no access to the local housing market and have to pay absurd levels for rent. $3k to $6k a month for an apartment in rental is probably the going rate these days.

If any Jetstar Australia pilot is getting a deal in Singapore with no housing provided for them, I would say they are then getting a very bad deal. And I say this as a Singaporean too.

It's only as a Singapore citizen or PR that you can tap onto the various structures the government has put in place to enable you to enjoy the low tax, health care and provident fund (superannuation) they have put in place. As a foreigner, you basically only get to enjoy the low tax part, but without access to the local housing market, you're pretty screwed really.

I guess the Singapore government put such structures in place to ensure that employers try and fill skilled vacancies with Singaporeans first, and then if they cannot find Singaporeans to do the job, they can then pay a premium for a foreigner to do it (the premium being the housing allowance). This is of course natural for any government, to ensure its citizens get employed as a priority.

Since most Singaporean pilots are employed by the SIA Group of Airlines or associated airlines, the number of Singapore citizens or PRs left for Jetstar's SIN base would be very, very limited I would think.

Most Australians I know in Singapore who are on local packages are married to Singaporean wives and have PR and thus have access to the local housing market and schools for their kids. If you don't have PR and/or a Singaporean spouse, again, I think you're pretty much screwed.

[DrPepz]

Chimbu Chuckles:

I agree with you. I am a Singaporean currently living in Dubai on an expat package. I was happy with my local package in Singapore but wouldn't have moved to Dubai if the company didn't offer me some salary premium + expat benefits for living away from home.

If there was no premium to my salary for living outside Singapore, why on earth would I have moved from my comfort zone?

All my Singaporean friends who were posted by their companies to foreign locations received somewhere between 1.5 to 2x their salary + tax equalisation (since just about every place on earth has higher tax than SIN) + housing benefits + air tickets home.

I have NEVER heard of people relocating to another country for less money.

This has nothing to do with race or nationality. It's pure common sense.

[Popgun]

Disunity is the enemy.

PG

[KRUSTY 34]

I was wrong!

It isn't a substandard deal.

It's an amazingly substandard deal!

Edited by Krusty 34: :rolleyes:

[DrPepz]

Oh by the way BB is speaking rubbish when he says that within Asia he cannot pay proper salaries because Asians cannot afford to pay Australian airline fares.

Some time ago, I did a cost per employee comparison of major airlines, based on their annual reports

Imageshack - airlinestaffcostshz7.jpg - Uploaded by docpepz (http://img81.imageshack.us/i/airlinestaffcostshz7.jpg/)

SQ has higher labour costs per employee than NZ, CX, EK, MH and TG. Actually SQ's costs per employee are about double that of MH and TG, which are the two countries closest to Singapore. (I don't have the figure for Garuda though)

As those stats were from 2008, with the depreciation of the Euro, SQ and LH have similar costs per employee.

SQ's costs per employee are 20% lower than QF, I suspect mainly due to to the strong AUD. Dollar for dollar, SQ's cost per employee is the same as QF's. Anyway the AUD is so volatile it could swing either way for Aussie companies which outsource solely on forex.

Yet SQ has consistently been more profitable than MH, TG, GA and the myriad of airlines from countries with wages up to 90% lower than Singapore.

Foreign exchange? The SGD today is 35% stronger against the Thai Baht, 40% stronger against the Malaysian Ringgit and 700% stronger against the Indonesian Rupiah when compared to 1995. SQ hasn't collapsed as a result.

SIA operates from a high wage, high cost economy compared to its regional peers, and the SGD has been in a longterm uptrend against most if not all regional currencies. If wages were the be all and end all, SQ would have gone bankrupt today. Yet it is MH, TG and GA who have all flirted with bankruptcy. And despite paying significantly higher wages, SQ's cost per ASK is lower than all SE Asian Full Service Carriers.

Typically, high wages are a symptom of a developed economy and high labour productivity. This is why a Malaysian working in Johor Bahru which is 2km from Singapore, would earn 3 times less than a Singaporean doing the exact same job.

Has any country ever successfully devalued its currency and cut the wages of its people to ensure continued success?

[ratpoison]

Keg,

You need to go back and re read the post ol china. Since I am a PAYING MEMBER of AIPA for many many years, your statement of being ANTI-AIPA is not appropriate. One should not put both feet in thy mouth Keg as it always leaves thee with no leg to stand on!

I was also at the meeting Keg. Certainly a great show of support from the guys and gals from many regions and operators. Yes AIPA started the ball rolling by organizing it. Yes, it probably would not have even occurred without AIPA.

However Keg, a week later and NOTHING heard. A week later and what has AIPA suggested the J* folk and no doubt the whole bloody industry do about this clown who is hell bent on decimating this profession. A letter Keg, a letter from Jackson to BB and the useless Chief Pilot stating a motion of no confidence in the CEO. A letter that was no doubt thrown in the bin accompanied by hours of raucous laughter.

We need a show of force and CONSISTENT communication Keg to make this happen. We need CONSISTENT leadership on what actions that PROFESSIONAL negotiators and PR folk suggest we do against these clowns.

Quite a naive statement and accusation to make towards "ratpoison, gordonramsay, metrosmoker and Van" of being anti AIPA when all we are basically asking is "WHAT THE F**K IS HAPPENING NOW" with NO communication whatsoever.

We all keep asking WHY AIPA are NOT spending OUR monies and utilizing professionals who deal with this type of vermin on a daily basis.

Why is that Keg??

[Normasars]

I think that BB is not your only nemisis. You have to remember who is pulling the strings. Buchanan is only a puppet. AJ is in this up to his neck too.
Who was the bloke who instigated this mess @ 8 yrs ago??

BB is only doing what he is directed to do!!

['holic]

ratpoison,

Firstly, seeing as though you were at the meeting, I'll presume you nipped out to the bar for a quick schooner when they were explaining PIA.

Secondly, "WHAT THE F**K IS HAPPENING NOW"Why the f**k are you asking this on an anonymous internet forum when you are a paid up AIPA member. No phones at your house?

Thirdly, speaking of raucous laughter, that's exactly what management types will be doing when reading your posts in this thread about unity.

[MaxHelixAngle]

Ratpoison,

No one is upset with you for wanting more communication, a good PR firm and asking what is going on, but suggesting on a public forum that your union, our union, is working in other than your best interest, without any factual basis to support that contention, will always invite criticism.

Right now we need passion, we need action, we need to be vocal, but more importantly we need to be unified.

I too am hoping for a more consistent PR campaign to be launched soon.

Regards,
MHA

[metrosmoker]

Where have I stated anti AIPA comments Keg?
All I did was highlight an undeniable and obvious conflict of interest.
Jet* and Qantas compete for the same flying. If AIPA fight to advance my career, than they are doing so at the detrement of a mainline F/O-S/O. If AIPA fight for the mailine group,(if I was a mailine pilot than I would expect nothing less) than they are not acting in the best interest or my company.
As I said, unity can be achieved without compulsory union membership.
Why did AIPA organise the meeting and have so many mailine guys there? Simple.
When this A330 lands in Singapore, it will be the first example of a Qantas mainline aircraft being flown by foreign nationals on foreign terms and conditions. This is a Qantas aircraft being given to an overseas entity.
The Qantas LHEBA is about to be subdiverted, as is your senority. Qantas has more to loose by this than Jet* does.
All the chest beating in the world is useless without any real plan for action.

On another point. What is the point of fighting for the T&C`s of an overseas company. Jet*Asia employs a handful of Aussies. The majority are foreigners. Why should any Australian Union waste time, money and precious reasources fighting for them. If guys want to leave and fly overseas on those terms, then let them. If I go and join EK/CX/Dragon or Silk Air, is AIPA going to come and help negotiate the next EBA for me because I am an Australian memeber?
Shouldn`t the fight be at home first?

Australian registered aircraft and/or operated on an Australian AOC, MUST BE flown on Australian T&C`s. It is as simple as that.

[Keg]

ratpoison, holic has been a bit more blunt than I tend to be but he's pretty close to the mark. You assert that because you're paying fees you're not anti-AIPA and yet your earlier comments indicate that AIPA is on a 'go slow' because the LH EBA is up for negotiation? If your comments aren't anti-AIPA then what are they? If you have concerns then why not phone or email direct?

As to not reading your whole post (china), if you re-read mine you'll see that I did. Despite it being just six days from the meeting, you reckon that AIPA is quiet because the LH EBA matter is up for negotiations. I respond that your assertion is essentially a load of crap and if the LH EBA actually was an issue then AIPA would never have had a meeting and never encouraged mainline crew to attend in the first instance.

What I don't get though is why you're bothering with this line of thought on PPRUNE where it can have the least effect but it will give comfort to those who are trying to do the very things that AIPA is trying to prevent. :ugh: :rolleyes: Perhaps i just lack your clarity of thought. :suspect:

[Keg]

metro, perhaps I'll re-phrase. You're pushing an anti unity model. You're pushing that because J* drivers and QF drivers 'compete' for the same flying from the CEO that we should be represented separately. You don't get that we can achieve far more than working together than apart.

Sadly, many drivers have been pushing this line since well before 2000- despite some actions by a few QF drivers and supposedly one notable AIPA president. Sadly, despite the show of solidarity in attempting to draw a line in the sand- a line that WILL ultimately affect ALL airline pilots in Australia, you STILL see QF drivers as the enemy. What happens to one of us happens to all of us. You still haven't learned that lesson and like ratpoison, view this as pilot v pilot rather than pilots v management.

No wonder J* is trying this on if you and ratpoison are an example of the type of the thinking they will encounter. :rolleyes:

[ratpoison]

Oh please Holic, as if I would be wanting AIPA to spread the good news on a public forum.
No phones at your house?
Get with it, no I don't have a phone in the house. Mobiles these days ol mate and yes it has been used to dial the AIPA office. You know what the response was Holic? Figure it for yourself as it wont be appropriate here on the forum to state it, however I wasn't all that impressed. Email Holic......unanswered.

INACTION Holic is what makes raucous laughter. This crap should be in the news EVERYDAY.
Headlines:
JETSTAR MOVES AUSTRALIAN JOBS OFFSHORE.
JETSTAR CUTTING COSTS ON PILOT SKILLS AND TRAINING.
JETSTAR TO HAVE INEXPERIENCED LOW SKILLED FOREIGN PILOTS FLY WITHIN AUSTRALIAN DOMESTIC CITIES.
JETSTAR CABIN CREW HAVE TWO WEEKS TRAINING.
AUSTRALIAN AVIATION HEADING FOR THIRD WORLD STANDARD AS EXPERIENCED PILOTS LEAVE INDUSTRY.
AUSTRALIAN AVIATION SAFETY APPROACHING ALL TIME LOW.
JETSTAR CREATE UNTENABLE WORKING ENVIRONMENT FOR AUSTRALIAN PILOTS AND CABIN CREW AND MOVE JOBS OFFSHORE.
FOREIGN PILOTS AND CABIN CREW USED TO AVOID PAYING AUSTRALIAN TAX.

Are we all seeing this Holic?
As I said, the silence is deafening and what is going on???

Keg, if you choose to believe my statements as "pilot verses pilot", then you have a real comprehension issue. At the risk of repeating myself for you, it's all about INACTION Keg. USE the media and get a PR company. I hope it does not get to the point where I have to spit it out on the garage floor for you to read and digest.:ugh:

[mustman]

If the unions are looking for some inspiration to get the public on side here is something I have found in regards to cadet ships and inexperience.

Maybe use the line:
"You wouldn't put a Learner Driver in charge of Road Train. J* wants to, but with aircraft and 300 people on board!"

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee361/mustman/JETSTAR.jpg

Nothing like a scare campaign!

[peuce]

I really think you guys should take your discussions elsewhere ... such as a member's only forum.

The more you discuss here, the more intelligence (as in information, not nouse) your "opposition" gets.

The more you discuss here, the greater the potential for frustration and mis-interpretation of posts ... the more chance for antagonism and dis-unity.

Get your Unions to provide you with an appropriate private forum.

[big white bird]

I'm new to this issue, and new to the thread...but the last couple of posts have it.

AIPA should be placing advertisements on TV and billboards around the country showing a Jetstar airplane with an L on it, just like the piccy above. Liability? Jetstar would have to prove slander. Hard to do when HISTORY shows otherwise.

But none of this is happening. Instead, ratpoison asks what the hell's going on, and Keg et al rip into him. Right. I got it. Don't question the Holy authority that is AIPA. Don't dare ask if the top knobs have got it right....

One thing the internet's done is educate people to inadequacies or, often, downright incompetence of those in power. Witness blogs vs. Fox News, blogs vs. Greenpeace, blogs vs. any false reporting (IPCC anyone?).

Unless AIPA scoop the good oil from people like ratpoison, this game is lost. Hold onto the old way of doing things - whereby the assets and minds of mere plebs are not utilized, polled or tapped into, and the over-educated mongrel accountant running Crapstar will have his way.

Bring on the scare campaign. Back it up with statistics. Back it up with what ratpoison posted at 02.03 today....or don't. Stick to the old way of believing your masters, and eat the crow dished out by the bald eagle Buchanan.

[KRUSTY 34]

ratpoison and mustman, you guys have hit the nail on the head.

The only way to stop the offshoring of Australian jobs, the only way to bring the profession back to where it belongs, and the only way to put the power and therefore unity back into our hands, is to remove the fangs from the snake!

By that I mean remove the tool with which Jetstar management, and all others who will follow suit, are using to drive a wedge between us. Cheap Labour! For years the lowering of Pilots conditions has been the product of oversupply. When the natural order of things finally swung the pendulum back, these (too clever for their own good) airline bosses and bean counters have turned to the young, impressionable, but most disturbing of all, the inexperienced, to continue the trend!

The only body that can stop this rot is CASA, and more to the point their political masters. Use the events of 18 months ago in the U.S. and the subsequent actions of the American Senate with the banning of all non ATPL holders from the flightdeck, and ask why aren't we doing the same?

Australian airline managers are hurtling down the same self destructive path as their American cousins, without fear or concept of the end consequenses. I tell you, it's like watching a baby with a machinegun!

[Mr. Hat]

AFAP have done nothing for anyone in the Jet* group

Not wrong there bud - didn't even know when or where the meeting was (apart from prune of course). Maybe my emails playing up hey..

Did the TWU turn up? If not they're not worth their salt.

Mustman - PERFECT. Know just the spot. Just outside Syd domestic.

[mustman]

PERFECT. Know just the spot. Just outside Syd domestic.

And every other port J* flies out of!

Was thinking about those in airport billboards you see as you walk around. Also the approaches to the airport as you drive in. Can't imagine paying for some advertising space would cost a huge amount in comparison to the fees paid to lawyers for every court case.

[Mr. Hat]

Very expensive indeed. I'd put my money where my mouth is if called upon. Of course I'd have to change union first as my bunch aren't interested in the cause.

I reckon the billboards would have more momentum than lawyers and gee it'd be a close call which one costs more.

In the meantime the best you can do is let your cab driver hair dresser and relatives know the score. Word of mouth my friend - its free advertising.

[Mr Pilot 2007]

As an unemployed jet captain, I’m disgusted at how low these greedy ceos can go to earn their bonuses.

I looked at applying for a job in SIN a while back. I decided against it.
Look very carefully before signing the dotted line and realise in Asia the contract you sign can and will be changed if they wish, you have very little rights over there unless you pay large lawyer fees. However you still may not win.

Rent is expensive, as mentioned i'd expect around $3500-$6000 a month.
I doubt you will buy a car. The certificate to buy a small car is about $34000 on top of the price of the car (around $70000-80000 for a compact car). So around $110,000 for a compact car.
Try getting a taxi there when it’s raining, or busy times of day, almost impossible.
If your married, think seriously, will your partner be happy living in a small apartment with no car to get around.

If you’ve got kids, forget about it. High school fees, long waiting lists, large deposit to register your Childs interest in that school. Transport without a car.

Medical insurance.

I assume the $200,000SGD mentioned was for a Captain. (Is that a 1st year Captain). does that include allowances, if any.
What are the FOs going to be paid?

Singapore is not a cheap place to live.

So from a Captains $200,000SGD salary subtract $42,000-$72000SGD for rent.
Now do they same for the FOs salary.
Then consider the exchange rate. Hmmm.

Has this ceo really looked at what the cost of living will be for pilots based there? As if he really cares. You sign up, its your problem.
I’m sure they won’t be paying your rent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement)

I get irate at these greedy arrogant ceos on multimillion dollar salaries, whose only skill (or lack of) is to degrade the staffs pay and conditions to increase profits. Without the staff they are constantly screwing, you dont have an airline, all you have is several 170 million dollar jets parked up on the tarmac accruing parking fees.

When they fail, they leave, or are removed and paid out large bonuses, as written into their contracts

If they were starting a new Singapore registered airline, no problem, but to out base/outsource an Australian airline is obscene.

A pilot who left my old company for SQ cargo lasted about 18 months before moving to EK. I believe SQ cargo did not pay rent, whereas SQ mainline does. (dont quote me on that).
So I very much doubt J* pilots will stick it out there on the money they intend to pay.

IMHO it would only suit young single Captains and FOs and they are likely to move to other airlines in Asia or the ME once they get the opportunity. Expect a high turnover of pilots once the market moves again.

If you are going to live the expat lifestyle, do it for a major national airline on better pay and conditions than a budget airline.

[DrPepz]

Mr Pilot:

Yes you've nailed it really. If the pilots are not married to Singaporean spouses and/or do not have Singapore PR, they will not be eligible for all sorts of grants and healthcare subsidises that locals have access to. The low tax then becomes immaterial.

Do the Jetstar pilots who signed for the SIN base know what they are getting themselves into? I am assuming that some would be Singapore residents, but with SIA Group, Tiger, Jetstar, Emirates etc all actively recruiting pilots, the number of Singapore residents who would be available in the pilot pool out of SIN would be close to zero.

Secondly, while technically Jetstar Asia is a Singaporean airline with a Singapore AOC, it is for all purposes and intents an Australian airline masquerading as a Singaporean airline, taking the air rights which SIA has painstakingly built up over the past 2-3 decades.

I am surprised SIA has not challenged Jetstar Asia's Singapore AOC, because Although it is 51% owned by some Singapore resident, that guy is in effect a Qantas proxy, and the entire 51% stake was funded by Qantas. As such, Jetstar Asia cannot really be thought of as a Singapore-controlled airline. The CEO of Jetstar Asia reports directly to Bruce Buchanan.

Malaysia tried to challenge Jetstar Asia's AOC when they first started KUL flights. That was in the end sorted out when lobbying to the Malaysian govt resulted in them accepting that 3K was a designated Singaporean carrier.

From Singapore, Jetstar Asia can get very liberal access to the EU, much of Asia and virtually unlimited 3rd and 4th freedoms to India and China.

SIA probably does not challenge Jetstar Asia's SIN AOC because they don't want to come across as not welcoming competition. But I don't think it's very fair to SQ when QF can set up shop in its home base and slowly take the air rights SQ has negotiated for and built up over the years. I bet you once JQ starts SIN-ATH and SIN-FCO, SQ will withdraw from those markets.

(This is different from TR setting up shop in Australia, because it does not involve scarce and valuable international air rights, and I would hardly put Adelaide-Gold Coast in the same category as Singapore-Beijing or Singapore-Rome)

[Chronic Snoozer]

A clever viral marketing video would be more effective and cheaper! There are some links to youtube in the ME forum by the Emirates pilots.

[Keg]

ratpoison

... it's all about INACTION Keg.


Your original post alluded to inaction. You then followed it up with this little gem:

Oh that's right, the long haul EBA is up for negotiation and we don't want to piss off the QF board before this do we!!

If you can't see that your statement here is ludicrous beyond belief, and gives comfort to management by appearing to pit pilot against pilot, then you're the one who needs a lesson in comprehension.


USE the media and get a PR company. I hope it does not get to the point where I have to spit it out on the garage floor for you to read and digest.

Wow, you're good. I don't think any of us would have thought to use a PR company without you being around. I don't think any of us would have thought to suggest that to AIPA via PPRUNE rather than talking to a COM member directly. I stand in awe at your obvious insight.

Big white bird. I don't jump on ratpoison for bagging AIPA. What I did do is to jump on ratpoison for making stupid comments that are quite obviously opposite to the reality. I've been known to take the odd shot at AIPA myself if I felt it was warranted and it's for that reason that your assertion about not questioning the 'holy authority of AIPA' fit into the same boat as ratpoison's. Ill informed and ignorant of the reality. As for the rest of the lecture, thanks for nothing. I already know how to engage with members on the AIPA COM and try and influence them. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

What I do know is that pontificating on PPRUNE achieves little. Pontificating about motivations which are demonstrably ignorant or false gives management a huge leg up.

Have a nice day lads.

[ANCDU]

I too find it interesting that AIPA are representing Jetstar Pilots when all their flying has come at the expence of mainline pilots. Its a pretty bitter pill to swallow and i was really pissed about it originally. But you know what....its happened, and we wont get it back. Its no use complaining about AIPA or even AFAP its already happened. Our conditions are being eroded to a point where we will have no basis to do any bargaining in new EBA's. And that is what management want. And it is exactly what is happening. At least the meeting showed that to a point we have a united front.

It is perplexing that all this rhetoric is aimed at BB. As was said previously he is just a puppet to AJ. I thought the Qantas board would be the place to be lobbying by the Unions. They get fed all this crap by upper management, why not bypass management and let the board really know what really is happenning within the airline. Would this work? dunno, but i think it would be more use than a letter to BB.

Oh and to all you young pilots panicking to do anything to get a quick command PLEASE think about your long term employement conditions and what you are doing to your fellow proffesionals. You may get those four bars at a young age, but you will pay for it for the rest of your career.

[newsensation]

Jetstar India is reportedly starting up, you have to pay for your endorsement, uniform, jeps etc and don't get payed for the first year, and its a one year contract.....:ok:

[UnderneathTheRadar]

The billboard of a 320 with 'L' is excellent. AIPA should also make use of the thread about Oxford ripping off Jetstar trainees by documenting and using the fact that Jetstar appear to be discriminating against more experienced pilots (i.e. ATPL = no start).

Difficult to argue they cant get pilots when they behave like that.

UTR

[Shark Patrol]

I too find it interesting that AIPA are representing Jetstar Pilots when all their flying has come at the expence of mainline pilots.

To those that have made such statements, I think the answer is pretty strightforward really. Regardless of what has happened in the past, Jetstar pilots are now joining AIPA and AIPA therefore has an obligation to protect their interests. If they didn't, Jetstar pilots would leave in droves and join another union.

In the current industrial climate, it is important that as many pilots as possible in the Qantas group are members of AIPA. That is what this thread is all about - stand unified, or fall by the wayside. It's that simple. I have said before that those that are suspicious of AIPA's motivation or actions in the past are just making it easier for those pilots considering joining AIPA to waver and back off. This action just falls into management's hands and makes their job so much easier.

In targetting Jetstar initially, management are taking on a group of pilots that are not as heavily unionised as mainline. This is a test case for them and, I suspect, that if offshore shelf companies are allowed to go through to the keeper without a backlash from the pilot group, then there is nothing to stop a similar arrangement being put in place for the introduction of the "mainline Qantas" 787s.

I think that Qantas has been working to a carefully orchestrated industrial strategy for at least 10 years. Jetconnect and then Jetstar were the initial shots fired in breaking down mainline. Now the same tactics are being used to subvert Jetstar pilots' T&Cs. You should be more motivated than ever to join AIPA and make your voices heard. You should not be questioning AIPA's motivations because to do so just makes it easier for Qantas's industrial goals to be achieved.

[big white bird]

Fair comment.

[Popgun]

Out of interest...roughly what % of J* pilots are represented by AIPA?

PG

[Muff Hunter]

nearing 60%

[breakfastburrito]

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9617/jetstargrouppilotad.jpg (http://img64.imageshack.us/i/jetstargrouppilotad.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Here's a copy of the T&C's for Australian based crew -Air Pilots Award 2010 (http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/modern_awards/pdf/MA000046.pdf).

[Oxidant]

Here's a copy of the T&C's for Australian based crew -Air Pilots Award 2010.

Yet as as these positions are NOT in Australia. Perhaps T & C's for NZ & Sin. would show how "competitive" a package they are offering...................

[breakfastburrito]

Oxidant, my bad...

[shnee]

This I what the SIN T&C look like.

Hourly rate of pay = SGD$200 for Captains (60% for First Officers)
␣ Payment based on scheduled block hours for sectors flown
␣␣ Guaranteed minimum 150 block hours per quarter = Guaranteed annual base salary of SGD$120,000 for Captains (SGD$72,000 for First Officers)
• Bonus ␣␣ A 10% International Posting payment is available on gross earnings (excluding layover allowances
and bonus payments). This will be paid at the completion of each year of service
␣ Bonus will be payable to current JQ pilots relocating to Singapore from their existing role as a response to this EOI
• Annual Leave ␣ 5 weeks per annum (1 week = 7 calendar days including 2 days off) ␣␣ Annual leave = SGD $3,500 per week (SGD $2,100 for First Officers)
• Sick Leave ␣ < 14 days for non-hospitalisation ␣␣ < 60 days if hospitalisation ␣ Sick Leave pay built into base hourly rate
• Staff Travel ␣ Yes – same as for Jetstar Asia Pilots
A330 EOI – SIN 23.7.2010 0
A330 EOI – Proposed Terms & Conditions
• Loss of Licence Insurance
␣ Free of Charge USD$100K for Captains and USD$50K for First Officers (can be topped up at own cost)
␣ Captains currently in JQ relocating to SIN can claim up to SGD$2000 per annum where they opt to source their own insurance (SGD$1200 for First Officers)
▪ Death and Permanent Disability Cover ␣ Free of Charge benefit of 24 months pay @ base salary
• Relocation assistance ␣ Includes flights to Singapore for employee and travel companion plus excess baggage ␣ One (1) return flight to Australia from Singapore per annum for employee and travel companion
• In-Flight Crew Meals Provided ␣ Yes
• Days Off ␣ 8 days off in 28 days or the equivalent averaged over 12 calendar months
• Superannuation ␣ Provision has been included in the base rate and it will be up to each pilot to make their own
arrangements • Layover Allowance
␣ The Company will pay the greater of a set amount per night (determined on a port by port basis) or $5.00 per duty hour for all duty hours either side of an overnight.
A330 EOI – SIN 23.7.2010 1
A330 EOI – Proposed Terms & Conditions Anticipated Earnings Table ($SGD)
Annualised Block Hours 600 650 700 750 800 850 900 950
Captains($SGD) 151,250 162,250 173,250 184,250 195,250 206,250 217,250 228,250
First Officers ($SGD) 90,750 97,350 103,950 110,550 117,150 123,750 130,350
Includes ▪ Hourly Rate @ SGD$200 (SGD$120 for First Officers) ▪ 10% Bonus (based on Gross annual earnings excluding layover allowances and bonuses) ▪ 5 weeks annual leave @ SGD$3500 per week (SGD$2100 for First Officers)

[Oxidant]

Oxidant, my bad...

No problem!

[patienceboy]

So based on the above figures, and after subtracting 9% for super, a new FO (no bonus) would be on the equivalent of:

• $61 000 AUD including leave pay for 600 hrs/year (average 55 hrs/month)
• $88 000 AUD including leave pay for 900 hrs/year (average 83 hrs/month)

Is this for the A330?? :uhoh:

[rmcdonal]

$61 000 AUD including leave pay for 600 hrs/year (average 55 hrs/month) Haha that's what I make on a Dash8 on the same number of hours.

[jibba_jabba]

Hourly rate of pay = SGD$200 for Captains (60% for First Officers)
␣ Payment based on scheduled block hours for sectors flown
␣␣ Guaranteed minimum 150 block hours per quarter = Guaranteed annual base salary of SGD$120,000 for Captains (SGD$72,000 for First Officers)
• Bonus ␣␣ A 10% International Posting payment is available on gross earnings (excluding layover allowances
and bonus payments). This will be paid at the completion of each year of service
␣ Bonus will be payable to current JQ pilots relocating to Singapore from their existing role as a response to this EOI
• Annual Leave ␣ 5 weeks per annum (1 week = 7 calendar days including 2 days off) ␣␣ Annual leave = SGD $3,500 per week (SGD $2,100 for First Officers)
• Sick Leave ␣ < 14 days for non-hospitalisation ␣␣ < 60 days if hospitalisation ␣ Sick Leave pay built into base hourly rate
• Staff Travel ␣ Yes – same as for Jetstar Asia Pilots
A330 EOI – SIN 23.7.2010 0
A330 EOI – Proposed Terms & Conditions
• Loss of Licence Insurance
␣ Free of Charge USD$100K for Captains and USD$50K for First Officers (can be topped up at own cost)
␣ Captains currently in JQ relocating to SIN can claim up to SGD$2000 per annum where they opt to source their own insurance (SGD$1200 for First Officers)
▪ Death and Permanent Disability Cover ␣ Free of Charge benefit of 24 months pay @ base salary
• Relocation assistance ␣ Includes flights to Singapore for employee and travel companion plus excess baggage ␣ One (1) return flight to Australia from Singapore per annum for employee and travel companion
• In-Flight Crew Meals Provided ␣ Yes
• Days Off ␣ 8 days off in 28 days or the equivalent averaged over 12 calendar months
• Superannuation ␣ Provision has been included in the base rate and it will be up to each pilot to make their own
arrangements • Layover Allowance
␣ The Company will pay the greater of a set amount per night (determined on a port by port basis) or $5.00 per duty hour for all duty hours either side of an overnight.
A330 EOI – SIN 23.7.2010 1
A330 EOI – Proposed Terms & Conditions Anticipated Earnings Table ($SGD)
Annualised Block Hours 600 650 700 750 800 850 900 950
Captains($SGD) 151,250 162,250 173,250 184,250 195,250 206,250 217,250 228,250
First Officers ($SGD) 90,750 97,350 103,950 110,550 117,150 123,750 130,350
Includes ▪ Hourly Rate @ SGD$200 (SGD$120 for First Officers) ▪ 10% Bonus (based on Gross annual earnings excluding layover allowances and bonuses) ▪ 5 weeks annual leave @ SGD$3500 per week (SGD$2100 for First Officers)

Oh my, thats pretty bad....... that is not tempting me to do anything but reject the call....... :=

[Bo777]

$61000-88000 flying as an A330 FO based in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Wtf??? Who's going to do that? J* are kidding themselves if they think they're going to get experienced drivers. Safety will ultimately be sacrificed in order to maximise the ceo's bonuses. The public need to become aware of this total exploitation and lack of duty of care to it's cutomers. Unbelievable! Onya J*:yuk:

[Tiburon peligroso]

Hey breakfastburrito
They look like brothers! Guess the sisters are serving cafe in the cabin!

Just love them smiles....

[Mr Pilot 2007]

I dont see any mention of an accomodation allowance.

So it appears its up to each pilot to sign a lease and pay for it out of their salary.

I understand there are quite a number of new Indian CPL holders that are unemployed as a result of this recession. Sending whats left of their income after rent & cost of living may be ok with their exchange rate.

Not so sure when you convert it to Aussie dollars though, unless of course saving for a mortgage for when you return to Australia isnt important to you.

Then again, with this appalling trend by j*, you may never be able to return to Aus for a pilots position, but rather only return upon your retirement.

[caneworm]

Sign up for the J* cadet programme & apply for HECS to cover your costs.
You will not be required to repay the HECS debt ‘cos you’ll never cross the income threshold.

[A. Le Rhone]

What in God's name are we allowing to be done to our profession?

[Counter-rotation]

mourgo - are you supplying suitable applicants with a TR if required?! :E

Don't worry about replying, on the off chance that your post is not a wind up...

CR

[DrPepz]

I dug out this article from 2007. How does the SQ pay compare with Jetstar SIN base?

-----


Boeing 777 captains get higher pay than SIA vice-presidents
Karamjit Kaur, Aviation Correspondent
665 words
24 April 2007
Straits Times
English
(c) 2007 Singapore Press Holdings Limited
Details of airline's salary structure revealed on first day of hearing to settle pay dispute with pilots' union


A SINGAPORE Airlines Boeing 777 captain at the mid-point of his salary bracket makes more than $270,000 a year.


This makes him a bigger earner than a vice-president of the company, who makes $233,270.


SIA has 935 B777 captains and just 36 vice-presidents.


Details of the airline's pay structure for pilots and other staff came to light yesterday, Day 1 of the Industrial Arbitration Court (IAC) hearing to settle a dispute with its pilots' union over salary and benefits.


The pilots have been pushing for higher wages to be paid to those who will be in the cockpit of the Airbus 380 superjumbo, which enters into service later this year.


The High Court hearing follows more than a year of wrangling, during which the two sides met 16 times.


For over two hours yesterday, SIA divisional vice-president for industrial relations Loh Oun Hean, and Captain Robert Ting, vice-president of the Flight Operations Division and chief pilot for the A380, told the court why pilots should not be paid more to fly the A380.


The airline is proposing that A380 and B777 pilots get the same pay; it intends eventually to pay all pilots a common basic salary, regardless of the aircraft type they fly.


The Air Line Pilots Association-Singapore (Alpa-S) argues that A380 pilots should be paid more than those who fly the Boeing 747 jumbo because the new plane is bigger.


Each of SIA's A380s will seat around 480 passengers, about 100 more than the Boeing 747 jumbo now in service.


The airline, in presenting its case to the three-member IAC panel led by IAC president, Justice Tan Lee Meng, said that between 55 and 60 per cent of a pilot's basic pay now depends on the type of aircraft he handles.


For all other payments, including bonuses and productivity allowances, the distinction is between captains and first officers - not type of plane flown.
For instance, a captain makes $55 an hour for the first 70 hours, and a first officer, $36.


Turning to the technical specifications of the A380 and comparing it with other planes in SIA's present and future fleet, Capt Ting told the courtroom packed with more than 60 staff and union members that the truth was that the A380 was really not that difficult to fly.


A pilot for 36 years who test-flew the A380 when it visited Singapore last year, he said the side stick controllers were light and easy to operate.
'I just flew it with my finger tips,' he said.


Although the A380 is heavier, has a taller tail and longer wingspan compared to other jets, technology and automation erased the impact of this added bulk on piloting.


Capt Ting said the plane's operational scope was 'no more complex than the current and future fleets of SIA'.


Because modern aircraft have similar instrument layouts - especially those built by the same manufacturer - an Airbus 345 pilot, for example, would feel 'instantly at home' in an A380 cockpit.


Capt Ting declared that, with the exception of the B747 jet designed more than 30 years ago, there was really no big difference between flying the A380 and any other modern jet.


He noted that the A380, with its four engines, should also be less stressful to fly than, say, a twin-engined B777, which would lose up to half its thrust during take-off if one engine failed.


He also stressed that a pilot's responsibility did not change with the aircraft type he flew: A captain flying a small single-aisle plane still had to go through the same pre-flight and systems checks.


The hearing continues with Alpa-S presenting its case today.

[Mr Pilot 2007]

I believe SQ mainline are paid other allowances on top of their salary. Eg: rent allowance.

[DrPepz]

Yes those figures were presumably for SQ local pilots. I believe expat pilots are paid a rent allowance and and educational allowance for kids. The number of expat pilots at SIA seem to be dwindling though, it's been ages since I got one on my SIA flights.

[KABOY]

The expat contract was effectively withdrawn.

If you were an expat at SQ and remained there, your terms and conditions were renegotiated in line with their local pilots.

[DrPepz]

I know the SIA pilots' union fought for the expat bases in London, Perth, Sydney etc to be shut. However I believe the expat T&Cs are still around.

However if SQ claimed back in 2007 that local B777 FOs were getting S$270k per annum all up, how does this compare to JQ's A330 base in SIN for 2011?

[Mr. Hat]

Not sure if its been posted but..
Inexperienced cadets in Jetstar pilots' seats - Airline News - etravelblackboard.com (http://www.etravelblackboard.com/article/108189/inexperienced-cadets-in-jetstar-pilotsapos-seats)

Inexperienced cadets in Jetstar pilots' seats
Wednesday, 1 September 2010


http://i.etbnews.com/etb/article/2010/108189.jpg
Jetstar Airbus A321-200

Jetstar's new cadetship training program has been condemned by pilots, the airline accused of putting profits before safety.
At a meeting last week, almost 400 pilots met to discuss Jetstar's planned employment changes, and said that under Jetstar's pilot training program cadets with "substantially less" experience will be in charge of powerful aircraft, the ABC reported.
Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) President Barry Jackson told the news site airlines are putting savings ahead of passenger safety.
"Young pilots have to pay a substantial amount of money to enter the industry and then work on a reduced salary for the first few years so therefore it is a saving for the airline," he said.
"Airline fares have dropped a lot and therefore the airline companies have to find ways of saving money."
According to AIPA, under traditional standards, pilots require a minimum flying experience of 1,000 to 1,500 hours before they are permitted into the pilot's seat.
However, Jetstar's cadetship program would put cadets with just 200 hours of flying experience in charge of commercial planes, a trend that is likely to take off across the globe, Mr Jackson said.
"We're introducing a lower level of experienced pilot in an aircraft," he told the ABC.
"Cadets have a lot less hours...and with the expansion that is likely to go on around the Asia-Pacific region, we will see a lot less experienced pilots entering flight decks.
"To put a fairly inexperienced pilot in the right-hand seat of a jet or a high-speed turbine puts a lot of pressure on the pilot in the left-hand seat.
"We want to ensure proper training is carried out throughout all the industry so that our standards are kept up to the very high levels we've come to expect in Australia."
A Jetstar spokesman rejected APIA's safety concerns, telling the ABC, that the airline "conducts its business to the highest safety standards".
"This is about providing the opportunity for highly skilled individuals to take a streamlined approach to entry into a major domestic and international airline with a world-class quality provider," he said.
"Further, they will participate in a funding arrangement where candidates avoid the significant up-front fees should this be done by them individually."
The Jetstar Group website offers prospective pilots, "a new and exciting career pathway to become a First Officer flying on modern Airbus A3320...aircraft" under a program which sees would-be pilots pay an upfront fee to Jetstar while the remainder of their training fees is taken from their future pay packets. and


Jetstar boss doesn't fly with pilots - Airline News - etravelblackboard.com (http://www.etravelblackboard.com/showarticle.asp?id=107906)
Jetstar boss doesn't fly with pilots
Tuesday, 24 August 2010
Almost 400 pilots have issued a “no confidence” vote in Jetstar Group boss Bruce Buchanan following Jetstar’s proposed planned employment changes.
Just weeks after Mr Buchanan was promoted to Group Chief Executive in line with the company’s strategy to expand its Asia region operations, about 400 disgruntled pilots packed Sydney's Wolli Creek Rowers Club in protest, the Sydney Morning Herald reported.
Angry that Jetstar’s expansion into Asia would see Singapore and Vietnam-based pilots transferred to Australia and paid only award rates, the pilots passed a unanimous motion declaring the move “an offensive attempt by Jetstar management...to pit pilots against each other to secure their careers", the newspaper reported.
Pilots also declared that they "no longer have confidence Bruce Buchanan as the Group Chief Executive Officer of the Jetstar group".
The meeting saw predominantly Jetstar and Qantas pilots encouraged to "not to do the airline any favours" during September.
According to the newspaper’s source Australian and International Pilots Association officials advised pilots against illegal industrial action, but to "do what they could within the law", including refusing to show up early for pre-flight planning, likely to result in flight delays.
Further action considered would see pilots refusing to work outside scheduled hours and not taking on more than a minimum load of fuel, meaning flight diversions should in-flight delays occur.
"We don't want to do anything that will cause delays to passengers," a Jetstar pilot told the newspaper.
"But we do want Jetstar and Qantas to stop undermining our wages and conditions and opportunities to progress through the company by putting pilots into shelf companies where our Enterprise Bargaining Agreement doesn't apply."
Jetstar's head of corporate relations, Simon Westaway told the Sydney Morning Herald rumours of a go-slow by Jetstar pilots have been in circulation for some time, but the airline's on-time performance figures did not reflect pilot action on this front.
"We've got a good, tight airline that is committed to the best service delivery to customers," Mr Westaway said.

the word is spreading...

[The Green Goblin]

200 Chinese pilots 'falsified resumes' | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/chinese-pilots-falsified-resumes/story-e6frfku0-1225914917764)

Another reason why we don't want these chaps flying airliners into Australia :uhoh:

CHINESE authorities are investigating the qualifications of the nation's commercial pilots after revelations that more than 200 of them had falsified their resumes.

The probe comes after 42 people died on August 24 when a Brazilian-made regional jet flown by Henan Airlines crashed at a small airport in northeastern China's Heilongjiang province.

Fifty-four passengers and crew survived the crash, in which the plane missed the runway, sparking speculation that pilot error was to blame.

The investigation was launched by the Civil Aviation Administration of China, the country's aviation regulator, the central government's news website said.

The resumes of more than 200 Chinese commercial pilots were found to have been falsified, the report said, with some of them embellishing their flight histories.

At least half of the pilots in question worked for Shenzhen Airlines, which owns Henan Airlines, the government report said.





Investigators were looking into the possibility of pilot error in the Henan Airlines crash, it added.

The crash was China's first major air disaster in nearly six years.

Authorities have already ordered safety checks of the country's fast-growing civil aviation fleet of 1300 planes in the wake of the disaster.

Last week, the aviation administration said it was looking for crash clues related to the plane's manufacturer, operator, crew, maintenance record, and with air traffic management and the airport authorities.

Authorities in central Henan province have also ordered the airline to change its name to prevent the crash from tarnishing the province's image. The company had previously been known as Kunpeng Airlines.

The accident occurred after the plane missed the runway and crashed into a field next to the airport, cracking the cabin and triggering an explosion and subsequent fire, state media reported earlier, citing an initial probe.

[Mr. Hat]

The CEO's of these low cost carriers are really a danger to the industry and the travelling public. Buchanan wants 200 hr foreign trained pilots to take over the jobs of Australian trained and experienced pilots. O'Leary wants an FA instead of a first officer.

I know its unlikely to happen but its the dangerous attitude of these individuals that is the real concern.

Is it time for a psychiatric assessment to be put in place for these "staff members"?



Ryanair's Michael O'Leary Criticised For Plan To Replace Co-Pilots With Air Stewardesses | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Ryanairs-Michael-OLeary-Criticised-For-Plan-To-Replace-Co-Pilots-With-Air-Stewardesses/Article/201009115713986?lpos=UK_News_Second_Home_Page_Article_Teaser _Region_8&lid=ARTICLE_15713986_Ryanairs_Michael_OLeary_Criticised_For_ Plan_To_Replace_Co-Pilots_With_Air_Stewardesses_%20)

5:37pm UK, Saturday September 04, 2010
Sarah Gordon, Sky News Online
Airline pilots have accused Ryanair's Michael O'Leary of endangering passengers' safety after he called for co-pilots to be replaced with air stewardesses

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Jul/Week1/15330272.jpg

Dismissing the vital role of second pilots, Mr O'Leary suggested money could be saved by getting rid of them all together.
If the pilot were to run into problems he suggested an air stewardess, trained to land the plane, could step in.
However, his flippant comments have led to outcry among pilots, who claim the decision would put passengers' lives at risk.
The British Airline Pilots' Association said the move would be "unwise and unsafe" with one senior pilot going as far as to say it would be a "recipe for business disaster."
His suggestion is unwise, unsafe and the public will be horrified.
BALPA spokesperson
The Ryanair boss, who has headed the airline for 17 years, made the comments in an interview with Bloomberg Businessweek magazine.
"Really, you only need one pilot. Let's take out the second pilot. Let the bloody computer fly it," he said.
"If the pilot has an emergency, he rings the bell, he calls her in, she could take over."
A BALPA spokesman condemned the comments, saying: "Are there no lengths to which he will not go to get publicity?
"His suggestion is unwise, unsafe and the public will be horrified."
A senior pilot, who wished to remain anonymous, also criticised the move, saying: "The public have no wish to be flown at cheap rate into their graves."
He said that although Mr O'Leary may think "he will be laughing all the way to the bank", he would in fact see a worried public "desert him".
"In reality, it would be a recipe for business disaster, with the public deserting the airline in droves."
This is not the first time the Ryanair boss has landed himself in hot water with controversial comments, deigned to create maximum publicity for the airline.
Mr O'Leary has already suggested the airline reduce the number of toilets on board and make them coin operated to bring in more money.
He also put forward plans for stand-up space on flights, an idea that was rubbished by the European Aviation Safety Agency.

[Captain Dart]

O'Leary is a firm believer in the adage 'there's no such thing as bad publicity'. Every few months he comes out with statements about outrageous ideas such as 'charging to use the aircraft toilets', 'Ryanair staff should nick the free pens from hotels' etc etc. He spaces out these to keep his company in the news.

Getting back to the thread: I am an 89'er. In 'that year' we didn't just talk, we took action, rightly or wrongly. But at least we did something.

Question is: after this big meeting in Sydney, after all the talk and tub thumping on PPrune, what are the pilots of Australia going to DO?

[The Green Goblin]

When did these idiots without understanding of the basic concept of flying take over the industry anyway? He must either want some headlines or have no comprehension of what being a Pilot is really all about. In fact I get criticized by family and friends all the time about how Pilots are obsolete and airliners fly themselves these days. People have been oversold the automation aspect of aircraft. Once in the Kimberley while landing a 210 a passenger asked how the auto-land worked in the aircraft I was flying. :ugh: Passengers used to get a real shock when I told them the Metro didn't even have an autopilot and a flight director was something we could only dream about.

I really think the public need to be re-educated as to the role of an Airline Pilot, even cabin attendants have no idea. I was buying a coffee at an airport the other morning at 9am after 2 sectors and an early hour sign on, and struck up a conversation with the said attendant. She remarked how exhausted she was after an early sign on and how she was looking forward to heading home. I remarked I had signed on at the same time and was heading off for another 2 sectors. She replied, "ah well, you guys don't do much so I suppose they can work you a little longer" :ugh:

Traditionally Pilots started, ran and oversaw airlines and aviation companies. When business got in the way is when it turned to poo.

Perhaps we really should look at become major shareholders in our respective Airlines. Instead of 30k+ for an endorsement, perhaps a similar share procurement. Maybe then we would even have a seat on the board and have the right to vote out these self indulging arrogant (i'll steal sunfishes lingo here) narcissists and get some positivity back in our workplace and profession again.

Has anyone got the PR stuff on the roll yet?

[Shark Patrol]

The expression of the CEO in the above photo seems to sum up his intellect pretty well.

Maybe he should change his name to O' TOOL .

[Mr. Hat]

GG know the feeling.

FA's where I work think the FO is just some dude that tags along to keep the Captain company.

The education you talk of is coming. It'll be in the form of a runway overrun a mid air or a CFIT at the hands of some poor bastard thats baby sitting some 18 year old from a third world country.

Low Cost? High Risk.

or

Low Cost? Russian Roulette.

Good Luck Joe Average.

[Anthill]

I look upon O'Leary and his cohorts with a mixture of pity and contempt. I call them "Penguins" because they are flightless birds. They work in our industry but cannot fly. They dream of doing what we do, but simply, they aren't good enough to do our work. They are just pen-pushing bores who are a waste of my time and I cannot even be even bothered to spit upon their faces. Because they lack the ability and the "cool" to have our job, they are envious and seek to put us down. Sorry O'Leary(and Godfry et-al), did I steal you Girlfriend once?? People like you fail to inspire and just fill me with inertia. You are boring and lack our sex-appeal and you know it. :ok: Losers..

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

D!ckheads..:zzz:

[GADRIVR]

Anthill....I just tried saying out loud your last post using a bad French accent. Try it....funny stuff!!!

[Tidbinbilla]

Forget O'Leary and his sensational claptrap. He has to get his airline in the news somehow :8:}

Let's get back on topic, please.

[Wally Mk2]

Sadly there's a little bit of "O'Leary" in the general public. One often hears from someone not in the airline game same....."you guys have it easy the auto pilot does all the work" ........So Mr & Mrs' gen pub wouldn't think it too odd to remve one of the pilots up front especially when they also think we are all over paid for just sitting there!:sad:.
There may well come a time when there is only one human up front but it won't :sad:be in our time.


Wmk2

[A. Le Rhone]

Can we forget this bloke, discussing such nonsense only plays his PR game.

Back on track - I'm not in Australia so not aware of behind the scenes events but what is being done to continue the outpouring of support demonstrated at the meeting?

Has there been any move to unite Professional Pilot Associations? Although one or two office jobs might be lost, rationalizing and streamlining our pilots union is the only way to take on CEO's who wish to denigrate the profession of career aircrew and reduce Terms and Conditions of employment. One strong advocacy group is far more powerful than a number of fractured and impotent groups.

And what of the most important tool in this battle - our PR campaign aimed initially at the public but essentially at the politicians? The pollies are the only people who can force Australian airlines, for the benefit of the Australian traveller to hire only Australian trained citizens or those who have been through a training program totally acceptable to CASA and who have a minimum of 1500hrs flying experience (as Congress in the USA has recently mandated).

Again apologies for not knowing more but has there been any further movement? Hopefully the meeting was just the start of a concerted revamping of Professional Pilots in Australia and not just a one-off venting of frustration that won't go anywhere.

Hopefully there is more progress to come.

[Mr. Hat]

Agreed even though I made the first post regarding him. My point way that this Lower and Lower Cost ideology is getting dangerous and unrealistic as is importing people on lower conditions.

Back to J* or whoever else wants to offshore Australian jobs.

[Cactusjack]

There seems to be a common thread amongst Irish CEO's by the look of things ?
Causal factor - They were born complete knobs.

[AerospaceTechnology]

I'm sorry that I was not there, but so glad to see support is happening. Australian Aviation has been significantly vandalized since the late 80's and it seems this trend is continuing.

I sincerely hope we all stick together and pray for some politicians with integrity (extremely rare species) to gain power, and that the aviation industry eventually lobby for some common sense to return.

Fuel tax funds FAA in the U.S. just like Australia of a few decades ago. The TAX rate in Oz has already seriously erroded much of the industry and privatization of monopoly assets is nothing short of theft.

If we stand united, we will return respect for air-crew and facilitate appropriate work conditions everywhere.

Oz jobs for Oz pilots - no compromise

[Normasars]

Yes, what timing WRT the DJ A330 assignments.

I can see this really helping our cause. NOT.

Watch the wannabes try and weasel their way into these positions at the expense of the "pilot body" and unity. I hope I will be proved wrong, but I bet my left one I won't.

[airtags]

the 330 dance is not good for the collective - refer particularly the emphasis on "knowldge of the NZ reg environment" which was gently buried in the text.

For those that only read tabloids, need subtitles or have trouble undertsanding the aviation agenda:........ it suggests the liklihood of the fruits of a bi-lateral pirate arrangement that again puts Australian jobs and Australian route capacity together with the substandard pay and T&C's of less fortunate places.

Sooner we all get smarter and start playing a more strategic, united game the better.

:E AT

[Eastmoore]

All Pilots of Australia: Meeting


What:An all Australian Pilot meeting to develop a response to the career threatening FSO 136/10 and especially the off-shoring of Australian jobs by Jetstar Airways (Qantas Group member).

When:1pm on Monday, 27 September 2010

Where:
Mantra Tullamarine Hotel, corner Melrose Drive and Trade Park Drive, Tullamarine VIC.

Some on-street parking is available and paid parking is accessible at the rear of the hotel.

The venue is a 5 minute drive from Melbourne Airport - CLICK HERE (http://www.aipa.org.au/tabid/125/ctl/EmailTracking/mid/510/Default.aspx?linkID=453&[email protected]) to view a map.

To assist us in hiring the correct room size, please RSVP by emailing [email protected] ([email protected]) or [email protected] ([email protected]) or call 03 9938 3898.

All Australian Pilots that are not flying at this time, regardless of AIPA, AFAP or non-union membership are encouraged to attend.

This will definitely affect the career of ALL Australian Pilots.

[mustman]

Maybe make a separate post Eastmoore and get it stickied, rather than having the next meeting buried 23 pages deep into an existing thread.

Guys and girls of Melbourne its now your time to stand up!

[propblast]

Ok, so since this was first raised in August of last year, what has happend?

Can anyone give an update? Anything at all.

Or have we lost momentum/headed in the wrong direction/rolled over and let the masters scratch our tummy and tell us we are special whilst they take away our bone?

[fender]

Last comment is correct.
Every man woman and child pilot for themselves.

[Normasars]

was ALWAYS going to be the outcome. Surprise surprise!!

[Keg]

I wouldn't say it was a total waste. J* crew now respond to my 'G'day' in the terminal or waving as we taxi past 3 out of 5 times- up from 1 in 5 prior to the meetings. :ok:

Spoke to some union reps a while back. Some stuff going on behind the scenes that suggests that things are moving in the right direction. The 'shot across the bows' appears to have had some impact. I guess we'll know more in the next 2-3 years.

[John Citizen]

Actually many things have happened...things are only getting worse every day........:{

[rodchucker]

Brewster,

If that is true then you need to disclose a few verifiable details rather than generalities. Lets try name of company, shareholders and date of set up all of which is available on public record.

Assuming individuals if involved would have required disclosure re remuneration report and if that wasn't done then there are possibly Corps Law issues involved depending on the facts.

If you cannot substantiate then I suggest you withdraw the comment.

Even if PP is a rumour network there are limits and trust me I am no fan of the rat or this lot.

You had better be right making those allegations/statements.

Just trying to keep everyone safe.