H500 accident near Minsk 1 Fatal

[VeeAny]

German Pilot Dies in Helicopter Crash Near Minsk (http://english.cri.cn/6966/2010/08/09/2021s587474.htm)

RIP

A helicopter crashed Sunday during the CIS Open Cup in Helicopter Sport near Belarusian capital Minsk, killing the pilot.
"A U.S.-made MD-500 helicopter operated by a pilot from Germany fell at the airfield in Borovaya. The pilot died," Interfax was told by the Emergency Situations Ministry of Belarus.
A ministry official said that the helicopter operated by Guenther Zimmer was approaching the landing strip but fell and started burning.
A team was working on the scene to put out the fire.

[Morane]

Hi,

there is a video

German pilot killed in crash during helicopter tournament in Minsk (Video:%20German%20pilot%20killed%20in%20crash%20during%20he licopter%20tournament%20in%20Minsk)

Joe

Video link (http://belapan.com/plugins/players/video.php?path=/webroot/delivery/files/freemedia/video/2010/08/1/20100808_air_down.flv&date=08.08.2010%20%2017:33&rubric=Videos&title=Video%3A+German+pilot+killed+in+crash+during+helicopte r+tournament+in+Minsk&x=320&y=266&id=2643566)

[parasite drag]

Sad news indeed...

I watched an H500 displaying at The World Helicopter Championships in Rouen a few years back....the guy nearly didn't make it out of the loop back then...same pilot perhaps ??

RIP

[VeeAny]

I hadn't realised when I posted this, that it was at an organised event and that some of our own fraternity were there.

That cannot have been pleasant to see first hand.

[Capt.Gonzo]

Very Sad :{

From what I see on the Video this is a very low altitude to try a loop :confused:

RIP

[ecureilx]

2EpsabLtvxs

Somebody sent this to me ..

[Shawn Coyle]

I hate to say it, but another example of a maneuver from into wind to down wind.
Not much wind blowing, but you can see it from the post-crash smoke.

[Spunk]

from various sources:

The pilot was 74 year old Guenter Z. from Dinslaken/Germany. At least he died while doing what he liked most.

RIP

[skadi]

The pilot received the "rotorcraft gold medal 2010" from the FAI, which should have given to him in Dublin/Ireland on Oct. the 7th 2010.

http://www.fai.org/rotorcraft/system/files/CIG_Minutes_2010.pdf

skadi

[chopjock]

Shawn

I hate to say it, but another example of a maneuver from into wind to down wind.


I don't see that. The loop started and ended into wind.

[Morane]

Hi,

one question from a fixed wing pilot.
Is the roll to the left the result of a retreating blade stall?

Joe

[Earl of Rochester]

- Morane

Specifically which roll to the left?

EoR

[Ned-Air2Air]

One thing which seems to stand out in the video is as he comes off the top he keeps a very nose down attitude for some time before bringing the nose up and attempting to recover. Seems like it stayed pointing straight at the ground for a long time.

[Hell Man]

The nose down sequence may have been a bit longer than usual but wouldn't have been so noticeable had there been more height. The dude mucked up pure and simple - and lack of height was his sole mistake.

I saw so much in Nam, blood n guts all the time, somehow managed to deal with it then. These days I get really moved when I see this kinda sh*t ... an old man still flyin and tryin and then plowin into the ground - it felt really bad seein the clip. :(

I guess I'm gettin older and weaker in my emotions!

Hope the dude rests in peace. Will raise a glass to him on Friday at the airport bar.

[DennisK]

Ref Gunter's sad accident ... yes he was flying at the Rouen event in 2005 and as has already been noted, during his display sequence he came extremely close to the suface following an almost identical manoeuvre. I did go over to him as he was closing down to see if he was OK. After my own 'near miss' in Salt Lake City in June 2008, I'm beginning to ask myself if it is sensible for we display pilots to continue such flying. My accident occurred after 1223 uneventful public displays over a thirty-five year period, but I suppose the more one displays the possibility of such an accident inevitably increases.

In my Royal Air Force days I displayed various aircraft, (Meteor & Canberra) and generally I'd say that the display handling of a fixed wing is mostly predictable. Not so with some manoeuvres on rotary, especially the low 'G' ... low airspeed sequences where translational speed is lost at the top of the wing-over and needs to be regained in the descent. In a downwind manoeuvre recovery situation ... that can sometimes take longer than the time available before the machine runs out of height. Studying Gunter's manoeuvre, that may well have been a primary cause.

Its a mixed bag of emotions. I surely love display flying and the pleasure one is providing for the paying public and also the rewarding feedback I get, but I've now lost three display friends and none of us want to see any more such accidents.

I'd be especially interested in feedback and various views by fellow pilots.

Safe flying to all out there. Dennis Kenyon.

[Garfs]

I hate to say it, but another example of a maneuver from into wind to down wind.
Not much wind blowing, but you can see it from the post-crash smoke.

As far as i can see it started and ended into wind

Anyhow, very sad indeed :(

[Nigel Osborn]

I agree with Dennis in that you can only do just so many exciting displays. After 45 years in helicopters, having done my first little display in 1964, by the time I was in my 60s I had toned down my display. Naturally I was never in Dennis's class but the crowd seemed happy.

I remember a naval pilot many years ago who specialised flying a plank wing at 500 ft & bunting to fly very low down the runway upside down. After a 2 year desk job, Farnborough asked him to display & he agreed. He practised over a railway line for track guidence but his ego wouldn't let him start higher than 500 ft. His reflexes, etc had slowed & he flew into the ground & was killed.

In other words with age or lack of currency, any aircraft can & will bite you. These days I just watch, much safer!!:ok:

[Brian Abraham]

A repost from http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/421993-cf-18-down-lethbridge-alberta-2.html

Originally posted by WeeWinkyWilly
The Low-down on Low and Slow
What is the most common cause of airshow type mishaps, from historical safety investigation data?
I'm still haunted by some of the mistakes that I made over many low-level displays (jets/big radials/ 4 engined/glider/helo). I guess it's just a stage that you can go through in a military career. The motivation was never to stun the crowd, it was always that you had to/needed to show your peers that you could "cut the mustard".....mixed in with an element of immortality and "it won't ever happen to me". The mistakes were many and varied. On one (grad parade), due to comms difficulties with the Master of Ceremonies, I'd forgotten to arm the smoke before rolling inverted at 300ft overhead and pushing during the high-speed advent pass from behind the crowd. I then fumbled the initial lunge for the side-panel switch, and due to inattention/lack of "push", never quite getting the post-overflight inverted zoom height for the pull-through back over the parade ground. That ensuing pull-through was on the buzz/buffet/judder and I had absolutely nothing left to play with (but they told me later that it had sounded "awesome" all the way round the bottom) - and yes, with that all important visual aid of "smoke".

On an earlier display, after the work-up practice sessions at the satellite, I inadvertently left the ventral speedbrake out for the hammerhead tail-slide over the parade ground.....as well as over-pitching and not nailing it in the true vertical. To complicate matters I had a "licenced to interfere" rear-seater. Because of the extended board and due to the fully forward correcting stick input, it fell on its back and we did a turn of an inverted spin before the couples sorted themselves out and we found the nose-down vertical for the half-roll to line and pullout. My vivid memory is of the crowd below splitting to the four points of the compass - toute suite. The RH gear went unsafe (M.I. barber-pole) during the pull-out but I pressed on with the display. Why? The show must go on. I excused myself for that verticality cock-up on the grounds that the check-pilot in the rear had tried to show me his version of my display over the satellite airfield ten minutes earlier - and very nearly cancelled our tickets. I was not hyperventilating, but I was distracted. Anybody would be.
I resolved to get it right for the next grad, but for that, I managed a wholly different can of jackanapes. The final flypast to conclude the display involved approaching the dais at 300ft agl from crowd-front, erect, configured, whilst extreme-yawing L&R, wings-level, in orchestral metronomic syncopation with the band music. The final application of left-ruddered yaw was rushed due to a tailwind, the urgency being to peel off to the right in an accelerating steep turn whilst still short of the dais and while cleaning up. Unfortunately, running out of room, I broke the natural yawing cadence and overcooked it. Due to surprise (and bum reflexes), I only realised it as I was flicking past 90 degrees of left bank. I had little choice but to continue the rapid LH roll through the inverted and pull hard, converting to a dishing steep-turn right (and overspeeding the gear retraction). Friends on the ground, and familiar with the standard display, thought I was just cockily extemporising. I wasn't.

On another type (4 eng), due to a late night I screwed up the time hack at the briefing and ended up mixing it up with a formation of 4 Canberras- through departing the IP a minute early. I still have visions of aircraft flashing by left and right as they broke. Friends in the crowd told me that it looked for all the world like a coordinated cross-over and nobody criticised the inept stunt. Lead Nav told me later that he'd suspected that I'd got the on-stage time wrong, but said nothing.

In yet another fiasco, during a practice over the base I let the jet's nose drop badly during a garbage roll at 300 ft AGL. I'd always had limited success with that maneuver up to that point, yet I was loathe to drop it from my display..... as it was traditional. A visiting two-star brass-hat saw it and I got carpeted - but they never did any more than question my judgment.... not my competence, nor technique. I'd actually thought I was dead (face full of ground only) - and don't know to this day how I extricated myself. I eventually nailed that maneuver, as I had to. Why? Because it was always included in that display - no matter who flew it. The trick was to enter the roll nose-low and pitching up whilst adding power. Nobody ever told me, I worked it out for myself. In those years, one's training for displays was limited to getting nominated and sitting rear-seat with the incumbent for a run-through (two if you were lucky).

For the jet trainer display I developed a phobia about doing the stall turn at low-level and always did a very unobvious slow and ballistic wing-over in lieu. Whilst it was a solution for the phobia, it was probably more hazardous than a properly executed stall turn. But the phobia stemmed from a hung-up, over-ruddered stall turn over a satellite airfield. Nobody at home there. It would have been a very lonely unobserved death, a tell-tale pall of smoke in the far distance and no "ops normal" call. Later, in the big radial, I developed a phobia about doing anything but a stall turn to the right at low-level. That meant that, to be true to my tight sequence, I always had to enter the arena from stage right. I had many animated discussions with leader people at air-show briefs who just wouldn't accept that quirky foible. The rotten machine just didn't want to go round to the left - against engine/prop torque - so it was quintessentially a matter of survival to hold sway in any such argument. I flew that display so many times, mainly because of initial under-confidence, that I eventually became complacent. Two events nearly brought me back to earth. The first was a radio dropping out of its rack-mount during an inverted loop and the second was due to that uncontrollable variable of undetected wind-drift. The XO had already warned me about my Derry reversing too close to the display line and here I was, about to overfly the crowd-line. Halfway through the Derry I converted into an inverted turn away and became totally disoriented. I watched video of it later and it almost looked intentional, but it was merely a panic-stricken last-ditch attempt to avert further verbal laceration from the XO. So maybe you don't want to hear it, but more often than anybody would ever realise, display pilots are often reacting like a trapped mongoose. Whether victims of circumstance, nonchalance, overconfidence or just poor judgment, you will often be watching a man in impure survival mode - but never realising it unless a tragedy happens.

I normally felt at home in close formation at low-level but whilst playing "follow the leader/catch me if you can" at 300ft over my leader's AirForce alma mater one Sunday, returning from an air display, I instantly learnt the value of never underexpecting the unexpected. Without telling me, he'd let his buddies know that we'd be over at a particular time. I was slowly realising something was afoot because Lead had entered a quick orbit then set heading, leaving me on his wing on listening watch on the enroute VHF whilst himself slipping over to a secret UHF freq for a private chat with his mates. I wasn't privy and just staying riveted in echelon right when I suddenly saw lead enter what I initially discerned as a roll into a RH turn at 300ft. He may have called it - but on his "silent" freq. Almost too late, I realised that he'd apparently forgotten I was there and was slow-rolling right (i.e. into me) in the ontop. I popped up and slow-rolled to the left (over him) into echelon left. He never mentioned it later and obviously just assumed that I'd copied his R/T advisory and coped well with his oblivious pecadillo roll. In the interest of a quiet life and continued friendship, I never took him to task. Error leads to later terror.
On yet another 4Eng type an older, more mature WeeWinky developed an impressive end of display exit stage right that involved a lightweight, well below VMCA maximap flapped climb from 100ft to 3500ft at a body angle of around 45 degrees nose-up. Copilot was quite junior and trusting, but FE's were old salts and unhappy about it. I rationalised that even if we lost an outboard we were so light-weight that I could simply bring the symmetrical engine's P/L back quickly and stuff the nose down. Nobody in authority ever questioned the questionable practice and it became a standard. So much for authorisation and supervision in the days of yore. The impressive display sequence was the driver. Safety was all about not getting it wrong, never about safety buffers for malfunctions and misjudgment.... but I had that selectively covered too. CO had been hammering the more junior non-QFI display pilot for a series of overstresses. His excuse was that the g meter was well outa sight. I didn't have that problem. The g meter from my sailplane was always masking-taped to the AoA chevrons on the coaming in front of me - for my tight shenanigans.

But the closest I ever came to oblivion was in accepting a last minute invite to display a Blanik at a glider meet. As a grand finale to an impromptu thrown together sequence of barrells, slow-rolls, stall turns and loops, I dove short of the threshold, pulling up at 10feet/95knots for what was supposed to look like a loop but culminating in a severe nose down bunt with a simultaneous gear down and flap and flare. I'd done it previously with great flare in a plastic sailplane but the Blanik had quite different aerodynamics. The bunting transition to nose down was commenced far too slow and way too nose-high and that nose was very slow coming down to gain anything like flare-speed. The transition to flare was almost 20 knots slow but with max flap and the gear went down at touchdown - and the oleo bottomed out. The video looked good later and the clapping was genuinely enthusiastic as I raised the canopy. However a closer examination of the video disclosed a dark green stain down the lower front of the khaki-green flight suit. I've never come closer to screwing the pooch. It was my last ever flying "display". I never go to airshows nowadays as it would be too traumatic for both me and my family to see someone buy the farm. Those who've never done "display" should always consider their motivation for doing it and the high probability of becoming a statistic... or worse, doing a Ramstein rehash. There were many more incidents than those cited above but I became expert at rationalising my short-comings and congratulating myself for adapting to the situation (i.e. getting away with it yet again). It was only with elderly hindsight that I ultimately realised that I was surviving not by skill or cunning - but only by the Grace of God.
Perhaps the last sentence sums up show flying well. Far too many have bitten the dust.

[Pilot DAR]

Out of respect for the very seasoned helicopter pilots in the audience, I will try to restrain my words, as they would be much more free flowing to an audience of new pilots, be they rotor, or fixed wing.

That said, I'm sure the 260 odd pages of flight manual for the 500 says somewhere in there, that such things should not be attempted. Though I am well aware that flight outside the stated limits of the flight manual is often possible, and maybe even safe in compotent hands. I would not do it for entertainment puproses, and thus would not ask or expect someone else to.

I'm happy to see an aircraft well, and precisely flown. I'm not happy to see flight with the normal margin of safety nonexistant, just so an audience who does not know any better, gets an unrealistic thrill, which they really don't appreciate anyway!

I look forward to seeing demos safely and well flown, though flown as though someone's kids were on board. Seeing limits exceeded, margins of safety reduced, or pilot and machine put at risk really has lost it's appeal for me long ago...

[Earl of Rochester]

Gunter Zimmer

Display routines are frequently about taking aircraft to the edge of their flight envelope and demonstrating rarely seen perfromances of both man and machine. For the most part displaying flying (I am convinced) is a precise and skillful art.

Certainly as a youngster I was inspired many-a-time by the daring (but calculated) maneuvers of capable display pilots. Their endeavours not only magnify the aircraft's performance characteristcs (making the manufacturer's product 'shine') but serve to show that 'more can be done'. For much of the non-flying crowd it enthralls, for professionals it offers assurance that the product can do more than we ask of it.

Regarding Gunter specifically, I think it was said above, this was and is - clearly - an error of judgement involving height.

What are some of the factors? Complacency always lurks as an increasing risk the more you do something. This doesn't have to be an arrogant 'I'm the king of the show' complacency but could simply be that inner voice which says 'I've done this a thousand times before, its going to be fine.'

Display flying, I'm assuming, involves various degrees of precision and so there isn't much room for complacency of any kind. Another factor is varying conditions. Gunter could well have practised his 'loop' from some sea level location where from near take off height he ran up speed, zoomed up and over and perhaps caught a breeze as he levelled out. Low density altitude and a bit of wind can make all the difference - as can the opposite.

When I saw the beginning of the clip I have to admit that I thought some of the maneuvers were slightly uncoordinated but, when I realised the chap was 74 I thought 'okay I understand!', however, we all need friends and perhaps Gunter needed someone to tell hem that what he was doing was terrific for his age but that he needed to modify his display to match his changing skill levels.

Professional performers often review their work on video and engage in critical analysis with those similarly experience in their respective fields - maybe all Gunter needed was a friend to talk him through developing something a little milder?

Regarding the technicalities, is pretty striaghtforward, this and many similar incidents could be prevented by an international air display code which stipulates that for rotaty wing performances all maneuvers exiting in a vertical descent must plan to be level with the display area by no lower than 300ft. Given that most display helicopters (for aerobatics) are generally of small/medium size I would guess that the entry point for bunts, loops and wing-overs etc. would be fairly similar, maybe somewhere around 500-600ft in order to come out at 300ft ... (not entirely sure) and would of course need to be adjusted for density altitude. Levelling out into wind is also obligatory. With such a rule in place these incidents would, I am fairly confident, be reduced.

FYI: Karl Zimmerman (ex-German forces) used to do a stunning display (also with very low level loops - I was concerned for him ... and told him so) in the late 70's early 80's using a military Bo105 .. great stuff!

And for Dennis ... keeping going for it .. but safely .. the best thing is to teach others what you've learnt and let it be the 'golden rule' that when building up vertical descending velocity .. to leave ample clearance with the ground!

[Gordy]

EoR:

When I saw the beginning of the clip I have to admit that I thought some of the maneuvers were slightly uncoordinated but, when I realised the chap was 74 I thought 'Bravo, bloody good show!', however, we all need friends and perhaps Gunter needed someone to tell hem that what he was doing was terrific for his age but that he needed to modify his display to match his changing skill level.

Maybe the best thing said since the accident...maybe I will be more blunt:

Firstly, let me say RIP to the pilot...

When I saw the clip....first thing I thought was--"this show is a mess....the spins are not timed, they are not co-ordinated, it is just not rehearsed". I really thought it was a PPL just trying to show off well above his skill level. Then I heard the guy was in his 70's....I thought, maybe he should have retired years ago......

I have done some "displays", but never really thought of myself as a display pilot. Sometimes we are asked to display the capabilities of the helicopter, and not really given the training time to perfect it. There is an obvious difference between Chuck, (Red Bull USA display pilot), and the average pilot trying to show off a helicopter.

When I started flying tours in Hawaii, the words, (or words to this effect), of Patrick Corr finally made sense to me... "People are impressed by helicopters no matter what---you do not need to show off to prove it".

The most impressive thing I could do for people on helicopter rides was to hold a hover at 1,500 ft and execute a LEVEL pedal turn to give each person a good camera angle at what ever we were looking at, AND NOT make them sick during a one hour tour.

Tis all....

[Hughes500]

Just a thought does anyone know was he trying to do a loop? ( not great for the strap pack on a 500) or was he going for a torque turn and pulled back on the cylic too much going into an inadvertent loop ? Height would be ok for a torque turn but way too close for recovery from a loop not that I have ever done a loop in any 500 nor intend to.
As said by the grace of God:(

[Hell Man]

500 - I don't think he was attempting a wingover (torque turn) as there was positive rear cyclic input at the crest of his vertical climb.

A number of civil helicopters can go inverted including, but not limited to, the Enstrom and Squirrel see: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/418386-army-squirrel-training.html

Back in the 70s-80s there were a bunch of farming pilots .. Kiwi madmen (and I literally mean madmen!) who became deer hunting pilots. Most respectable Kiwi's aren't too keen to tell the truth about what happened in those days but, I think its fair to say (and especially with the H500) that if you can imagine it ... they did it .. including flying through barns (at full speed) under waterfalls, through confined stone outcrops, towing water skiiers .. everything!

One guy, at a BBQ (and after seveal brews), jumped in his 500 and took off almost directly into a loop (a fully inverted loop) with the same result as Gunter here! If you ever meet one of the ex-deer-hunter Kiwi madmen pilots ... they can provide you with an evening's entertainment around the bar while recounting all the mayhem in NZ during that time. They also make pretty convincing deer imitation sounds!

Some display helicopters have modified tail booms and I know of at least one 500 in the US which ran the display circuit and had the straps replaced every 100 hrs or so! The 105 gets away with it because the head is titanium and, for the most part, is able to manage the stress but the pilot does also have that great 'Sherman' device ... 'de mast moment indicator!'

In 1985 I barrel-rolled a Hughes 500D on behalf if its owner who filmed it from a B206 and then showed the vid to his buddies telling them that he was the one flying! I should try post it on You Tube (if I can convert it from VHS!). It was a great experience and immediately I had done it ... I wanted to do it again but ... ended up buying a Christen Eagle II instead!

http://inverted.us/yahoo_site_admin2/assets/images/IM000659.6782428_std.JPG

HM

[chopjock]

H500
or was he going for a torque turn

If he was going for a torque turn, most likely the entry would be down wind.

[Colonal Mustard]

Firstly RIP to Pilot and condolonces to his family

Ultimately he looked to have done whatever manouvre he intended too close to the ground, a sad feature in many a display accident!! :(

[DennisK]

E of R ... Thanks for the encouraging notes and I suppose I will see my 2010 display programme through, but I was rather hoping we might get some feedback from the guys regarding the sense of what we do. On the one hand we are putting on a show for the paying punters, (and we get paid quite well!) but on the other hand are we showing a 'cavalier' side to the discipline of flying? It isn't until there is an accident, that one starts to reconsider.
Gate heights are always a problem but I stick to mine with hoops of steel. Ditto gate speeds. I display the smaller machines, MD500, Sikorsky 300, Enstrom 280 and 480 and I have displayed the Scout. The difficulty is that for an effective display, the small machines need to be closer to the crowd. The service Lynx display pilots put on a technically superior display to any of mine, but mostly in excess of 1000 feet where apart from the general noise and blade slap they don 't seem to resonate quite as well with the crowd. Perhaps a case of a good little 'un beating a big 'un.

Oh and just a small note for the ageist gents. I make 78 in eight weeks! And unless I change plans I'll be flying at the World Freestyle Championship again in Russia next year. Give we VOAP's a chance!

Go on lads ... beat me up a bit please. Dennis K.

[Spunk]

I dare....

Never met you in person Dennis but sure enough I'm impressed by what I've seen from you in the 300.

However I would like to quote "Earl of Rochester":

Gunter needed someone to tell hem that what he was doing was terrific for his age but that he needed to modify his display to match his changing skill level.

Professional performers often review their work on video and engage in critical analysis with those similarly experience in their respective fields - maybe all Gunter needed was a friend to talk him through developing something a little milder?

[fly911]

There's a disturbing instant in the video just past the top of the loop (maybe more in the verticle plain) where it seems as though the aircraft pauses in the recovery and instead of continuing the radius, flattens out the trajectory of the curve. It almost looks as though it could be a wind issue. That instant appears to be followed by an unsuccessful attempt to catch up with aft cyclic and all the collective he had, I imagine. The hard landing almost looks survivable were it not for the fire. In fact, I'm not sure if I am seeing correctly, but it looks like the pilot may have exited the helicopter on fire. Very iffy about that though.

2EpsabLtvxs&feature=player_embedded

[Hell Man]

911 - You can't be serious dude! If your lap or PC doesn't have software to slomo these clips then get it! There's not a hope of surviving an impact like that - my guess is that the cyclic would have been thrust through his torso followed pretty quickly by a slam from the floor of the ship. That was a high velocity impact (in anyone's language).

The 'pause in recovery' just isn't there - watch exactly the same stunt from twice the height and the 'pause' is gone but when you're too low it looks like a pause because of his relativity to the ground.

The 'unsuccessful attempt to catch up with aft cyclic' is actually the moment the dude gets his first look at what's ahead of him and realizes he's gotta do something fast - he tries to level the bird (when you see the tail dip down) but there's too much vertical velocity for the levelling action to make any difference.

I've seen crashes you can walk away from, sadly, this ain't one of them.

[fly911]

So what are you saying? I'm smoking too much wacky weed, or what? I see what I see. I'm not an accident investigator, but it looked like it bounced. No slo-mo, but I watched it a few times. I said that it "almost" looked survivable. Don't forget that this is the same highly survivable roll cage as the famed LOH that many Viet Nam war pilots owe their lives to.

[Morane]

Hi all,

I watched the video several times. At the top of the loop, 1:24, the nose of the helicopter points toward the starting point of the manouver. Whithin 1 sec, as the nose drops, the helicopter rolls 90 deg to the left. Recovery is perpendicular to the line he started. Can someone tell me (fixed wing pilot) what could be the reason for this roll.

Thanks Joe

[birrddog]

Gate heights are always a problem but I stick to mine with hoops of steel. Ditto gate speeds. I display the smaller machines, MD500, Sikorsky 300, Enstrom 280 and 480 and I have displayed the Scout. The difficulty is that for an effective display, the small machines need to be closer to the crowd.
Dennis, as someone who appreciates your work (though unfortunately never seen you perform live), I'd rather continue seeing you performing, with higher gate heights over time, than be there for your last performance!

[Earl of Rochester]

- Morane

I would really like to try and help you so, to be sure .. could you use the video clip from post #28 by fly911 and tell me after exactly how many seconds into the clip is the roll that you are enquiring about.

FYI: Many (but not all) helicopter 'loops' do not fly straight over the top but go slightly to one side in order to place less stress on the rotor system.

Earl

[Morane]

EoR thank you for your reply,

in the video from post#28 the roll started at the beginning of 1:24 and is completed whithin the same second.
It started at the top of the loop. At the same time the nose drops.

Joe

[Gordy]

Dennis

Oh and just a small note for the ageist gents. I make 78 in eight weeks! And unless I change plans I'll be flying at the World Freestyle Championship again in Russia next year. Give we VOAP's a chance!

Go on lads ... beat me up a bit please. Dennis K.

OK---I'll put in my $0.02...... With all due respect.

The various regulations pretty much world wide put age limits on professional pilots flying certain operations. Even to drive, I believe in the UK you have to resit your driving test after a certain age, (I may be wrong on this though). All medical research shows that reflexes, and other skills will deteriorate with age.

Why not go out on a high note. Do what you do best and mentor a younger guy to take over the airshow side of things. You could be involved and still maintain the respect you deserve.

I don't think anyone would think any less of you----I for one would probably have a greater respect.

[staywet]

I thought the same as Gordy. The first few moments were rather untidy and I was expecting to see it plunge into the crowd. Until I realised it was not a new pilot but an air display and therefore the routine would have been passed as safe and competent by a display ticketed pilot.

And my son starts his pplh tomorrow.

As for me, adrenaline is not the reason to fly.

So Whizzard, teach my boy to fly beautifully not excitingly.

And lets not die doing what we love best. Lets die old men in warm beds.

[DennisK]

Thanks for the feedback (Birrdy & Gordy) Genuinely appreciated.

I've just had a rather longer e-mail exchange with another highly experienced rotary man and long time friend, and overall, he feels the same and I'm listening hard.

First on to the display instructing possibility ... I'm frequently asked to do that. But I have to refuse since I could never face the NoK following a fatal, mainly caused by my opening up that particular avenue of flying. We all know what we do is dangerous enough and I don't feel I should add to that risk by encouraging any pilot to explore further the machine's limits.

But I have to come back to a few things. We all fly for either pleasure or money and display flying offers more of both. On that tack, driving at 80mph on a motorway is adding to the risk, but we motorist enjoy it and most of us continue to do so. I've looked very long and very hard at stopping and when a few friends tell you 'perhaps you should' I genuinly take their words on board ... but fellow pilots - I can't easily stop. It is something I have been doing since 1973 on rotary alone, and twenty years on fixed wing before that. You could have asked Bob Hoover about that one.

I seriously feel my age doesn't have a lot to do with any decision. I still comfortably work a 12 to 14 hour day refurbishing my house and completed what was my best ever display (technically and visually) fairly recently, but on the other tack, my Salt Lake City mistake brought me up with a jolt. I've told myself I won't make that mistake again, but no doubt Gunter said the same. I met him on several occasions over the years and we invariably discussed my display manoeuvres and as some of you will know, he began using a similar sequence in recent years.

Now I think I'm rambling, but writing as each thought comes into my head. Thanks for all those who tell me to keep displaying until I know I must stop and ditto to those who offer well thought out advice in the other direction.
I'd dearly like to know how our USA pilots feel especially the Red Ball gents.

Can I close by telling you a couple of true stories. Just a year or so ago, I was chatting at a Filton post display to an ex 'Blue Eagles' team leader. He told me that at age 12, and having seen my 1983 display at Biggin Hill, he promised himself he would do the same as soon as he was old enough. Made me happy to hear that said. Another guy was driving past Shoreham Airfield when I was practicing. He turned into the airfield so he could chat to the pilot. Within a year he had learned to fly and bought his own Enstrom.

Thanks lads for your comments. Take care all. Dennis Kenyon.

PS. My view of the MD500's continued 'nose down' in the descent was to regain translation lift as rapidly as possible but as noted here many times, there was insufficient time to regain full disc response before hitting the ground. RIP Gunter.

[fling-wing_1]

Sad tragedy indeed!

I guess I'll throw my hat in there with the others who confess to enjoying seeing a machine and pilot expressing themselves to the limits of their capabilities. There really is something magnificent about it. With it all though, having seen my share of accidents and having lost friends to accidents I'll confess to a certain uneasiness watching same.

I do find a certain strange wonderment though at the types who recoil in horror at the thought of those who demo aircraft well past the point of performance they would be comfortable with.

A few years ago I made the acquaintance of a gent who was a production test pilot for Hughes back in the Vietnam era. Ah, the stories he would tell...500's regularly looped and rolled, 300's looped and rolled. One in particular stood out: A delivery of 500/OH-6's to a SE Asian country and checkout of local pilots. At the ceremony the flight of new 500's followed the fast movers down the flight line. Trailing the formation came one 500 barrel rolling down the whole flight line. The Hughes exec present for the ceremony looks over at said production test pilot with a dirty look and asks "I wonder where he learned that maneuver?"

As a fellow I know told me when I bought my Brantly recently. "You know, I'm pretty sure that little machine would do a barrel roll no problem." If only I had the guts and training...:}

That being said, do take care Dennis :D

[Earl of Rochester]

- Morane

After observing the maneuver at 1:24 I believe, as hinted earlier, that this is an action to soften out the 'loop' at its very apex (top) in order to reduce the forces on the rotor - an attempt between a torque-turn and a loop. It is either this or just poor control at the loop's apex.

As you've probably seen, one of the world's most capable helicopter aerobatic display pilots (Dennis K) is on this thread - he may have a more insightful view as to why the line of the helicopter is not straight over the top but, above is my considered opinion.

I think it was Hell Man who mentioned the Bo105's titanium rotor head and which is one of the reason's why the well know Chuck Aaron (Red Bull display pilot in the US) is able to pull 'stright back' loops - well actually they are more like back flips!

Earl

http://media.vcstar.com/media/img/photos/2007/08/15/20070815-104455-pic-440811178_t300.jpg

Red Bull display pilot Chuck Aaron (50 yrs)

http://www.redbullusa.com/cs/RedBull/RBImages/000/000/975/692/photo610x343a/041106AF06.jpg

Straight back loop (notice the altitude)


If there are limits to everything, no one told Chuck Aaron. Chuck is the first and only civilian pilot to be licensed by the Federal Aviation Administration to perform aerobatics in a helicopter, which he does 25 times a year across the U.S. in a tricked up BO-105, courtesy of Red Bull.


But of course ... there must always be limits!

Link to Red Bull's official page on Chuck Aaron: Chuck Aaron :: Aerial Sports Pilots :: Red Bull (http://www.redbullusa.com/cs/Satellite/en_US/Profile/Chuck-Aaron-021242751977720)

[RVDT]

Extract as necessary (http://yarchive.net/air/helicopter_loops.html)

[Ned-Air2Air]

One guy, at a BBQ (and after seveal brews), jumped in his 500 and took off almost directly into a loop (a fully inverted loop) with the same result as Gunter here

Hellman - That was Joe Keely and I think it was actually back in 1983 on the outskirts of Taupo that happened. I was staying with Joe and Rosie Westerman out at Joes house in Acacia Bay up until the Thursday, and he and Rosie were killed couple of days later.

[Spunk]

Just another thought:

not having a clue about aerobatics in a helicopter but could it be that the loop was too tight causing higher G-forces resulting in a brief "black out" of the pilot (74 years).
I was wondering why he kept that nose down attitude for such a long time and than did that harsh pull back on the cyclic (regaining consciousness?).

[Morane]

EoR

I tried to copy some frames from the video, but without sucess.
If you compare 1:24 and 1:25, the helicopter altered his flightpath about 90 deg. On top of the loop it seems to roll 90 deg to the left. What looks like a straight line in the loop is the helicopter falling in a knife edge attitude. When the nose points to the ground, the pilot tryed to pull out.

But with the poor quality of the video its difficult to be sure.

Joe

[Morane]

RVDT

thanks for your input.

6) The loop is the worst maneuver to try since the critical place is when you
run out of airspeed at the top, where there is little you can do if you
misjudge except try to roll off the maneuver. If you start falling through,
the cyclic will be less effective, or maybe ineffective, and you'll become a
passenger. The next bad place is when you are staring at houses over the top
of your glare shield, and your airspeed is going rapidly beyond Vne.

This part is the most interesting for me.

Joe

[topendtorque]

for those commentinmg on the satisfaction of entering and exiting into wind, ponder this;

it's the crucial bit at the top where the aircraft is pointing at the downwind direction which is the problem. It may not be travelling very fast wrt TAS if the wind is anything significant. on the ground light wind can often be five six knots more at 300 to 400 feet.

That means 10 to 12 knots less TAS when going back the other way, or perhaps the difference between success and tragedy.

torque turn is a bit different;

one can perform a pleasing straight up and down line if it is entered to the downwind direction to recover into wind.

If it's the other way it's best to remember that you do not wish to be coming down into your own disturbed air which is travelling towards your expected flighpath at the wind speed. I.E. at the top pull a little more collective to travel backwards and a bit and make your descent shallower to keep ahead of that pesky, nasty, pucker making disturbed air.

[Weheka]

"One guy, at a BBQ (and after seveal brews), jumped in his 500 and took off almost directly into a loop (a fully inverted loop) with the same result as Gunter here "

If you are referring to Joe, unlike Gunter, I am sure a loop was never his intention. He lifted off from the back lawn of the house with all lights on, into complete darkness, and facing away from the lights of Taupo. Instead of going straight up (as he thought) then turning and heading for the airport, he just went over the roof of the house backwards and ended up almost inverted in a tennis court. Probably took 5 to 10 secs. Spacial disorientation??

[HeliNZee]

to satisfy my own curiousity, would there of been any collective input at the top of the loop that had an effect on his odd roll out attitude? Would dumping the collective at the top help maintain rotor speed? Maybe DennisK can answer this?

[chopjock]

Would dumping the collective at the top help maintain rotor speed?

Might help to chop your tail boom off :}

[dragman]

I know a guy who proved a C207 could barrel roll. He got grounded for it for a couple of weeks to think about how much of a tit he was, so why is it accepted that it's OK to do it in a 500? We all know it can, probably can in a 22 if you really wanted to.

Dumb waste of a perfectly good helicopter

[DennisK]

Can I offer my pennorth on Gunter's manoeuvre and the control sequence used to produce a 'wing-over' or a loop. But first to answer the handling sequence question.

Apart from one occasion as below, I've only ever performed a full 360 degree vertical' loop at height .. say 1000 feet. I use the following sequence on the Enstrom 280c/FX.

A run in on the selected display axis using 30" MAP to achieve a 90 mph 'gate' speed. (Enstrom) Normal disc-flapback is allowed to bring the nose up for the first 30 degrees in the climb. Speed will be circa 75 mph - when aft cyclic is introduced while maintaining constant collective lever and yaw pedal position. At the 90 degree attitude aft cyclic pressure is tightened. I then look over my head for the horizon reference at which point collective lever is progressively lowered with further aft cyclic but - and it is a big but ... it is essential that a minimum airspeed above translation lift (say 40 mph) is showing on the ASI. Once the airframe has passed the top position, lever should have been been lowered fully to its minimum position (needles to remain joined) as the aircraft speed increases in the descent. Initially firm aft cyclic can be used but as speed once again approaches manoeuvre entry speed ... standard flap back brings the nose back up to the horizon which is assisted by appropriate aft cyclic.

I have flown these manoeuvres with a G meter fitted which has never recorded a zero G reading. Maximum positive G was recorded at 1.75. Also, and before embarking on the manoeuvre, I flew many sorties with an 8" balsa wood extension gaffer-taped to the dorsal fin and with 'tell-tale' markings on both the M/R dampers and blade up-stops.

Going back to the loop sequence, if 'gate' airspeed is lost as the airframe approaches the highest point in the manoeuvre, right yaw pedal can be used to convert to a 270 degree or 360 degree 'wing-over.

For actual displays commencing at around 20 feet, I use what I call a '270 degree' loop running in on the 'B' axis to the crowd and completing the manoeuvre flying parallel to the crowd line. In essence this is a wing over/torque turn. I did perform two full 360 degree 'wings level' loops using an Enstrom F28-2 at the 2004 North Weald Air Fair which was filmed and is now included in my scholarship DVD sequence.

Studying Gunter's unhappy manoeuvre, I feel that he did lose airspeed and translational lift at the top of the sequence and was probably pushing forward on the cyclic in the vertical nose-down position in the descent, but rapidly changing to hard aft cyclic when he realised the increase in speed was costing too much height. I watched him make that mistake at the 2005 Rouen WHC event but on that occasion he did succeed in pulling through safely although only missing the surface by a very few feet.

I suppose I should close by saying ... please don't try this flying without experienced guidance.

Take care all. Dennis Kenyon.

[stringfellow]

dont you just love an informed answer from someone who has been there, done that, and got the t shirt.

that sequence was hard to watch. thanks for a brilliant explanation.

[Earl of Rochester]

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1243624M.jpg

Hughes 300C G-BWAV Shoreham 2nd September 2000

Surely this has to be the 'Prince of Precision' ... Dennis de la Kenyon!

Earl

[Spunk]

... and if that is the stick I see in the picture he's even flying hands-off :eek:

[parasite drag]

That machine is flown from the left seat :ok:

[chopjock]

How do we know the helicopter is upside down and not the camera?

[parasite drag]

Those that know DK will know that he has displayed in G-BWAV at Shoreham and that his routine will put the machine in this attitude....:ok:

[Earl of Rochester]

Or .. you can read the photographer's comments here: Air-Britain : g-bwav (http://www.abpic.co.uk/results.php?q=g-bwav&fields=all&sort=latest&limit=10)

[Earl of Rochester]

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/9/4/1/1765149.jpg

D-HDWM photograped on 26 June 2010 at Grenchen in Switzerland (Helicopter Championships) just days before being destroyed.

+ RIP Gunter

[Shawn Coyle]

chopjock:
We know the attitude because of the sun shining on the bottom of the horizontal stabilizer…

[RVDT]

And the value of that little "300 C" model is now about 5p?

One little old lady owner, never raced rallied or hang on a minute! WTF?

[DennisK]

Intriguing that should be quoted ... G-BWAV IS owned by a 60 plus lady ... Mrs B Maggs. Probably worth more than 5p as its been flying nicely for the last ten years, despite a further thirty-six public displays since the piccy was taken at the Shoreham RAFA show in September 2000.

DRK