Housing

[Unregistered_pilot]

What’s the latest rumour on the housing policy? Will we all lose housing? Get 25 years but sacrifice something or just the normal 15 years with rent after the 15 years?

[Cpt. Underpants]

The AOA has an update for all members.

[GTC58]

Based pilots will lose their HKG housing benefits and will receive a base rate only if they choose to return to HKG, in exchange for all LEP getting the same base rate and all pilots on expat terms presently in HKG keeping their housing benefits plus getting it extended to 25 years.

[Mouwaa]

If you are right GTC, that would be the slow death of proper expat housing. With all new recruits being cadets or DEFOs on a base, means the numbers on expat housing will only die away. We can't let that happen!

Will make it hard for them to attract people to come to Hong Kong me thinks!

We are a HK based airline after all!

[treboryelk]

Another sweet deal that looks after the old and screws the new!

[Dead Head]

Then all the company has to do is open lots of bases. If they close them like Amsterdam, or have problems with labour laws in other bases, bring them all back to HKG later.
That way former based pilots will all live in Tung Chung.
Another divide and conquer strategy, brilliant.

[Mooseflyer]

It won't look so brilliant when a large number of based pilots simply quit instead....

[ASH1111]

Based pilots will lose their HKG housing benefits and will receive a base rate only if they choose to return to HKG, in exchange for all LEP getting the same base rate and all pilots on expat terms presently in HKG keeping their housing benefits plus getting it extended to 25 years.

....are you saying that is what's coming, or that is what's already happened?!:uhoh:

[quadspeed]

Nobody in their right mind would a)come to Hong Kong in the first place or b)return to Hong Kong after a basing without the full housing being offered. Unless, that is, you've been rejected by every decent airline flying where you call home.

But is that who Cathay wants flying their logo around?

[Cahoonies]

Come on guys!

This has been the companies agenda all along, to try to screw housing out of us, little by little. And this is the only reason we can afford stay here!

We cannot allow a new generation of new staff and returning staff to be given lower conditions. Ask any A scaler, this will erode all of our Hong Kong based conditions in the future. We must stop this now!

All hong kong based pilots should get full housing (including all cadets after qualification period)!! For every year they are in HKG. We should be accepting nothing less.

The company just made a 6 billion dollar profit, why the hell would we take a pay drop/condition drop now!! (I'm talking over the whole pilot body, not just your selfish situation!) :ugh:

We the cathay pilots are the only ones that can stop this from happening. The company won't, the joining pilots won't (they will still come, mark my word, albeit now after every other company).

If we allow this C scale....we're idiots!

[TopTup]

Well, there appears to be THOUSANDS of applicants lining up to take jobs with CX and accepting NO HOUSING. They are called CEP's.....and that has worked so well that CX are doing a short course for CPL applicants still wanting the CEP path....and so on, and so on..... Just look at the Fragrant Harbour Wannabe's forum!!

The gate was opened and horse bolted long ago it seems.

And what has or will the AOA do for you guys at CX or those looking to join? More hot air? And what of pilot solidarity? A myth.

Sorry guys, but your past is the greatest indicator of your future. Housing is being bred out of CX. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[cxlinedriver]

The housing allowance is part of the overall package.

I used it to pay for my apartments, then sold them and invested the money elsewhere. If you take housing away you are taking away the ability for many of us to make any money in HKG (the salary is spent on living costs).

Without housing there is no point putting up with the hassles of Hong Kong (poor education for kids, life shortening air pollution, bad food).

Yes, the company does want to keep cutting, but why the hell should we agree to this????

[stillalbatross]

Based pilots will lose their HKG housing benefits and will receive a base rate only if they choose to return to HKG, in exchange for all LEP getting the same base rate and all pilots on expat terms presently in HKG keeping their housing benefits plus getting it extended to 25 years.

Bases are all full so I'm never getting out of HKG and I can now get 25 yrs housing so I'm alright. Where do I sign? What's the downside for me?

[cxlinedriver]

'Bases are all full so I'm never getting out of HKG and I can now get 25 yrs housing so I'm alright. Where do I sign? What's the downside for me?'

Thats right jack, just think about yourself!

[Waterskier]

We're talking about these housing negotiation rumours like they are facts.

I think we are screwing ourselves if we start speculating on how bad the housing negotiations could turn out. Its like we're discussing an upcoming failure before its happened.

Let's let the negotiating committee do their work and not add rumours to their list of problems. Why don't we talk about what we want to see from these negotiations.. not what we're hoping to avoid.


Just my 2 cents

[Brown Nose]

Bollocks to negotiations! they were done before SLS. 25years housing if pilots do SLS, well they did the SLS, just change 15 to 25 and thats it. If they are going to piss about and go back on their word. I'll stick with what we have at the moment, 15 years homeownership and then rent for twice as much at the companies expense!

[rick.shaw]

Agree with waterskier. GTC58 is stirring up the proverbial and talking as if it is fact. And of course he got some bites from people who have taken it as such. Way too much of that goes on in this forum.

[GTC58]

I responded to the first poster what's the latest rumour in regards of housing negotiations. However, I know for a fact that this was offered to the HKAOA. The big question is if the HKAOA thinks redistributing some of the available housing pie to the LEPs in exchange of taking some away from the based pilots is OK and will consider the offer in some form. As we all know the HKAOA just submitted a counter offer.

Also rumour has that the new base rate would be somewhere between HKD30k-40k/month.

Anyways, it looks like we all will know in the not so distant future what's proposed and can vote on it.

Believe what you want, after all it's called a rumour network.

[broadband circuit]

We're talking about these housing negotiation rumours like they are facts.

I think we are screwing ourselves if we start speculating on how bad the housing negotiations could turn out. Its like we're discussing an upcoming failure before its happened.

Let's let the negotiating committee do their work and not add rumours to their list of problems. Why don't we talk about what we want to see from these negotiations.. not what we're hoping to avoid.

Yep, expectation management at its finest.

[willywonker11]

Why are we even negotiating 25 yrs housing.
:ugh:
This was already part of the SLS deal last year, was it not?
I must be missing something here. We should already have it and if not serious questions need to asked as to why.

I am tired of having to constantly come back and fight for conditions that were already promised!

Another court case perhaps?

[2 cents]

Let us not forget that extending home ownership to 25 years is a BENEFIT for the company!! If the scheme ends at 15 years, then we go rent a suitable place at the rental ceiling, which happens to cost the company signifcantly more $$$.

Extending it 25 years is a win/win deal for all. But of course not good enough for CX.

I say we just keep it as is and I'll see you all in the Four Seasons in a few years!!

[TopTup]

As long as there are people at CX like stillalbatross then CX will continue this downward spiral.

And it appears that the like of him/her are in the majority.

The down side for you stillalbatross is the sale of your integrity. But, so long as your nest is feathered.... But you NEVER have the right to complain and seek support when you are screwed.

(Well put cxlinedriver).

[cxlinedriver]

Housing is just part of the overall package. If Tony T wants to apply market forces to salaries, then it can be applied to housing also. I joined on a set of conditions. I am keeping my side of the deal by working when rostered (provided I am fit). Let me keep the housing I agreed to.

The LEPs joined on their conditions. If they don't like them, then let market forces apply and they can either get a better job elsewhere, or the company can pay them more (increase their housing) to retain them.

One group of pilots should not have to pay for an improvement in conditions for another groups of pilots.

Typical cx. Trying to keep it zero (reduced) cost.

[The Wraith]

Don't worry about it! The AOA will negotiate a lesser deal for us so it's ok!:ok:

[EXEZY]

Why should somebody be punished if they go on a base? The simple fact is the cadets should not be entitled to any housing full stop. I bet most only joined the AOA in order to extract this housing deal at the expense of their "mates" in HK.

We're going to have the ludicrous scenario now of somebody coming back to HK for a command earning less money than a fellow captain of a similar vintage, how is that fair? Just let us keep our housing priviledge as it is, the pay rise can wait.

[Guru]

EXEZY,

I didn't join the AOA "in order to extract this housing deal at the expense of their "mates" in HK."

I'd also like to point out to you that this 'offer', if it really exists, came from the Company, not the local pilots.

[EXEZY]

After a certain group complained that it was discriminatory to not be given housing allowance, wasn't it?

[Guru]

EXEZY,

You don't have to call us a 'certain' group. Ours was a protestation or affirmation, not a complaint.

Since you seem to have come to this generalisation of the local pilots quite lightly, and given the fact that I do not know of anyone who intends on "extract(ing) this housing deal at the expense of their "mates" in HK.", the appropriate response to your accusation would be: 'No'.

[bartholomewrose]

I agree with the view that the Cadets should not get housing allowance for the following reasons.

1. They signed their contracts, and so they should have the integrity to stick with them, rather than crying "racist", and asking for a massive increase in their remuneration.

2. The vast majority of them were born, and have family, in Hong Kong. So they already have a place to live. This does not apply to expats.

3. They have had the easiest run in the history of aviation. Full training and board paid for, then straight into a heavy jet. This is the benefit they get.
If they get housing, then the rest of us should be able to bill Cathay for all our training costs.

4. If the AOA pushes this, and Cathay agrees, it sets the terrible precedent that one party can force a massive change in the contracts of one section of the pilot body.
I guarantee that this precedent will be used against us in the future.

5. If the Cadets want to get expat housing, then they are more than welcome to leave their family and friends in Hong Kong, and become expats themselves.
Emirates, Korean, China Airlines etc, are always hiring.

6. The cadets say that its equal pay for equal work. But all industries in the world pay people according to their experience. As does cathay, in our seniority salary scales. The cadets have far inferior experience to even the most low qualified direct entry S/O or F/O, and so their package reflects this.

I am not rejecting the idea of the AOA fighting to improve our conditions, but I think that defending our existing conditions should be a priority.

[Loiter1]

I was thinking the AOA should take this to the company. Only a few minor changes here and there to the contract.
41. CAGE AND CAGE RENTAL ASSISTANCE – EXPATRIATE
OFFICERS
41.1. The Company will provide Cage and Cage Rental Assistance to Expatriate
Officers. This is designed to assist Officers in renting suitable cages in Hong
Kong.
41.2. Cage Rental assistance will be adjusted to reflect market conditions for cages in Hong Kong.
41.3. Cages and Cage Rental Assistance will continue during Annual Leave
41.4. Expatriate Officers will be provided with Cage Rental Assistance in
accordance with Company Policy.
:ok:

[fire wall]

Anyone against housing assistance for cadet entry pilots is myopic in the extreme. Given that recruitment for CEP's is running at approx 120 per year, I ask you to reflect which demographic will be the minority in a mere 10 years from today.
What bargaining power do you expect then to our precious housing allowance.
Short term thinkers with big watches !

[EXEZY]

That's assuming that they emulate the existing cadets by signing a contract knowing full well the terms and conditions and then a few years down the line demand something that was never part of the deal and hence screw their colleagues at the same time! What is it with you people? We join the company and our conditions are gradually eroded whilst you expect everything, contrary to the contracts you signed.

[nitpicker330]

Let me see........LEP, Local Employed Pilot: Lets take a look at that name and what it means shall we. There is no mention of Expat in that name...

Therefore it naturally follows that you don't get Expat allowances.

Certainly not at my expense anyway.

Sorry to be harsh but thems the facts of life.

I and many others are members of the AOA, if my association is able to negotiate any expat allowances for LEP's then fantastic for them, BUT it should never be at my expense.

[fire wall]

Firstly let's get something straight - I am not a LEP / CEP.

Secondly, a fair proportion of CEP's are not Hong Kong locals.

Thirdly, can any of you point me to a statement that housing assistance for CEP's will be at the expense of the scheme currently in place for expatriate officers. No ?

Finally, and I address this one specifically to you nitpicker, I put to you that failing to address this lack of housing assistance for CEP's will, in the long run, will be DIRECTLY at your expense.

Think of this purely as a long term financial transaction and start using your head instead of your heart. I assure you that this is the methodology being used by the upper floors. This is how they have conducted their attack for the past 17 years and this is why they have the runs on the board and we have what ????? A continuing decline !

[geh065]

Thirdly, can any of you point me to a statement that housing assistance for CEP's will be at the expense of the scheme currently in place for expatriate officers. No ?

Exactly. It is the pay rise for ALL which is at the expense of expat housing.

[fire wall]

"It is the pay rise for ALL which is at the expense of expat housing"
says a two bit rumour forum called pprune.
I may be proved wrong here but lets not confuse fact with fiction

[geh065]

"It is the pay rise for ALL which is at the expense of expat housing"
says a two bit rumour forum called pprune.
I may be proved wrong here but lets not confuse fact with fiction

Are you suggesting that there is no pay rise and that the only change will be the base rate for all CEPs in return for the loss of housing in HKG for current based officers? If so then that would have no hope in hell of being voted through. The company and the AOA would know that. I believe if true, this housing deal will be linked to a pay rise for all of us, and enough of a pay rise for the company to believe they have a shot at it being voted through.

[RookieRookie]

I think based on the COS, the company can do whatever they want.
Just check the COS section 41, 42, 46, and 47

I believe both expat and local are entitled to rental and housing assistance as per company policy. ( which can be amended from time to time) =( We are so screwed

[Guru]

No pilot, wherever they come from and however they came to join the company, has advocated a degradation of anyone's contract in order to fund an increase to the local pilots' remuneration.

Whether or not someone thinks the gap between the expat package and local package should be reduced is a completely separate issue from where one thinks that money should come from.

Everyone's free to express their opinions on each of those points, but to reason your objection by baselessly accusing the locals of intending to take money from other pilots is wrong.

[fire wall]

bartholomewrose,
you are big on assumptions yet small on fact

assumption # 1
Firstly, even if cathay gives the cadets housing, they will not do it under the same terms as us.

Assumption # 2
If the cadets get housing, it will be at a lower rate than the expat package. If it wasn't then all the managers would be sacked by Swire.
DOES ANY OF THE ABOVE HAVE ANY FOUNDATION IN FACT OR JUST RANDOM MUSINGS ?

[EXEZY]

Do you agree though that base pilots are going to lose out when they return to HK? So where do you think their money is going, i'll give you a clue...

[goathead]

until we as members get rid of the AOA committee or at least most of them and turn it into a exec committee without so many different agendas secret or not and one term wonders ( and a few idiots as well ) it's just going to keep happening like history repeating itself over and over and over and over again..... seriously when will we ALL wake up and realise that committees just don't work ...never have never will.

[RookieRookie]

I know where the money will go to; to the directors of CX and Swire

[Guru]

EXEZY,

What I have been trying to get through to you is that this 'deal' everyone is talking about is just a rumour, why are you talking about it and getting cheesed off about it as if it has already become reality? Furthermore, even if there is such a proposal, it would have been made by the Company, not the local pilots or any pilots for that matter. Do not speak as though the locals proposed it and have somehow worked to realise it.

If it was part of the Company's calculation to induce in-fighting and animosity amongst the pilot ranks, you would be the ultimate demonstration of their success.

[s11max]

I thought housing was one of those sacred cows that never gets f#cked with - even if you take a base a for a number of years.

I am hoping/expecting that our boys (girls?) on the negotiating team keep this cow alive and do not give in on this one. One day I will come back to HKG and buy another apartment. Isn't that one of the big attractions to CX in the first place?

Long Time Reader Second Time Writer

[Hydrolix]

1. If you are currently on a base and you choose to come to Hong Kong at your own behest, then you should not be entitled to housing, as they are not enticing you to come to Hong Kong and do not need you in Hong Kong. Just as if a CEP chooses to take a base, they are not entitled to Expat allowances in that base. If they are sent there at the behest of the company then they should be entitled to Expat allowances on that base.

2. If you are needed in Hong Kong by the company i.e. for Command you should be entitled to full Expat housing allowances.

3. Remember that after your 25 year housing deal is up, you go onto the base rate (ie. 24K/month) not full expat rental assistance.

I think that if you choose to come to Hong Kong after being on a base then you should come back as a local, just as if a CEP chooses to go on a base outside of Hong Kong they should NOT be given housing allowance. Does this seem fair and reasonable to all.

It seems many want to have their cake and eat it too...:rolleyes:

[sony]

I do not agree with Hydrolix's post at all. There should be no change to the housing agreement other than to extend it to 25 years, and ideally housing for all in HKG including CEP's.

[711]

Hydrolix, you are so simplistic it kills me.

What if you started on a base and never had the CHANCE to get to Hong Kong?
What if the flexibility to change bases was actually the reason to join CX ? Why do you want to give that possibility away ? Why ????

Just because you apparently don't see a necessity for yourself to use that option you spread the word to destroy it for others.

You are a evil , selfish and bitter person. I feel nothing but contempt for you.:yuk:

[Hydrolix]

Clearly struck a nerve there.

The argument has always been that an Expat gets expat allowances because they must be enticed to live away from their base area.

If you joined directly on a base then you are most likely to be a DEFO and thus have opened up a whole new can of worms. If you are a DEFO who joined on a base I believe that is where you should stay unless the company requires you to be in Hong Kong.

If flexibility to change bases was a reason for joining CX then I can see that this may be an issue but its not fair to CEP's that do not get a housing allowance wherever they are based simply becuase you want to change yours at the drop of a hat.

Sometimes decisions must be made and the consequences that are rendered must be accepted.

I don't believe CEP's should get housing in Hong Kong, but if they choose to take a base outside of Hong Kong then they should get a housing allowance wherever they choose to base themselves. Do we think this is fair?:=

[fly123456]

Hydrolix, this is completely different!

Although I wish cadets could receive housing in Hong-Kong (specially the new "expats cadets");
I joined Cathay because they were offering me the possibility to move to Hong-Kong with Housing allowances.
Cadets joined Cathay because Cathay was offering them free training.

If Cathay was not offering housing, or the possibility to move to HK, I would have joined LH, AF, BA or even CV.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with changing the rules of the game, in the middle of the game!

I'm perfectly ok to stick with my contract and with what has been offered when I joined. And if we are asking for a pay rise, this is merely in order not to lose any salary because of inflation / new taxes rules.

[freightdoggiedog]

I strongly feel that most pilots, too myopic or selfish to see past their own little patch of garden, fail to see one big truth: what is apparently only good for another group of pilots is often good for ALL OF US in the long run. If EK give their pilots a big payrise, in the long run this is good for CX pilots too, as CX will eventually have to match or exceed their offer in order to attract quality candidates, SQ then has to follow suit etc.

Without moving out of CX, getting THE FULL housing package (albeit after a qualifying period) for LEP/CEPs (and KEEPING IT for based guys returning to HK for ANY reason) is a GOOD thing for all of us. Firstly because for once we will be on the offensive with the airline with respect to T&Cs, as opposed to being on the defensive as we usually are (plus it is a winnable battle, as for once HK media/public opinion would probably back us).

Secondly because it will not allow CX to divide and conquer us in the future as they have done time and again: " don't worry guys we won't touch YOUR housing, we'll just screw all new joiners/based guys, but you'll be alright Jack". Of course as time goes by, CX only hires the new cheaper "local terms" pilots and before you know it Jack is in the minority: "sorry Jack but no payrise for you, the younger guys are so much cheaper..." and "sorry Jack but the only way we can afford to give you a payrise too is if you give up your housing..." and furthermore, "hey you based guys, sorry but we're closing all the bases and moving you all back to HK, too complicated to have all these bases, and anyway it will cost us the same to have you here in HK now that we got rid of housing..."

Whether it is FAIR for CEP/LEPs to have housing is quite beyond the point. The point is improving conditions for some of our fellow pilots so that maybe this time Jill gets a better contract, but next time it will be Jack's turn (as opposed to screwing Jill this time, because guess what: next time it will be Jack's turn).

The wise response is not, "oh hey, that's not fair: in this case I should get housing on my base too", but rather, "hmm, I think I'll support this: once we obtain it, the next step could be getting some sort of housing allowance for based guys as well".

In short, anytime anything can be gained for any part of our pilot body, I will support it, even if it is not immediately beneficial to me. The childish "if I can't have it then I don't want him to have it either" mantra, quite aside from being childish, DOESN'T WORK.

Rant over.

[Hydrolix]

Probably the most sensible and possibly the best post on the subject being discussed at the moment. A better deal for all is what we should be negotiating.:ok:

:D:D:D

[404 Titan]

Hydrolix
A better deal for all is what we should be negotiating.
Then why did you state:
If you are currently on a base and you choose to come to Hong Kong at your own behest, then you should not be entitled to housing, as they are not enticing you to come to Hong Kong and do not need you in Hong Kong.
This is quite definitely a deterioration to our COS.

[Waterskier]

From the latest AOA newsletter...

Rumours that the HKAOA is planning to negotiate to trade pay rises for housing, or vice versa, have no basis in fact.

[GTC58]

No one is saying that. The company wants to change expat benefits of based pilots returning to HKG to a base rate for extending the present housing benefits to 25 years (for expat pilots already in HKG) and giving LEP's a base rate housing benefit.

[s11max]

Giving up the RIGHT to the full HK housing allowance when most pilots have that RIGHT would, quite literally, be insane. There are many pilots who have set themselves up nicely after a few years in HK using the home owner system.

Before we went on a base, we sold our apartment for a decent profit which then served as the deposit on our current house. When the kids are out of the "danger zone" for the health-related issues that precipitated our departure in the first place, we will return to HKG - as is our RIGHT.

Speaking of RIGHTS, I think the AOA/HKAOA/AOA Canada (or maybe the PFHK - Pilots Front of HK) should also fight for my RIGHT to have babies, even if I don't actually have a womb.

[rick.shaw]

GTC

The company can want all they like, but when the housing increase to 25 years was put forward last year aloing with the SLS package, I distinctly remember no pre conditions or trade-off's. It was simple improvement for BOTH parties and could have been signed off in 2 minutes if the will was genuinely there.

As far as I'm concerned, keep it at 15 years and be done with it. All this crap is happily spread by management or management wannabe's(the 'in the know' types who just love being that) and ends up being of huge benefit to management in the form of expectation management and ad-hoc negotiations.

[GTC58]

Rick.Shaw

Expectation management has nothing to do with it. It seems like the HKAOA GC is happy to continue lowering the bar for us as they still seem to be paralyzed from the 49er events instead of listening to their members.

As for the housing agreement it is already expired and the company technically can do as they want, or what they think they can get away with.

I believe this year is the turning point. If the HKAOA, or better the GC and negotiating teams, are not able to stand their ground and improve our conditions things will just get worse for the coming years. Maybe they should ask the FAU for some tips.

CX is making a lot of money at the moment, however it could be way more. Whoever is in charge of yield management has no clue what they are doing. Who in their right mind is running flights at 100%+ load factors. It just shows that there is not enough capacity in the market and fares could be easily raised, running the airline at lower load factors in return improving operations and generating higher yield and an overall better bottom line.
We are operating in a strong market environment and instead of increasing fares, hence increasing revenue, CX is still in the recession mode trying to reduce expenses at all cost.

[fly123456]

I think the 25 years deal has more to see with (some of) us signing Cos08 than signing for SLS.

We work 10 extra years, we should get 10 extra years of housing. Quite simple really...

[sisyphos]

Hydrolix,

you are a disgrace.

The thought of having to sit next to you makes me sick.

[Flap10]

sisyphos,

The way you use emotion over reason I actually would hate to be sitting next to you during an emergency.

Hydrolix is right! Lets at least be consistent with our argument over why LEPs don't get housing. We say that it is not a discrimination issue because they had to entice us to Hong Kong with an expat package. Fair enough, but then if you choose to return to Hong Kong on your own will, why should you get housing assistance over and above what an LEP receives?? If that is the case every LEP who chooses to take a base should get full housing. If they don't then it most certainly becomes a discrimination issue.

The same people that are most vocal about this issue are probably the same people that jumped on CoS08, guess what that was yet another erosion of our conditions, but that didn't stop any of you from signing over!!!

Also, wake up to reality, there is good reason why these are called negotiations and not an ultimatum to the company. You are going to give up something to gain another, that is a fact! You can bang your fist on the desk all you want, but unless the majority is prepared to take industrial action you should concede to the fact that you have no choice but to bargain.

[404 Titan]

Flap10
You are going to give up something to gain another, that is a fact!
More like you want me to accept a lower conditions of service so that cadets can get housing? I don’t think so. You and Hydrolix are two faced. On one hand you tell us the AOA will only sell us down the creek but on the other hand you are prepared to peddle and accept a reduced set of conditions of service in our housing. Pontificating about the logic or fairness of our housing policy is irrelevant. That is the housing policy I and others have agreed to when we came here and I will not accept anything less. I personally agree that there should be housing for cadets but it will not be at my or any other expat’s expense.

[Flap10]

404 Titan

If I am being two faced then you are being a big hypocrite.

but it will not be at my or any other expat’s expense.

Lets face it you don't give a rat's ass about anyone but yourself. This has nothing to do about what is fair and what is not and all about how it will personally affect you. A little advice, don't talk too big, we both know what you will do when judgement day comes.

Just bear in mind that the only thing that is contractual about housing is that you should received some sort of assistance. The amount that they pay is NOT contractual. They do not need your consent to reduce the amount.

[Brown Nose]

Why would you want to decrease one of your colleagues COS?

Even if he is getting something you are not. I'm not on 'A' scale, but I certainly don't want to see their contract decreased anymore. I will however try to increase mine.

Is it fair that some get 'A' scale and some get housing and some don't, yes, it is the contract they agreed to sign.

[Flap10]

Brown Nose

I am not posting my views because I want to decrease the conditions of my colleagues. FYI I am not an LEP and I am certainly not the one that signed over CoS08 and significantly reduced the time to upgrade of my junior colleagues.

The argument that is being used to defend why an expat receives housing over an LEP is completely flawed and is hypocritical. I have argued in previous threads and support your views that an LEP can't complain about expat benefits when he/she accepted the terms of their contract. I agree!

However, to say hat we should still receive full expat benefits over an LEP when we voluntarily return to Hong Kong after taking a permanent base is wrong and is discriminatory against the LEPs. If you weren't enticed to return to Hong Kong why should any of us expect full expat benefits??

The company has no choice but to change the terms to avoid a discriminatory lawsuit. Unless it is forced to pay full expat benefits to everyone in Hong Kong, but I trust my colleagues as much as I trust management when it comes to taking industrial action.

[404 Titan]

Flap10

You are so myopic it defies belief. Your rants border on the nonsense that is being spread by the third floor. I couldn’t give a flying f**k whether an expat coming back to Hong Kong voluntarily and getting full housing is illogical to you. That is the agreement we have with the company and as far as I'm concerned it is not negotiable.

As I have said before I have no problem with cadets getting housing but it will not be at my expense. If you don’t like that, tough. If you can’t see that the company is trying to split the pilot body down expat/lep lines by spreading this nonsensical rumoured proposal then there is no hope for us. We should be striving for full expat terms for cadets, rather than expecting expats to accept lower conditions of service. Once you give something away you will never get it back. Today it is housing. Next they’ll be wanting to take away our FOC's. In industrial negotiations you should never give anything away. By doing so you are committing industrial suicide.

Regarding the housing agreement, it is a signed agreement (contract) between the company and the AOA over, I believe, a two to four year period. Only at the end of that agreement can the company change how housing payments are calculated. There isn’t many agreements more sensitive than housing that would focus the pilot body if the company decided to scr*w us over. The last AOA vote when the company proposed significant changes for new joiners is testament to how the majority of the pilot body feels about housing.

[Harbour Dweller]

Flap10,

However, to say that we should still receive full expat benefits over an LEP when we voluntarily return to Hong Kong after taking a permanent base is wrong and is discriminatory. If you weren't enticed to return to Hong Kong why should any of us expect full expat benefits??

No it's not.

It is a condition of the COS signed when expats joined CX.

I believe if we are to protect our conditions as a pilot body we need to raise everyones (Expats, LEP's, iCadets) entitlements, not reduce them.

[Flap10]

404 Titan,


As I have said before I have no problem with cadets getting housing but it will not be at my expense.



If you can’t see that the company is trying to split the pilot body down expat/lep lines by spreading this nonsensical rumoured proposal then there is no hope for us.


LMAO :D:D:D Trust me you are doing a much better job at splitting the pilot body than management, and if you can't see that then maybe the one with myopia is yourself. Regardless, thanks for the laugh!


We should be striving for full expat terms for cadets, rather than expecting expats to accept lower conditions of service


Great at least we agree on one thing!!! However, how far will you go to achieve the above, will you strike over it, will you put your job on the line over it??


as far as I'm concerned it is not negotiable.


Problem is I've been here long enough to know nonsense being spread by people pretending they are militant but buckling and abandoning their mates on the 11th hour.

Harbour,


I believe if we are to protect our conditions as a pilot body we need to raise everyones (Expats, LEP's, iCadets) entitlements, not reduce them.


Not once have I said that I would prefer seeing a reduction in CoS over an improvement to all. But lets be realistic, the majority of the pilot body abandoned 51 pilots after they were unfairly dismissed. What makes you think they are going to fight for LEP/Cadets.

As I've said before, the company CANNOT keep the current terms because IT IS discriminatory, just like forcing individuals to retire at 55 was discriminatory. Hence the CoS08 offer. The company beat any potential lawsuit with it eventhough it was a reduction in conditions (A scales being reduced to B scales, NO BPP), but how many declined????

[404 Titan]

Flap10

I’ll leave you to think what you will about me and how big my balls may be but it is obvious to most here you’re a raving idiot. I’ve flown with more cadets than I can count over the last few months and not one of them wants or sees the benefit in getting housing at the expense of expats T&C’s. Infact they all see it as divisive. It’s your argument that is divisive, not mine or anyone else that can see what the company is trying to do. You have quite clearly fallen for the company’s tactics hook line and sinker. :ugh:

[Flap10]

I’ll leave you to think what you will about me and how big my balls


Since you are asking I suspect the size of a walnut!

[EXEZY]

Flap 10, people don't voluntarily return to Hong Kong, 99.9% only come back when their command is up for grabs; like 404 Titan has tried to hammer home to you before. If you use your flawed logic, then nobody should recieve housing allowance because we all chose voluntarily to move to Hong Kong, just like you VOLUNTARILY, because I'm sure you're a cadet, signed a contract without any housing assistance.

[nitpicker330]

Some people here ( Insert Flap10 ) just can't seem to see the Wood for the Trees.

There is no way in hell me or anyone else in this Company should be coerced into giving up anything so as to give to another. By all means fight for Housing for LEP's, fight for whatever you deserve but not at anothers expense.
Classic divide and conquer tactics by Management.

As others have said, never give anything away........it only leads to worse.

[fly123456]

Hey, if LEP want housing, they should be the ones leading the industrial action. I probably won't fight myself for their housing.
But you can be sure I will go on strike if any of them is fired due to taking industrial action.
And that's what the primary role of the AOA must be: defend anybody against an unfair dismissal.

[Brown Nose]

Yep I'll go on strike for you to get housing........as long as you prove yourself first and go on strike for me to get a travel allowance. I would surely love that even though it was not in the contract I signed.

All for increasing someones contract. Just gives me the sh!ts when one of our own colleagues wants to take away something from someone else who already has it.

[Brown Nose]

oh, and by the way, aren't walnuts one of the larger of the common nuts? Certainly bigger than anything served on a CX a/c

[fly123456]

Here's the master plan:

We don't touch housing.
LEP's go to court, win their case, and get full housing.

Everybody's happy! (except management)

[Loiter1]

I agree with Fly123456. The company is eager to negotiate with us on housing now to avoid a discrimination court case they know they would lose later on. We need to see the big picture here guys. How much success have we had bargaining with CX: None! How much success in the courts: a lot more! Lets stick with a winning plan and take the legal avenue. That way the expats keep their housing and the LEPs get more than some token base rate to keep them quiet.

[Private Pile]

I have a better idea in general...

Base salaries should reflect the cost of living at that base. HKG is the most expensive base in CX and therefore the salary should be proportional. So:

- Scrap Housing Allowance and just increase all HKG salaries by 30-60k HKD according to rank. ie SO 30k, JFO 40k, etc, etc.
- Recruit Cadets onto a Junior Aircrew List with fixed promotion times... 2 years SO, 2 years JFO, then move onto a Senior Aircrew List as FO where DEFO's join. Adjust SO/JFO scales according to the payback requirement for Adelaide.
- Recruit only cadets onto SO rank, all other direct entry recruitment as FO only whilst banning DEC recruitment!!!
- Remove the ridiculous 4 year base freeze and open up HKG to DEFO's...

My DFO promotion is no doubt just around the corner... :}

[stillalbatross]

We already agreed to the 24K housing.

Didn't the AOA agree a few years back that year 5 F/O pay and 24K housing was more than enough compensation for a command on the freighter in Hong Kong. Deal of the century apparently, so since we have already decided that it's more than enough what is the problem with bringing in 24K for housing across the board now and levelling pax command pay at freighter level. No-one really needs the extra pay on the pax fleet package, I agree with the AOA we've already had expats on 24K in Hong Kong for years and it is more than adequate.

It's the same aircraft after all (freighter or pax), it is apparently more than enough money and importantly we'd be helping the company out.

[treboryelk]

surely not another whinge from those who dived into the left hand seat of a freighter and dont like it anymore!

early freighter commands got just what they signed up for, HTFU and suck it up.

[Rice power]

treboryelk, you are close to the mark however the latest round of skullduggery has a number of remaining ASL Captains visiting the new DFO in a push to remove restrictive practices of flying freighters only, stating that they are trained to the same standards so why cant they fly the pax a/c.
They had their chance to join the common seniority list in 2000 and now they want to revisit their options again some 10 years later.
Pax commands out of seniority? These self serving individuals will stop at nothing to feather their own nest at the expense of others.

[cxlinedriver]

I hope LEPs do get a housing allowance. I will then expect to receive a lump sum payment for my initial training costs. I will then seek another payment for my experience built over the 5000 hours of flying in 22 different types with 3 different operators.

Most LEPs are too inexperienced, even after 10 years in CX to know just how inexperienced they are.

The only times in CX that I have been seriously concerned for my safety has been when a LEP Capt has been in the cockpit with me.

I am all for an improvement in anyones COS, but LEPs are not the equal of Direct Entry pilots. Never will be.

[climbout]

....The only times in CX that I have been seriously concerned for my safety has been when a LEP Capt has been in the cockpit with me...:-), please send me a short notice, when you are in the cockpit again to rebook ,review my travel plans

[cxhk]

I hope LEPs do get a housing allowance. I will then expect to receive a lump sum payment for my initial training costs. I will then seek another payment for my experience built over the 5000 hours of flying in 22 different types with 3 different operators.

Most LEPs are too inexperienced, even after 10 years in CX to know just how inexperienced they are.

The only times in CX that I have been seriously concerned for my safety has been when a LEP Capt has been in the cockpit with me.

I am all for an improvement in anyones COS, but LEPs are not the equal of Direct Entry pilots. Never will be.Not another one of those, Direct Entry = better than LEP debate. Do we need to step on the LEP to make ourselves feels more superior? NO, I don't think so because we are neither superior nor inferior to each other. We are all pilots. I have flew with many Direct Entry Pilot who are not as good as LEP pilot, even though they are supposed to be more experience with more hours under their belt. Quite a few of the DEFO are just horrific, you sometimes wonder how did the training department release them onto the line. At the end of the day, there will always be good pilots and bad pilots regardless of experience or background. Making a comment like yours just makes yourself look like an A**H####. Just my two cents.

[Kurtis Chukle Willis]

I can't agree with you, anyhow that sounds more like a rant than anything else. In my 777 days I did a number of trips with local guys and even tho the operation was conservative, I would not have thought twice about putting my wife and kids on. These guys deserved their command fair and square. Having been on the 400 now and seen the standard of some of our early/direct/Dragon air commands........holy sh1t !!! Not ever would my family fly with these guys. Just look at the fdap reports.. Cathay is closer than they have ever been in my time to having a hull loss, with these jokers at the helm. Management like to bleet on that they have the same standard for all, but those of us on the fleet know the truth and I am fairly confident the fleet office does too. Early/direct/Dragon Captains on the pax fleet........excuse me while I throw up in my mouth! :yuk:

[LongTimeInCX]

CXhk wrote:
We are all pilots. Reckon you've been watching too much MontyPython


I have flew with many Direct Entry Pilot....
Guess you're a LEP then? Can't guess what gave it away

Likelihood remains, if the company take the stance there is only so much money in the mud-hut fund, by giving some of it to the LEP faction, there is every chance it will be to the detriment of the expat mud-hut pot of money.
Net result is LEP's get something they were not entitled to, and the expats see yet another degradation to their T&C's.

But with regard to abilities, I have flown with a number of very good LEP's, admittedly on normal ops and no dramas to deal with. I have also flown with a few DEFO who are by their limited exposure to cx occasionally a little shakey even in their normal ops. Read into that what you will.

[seventy-seven]

Cathay pilots dont quit period!

[Air Profit]

latest AOA newsletter. Very ominous comment in regards housing. Better be ready to fight on this issue...otherwise all is lost.

[Bob Hawke]

If there is any reason for unity, this is it. Be ready for it! Or lose it!

[dbboy]

I think the time is right to stop negotiating over the promised 25 year housing, I can easily live with my current contract for 14 years and 11 months in house purchase scheme, then move to max rental possible (having sold or rented my pad out). Wouldn't this make everyone happy??
Lets leave housing as it is, and concentrate on pay, no side tracking and nothing ruled out in response to negotiatins in bad faith.

[Sqwak7700]

Anybody that still takes Cathay's word as promise is a friggin' idiot and deserves the consequences of them braking that promise. When will this membership ever learn?

And if you are not in contract compliance you deserve it even more. :ugh:

[dbboy]

Dear Dan Buster, I agree completely with you, my point in a round-about way, was to suggest that the crrect response to the company's inaction should be for each and everyone of us to extract the maximum cash from them until they see sense. It would be, after all, be cheaper to have us all purchasing homes, than renting at the max. So I say no more negaotiations over something already promised, and in return I promise to make it as expensive as possible until I have my housing unconditionally extended to the agreed 25 years.

[s11max]

COME ON!!

Surely, for the love of god, there should be no ambiguity, no side-tracking, no negotiating.......the full HK housing should remain available to all Cathay Pacific passenger pilots who are based in HK, or will be in the future.

HK housing allowance has, and always will be, the way HK-based guys actually make money. Breathing that stinking air, being exposed to the mainland bacterial/viral filth that makes it way to HK, paying $38 for four imported tomatoes and $39 for a safe litre of milk, is only worth it if families get HK$55K (or more) per month to pay the mortgage.

Of all the issues that should be the line in the sand, this is the one. The guys that agreed to the $24K made the deal until their time comes to hold a passenger seniority regardless of rank, not forever.

Let's get f#cking real....

[Waterskier]

AOA Update 8/17/10
Rumours that the HKAOA is planning to negotiate to trade pay rises for housing, or vice versa, have no basis in fact.


AOA Update 8/31/10
The talks on Housing also continue. Members can expect to receive a detailed update in the next few days. Whilst our talks specifically cover the issues surrounding housing, it has become very clear that the Company’s view of the future Cathay Pacific career is significantly different to ours. There is a real danger that the goalposts could be moving - significantly.



I guess things have changed in the last two weeks and the rumour mill wasn't so wrong. Or management floated the rumours on PPrune before presenting them to the AOA.

[Bob Hawke]

There can be NO negotiation on housing other than what they agreed to already.

This is not part of the pay negotiations! It's a separate issue and at no time should the AOA allow this to be part of those negotiations.

[40Deg STH]

Bob Hawke, I agree completely.

AOA needs to be careful here and not give away conditions of the majority and the main draw card for us for a minority who agreed to their conditions on joining.
If LEP's can get some improvement, well good on them, but NOT to the loss of expats, who were only encouraged here with incentive.

If expat housing goes, I would certainly strike!!! Leave it to the locals to hold it together.
I enjoy HK and the culture, but I'm only here for ONE reason. And I mean that respectfully to HKers.

NO HOUSING-----------No work!!!

[EXEZY]

It's all about short term gain for the greedy managers and f#ck sustainability. It's obvious now that they don't see this place as a viable career and now they're just taking the piss out of us. They don't care, they'll always find some monkey of the street willing to take our place for peanuts.
I'm hacked off with this culture, not just in aviation, the drive to the bottom in search of profits. The few at the top reap all the benefits, looting all and sundry beneath them.

[Bob Hawke]

When will enough be enough, for those greedy pigs with their heads in the trough? This is so much like Animal Farm, I can hardly believe it!

TO THE MANAGERS!

Recognise this. We are also stakeholders in the Company and we are equally important in its day to day operations, even more-so - (try working without us!) and it's our every desire to see the company thrive and grow, but YOU must recognise our contribution and reward us accordingly.

Continual eroding of conditions is going to bring about extreme dissatisfaction and I can assure that you only have to sit in the cockpit and listen day in and day out, about the dramas, pressures, missed opportunities, co-ersion, and other tactics applied by the company that will manifest itself in some extremely negative fashion, either industrially or operationally. You are bringing this about, and YOU know that one of the criticisms from a recent auditing event mentioned & highlighted this. Read the signals carefully.

CX is one of the most pre-eminent airlines in the world and I would say that in a large part you have the pilots to thank. Get your heads out of your posteriors and recognise this!

Now where was I; oh yes, reviewing cage growth opportunities.
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2231/gd4271207epa01087547a00xq6.jpg

[airplaneridesrfun]

Increase the base rate do the current variable rate, and get rid of any time limit (15 or 25 years). Seems simple enough.

[EXEZY]

I see another baffling AOA newsletter has been released. Honestly I think the company and this travesty of an organisation are in cahoots. Would the company have latched on to the Racial Descrimination ordinance if the AOA hadn't sighted it as an issue in the trying to win housing for current CEPS's? I hardly think so.
This whole RDO thing is just a smokescreen in order to employ future pilots on reduced terms and they have the audacity to introduce it in connection with our efforts to increase housing assistance to 25 years, which had already been promised with no strings attached. How can they talk of racism, when now all future employs are being discriminated against based upon date of joining. What's next, a new ordinance issued called the Inferior Contract Discrimination Ordinance IDO for short? The whole thing is a joke, it's like watching Monty Phython.

[Private Pile]

Whatever you think of the AOA, it remains our only negotiating body and seems to be serving it's purpose in trying to protect our T&C's whilst bargaining with a company hell bent on destroying them. Having read the AOA update I'm pleased to see them standing up for what's right and hope that with strength in numbers we can come out of these discussions with our a-holes intact...

[711]

guys, don't shoot the messenger. The AOA is doing its best.

[Fenwicksgirl]

EXEZY. You for real. CX would not have noticed RDO if it wasn't for the AOA??? Rest assured CX lobbyist were there with Legco members trying to water down the RDO at the inception. All major employers in HKG were put on notice well before the introduction of RDO.
So maybe AOA were trying their best to keep up with the process and trying to pre empt what CX were going to do.
You then explain how CX are going to use the RDO to reduce terms of flight crew etc, isn't that exactly what the AOA are trying to prevent!!!
Hardly in cahoots!!

[EXEZY]

My point was it was the AOA that used the RDO initially in order to win housing for the cadets. Housing which was never rightly there's anyway, racism or no racism.
This has now opened a can of worms which has now affected those wanting to return to Hong Kong from a base. I agree the company would interporate the RDO for new joiners in a way that suits them regardless of the AOA.

[404 Titan]

The last time I looked a large number of local cadets aren’t even Chinese so it is legally debatable whether the RDO even applies in this housing debate in the first place. As I said to a cadet earlier this year, the company doesn’t pay you a housing allowance not because of your race but because of your recruitment stream. For the RDO to be applicable, the companies denial of housing must be based purely on race which clearly isn’t the case otherwise there wouldn’t be local cadets of a European background who also don’t get housing.

[Starting Blocks]

When will enough be enough, for those greedy pigs with their heads in the trough? This is so much like Animal Farm, I can hardly believe it!

TO THE MANAGERS!

Recognise this. We are also stakeholders in the Company and we are equally important in its day to day operations, even more-so - (try working without us!) and it's our every desire to see the company thrive and grow, but YOU must recognise our contribution and reward us accordingly.

Continual eroding of conditions is going to bring about extreme dissatisfaction and I can assure that you only have to sit in the cockpit and listen day in and day out, about the dramas, pressures, missed opportunities, co-ersion, and other tactics applied by the company that will manifest itself in some extremely negative fashion, either industrially or operationally. You are bringing this about, and YOU know that one of the criticisms from a recent auditing event mentioned & highlighted this. Read the signals carefully.

CX is one of the most pre-eminent airlines in the world and I would say that in a large part you have the pilots to thank. Get your heads out of your posteriors and recognise this!

Now where was I; oh yes, reviewing cage growth opportunities.
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2231/gd4271207epa01087547a00xq6.jpg

Just for once, put your greed to one side and think before posting. Sticking photos here of these poor guys who live in cages is the height of bad taste, although this is probably a concept that you have trouble understanding. Get this into your thick head once and for all - whatever your working conditions, you are luckier than most people will ever be, so don't come here whining about what's wrong with your pathetic life.

Your inflated sense of your own importance is grotesque - like it or not, you are expendable, if there are equally well qualified people willing to do your job as well as you do for less money, then you are out on your ear. Just be grateful you have a job.

These poor guys living in cages at least know what they are worth, unlike you. You disgust me.

[AcarsII]

As usual the CX pilots are arguing with each other…… For god’s sake, perhaps it’s time we are united!! Some CX pilots STILL don’t get the fact that the AOA is the only body that can negotiate with our management!!

In order to improve our terms and conditions, I strongly believe we can ONLY achieve something by being united and stop arguing with each other!

If we didn’t have the AOA who is going to negotiate Inflation correction, rosters practices, flight time limitations and housing? Indeed NOBODY.

Our management must love reading the Cathay stuff on PPRUNE.

United we stand, divided we fall.

[404 Titan]

AcarsII

Please don’t misconstrue my comments as an attack on the AOA or the right of cadets to have some form of housing assistance. I’ve been a member of the AOA since I joined CX in 2000. That is not to say that I agree with all their strategies though. The AOA were obliged to help the cadets with their housing claim. That I don’t have a problem with. The cadets though were claiming CX was racially discriminating against them. Unfortunately unless the AOA used the RDO as a legal weapon against CX there really wasn’t a case against them in the first place. It isn’t discriminatory even in places like Australia to have different remuneration packages based on your recruitment stream. The company, after smelling blood have turned that argument around to potentially force degraded COS on a large number of existing DE pilots and all new pilots irrespective of there recruitment stream. This certainly wasn’t the intended outcome we wanted but one I am sure the company thought through very carefully. Dealing with the company is like playing chess. You must anticipate your opponents move and be ready to outflank them. This requires always being three or four steps ahead of them though, something we a very bad at.