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magicbox
5th Aug 2010, 10:09
Apparently, Jetstar has an influx of new casual cabin crew with minimal training & experience.

Combine this with cadets, it looks like the captains at Jetstar will be running the show single handed.

Are we going to see casual pilots at Jetstar too? :}

Jethro Gibbs
5th Aug 2010, 11:32
and they don,t work for jetstar it through a labour hire company :ugh:

Altara - Aviation Consulting - Flight Training - Aviation Auditing (http://altara.aero/)

puff
6th Aug 2010, 07:12
Magicbox you have done it now given JQ the new idea - casual pilots - pay for your own endorsement - then they give you a guarantee of 10 hours a week say - hourly rate. Everyone can sit out at the airport in case anyone goes sick !

Don't laugh they do it in other industrys - get casuals in and give them minimal work and they are all super keen to work - easy to find people falling over themselves looking to work when the 'unreliable full time' staff all go sick when they are actually unwell.

Heard some stories about some of the MAM QF casuals flying when grossly unwell simply because they couldn't afford not to do the flight to put food on their table - sure they except it but a lot of people out there want to be FAs as bad as some people want to be pilots - hence why the FAs are getting poked in the posterior with a blunt stick as well !

Wideglider
6th Aug 2010, 07:34
Jeezzzzzzz Puff, Magic might have put out an idea but your telling everyone how to go about it! := Hopefully the cost of competency checks and currency, amongst other things, should/could keep this lunacy at bay! :}
But!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :hmm:
Lets be careful out there!
Wide1.

puff
6th Aug 2010, 08:11
I'm sure there are greater minds out there wideglider working out ways to screw people over than I :) They're called consultants !

Wideglider
6th Aug 2010, 08:33
Alas Puff, I'm sure you are right! :sad:
And don't get me started on Consultant's :mad:

LeadSled
6th Aug 2010, 08:59
Folks,
Nothing new under the sun!!

Many moons ago, I worked for a UK mob, who had about 30:40:30 permanent staff:contractors (me): casuals ----- this included Captains, F/Os and E/O, the fleet was a mixture of B707, both JT-4 straight pipe, and various JT3B variants.

Only two out of eight had a common cockpit, which made it a trifle interesting at times, at least at OneStar it is going to be one type.

Maybe you could even get the FOIs and "sick" pilots from other airlines moonlighting, as we used to in UK.

Tootle pip!!

Jack Ranga
6th Aug 2010, 14:31
Do any of you reckon that some may WANT casual work? Including pilots.

Gas Bags
6th Aug 2010, 21:14
JR,

You are indeed on the money there. Quite a lot of people are in a position where casual/part time employment is exactly what suits them.

I believe this is nothing new in the Australian aviation industry and has been a standard part of employment in same for decades.

GB

genex
7th Aug 2010, 03:57
The rot has indeed set in. For some time now Qantas has had some pilots only doing a few sectors a month. Must be very disheartening. It's no way to treat professionals is it?

zed583
7th Aug 2010, 04:44
Apparently at least two casual flight attendants have been stood down in the last week or two by the catins on a330 flights for a demonstrated lack of knowledge of basic emergency proceedures. one a330 skipper I was talking to in the crew room recently,said he is now telling his CM that he will be questioning the casual crew, and will have no problem standing any down that don't know or are unable to explain to him their duties in variou EMG situations.

Gas Bags
7th Aug 2010, 05:16
To get a balanced outcome, I wonder has this particular A330 Captain questioned any other cabin crew to see if they are at the required standard or has he only questioned casual staff?

It could be entirely possible that this is a problem across the complete cabin crew workforce if it is now being demonstrated that some staff are not up to speed.

I would imagine that whether you are full time, part time, or casual, the training standards would all be the same.

GB

skyshow
7th Aug 2010, 10:34
Altara provides casuals to both Jetstar and Tiger Airways with recruits having no say who they're contracted to. My understanding.

Perhaps the training is the same, but the mentality of an 18 year old (eg) who knows they're going to move jobs before to see his/her first EP renewal makes them a little slack to worry about safety or bother to keep it fresh in their minds?

And yes, if a company is desparate to get numbers they will pass trainees with an extra needed mark here and there. Seen it first hand happen in my initials (not in my current airline though).

Gas Bags
7th Aug 2010, 11:07
I would be really interested to hear from any casual cabin crew regarding their take on this.

Are all casual cabin crew really 18 years old just filling in time between courses/jobs?

If that is the case I am a little worried....

GB

A. Le Rhone
7th Aug 2010, 11:51
This A330 Captain who has allegedly taken it on himself to start questioning fellow crew-members about their knowledge perhaps needs to exercise a degree of discretion and diplomacy.

The last thing we need to do is start bickering amongst ourselves. That simply plays further into the hands of divisive managers who like nothing better than to foster disharmony amongst the ranks.

Flava Saver
7th Aug 2010, 12:51
ALR...This is warranted. There is plenty going on behind the scenes. The grenade has been thrown.

Grab some popcorn folks...mark my word.

urok
7th Aug 2010, 14:09
at least two casual flight attendants have been stood down in the last week or two by the catins on a330

Casual crew are not trained nor endorsed on the 330 - perhaps the rumour refers to the Singapore or Bangkok based full-time contracted crew?

And it's not only the guys at the Business end who are getting hot under the collar due to a few (and I do mean a very select few, as opposed to the majority) of the new crew. While the level of training is obviously acceptable for CASA (surprise surprise...), it most certainly will not be acceptable for any passengers, crew - technical or otherwise, or any of the family or friends of any of those groups of people who find themselves on a burning rig hurtling towards terra firma. It is unfortunately only then that our concerns will be taken with any degree of seriousness.

I personally do not see a crew member who does not understand basic EP's or SOP's, especially in regards to Secondary Notifications, use of BCF's and other equiptment, or emergency door operation as a valuable member of any flying team. Anyone who might suggest that they would arm their door and then open it upon hearing the "Alert Phase" PA might well benefit from a little more work at the very least...

Cabin crew need all the support and clout of our pilot friends on this one. On $36k a year, and with a line up out the door and around the corner of eager kids ready to replace us, we truly can't afford balls....

Sqwark2000
7th Aug 2010, 21:59
Would never work for pilots....

If a airline went down the road of casual pilots 1 of 2 things would happen....

1. Company would have a heap of extra 6monthly sim checks to cover as all pilots would need a current OCA check for that particular operation, as well as Avsec, DG and other required flightcrew training. I doubt any company would do that....

or 2. Casuals required to pay for their own 6 monthly sim checks, Avsec and DG currency, and that would not be economically viable to anyone, so a lack of casual crew supply would negate the need.

AirNZ maintains a pool of casual staff, mainly from experienced ex-full-timers wanting a reduced work lifestyle. Any newbies are usually full-time temps on 12month contracts with option to apply for fulltime. Very occasionally there isn't fulltime jobs for the temps at the end of 12months but mostly they'll get picked up or finish of their own accord.

S2K

stina
7th Aug 2010, 23:03
hii guys.. just wondering if anyone can help me, i have been offered a casual cabin crew position with jetstar via altara resources... and i am wondering if anyone can give me an idea of how many hours a week this involves... i am currently in a full time position 38 hours a week, and am a bit confused on making my descions.... any help would be appreciated... thank you

Worrals in the wilds
7th Aug 2010, 23:56
mainly from experienced ex-full-timers wanting a reduced work lifestyle.

That's where limited casualization can work well for a company.

On $36k a year, and with a line up out the door and around the corner of eager kids ready to replace us, we truly can't afford balls....

And that's where it doesn't. It produces bad enough results when you're only looking at customer service such as in a shop or hotel environment, but to trust airline safety procedures to a revolving cast of 18 year olds on 36K (if that's an accurate figure) is irresponsible and asking for trouble. It's a job with important safety related tasks that need to be done correctly.

Wouldn't working in a decent restaurant or shop get you more than $36K pa? Why work for Jetstar?

Jethro Gibbs
8th Aug 2010, 06:53
$36K pa you will never be given enough hours to make that.:sad: but make sure you are ready at call 24/7.

NOTE
You must be available to work 15 days per calendar month including 4 weekend days

airtags
8th Aug 2010, 07:05
..................well there is the vacancy for their "Head of Safety".....
.. PD summary interestingly lists:

quote: [Managing the company’s outsourced safety management programme]

So from this it is not unreasonable to say that;
- JQ is outsourcing the outsource's safety management to another outsource........chain of command has become the chain of diminished accountability!

AT
:E

standard unit
9th Aug 2010, 08:52
...... but to trust airline safety procedures to a revolving cast of 18 year olds on 36K (if that's an accurate figure) is irresponsible and asking for trouble. It's a job with important safety related tasks that need to be done correctly.

Yes indeed.

Witness what is happening on the A380 at the moment.

Amongst many other operational cluster fukcs here is the most recent.

A380 hit by lightening on decent.

The two brand new kiddies at doors 1 panic at the sound and commence shouting brace commands despite the fact that the aircraft was at 6000 feet with the gear still up.

The rest of the crew who have an obligation under standard SOPs to follow up the brace commands instead ignore them and the aircraft continues it's decent and lands safely.

Jethro Gibbs
9th Aug 2010, 10:23
It all comes down to the fact they do not want to employ or pay anyone.

avigirl
17th Aug 2010, 01:16
Magicbox, minimal training? are you kidding?:= they have condensed the same normally 6 weeks of training into 3 and it is gruelling with 80 - 100 pass mark and an exam practically every day and if you don't get alot higher than 80 you are given a lecture implying you aren't studying hard enough!!! Even Virgin do it in 5, Qantas etc in 6 and bearing in mind the aircraft fit outs are not uniform as they are for Qantas crew, I think they deserve a medal just to get through without it doing their head in. Age ranges from 18 to late 40's with same entry requirements as full time crew just none of the benefits :ugh: I know cabin crew who were employed by Qantas at 18 who wouldn't have stood up to this amount of pressure :bored: so in my opinion, i think they would be an asset to JetStar and any future employers.

Counter-rotation
17th Aug 2010, 02:48
avigirl
they have condensed the same normally 6 weeks of training into 3

That doesn't sound like good (ie. effective) training to me!! := (there's a finger wag for you... :))
Even Virgin do it in 5, Qantas etc in 6 and bearing in mind the aircraft fit outs are not uniform as they are for Qantas crew

So everyone else is doing it differently (and the way J* used to?) - maybe there's a reason for that?

In addition to all this, I recall reading about some VERY long duty periods for some CC. Assuming those accounts were correct, well that's gotta help too!!

Re-read some of what's been posted here (by people far more experienced than me BTW), then check out the scrum in any J* hull when it pulls up to the bay - god help 'em all if they REALLY had to get in a hurry... :eek:

CR.

KRUSTY 34
17th Aug 2010, 04:06
WOW avigirl!

Those people are nothing short of heroic. Completly deluded Lemings, but heroic none the less! :rolleyes:

Worrals in the wilds
17th Aug 2010, 04:48
Gee, do all that in three weeks, remember none of it and (worst case scenario) end up in what the yank cop shows call A Situation with no effective skills, and all for $36K pa :ugh::ugh:

Or, jump onto Seek and find a bunch of retail jobs paying $35-55K pa where you can be home every night and won't end up in front of the ATSB justifying your actions when it all goes pear shaped.

[sarcasm mode off] Avigirl, I don't think anyone is having a personal go at the individual staff members (I'm not, anyway) but at Jetstar itself for the questionable training, pay and conditions they provide for cabin crew. Probably the bulk of Jetstar staff are doing the best they can under the circumstances, but the training regime you describe is substandard and it's no wonder staff can't remember procedures or go to pieces in an unusual situation.

Conducting a safety based course in three weeks that takes every other provider 5 smells fishy, even if they do have an all star cast of applicants. It's not something Jetstar should be proud of, whatever spin they choose to put on it.

KRUSTY 34
17th Aug 2010, 07:27
I'll go a step further Worrals'.

avigirl is either incredibly naive, or a Managent Apologist/Stooge, trying to defend the indefensible.

I think it's important however that more than one side of the story is gven, but it'll be interesting to see if her contribution to Pprune extends beyond just one "Hit and Run" post?

Worrals in the wilds
17th Aug 2010, 08:35
Good point Krusty, I'd forgotten to be wary of suspiciously new posters:suspect:.
If s/he/it is a management stooge, the post does Jetstar no favours at all as it just lets the rest of us know about their wham-bam approach to training.

Jethro Gibbs
17th Aug 2010, 08:40
She is a HR Type for sure they all speak the same crap.

Z Force
17th Aug 2010, 23:02
One would assume that the course has been apporved by CASA.

standard unit
17th Aug 2010, 23:16
Which means what ?
The tail wags the dog.....

Normasars
18th Aug 2010, 00:45
Avigirl,

get your facts right before you make yourself look like a buffoon.

For a start, QF a/c are NOT all standard fitouts as you say. Nothing could be further from the truth. Short Haul C/C have to know 2 variants of each type ala 6 different types ie 767 GE or Roller, 734 or 8 and finally A332 or 3.

So before you make yourself look anymore naive, please don't dig yourself a deeper hole.

Taildragger67
18th Aug 2010, 03:21
Throw in 4 x 744 configs for L/H crew (with another on the way), plus the A332 and A333... that's a trifle more than 1 x A320, 1 x A321, 1 x A332. :confused:

73to91
18th Aug 2010, 03:43
Many years since I left QF but....do they really employ 18 year olds as cabin crew?

Surely not International Crew - the drinking age in some ports is 21 :ok:

Seriously though, on a recent trip back from HNL I asked the Jet * attendant how many days off they got there, where they stayed these days, etc - just small talk as she was a nice girl and pretty attentive. Anyway, she said they had 2 days off and the night after they arrived back in SYD, she was off to DPS.

Now, I had a good nights sleep, went to work the next day and crased about 10:30 the following night - this girl would have been 5 hours into her SYD-DPS sector BUT she then has to turn around and come back to SYD, surely that is not healthy and more importantly that should raise some concerns?

Z Force
18th Aug 2010, 08:56
Until CASA implements flight and duty limits for flight attendants (which I believe is a requirement under ICAO legislation as pointed out to CASA by ICAO under an audit a couple of years ago), we will see the continued exploitation of people by big business who do not care about the welfare of their employees and are too blind to see the safety implications of having fatigued flight attendants. Remember that a flight attendant's primary role is one of safety. You CANNOT have fatigued personel operating in a safety role.

Worrals in the wilds
18th Aug 2010, 09:35
Are there no current limits at all?

standard unit
18th Aug 2010, 11:48
I can shed some light on how it is in the Qantas group with regard to cabin crew hours limitations.

An A380 very recently took off from Heathrow and returned for some technical issue after dumping fuel.

A number of the cabin crew decided that they could not work beyond 20 hours and elected to get off.

There were no replacement cabin crew available for the flight and the aircraft left some 12 hours or so later with a fresh crew.

Lots of very inconvenienced passengers including one, Alan Joyce.

Now, I have it on very good authority that severe criticisms were made of the crew by senior management because an element of them felt that in this case they couldn't go beyond 20 hours.

I genuinely don't think that management consider that cabin crew fatigue or flight duty limitations have [I]any bearing on safety.

When in the past I've had the temerity to questions ops over these types of issues [as they are occurring] I'm invariably fed their standard, "industrial agreement" line that goes like this-

" It's legal".

Worrals in the wilds
18th Aug 2010, 12:02
" It's legal".

So is prostitution, but you don't necessarily factor it into a business plan.
I genuinely don't think that management consider that cabin crew fatigue or flight duty limitations have any bearing on safety.
The problem is, 99.9% of the time it doesn't, and that's all the beancounters and management flunkies care about. The 0.01% of the time where it does, the ensuing mayhem proves that it did have a bearing, and the media / distraught rellies have a field day.
Titanic Syndrome in action. Most liferafts never get used... doesn't mean you sail without 'em.
Oh well, more operational voices in the wilderness :ugh::ugh:

Jack Ranga
18th Aug 2010, 17:39
Well................If you're desperate and will do anything to enter the profession you get no empathy from me.

Time to read the safety card just a little more carefully :ok:

digging the dirt
19th Aug 2010, 03:29
I'm in my early 30's and have been with Jetstar for 2 years. First of all I thinks 3 week's training is a joke, when I started the ground school went for 6 week's. Online the lack of experience and JQ training shows. You will see a casual standing in the back galley the interphone will go off and no reaction at all, Same for call bells. I feel sorry for the poor CM who will turn up at sign-on and realise they are flying with 3, 18-19yr olds who have just been checked to line. They pass the casuals, anyone for that matter because they are desperate. Pass rates of 90%+, well its not hard when the multiple choice answer is so obvious.

I must admit the casuals have a wealth of knowledge of basic ep's during breifing It's when shit hits the fan inflight that I think the real issues will arise, that is lack of work and life experience.:ugh:

avigirl
19th Aug 2010, 06:22
umm, Digging the Dirt, there a lot of older casuals there as well, some have previously worked for companies like Virgin, Qantas, Easy Jet, American Airlines as c/c, so they aren't all young with no life experience. How much did you have when you joined anyway?

They pass the casuals, anyone for that matter because they are desperate. Pass rates of 90%+, well its not hard when the multiple choice answer is so obvious.What rubbish,the casuals have to be even smarter and more switched on as they have to absorb a six week course in three and still meet the same standard as the course syllabus is CASA approved and cannot be circumvented.They are doing 12 to 14 hour days and still have to eat sleep and study.

Online the lack of experience and JQ training shows. You will see a casual standing in the back galley the interphone will go off and no reaction at all, Same for call bells. I feel sorry for the poor CM who will turn up at sign-on and realise they are flying with 3, 18-19yr olds who have just been checked to line.
So I suppose you were just the perfect flight attendant on your first couple of trips never a mistake always on the ball, what a hero.

I must admit the casuals have a wealth of knowledge of basic ep's during breifing It's when shit hits the fan inflight that I think the real issues will arise, that is lack of work and life experience.:ugh:Again what rubbish,you THINK the real issues will arise etc, you don't really know. You are drawing on your whole two years experience to make this very subjective judgment. I have seen some highly experienced c/c lose it when the pressure is on. It is all to do with personality and mental strength not lack of work or life experience.

avigirl
19th Aug 2010, 06:24
Well........Jack Ranga, if you are cabin crew, shouldn't empathy be one of your foremost qualities?

Worrals in the wilds
19th Aug 2010, 08:25
Have to fund yourself for the three weeks of training,
Isn't that a breach of the Fair Work Act? (Tidbinbilla, you probably know for sure).

From the Fair Work website...
"You should be paid for all hours you work, including trial shifts or probation periods, meetings, training and opening and closing the business."

If I get a chance I'll trawl through the Act and look for the actual section, but my understanding was that unpaid training was illegal except for voluntary organizations.

Jack Ranga
19th Aug 2010, 16:01
Avigirl,

I'm not in the habit of lecturing, I've made enough mistakes in life myself :)

I don't think people in Oz need to be desperate in regard to finding employment.

There's also a fair days pay for a fair days work.

I'd suggest that any of the casuals that have accepted these positions knew full well what the pay was going to be, what other f/a's in other airlines are earning etc and the hours of work.............

If the job is accepted knowing the above, well, suck it up, do the job or move on. Maybe then companies who engage in these practices may figure out it costs them more in the long run.

Jethro Gibbs
20th Aug 2010, 01:46
avigirl works for the third party labor hire recruiter for sure they all speak the same line of crap I would bet she ain,t on a casual agreement.:ugh:

avigirl
20th Aug 2010, 02:36
Jack Ranga, none is suggesting they are not "sucking it up", obviously they are, however, some of you seem to be bagging them out and deeming them unsuitable for accepting and filling positions they have a passion for that have arisen and which may be the only way they can enter this area at this present time-it's not any fault of theirs various airlines have this shallow minded cost cutting idealogy. I'm sure there will be some awesome cabin crew come out of it as obviously they aren't doing it for the money or conditions.:ugh:

avigirl
20th Aug 2010, 02:39
Jethro Gibbs, how about noooooooo, don't work for them :hmm:

Jethro Gibbs
20th Aug 2010, 06:48
you sure are pushing them:ok:

Worrals in the wilds
20th Aug 2010, 14:44
...deeming them unsuitable for accepting and filling positions they have a passion for that have arisen and which may be the only way they can enter this area at this present time-it's not any fault of theirs various airlines have this shallow minded cost cutting idealogy.

Whether they are suitable or not is irrelevant if the training provided is unsatisfactory. Very few people can succeed at anything without being trained properly.

As for the title, it's not as silly as it sounds. Before aviation, government and a few other activities my first career was in the entertainment industry. In the last twenty years it has been rogered by people with Passion and no sense of their own value, which is why many rewarding (if badly paid) showbiz career paths are now almost extinct in Australia.

For example, say you own a television company. Why hire scriptwriters and professional actors at award rates to produce a good series when a bunch of exhibitionist bogans will be locked in a donger and perform for free?
Why pay professional models when gullible teenagers with stars in their eyes will undercut any attempts to get reasonable pay because they Wanna Be A Supermodel and will work for free?
Why pay talented strippers by the hour when a bunch of drugged up ferals will work purely for tips?
Who cares if the product is inferior when people still buy it? People will buy all sorts of crap if you market it properly, just ask Maccas.

Of course, entertainment is not a 'serious' industry in that people don't get hurt by substandard employees. No-one got injured by bad reality shows, and no-one died because a lousy model fell over on the catwalk (well maybe the designer if he was one of those excitable campy types :E).

Aviation is different. FAs have an important safety function, and once in a while people live or die by their decisions, training and ability. It is a safety dependent job that should demand a basic level of expertise, and CS skills, personality, 'passion' and general bonkability are secondary (if traditional) skills. To argue that 'passion' is all that matters in an FA is wrong. If people want to be FAs for free then that's their problem, but if the core training is rushed and inadequate (and it sounds that way) then there is a public safety risk.


I have seen some highly experienced c/c lose it when the pressure is on. It is all to do with personality and mental strength not lack of work or life experience.


No it isn't. Personality plays an important part but training, practice, confidence and familiarity are vital components of being cool under fire. That is why emergency services departments and the military spend so much time practising scenarios. The coolest person in the world will not often react well in an unfamiliar situation.

Of course there'll still be people willing to apply under Jetstar's conditions. There are people willing to work for free in disgusting conditions in fashionable industries. But don't expect applause and congratulations from the people in the aviation industry who still value substance over style, practice over passion and reasonable pay and conditions for keeping pax safe.
Avigirl, if you are wanting people to support low paid, badly trained, exploited aviation workers who still keep working for said exploiter in a country with 5% unemployment, then I believe you have come to the wrong IP address.

Also, have a readup on the Nuremburg Defence and why it doesn't work in court.

whatever6719
21st Aug 2010, 02:38
What a great post Worrals!!!
It is an unfortunate paradox that those who feel they want the job so badly and are so mesmorised by the idea of it end up destroying it for themselves and others over time.
Speaking from experience, the job looks pretty bloody good when looking at it from a pax perspective. Ignorance is bliss!! Once reality sets in and they really see the job warts and all, those rose coloured glasses fall off pretty quickly!!

I still love the job overall. Im fortunate that im on a decent contract. It is still
soul destroying seeing the profession being slowly devalued to a Mc job.

Ahhhh, globalisation!!! :ugh:

hollyrc
23rd Aug 2010, 09:53
Did anyonee go to the brisbane altara/jetstar casual cabin crew interveiw ?
if so who has heard back !!! its killing me waiting !!!!!

hollyrc
23rd Aug 2010, 09:57
pleaseee anyone!!

Dj Dave
23rd Aug 2010, 12:49
holly go to bunnings. buy some bricks. build a bridge and get over it

avigirl
23rd Aug 2010, 23:43
Worrals in the Wilds, i just don't think you get what i'm trying to get through to you. I've been in the Aviation industry for 30 years. 20-30 years ago, cabin crew had a 20 minute interview one day and if they were successful, started training the next week. None of the crap that goes on today, and alot of them are still flying. The average age was 19-20 for the domestics and 21 for international. I don't know how you can generalise and say these JetStar casuals are any less capable than anyone else - Most take it quite seriously thank you and will make excellent cabin crew and any that don't, simply don't make it through. There are the same factors with the full timers, not all of them take it as seriously as they should either. Sure it isn't the perfect situation for them to be treated substandardly and paid a crap wage but if anything it would weed out the ones who weren't passionate about it as they could get paid more at Aldi packing shelves. If they don't do it, someone else will. I've come across a fair amount of questionable cabin crew in my time who are being paid a hell of a lot more, had the 6 weeks training, treat passengers as subhumans yet still manage to keep their jobs even though they're demeanor shows they are well and truely over the whole thing. Safety issues are of paramount importance of course however i don't think you should just assume these people would be any less efficent and capable as anyone else.

Unfortunately, it doesnt appear to be a job for life anymore as airlines want to get what they can out of everyone and spit them out before they are eligible for such things as long service etc etc. Look at the SQ c/crews, they are lucky to make it past 30 and are subject to humiliating weight checks etc.

Aren't the consulting companies who are hired by the airlines to outsource run by former cabin crew and airline management people? Your beef should be with them and the attitude of the cost cutting mentality of the airlines concerned, not the poor buggers trying to get into an industry they love. It is more expensive to park at the airport than to buy a dam ticket somewhere today :ugh:yet there are not the potential life threatening situations for a car parked in a car park as there are for getting on a plane to go somewhere.

Maybe you all need to get together as a "team", support each other and address the matter constructively with the airlines concerned.

standard unit
24th Aug 2010, 00:12
The average age was 19-20 for the domestics and 21 for international.

What utter rubbish.

20 to 30 years ago those employed by QF in the role of a flight attendant came from a varied range of backgrounds.

The common thread amongst them being that they came with practical skills developed outside the industry and/or life experience.

Tradesmen, teachers, fire fighters, nurses, accountants, police etc still feature heavily in our ranks.

The job came with good conditions and pay and was highly sought after with thousands often applying for a handful of positions.

QF had the ability to choose the best and did so.

Now it's a McJob and QF have resorted to using face-book to advertise for positions vacant.

avigirl
24th Aug 2010, 02:58
Still highly sort after with thousands applying for a handful of positions and same still applies, varied backgrounds and ages with a variety of life experiences - a few of them might be on the young side but have you seen any of the airlines careers websites? states you have to be over 18, so if they really want mid twenties/thirties with heaps of life experience etc, why don't they just put that and stop wasting peoples time (not saying that everyone in that older age/life experience background is mature and not wrong for the job too though). You shouldn't generalise about these people, i've seen some pretty immature and apaulling cabin service from some of the so called pick of the bunch over the years.

And everyone is using social networking sites to advertise for positions nowadays. I've seen some pretty unprofessional photos of airline crews, on their f/book accounts, with some being in full uniform :hmm:. Unless these new recruits know someone on the inside, how would they know this training is usually done over a six week period and that the pay hasn't always been that bad? They probably think it is how is always was. As far as they're concerned, they're probably just excited to get into a job they want to do, just like you were once upon a time (your good fortune to have been paid twice, or more, as much and not treated like some sort of inadequate subspecies though). Try not to discriminate against these people, it's not their fault. Management are the selfish, greedy bastards in this situation. Would you feel better if they were trained over the six weeks and given better conditions? I'm sure they would relish it too. Take it up with companies concerned and do your best to rectify the situation.;)

domaus
26th Aug 2010, 09:11
Yes thousands still apply... but those applying are no longer the experienced type - most are youngsters due to the conditions. You would rarely find anyone wanting to drop pay to be a casual unless they were living at home/flat mating and don't earn much more than offered. Back in the day the ones applying were experienced in life for a start. Most airlines now don't offer much service so neither do the applicants. The quality has dimished heavily. And its all airlines. But yes, its the airlines' fault. Basically if you want the job - apply. If you don't, don't. But in my opinion these casual conditions/cheaper contracts appeal to those who cannot offer much and never have. Pay peanuts get monkeys. Simple! And soon, possibly, the industry could be all monkeys! At least in the USA for example the money isn't good but seniority is a benefit (lifestyle). No new contract or airline offers that, or even bidding in the lower cost airlines/casuals. And day trips for the low cost airlines is not the picture some newbies have in mind!
So after a few months of flying four sector days, if no say over lifestyle doesn't appeal, money doesn't appeal, lack of overnights in some low cost airlines, the appeal of being a flight attendant dimishes quickly and has a shelf life for most of a year or two.
In ten years time I reckon a high percentage of the population (!) would be able to say 'oh yeah, I was a flight attendant once!' Nearly everyone I know outside the industry knows a flight attendant or ex flight attendant already!

cody24
26th Aug 2010, 10:58
Seems to be A LOT of new Jetstar crew who are getting Casual Cabin Crew positions. All seem to be young people. Guys - you seriously need to think about this. Jetstar will prob only offer you minimal hours, as long as they have a high number of staffing levels it gives them maximum flexibility in terms of crewing. I just don't see how you can survive with such few hours - and being on call for the rest. Sure, it may work for middle aged mothers and various other situations, but not for all. Don't think you can transfer into a full time role after a few months - that is simply not the way Jetstar operates. At this rate Jetstar won't offer anymore fulltime positions if hundreds of people are desperate for a cabin crew role and settle for casual.

Jethro Gibbs
26th Aug 2010, 11:02
cody24

How true :ok:you got it correct don,t know why others can not see this.

ButFli
10th Jun 2012, 01:39
Avigirl wrote:
states you have to be over 18, so if they really want mid twenties/thirties with heaps of life experience etc, why don't they just put that and stop wasting peoples time

Because advertising such an age limit would be illegal. They can say they'll only employ adults so they can set an age limit at 18. Setting an age limit, either minimum or maximum, that is anything other than adulthood is age discrimination and is illegal.

Obviously they can choose not to employ someone if they don't have enough "life experience", but they can't use an age limit to arbitrarily determine that.