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ExSp33db1rd
4th Aug 2010, 20:26
USA Retailers.

My annual moan.

Why can't US shops, Supermarkets, Convenience stores etc. show the TOTAL price that they expect me to pay on the shelf sticker ?

I know all about each State, and even City, levying a different tax, which makes the cost of identical items different across the Nation, but for f***s sake, the Supermarket in the City I am now visiting knows the tax in that City, so why not show the 'real' price I have to pay to compare and decide ?

I know, I know, it's so that one is conned into thinking that one is getting a bargain, but it totally p*ss*s me off.

Yesterday I was charged not only tax, but a re-cycling fee on top for the plastic bottle of drink I was trying to buy, no argument with the policy - except why the f**k didn't they say so on the price tag ? Tax and plastic levy doesn't change in that specific locality.

I left the drink on the counter, my purchase was nice to have, not need to have, but maybe they needed my money ?

St*ff 'em.

boftr
4th Aug 2010, 20:29
You took action, however small. Sure you aren't American after all?

G-CPTN
4th Aug 2010, 20:38
Soon after Value Added Tax (!) - VAT - was introduced in the UK, there was a rash of outlets who chose to price their items as 'plus VAT' - which, of course, altered one's perception of the worth of a product.
Eventually, the Guvmint issued an edict that all (retail) outlets had to show inclusive prices. Places like motor factors (who deal predominantly with the trade) persist in prices without VAT.

Guvmint wants to start on restaurants that have automatic service charges of around 15% that they lob onto your bill (and then expect you to leave a tip!).

Loose rivets
4th Aug 2010, 20:42
I simply cross that off if I'm not delighted with the service. And, I never tip if I do pay it.

But then, I've long dreamed of owning a restaurant that does not worry the customer with ANY money issues during the visit.

All ordering done on't net, and all tipping banned. Quiet music and a sense of having been invited into a fine private home. I worked out that the savings in not stocking vast arrays of food on the off-chance someone would want them, would pay for a lot of 'service'.

Gordy
4th Aug 2010, 21:25
I simply cross that off if I'm not delighted with the service. And, I never tip if I do pay it.

And their incentive to "delight" you with their service is?????

I realize the two systems are different, but on this side of the pond, most wait staff are lucky to be paid minimum wage...some states even have a lower minimum wage for table servers. They live off their tips, and therefore try to treat you right.

They are taxed, (as in income tax), based upon tips. So if you "stiff" wait staff here in the US, it actually costs them money---most of the cash registers will assume they are tipped based upon the cost of your meal and tax them accordingly.

Rollingthunder
4th Aug 2010, 21:32
I suspect rerailers do it because tax is then itemized on the sales slip and in the cash registers memory thus making their bookeeping easier.

Parapunter
4th Aug 2010, 21:39
It's harder to do a sum in America? 10 dollars plus 10% = 11 dollars. Where's the hardship in that?

Whirlygig
4th Aug 2010, 22:24
I share your frustration ExSp33dbird ....

All that's required is a re-programming of accounting software; there is no logical reason why prices are shown ex-sales tax in the States but that's the way they've always done it for the convenience of the retailer rather than consumer. :ok:

The argument that tax rates vary from state to state doesn't work (tax rates vary across Europe but M&S seems to manage), the bookkeeping is different but no easier or harder.

No doubt there will be some Americans on here who will take this as an affront but I'm sure a mature and secure nation can take a wee bit of criticism. ;)

Cheers

Whirls

sea oxen
4th Aug 2010, 22:45
It's not the end of the world - just look at how you're stuck with the absurd recycling levy in Germany for aluminium cans and glass bottles.

For that matter, you can wander into a leather shop in MBK in Bangkok and buy a nice briefcase. They won't add tax, but if you paid the marked price you've paid twice what you should have.

You've been around long enough to see what hotels in certain countries do with a bit of city lodging tax here, a service charge there and a little VAT on the end.

I had the same complaint from Mrs SO after a shopping trip in NYC. She calmed down after I explained that we'd still acquired a significant bargain. It wore off, though :)

We spent a few days over New Year's Eve at a five star hotel, and a note pushed under our door solemnly announced that there would be a $70 corkage charge for any alcohol brought in from outside consumed in the room. Weird.

I wish you an enjoyable trip despite the niggles.

SO

birrddog
4th Aug 2010, 22:55
All that's required is a re-programming of accounting software; there is no logical reason why prices are shown ex-sales tax in the States but that's the way they've always done it for the convenience of the retailer rather than consumer. :ok:

The argument that tax rates vary from state to state doesn't work (tax rates vary across Europe but M&S seems to manage), the bookkeeping is different but no easier or harder.
Not quite true.

We have inter-state clauses, that means if you for example, go to a store in NYC and buy something, and have them deliver it to your address in Connecticut or New Jersey, then you don't pay the sales tax, in which case what you see is what you pay.

This holds true if shipping to a state where the business does not have a physical presence, in which case they would have to charge you the tax of that state.

This is a particularly relevant issue for on-line sales.

seacue
4th Aug 2010, 23:40
This holds true if shipping to a state where the business does not have a physical presence, in which case they would have to charge you the tax of that state. I think you have this backwards. In my experience, they have to collect the tax if they DO have a physical presence in the state where the product is delivered. You'll find on-line retailers which list the states where they have a presence and thus have to charge you the sales tax.

A number of states have no state income tax
http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.pdf

but have a high sales tax or fees, etc..
theSTC - State Sales Tax Rates (http://www.thestc.com/STrates.stm)

Dutch1911
4th Aug 2010, 23:45
I share your frustration ExSp33dbird ....

All that's required is a re-programming of accounting software; there is no logical reason why prices are shown ex-sales tax in the States but that's the way they've always done it for the convenience of the retailer rather than consumer. :ok:

The argument that tax rates vary from state to state doesn't work (tax rates vary across Europe but M&S seems to manage), the bookkeeping is different but no easier or harder.

No doubt there will be some Americans on here who will take this as an affront but I'm sure a mature and secure nation can take a wee bit of criticism. ;)

Cheers

Whirls

It's not a technology issue. Of course a cash register can be programmed. The issue is that on this side of the Atlantic we do not want to be seen as complicit with the government in confiscating money in the form of sales taxes. As such the retailers would show the price they would sell the item for, the rest is between the consumer and the government. They, begrudgingly, collect it but they sure do not want to make it look like they are keeping it. They want to show the whole world how much the government is taking.

The government is not the solution; the government is the problem.

Um... lifting...
4th Aug 2010, 23:49
All true... or you can go to New Hampshire, where there is no state or local sales tax, though they do have a couple other arcane and bizarre edicts to even things out, such as state liquor stores and the meal tax (buy a lobster from a market, it is a food... if the fishmonger steams it for you and you take it away, regardless of your actual immediate intent, it is a meal... Mum gave me an earful about this last week, never mind she's known about it for 40 years). One upshot of the no sales tax thing is that there isn't any real reason to charge you $4.99 for something, they simply charge you $5.
And while we're on strange money bits, why, in this day & age, do we price motor fuels in the U.S. at $2.79 & 9/10. I get it that when fuel was around $0.30 that the 9/10 was a significant cut to the seller.

But, all countries and places have their own unique ways they try to rip you off, either through regressive tax, misleading pricing, or other. It ain't just the U.S. I figured this was why many of you traveled... to find new things to kvetch about.

barit1
5th Aug 2010, 02:09
The petrol station across the pike is advertising regular gas at $2.769/gallon.

The nine-tenths of a cent is just plain goofy. It's been a convention here in the colonies for at least 65 years - so why the he11 aint it $2.77???? :rolleyes:

PaperTiger
5th Aug 2010, 03:39
For individuals who qualify, sales tax can be claimed as a deductible item on the federal income tax return. Claimants can either use a government-supplied 'formula' to calculate (estimate, actually) their allowance, or they can submit ALL their receipts for the entire year.

I'm sure very few use the latter method, but sales tax has to be a separate line on all receipts just in case someone wants to; and so you get a receipt for every piddling little transaction. Remember the origins of the US - taxation is very much a sacred cow requiring convoluted rules to ensure fairness.

Yeah, right. :hmm:

so why the he11 aint it $2.77?Same reason a shirt is $49.99 and a car is $29,995. The manufacturers figure people are smart enough to round up. They're probably right.

Loose rivets
5th Aug 2010, 04:34
Don't agree with any of it. Bloody restaurants can pay their staff a proper wage. Don't add it on afterwords. Just don't.

Sales. Daft tax idea. Well, better 8.25% (6.25 on cars) than 17.5%. Soon 20 ??!! Gosh. Oh, except that here, they tax all sales, private or not...and now, they tell you what the car is worth. Texas Presumptive Value, is what you'll pay. Unless...unless someone gives you a car. The Caddy we have was gifted to us, and so no tax was due. Odd that they'd let that go by.

I hate fishing in my pocket for cash here there and everywhere. Just stop begging at me when you should structure your :mad: business properly. It's irritating and demeaning at the same time.

I don't mind folk begging when they really need it, though the need for a vet to do this in the USA is bewildering.

Firemen with their boots held out at traffic lights. (before you mention it, not the volunteer units in this case.) Even the police phone to beg. My property taxes are much the same as my rates were at home, but one cop, having been told by me that all my charity payments - that I take from a small pension, go to children's charities, said that he'd send me a receipt anyway, for my taxes. After his sarcasm, he slammed the phone down. Okay, made me feel better about not giving him a dime.

I give to folk on the side of the road, that really do have a limb missing. Don't care if they make 100k a year. Sitting in 105f is hard to do.

Kids in Mexico get my cash as well. In fact last trip they got all of it. I was p1ssed, and rather emotional, but there we are, the pavement where the mothers lay the children, is bloody hot.

I really object to vast businesses like city airports gouging dollars and dimes out of harassed passengers. But there, it's getting worse. Ryan Air will want a levy paid for each wing soon. God I hate this pathetic penny-pinching undercurrent in nations that are part of the world's major economic fabric.

Whirlygig
5th Aug 2010, 10:09
birrddog, again, in Europe we seem to manage with cross-border sales and reclaiming tax on export/import but still displaying prices as being inclusive of sales tax.

PaperTiger, again there are individuals and businesses which can reclaim VAT; we manage.

It's just a different form of bookkeeping and accounting.

I think Dutch1911 may have hit the nail on the head but I don't really see it as a valid reason. Surely everyone knows it's the Guvment's money - there's no complicity involved; it's compulsory.

Part of the difference is that we have fewer rates of VAT; 17.5% and 0% being the most common. The general public in the UK is not expected to be become an expert in what has VAT applied and what doesn't.

Cheers

Whirls

chevvron
5th Aug 2010, 10:20
Can anyone give me a 'rule of thumb' for working out 8.5% sales tax 'cos that's the rate I seem to get charged; it's not as easy as 5 or 10%.

forget
5th Aug 2010, 11:44
One upshot of the no sales tax thing is that there isn't any real reason to charge you $4.99 for something, they simply charge you $5.

I'd heard the odd cent/penny was to make sure the transaction went through the till. If something is exactly $5 you give $5 and walk off. 5 bucks straight into the server's pocket. If it's 4.99 people tend to wait for the change so the server has to ring it in.

Might not apply to $99,999:99 cars though. :hmm:

SASless
5th Aug 2010, 11:51
the Guvmint issued an edict that all (retail) outlets had to show inclusive prices.

That way the amount of the VAT was removed from view....and the folks being suckered....errrrrr....the tax payer did not revolt over how much the guvmint is getting for their zero participation in the transaction.

There is a movement afoot in the USA to make income tax payments to the IRS very much like paying your light bill....paid monthly by check, cash, or money order. Naturally the guvmint is deadset against that concept!

Do you reckon that would lead to a second American Revolution when Joe Sixpack finally figgers out how much he is paying to his dear Uncle Sam?

birrddog
5th Aug 2010, 12:15
birrddog, again, in Europe we seem to manage with cross-border sales and reclaiming tax on export/import but still displaying prices as being inclusive of sales tax.
Hrmn...... when was the last time you tried to get VAT back in the Airport flying between EU destinations?

Three Mile Final
5th Aug 2010, 12:39
My two big gripes in the US are firstly, waiting staff who expect tips of 20% or so .... if you are underpaid, take it up with your employer .. don't expect me to shell out extra for mediocre service, and secondly, unannounced add-ons at the point of sale.

I had a stand up row in Bubba Gumps in Breckenridge last winter when a server came up to me and demanded to know where his tip was (after I ave the money to a different erver as I couldn't command "my" server's attention). I had to point out in no uncertain terms that when I had to call the manager over AND got a refund because the order was wrong, the chances of a tip had evaporated. His response was to say that it was the first server that took the order and got it wrong and his delivery of the meals was surely worth a tip as he didn't make the mistake.... I don't think he expected me to tell him to get his tip off the guy who screwed up and then went for his break.

The second one is car rental pricing. When I have a price on line and a reservation, I don't expect Airport Location Charge, State Tax, Road Tax, Federal tax and Colorado Road Safety Fund surcharge and a few others to double the quoted price. Now I pay in up front when I book and it tends to work out cheaper ... evn if they have had my money a couple of months ahead. Pay with Barclaycard in case things go wrong .. then you can claw it back.

Apart from that .. great country and I love to visit and generally love the prices.

Gainesy
5th Aug 2010, 14:07
Can anyone give me a 'rule of thumb' for working out 8.5% sales tax
Divide by 100 and multiply by 8.5 should get you pretty close.:)

Whirlygig
5th Aug 2010, 14:40
Hrmn...... when was the last time you tried to get VAT back in the Airport flying between EU destinations?VAT registered businesses do although it's a paperwork exercise.

Cheers

Whirls

Gordy
5th Aug 2010, 16:18
TMF

waiting staff who expect tips of 20% or so .... if you are underpaid, take it up with your employer

As I explained earlier, the system here is different. Their wages are taxed based upon their food and beverage sales for the week. The IRS assumes they are tipped on their sales. They expect 15%.

I suspect that the reason you did not get the best service is that they may have heard an accent. Not saying that it is right---just giving you some inside info. (I live in hotels most of the year, and was married to a waitress/bartender). Europeans are known to not tip---wait staff know this and prefer to not wait on you, because 95% of the time it will cost them money.

Loose rivets
5th Aug 2010, 17:09
Blimey, that was a night last night. Forgotten I'd written my post, but it's better than another one from last night . . . can't even understand that one.

But, sentiment is the same. Hate the tipping culture.

Mind you, the few times that I've been out lately have been rather profitable. Anniversary, I tried to be cheerful, even though I was getting ticked off about the food and service. But it was to no avail, Rivetess' vegie meal was crap, and I found myself talking to the manager. They comped the lot, drinks an all. I managed to get a block away before opening the car window and shouting Yippppeeeeeeeeeee.

Florida trip was a farce, but we waded into several managers with lists of sometimes bizarrely bad service. They comped us $100's in compensation. I hasten to add, that I was very precise about the details.


One of the worst was Oooop North in the UK. Old style hotel in lovely grounds. It was diabolical. List of things too long to relate. Meeting with the manager the next day nearly ended with me being employed by the company. They agreed with everything I said. Hee hee...they even took notes.

Quite serious stuff though. One was a lovely walkway by the side of the house. The cellar had windows that were half above ground. There was just enough wall - 3" perhaps - to trip someone into the hole and through the glass. There were about 6 of these round the house. Hey, they should have paid me for the visit. Saved several hundred quid though.

People that put up with [email protected] cost me money. If folk accept bad service, they lower the bar for everyone.

con-pilot
5th Aug 2010, 19:43
Whirls

Surely everyone knows it's the Guvment's money - there's no complicity involved; it's compulsory.


Actually it's your money, it's just that the Guvment takes it away from you, err, us. :\

Matari
5th Aug 2010, 19:56
While we're talking about service charges, can somebody explain why Europeans let Internet providers (and any other home utility like water or electricity, etc.) charge for basic telephone service calls?

I had KPN install my DSL in Holland...guy leaves and it stops working. I phone KPN, and they tell me there is a Xc per minute charge for the service call I was making. I asked her why and in the typical straightforward Dutch manner the nice lady said I could take it or leave it.

I asked the locals at work if any other companies were better...but they were all the same. Apparently it is standard European practice to charge for telephone calls to a help desk.

Robbery!

11Fan
5th Aug 2010, 20:18
the nice lady said I could take it or leave it.


Queue the Argument Sketch.

Lonewolf_50
5th Aug 2010, 20:38
For the OP:

Sorry, the way the states each do it is correct, all charges explained on the receipt.

Also, there is a tax filing issue.

If one collects one's receipts, one can then do the sums and when filing for taxes claim all of the state sales tax as a deduction. (Depending on the form filed ...)

There is more to it than meets the eye. I prefer to know how much of my money is going to the shop, and how much to the criminals aka Congress.

From Mark Twain:

"Most American crime is committed by foreigners, with the exception of our native criminal class: Congress." (Or something like that).
EDIT:

Sorry, here are the actual source of that Twainism:

It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress.
- Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar

It is the foreign element that commits our crimes. There is no native criminal class except Congress.
- More Maxims of Mark, Johnson, 1927

Two's in
6th Aug 2010, 00:38
You quite right - the British system of sales tax is much easier, simply add one fifth of your purchase price - you're unlikely to forget that in a hurry.

Whirlygig
6th Aug 2010, 07:11
Think of Wallmart. They print a flyer that is good in every state.As I said, for the convenience of the retailer, not the consumer.

In any shop in the UK, you are entitled to ask for a VAT receipt; this will detail the net amount, the tax and the amount paid. Many shops give you a VAT receipt automatically. So no difference there.

The issue is the displayed price and there is no logical reason why a price ticket can't show the total tax-inclusive amount. Heck, we some retail establishment who supply to residential as well as commercial trade and they display both prices. But I guess the US system because that'sthe way it's always been done. :}


http://www.pprune.org/[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/Whirls/7435_258956810482_807255482_8649003_4040949_n.jpghttp://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/Whirls/7435_258956810482_807255482_8649003_4040949_n.jpg

Cheers

Whirls

chuks
6th Aug 2010, 12:36
John Wanamaker of Chicago came up with that one to, yes, make sure the clerk opened the till to make change. $5 meant he might be able to pocket the payment but to get that penny change he had to open the till, with that "Ka-ching!" to alert the store detective to what was going on.

I agree with the way the price goes out of sight in New York City from what the sticker says after you add the state and city sales tax. Here in Germany 4.99 means exactly that, with the 19% VAT shown separately on the chit. In New York I think you even pay city tax on the sticker price plus the state sales tax but I might be wrong about that. Anyway, if you are in the queue with a 5-dollar bill in your sticky little paw to pay for a $4.99 purchase then you will look and feel like a tourist very soon thereafter.

wings folded
6th Aug 2010, 13:02
Twos in

You quite right - the British system of sales tax is much easier, simply add one fifth of your purchase price - you're unlikely to forget that in a hurry.


Just three remarks:

1 There is no such thing as a sales tax in Britain. There are duties and there is Value Added Tax

2 Value added tax is by law included in the advertised price of a product, except for certain goods mainly bought between professionals within a same or similar industry

3 If British vendors add a fifth to the ticketed price when you go to pay, it was because they saw you coming from a mile off.

WillDAQ
6th Aug 2010, 13:29
You quite right - the British system of sales tax is much easier, simply add one fifth of your purchase price - you're unlikely to forget that in a hurry. It's back to 17.5% now, so you merely have to take 10%, add half of that on then add another half of the half on... simple.

Gainesy
6th Aug 2010, 14:16
Queue the Argument Sketch.

Cue the queue sketch.:)

Whirlygig
6th Aug 2010, 14:22
Wings folded -VAT is a form of sales tax so it's not unreasonable to call it that.

VAT registered businesses are supposed to identify their markets (with varying degrees of accuracy) as to whether they are likely to be end-user individuals/non-VAT registered entities and advertise their prices accordingly. My company supplies to both and when we sell (over the telephone) we ask if the customer is VAT registered and quote accordingly. It's not for "certain" goods or services and nor do they have to be in a similar industry - it's not as onerous as that.

Cheers

Whirls

boftr
6th Aug 2010, 14:43
But I guess the US system because that'sthe way it's always been done.


Do tell when keeping the GBP while a full-on member of the EU with all the mayhem that both the practice and the political body present. And I will pass on posting an offensive e-poster to illustrate my point

wings folded
6th Aug 2010, 15:50
It's not for "certain" goods or services and nor do they have to be in a similar industry - it's not as onerous as that.




Whirls, I simplified my remark because to go into all the intricacies of VAT would take up more pprune space than the topic merits. My firm has been a "participant" in VAT for longer than you have been eating solid foods, so I know a little bit about it..

It was simply that twos in appeared to think that VAT came as an extra on top of the price on the label. I thought it worthwhile to correct that erroneous view.

SoulManBand
7th Aug 2010, 15:04
I think Dutch1911 may have hit the nail on the head but I don't really see it as a valid reason. Surely everyone knows it's the Guvment's money - there's no complicity involved; it's compulsory.
Cheers

Whirls

First of all, Whirls, it is not "the Guvment's money", it is our money. We, the People, only allow the government to use it. We reserve every right to withdraw that option, by various means, including the ones provided in the 2nd amendment.

Now when a company is pricing something it looks at its price. Be it a box of pencils or a $150 million network expansion project the VAT or sales tax is not a relevant item as it will be passed on to the ultimate consumer. Therefore in order to make thing equitable, and not easier for the seller, the prices are quoted ex-VAT.

Also as birrddog pointed out the merchandise may be going from one jurisdiction to another and the rate may be different so it is either not charged at all (if the seller has no presence in the destination jurisdiction) or it is charged at the rate of the destination jurisdiction. The beauty of the system is that the item's price is the same no matter where you are, it is the cost of the item to the ultimate consumer that is different depending on his location.

galaxy flyer
7th Aug 2010, 17:49
In the US, one knows exactly how much and what sort of tax is being paid on purchases; it is not hidden. In VAT countries, the price is inclusive of VAT PRECISELY so the tax is hidden from the purchaser. This allows government to hide what it is taking from its citizens. The increase of VAT taxes continues, but the populace is never reminded of it on a daily basis.

I suggest all taxes be paid separately, including a monthly income tax bill. That might just inspire some indignant, but clarifying, reactions on the taxpayer's part.

GF

wings folded
8th Aug 2010, 13:01
In VAT countries, the price is inclusive of VAT PRECISELY so the tax is hidden from the purchaser. This allows government to hide what it is taking from its citizens.


Not really, galaxy, old chap.

It does not require a huge feat of cerebral activity to remember the rate of VAT which is the same from one end of the country to the other end.


The increase of VAT taxes continues,


Ummm. What about when the rate is decreased? Did you not spot that recently? In more than one country?

Matari
8th Aug 2010, 14:35
wings folded:
Ummm. What about when the rate is decreased? Did you not spot that recently? In more than one country? Well chap, it looks like VAT is being raised from 17.5 to 20%. How well is this increase known in the UK? As much as it is derided in the UK, it seems the American system of visible tax rates on every purchase is much more transparent.

The standard rate of VAT is currently 17.5 per cent but will be increased to 20 per cent on 4 January 2011. For any sales of standard-rated goods or services that you make on or after 4 January 2011 you must charge VAT at the 20 per cent rate. If you have a cash business and calculate your VAT using the VAT fraction you must use the VAT fraction of 1/6 on your standard-rated VAT inclusive sales from 4 January 2011.HM Revenue & Customs: Increase in the standard rate of VAT to 20 per cent (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/forms-rates/rates/rate-increase.htm)

wings folded
8th Aug 2010, 16:16
Well chap, it looks like VAT is being raised from 17.5 to 20%. How well is this increase known in the UK?


I am so grateful to you for monitoring the evolution of our taxation for us. Without you I would never have known that.


As much as it is derided in the UK, it seems the American system of visible tax rates on every purchase is much more transparent.


I have a random scattering of bills on my desk. Each one details the basic cost and the VAT element. It is fairly clear to anybody who can read numbers and letters. And the rate is the same over all the country.

Matari
8th Aug 2010, 16:28
And the rate is the same over all the country.Ironic how some British equate "commonality" with "good." It doesn't matter that the rate keeps going up, as long as it goes up for everybody!

Look, it's your country, however you want to tax yourselves to death it's your game.

But this thread started as a rant about US retailers displaying price before addition of sales tax. The reason we like our system is because we can see exactly how much of our money the government is taking at the point of sale, in different states and cities. If we like the taxation rate in one part of the country (or city or county), we can vote with our feet and purchase our goods there.

The system may not work for someone with European sensibilities but it works for us. Since you obviously want everybody taxed punitively at the same rate, our system is probably not for you.

wings folded
8th Aug 2010, 17:06
Ironic how some British equate "commonality" with "good."


Remarkable.

So you are agaisnt any federal law, one must suppose.


Since you obviously want everybody taxed punitively at the same rate, our system is probably not for you.


Where did the "punitive" bit come in? In your imagination I suppose. Your system is not for me.

con-pilot
8th Aug 2010, 17:07
Your system is not for me.

Good, then quit complaining about it.

Loose rivets
8th Aug 2010, 17:12
The US system is, or was, so simple - well, the Texas one, anyway.

For my CAD workstations, I'd take the month's simplified accounts and a check (cheque) to a local office, I'd also take spreadsheets showing every single item purchased and sold...right down to the last screw. They never wanted to see the latter. All done and dusted in 5 mins.

Mind you, the newly invented Excel spreadsheet helped. ;)

SoulManBand
8th Aug 2010, 17:12
Where did the "punitive" bit come in? In your imagination I suppose. Your system is not for me.

Taxation at any rate greater than 10% (and I am being generous here) is punitive. And, yes most likely the system is not for ones who don't like. As Matati pointed out one can vote with one's feet.

wings folded
8th Aug 2010, 17:12
I never did complain about it. You can do what you like. So can we.

Please pay attention

Lon More
8th Aug 2010, 17:51
Initial thought was this thread was titled "USA Retaliates"
Second thought, not so far wide of the mark

galaxy flyer
8th Aug 2010, 18:52
One thing I enjoy about threads that devolve into a Continental, UK/USA slagging match is they remind of how different we really are, how glad I am to be on this side of the Atlantic and how, blessedly, we are not like the Continentals.

Mind you, the last two weeks spent flying around Europe did much the same thing. Europe is ruled by a bunch of control freaks--that's the kindest way to put it.

GF

SoulManBand
8th Aug 2010, 18:56
GF, they are not control freaks, they just know what is good for you, beter than you do, and want to make sure you benefit from their vast knowledge. It's also called socialism.

wings folded
8th Aug 2010, 19:05
Taxation at any rate greater than 10% (and I am being generous here) is punitive.

You are being generous, no doubt, but categoric also. Where does that measure come from?

You express your opinion. A perfect right. I think you are mistaken, however.

My right.

SoulManBand
8th Aug 2010, 19:23
You can do what you like. So can we.

Indeed, so why* start this thread? It wasn't started by saying "US system is great, all others suck".








* I know WF it wasn't you and I have great respect for SB, but it is all the other attacks on US system that are wearing. We tried to explain why our system is good (to us) and all we get is a put-down and reasons why yours is better. When we (must) go to Europe we put up with what seem to us, silly rules and laws. When you come here accept that this is the way we like things.

Two's in
8th Aug 2010, 19:29
Lon,

Initial thought was this thread was titled "USA Retaliates"
Second thought, not so far wide of the mark

Not really, this started by the OP saying how irrational (to him) the sales tax was in the US, All that happened was a few people who had some broader experience of paying US tax provided a more balanced view. Then we got into the usual "George Bush ate my hamster stuff".

It actually reduces down to Soulman's point;

GF, they are not control freaks, they just know what is good for you, beter than you do, and want to make sure you benefit from their vast knowledge. It's also called socialism

If you are quite happy for a bunch of (largely unelected) power crazed mental pygmies in London and Brussels to tell you how your share of your personal wealth should be redistributed to those who didn't work hard in school, then stay in Europe and pay your monstrous rates of tax. if on the other hand you want to decide where you spend your money, live in the US.

Those people who are not burdened by great intellects, and can't figure out how much of their own money they should give to the EU, shouldn't feel bad about despotic little tyrants who couldn't be trusted with a dog on a leash doing it for them. That's how great Socialist Empires are constructed, ask Kim Jong-il or Enver Hoxha.

wings folded
8th Aug 2010, 19:34
Soul etc.

If you are happy with your way of things, all the better for you. I would never for a moment suggest that you change. Just bear in mind, and this may be directed at other posters than you, that customs, practices, values do differ from one place to another.

A poster who decides that a rate of taxation at whatever percent is punitive, without any regard for what is rendered from that taxation does not command my respect. I need better logic.

Other

SoulManBand
8th Aug 2010, 19:43
A poster who decides that a rate of taxation at whatever percent is punitive, without any regard for what is rendered from that taxation does not command my respect. I need better logic.

Other

As stated earlier, those are opinions, to which all are entitled. Living in jurisdictions that support those opinions, reinforces the owners validity of them. Socialist live in jurisdictions where no amount of tax is considered punitive, capitalists live where taxation is monitored by vigilant citizens.

wings folded
8th Aug 2010, 20:00
As stated earlier, those are opinions, to which all are entitled. Living in jurisdictions that support those opinions, reinforces the owners validity of them. Socialist live in jurisdictions where no amount of tax is considered punitive, capitalists live where taxation is monitored by vigilant citizens.



those are opinions, to which all are entitled


Yes indeed


Socialist live in jurisdictions where no amount of tax is considered punitive, capitalists live where taxation is monitored by vigilant citizens.


Carry on with that belief. You belong in a different age.

People live where they live. They hold different views from yours, or perhaps the same. Views in concordance with the regime in place where they are. Or maybe not.

Capitalists live in your punitive taxation hell, and socialists live in your well monitered vigilante scociety

ExSp33db1rd
10th Aug 2010, 02:08
To all who responded - thank you, and I can follow most of the arguments for and against, but I'm on holiday, I'm not shipping goods Intra-State, or shopping from a Walmart catalogue, I would just like to know that if I see an Ice Cream, or cup of coffee priced at say $2.50 or $1.75, that is what I will pay. I invariably have the change in my hot sticky paw, and to have to fiddle around, changing hands, counting out coins is just an unneccessary annoyance and it catches me every time !

The local retailers can rig their cash registers and bar codes with no problem, to spit out a tax receipt that shows all the various bits, as has been said. At any given location it doesn't vary day to day. ( until there is a change of Govt. local, or national )

And no, it's not just a case of adding 10%, in this town alone it's 9.75% and different up the road. ( OK, that's near enough 10, but that's not the point )

Cheers, the beach calls. ( and 300 Mill. Americans aren't going to change for me ! )

ExS.

con-pilot
10th Aug 2010, 02:22
I would just like to know that if I see an Ice Cream, or cup of coffee priced at say $2.50 or $1.75, that is what I will pay.

Not in the US. The tax is added on the purchase of any said item. However, on large purchases, such as home, vehicles or other high cost items the tax will be figured in before you make the purchase so that you know the total amount that you will be paying.

With today's modern cash registers in the US, at the vast majority of establishments, it is very simple to ask the employee of the establishment what the the total price will be including tax.

To me the best system would be a combination of both the EU style and the US. That would be that the posted item's price did include the tax, however, on the price tag it is clearly explained just what percentage is tax and by what tax authority.

But, I'm not going to hold my breath until that happens on either side of the pond. :p

Um... lifting...
10th Aug 2010, 13:58
And no, it's not just a case of adding 10%, in this town alone it's 9.75% and different up the road. (OK, that's near enough 10, but that's not the point)

Go to New Hampshire. NO sales tax on most things, to include ice cream, tenpenny nails, and automobiles.

A small ice cream at Bailey's Bubble is $2.75 (I've never had the courage to order a medium or up, since a small is the size of an infant's head), pay $3, get a quarter back, throw it in the tip cup... or not, as you choose.:ok:

ExSp33db1rd
15th Aug 2010, 20:56
....Go to New Hampshire. NO sales tax on most things


My point exactly, it all varies from point to point, but at any given outlet at any given time, it is FIXED - so why not display this on the price tag, along with all the other garbage that some might want to know, I don't in this instance, I just want to decide if I want to spend that amount of cash at that time, put my hand in my pocket and slap down the right change, instead I have to change hands, get more change, find myself one cent short, change hands, find wallet, extract dollar bill, get vast amount of shrapnel back - just WHAT is the point ( I know, con the customer into thinking they are getting a bargain )

I'll go away now,

Thanks !!

off centre
16th Aug 2010, 01:02
I know, con the customer into thinking they are getting a bargain )



So you were willing to purchase said item before taxes were added. But not afterwards. A lesson there, perhaps unintentionally.

Also, having had this happen more than once, it would seem prudent to have "the extra," even if not quite knowing exactly how much extra, ready to hand, instead of the digging for more dance you so aptly described, no?

barit1
17th Aug 2010, 00:33
Sales tax is not a foregone conclusion, in many cases. In my jurisdiction carryout meals are not taxed, nor are groceries. A soft drink or milkshake (i.e. frappe) is not taxed. It all depends on what merchant group has the most lobbying power.

In the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, the tax on restaurant meals is called the "old age tax", ostensibly to provide relief to senior citizens.

reynoldsno1
17th Aug 2010, 01:25
I am not an American. I lived in MI for a few years. I got used to the sales tax thingy. It was no big deal. It reminds you that you are paying tax. Nothing more to see here ... move along.