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Spunky Monkey
4th Aug 2010, 19:50
There has been a great deal of news in the last 48 hours on UK TV about the floods in Pakistan.

The UK has sent 2000 tents, some toilets and sanitary equipment.

I have a great deal of sorrow for the individuals in the affected areas.

However I have some questions.

Every year 10 times the figure drown in Bangladesh, yet the media pays little attention.

There doesn't seem to be too much international aid at the moment. Is that because the Swat valley last year was a serious stronghold / recruitment area for the Taliban.

Do we really care about what happens in Pakistan? After all when the Prime Minister accuses people in the country for looking both ways.

They can afford to have nukes, yet every year they get aid from the West.

Are we ignoring the problem at our folly, or would it be good hearts and minds to help these people, to show that the West isn't all conquering and remove support for the Taliban / Extremists?

rgbrock1
4th Aug 2010, 19:53
We can help these people all we want and we'd still be the evil Infidels.

flying lid
4th Aug 2010, 21:52
Allah knows many ways ..........................

Lid

G-CPTN
4th Aug 2010, 21:54
This might be thread drift, but haven't there been significant floods in China (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-10794014)?

Tankertrashnav
4th Aug 2010, 21:56
Until 2 years ago when I closed my shop I did business with a supplier in Sialkot, Pakistan, up near the Kashmir border. I found him an honest and reliable businessman, and I looked forward to his very formal letters, and his occasional telephone calls. I used to be somewhat ashamed at the huge mark-up I was able to put on his prices, but I thought, if its good enough for Nike....

Now having seen the tv coverage I can only hope he and his family are ok. There is a small local charity near me which specialises in putting help in directly on the ground after events such as this (the Tsunami, Haiti, and, dare I mention it , Katrina) and I will certainly be making a modest donation to them.

rgbrock1
5th Aug 2010, 18:49
Oh my. Look what the lowly U.S. infidels have done now:

U.S. Army choppers flew their first relief missions in Pakistan's flood-ravaged northwest Thursday, airlifting hundreds of stranded people to safety from a devastated tourist town and distributing emergency aid.
Four U.S. Chinook helicopters landed in the resort town of Kalam in the Swat Valley, which has been cut off for more than a week, according to an Associated Press reporter there. They flew hundreds of people — many of them vacationing there — to safer areas lower down, he said. The northwest valley is a former Pakistani Taliban stronghold.

A U.S. Embassy spokesman said 800 people were evacuated and relief goods distributed.

1DC
5th Aug 2010, 20:11
Many years ago i went to sea for a living and our crew's came from NW Frontier province, they were good hard working blokes loyal to the ship and as far away from terrorism as i was, although i suppose some of their kids will be trying to shoot some of my kids now. I am sorry that they have been brainwashed into such a radical brand of Islam because it certainly wasn't there 40 years ago.
After the Pakistan earthquake, our Rotary club shook tins and raised £6000 over a weekend and the only people we couldn't get money out of were the Pakistani's themselves, they pretended not to understand. I suppose for that reason we won't do it again but i will make a donation if i am asked.

G-CPTN
5th Aug 2010, 20:17
And who takes their cut before it gets to the disaster?
(and I'm not restricting this to Pakistan - I'm sure that there are 'professional' collectors who rush into action whenever anything like this happens)

Bruce Wayne
5th Aug 2010, 20:43
Until 2 years ago when I closed my shop I did business with a supplier in Sialkot, Pakistan, up near the Kashmir border. I found him an honest and reliable businessman, and I looked forward to his very formal letters, and his occasional telephone calls. I used to be somewhat ashamed at the huge mark-up I was able to put on his prices, but I thought, if its good enough for Nike....

Now having seen the tv coverage I can only hope he and his family are ok. There is a small local charity near me which specialises in putting help in directly on the ground after events such as this (the Tsunami, Haiti, and, dare I mention it , Katrina) and I will certainly be making a modest donation to them.

TTN,

you could always send a letter asking if he and his family are ok and let him know your thoughts are with him.

i'm sure that would be very much appreciated.

G-CPTN
5th Aug 2010, 20:53
I can't see a letter getting much priority when there's several metres of water isolating settlements . . .

sitigeltfel
5th Aug 2010, 20:54
Allah will take care of them all.

That's the trouble with Gods. They crap on their believers and still expect adulation and respect.

rgbrock1
5th Aug 2010, 20:57
Yes, but it's when they don't receive their share of respect and adulation that all hell breaks loose, eh?!!!!! :ok::}

Bruce Wayne
5th Aug 2010, 21:46
G-CPTN, it seems to have an intl. airport and everything..

maybe a communication would take time, but the thought would still be appreciated i am sure..


i'm so interested to know what TTN was importing from there !:confused:

G-CPTN
5th Aug 2010, 23:54
Sialkot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sialkot#Economy_and_Industry)

G-CPTN
6th Aug 2010, 18:11
Just heard on the Beeb that some flooded regions are 40 kms away from the nearest river . . .

According to the federal flood commission, 1.4m acres (557,000 hectares) of crop land has been flooded across the country and more than 10,000 cows have perished.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/world/10/pakistan_floods_2/img/pakistan_floods_01_464.gif

TURIN
7th Aug 2010, 00:31
Perhaps if they stopped developing balistic missile systems, nuclear weapons and other frippery I would be more inclined to dig deep, but I can't help feeling that I would be perpetuating a problem, not helping. :sad:

7x7
7th Aug 2010, 04:09
It will be interesting to see how much the Taliban activity in Afghanistan reduces over the next month or two.

Al Fakhem
7th Aug 2010, 10:59
At least their scum bag President has got his priorities right: enjoying wining and dining in London, while his people are up to their necks in water.

Tankertrashnav
7th Aug 2010, 14:37
Why not just suspend US humanitarian aid altogether?

We can't afford it anymore and it just seems to annoy the recipients and Europeans more than they already are


Fair enough, Band Aide, and next time there's a hurricane down in New Orleans I'll advise my local charity Shelterbox not to send help as it may be likely to annoy the recipients.

ShelterBox: - Resources (http://www.shelterbox.org/resources_profile.php)

Good idea Bruce, I did try a phone call but predictably it didnt get through.

Gainesy
7th Aug 2010, 16:42
Allah knows many ways

He's got satnav?

chiglet
8th Aug 2010, 23:19
more than 10,000 cows have perished.

What has that got to do with the price of fish? AFAIK, the Pakistanis don't eat beef.....:confused:

Shack37
8th Aug 2010, 23:31
What has that got to do with the price of fish? AFAIK, the Pakistanis don't eat beef



I thought it was the Indian Hindus who held cows sacred therefore didn't eat beef.

Tankertrashnav
8th Aug 2010, 23:32
AFAIK? :confused: Totally wrong! :ugh:

Correct Shack37 The majority of the population is Muslim with a fair number of Christians. I assume you know Christians can eat beef but so can Muslims, as long as it is slaughtered in an approved manner, in which case it is called 'Halal' - a similar term to 'Kosher' in the Jewish religion.

It's Hindus who dont eat beef - and they predominate in India, not Pakistan.

Me, I eat it all - yum :ok:

Shack37
8th Aug 2010, 23:39
Me, I eat it all - yum


Me too and I wouldn't say no to a toasted bacon buttie either.

Apologies for the thread drift:oh:

jcbmack
8th Aug 2010, 23:43
for the presidency of Pakistan... no but seriously we help them due to geo-political considerations... what can Bangladesh do for the US or UK? It is a shame we do not help countries due to the kindness of our own hearts but that is what certain non-profit organizations are for I think.

N707ZS
8th Aug 2010, 23:52
10,000 cows gone that will help with the greenhouse gases. Will they get carbon credits?

notmyC150v2
9th Aug 2010, 01:39
I'm impressed at how the flooding stops at the border. Maybe if the Indians and Indian Administered Kashmir let some water accross there wouldn't be such a problem for the Pakis... :ouch:

BombayDuck
9th Aug 2010, 02:57
There has been enough flooding on the Indian side of the border, with 150 dead and 200 missing, thankyouverymuch.

Effluent Man
9th Aug 2010, 14:14
I accept all the criticisms on this subject.I still dropped my change in the bucket at the supermarket checkout yesterday.I hope it doesn't end up with Al Quaida.

Gainesy
9th Aug 2010, 17:20
Did anyone hear that Jane Fonda was going to get involved or did I dream it?:confused:

El Grifo
9th Aug 2010, 22:10
Not being famous for the tolerance of "control freak religions", I find myself being forced to ask the question " If everything is allah's will" then how does that square with what is going on in Pakistan.

How do the devotees react ?

Not a glib question, just an attempt to find out how it actually works on the ground when reality bites. You know, when something big really and undeniable actually happens.

Fair question really !

tony draper
9th Aug 2010, 22:21
The Clerics will tell them it is a punishment for adopting western ways such as not buying junior a AK47 for his tenth birthday.

BombayDuck
10th Aug 2010, 03:56
Not being famous for the tolerance of "control freak religions", I find myself being forced to ask the question " If everything is allah's will" then how does that square with what is going on in Pakistan.

Quite a few attempts at answers can be found in the (IMO) excellent Channel 4 documentary, Tsunami: Where was God? They interviewed everyone from Sri Lankan Buddhist monks, Tamil Hindu priests, Tamil Catholic priests, Indonesian Islamic Mullahs and up to good ol' Richard Dawkins. Not condescending and not preachy. It is not, unfortunately, available on their 4OD service, so I don't know how you could get hold of it.

Tankertrashnav
11th Aug 2010, 11:47
TTN,

you could always send a letter asking if he and his family are ok and let him know your thoughts are with him.

i'm sure that would be very much appreciated.



Bruce Just thought Id mention I had a phone call from him this morning and he and his family are all well. Sialkot has escaped but a lot of the surrounding area is devastated

Storminnorm
11th Aug 2010, 11:56
Apparently the view in Pakistan is that the flooding and it's
associated problems is a "test" sent by Allah to ascertain just
who has faith and who doesn't have faith.
That's what my Pakistani mate told me anyhow.

hellsbrink
11th Aug 2010, 14:00
Apparently the view in Pakistan is that the flooding and it's
associated problems is a "test" sent by Allah to ascertain just
who has faith and who doesn't have faith.
That's what my Pakistani mate told me anyhow.

Same as you get bible-thumpers across the world saying that natural disasters are caused by the decadence and debauchery of the world we live in now.

It's hardly anything newsworthy.

G-CPTN
11th Aug 2010, 14:08
I had a phone call from him this morning and he and his family are all well. Sialkot has escaped
May Allah be praised! (or is it Durga?)

Gainesy
11th Aug 2010, 14:20
natural disasters are caused by the decadence and debauchery of the world we live in now.


Well, they have Sindh yer know.

WorkingHard
21st Aug 2010, 08:45
I am saddened by the conditions in Pakistan and hope the rains soon cease for all those affected. I am also bewildered by the apparent huge discrepancies in aid being given. The western countries in general has been very generous but it does seem that other countries with predominantly the same religion and very wealthy are much less willing. Is my perception wrong? Am I missing something?

Rollingthunder
21st Aug 2010, 09:07
No, you're right, something is going on. The Pakistani community here in Canada has raised the princely sum of $20,000.

prospector
21st Aug 2010, 09:28
" western countries in general has been very generous but it does seem that other countries with predominantly the same religion and very wealthy are much less willing".

I am suprised that you are bewildered, is this not the norm???

BlueWolf
21st Aug 2010, 09:42
I'm looking forward to the outpouring of gratitude and appreciation towards the United States, from her usual detractors here, for supplying aid and flying it in, in the way that she has been since the beginning, where no-one else has.

Waiting......

Juud
21st Aug 2010, 09:56
Using the utter misery of millions to try and score a political point?
Hmm.

Could this have any relation at all you think? GNP per capita (http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/infopays/rank/PNBH2.html)

Also, Google this PDF: Pakistan Aid Factsheet 1995-2009 Trends in humanitarian assistance, and have a look. NB slide 5 and 6.

Low Flier
21st Aug 2010, 09:58
Yes, your perceptions are wrong, WorkinghHard.

Look at the facts.

Saudi Arabia, with a GDP of $619M, is giving $65M.
The US, with a GDP which is some 23 times greater, is giving only $157M.

Proportionately, if the US were to match Saudi Arabia's $65M in GDP terms, the US would be giving $1.5Bn in aid to the victims of the floods in Pakistan.

20,000,000 of our fellow human beings have been devastated by this flood.

We, as individuals, can help.

One worthwhile way of helping is to chip in to the cost of providing tents and tools for the survivors to help them to start to rebuild their broken lives.

There's an admirable charity doing exactly that and I'm sure they'd appreciate whatever money you feel you can spare to help them.

Here's a glimpse of what ShelterBox (http://www.shelterbox.org/about.php?page=9) is about:

m4-YwPpIlE4

Tempsford
21st Aug 2010, 09:59
Hats off to the US Forces, great job, as always, but why do I feel always feel that the US Government only makes such moves because it is as much in their interests to do so as it is for the cause to which they offer support?

BlueWolf
21st Aug 2010, 12:01
With respect, rubbish.

There are plenty of countries with oodles of dosh, and many of them share a faith with Pakistan, who are contributing bu&&erall and doing squat, because they don't give a 5h1t about other humans, and because despite their wealth they are a bunch of disorganised heathens who don't have the means or infrastructues to help anyway.

And the US does, and it is, and still it gets criticised. I mean what the hell does America have to do, or not do, to get things right in the eyes of some people? Imagine if the world relied on China, or the Islamic world, or the UN (which America funds and organises and provides manpower for anyway) or worse still, Europe, to organise things and get things done in times of disaster. Where would we be? Up a flooded river without a paddle, that's where.

Lay off the Yanks. They're the only ones actually doing anything useful, and they can do so because they have the means and the people and the equipment, which they maintain in times of peace at their own expense and to the benefit of everyone else. And if they can do this because of their wealth, then why do they have this wealth where no-one else does? Maybe because they got off their ar5e5 and worked for it. All humans crawled out from under the same rock in Africa at the same time however many millenia ago it was, and the people who evolved into Americans are not genetically different from the rest. There is no excuse for the rest of humanity to be a bunch of useless whiners by comparison, and no excuse for bagging the Yanks for being at the top of the pile.

For crying out f**king loud.

:*

Tempsford
21st Aug 2010, 13:41
Blue wolf, the US looks at areas of maximum impact with regard to where and what they do and will focus on those areas as it will benefit their overall strategy.
Do you not think that in order to 'curry' favour, to take swift positive action in Pakistan will possibly serve in their best interests for a positive impact in relation to the sitautaion in Afghanistan and American/Pakistan relations? Do you also not think that possibly the US are giving direct aid rather than run the risk of monetary support falling into the 'wrong' hands?

Temps

Matari
21st Aug 2010, 14:06
Tempsford,

the US looks at areas of maximum impact with regard to where and what they do and will focus on those areas as it will benefit their overall strategy. And the same couldn't be said for the UK, EU, Saudi, etc?

Bluewolf, careful mate you'll incur the wrath of the peanut gallery here...

Tempsford
21st Aug 2010, 14:13
Matari,

Most certainly.

Temps

glad rag
21st Aug 2010, 15:28
Maybe they could freeze buying f16's and making nuclear bombs for a couple of months and SORT THEIR OWN COUNTRY OUT themselves?

G-CPTN
21st Aug 2010, 16:15
If so much of the territory is now under water, what of places such as airports and military bases?

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48812000/gif/_48812120__48777537_pakistan_floods_06_464-1.gif

boftr
21st Aug 2010, 16:19
Using the utter misery of millions to try and score a political point?
Hmm.



But no comment about the other political points attempted in this very thread?
Hmm indeed.

WhatsaLizad?
21st Aug 2010, 18:49
Hats off to the US Forces, great job, as always, but why do I feel always feel that the US Government only makes such moves because it is as much in their interests to do so as it is for the cause to which they offer support?


You feel that way because you're basically a whiny arse that is throwing fecal clumps at the US since you know deep down that your own country is probably impotent in providing any meaniful support while the US, the country you've been programmed from school to be the fault of everything, seems to handle these problems worldwide.

Perhaps you could name the list of disasters that the US did not offer help and aid? Remember the earthquake in Iran? USAF C-130's flying tents into Iran. after a two week honeymoon we were the great Satan once again according to the mullahs.

Remember the Indonesian Tsunamis? Before them, the US along with any Christians were unwelcome Infidels in Banda Aceh (as well as for rebel reasons also). US military helos flew an aid tonnage surpassing everybody. What were our interest there? Oil, tourism, industry, fishing or just help for our fellow man? I remember the UN with a ballyhooed press conference detailing their aid efforts post Tsunami. Not one word about the US effort was mentioned, even during bragging about the tonnage of aid being sent on a French ship, which was going to take weeks to arrive, and just so happened to equal the tonnage flown daily by US helos every day. By the time the ship arrived, the US helos dropped 30 times the UN amount.

My personal opinon is that if the Pakistanis hadn't wasted so much material on "DIE USA" signs and the burning of US flags, they'd have the material to make a million tents. Too bad for them some of us have a memory.

SASless
21st Aug 2010, 19:49
I wonder what "Caledonia" is contributing?

I will use an example here......

The UK has a GDP about one seventh that of the United States....lessee....if we divide the US military presence and other American contributions by one seventh....that makes the UK share to be what?

Care to spell that out for us Low Flyer?

From the UK Government.....

ISLAMABAD: British Development Secretary Andrew Mitchell on Friday announced that the UK intends to double its aid contribution for the floods in Pakistan to 64 million pounds (more than Rs 8.5 billion).

According to the British High Commission, the UK will make available an additional 33 million pounds (about Rs 4.5 billion) in aid. This is in addition to the 31 million pounds (just over Rs 4 billion) already allocated to the flood disaster by the UK government.

Speaking in New York, Andrew Mitchell said, “The UK is already helping more than three million people in flood-affected areas in Pakistan. This doubling of our aid should now provide water and sanitation to 500,000 people; shelter to 170,000 people; help meet the nutritional needs of 380,000 people and provide enough health services to cover a population of 2.4 million people.”

The secretary of state made clear that more UK support would only be given to non-governmental agencies and UN agencies when they were confident it would help the people of Pakistan access desperately needed medicine, food, clean water and shelter.

I could also do a comparison for France, Germany, The Netherlands, Norway, and perhaps Lichenstein or Monaco too I guess. But....I prefer to use the UK simply as this is a UK based web site and a majority of the posters here at JB tend to be British.

Since when do we really care about who is giving their "fair" share.....in times of great human tragedy? Just once....I would enjoy reading a post by Low Flyer where he/she/it....merely applauds all who are helping....and simply encourages everyone to do as much as they can. It would be a refreshing change from the habitual harrangue we get as he/she/it criticizes anything American.

I would suppose in the goal to reduce the internecine strife over UK/USA issues LF might consider comparing Saudi contributions to those of Kuwait, Yemen, Bahrain, Indonesia, Libya, Syria, Iran, and perhaps Brunei instead of the USA. After all....they are all Muslim nations and are much closer to Pakistan geographically than we are here in the United States.

We all know the United States shows up at these kinds of disasters and does so as a routine matter of policy....which means we do not do so selectively but do so contingent to the avalability of resources that can be applied.

Marine Corps personnel and equipment are leaving my area as we speak to head for Pakistan.....the Air Force is flying the CH-53's to Afghanistan and they will be put back together and dispatched to Pakistan as soon as possible. It is a very long way from Camp LeJeune North Carolina to Pakistan LF.....give us a bit of credit for this.